Dan Gable: Olympic Wrestling, Mental Toughness & the Making of Champions | Lex Fridman Podcast #152

the following is a conversation with dan. gable from two years ago. i did not previously publish this. conversation as part of this podcast. but as a separate thing and as a result. it did not receive many listens. let me be honest and say that while i. usually don't care about how many. listens reviews something gets. in this one case i feel like i've failed. one of my heroes i feel i didn't. properly introduce a truly special human. being to an audience that might find him. as inspiring as i did.

dan gable is one of the greatest olympic. athletes of all time bigger than records. and medals to many like myself he's a. symbol of guts spirit mental toughness. and relentless hard work. as a wrestler he was undefeated in high. school undefeated in college until his. very last match and having lost that. match he found another level and became. a world champion and an olympic champion. and most importantly he did so.

perfectly dominating his opponents he. did not surrender a single point at the. 1972 olympic games. as a coach he led the iowa hawkeyes to. 15 national titles and 25 consecutive. big ten championships he coached 152. all-americans 45 national champions 106. big ten champions and 12 olympians. including eight medalists he's the. author of several books including. wrestling life 1 and 2 and coaching.

wrestling successfully. quick mention of our sponsors trial labs. a machine learning company expressvpn. grammarly writing helper tool. and simply save home security. so the choice is ai privacy grammar or. safety choose wisely my friends and if. you wish click the sponsor links below. to get a discount and to support this. podcast. as a side note let me say that i spent a. few days in iowa and got to attend a. wrestling duel meet in the historic.

carver hawkeye arena part of me wanted. to stay in iowa forever to drill. takedowns to start a family to live life. simply. wrestling is one of the pure sports both. beautiful and brutal. where both mental toughness and. technical mastery of the highest form. are rewarded with victory and everything. else is punished with defeat. and every such loss weighs heavy on the. minds of anyone who has ever stepped on. the wrestling mat including myself.

the same is true for one of the greatest. wrestlers in history of the sport the. man who graciously welcomed me into his. home for this conversation the legend. dan gable. if you enjoy this thing subscribe on. youtube review it on apple podcast. follow on spotify support on patreon or. connect with me on twitter lex friedman. and now here's my conversation with dan. gable. you're persistent i love that because. you've been trying to get me on this. podcast for a long time.

and until i saw you. on another podcast. and you said you were russian. did i call you back then it was over. because russia to me you know is leading. the world in wrestling. almost every year what's the difference. between american wrestling and russian. wrestling he showed me this painting. well it's mit it's science it's science. you know and. they they really study the sport they're. really good technically they're really. really good in strategy. they don't really push like.

the real toughness they don't push like. uh conditioning. right and so americans we need what they. have. russians need what we have. and if when they when you get to two. together and for me. why i could beat the russians is because. i went their way a little bit. but i i kept my toughness. but you're known you're you're known for. your toughness. yeah but i wasn't known for my art. i wasn't known for my science so when.

did you become a bit of an artist it. took a loss. delario most people thought i was. already. an artist just because i won 181. straight dominance in seven years and. not just winning but you know kind of. punishing people yes and from from that. point of view yeah it might have been. pretty good but i had a long ways to go. yet and i didn't really realize that or. i should have i should say. i didn't really know how to get it out. of me until i had a loss and then i. realized i gotta buckle down learn some.

of that science become more of an artist. how do you become an artist so. that the russian way has this. drilling technique. thousands of reps. how do you think. you work on the science the art part you. got to study the best in the world. i think dave schultz was our guy in. america that probably. showed us that. being artistic. you needed that and he studied it he.

went over there as a high schooler. and wrestled in some major tournaments. over there and he. saw their ways. he used that russian science and then he. was already an american and he saw what. how i trained athletes he saw what i did. in the olympics saw what other people. how he held up and he applied that as. well but. i'd have to say he was more the artistic. type he was more of a russian than an. american when it came to uh. uh wrestling.

you've coached 45 national champions 106. big ten champions and eight olympic. medalists. which is incredible. what is a common thread between them. and what are. maybe some of the fundamental. differences. i think the common thread is. that. they all had one of those two avenues. that we talked already. and because we intertwined them.

so in a russian wrestling room they got. the same people most the time in an. american wrestling room we had the same. people. but when i was out recruiting. at first i recruited just attitude. but i needed more than that i needed. some. genetics in that wrestling room. to actually. that hard work people. you know they could look and see. wow. that execution.

that's unbelievable. but yet i can beat that guy. after the first minute. so you think you think uh the art the. the technique is genetics you're born. with it you think it's not i think your. pop and your. you know your ability to move timing and. timing and. your quickness and your strength you. know the russians. they. usually picked out. the people that can go into that sport.

that was the old-fashioned sports school. but it's it's mostly like when you see. when you walk into a russian wrestling. room you see him hitting. skills techniques you know you don't see. them banging against each other that. much but then when practice is over you. might not see a bunch of sprints you. might see them walk over to the uh. the ropes and they drop down from the. ceiling and they'll jump up and climb a. rope boom boom boom and then they come. down and then they don't jump right back.

on they have three or four other guys go. and then they jump back on whereas. i probably made my guys climb them get. right back down climb them right back. again. but. i also realized that. i had to have a mix of that what was the. role what was your role i mean those. guys looked up and dan gable and. what was the role in helping these. athletes become their best these. national champions we had to first of. all prove that you were. knew what you were doing in terms of.

technique or in terms of everything. everything they just you had to be the. first guy there and the last guy to. leave and you had to be the most. dedicated guy even though they were the. ones that's trying to win the. championships uh you had to prove that. you were going to work just as hard as. they were as a coach and what does that. look like what so you can see it when. you you know when you see it well you. you're there ahead of them yeah and. you're there after they leave. you know it's that's it's that simple. i'm picking up after them and you're. analyzing them you out work them you out.

