Botez Sisters: Chess, Streaming, and Fame | Lex Fridman Podcast #319

i mean i've definitely experienced. moments where. i didn't want to do anything but chess i. also say that's pretty universal i think. if you want to be that the best at. anything you do or any sport you have to. be that level of obsessed. the following is a conversation with. alexander and andrea botez they're. sisters professional chess players. commentators educators entertainers and. streamers. their channel is called botezlive on. twitch and youtube i highly recommend. you check it out.

a small side note about the currently. ongoing controversy in the chess world. where the 19 year old grandmaster hans. niemann beat magnus carlson at the. sinkfield cup. after this magnus for the first time. ever withdrew from the tournament. implying with a tweet that there may. have been cheating or at least something. shady going on. folks like the grandmaster hikaru. nakamura fanned the flames of cheating. accusations and the internet. made a bunch of proposals. on how the cheating could have been done.

and it ranged from the ridiculous to the. hilarious. often both. hans himself came out and said that he. has cheated before when he was 12 and 16. on random online games to jack up his. rating. but. he said that he has never cheated in. person over the board. danny wrench from chess.com who i've. spoken with may make a statement in. response to hanza's claims soon. folks like grandmaster yakabuga spoke to.

his experience training hans neiman and. has said that his memory and intuition. were quite brilliant. so as you see there's a lot of. perspectives on this chess base has a. good summary of the saga that i'll link. in the description. also note that this is so quickly moving. that new stuff might come out between me. recording this and publishing the. episode but i thought i'd mention this. anyway since the episode with the. beautiful sisters is a conversation. about chess and was recorded shortly. before the controversy so we didn't talk.

about it. i'm considering having hans on this. podcast and also magnus back on the. podcast and maybe others like hikaru or. folks from. chess.com's anti-cheat staff to discuss. their really interesting cheating. detection algorithms. but. i may also just stay out of it. i find just to be a beautiful game. and the chess community full of. fascinating brilliant people and so i'll. keep having conversations like these.

about chess it's fun. my goal with this podcast and in general. as a human being. is to increase the amount of love in the. world. sometimes that involves celebrating. brilliance and beauty in science in art. in chess. sometimes it involves empathetic. conversations with controversial figures. that seek to understand. not deride. sometimes it involves standing against. the internet lynch mob as the. chess-based article calls it to hear the.

story of a human being who is under. attack. even if it means i get attacked in the. process as well. this is the lex friedman podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors. in the description and now dear friends. here's alexandra and andrea botez. you just got back from italy. what's the most memorable thing i was. just there recently as well it was very. chaotic because we went out on a whim. and we only had our first hotel book and.

then we rented a car and drove around. all of the cities and went to like five. different cities in about a week and a. bit um so i think it was just the. variety of seeing so many different. places when we're used to being at home. all the time and andrea. is yours your luggage yeah i would say. it was the most stressful vacation we've. been in in our life and it was a. valuable learning lesson because now i. know how to be prepared for trips um but. we lost our bags and i never got him. back and like alex said we didn't know. where we'd be sleeping every night and.

we're just driving through a new city um. with a giant van in the most narrowest. streets with and getting in many many. fights with italian men um so it wasn't. really a vacation i saw this motion so. many times. wasn't it liberating to lose your. baggage is it like a silver lining it. was liberating my entire life i've. always had the issue of over packing and. i told her for the trip andrea you're. gonna pack light right yeah alex yeah. and then i see her stuffing her over you. did the same we both had giant big extra.

baggage that we didn't need and i'm. actually very glad we lost it because. for venice hauling that around on all. the boats and through the tiny streets. and there's no ubers. and now it's the first time where i can. travel without checking in a bag which. i've never done before so now i've. learned what it means to pack light. because i saw that i could survive off. of just my this sounds very dramatic but. it was really a big learning lesson for. me the driving must have been crazy. because driving in italy is rough the. driving was crazy i did most of it and.

it would be really interesting driving. through places like florence or even. through uh the beach areas that were. super windy because they're two-way. streets that should really only be one. way so you'd be driving this huge van. and then another car comes on a cliff. and you're just waiting for it to slowly. pass so. it took all of my focus and. concentration to drive well in italy but. it was actually really relaxing because. the hardest thing about uh. making a lot of videos online is you're.

always thinking about it what's coming. next and when we were in italy it was so. chaotic that i did not think about work. for a good week and a bit. oh cause you're just we were stressed i. was just trying to keep us alive. higher priority and that was kind of fun. it was kind of fun no planning nothing i. wouldn't recommend it or ever do that. again but. it sounds sounds pretty awesome and we. even randomly ran into two friends of. ours who were in the same city and we. just traveled with them for about half.

of the trip yeah so you just took on the. chaos exactly it was an adventure okay. and i see like because you were using. your hands a lot you gotten you you. picked up some of the. the italian hand gestures i did we did. get yelled at by a lot of italians the. old italian grandmas would come to us. after breakfast because we'd leave. something on the plate and she'd be like. you could feed an entire village with. that tell your friends and we'd be we'd. feel so ash yeah we got cursed out a lot. but it really reminded me of where we. grew up and how true yeah bring back.

those where'd you grow up. oh we were. romanian but it was like an immigrant. neighborhood. um so you know same if you don't finish. your plate that's disrespectful to the. people who made the food how's the food. in italy i feel like uh the carbs thing. is too much very yeah i think very. overrated in my opinion so i'm actually. not supposed to eat gluten because i. have an allergy yeah but i was in italy. and it's you know gluten galore so i was. actually eating a lot of it and it was. very interesting because i didn't get. sick while i was in italy but i do while.

i'm in the u.s. so somehow. the food was actually maybe more okay. for me to digest which i appreciated but. i didn't like it as much as i thought. did you like the food there yeah. no. it's uh i did i did i love cars but it's. um. it's it feels like vegas when when i go. there for the food it's like if i stay. here. too long i'm gonna do things i regret. that's what it feels like with the food. right i don't know how to moderate and.

everybody is pushing very large portions. and wild kind of eating things on you. uh pasta. pizza and it's so good and bread. so delicious so. yeah i i love it but i regret everything. so it's like i don't want to i don't. want to go to a place where. um i'm going to regret everything i do. for too long of a time. yeah surprisingly the people there. though are still very fit and everyone. stays in good shape but that's probably. because you're walking around all day.

and you're much more active than. anything and they also just know how to. moderate food i think i got used to the. u.s way of eating the u.s porsche what. is that. just a lot. never always a lot yeah and more and i. feel in the u.s food advertisements are. also much more in your face and you're. more often reminded of junk food than we. were in italy so even though you're. eating less healthy things i think we're. getting cravings and being pushed. towards junk food less often.

all right i got to ask you a hard. question. uh so the romance languages so i think. french is up there as like number one. number one in terms of i don't know this. was ranking them. oh you guys speak italian or no not. italian but we studied french and. spanish in school. and romanian i feel like every country. calls their language a romance like no. but it's romanian french spanish. portuguese. um and i think there was one more that. was like this dialect but those are.

considered the romance languages okay so. where would you put italian i think we. got yelled at i'm so. it's on the bottom of the list because. people did not use it nicely but i. always really liked how french sounds. um. i i think something about it where maybe. spanish actually sounds nicer to the. ears but french has more character and. it feels more sultry so i like french. that was my answer too oh sultry okay.

yeah. i feel like uh french well in france i. feel like i'm always being judged. like they're better than me that's what. friends they are better yeah. this is so true. uh which is why you know yeah i long to. belong to that i like the british accent. the british really yeah actually one. thing we did on our italian trip is we. just picked up british accents for the. entire trip for fun.

and we forgot we were doing them to the. point where we talked to british people. and they just ask us why are you talking. like that i just couldn't stop i i did. feel much more elegant and mature true. people like you know i don't know if. they felt the same way about us but it. was more of you know the confidence. you do feel like you're more poised for. sure yeah. so how'd you guys get into chess. when when did you first let's say when. did you first fall in love with chess. so we both started playing when we were.

pretty young around six years old that's. when our dad taught us and. i enjoyed playing chess because i had. good results early on but a lot of it. was being pushed from my dad to play. chess and i only really started loving. it when we moved from canada and we. started moving a lot and chess was the. one stable thing that i had and it was. also where all my. uh friends were so it was kind of that. foundational thing for me. and that's when i started studying chess. very intensely and when i started.

putting in the hours out of my own will. not because i was being pushed by my dad. that's when i started really loving it. and i even wanted to take time off. college to just focus on chess. so training and competing training and. competing yeah it was when i was doing. it for myself that i started getting my. best results. and actually enjoying the thing and. really enjoying it yeah i would spend. summer vacation studying for tournaments. and my mom would come and say you need. to make friends go leave the house and. i'd be like no i need to play chess and. i i remember those moments that you.

rebelled by playing chess yeah exactly. how did you get into it yeah my my. experience with. loving in high school is very opposite. from alex's but right my sister was. playing and my dad taught me when i was. andrea was cool in high school unlike me. you are uh i i wouldn't say cool i'd. save more balance and i was interested. in other hobbies in my childhood if i. ever really did love chess there's. certainly moments about like traveling. and being together with my family and. spending those moments together but. those are more the social and the.

experiences but funny enough like i. think my happiest moment where i really. played the game for my own enjoyment was. probably my most recent tournament. because this was after obviously we've. been streaming and i'm no longer in high. school but when i was in school i was. always playing for college and for the. results trying to build a resume so i. was too stressed out about the pressure. to really enjoy the game whereas when i. just played my first tournament so it. was like. after like a two-year break because of.

the pandemic um and it was also all live. on twitch so there was some pressure but. it was the first time that like i was. really eager to study for the game. sitting and focusing since we've been. streaming and not getting distracted by. something else in years like i said and. the tournament experience i hit my. highest rating and it was my best. tournament ever and i think most of that. is because it came from my own enjoyment. so. you didn't enjoy the domination because. i think you like did really well right. this is like a couple months ago uh oh.

yeah yeah the tournament well of course. i think the results came from enjoying. the tournament because i would be in. high school like studying double triple. the amount of time like six hours every. day compared to this tournament i didn't. even prepare for it and for three years. i wouldn't be able to pass one rating. whereas in this one term and i passed it. by like 70 points without even any. preparation so it was i think as soon as. you stop worrying about the competitions. when the games get much better what does. it mean to pass a rating so i was stuck. at 1900. 1900 is 100 points off of.

expert yeah. usually when you reach 2000 you're. considered an expert which is the rating. andre i was going for okay expert that's. the technical term or this like. it's more of a colloquial term where if. somebody's around a 2000 you're playing. them in a tournament they won't have the. actual title next to their name but you. say i'm playing an expert what about. like the the more official things like. master that have to do with the ratings. yeah so national master in the us is. when you're 2200. okay and what's international master. international master is based off of a.

different system the fide system which. is international to be an international. master it's. 2400 and you have to have three. international master norms. yeah i think magnus said he's uh 28 6. something. that was yeah and then he said uh that's. pretty decent. no well he always uh but the thing is i. think what he meant. is. that's a decent rating because it. accurately captures his actual level. so it's uh it's not over inflated or.

underinflated and so on. and so the discussion there was how do. you get can a human being get to 2900. and then he says because my current. rating is pretty decent. representing my skill level it's gonna. be a long road to actually get there. right because it's like. so you have to beat people your same. level that's how the number increases. exactly. yeah and you beat a bunch of people in. the tournament right that are higher. than that very lucky oh i was playing i. was really nervous because my category. was like 200 points above my rating and.

of course. i was very rusty and i hadn't played a. tournament in a while but it went pretty. well. do you feel the pressure when you're. actually recording it like the streaming. it was. definitely so before every round i was. vlogging and i was doing meet and greets. and doing other things for them that's. how you do a meet and greet you didn't. know what the hell you're doing is great. yeah like where am i how do i do this. yeah i see. what do i do it was actually really. wholesome the beginning was um very.

silly because i was just not expecting. that it was going to be more of a. seminar i thought it was like oh you. pose and take pictures but they actually. asked really nice meaningful questions. but unfortunately it's bad for youtube. retention and we cut them all out so. bad for you. the good long-form conversation so it. was like questions q a type of thing. exactly you have to have very fast pace. for youtube and um that seminar was not. fast-paced okay well not everything in. life needs to be on youtube right. there's like two parallel things stuff. that's fun for youtube yes and one day.

we'll post that q a one yeah when you. guys like when you become like ultra. famous you're currently just regular. famous. q and a slow. content yes. and that the youtube aspect the creation. aspect does that add to the fun. ultimately how's the chess of like your. love of chess oh for the love of chess. in general or just for competing in that. one tournament no love with just in. general i i think you said that for. competing for that tournament was adding. pressure yeah but actually i would say.

like a good pressure but yeah this is. where i differed to alex because. um when i was just competitive and i was. younger. i don't think i loved chess as much as. when i started doing it for content. because unlike her a lot of her friends. and social circle. other chess players i never really. traveled and built really solid. friendships through chess until i. started streaming and meeting other. chess streamers and. actually playing and talking to people. for fun rather than just always being. alone in the game and never really. meeting other people my age or people.