work them and you out thank them and so. you know use that type of strategy and. over time when you prove it works. because. some of my kids that were the best kids. in the world. really. shouldn't have been a wrestler i mean. they weren't very coordinated. yeah but they work so hard to develop. themselves. what was your role in that process i. mean that means pushing kids to their.

limit if if you're not going but you. can't push kids to their limit and even. when you push them to their limit that's. not their limit because their limits. above and beyond that right i mean yeah. coaches sometimes accidentally don't. they lose kids yeah. because of the heat because of hard work. and all that and you gotta you gotta. know where to when to back off. you got to read your athletes and. by that i mean you got to know them. pretty well every once in a while you. make a little bit of mistake but if you.

don't react right on that mistake before. it gets too far then it's going to be a. casualty and i don't mean somebody dying. necessarily but maybe something that. could turn them off or maybe something. that can run them away or maybe. something that. wow that was close i maybe shouldn't. have pushed him that far. so you really have to be very educated. and it's not just. what you know is what you know about. them and i'm not talking about the team. i'm talking about each guy individuals. yeah each person on the team and you you.

know it. how you see it now you know how because. you're the first one there and you're. the last one to leave and and you set in. the uh environment with them you're. there for in the morning for practice. sometimes you're there in the afternoon. for two or three hours after practice. you might have a. a hot room or you might have a sauna or. a steam or a whirlpool and you get in. there with them and you listen you know. you're not just feeding out information. you do that but you're taking in a lot.

of that too and i'm telling you when you. get in an atmosphere that they're. relaxed and they feel comfortable it's. like a massage. and that's after practice in one of. those areas that people are around you. you learn a lot i mean you got a lot to. learn as a coach. and when you get in that atmosphere when. all of a sudden you feel like very. comfortable. words start flowing. and when those words flow. you take them in as a coach and there's. something probably going to be said.

that you can do and act upon that's. going to help. certain situations i've saved a couple. kids lives for sure. that we're on the brink you know. sometimes performance is at such a high. level in a high level atmosphere. that. life and death is actually. involved and i don't mean pushing a kid. to where he just dies but i mean he. might feel himself as a failure then he. may go home and take his own life.

yeah i mean but that's part of it you're. putting. so much heart so much blood and heart. and sweat and every your whole meaning. of life becomes winning so and sometimes. it's so hard to lose within that context. so if if in your i think the first. wrestling life you wrote about chad. zappato who. lost i mean incredible wrestler but lost. in three finals in the nationals and has. this tattoo. of a uh hawk clawing out the human heart. yeah so what lessons is there any.

lessons from. the. incredible wrestling he's done but also. the incredible suffering that he went. through. on himself yeah again you like that word. suffering which is okay. okay no no no no no keep it keep it. because it fits right in where i want. yeah i have to turn that suffering. around. to where he makes him feels good about. himself. are better. does not feel perfect yeah because he. did lose yeah you know.

and so but you have to actually. get him to realize that yeah he's still. unique compared to the walk of the earth. he was unbelievably unique right at the. top just a little bit short of but. because it was. you know he felt the suffering. you now have to go about and change that. and put it into good will some way and. because he's you really have a lot of. good will you can do a lot of goodwill. and so. and it's not easy.

it took him probably. years. years of tattooing yeah. years of covering the tattoos. and. you know he told me moved to keller i go. why are you moving to california because. he was here for a couple years after. his wrestling was done because he had a. good job around here and he was i. thought he was doing a good job but he. he just. he said i had to escape you know it's. the same as the wrestling tattoo i had a. wrestling terminology i have to get. i hate to say this i hate to say this.

i go where are you going. he says i'm going to go to california. and i go is there any reason why you're. going to california. he says that's where. everybody goes to hide. but i said. i think you're wrong there but. you know i think what will determine. your life will be what you do from now. on you know and if you can and he's. actually turned it around i mean he's.

actually turned around you have to. discover that yourself exactly and he. went someplace that he thought. he could fit into. and i think he did and i think he's got. a good job and he's helping people and. uh. he covered that tattoo with uh feathers. uh another tattoo well in the end it's a. beautiful story yeah it is it really is. suffering and overcoming yeah and he's. not done yet he's not done yet no he's. not done he he's. got a lot more to do. so you mentioned roger bannister again i.

think in your first book. somebody you looked up to. that's the man who broke the four-minute. mile right. when everybody said it was impossible. everyone thought it was impossible. because he would die he would die it's. not human it's not human. yeah so what. well you've done your homework. for what the book or what i don't know. for me you've done your homework yeah i. know but yeah. [Laughter]. sent sent here by putin to do research. yeah. so what lesson do you take from that.

story for yourself the impossible trying. to accomplish the impossible well the. impossible is possible. it's just that simple. time changes things i mean. i mean if you look at what. where the mile time is right now. compared to that four minute mile. which when it was broke by a couple. tenths or three or four tenths. it's now broke by. uh another 20 seconds.

yeah i mean by 700 people yeah yeah i. mean by tons of people and it's pretty. much the common knowledge that you got. to run a four minute mile if you're. gonna go somewhere now or or below if. you're going to win win events. at major level you got to be able to do. that. and so you can take that and you can. look at what. in time history. has as its. record performance. and you can realize that. that record performance.

is going to change yeah. and and they don't take into all the. factors. of knowledge. they don't take in all the factors of. better shoes. they don't take in all the factors of. better understanding and nutrition. i mean it's like me as an athlete. i went to practice every day in high. school for. at least my sophomore in my junior and. part of my. senior year and all of a sudden.

a new rule came up. i said. the rule said um before that said. oh yeah. at least most of the coaches. uh you you we don't want you drinking. water at practice. yeah and. and okay why because you gotta toughen. you up that's a weakness water. and so we would go through practice i. mean and you're sweating and then you're. sweating so much that you're almost out. of sweat yeah and so.

you're mostly at the end of practice. you're not even wrestling excuse me. you're you're sitting against the wall. yeah because you're tired so then all of. a sudden. they say okay. go ahead drink water during practice. drink gratery during practice and all of. a sudden at the end of practice we're. still out there. competing and so i look at my career for. two and a half years where i end with. junior high too. so i got another three years. where i didn't really wasn't able to. push as good as i could because i just.

was probably under under hydrated yeah. yeah so what so but at the individual. level in terms of the impossible. when did you first believe. the thing that maybe probably people. would laugh at you about that you would. be in the. champion well i always. visualized me being the best you. believed it in the very forever forever. yeah i was because i was i don't think. you call it a dreamer or somebody that. i was just involved with competitive.

sports at the ymca from the from age. five. did you tell people that dream that. you're gonna be olympic champion one day. you can be the best in the world i think. they knew. and the only reason why they knew. because there was something a little. different about this guy. he was uh he's not gonna stop well he. was out in the yard. yeah and he was swinging baseball bats. yeah you know at six at seven and eight. at nine and ten. and he was swinging baseball bats. so much right-handed and so much left.

hand with nobody even there throwing the. ball yeah. that all of a sudden when they walked by. and they all of a sudden the grass was. down to dirt. on both sides. so it's like. they saw me on the yard. playing by myself sports. or you know. or you get the neighborhood kids you. play a lot but if they weren't there. you know if you walked in my front room. i was hiking a ball like i was the. quarterback and i was running not and. running through the through the.

furniture. you know that type stuff so. you know who who saw this guy mostly was. probably the parents yeah and the the. coaches at the ymca level the junior. high level they saw this guy come first. and and end up last but. i wasn't that great. i wasn't the fastest guy at that time. and i wasn't the strongest guy you know. actually before i went to the olympics. when they tested me they tested. everybody and i probably came back with. one of the highest scores but it was.

it was not like the highest. person on this and this and that i was. all high across the board straight. across the board high on every one of. them but there was always people that. were higher than genetics but then they. would go down yeah then they would test. on something else and go back up mine. stayed high all across the board and so. i you know i really didn't have too many. flaws but i didn't have any things that. also said that you were going to be.

unscored upon at the olympic games. right so take me through that day if you. could 1972 when you were going for the. 68 kilogram freestyle wrestling gold you. scored. 57 points if i'm correct and had zero. points scored on you. 57 0. so. maybe. uh take me through almost the details. what was your routine what was your. process what was going through your mind. your thoughts of that day yeah first of. all.

uh it was quite a day. because uh we weighed in every day. at that time in the morning and that and. that yeah we weighed in two hours before. the start of the competition. and so that didn't mean that you weighed. in two hours for your russell because. you didn't know whether you're gonna. wrestle right away or later on in fact. in that day i don't think i wrestled uh. until. later on in the evening so. had all day to recover but i didn't. really need it anyway because you know. it wasn't really. pulling a whole lot of weight but just. uh it was just interesting but what was.

in your mind what would what were you. thinking were you nervous were you i was. confident. i was confident you knew you were going. to win the gold yeah i knew i was going. to win uh but in reality you're i'm not. i didn't know it from a cocky point of. view i only knew it. because for the last. three and a half years. i've been going to practice. and i'd been winning every practice you. felt good and i i hardly ever lose a.

takedown and if i lost this if i. somebody scored on me. it was like. when i went to bed i couldn't sleep. until i. figured it out. or if i didn't figure it out i would. fall asleep. and i would be whoa i would wake up with. the answer of what i needed why i got. scored upon so maybe. now that you've won the gold can you. tell me in the practice room when. somebody took you down how how do you. take dan gable down in the in the. practice room timing very difficult but.

yes somebody could. because. they were going for one move. all i wanted was one move whereas you. know if you can arrest somebody and rest. in the whole practice or half of. practice for at least 10 15 minutes. and they were maybe gonna score. if they could work it in their mind. but they knew that was going to be their. victory so in the practice room. maybe you can educate me.

and that when you're going for the. olympic gold. it you didn't want to allow any. takedowns so there's no such thing as. working on some kind of weird position a. weak point or something it's important. to not let down the take down it's kind. of like what we're saying before if. something happened and somebody scored. on me in a certain way. i would go over that situation. over that situation over it again. and i would come up with an answer and. then i would actually test it.

maybe i wouldn't go right back the next. day because i didn't want the guy to. you know do not have some. i didn't want him to think that i was. thinking about it all night i didn't. tell him but maybe three days later when. he wrestled again. i uh actually had it figured out because. it it he wasn't able to. or even if i was in on to take. a a an offensive move and i got stopped. and didn't score. you know i had to go back and filter. that. but it wasn't something that.

usually i couldn't solve right i could. usually solve it let's go back to the. olympic games so i get up in the olympic. in the morning and i'm not sure when the. weigh-ins were but i think i was. probably a pound over. uh you know and that's about a half a. kilo and 1.1 pounds is a kilo because we. went in kilograms so what do you do with. that pond you're right. no i just i just went over to the they. had a sauna there and i got in the sauna. and the and the funny thing was the. morning of the of the.

of the finals. there was there was another athlete in. the sauna. and american or no it was a european. i didn't i don't remember where she was. from not a russian well you know what i. kind of think it was a plot. [Laughter]. because it was a girl interesting and. she didn't have her top on oh wow. [Laughter]. and that was pretty common and so you. know it's kind of interesting.

you you think back about it because. there's some funny things that. that go on. behind the scenes in olympic games in. world games anytime when you have. country against country and so there's. some crazy stuff mine goes on yeah did. any of it affect you. did you was there anything well i almost. stayed too long in the sun. you los you lost a little bit of i lost. a little more in a pound yeah. but uh but it didn't really bother me.

because i wasn't like. i wasn't like cutting a lot of weight so. so. your match against the russian the um. how's your life yeah jolietf he's went. on to be a two-time world champion a. silver medalist as well i mean this is. an incredible wrestler. so what was going through your mind. uh before stepping on the mat with that. guy you've beaten a bunch of wrestlers. haven't had a point scored on you. and you're stepping on the mat against. the russian who you said was really they. picked the soviets picked to beat you.