with similar interests so i would say. twitch was the thing that. really changed how i approached the game. i think with uh with some youtubers. there's a pressure to be almost somebody. else you create a persona and you're. stuck in that persona i think. um i'm. too i'm too much of a boomer to know. what the hell twitch is anyway but the. it feels like when you're actually live. streaming. you can't help but be who you really are. i think it's oh well i think when you're. live streaming and i've talked to a lot. of other streamers about this.

you kind of just over exaggerate one. side of your personality and of course. it's kind of like being like on all the. time like you're trying to be more. entertaining and sometimes you're being. sillier at moments or. more. you take what character traits like. people know you for and for me one is. being like adhd and the younger sibling. who's very energetic and causes trouble. even though yeah i'm sure you caused. trouble just for the camera yeah right. i think yeah i think. and of course once you're live streaming.

for like four or five hours there's. gonna be moments in the stream where. it's more chill but especially when. you're like editing that content or. you're doing bigger streams that are. shorter. you are kind of playing up a side of. yourself because of course there's a lot. of parts of me that i don't show to the. camera because they're not as. entertaining to watch like the more. serious part and also there's things. that you are really interested in about. what you do like i love competitive. chess where i could sit and really think. about it but i know that that is not. going to be as entertaining for stream i.

know that's not going to be as. entertaining for youtube so you kind of. have to take what you like but then. really adapt it for whatever the format. is and sometimes that feels inauthentic. uh but other times it just feels like. repackaging what you love for people. in a more general audience to enjoy do. you feel like it's a trap a little bit. as you evolve like uh. oh i think social media oh sorry go. ahead social media in general is a trap. of that of that kind. well so we've been trying to switch to.

learn how to make youtube videos. recently and so much of learning youtube. school is kind of the beastification of. content where you try to get to the. point of the video within like the first. 10 seconds to not lose people you try to. take it you mean like mr beast yeah okay. yeah where it's so fast-paced there's a. reason to wait there's high stakes. and everything is created to keep people. watching the video and keep people on. the platform and in some ways it is a. trap because it's harder to do.

the kind of content you like because you. really have to squeeze it to be like. okay well. do we have a good thumbnail for this do. we have a good title for this um and. that's something that we're trying to. figure out how. to. keep true to what we want to do yeah see. the way i think about it is yeah there's. a lot of stuff you can create and yeah. the mr bestification process. but also. i think about what are the videos. conversations or things i will create in. this life.

that will be. the best thing i do. and um i try not to do things. in my life that will prevent me from. getting there i feel like if you're. always focusing on um. doing kind of the optimizing the. thumbnail in the 10 seconds and so on. you'll never do the thing that's truly. you're known for and remembered for so. finding that balance is tricky i get. that but at the same time this might be. my own copium which i know is a word you. know now.

yeah i'm slowly learning the complexity. of the term yes um but. the other way i think about it is. it is the skill to learn how to. communicate with large audiences. and. first i started streaming chess which is. something i just did and really loved. but now i have to learn how to translate. that format and if that's a skill set we. could build then we could use it to do. really important things. and i've seen a lot of youtubers who. have done interviews about how you know.

they didn't love the kind of content. they did at at first but what they're. doing right now is really meaningful so. i like to think of it maybe like skill. development because not everybody hits. off podcasts where they can talk to. super interesting people right off the. bat yeah you can be slow and boring in a. podcast you don't have to worry about. the first 10 seconds i mean people like. keep pushing me for because but the. first 10 seconds of the videos. i do is well i know it's most important. for youtube but i don't give a damn i. wrote a chrome extension that hides all.

the views and likes i don't look at the. the the click i don't look at twitch. views andrea does so we also can relate. i love numbers too but that's why i. don't look at it because you become like. oh i. you'll start to think that a. conversation or a thing you did sucks. because it doesn't get views yeah but. that's just not the case. the youtube algorithm is this monster. that figures stuff out and if you let it. control your mind i feel like it's going. to destroy you creatively so you have to. find a nice balance i have to say i was.

laughing a little bit when i was. listening to the magnus episode and the. first 10 minutes you guys are talking. about soccer football two robots seem. like humans yeah. i was like let's have some fun a. conversation about non-chess related. topics yeah talk about sports yeah it. was kind of hilarious i was surprised. that. uh even at his level. i wasn't sure but i was surprised how. much he loves chess it sounds cliche to. say but like the way he looked at a.

chess board you know those memes like i. wish somebody looked at me in the way. he's still like the way he glanced down. and he reached for the pieces with. excitement to show me something there. was there wasn't like. uh okay i'll show you it was like. like there was still that fire. that's something that always shocks me. about some of like super grand masters. like one of my coaches was a person who. also his name's jim hammer of norway he. also coached. magnus he was his second and he was.

helping me train for my tournament and i. was kind of putting off doing the. homework he's like if you're putting it. off that means you're studying the wrong. thing like you should be enjoying even. when you're practicing which when i grew. up i thought to get to the top level. like practicing has to be hard and. unpleasant and when i was listening to. magnus episode he was like i didn't read. books very much or it there's one thing. that you said that's like very normal. for studying classical chess that he. didn't do just because it didn't. interest him he says i suck at puzzles i. don't like puzzles yeah and he doesn't.

do what he doesn't enjoy and that's. because it's like purely driven out of. passion i think the internet was like i. suck at puzzles too yeah they like that. i don't have to study at all it's just. it's fun and uh but i think the lesson. there that's really powerful is he. spends most of the day thinking about. chess because he wants to yeah so do. whatever if you're into getting better. chess to whatever it takes. to actually just the number of hours you. spend a day thinking about chess. maximize that if you're like super.

serious about it i actually get very. addicted whenever i start studying chess. which is why i don't do it as seriously. when i'm focused on content uh because i. go through these rabbit holes where if. i'm focusing on chess i want to be as. good as i possibly can at the game. otherwise it's hard for me to enjoy it. because it's such a competitive thing. and i remember training for tournaments. and when you're training for tournaments. you even start dreaming about chess and. you can't stop thinking about it and. it's as if you're flipped into this.

completely different world which is also. what i like best about the game that. it's a completely different living. experience and then you take some drugs. and now you start to see things on the. ceiling is there some factual um. hallucination like. uh to the uh queen's gambit like those. scenes uh i think it's is that based on. your life story from well i can't say. that on camera no just kidding um. actually chess players are very careful. to not take drugs they drink a lot yeah.

they drink so much it's actually crazy. for how good they're able to play chess. when they do. but when it comes to things like. psychedelics or other things they. usually stay away from those because. they don't want to mess anything up in. their brain so this is actually an. intervention i've i saw that you. mentioned somewhere i think was the lie. detector test where you have a drinking. problem. is that actual i think i think that's. actually um a meme that we like to joke. about on stream because occasionally. we'd have like a white claw on stream or. something like that and then people meme.

about it it goes back to andrea's point. of amplifying a part of your personality. to make yourself a little bit right more. entertaining you could use that as an. excuse from now on i'm just this podcast. is just amplifying a part of that person. now i'm not really like this. uh but have you played drunk like magnus. has played drunk he says it helps him. with the creativity is there any truth. to that well andrea is under 21 so she's. obviously would never do it never do. that um but i have played while drinking.

actually. i enjoy playing jess chess and drinking. more than pre-gaming or going out to a. club and drinking which sounds really. silly and i'll usually play against. opponents who are also you know having. some beer. and. it does make you feel like you're seeing. the game from a fresher perspective. where it. can sometimes make you feel more. confident liquid confidence and it does. help with creativity you just feel like. you could pull things off um but there's. also a limit it's more like you've had. one drink or two drink but then it goes.

beyond that and then you just start. missing tactics and it's not worth it. yeah i think it only helps players in. very short time controls one time i was. challenging this grandmaster on stream. and we were playing bullet chess which. is one minute chess and i was giving him. handicaps and i said okay you have to. take four shots before the next game and. he just got like 10 times stronger and. transformed into like the hulk and. destroyed me more than the last game so. but of course if you're playing like a. three-hour game it's gonna get old but i. think in short time controls it's.

amazing yeah it does definitely has to. be blitz it has to be where it's more. intuition rather than sitting in. calculus this is probably like. negatively affecting your ability to. calculate absolutely. how much when you guys play when you. look at the chess board how much of it. is calculation how much of it is. intuition how much of it is memorized. openings. um. it really depends between short form. chess so five minutes three minutes one. minute and classical chess what's your. favorite to play i love playing blitz.

now because that's most of what i do and. that's actually how i got into chess. streaming because i couldn't spend. entire weekends or weeks playing. tournaments i would just while i was in. college log on and play these long blitz. or bullet sessions and it's very fast so. you don't have time to go. calculate as deeply you basically have. to calculate short lines pretty quickly. and a lot of it is pattern recognition. and intuition um that's three minutes. you said three minutes yeah okay cool. and so for that it's just it's basically.

intuition a lot of it is intuition yeah. see i saw on the streams you actually. keep talking while playing chess it. seems like yeah that's my result that. doesn't help my results it doesn't help. the content not the game yeah exactly. but you can still do it because i i it. feels like how can you possibly. concentrate while talking it's because. so much of it is intuition you're not. while you're talking you're thinking. about that topic but then you just come. to the board and you just understand. what you should be doing here and then. sometimes you get in trouble because. you're talking and you have now lost. half of your time you have a minute and.

a half your opponent has three and. you're kind of at a disadvantage um. but that kind of goes to show that. that's how blitz chess usually works. whereas classical is very different. which of you is better at chess i mean. let's do it this way can you. um andrea can you say. what is. in which way is alex stronger than you. which way is she weaker than you not. physically in in terms of the ch in. terms of chess. um. well yes of course she is higher rated. but when we do play. um i think her strengths against me.

where she really gets me is the end game. she has stronger end games so she can. and i actually have a stronger opening. um but as soon as she's i'm supposed to. say what is good about you not you. yeah i'm getting there well see this is. the same because don't worry it's. related okay because if i can i can get. an advantage in the beginning of the. game but as soon as she starts trading. pieces down like my confidence drops. because i know that the end game is the. hardest part of the game and the longest. and that's where she ends up beating me. so her end game is her.

i think really what makes a difference. and she sounds like her. psychological warfare is better too. because if you're getting nervous that. is that but it's harder to play against. higher rated players same how you know. magnus and former world championship. champions have that psychological edge. so i think it's always going to be. different for andrea because she knows. statistically she should be winning. something like one in four games but she. usually does better than that because. she's very distracting and talks a lot. that does help what does it feel like to. play a higher rated player.

what's the experience of that. in like uh. playing somebody like magnus. so it depends on how much higher rated. than you they are if it's someone who's. like between me and andrea let's say. it's a 200 point difference. you know they should win but at least. you still feel like you have a chance i. was playing in uh title tuesday which is. this tournament chess.com has every. tuesday and i got really lucky beat a gm. drew an international master and then i. got paired against hikaru nakamura and.

my brain just went blank because the i. just know that i'm so unlikely to win. that i couldn't even play the game. properly when it's that much of a. difference where they should be winning. like 99 of the time. but that's like psychological so you're. saying that's the biggest experience. it's like. actually knowing the numbers and. statistically thinking there's no way i. can win but i meant like is there a. suffocating feeling like positionally. you feel like you're constantly. under attack. you just feel like you're slowly getting. outsmarted and the worst is when you.

don't even know what you're doing wrong. you come out of that you're like. i thought i was doing great and i got. slowly squeezed i didn't understand what. was going on and you're just kind of. baffled it's kind of like watching alpha. zero beat up stock fish and you don't. really understand why it's making. certain moves or how it thought of the. plan you just see it slowly getting the. position better and that's what it feels. like i i would add. it's kind of different for me if they're. someone who's significantly higher rated. so let's say more than like 300 points.

or you're playing magnus. what i notice is i just feel lost. straight as soon as i don't know my. preparation because they know so many. opening lines that they're going to know. the best line to beat you that you. haven't studied so then on move 10. you're like he already has a maybe plus. .5 advantage which is really small but. for someone with such a significant. skill level you know you already lost at. that point and it's like a third of the. game. what are the strengths and weaknesses of. andrea.

andrea is very good at opening. preparations as she said as she said she. likes bringing that up i mean she's very. meticulous about it where she'll really. go in and learn her lines. and having that initial starting. confidence isn't just helpful for the. opening but it helps develop your plans. for the middle game so i think she's. very good at that. um i think she's actually pretty good at. tactical. combinations um what is tactics tactics.

is like solving puzzles. um or basically finding lines that are. forced where if you find them you're. going to win. so that's like puzzles within a with. yeah exactly whereas strategic chess is. making slow moves and over the process. of like 20 moves you get a slightly. better position based on. an understanding of the overall strategy. so in my extensive research review on. wikipedia. it says your most played opening is the.

king's indian defense. in which quote black allows white to. advance their pawns to the center of the. board. in the first two moves i is there any. truth to this. so. the kings and what is it probably is my. most played opening um. and it's one where even when my coach. who was a grandmaster taught me he's. like so you know i've been playing the. king's indian for 10 years and i still. don't understand it and it's one of. those openings that computers really. don't like because you do or at least. stockfish doesn't like it maybe alpha.

zero would change their mind i forgot to. look at what can you show me by the way. what it is yeah. is it uh. is it white's opening or black something. black responds to uh the d4 queen's pawn. push and you take your knight out to f6. i'll just put in the you know. stereotypical. classical king's indian more so to say. um. so we actually have a very famous king's. indian game in the notes that we. prepared okay.

for the record i asked you guys for one. some games that you find pretty cool and. well maybe to get a chance to talk about. something yeah um so this is the king's. indian as you can see. white has much more control over the. center white has three pawns in the. center while black has none past the. fifth rank and you just have this pawn. on d6 and one of the ideas in chess is. if you're not taking the center then. your plan revolves around trying to. continually challenge it. but what is really fun about the king's.

indian is that black sometimes gets. these crazy king side attacks while. white gets queen side attacks and even. though. it's a little bit suspicious for black. and the computer could usually break it. it's hard to defend as a human when. you're being attacked but if you don't. pull off the attack as black then you're. just gonna end up being lost in the end. game so it's like a very asymmetrical. position it's very asymmetrical although. a lot of people now stop playing into.

the classical kings indian even though. computers give it a big advantage and. they play these slower lines in the. king's indian which are less fun to play. what's slower mean it takes a longer. time to like. do something interesting with um. they basically don't let you get as much. of a kingside attack because they try. opening up the center and then you have. no weaknesses but you're just slowly. improving the position of your pieces. instead of being able to go for that. king side attack so for people just.

listening there is a the. white pawns are all on the fourth row in. a row together that feels like a bad. position for black for white. oh you don't like taking the center no i. like taking the center so this is now. you're talking trash around oh sorry but. like. they're just like they're like feel. vulnerable they're in a row together. like it's like uh like a you know. because they're like who's gonna defend. them i guess the nice defender when the. queen defends it that you're actually. talking about a theme that you do see.

sometimes which is called hanging pawns. when you have two pawns right next to. each other with no other pawns to defend. them yeah um so it it is a value valid. point and actually as black you're. trying to break apart these pawns or get. them to push and create some holes into. the position. but it's. a trade-off and that's a lot of what. chess openings are about. you get more space but you'll also end. up having to protect your pawns. potentially or move them forward to the. point where they're overextended and. plus pawns being vulnerable it's kind of. fun this it's like there's more stuff in.

danger they're not because if it's if. it's like this everything's like trapped. like you can't do anything everything's. blocked yeah blocked off yeah because. you can't have fun yeah. the the. one of the most one of the opening. principles for white is get your pawns. in the center so i'd say. like this is actually preferable for. white go let's go over some opening. principles there we go because this is a. very good learning okay. in the audience.

okay so first thing you want to do is. control the center. there you go e4 the more aggressive one. isn't that like the the basic vanilla. move i didn't uh somebody told me that's. the most popular. opening move in chess it is why is that. considered aggressive so the two it's e4. and d4 and the king's pawn is known as. being for more tactical players whereas. d4 is known for more positional players. so that's why it's considered more. aggressive. gambits with e4 i think so tactical.

means. i'm i'm gonna try to attack you. you're gonna try to go for puzzles and. rely more on your um. combination abilities. uh whereas if it's something positional. you usually have like three to four. moves that are all good in the position. whereas tactics you need to see this one. line. so it's more precise so this this one's. cool because he can like you know the. queen can come out the bishop can come. out yeah and that's uh. one of the most popular checkmates and.

usually what you teach new students to. try to cheese their friends because then. they feel really excited that they know. this new trap where you bring the bishop. and the queen out and you try to check. mate on f7 yeah it's the trap that uh. queen's gambit beth harmon falls for. nerf like first game versus the janitor. she gets all mad because she gets. checkmated very early that's the one she. gets checkmated with yeah okay i love. how you guys were actually paying. attention to the games carefully. uh which is pretty cool that they did a. good job of. improving evolving her game throughout. the show to actually.

represent an actual growth of a chess. player yeah they they really. took every detail into consideration. which was cool okay so what what else. that's that's i brought stuff. okay. so then you want to develop your pieces. so in the beginning of the game you want. to take out the bishops and knights. first because you don't want to start. with the most valuable piece like the. queen. because then it'll become a. vulnerability and it'll get attacked. very early on. and the reason you're taking up these. two pieces first is because you want to.

castle your king so you can move a night. move or a bishop move and that's. considered developing yeah so if at this. stage not. like even before getting a few pawns out. you usually. want to start with getting a pawn. because you want to get space in the. center but also when you push pawns it. helps free up some of your pieces. um. so usually start with one pawn first and. then you can start taking out your minor. pieces which is the bishop in the night. i have anxiety about a pawn just. floating out there.

defenseless but i'm not attacked yet. it's a see those are what you call ghost. threats so you're scared of something. that hasn't happened yet so if i were to. attack it i feel like there's a deeper. thing going on here. actually let's say. yes so you're attacking the pawn in the. center here and it is vulnerable but as. soon as you do that. i can develop my own knight and defend. it as well. okay and now for people just listening. there's two pawns that just came out to. meet each other and a couple of nights.

we love the chess card. the pawns met after midnight yeah yeah. i'm gonna romanticize the game a bit. exactly uh okay cool so. so like there's uh. if you bring out the bishops with the. knights you're matching that with the. other uh the black is going to match it. whatever you're attacking with yeah. can't defend it i could develop your. bishop or your knight whatever you'd. like. oh no now you gave him options oh right. yeah. there you go.

now i am attacking the pawn in the. center which is what you were afraid. about before but let's see how you. defend it here. by doing this symmetrical thing bringing. out the knight on the other side and. actually your other move was good as. well defending with the pawn because. then you're freeing up space for your. bishop so you're basically trying to. develop your pieces as quickly as. possible put your pawns in the center. and then get your king to safety and. that's usually the basic opening tips.

that you get it is kind of. counterintuitive that safety is in the. corner of the board for kings. that was always confusing to me but you. know three pawns in front though you. typically don't push those. maybe like one maybe i'll go one square. but. these are will be like the wall of. defense that keep them safe but another. way to also think about it is um your. pieces usually want to point towards the. center if you have a knight closer to. the center then closer to the side it.

actually has more squares it can go to. so a huge part of it is just wanting to. have flexibility for where your pieces. go so more pieces are going to be able. to make threats in the center or even. open up the position so since that's. where it's most likely. to open you want your king somewhere. where the position will stay closed so. that you have the pawns to defend you. know there is like rules like this but i. always wonder because i build chess. engines but then. you start to wonder like why is it that.

positionally these things are good like. you've built up an intuition about it. but i wish and that's the thing that. would be amazing if engines could. explain. why is this kind of thing better than. this kind of thing you start to build up. an intuition but if i'm just like know. nothing about chess it feels confusing. that cornering your king. like getting them. uh. like trapped here like it feels like you. could get check made it easier there if. i was just using like dumb intuition but.

it seems like that's not the case. i imagine maybe because alpha zero. learned by playing games against itself. right yeah and i imagine if you have a. lot of games then you do build intuition. because if you were to keep your king in. the center you just see that in those. games you're dealing with threats a lot. more often. um but yeah they're shortcut rules and. this doesn't even mean it's the best way. to play chess as we've seen with. alpha zero kind of changing the rules of. the game a little bit but as a human. to learn it from scratch is a lot more.

difficult than to start with principles. so that's why beginners usually learn. chess this way. yeah but because you're playing other. humans and the other humans have also. operated under different principles and. that's why. people that come up now that are. training with engines. are just going to be much better at than. the people of the past because they're. going to have they're going to try out. weirder ideas that go against the. principles of old right and they're. gonna do like weird stuff including. sacrifices and stuff like that yeah and.

i also think that's why alpha zero was. so shocking because stockfish was using. an opening database so it was already. based off of knowledge that humans have. from playing chess for years that we. just thought is how you're supposed to. play whereas alpha zero just learned. from playing the game so many times and. came up with very novel opening ideas. were you impressed by alpha have you. have you seen some of the games i have. seen some of the games i think. impressed bewildered. and uh motivated were the three things i.

experienced i think magnus said uh he. was also impressed that. it could easily be mistaken for. creativity that's this trash talk. towards the ai that was a beautiful. sentence i i was listening to the. podcast. i mean. as a human i agree with him because you. don't want to give the machine the the. power of creativity but. if it looks creative. get give it give it a compliment that's. that's fair. i know that you're being nice to the. machines in case they are ever looking.

back through this. what else is there what other principles. are there for the um the opening you can. go a little bit. more forward let's say and yeah we can. finish full of development positions. like this. let's just say you developed all of your. pieces. um. so that's like a really nice. like nobody nobody took any pieces and. we're just in a nice positional thing. yeah so it's not actually a very. accurate yes. i could put a different one on the board. but usually after you've developed all.

of your pieces. um you want to get your queen out a. little bit to connect your rooks and you. also start thinking about certain pawn. pushes and getting more space. but another good tip is just can you. improve the position of your pieces. think about timing so if you've already. moved a piece once and there's a piece. that hasn't moved at all then you want. to focus on the piece that hasn't moved. at all. to be able to have it more likely to. jump into the game right so don't move. pieces multiple times exactly like try. to move it to the most optimal position.

yeah yeah that makes sense what uh. so what's the indian so i think we kind. of went over it but why did you ever say. why you like it so much because that's. weird because it's king-sized i liked it. because it's a very fun aggressive. defense where you're just throwing your. pieces towards white and there's so many. sacrificing opportunities. and for some reason tactical games. always feel like the most beautiful the. most satisfying and that's what i liked.

about the king's indian but i also. suffered a lot from this this love. because i would play things that are not. necessarily correct then my attack. wouldn't pan out and i would just. struggle the rest of the game having no. play and just trying to defend so if. you're always a wikipedia also says that. that you're known for your attacking. play. it's also known for losses according to. stanford okay let's not bring see. wikipedia doesn't talk trash. a lot nicer um i actually.

played a lot of positional chess in. classic because i really like the slow. squeeze. but when i transition to playing a lot. of online chess it's. almost as if i was looking for more. instant gratification because it feels. so much better to beat someone with an. attack and even if sometimes it doesn't. pan out i was okay with it because you. get so many games in. so i think my style in online chess. really changed for my classical chess. what about you andrea do you have a. style are you attacking are you uh more.

like conservative defensive player. are you chaotic opening wise i like to. play more positionally like i like to. push d4 and just slowly improve my. pieces and slowly get an attack but like. alex said if you're playing bullet chess. or blitz against viewers you often like. wanna. play riskier moves that may not be as. good and then that's kind of when i. would play more aggressive but i do. enjoy tournaments for that reason. because then. like once her 15 moves in which as soon. as you're out of your prep i like.

sitting and thinking in more positional. um. yeah positional middle games one of the. games you found to be pretty cool is the. uh hakara nakamura versus golf on in. 2009. and that one i think includes the. king's indian defense yes um what's. what's why is that an interesting one to. you i also played the king's indian as. black and i loved this model game but. and as alex was saying like all these. advantages for the king's indian but now.

there's this one line. that like every higher rated player just. destroys my king's indian and you see. these beautiful games they're like oh. yes i want to play for these ideas but. now no one plays into it anymore and you. just get demolished so this is why i. don't play the kings indeed anymore but. not to ruin the fun right the love hate. relationship truly the reality but. that's like the higher level players do. or does everybody yeah if you're. studying openings and you know this line. as white you just you automatically get. the upper edge and that's kind of how. openings develop you start having.

players trying new lines and then you. see ones and then everybody adopts it if. they think it's the best one but yeah so. hikaru is really known for his. aggressive style of play. black hero yeah hikaru is black here so. he's playing the king's indian. and as you can see in this position. white already has a lot a huge center. advantage but what hikaru is going to. start doing even with the next move is. bringing all of his pieces towards the. white king side because his plan is to. start pushing his pawns towards the.

white king and this ignore the attacks. that's a great example of a dream attack. with the king's indian so there's a. complete asymmetry towards the king side. on the left side of the board is a ton. of pieces yeah exactly um. wow he moved the night like three times. in a row. and that's what you need to do because. you have to move the knight in order to. make space for your pawn so again this. is why it's so counter-intuitive and. stockfish doesn't like it you're putting. almost most of your pieces on the back. rank and you're pushing your king side.

pawns and you're blocking your own dark. squared bishop so none of it makes sense. you're mimicking it that's awesome um. okay so yeah here you see white going. for queen side attack black going for. the king side attack and you can keep. going a little bit and i'll wait to. where he starts with the pretty. sacrifices. it's more fun to analyze games in person. than on the computer i think yeah okay. okay so here hikaru is preparing the. attack and what i really like about this. game is that he finds these tactics that.

are not necessarily what a computer. would go for but it's very hard to face. as a human and that's why a lot of. people play the king's indian because in. in practice it's hard to defend against. so we can keep moving a little bit. forward. okay. yep so white is just continuing the king. side plan now it's the first is that. like the first piece i think that's. taken in the game yep that's the first. trade so it begins exactly hikaru had to. pause his attack for a little bit to.

just make sure that white didn't have. two dire threats on the queen side so. cool to see the asymmetry of this thing. exactly that's what's beautiful about. this and just one thing to highlight. because his his rook move here is very. bizarre and typically like a computer. probably didn't like this but the ideas. are very interesting because this is a. major weakness for black that they're. coming to attack and he's also making. room for his bishop to come backwards. and challenge so this is like a. human-like maneuver that computer i. think computers would like this though.