right and i know why they picked him. because he had a great attitude so he. wasn't just the typical artist. he was a good artist he he hooked elbows. like sad gelav and he's from that area. of the world where they have some of. those types of moves but he was and he. was a goer. but. by cutting him down a weight he lost. some of that go. and i don't know if you you got to. that's a process you got to go about. scientifically yeah you know and so you.

know if you don't do it as an american. it can really hurt your performance if. you don't do it as a a russian it can. hurt your performance and they already. didn't really. do that a lot where you usually wrestle. the weight where it was more like your. weight. and so by cutting him down you know. maybe slowed his. belief down a little bit you saw it in. him the spirit was a little bit gone. when you were facing yeah but then he. came back and he won you know rest of. the matches and he was in the round.

robin and he was able to go to the. finals. uh but he had lost another match. actually against in the round-robin. against the japanese so. i i think. i had already gained enough of artistic. being able to finish a match once i lost. my match in college for the last two. years i took on some of that artistic uh. work and i think that he was already. hoping to win. but he was hoping to win by a long ways. because.

he had to pin me or beat me by. eight points to be able to win the gold. and. uh you know that wasn't going to happen. i mean the chances of pin is pretty good. is it hard to pin down gable versus take. down. like have you taken risks where you. could pay for them. i can't remember too many that i took. uh that would actually put me in a. danger position i've taken risk but the. risks were so scientifically technically. correct that i wouldn't land in that.

danger. zone it's like if i'm going to lock up. and throw you i'm not going to throw you. to my own back and roll you through i'm. going to turn in the air. so you're scientific about it yeah. exactly i you know he just. i learned the hard way early on there. was moves from collegiate wrestling. that you did that exposed your shoulders. which. it cost me in some early freestyle. matches against great wrestlers. but. i would go back to my.

collegiate. escaping type moves to where i hit a. granby roll where you expose your. shoulders and you lose two points every. time but you learn that that's not the. system but if you hadn't wrestled much. you would get exposed under. maybe. a desperate situation you would hit it. so you won the gold how did it. feel. i think it would have i think the. question would be how would it feel if. you lost the gold. for me because. i already went through that once.

not at that highest level but the. national collegiate championship level. my senior year the larry owings law. larry owings yeah. and that didn't set well were you afraid. of that happening again at the olympic. level was that no i really wasn't but it. was why i changed my. philosophy of training and added to. the scientific artist type and i if i. had won that match even though i.

wouldn't have felt good about it even if. i. squeaked it out. i wasn't feeling good about that match. it would have affected me a little bit. but if i don't want it i would have got. over it i mean i'm not over it now yeah. i mean i don't know why i was doing this. kind of stuff right before my match yes. by by that i mean this kind of stuff. talking interviews oh yeah journalists. yeah and i really wasn't a good talker i. mean me and you were talking pretty good. right now except for i got a little cold. but but uh.

i don't think i could say two words. hardly then and. they took takes wide world of sports. says hey just. we want you to be the introduction for. our next week's show yeah so just say. hey i'm dan gable come watch me as i. finish my career undefeated 182.00. that's what they want me to say. everybody assumed you'd be undefeated. and i. said it i had to take it 22 times. and in the last two or three times they. wrote it out and i read it and it still. it wasn't like i just said it yeah i was. reading it like hi i'm.

dan gable. come. come up. you know that type of stuff so it and he. finally just closed the book and said. hey that's good enough. but i turned and it was my time to. wrestle. yeah and so. you know you just you learn that. and for me it was great coaching. experience. because that's what i turned into be you. know i coached for longer than i. wrestled yes and i put out a lot of. champions but you learn. through mistakes that even in your own.

career that you had made. you know it's it's a never learning. process it's an ever learning process. have you ever been afraid on the map. does fear have any role do you think. for a wrestler or it must be well i'm. sure fear is out there and i'm sure that. was to my advantage almost every time. i'm sure in my olympic finals as really. if he had these doubts he probably had. these doubts. and that gave gives me the the edge.

and i don't know if i really ever. had fear. but. obviously there was points and times. where i didn't perform as well not many. but a. few and if i look back of it look back. at it i don't think it was that. american you know raw raw raw stuff i. think it was. probably the fear of uh.

not being an artist as much you know. maybe this guy might be better than me. uh scientifically. and uh you know you're a scientist i. think that got to me more than anything. else i i said early on that i want to. eliminate ever having to worry about. getting tired in a match. so i kind of eliminated that so i got. rid of that point and i do think that in. wrestling that is one of the fears. that a lot of wrestlers have actually.

how they feel during the match and and. do they get are they going to get tired. and and is it going to affect my. performance. and as a coach that really was one of. the things i tried to eliminate on all. my athletes so there wasn't that fear. factor but that fear factor would be. put upon my opponent which would give me. an edge. uh but that's not what i needed as much. i need to just focus make sure that i. was doing the right things and i needed. my team to be focused so i made sure.

that for my mistakes as an athlete or. even as a coach sometimes that i didn't. repeat them. didn't repeat them and if you make a. mistake once and then you can repeat it. then it's like. you didn't learn anything. your goal throughout your wrestling. career as you've beautifully put was to. work so hard that you pass out on the. mat right that you would be carried off. the mat so you never did successfully in. that's one of the ways you failed in. your careers you've never worked so hard. that you've passed out.

have you ever come close do you remember. a time you've come close you've been. pushed to the limits of exhaustion you. know the question is really a good. question about that pushing to you. collapse yeah because i don't as a coach. today i don't think i could. if i said that to my athletes. i don't know i could get in trouble. because you know it's understood isn't. it. by the athletes. yeah they understand it. but the outside might not understand it.

because it's almost like what do you. mean they're you push them to the point. where they go. collapse that means they may die or that. something might happen to them. and you know that's dangerous that's. dangerous we can't have our kid in that. type of atmosphere but. it's something that's highly unlikely. that's going to happen but i'm going to. tell you there's many times in a. practice where i had pushed myself to. all of a sudden. the whistle blew or it was time to stop. and when i got up off the mat or.