because you have you'd have to move it. regardless because he has he takes the. pawn here and his rook would be under. attack yeah well have you looked at it. when i actually studied this as a line. and this right away isn't the best move. current computer so actually that's a. good question did you guys when you. study games use your own mind but do you. also use computers to. build up your intuition of like looking. at a position like this and what would a. computer do and then try to understand. why it wants to do that when i was. studying seriously i would try to use my. own mind because you're never going to. get the exact same position so you.

really need to notice trends and often. computers will give you moves that are. only specific to that position because. of a certain tactic. um but i do use computers to check what. i did and make sure i didn't make any. obvious blunder that i might have missed. what does a computer tell you just like. what what is the best move or does it. give you. any kind of explanation of why it. doesn't tell you why but it gives you. the different valuations of the position. like black is. down a half pawn here or something like.

that um but it hints you towards what. the right move is and then it's on you. to figure out why and you could usually. figure out why if not right away than. just by going through a few moves and. being like oh okay that makes sense i. feel like a computer will take you down. with some weird lines potentially. like sacrifice like why the hell am i. sacrificing this. well we'll get to the pretty sacrifice. soon um. so we could just keep playing bonds are. being pushed forward yeah. and hikaru is kind of ignoring the queen.

side attack here um they basically both. only reply to each other's plan when. they have to. this is where you convert all the. podcast viewers to youtube yeah they. have no idea what we're talking about. right now there is a zen like experience. of just like listening and imagining the. board just imagine the pieces on the. ceiling yeah you should we should be. calling them out and then people will be. freaking out even more am i supposed to. keep track of what the position is.

how hard is blindfold just have you. tried like are you able to keep them. i've played blindfold chest before um. for me it's pretty hard it's not a. muscle that i've trained as much and i'm. very visual when it comes to chess um. but it is one as a top player that. starts becoming very second nature for. you actually this is what. i talked to magnus about this. um maybe i was again influenced by. queen's gambit what do you actually. visualize when it's in your head. so for magnus it was a boring 2d board.

right are you do you have some kind of. that's every chess player no you don't. have like because you know some chess. like uh computer games you can do all. kinds of skins and like yeah like fancy. stuff you don't have anything sadly i. don't have like a cool 3d warrior mode. on it's just a chess baseboard in my. head. because you don't yeah you can't use. your brain power for adding colors to it. because you already have to keep track. of the pieces it's one board at a time. yes okay the current position yeah i bet. every chest i wonder if there's any who.

there's certain players who are really. good and they can even play blindfold. chess and play multiple games at the. same time um. so i would be curious how they do it but. usually when you're thinking of one game. that's the only one. in your mind yeah but you have to do. this operation where you move one piece. you're doing like the branch analysis. like yeah. and so. uh you still have to somehow visualize. the the branching process. um and not forget stuff maybe that's.

like constant memory recall or something. you're always looking one board at a. time but and you're also oh because. you're also looking in the future yeah. yeah and then you have to backtrack. you're keeping the position in your. memory so you're remembering where all. the pieces are and then you're playing. it out on one board and then you can. come back to the initial one that you. started with that you kind of just keep. in your brain and it's also easier to. come back to it once you've played a. position from it. i feel like it's that.

memory recall. that gets you to blunder so i'll like. see that i'm being attacked by certain. things. but then because i get so exhausted. thinking about a different thing i. forget i actually forget about an entire. branch of things that i was supposed to. be worried about it happens very often. yeah if you spend a bunch of time. calculating in a position let's say like. when you're really in trouble and you're. spending 15 20 minutes calculating. you'll forget about something that you. spotted like oh if i do these two three.

moves i'll walk into a trap because. you've looked at so many lines and then. you play it and then you see it and. you're like oh i i looked at it and i. saw it but i forgot about it yeah. it's often called tunneling where you're. just looking so deeply on one thing you. forget about the rest of the board. and it's the worst when at least in a. beginner level there's like a. i don't know a bishop just sitting there. obviously attacking your like queen or. something and then you just forget that. bishop exists. because if they just sit there for a few. moves and don't move.

you just forget their existence and then. it's just yeah that's that's definitely. very embarrassing well it happens to. everyone so. yes. um. okay cool. okay so. we see a few trades happening on the. queen side where he had to go for those. otherwise he's in trouble um and this is. where the game oh sorry. this is where he gets excited yeah so so. knight h4 is really when the sacrifice. starts. and. here.

the two important pawns are the ones in. front of the king because they're. helping with the entire defense and. ikaro is actually preparing to sacrifice. his knight for a pawn. just so that he can continue his attack. and open up the position because if you. don't do that here as black and don't. get some kind of attack you are. completely lost on the queen side and. also you've pushed all of your own king. side pawns so you're going to be in. danger so it's one of those do or die. moments oh okay so that that's what. makes it all in because the king is wide. open yeah yeah the king is wide open and.

you all of white's pieces are pointed. towards the queen side too where you're. also cramped so it's the attack. primarily by black done by the two pawns. and then and the knight and the light. squared bishop is always extremely. important so you don't want to trade. this in the king's indian because it's. very helpful for a lot of attacks. even though it's on the other side of. the board i guess it can go all the way. across in in. like i i'm not sure what it's doing here. but probably threatening like for. example if if it was another move black. could have played would be something.

like bishop h3 where if you take the. bishop you actually get mated on g2. with what so let's say you take here and. then you could push the pawn and then it. would be checkmate. so you're kind of using your bishop to. sacrifice. against whites. king side pawns. yeah i'll be freaking out if the bishop. did that exactly what are they up to. right and that's the thing this position. looks very scary as white because all of. black's pawns are starting to come. towards you and it's one of those things. where.

humans do start to worry in these. positions whereas computers obviously. can just calculate the best line and. maybe the attack doesn't go through so. you're saying the computer might say. that the white is actually a slight. favorite here yeah especially exactly. okay so then uh. white makes a little bit of room by. moving the rook right and the attack. begins. i like the commentary here. then the knight um the knight is hugging. the king and actually white can't even. take the king here because then h4 and. h3 is coming in i can't take the knight.

yeah did i say king yes thank you the. knight well why can't take the knight. because why um so if white takes the. knight here then black starts pushing. his pawn to h4 with h3 incoming and the. idea of trying to defend against this. is. it looks very difficult so why just. choose it it'd be cool to watch a chess. game to experience watching it without. understanding it just for a day i feel. like i could use that to make better. content true um.

okay i mean that's what getting drunk. does it. start unfortunately for chess players it. never leaves you. doesn't matter how but this is actually. a very cute move because black's queen. is under attack. but the king is so cramped that he can't. actually take it or he's going to get. checkmated by a pawn which is a sad way. to go truly yeah those pawns are doing a. lot of work here that is the king's. indian this is the king's indian player. attack of the king side pawns. yeah these pawns are like uh right so.

they're the ones that are doing a lot of. the threatening right and they're also. opening up the position to bring more of. the pieces in but that. the pawns kind of help break open the. king side but they can't checkmate by. themselves so after the pawns come in. that's when you need to start bringing. in pieces as well which you will see uh. hikaru do here okay there you go he puts. more sacrifices so this was actually. another beautiful sacrifice in the game. um. but then puts the king in check with the. pawn right that and the pawn is going to.

be given here for free but the idea is. you're giving your own peace because you. want to have more space and open up the. king which is what you're always trying. to do when you have a king side you're. trying to remove as many of the king's. defenders as you can without giving up. too much and then you have a ton of. pieces on the king's side for black. just waiting to. exactly to do harm and then uh and. notice how every single move white is. getting attacked like they're just never. getting a break black just keeps. throwing all their so it's funny that.

black's queen has been hanging for like. three moves now and white still can't do. anything about it yeah so rock puts the. king in check yep the king runs. and then again we leave the queen. hanging and you develop a piece the. slight squared bishop that's so. important and you're once again. threatening checkmate on g2. and then bishop's coming to yeah again. the queen hanging i think and i mean the. game is just so beautiful the amount of. calculation hikaru put into this.

position it feels like so much is in. danger right it's so interesting. and uh knight takes what upons so now. his queen is attacked twice. and. he doesn't care he takes the bishop and. he's still threatening the checkmate on. g2. and then the queen takes the bishop yep. so now he's defending against g2. and black just goes and grabs some. material back here so here black is.

already is winning. well he ends up winning a night here. because black had to be so much on the. defensive he's just taking pieces yeah i. mean at this point you're up two whole. pieces so. you would yeah exactly but. and queen. queen. and then you take. and then the rook takes. and. there's not as much of an attack on the. king anymore but hikaru is up a knight. here which is gg.

yeah what's the correct way of of of. saying that because i was i played uh. albus i played him in chess and then i. quickly realized. like from his facial expressions that i. should have like. stopped playing oh it was like it's. already set yeah and then he's like. like this is the good time to like give. up right you're not going to get to. checkmate where like this you know he. could see like the checkmate is like. five or seven moves away or something.

this and uh what's the play. usually you have to resign if you're in. a position or you should. through chess etiquette resign when. you're in a position where. your opponent is definitely going to win. out of respect like if you're a piece. down. um and obviously all top grand masters. do that the only people who don't do. that is kids because their coaches play. until they get their coaches always tell. them never resign and they'll be in. hopelessly lost positions playing.

against like two rooks a king and they. only have their soul king but they're. still playing on so that's a position. where it's obvious they can't win. because the kids might make errors yeah. and so might as well. that was the interesting thing about i. think game six of the previous world. championship with magnus was it the one. where he beat nap yeah the first time he. beat him where was like. he said that. i don't know how often you come across. this kind of situation he said the. engines predict the draw. yeah.

but. that doesn't mean that it's going to be. a draw so you play on. hoping that you take a person into i. mean this is i guess an endgame thing. you take them to deep water and they. make a positional mistake or something i. don't i don't know when. like he from his gut knows that this is. supposed to be a draw but he still plays. on yeah i mean. that is one where it could theoretically. be a draw but it could be very hard to. defend because it's a hard technique to. know as a human and especially in that.

game i know that uh nepo was also in. time pressure which makes it even harder. so in situations like that you should. always continue it's more where an. engine would give you something like. plus 10 or something where it's not just. clearly a win but anybody would know how. to win and that's where you're usually. supposed to resign. so what do you find beautiful about this. game is it the uh. the the attacking chess and just the the. asymmetry of it it's the asymmetry. and it's the fact that this is the dream.

for the king's indian uh where you're. able to get a beautiful attack and. there's also those two really nice. sacrifices where. black just continuously kept putting. pressure on white's king to the point. where he was able to win material. and the best part of it is that if the. attack didn't work out black would have. been completely lost. how often does that happen by the way. like as an attacking player you like how. often do you put yourself in the. position of like. i'm screwed unless this works out on an.

online chest more than i should and it's. usually when i sacrifice i know it's. either gonna work or i'm lost. and those are the most fun. positions to play usually but in. tournaments if you're doing a sacrifice. you're playing it with 100 confidence. because you're taking the time to. calculate it but yeah when you have. three minutes you don't have time so you. take a whim and you follow your. intuition or you find out later or. you're very confident it'll work and you. haven't calculated all the way until the.

end but you've calculated to the point. where you have enough in exchange for. the sack and you think you could play. that position uh how do you train chess. these days. what's um. do you practice do you do deliberate. practice i mean you're in this tough. position because you're also a creator. and educator and entertainer. so. do you try to put in time of like daily. practice. i don't train chess anymore when i'm. focusing on creating i do if i'm.

preparing for a tournament but back in. the day i would train very tournament. very seriously for tournaments and. the way it would work is i do opening. preparation for a specific tournament. because that's when you really need to. have those lines memorized and you could. also prepare for specific opponents and. i would do tactics to make sure i stay. sharp so those are the two things i. would do every single day for a. tournament and then mix up the rest with. like maybe some end games maybe some. positional chess so what does tactics uh. preparation looks like do you do like a.

puzzle. like uh like a random puzzle thing. yeah i would just train puzzles for at. least like 30 to 60 minutes or books and. sometimes you were. and there's different kinds of puzzles. one you could train for pattern. recognition where you're supposed to go. through them very quickly and that's. just so that when you're playing the. game if your mind is tired it's still. keeping. track of things a little bit more easily. and then there's where you're practicing. your combination and those sometimes. take like 20 minutes to find because you. have to just calculate a lot and it's.

more like making sure that you've. trained with that muscle but andrea is. actually very good at. finding ways to balance and still study. while also doing content yeah so what. you're able to do both. that's the hard thing i was getting very. irritated with content because i'm very. competitive i don't like playing chess. if i'm losing and if you're talking and. entertaining you're going to be losing. more games than winning so then i. started doing more training streams. where i'd bring on my coach. and one of the things that i wanted to. add to alex is training repertoire so i.

do i would do daily puzzles every time. i'm streaming which helped me a lot even. if it's like there's this thing on. chess.com called puzzle rush where you. have three minutes and you just do. puzzle after puzzle where they get. incrementally harder. um and it's just a really good way to. build your pattern recognition. especially when you're rusty so i would. do that until i hit a high score and i. wouldn't play any blitz until i hit the. score that i want um but that's kind of. more like the fun part of chess studying. the very important one is actually.

analyzing your losses and your. tournament games. and first you sit and you look through. your mistake yourself and try to see if. you can find the better moves and then. that's why you would check over with a. computer to see if you're right. so game analysis is also very important. which i try to do remember to give a. shout out i listened to a couple of. episodes of the perpetual chess podcast. which is pretty pretty good but what. with the whatever i listen to i remember. the per it's um. i think they really focus on.

like teaching people. how to train yeah how to play how to. train all that kind of stuff uh they do. like uh. yeah i'm looking now adult improver so. basically. like how do regular noobs get better at. chess yeah uh one of the things they one. of the person that said i think he's the. grandmaster but he said uh. to maximize the amount of time you spend. every day of like. basically as you were saying like. suffering so like. you it's not about the like you should.

be thinking you should be doing. calculating so it's the opposite of what. magnus said like. you should be doing a lot of time it. doesn't matter what the puzzle is or. whatever the hell you're doing but you. should be like doing that difficult. calculation that's how you get better. yeah it really depends what you're. training because i used to think the. same but it depends what you're weak. you're at because if you're doing the. really difficult puzzles you're training. for like visualization and calculating. more moves ahead than you typically. would which maybe you wouldn't get into. that as often in a regular game because.

typically you run into like three to. four tactics which are actually the. easier and more fun ones to solve so it. really depends and on top of that as a. hobbyist your motivation is very. different than when you're playing from. a young age and have pretty high. competitive ambition. and. a lot of people who are new to chess. you could basically work on anything and. still improve. so if you're focusing on something you. like you're probably going to stick to. it more and be more consistent which i.

think is more helpful long term what was. the most embarrassing loss. of your career. i had so many flashbacks but i'm so glad. it's a question for andrea i like that. you specified you know it's funny. because. i mean because you said you're so. competitive and like yeah no i could. tell just even from the way you said it. that. like you hate losing yeah i mean that. was the reason i hated chess in high. school because it'd always be like but.

okay there's many traumatizing losses. whereas you're like you're top three. you're running for first and then you. throw a game you shouldn't but and this. shouldn't hurt my ego as much as it does. um but it's always kids. or when i was a high school girl it's. the younger boys who are really cocky. and when they win they start rubbing it. in your face and they're yawning and. looking around when like. 90 of the game you were destroying them. and you had this one tiny mistake and. now their ego is huge um but i'll never. forget i was playing like for a chess.

scholarship um and i was it was. tiebreaker for first and i think i lost. to a 12 year old girl who couldn't even. use the scholarship but she beat me in. one first place and she got some other. prize um so yeah i was losing to that. little girl who's literally like 2 300. now so. makes sense all right you keep telling. yourself that what do you think because. do you think caspar was feeling that. when he was playing 13 year old magnus. like yeah why as much as it's a beauty. of the sport that any age can be.

brilliant any demographic anything. um i feel like when you're adults and. you're paired against the kid it's just. hard not to let it get to key and it. depends maybe if they're a really sweet. kid but most times i play kids they're. just really arrogant and but i don't. think they do it intentionally because. they're kids i mean there is a certain. etiquette thing where like like you said. yawning and in general like it's not. kids there's no etiquette yeah yeah. yeah the kids traumatized me too i was. playing in vegas and. it was not even my opponent it was the.

board next to me and the kid was at. least 10 years old made 12 max and he. was playing against an adult and he. takes out his hand and he starts doing a. fake phone to which the kid studying. sitting across diagonally picks up their. banana and starts talking like it's a. phone and they're just mouthing words. why their two adult opponents are. thinking intensely at the game and then. i see the adult look up look at the kid. just making banana phones and then. destroying his eyes as he sighs.

yeah and they're not even doing for. trash talking no no they're just. bored kids yes exactly what was the. because you you played a bunch of uh. people for for your channel uh what was. the most like memorable what's the most. fun most intense. there's a bunch of fun ones you've. played kids before some trash talking. kids. that sounds great. they trash talk kids yeah nothing like a. loser 12 year old who then starts doing. a fortnight dance yeah. so that that actually happened that did.

happen he he is uh you know a very young. master i think he became master when he. was like nine years old or something and. he's very good at chess and doing a lot. of training but he's also incredibly. good at trash talking and he beat me one. game and he stood up and he started. doing the fortnite dance. so you know you gotta just swallow your. pride in those moments what is that. culture of like street chess players it. seems it seems pretty interesting like. um. i don't know that seems to be. celebrating the beauty of the game it's.

the trash talking but also having fun. with it but also taking it seriously. and you've done a few of those did you. go to new york yeah in union square park. washington square what was that like. it's such a unique place i haven't seen. it anywhere else in the us where people. are just. professional chess hustlers even if. they're not necessarily you know a top. player but they play chess every single. day and so many of them learned chess by.

themselves and never had a professional. coach so they are quite good at it. they're also very tight-knit they all. know each other and it's a very social. thing where you're not just playing. chess it's the experience of getting to. know this person who's a. very much a personality and they talk to. you they could either give you tips or. they can be really chatty and talk to. you during so it's a chess experience. rather than just playing a game do you. tell them like what your rating is or do. you just let people just like. both ways do you discover how good the.

actual the person actually initially i. loved going and not telling people my. rating and just surprising them and and. winning games but now we've gone so many. times that they just know us so we can't. get away with it anymore one time. actually i don't know if i should share. this but one time. we dressed up as grandmothers and we had. prosthetics on our face yeah and i think. they still recognized us. yeah it's probably the. there's other components like probably. the trash talk and all that it was. actually no it was funny we were talking.

like grandmothers but it was the way i. held. it was the way grandmother didn't talk. like you don't want it. oh. okay what were your names what were the. code names oh my god i think it was edna. edna and i had a really uh i can't. remember the other one. but it was embarrassing because we were. walking so slowly and andrea dropped her. cane or something at one point then. people in the park they were able to. help her we felt so happy.

but but yeah it was funny because they. didn't know it was us until he saw the. way i reached for my pond and he said. the way you held your pawn i knew it was. you it was like such a sneesh thing that. was what blew the grandma cover. uh yeah do you have a style of how you. play physically. is that i didn't think we did until. grandma went to play chess but yeah i've. never thought about that yeah i think. our style is just trash talking now. it's style is very if you're talking. about style on and youtube and twitch we.

definitely have a distinctive style. what's that what's your distinction i'm. just talking shit. but not going too far no no definitely. that's that's definitely going to if. it's us two against each other oh we we. trash talk each other so hard so and i. love looking at andrea. as she's annoyed and the satisfaction i. get when that happens. how many times do you play against each. other on online publicly i think i've. seen a couple of games played a lot of.

times we try not to do it too often. because it's repetitive but every now. and then when we haven't done it for a. while we'll go at it again what do you. mean repetitive is like is that implied. trash talk right there no it just we we. place similar openings so you just start. seeing the same position you offer each. other every time. andrea is really good at opening so i. just start playing bad openings to get. her out of her preparation because i. don't like opening theory very much i. just like playing the game and getting. into middle. games and end games but yeah typically. the only time we're playing each other. is when we're setting up in the park and.

we don't have opponents yet and we need. content so we just play each other until. people show up but we always put stakes. on the line which makes it more very. interesting because otherwise it. wouldn't be fun to play each other if. there's no stakes where's where is the. most fun place you've you've played is. in new york i think so and it was. actually when we set up in times square. one night we just brought a table with. us and chess and it's not even where. people usually play chess but it was. so lively there were all of the lights. out and so many people just kept.

stopping by to play chess and it was. really one of my favorite streams just. the opposite of like the classical chess. world it's super loud there's music. there's cars there's street dancers even. some naked people walking around who we. had to be careful not to get banned yeah. but i honestly really like the chaotic. environments for chess games because i. think it's a good way to break more into. the mainstream culture and make it. entertaining and appealing to anyone who. doesn't know anything about chess. and also in an authentic way because. it's what we really like about chess. when you're just enjoying the game but.

also the atmosphere and the people who. you're playing with and that's one of. the things that i think you see less. when you're just thinking of chess as a. competitive thing. you've uh you mentioned a few other. games like the bobby fischer games the. candidates match the game of the century. which i feel like is a is a weird game. to call the game of the century when. there's still like a few decades left in. the century but yeah i mean it wasn't an. official thing it was just the chess. journalist on a chess article but it.

stuck if you look yeah no it didn't. wikipedia this is all i do research-wise. because there's so that particular one. was. a 13 year old fisher. and he did a queen sacrifice. i wonder is it there's that movie. searching for bobby fisher was that. related because didn't have a young. somebody who's supposed to be kind of. like bobby fischer played by josh. wadeskin yeah i think he ended up being. an international master it wasn't based. on bobby fischer was based on another. player but i liked how they told it.

through the lens of being inspired by. bobby fischer do you remember that game. of like why do you think it was dubbed. the game of the century it was just. journalists being like i i think part of. it was the atmosphere where you have the. us junior champion who's this 13 year. old nobody and it's the first time he's. playing in a very competitive landscape. against some of the top american players. and he goes up against an international. master so somebody who's a lot stronger. than he is who's played in you know.

olympiads for the american team he's. having a bad tournament but then he has. this one game where he just shows off. his uh tactical prowess and plays. incredibly well and i don't know if this. is true but in the paper clippings of it. they'd say things like grandmasters were. by the board and they would say things. like oh bobby is lost in this position. what is he doing but there's this 13. year old kid who's just playing. incredibly well and then that also. happened before. bobby's started really rapidly improving.

at chess not that people knew that but. he kind of seemed like a rising star so. i think the game was beautiful but i. also think the idea of a 13 year old kid. coming out from nowhere and beating a. top american player was very fascinating. and there was aggressive chess and it. was in the interesting ideas. um yeah taking big risks it's cool to. see a 13 year old do that yeah. uh what about the you you mentioned that. his match against uh. mark. taimana from their 71 candidates match. was interesting in some way why is it.

interesting to you. i'm move 45 i'm looking at some notes. this is with the bishop e3 i think i. know which one you're talking about um. it's. i wouldn't say. a lot of these games on these lists i. think are really great combinations that. that. when tactics come into play which is. what we're talking about but they're. very good at exemplifying lessons. this is why you study famous games so. you can apply these lessons to your own.

games and i think the main takeaway for. this one was they were punishing their. opponent from steering away from opening. principles which is something that we. learned a little earlier. where he delayed the development of his. king and put his queen out a little bit. too exposed so bobby fischer immediately. punished that and then there was just. like a beautiful combination where it. was like a. 12 in a row perfect moves which was a. tactic just winning the game but it only. came from punishing those mistakes the.

mistake being bringing the queen out. bringing the queen out and yeah not. castling your king right away. and these were just like opening. principles that now they're written in. books but but for books you would study. these principles by studying games. and also. i'm looking at some notes his dominance. during the candidates tournament was. unprecedented. he swept two top grand masters i mean. that guy's meteor cries is incredible. sad that i think at whatever in his 20s.

he then quit chess. one has to wonder what. where he could have gone. yeah it is sad that. we lost such a brilliant mind so early. on and it's also sad i think kind of. what ended up happening in his life and. the slowly going crazier is there some. aspect of chess that. opens the door to crazy. like like how challenging it is on you. the stress the anxiety of it. the isolation and being isolation yeah.

this is a very lonely sport it is even. to you guys since you both play it it's. still lonely the experience of it it was. when i was competing a lot i think the. crazy part of it for me was how obsessed. you can get about a board game where. you're optimizing your entire life to. beat another person at you know pushing. wooden pieces across the board and it. doesn't necessarily translate to other. things and the fact that so many people. spend so much of their life on it but.

you can also spend so much of your life. because it's so deep and so interesting. and i mean i've definitely experienced. moments where. i didn't want to do anything but chess. and i had that before. i went to college where i just wanted to. take a gap year and focus on chess. because. i still i went to high school we moved a. lot there was always other things going. on so i felt like i could never really. focus on chess. and the one time i could by taking a gap. year i ended up not doing because my.

parents really wanted me to go to. university right away but i think maybe. if i had taken that gap year i don't. know if i would have gone back to school. so maybe it wasn't a bad thing i also. say that's pretty universal i think if. you want to be that the best at anything. you do or any sport you have to be that. level of obsessed so i don't know if. that's only chess. well some things some obsessions are. more transferable to a balanced social. life. that is like healthy development yeah. chess is a lot less social than most. other sports yeah there's something. deeply isolating about this game i mean.

the the great chess players i've met i. mean they. it's like it's really competitive too. and there's. something that. you're almost non-stop. paranoid about. blundering. at every level and that develops a. person who's really anxious about losing. versus someone who like deeply enjoys. perfection or winning and so on it's. just this constant paranoia about losing.

maybe i'm like misinterpreting it but um. that gets that that creates a huge. amount of stress. over like thousands of games. especially in a young person. and. that blundering is such a painful. experience because. you could be playing a game that you've. played for five six hours and you have. one lapse in focus and you blunder and. you throw the entire game away and. sometimes not just the entire game but. the entire tournament now you can't. place or do anything anymore so you just.