wherever i was at and i. needed water. i need. i needed fresh air. because you're usually in a fairly small. room with a lot of guys that the heat. rises. and you know it's hard to breathe. and that i can remember and i stayed a. lot of times not by the door the far end. of the room i can remember walking from. the far end of the room to that door and. i can remember am i going to make it the. next step. am i going to make it the next step i. need air i need water i need oxygen i.

need to get out of here. it didn't happen often but i can cut. recount four or five times in my career. that i pushed myself to that level where. i thought i was gonna maybe. go out but. every step i was dizzy. but once i got to that door i was able. to open it and go out yeah and grab the. water and get cold water in my face and. so no i never really was able to do that. and i think the story is in a book where. my. my daughter pushed a collapse molly he.

made you proud oh my gosh you know she. didn't win yeah. but she pushed her collapse yeah now. did she. suffer because of that. well she didn't get to go to the next. event because she didn't she had to. qualify but. i think it. probably helped her too realizing. because she was wood in the race and she. was beating people she normally never. pushed but she was at a new level that. she had never been before and she only. needed about five feet to finish and it. was just one of those things that.

i bet there was a lot of learning that. she did there and uh it probably. made her realize that. she could be better but she had to hold. up though. so you mentioned in wrestling life that. the brand's brothers. looked up to. royce alger who was known for pushing. the limits of physical wrestling. but not getting too rough so how do you. find the line between extreme physical. wrestling but at the same time not rough. wrestling or angry wrestling so that.

line between aggression tough wrestling. and anger well i think anger. would cause. less successful wrestling i think anger. would cause you to make mistakes and. actually get out of position. because i think anger is kind of a loss. of control. and. there can be a furious type of. attack.

but i think if it crosses the line to. anger. then you're going to be vulnerable. and so. royce. and the brands. wrestled. to the edge. through the edge but when the whistle. blew. they stopped and there's people that. when the whistle blows they keep going. it's like in a football game. a fight breaks out and it's after the.

whistles blow. well when the whistle blew. they they backed off. so that whistle. was. something that in a match. that that kind of. gave them the boundaries. but perhaps it could be a little bit of. fuel so in wrestling tough the book that. you just got from mike chapman uh the. new addition talks about bill cole. undefeated northern iowa wrestler. and. uh how he talked about.

how my strength speed and ability to. think were increased tremendously by. just sitting apart from the action prior. to the match. and getting into a state of controlled. anger. so. can anger trolling controlled yeah. so anger could be fuel as long as it's. controlled right exactly you have that. line. one side of the line you can have an. anger. for performance and the other side of. the line. you.

if you go beyond that it's not going to. be for performance it's going to be for. not performance because you're gonna. lose points. it's a fine line there's definitely a. fine line. you're talking about roy selger you're. talking about tom brands you're talking. about terry brands i mean you got world. championship titles there you got. olympic championship title there you got. a world silver medalist in uh. in uh and roy selger. and you know and that that's what when i. talk to him about the world silver. medalist.

he's haunted by that because he was. actually 20 seconds away from winning. when he got beat in the end there but. that's part of the game. and. it's i don't know whether he's okay with. it or not because he says every after. talking about things he goes. i'm okay with it now. but then he keeps talking about it. so i don't really think he's okay with. it. and i it's it's hard for him to actually. make amends to himself.

when you really don't do it i mean it's. no matter what the situation even with. the owings loss yeah. it still eats i mean yeah i'm a world. champion he's not. and he wanted to be i'm olympic champion. he's not he wanted to be one of the. greatest coaches of all time yeah yeah. yeah and so you know so he. you know it's like. why do i keep going back to it because. because you're not you don't get over. those things so royce really keeps going.

back to it even though he says he's fine. and he and. but then he realizes he's really not. fine because that's just the nature of. the game and that's why he was able to. win national titles and and make uh. world teams and and stuff like that uh. you know even if what's interesting. about him he's analyzed all the people. that he's wrestled and a lot of them. have won world and olympic championships. and he's beaten every one of them at one. time or another and he didn't get to. that world championship gold or a.

limping cold. and. that i. i he says it because. they did it so he show he's showing. people that. that i beaten those guys yeah. but apparently he didn't beat him at the. right time. and. so it still haunts him you don't get. away from that stuff i mean it's just. like anything in life that's. really high. i mean it doesn't have to be athletics.

i mean you think i'm ever going to get. over uh. the murder of my sister. and you might not even know that let me. pause for a second please you've talked. about it you've written about it. so i hope it's okay for me to say that. your sister your older sister. on may 31 1964. was. raped and murdered by a local boy. so the echoes of pain and anger from. that tragic day. do they ripple through your life still.

through your wrestling through your. coaching through your the way you when. you wake up in the morning what is that. like. it can be very emotional to me. under certain circumstances. and. it can be. the mood i'm in right. you know it can be. maybe if i've had a mountain dew or or. maybe if i've had a gable beer yeah yeah. or or or. uh.

or maybe if you turn the country music. up a little bit loud. you know it emotions come out. and everybody has them. in their life. it just so happens. you know what brings it out and. hopefully it's nothing that you do to. the extreme point of to where it brings. it out for me it's not extreme i don't. have to have any of that really i can. get emotional. how did that change you as a man.

what it did was realize that i was. already. pretty well developed because i was only. a sophomore 15 years old in high school. and. i had parents that weren't making it and. my parents are a lot older than me. and now that we're down just to me and. my parents. and i'm going to be around the house for. another two years. and they had just lost a a daughter that.

was the only only other. sibling. they weren't handling it they they were. the ones that were suffering much more. than me. even though. i always. look back upon one area that i wasn't. good at was communication at that time. except inside the wrestling room. because i had been tipped off. and tipped off what do you mean. well the neighbor boy said that. something to me about my sister just.