feel those mistakes so strongly yeah. there's no one to blame but yourself. are you as hard on yourself have you. have you been. about losing like before you became. super famous for streaming where you. could be like well fuck this at least i. can. i can so i was really hard on myself and. i went to play a tournament in canada to. try to qualify for the olympiad team. and. i was like well i'm an adult now i'm not. gonna feel emotional if i lose and then.

i got there on the first day i think i. was ranked like fourth in canada for for. females. um and how long ago was this this was. like uh earlier in the year actually. and i go and i lose to somebody lower. rated on the first day and i think it. was because i had blundered and i went. back to my room and i was like i am not. an adult i'm not eating i'm not leaving. this room i feel terrible and i know i. shouldn't but it just cuts so deep um.

and then i actually ended up qualifying. for the olympiad team but i didn't want. to play because i didn't have enough. time to train and the losses are so. painful that i was like it's not worth. it. yeah it's in high school and growing up. i was i just remember weekends and i i. think being competitive in any sport. again probably people relate to this. versus like spending weekends crying and. even like alex said like punishing. yourself because you're disappointed in. yourself because you fight so hard and. you prepare and you study and you're. like oh. i. yeah but that's once again on the right.

side though when. you're studying so hard and after like a. four hour game and you actually are on. the opposite end and you win you feel. like such a huge rush of dopamine and. serotonin and you're like on a high from. the wind so there's also plus sides or. you can turn this around but yeah like. alex said like losing after preparing. for something and fighting on hours and. hours is the worst feeling in the world. did you ever get anything like that with. martial arts. yeah so you know wrestling i wrestled.

all through high school in middle school. definitely so it's an individual sport i. did a lot of individual sport tennis. those kinds of things. but i think even with wrestling and. tennis you're still on a team right you. can still like. there's still a camaraderie there i feel. like with chess especially go on your. own with the tournaments like it you. really are alone but i i mean i always. personally just had us like a very. self-critical mind in general i would. not that's one of the reasons i decided. not to play chess. because uh i think when i was really.

young i met. somebody uh. who was able to play blindfold chess. yeah they were teaching me they were. laying in there on the couch trash. drinking and smoking. and they were sounds like a russian yeah. exactly um there are now a faculty. somewhere in the united states i forget. where but. he um. making jokes talking to others and he. would move the pieces. like he would yell across the room. and i remember.

thinking that. if a person is able to do that. then that kind of world you can live in. inside your mind that becomes the chess. board to me that meant like the chess. board is not just out here it could be. in here and you could do these beauty. you can create these beautiful patterns. in your mind. i thought like. i. had such a strong pull towards that. or where i had to decide either i'm. gonna dedicate everything to this. or not. uh you can't do half-assed and then i.

that's when i decided. um to walk away from it because i had so. much other beautiful things in my life i. loved mathematics i loved just. everything was beautiful to me i thought. chess. would pull me all in. and. there was nothing like it i think in my. whole life since then i think it's such. a dangerous addiction. it's such a beautiful addiction but it's. a dangerous one depending on what your. mind is like it reminds me of something. i thought of. before i stopped competing as much and.

i'd look at people and think. imagine being. so intelligent that you could become a. grand master and yet only spending the. rest of your life being a grandmaster. because it's one of those things where. it does require a lot of mental power. but by doing chess you're not going to. be able to explore other subjects deeply. yeah and not in a way that is is bad. necessarily more in admiration and. wondering what else could have been. because i've just seen people get to. these levels of obsession where it's all.

they want to do and they're grandmasters. but they're not even top players so. they're never going to make a living out. of it they'll make like maybe 30 40k. your max they can't even focus on their. competitive chess because they have to. supplement it by you know teaching and. doing things they don't like and it's. just because of how strong of an. obsession it can be because it truly is. very intellectually rewarding. and i think that's what people are. addicted to and the self-improvement but. you can get that from a lot of other. things as well. well i think for me what i was inspired.

by that stuck with me is that. a human being could be. so good. at. one thing. right to me that person on the college. drinking so on i. i assumed he was the best chess player. in the world like that to be able to. play inside your head right. uh. it just felt like a feat that's. incredible and so i. fell in love with the idea that i hope. to be something like that in my life at. something it's it would be pretty cool. to be really good at one thing and like.

life in some sense is a search for the. things. that you could be that good at i didn't. even think about like how much money. does it make or any of that. is can i fall in love with something. and make it a life pursuit where i can. be damn good at it and the being damn. good at it. is the source of enjoyment not. not like um. not to win because you want to win a. tournament or win because. uh. like you just want to be better somebody. else no it's for the beauty of the game.

itself or the beauty of the activity. itself and then you realize that that's. one of the compelling things about chess. it is a game with rules and you can win. if you want to be really damn good in. some aspect of life like that. it's. it's harder. it's a harder and weirder pursuit don't. you feel like you kind of did that with. computer science or ai related things. like getting that level of. damn good. that's one of the cool things about. ai and.

robotics or intellectual pursuits or. scientific pursuits is you can spend. until you're 80 doing it so i'm in the. early days of that one of the thing. reasons i came to texas. one of the reasons. i didn't want to pursue an academic. career at mit. is i want to build. a company. and so that i'm in the early days of. that ai company and so it's an open. world to see if i'm actually going to be. good at it but the thing that's. there. that i've been cognizant of my whole.

life is that i have a passion for it. something within me. draws me to that thing and you have to. listen to that. to that voice so with chess. you're fucked unless you like early on. are really training really hard. i think life is more forgiving. you can be you can be world-class at a. thing after. after making a lot of mistakes. and after spending the first. few decades of your life doing something. completely different in chess it's like.

um it's like an olympic sport like. there's no. perfection is a requirement as a. necessity. what do you think is that pursuit for. you. like why did you decide to stream. what what drew you i like these. questions that were really getting deep. yeah this is like a therapy session i. mean what um isn't it terrifying to be. in front of a camera. well it's terrifying to be in front of. five cameras instead of corrections six.

six okay more terrifying for me oh yeah. try to remember. if i actually turn them all i'm like i. mentioned to you off mike i'm still. suffering from a bit of ptsd after. uh screwing up a recording of magnus i i. uh he had to console me because. that was the thing is i. felt okay you want to you want to build. robots. if you can't get a camera to even run. correctly. how are you going to do anything else in.

life oh no don't let it spiral like that. it was it was spiraling hard yeah and i. was just laying there and just just. feeling sorry for myself but i think. that feeling by the way. and a small tangent is really useful. like yeah i feel like a lot of growing. happens when you feel shitty as long. as long as you can get out of it like. don't let it spiral like indefinitely. but just feeling really really shitty. about everything in my life like i was. having an existential crisis like how i. how will i be able to do anything at all.

like this you're a giant failure all. those kinds of negative voices. um but i think i made some good. decisions in the in the week after that. do you think you couldn't have made. those decisions if you were less hard on. yourself. me personally. no i'm too lazy. okay so you really need to be angry at. yourself enough to go and do whatever. yeah it's not even angry it's just upset. of being self-critical like. also for me personally because i don't.

have. proclivities for depression. i. have a lot more uh room to feel. extremely shitty about myself. uh so. if you if you're somebody that can get. stuck in that place like clinically. depressed you have to be really really. careful you have to notice the triggers. you don't want to get into that place. but for me. just looking empirically feeling shitty. has always been. productive. like it makes me long-term happier.

ultimately it makes me more grateful to. be alive it helps me grow all those. kinds of things so i kind of. uh. embrace it otherwise i feel like i will. never do anything i have to feel shitty. but that's not a thing. i prescribed to others there's a there's. a famous professor at mit his name is. marvin minsky. and uh when he was giving advice about. like to the students. he said the secret to my success was. that i always hated everything.

uh i did in in the past. so always sort of being self-critical. about everything you've accomplished. never really take a moment of gratitude. and i think for a lot of people that. hear that that's not good you should be. you should like take a pause and be. grateful but it really worked for him so. you know it's a choice you have to make. it reminds me of the quote be happy but. never satisfied. where. you can have a positive spin and still. want to improve yourself.

but yeah um. like uh when did you decide to take a. step in the spotlight that terrifying. spotlight of the internet. it was actually my senior year of. college and i was really busy with work. and school. and chess was kind of like this lost. love and the interesting thing is that. the longer i don't play chess the more i. kind of miss playing it casually and. enjoy it more because then i start. looking at it with fresh eyes. but i didn't have time to play.

tournaments so. i started streaming online because it. was more social than just playing. strangers on the internet without. knowing anything about who they are. and. i started slowly growing a community and. got in touch with chess.com pretty. quickly too so then it was this hobby. that i would do once a week every. thursday at 8pm and it was one of the. things that brought me a lot of joy and. actually i. speaking of depression did struggle for. with you know at least 10 years of my.

life and it was one of those things. where. chess and streaming was such a. distraction and it brought me such great. joy. that i just kept doing it because i. really really liked it um and then. i was working on something that didn't. pan out and decided to go and take a. risk and just stream full-time which. you know seemed a little bit weird at. the moment but was that terrifying that. leap. it was terrifying but i had taken so.

many terrifying leaps in the past and. they didn't and you know the last two. hadn't worked out but i was like well. i'll get it eventually. so somehow having failed before and. going through failure and knowing that. it'll be okay. made me more likely to just try. something that was a very very weird job. goodbye camera i thought it died yeah. the the camera that we don't need it oh. but one of the things luckily we have. another five yeah i know. like this is where this triggers the.

spiral alexis. it's still it's still somehow awake um. is there advice you can give about. the dark places you've gone in your mind. the depression you suffered from how to. get out from your own from your own. story. whenever i go to those really dark. places the scariest thing is that it. feels like i will never get rid of this. feeling and it is very overwhelming.

and. i just have to kind of. look back over. time spans and remember that every. single time i have got through it and. remind myself that it is just temporary. and that has been the most helpful thing. for me because i just try to combat the. scariest thing about it. and then believe have faith that it's. gonna. like this will go away and take action. obviously to make sure it goes away and. i've also tried to spin it as depression. is one of the hardest things i've had to.

deal with but also one of the biggest. motivators because. if i just am left with my own brain i. get very depressed then i really like. working or focusing on things so it. actually pushed me to you know try to. focus on school try to focus on chess. focus on whatever i'm doing and also if. i'm feeling really bad then there's. probably something a little bit off and. i use it as a signal and try to think of. it as okay this is just a sign that. there's things that could be improved. for long term what about you andrea have. you gone to dark places in your mind.

i'd say i. my family like like i see alex going. through this my mom also has very. serious depression luckily i got the. genes where i don't go through that. serious. level of depression that they do i say. mine is much more temporarily so it's. more similar to what what i was feeling. when i was exactly feeling shitty here. he is yes exactly where like but i know. that it's not something that's clinical. and that's. just a. genetic thing or a mental thing where as.

i know it's more serious for like my. family members um and i did relate a lot. with you where you're saying where that. really pushes you and i felt that a lot. through content where you just kind of. feel hopeless. and kind of like an existential crisis. where i don't like the content i'm doing. and that's what pushes me to like okay. you have no choice but to try something. that now you're going to be passionate. about because otherwise you're going to. be stuck in this never-ending cycle um. so it does it's short-term and then um. it helps me come up with the things that. i enjoy the most content-wise and it.

also long-term taught me just how to. have a more balanced life like doing. small things that make me happier on a. daily basis to like working out to. eating healthier which i notice when i. don't do for weeks i just get a lot more. depressed. what has playing chess. taught you about life. has. hasn't made you better at life in any. kind of way or has it made you worse you. know a lot of people kind of romanticize. the idea that chess is kind of like life. or life is kind of like chess. and becoming better at making decisions.

on the chess board is going to make you. better at making decisions in life is. there some truth to that. i always shy away from these comparisons. with. chess and life. um. because yeah it has both positives and. negatives so one thing it really helps. develop from an early age is having an. analytical mind but then you could also. get like paralysis of analysis where. you've just thought of everything to. death and you're moving too slowly when. you just have to keep going forward.

because there's not a great path ahead. so it's more like exercising your brain. and. staying sharp and then also applying. that to other things whereas if instead. of playing chess or watching tv or. something like that you'd probably end. up being less sharp. yeah i used to. in high school i'd always preach like ah. chess transfers for life skills at. college i would teach. i taught chess for juvenile department. for special education school i had site. studies in prisons where like oh playing.

chess helped them with x and for your. kids it helps with teamwork and thinking. over life choices and now that i'm older. i don't believe in any of that bs but. um i do think that the process of. working really hard at something which. takes really long to see results and you. have to be really dedicated and like i. remember in high school and in middle. school well all my friends they were. having fun on the weekends and i'd have. to be there studying towers of chess a. day and knowing one day will pay off but. for like two three years nothing paid.

off kind of learning that type of. patience with anything it's like you. know like getting a real job i can't say. i ever really worked a real job in my. life since i went straight into. streaming and i got to work for myself. but i'd say it's. what people go to college for like they. learn how to live in the real world and. i'd say that that's what chess taught me. as a kid. when you're streaming when you're when. you're doing the the creative work do. you feel lonely so a bunch of creators. talk about sort of the.

it's it's counterintuitive because. you're famous now. but it's you know. sort of not quite but. we're very lucky to have each other so. is that the source of the the comfort. and the. like is there some sense where it's. isolating. to have these personalities they have to. do to always be having fun being wild. and so on. or is it actually the opposite like is. it a source of comfort to know that. there's so many cool people out there. that are giving you their love and.

it started as a source of comfort. because it started with a very small. community who would be something it. would be around 200 to 300 viewers and. you know only like 30 to 40 of them. would actually chat actively so you felt. like it was a community not an audience. so you like knew them personally almost. yeah exactly and it was people who were. interested in chess um and i would. really enjoy that and then as you know. we started growing bigger the audience. kind of changed where.

they're not there for you personally. they're there while you're entertaining. um and it. changed for me and i ended up being a. lot more self-conscious of things online. and started even thinking of myself more. like a product than a human being when. i'm online because i had to brand yes. exactly otherwise you just start taking. everything personally that people. comment about you and it's based off of. very small. i see so it was almost a kind of a. defense mechanism exactly.

and it took time to get enough. because even if you have tough skin. eventually it gets to you when you're. online every single day listening to you. know thousands of people's feedback on. you. i think the loneliest part of being. creator is going through burnout which. everyone is just it's bound to happen um. which is why i think we're very lucky. that we have each other because right. it's a numbers game and you're viral and. trendy at one point and then you have to. fall and then there's months where. you're just grinding and i just every.

day i'm like andrea we're relevant. that's that's really like the worst part. of being creative and figuring out how. to get over that hump but makes me very. grateful that i have my sister because i. know that i'm not the only person going. through it um and. yeah i know that most of my creator. friends feel very lonely in that process. because they don't have someone who's. their family and their business partner. and they're working by each other side. by side you kind of tie in your. self-worth to your job and your content. and maybe even more extremely than other.

jobs because you also are. the entire company in the entire product. so when things are going well or when. things are not you just need to be. careful to not reflect like oh i am. doing bad i am better other than the. trends have now changed there's outside. things we're going to keep going and. this is just the normal waves which is. how we think about it now and also just. about are we enjoying it this is this. what we want to make but. we were stuck in the the camp for a. while when we. 10xed our viewership um after the. pandemic because people were home and.

playing chess and then of course that. dropped by like 70 and then you see that. and you're trying your best um and you. just kind of have to deal with it and be. like okay i'm just gonna keep. persevering and maybe it'll get better. that's so fascinating i mean this is a. struggle. of sorts in the 21st century. of like. how to be an artist how to be a creator. how to be an interesting mind. in response to this algorithm i'm. telling you turning off views and likes. is really good i don't look at twitch.

views for that reason and i get obsessed. with the numbers too and i know andrea. does but for me. what i try now is to be more focused in. the moment but andreas somehow can do it. even with the views. so you just you get you have fun with it. it's like ooh number one i'm too much of. like a given to the temporary. satisfaction like i like seeing i'd like. knowing that if something happens right. now viewership's going to boost by a. couple hundred and seeing that i'm right. of course but what about when the. viewers started exactly well and i. always like you just have this intuition.

now and but i think also the reason that. it doesn't affect me so much is when we. first started our content journey we. were only twitch streamers and we our. livelihood were based on twitch viewers. but now like i've learned how to recycle. that content into like youtube and. shorts and other things where i know. like okay if this stream does badly. there's so many more things you can do. that also just have a much larger output. so it doesn't get to me as much as it. did. do you ever feel that with your podcast. or do you feel like it's been authentic.

since the start no so. there's there's a million things to say. there so one. is there's a reason. i stopped taking a salary at mit. and moved to texas is i wanted my bank. account to go to zero because i do my. best with my back against the wall so. one of the comforts i have is i don't. care if this podcast is popular or not. i wanted to not be popular so i don't. want it to make money failing lex yeah i. want i want to i mean i just do best. when i'm um.

more desperate that's like one thing to. say seems like a reoccurring theme with. how you build up your greatest work. which is honestly very respectable. yeah so uh. i thank you that's just like uh i would. recommend it. right thank you for finding it don't try. it the silver lining for an unhealthy um. mental state um. but the other thing is i was very. conscious just like with chess and those. kinds of things. that.

i love numbers and i i would be if i. paid attention. if i tried to be. somebody. at their best like a mr beast who. uh really pays attention to numbers i. would just not. i'd be become destroyed by it. the highs and lows of it and i just. don't think i'll be creating the best. work. uh possible. uh but. one of the i mean they're. one of the big benefits of a podcast. it's listeners.

and there's an intimacy with the voice. and i think. that is much more stable. and a deeper and more meaningful. connection than youtube youtube is a. fickle. mistress it's like it's a weird drug. that like. uh it really wants you very addicting. feedback loops when you have a video. that's number one out of ten yeah oh my. god the the adrenaline you get and then. the the thing i really don't like also. is the world.

uh. like will introduce you. as a person that has a video on youtube. with some x number of views like the. world wants you to be addicted to these. numbers. because they associate it with having. done a good job yeah because that's what. people think views are even if it's not. right and because and primarily because. they don't have any other signal. of what's a good job i think the much. better signal is people that are close. to you your family your colleagues that. say wow that was cool i listened to that.

that was really i didn't know this this. was really powerful this is really. moving and so on. but definitely i'm not terrified of. numbers because i i feel like just like. i said. i'd rather be um. i would rather be a stanley kubrick. right you you'd rather create. great. art like. um not to be pretentious but the best. possible thing you can create whatever. the beauty that's the capacity for. creating beauty that's in you i would. like to maximize that and i feel like.

for some people like mr beast i think. those are perfectly aligned. because he just loves the most epic. thing possible but not for everybody i. think there's a lot of people for whom. that's not perfectly aligned. and so i'm definitely one of those and. i'm still really confused why anybody. listens to this anyway. um. but that's also something i guess you're. trying to find. trying to figure out i i get very afraid. of ever becoming someone who just makes. junk food content where you can't stop.

while you're in the moment and it has. all of your attention but when you're. done it didn't really bring any value to. your life which is something that i. think the algorithm still does really. reward. and making sure that as we are learning. how to create better content it's still. something that is going to be meaningful. long term. well ultimately. you know you inspire a lot of young. people. uh this. yeah those are the best when i get. messages from people who are like i.

played you a year ago and my rating was. 1400 and now i'm 1900 i'd like to. challenge you again it's a 14 year old. writing a former email those things are. always very very fun to get and even. just outside of chess it's just. empowering to see and like for young. women too to see that kind of thing and. you guys are um being yourself. and making money from being yourself and. having fun and like growing as human. beings. which i think is really inspiring for. people to see. um so in that sense it's really. rewarding and then like the way i think.

about it is um. there is some benefit of doing. entertaining type of stuff. so that. you get the. um. kind of like mr beast does with. philanthropy right the bigger mr beast. becomes the more effective he is at. actually doing positive impact on the. world so right those things are tied uh. tied together but of course with with. podcasts. you guys well maybe you have these kinds. of tense things but. what kind of ideas what kind of people.

do platform. what kind of person. um. what kind of human being do you want to. be. because you're actually becoming a. person. and um. a set of ideas in front of the public. eye and you have to ask yourself that. question really hard like really. seriously because uh if you're doing. stuff in private. you have the complete luxuries to try. shit out right i think you have less of. a luxury to try shit out because the.

internet can be vicious and punishing. you for trying shit out and do you think. that's sometimes a bad thing where you. have less freedom to make mistakes. yeah you have two choices so one you put. up a wall and say i don't give a shit. what people think. i don't like doing that because i like. being fragile to the world keeping my. sort of wearing my heart on my sleeve. uh or the other one yeah you have to be. you have to. you have to actually think through what. you're gonna say.

you have to think of like. what do i believe you have to be more. serious about. um what you put out there. it's annoying but it's also actually you. should have always been doing that. you should be deliberate with your. actions and your words. um. but i don't know it's uh. but some of it it's such a balance. because. some of my favorite people are brilliant. people that allow themselves to act. ridiculous and be silly elon musk who's.

become a good friend. is the silliest human of all i mean he's. incredibly. uh brilliant and productive and so on. but allows themselves to be silly. and that that's also inspiring to people. like you don't have to be perfect you. don't have to. you can be a weird a giant weird mess. and it's okay it's a it's a balance. i think when you start to delve into. political topics into topics that. really get tense for people then you. have to be a little bit more careful and. deliberate.

um but it's also wise to stay stay the. hell away from those topics in general. uh like i mentioned to you offline. somebody i. have been debating whether i want to. talk to nas kuryakin on the chessboard. because. you know chess is just a game but. throughout. the history of the 20th century it was. played between the russians and the. americans and so on where. they were at war cold or hot war. and those are interesting. those those are interesting um. conversations to be had at the olympics.

and so on it's not just a game it's some. sense it's like a mini war. and so i have to decide whether i want. to talk to to him or not and those kinds. of things you have to make those kinds. of decisions. for now you guys are not playing chess. with donald trump or obama or so on. we are not right now no. how long is a stream like a few hours. right now they're two to three hours. when i was first streaming i'd stream. for like six hours a day a day at least. usually yeah for like seven six to seven.

days just like a talking one no i would. be playing chess the entire time while. talking and. when i started streaming uh. that's kind of how everybody blows up on. twitch you're just putting in crazy. hours and you're always there it's not. about making the best content it's about. letting people feel like they're hanging. out with you and just being on as much. as you can. but i ended up feeling very burnt out. because it's hard to be your best self.

when you're in front of a camera for. that long because you. do. get scared of going into places where. you want to learn but you might not be. the best in because it's harder to learn. in public than do something that like. yeah we're better than 99 of our viewers. at chess so that's a lot less scary than. trying to. play a game that you're bad at or. discuss topics that you're interested in. yeah be. have the beginner's mind and be dumb at. something right yeah which is where the. fun is and you get to learn together but.

people punish you for it on the internet. um what about you. andrea yeah i think like alex said at. the beginning when we were grinding a. lot you don't really even have time for. much of a private life because you're. streaming. every hour of your life and people want. it like. the appeal of streamers it's called like. being parasocial where you feel like. they're your friend and they like it. because they want you to share. everything about your life. um really the main challenge for me. at first when trying to prioritize.

uh. quantity over quality which we're not. doing anymore was realizing that i can't. turn everything i'm interested in and. every passion into content. before i'm like well i must stream more. but i like music and i like playing. piano and i like reading into these. topics and i like fitness and then i try. to live stream all of it and that's just. at some point it's like just enjoy your. time off for those hobbies and. prioritize what you're good at because. that's just going to be better for the.

channel overall so that was a learning. lesson for sure it's nice because there. are some intersections when i have tried. new things that i really enjoy and it. pays off but that's more uh less often. so it's more like you can be yourself. but only specific parts of yourself. online. and. the rest sometimes it's nice to just. keep private and. feel that you could just. give it your 100 freedom. see i i i feel like um. i try to be the exact same person.

on podcasts as in private life i really. don't like. hiding anything but you're also a. generalist right where you have people. with all topics for us we built our. audience off of very specific things so. people sometimes feel like even at the. start when we started playing less chess. they're like i subbed for chess why are. you not playing chess. exactly people are tuning in for an. interesting conversation on a bunch of. topics so like the more you are yourself. the better it is but it is very hard. when you build your brand on like one. type of gaming content.

build your. brand. but yeah the way you become a journalist. is you slowly expand. it's like uh like uh. expanded checkers. i guess that's that's a downward uh. maybe poker poker yeah exactly poker but. also just the ideas the space of ideas. and one of the cool things about chess. is when you're talking over the. chessboard. you're it's a kind of podcast you know. that is actually an idea we've had with.

playing chess while also doing a podcast. and talking with people it's kind of. like an ice breaker where you're also. focusing on the game at the same time. but you know we are slowly evolving and. we're doing more things like one thing. we wanted to do is spend less time in. front of the computer so now we're doing. a chess travel show where we go to. different countries and look at the. chess culture so it actually feels like. we're doing things that we would want to. do and explore anyway and maybe it's not. as much in the idea space which we both. enjoy and do a lot in our own free time.

but in the. sharing and cool experiences with our. audience that we actually want to do. what do you look forward to going we're. going to romania um. on september 9th and i think this is the. most exciting for me because we're going. back to you know the country where our. entire family is from. where our grandmother taught our dad who. taught us how to play chess it has a. very strong chess culture so it'll be. very unique to go back and see. um how everything is when we haven't.

been back for a very long time and for. romanians like it's very rare when. there's like a famous romanian who. accomplishes something which is why like. right now andrew tate's the most famous. romanian but he's banned for a bad. reason exactly and there's like. something very special about romanian. pride and when we meet fellow romanians. in the us like it's just an amazing. connection and like i hear the way my. dad talk about like for example. nadia who was a famous romanian gymnast. and he's like yeah like romania we.

sucked at everything but when she won. the olympics for gymnasts every kid on. the street was doing gymnastics because. it's very rare that they make it to that. level of success i'm not saying that. we're super successful super famous but. it is really cool to meet other. romanians through chess because it's a. very special bond. you you you feel. like it's a community and like you. belong yeah you can't get that anywhere. else. let me ask your opinion since you. mentioned him andrew tate you're both. women successful women you're both.

creators so andrew t is an example of. somebody. that has become exceptionally successful. at. galvanizing public attention. but he's also. from any perspective of misogynist so. let me ask a personal question. do you think i should talk to him on. this podcast. how would you feel as a fan. as somebody i'm talking to the great. alex and andrea bortes and the next. episode is with andrew tay.