three weeks before that that's right. that really. wasn't. normal or practical. and i said nothing to nobody you. you don't. is there a part of you that blames. yourself. yeah. absolutely. absolutely. but i'm 15 years old and. you make mistakes. uh and you don't really act on. everything. that happens in your life.

but i can tell you how it affected me. and i acted a lot on. anything that maybe wasn't even of that. consequence i mean because i had four. daughters and i'm telling you when they. left every time to go somewhere in a car. or go out with someplace i always said. something to him and they would always. say dad you said that last night. i don't care what like i love you or. like i'd be careful i'd stay like don't. be driving and drinking or or don't be. uh in a car with somebody that's uh you.

know of of the of the same nature or you. know stay out of trouble you know don't. go be somewhere where you you know you. have i said you know how to get out of a. car if you if your car goes into the. river you know you know i just you know. i'm always thinking ahead a little bit. just in case if something uh. did happen and i it goes back to that. goes back to that walk to school with. that with that young man that when he. was talking to me and i just. i took it and i kept it inside me and. once i found out she had been murdered.

it. it took me maybe. 25 to 30 minutes. and i told my dad i think i know who. killed her. and. he looked at me and he just like he. slapped me actually he pushed me against. the car he didn't slide he pushed me in. his car my mom slaps me and she was the. one that slapped me around a little bit. but my dad. he uh. he he pushed me against his car what do. you mean you might know something about. this. i said dad i i don't for sure but.

and i would probably all crying but and. i don't i doubt if i was crying yet. i've probably cried a lot of tears since. but but you know i just said. hey. i was walking to school. with this neighbor. and i never had walked to school with. him before. and he was kind of a troubled kid. and he said something about diane. and it wasn't good. but i. i didn't he goes why didn't you say. something i said i daddy i i just boy.

talk you know so you know and so he. hugged he hugged me he hugged me he. hugged me and uh. you know it it was one of these things. that. it's definitely made me. a lot of who i am because there's been a. lot of choices and i don't i took the. word choice out of my life. and i just like to say okay do the right. thing do the thing that's that you. should do and so i don't really i don't. it's like you're going to do this or. this well what do you mean which one's. better.

you know well then i'm so i don't have. that choice yeah just give me the right. way to go and so. it's not that i've been perfect by any. means but it's made a big difference in. my life. uh on how i. handled my life it's it's probably. given me the opportunity to be married. for 44 years it's just given me. opportunities to uh be better in my life. and and i you know i i want to thank. my sister for that you know it's uh. and i think my family was ready to make.

a split. because of that incident they're blaming. each other and i think that uh. i was able to help but more than that. they really liked each other but they. didn't really know it at the time. until i got out of the house two years. later. it probably was going on for a couple. years until i moved on and went to. college then they found out they really. liked each other. when they were alone. and it worked out pretty good but. i think them being able to follow me.

not just through. college and olympics and worlds but my. coaching so it's the same the same. success and factor you know the. excitement and and all those things gave. them a real purpose. and uh it gave my four daughters it gave. my wife uh you know a real purpose to be. able to be close to all these champions. and championships and and and now it's. because now it's like there's a family.

of 22. and they're all interested in what what. we're interested in and it's going good. knock on wood but. you know it's something that when all of. a sudden you've got too much time in. your hands and you're not doing. accomplishing much. that things probably. you know get off get off track what do. you think is the role of family in. wrestling can a man do it alone and if. not. where's family most important. you know you could do it alone. but why would you want to.

yeah i think the chances of doing it. alone are much less than the chances of. doing it together yeah. i know they say don't bring your. profession home sometimes they say that. this might never i never got away from. my profession yeah and you know. sometimes i. it's like my house right here. so when i'm moving home. and i'm not gonna have an office because. i'm not gonna coach anymore or i'm not. gonna be an assistant athletic director. for a while.

that. got to do something that. gives you a little bit of a break not. you necessarily maybe the person you're. living with. and so i don't know if you looked. outside there i got a cabin right out of. my backyard you probably can't see it. right there but what's in the cabin. that's my. house away from my house it's only 30. feet from my house and it's my office. and it's my workout room it's my i got a. sauna there it's it's a bed upstairs if.

i need it if i ever uh get too close and. she says hey why don't you go sleep in. the other house. but you know he kicks me out of the bed. but get the heck out it's never happened. yeah but i do spend a lot of time out. there and uh it's uh. you know you gotta have a little. distance sometimes and you gotta know. you're gonna know your role and so all. of a sudden when you're a guy that's. been gone your whole life from eight. o'clock in the morning until close to 7. 30 or 8 o'clock at night so 11 12 hours. a day then all of a sudden you're not. gone as much. even though you still work she's trying.

to slow me down now i'm doing uh not so. much like here what we're doing right. now but when i get in the car and drive. somewhere or fly somewhere you know like. just last night i just went to bed and i. hadn't told her that this guy called me. and he wants me to uh. speak for uh. you want to build another wrestling. wants to start another wrestlers in. business networking out in uh. delaware because we don't have any. colleges and wrestling in delaware and. so i said well you know you know gladly. that because that's my life you know so.

but then all of a sudden i i didn't say. anything to my wife until all of a. sudden this morning. and i told her that i might go on the. friday the 21st of december oh no well. well i said that's not this christmas. she goes. we're celebrating christmas that weekend. early because a lot of the family can't. be i'll be here except for that weekend. yeah. and i said oh well that's not gonna work. but i kind of didn't say anything to her. first and then. well i'll tell you she started getting a.

little emotional. and if i want to stay married for. another year 45 years. then i better. tell those people that. i got family obligations. because. uh. yeah it depends what's most important. i love wrestling i love wrestling and i. want to start another west helper start. another wrestlers and business network. but there's more than one dang gable out. there well maybe not but. but. but there's there's a lot of people that. are um.

maybe even closer yeah and they got big. names i mean we're we're doing pretty. well right now i mean we got first two. years ago. and we got second this year. uh and then we got the women's. freestyles doing good in wrestling we. got to work a little bit on our greco. yet but. but they are working on it but our men's. freestyle team right now. are. are excellent and you know and uh. the key for them is to get them all on.

the same page. instead of. just. have new highlights and by that i'm. saying who look you look and see who won. this year well the three guys that have. never won before won this year we had. three world champions our two past world. champions. didn't win this year i mean they they. did okay you know they got medals. yeah deborah's win no he did not. he got third. oh that's right he got bronze yeah and. inside got i mean um. snyder got second so those two are our.

main guys you know so the three new guys. that came through. were guys that hadn't won. world gold in fact two of them have. never made a world team before and so. when we have three world champions this. year but we needed all five of them to. come through to win the uh the. championships and so the key really is. getting them all to do the same at the. same time year in and year out and not. just uh based on. okay uh burl's got beat this year so.

he'll win next year it's got to be every. year if you're capable of doing that and. that's what the coaching staff has to do. it's kind of funny that i do have a lot. of influence actually on the coaching. staffs right now at the usa level. because the the women's freestyle guy is. uh is terry steiner and he wrestled for. me he was a national champion he's got a. twin brother that's at uh fresno state. and then billy zaddick is the uh. freestyle coach and he wrestled for the. hawkeyes back in uh. the early days and uh he was the.

national champion so. we got a lot of. uh former gable influence on there but. but it's got deep roots in there. in 2013 the international olympic. committee ioc voted wrestling out of the. olympics. so. a lot of folks know about this the. absurdity of it and so on but in a big. picture you can step back now it's five. years later what did you learn from that. experience. well first of all. did it surprise me.

yeah. but. did it really surprise me no. you gotta run you gotta have. people running. the organization. that are top-notch. if you take anything for granted. and you're not the person of authority. somebody can. kick you out. and even though we had a lot of. authority because we're wrestling we're.

the one of the first sports in the. olympics ever. and that we. uh. think that. you know we're in 180 some countries. and uh. some of the number one. countries in the world that are. politically strong have the sport. you know we thought we were okay but. then you got to look and see who's. running the ilc. the ioc the international olympic.

committee yeah. and then you got to see that. in wrestling we don't have anybody in. there. i mean that shocked me. we've never had anybody on the ilc. from wrestling yeah you know why. because we didn't have to. but yes that's wrong. you have to and if you don't. have somebody looking out for you right. within the structure. then it's pretty easy people turn their.

head yeah but all it took. was. the statement you guys are kicked out of. the olympics you guys are done everybody. came together i think well yeah i mean. it's the first time in ever in history. that probably all this competitive. people. that were working for their own agenda. turn that agenda. to the sport. and that so that made a big difference. and we got a lot done in fact.

in america. there was several people. that were. really. out there that we didn't know about. until this point in time. and when they came aboard. now they're still aboard. that doesn't mean we're doing everything. perfect because just because we got. voted back in before we even got kicked. out really. that doesn't mean we're by any means. safe. we have to do some of the things that. i'm talking about or some of the things.

that we didn't do before we can't fall. right back into the same mess yes and so. our leadership got changed. and it's. better. but it's got to stay better. but. there are things that we could still be. doing to make sure that we don't. have situations like this happen i'll. tell you when i first learned about it i. was like. i broke down and wept. yeah again it's like every once in a. while i'll break down and and and cry.

about. my sister yeah or i'll break down. i don't know if i cry about losing to. owings but. i'd probably get more determined but. that's kind of uh you have to go back. and and think about those moments when. you heard when i heard that moment and i. i said i it just overcame me it was like. four o'clock 4 4 30 in the morning. when i heard about it and uh my wife had. been been up looking at the internet and.

she she woke me up i thought she was. joking. but i jumped out of bed really quick. when she said that i knew she was. serious and i started. making phone calls right then. to find out if it was true and when i. found out was true you know it was just. like devastating. you know and it was one of these things. that. it's a nightmare. and. but you don't let it happen again. it's that simple yeah and you keep. getting stronger yeah. and uh if people haven't read they.

should read the loss of dan gable by ray. thompson the espn article that kind of. in this very beautiful poetic way. ties together. uh all the losses of dan gable the. losing your sister losing to larry. owings losing wrestling from the. olympics all of these tragedies. of various forms. so that's. the ioc there's politics and you're sort. of being very pragmatic but.

stepping back wrestling is one of the. oldest forms of combat period dating. back there's cave drawings 15 thousand. years ago. and if you look at uh the ancient. olympics the greek olympics twenty seven. hundred years ago. did you ever when you wrestled or. coached do you now. see wrestling in this way a freestyle. folk style wrestling the purity of. sort of two human beings locked in. combat the the roots of that us just. human beings.

this fair struggle between two men or. two women. i don't think i ever. looked at it. as anything but just to a combat. and. i think there's times. that have made me figure out how to make. that combat better. there's little. markers. or little points in time in your life. that make you.

wonder or i should say determined. to be able to get more out of yourself. and to be able to take it to a new level. and i don't think people can actually. feel that way unless you've actually had. a lot of accomplishments in anything. i think there's anything out there i. mean no matter what sport or or breaking. the four minute mile i mean when you. broke that when they broke that roger. banister broke that four minute mile i.

can't imagine him breaking it from his. best time being 4 30. you know it's one of these things that. along the line there that he did. had some close calls. or he had some coaching that was given. him the opportunity to become a little. better but i think because he. was doing well and being very successful. that the opportunity came and so as for. me it's like the same thing i had so.

much. success. and so many practices. that went well. and so much. goodness out of this sport. that it gave me the opportunity. to really. look more. finite and look more how i can even make. it better and so it's like if you look. at my library upstairs i got a library. upstairs.

and there's a lot of books up there. from the family and but if you look at. the gable books up there. i got a lot of. russian technique books. [Laughter]. i can't read the book. but i can see the diagrams. and i can see this the figures. they don't really show it in pictures. they do it in drawings. and. and so it's like when i was trying to. beat the best that has.

labeled the best because they win the. world championships every year since. they've been just about involved and i. don't think they got started involved. until like the 50s but. but you know it's. something you know you study the best. who's out there but then you don't focus. so much on the best that you can't beat. the best. you learn from them. but there's something that they don't. have.

that you can have. toughness to technique to the art to the. science yeah all that stuff and that's. why even talking to you when you're. sitting over there you love mit and. you're bragging about it over harvard. you know. you know it's because it's true. in your eyes and and that's and that's. great and it might be. but uh but it's the same type of thing. that uh. you know there's something that you're. probably stealing from harvard yeah but. you won't give them credit well then.

in the interest of time. uh i've read that you're pretty serious. you're pretty seriously into fishing. so what's the biggest fish you ever. caught. what are we talking about here are we. you're talking about. no. i don't think i've ever caught a big. ocean fish i'm not i'm a river lake. fisherman i have. trout no probably uh. probably northern okay i probably caught.

a northern that weighed 20 some pounds. uh you know i my fish i like to catch is. walleyes and that the reason why i like. to catch them because they're really. good eating fish. and the best eating fish are not the. real big ones uh. you know it's kind of kind of. interesting they i got people hunting. deer right on my land. and. they're looking for the big bucks but. they're not the best eaters if you want. if you want to eat them but they're the. best trophy so you know i do have a. couple trophy walleyes on the wall but.

but uh. most time i throw the big ones back and. put them back in there so. i don't know if you know there's a book. by hemingway called old man in the sea. and part of it and uh ernest hemingway. ernest hemingway yeah. and he uh there's a there's an old man. that basically uh. catches an 18-footer but it can't pull. it in doesn't have the strength so they. together spend. while the sharks eat away at it. i mean this is very powerful story i. think one in the nobel prize but he says. it's better to be lucky.

the old man says it's better to be lucky. but i would rather be exact that that. that way when luck comes you're ready so. let me ask. uh. what do you think about luck do you. believe. in free will that we have actions. that control the direction destination. of our life or does luck and some other. outside forces. really. land you where you end up. for me. i'm not about luck.

but i do think there is. luck is involved. but i think it's mostly created. uh just how lucky you are through. preparations. and things happen things have happened. in my life. forever. and a lot of good things. and a lot of people could say hey you've. been pretty lucky to win all these. awards. i don't know if you analyze. my life. i don't think it was involved with luck. you know i think it was more involved.

with preparation and you know and again. science. had you been smarter had you understood. that you could do some things. and be just as lucky that'd be great but. i'm only as smart as today. so when i was training in my life and me. even training people. in my life. as of that moment that's how lucky i am. to uh be able to um. have whatever is available to me.

and that's what you call that a lot of. science so for me i. i think that uh you know like right now. if i look back i do a lot of things. different. just because. things are proven. differently like i'd. give people water during practice and i. did. and i would let them change their. running wrestling shoes into running. shoes to run sprints on the concrete. or i would actually maybe um. maybe i had a guy climb 12 ropes after. practice one after another and then.

maybe the next day i'd do it again. ah you know i might not make him do it. the next day i might let him recover a. little bit more. and. uh you got to learn keep adding to your. philosophy and your philosophy may have. been great at that time but it's at that. time and what is really important is. where you at with this time today. and so there's better ways to do things. now if you ever take attitude out of it. and just depend on.

total science. then you know you're not going to be as. as uh you know i think it's i i listened. to a couple of people that are really. pretty famous people uh one of them was. john irving he was a. writer yeah and he told me he said you. think i really. learned how to be a great writer. in uh. writing school. i he said yeah i learned a lot there. but really what gave me.

the ability. to stay focused just to work extra hours. to be more disciplined was wrestling. practices. that's right he was a wrestler yeah yeah. he goes i go back to that that's what. gave me that chance. you know and and there's a guy in iowa. that uh. a guy named norman borlaug. he uh. he he learned he. he invented a process to feed the. underprivileged countries.

of the world. and. he was a wrestler and he said the same. thing and he worked extremely hard and. he said. i give a lot of credit to the sport of. wrestling. and even though i was i'm known for this. and i got a statue in in. washington dc because i saved a billion. lives plus. uh i'm gonna give wrestling a lot of. credit so you know i think. some of these. mma stars. and some of these guys that maybe.

weren't wrestlers that had to wrestle. russell had to fight wrestling guys and. stuff missed a little bit there but i. think the ones that did have wrestling. probably have a really good chance and. can adapt to the other ones but you know. i think every. martial art or every activity is good. and you probably can't skip any but i. don't think they're ever going to. overlook and say that wrestling's. pretty not are not valuable because. it is. however that doesn't mean you're going. to make it you still got to take the.

values and apply it. whatever area you're going to be in and. and some people forget that some people. can't get over. the highness of getting your arm raised. in a wrestling match and i and you know. what what's even greater than. me getting my arm raised is that i if. i'm a coach or if i doesn't belong with. you that you get your arm raised yeah. and even if you don't get your arm. raised it's what you walk away with. and how and how you learn.

to uh. handle that as well because there's. going to be some losses. but you don't want many. because you don't want to get used to. losing i can tell you that that's the. hunger for the win it's the brotherhood. the sisterhood of the wrestling room and. it's hard work and science that's going. to be luck. at the end of the day. absolutely that luck you know i'm you. know i i like luck but i think it's. created by uh the opportunity that. you make your luck you make your luck. yeah dan it was a huge honor thank you.

for welcoming me into your home and for. having this conversation yeah no problem. good man. thanks for listening to this. conversation with dan gable and thank. you to our sponsors trial labs a machine. learning company expressvpn. grammarly writing helper tool. and simply save home security. so the choice is artificial intelligence. privacy grammar or safety. choose wisely my friends and if you wish. click the sponsor links below to get a.

discount and to support this podcast and. now let me leave you with some words. from dan gable. the first period is won by the best. technician. the second period is won by the kid in. the best shape. and the third period is won by the kid. with the biggest heart. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time.