i think it's a double-edged sword and. most of these things are not as black. and white as they seem. you know because on one hand i don't. agree with his beliefs and i think he. said a lot of things that are very. hurtful and that influence. people's opinions um. at the same time talking to someone. through that and trying to get to the. root of it and how much of it he used. just as a social media tactic to maybe.

change the opinion of people who have. been so influenced by him towards. something that is maybe more. understanding towards women or things. like that could. do some good but at the same time. platforming someone like that and giving. them more attention also signals to. other people who have a platform that. it's okay so it's kind of weighing the. pluses and the minuses and it's a very. tough decision because it's not clear. and uh the thing about the internet when. you make the wrong decision you're gonna. pay for it.

right. that's the thing like personally. and it is it is funny like i think the. whole way rose to fame is just the. growth hack and i've seen other people. do it where like you just say kind of. i don't. honestly i don't really listen to his. content because i just find it so dumb. but i think he knows that by saying the. dumbest. most controversial things that's like a. quick rise to fame and i think surface. level like he can really hold it up but. that's why i would honestly enjoy tuning. into a conversation where you're really.

breaking down to the core of those. beliefs and i think like the young kids. who look up to him and when you actually. hear someone challenging it could. actually be helpful for people but at. the same time. it's a lot of bad publicity people see. your podcast they say wow like they. don't if they don't know you and they. don't know why you're interviewing him. and they don't listen they'll see that. and that 100. think it's for the other reason. but i'm also afraid of a society where. you can't have discourse with people you. don't dis with people you disagree with. and even though i don't like andrew tate.

i think the fact that he got banned from. all the platforms is kind of scary. because it sets a precedent and you. always have to ask yourself would this. be ethical if i was on the other side. and even things with a president like. trump even if let's say you're somebody. who was on the left if that would have. happened to a leftist president how. would you feel would you think that's. morally ethical so. that is something that i think is. important we try to find ways to have. conversations and. reach some mutual understanding and try.

instead of just amplifying the worst. about every human being. well so one of the major reasons i'm. struggling with is because i really. talking to brilliant women i think. it's also a lot of women reached out to. me saying like. it is what it is but they're inspired. when the female guest is on yeah and to. me if i talk to somebody like andrew day. even if i have a really hard hitting. i think it could be a very good. conversation. that.

lessens the likelihood that. a brilliant powerful female will go on. the show. they'll never they'll never watch it but. the thing we're doing the society is we. put labels on each other well. lex is the person that platforms. misogynist. i did a thing where. um. joe rogan got in in trouble over an. n-word uh controversy earlier in the. year. and joe's a good friend of mine and i. said that i stand with joe that he's not.

a racist or something like that. and. within certain communities i'm now. somebody who's an apologist for racists. right or a racist myself uh that kind of. thing and we put labels without ever. listening to the content without ever. uh sort of. actually just even the very simple step. or seems to be difficult of like. taking on the best possible. interpretation of what a person said. and giving him the benefit of the doubt.

and having empathy for another person so. you have to play in this field where. people assign labels to each other. and uh. it's difficult but ultimately i believe. i hope that good conversations. is a way. to like a greater understanding for. people to. um. grow together as a society and improve. and learn the lessons the mistakes of. the past but you also have to play this. game where people just like putting. labels on each other and canceling each. other over those or that guy. said one thing nice about donald trump.

he must be a far-right. nazi. or or the opposite that this person. um. says something nice about the vaccine he. must be a far left. um whatever because. apologist. for whatever for fauci. um. or most of us i think are ultimately in. the middle it's a weird it's a weird. thing but i think uh and it's also. painful on a personal level like. people people have written to me.

about things like single words. half sentences that i've said about. either putin or zelensky. where they have hate towards me because. of what i. said either both directions i have now. accumulated very passionate people. that. some call me a putin apologist some call. me as a landscape apologist and it hurts. to. given how much i have family there how. much i've seen of suffering there and to.

carry that burden over time and not let. it destroy you is tough so like do you. want to take on another thing like that. when you have conversations right or can. i just talk to awesome people like you. too. where it's not we're not controversial. it's or you're interesting you're. fascinating you're inspiring you're like. fun you know. not. all those difficult things that come. with more difficult conversations right. but somebody has to be making those. difficult decisions and.

challenging the notions that. we should cancel someone just for. slightly disagreeing with us and it's. very hard to take that on personally and. i think that's a huge part of it when. you know it's something you're doing for. the right reasons and you're getting a. lot of people coming and misinterpreting. it it's very painful. but i think you have to ask yourself. long term. if when you made that decision you. ultimately thought it would be better or. worse for your listeners to know that.

conversation and then if you can sleep. with it at night take the risk yeah when. actually when i talk to people that uh. especially like astrophysicists and you. realize how tiny we are right how. incredible like how huge the universe is. like you don't it doesn't matter you can. do anything you could like. um you can walk around naked talk shit. to people do whatever the hell. and uh actually modern social media. people will just like forget it's like. it's ultimately liberating just try to. do.

at least from my perspective the best. possible thing for the world you can. take big risks it doesn't matter and. that's the other thing with being. canceled nowadays because everyone's. attention is much more short-sighted you. can get cancelled and then it'll blow. over in three days and you actually see. things like this on twitch very often. where people just have. outbursts of outrage and they come into. your chat and they're all spamming and. saying mean things and then three days. after and of course they're not actually. ever serious things they're usually like. things clipped of any streamers and like.

their worst moments but then people. forget about it pretty soon after. so you're able to accept that. like when somebody's being shitty to you. for a day uh yeah i mean i still get. sometimes emotional about it especially. when i'm like oh wow like these things. are being said are not true or like this. is clearly taken out of context but i've. just accepted that it's part of the job. and if i am trying my best and i am. trying things with as good intentions as. possible then i just try to learn every.

time that happens and be like okay what. could i do better and what is just part. of the job. well let's start some controversy who's. the greatest chess player of all time. uh is it magnus carlsen is the guerrilla. caspar visit somebody else bobby fischer. do you have a favorite alex. so whenever i hear this question i. interpret it in a very specific way. where it's not who was the most talented. chess player or who had the most impact. on the chess world but who is the.

greatest at playing chess where if you. were putting all of these players at. their peak who would be the best. and. you know we're kind of living. in a world where obviously humans are. becoming more like cyborgs and their. tools make them a lot more powerful yes. um and. the computer is the most powerful tool. for chess that we've ever witnessed and. the top players now someone like magnus. carlsen or gary kasparov if they were. going to go towards people like you know.

even lasker or bobby fischer back in the. day. lasker he was world champion for 27. years he was the best in his field by. far but would he be able to stand up to. someone like magnus carlson who has had. these tools. i don't think so. so. most chess players have said gary. kasparov um and i think even magnus has. said that in the past but i like to. think of it as magnus in his peak and. gary at his peak and because magnus was. able to live more in a computer era i. feel like so far he's the greatest of.

all time and some studies say things. like how there's raiding inflation but i. looked into some of them and they. basically calculated people's um play in. over the years and it seems that there. hasn't been inflation people are just. getting better and i think it's because. you have better tools at chess. and also the one one of the cases what's. your. i was gonna say i actually i disagree. with that. good make it interesting i think i would. judge the greatest like greatest player.

of all time. in relative to the time that they lived. in and magnus although. he is technically the strongest chess. player in history that is because he had. computers to study chess with and of. course. if you compare him to like gary kasparov. he plays most like stockfish but gary. kasparov at his time he beat more. players of his skill level than magnus. did magnus loses more often he also of. course held the belt for 20 years more. so i'd say actually because gary lacked.

the help of computers to study chess and. overall performed better against players. of his skill level i think he would be. number one. nice. yeah but i mean the case that people. make for magnus. on many. i mean what alex said but but also. magnus plays a lot. and he doesn't. he plays a lot blitz bullet and. like he puts. he gets drunk and like he's really. putting himself out there. and in all kinds of conditions and he's.

able to dominate in a lot of them we get. to see many of the like losses of. blunders and all that kind of stuff. because he just puts himself out there. and i think uh caspar was much more like. i never saw him play drunk right. and it's very focused on the world. championship is very like. um very limited number of games and very. focused on winning and so. there's some aspect to the versatility. the aggressive play the fun the all of. that. that i think you have to give credit to.

100. in terms of just the. the. the scope. the scale of the variety of genius. exhibited by magnus and he might not. even be done yet i don't know if you'll. ever hit 2 900 but we can't judge yet. because he's not at the peak of his. career potentially what do you think. about him not playing world championship. isn't that like isn't that wild the. entirety of the history of chess in the. 20th century going like meh. let's walking away from this one.

tournament that. seems to be at the center of chess. um what do you think about that decision. i mean you can't help but be. disappointed as a chess fan who wants to. see the best player in the world defend. his title. but i also understand it on a personal. level and not feeling as satisfied when. you're. going to the world championship and have. to having to defend against people who. are. less strong than you and also imagine. winning world championships and not.

feeling a joy out of that. yeah so maybe by not doing that and. focusing instead on a goal like 2 900. he'll be more likely to accomplish it. because he's focusing on. what actually motivates him to play. chess but i do think that it will. hurt how we judge. the next world champion. i think it won't change him being the. best player in the world. and for someone to replace him even. let's say like nepo versus sting even if.

one of them win and right on some stance. it does lower the merit because now who. has the world chess championship title. isn't actually the best player in the. world and that has happened before in. the past but still going to take him. the same effort to prove when they would. pass him like 10 20 years to become. stronger than magnus so i don't think it. changes the skill level that it takes to. become the best chess player in the. world i think for chess fans it's very. disappointing but i think in the overall. like grand scheme of like the public. view to people who don't really.

so like you know what breaks the popular. culture. and you think of what names people know. who don't play chess like bobby fischer. did it most people know casper over. magnus it takes the same ability and. talent and that doesn't change i think. it does change though if you're playing. a player who's not as strong. but i i see your point as well and i. know we differ on this like i heard you. asked magnus but what is your take on it.

well. listen his answer is kind of brilliant. which. he's not saying he's he's bored of the. world championship he's. bored of a process that doesn't. determine the best player. like and it's too anxiety-inducing to. him to have a small number of games he's. he's. he doesn't mind losing which is really. fascinating to a better player right. or somebody who's his level he's more. anxious about losing.

to um. a weaker player the weaker player. because of the small sample size now if. like poker players had that anxiety they. would never play at all right that's the. world series of poker you. you get to lose against weaker players. all the time that's the throw of the. dice but. um that's an interesting perspective. that he would love to play 20 30 40. games. in the world championship but then he. would enjoy it much more. and also play shorter games because they.

emphasize the um. like pure chess actually being able to. like. like much more variety in the middle. game just to see a bunch of chaos and. see how you're able to compute calculate. and intuition all that kind of stuff and. yeah that's beautiful. i wish the chess world would step up and. meet him in a place that makes sense. you know change the world championship. so feed it changing it somehow that a. loss for that or having.

other really respected tournaments that. become like an annual thing that step up. to that. or more kind of. online youtube type of competitions. which i think they're trying to do more. and more. like the crypto cup and all those kinds. of things yeah and the grand tour the. graduate does play in which takes a lot. of the top players and they do it online. in shorter formats. but there's you know and so that's his. perspective my. perhaps narrow perspective as i.

romanticize the olympic games and those. are every four years and the. and the world championships. because they're rare because the sample. size is so small that's where the magic. happens everything's on the line for. you know for people that spend their. whole life. 20 years of dedication. everything you have every minute of the. day is spent for that moment you think. about like gymnastics at the olympic. games there's certain sports where a. single mistake and you're fucked.

and that stress that pressure. it can. it can um. it can break people or it can create. magic. like a person that's the underdog. has the best night of their life or the. person that's been dominating for years. all of a sudden slips up that drama from. a human perspective is beautiful so i. still like the world championships but. then again. looking at all the draws. looking at like.

well. the magic isn't quite there. so to me when i see faster games of. chess that's much more. that's much more beautiful so but that i. don't understand the game of chess. deeply enough to know. like does it have to be so um. so many draws. like is there a way to create a more. dynamic chess and he talked about random. chess like with a random starting. position that's really interesting but. then of course that. that's like then you do have to play. hundreds of games and that kind of stuff.

right uh so i but i think. it's great that the world number one. is um. struggling with these questions. because he's in the position he has the. leverage to actually change the game of. chess. as it's publicly seen as publicly played. so it's um it's interesting he's still. young enough to to dominate for quite a. long time if he wants. so i don't know i you know i do with. kasparov the the the fight between.

nations i i hope these have the world. championship. and i hope there's a. i hope he's still part of it somehow. i hope he changes his mind. and comes back comes back some kind of. dramatic thing i don't know. but it is it is his heart is not in it. and then. um. and then that's not beautiful to see. right. uh. yeah it is beautiful. that the thing he wants is a great game.

of chess against an opponent that's his. level or better. and that's that's great that he's coming. from that place but i hope he comes back. tomorrow because the the world. championship is uh. is a special thing in any sport. so you do wish that the person who wins. the world championship is the best. player in the world. no. i hope that the best people in the world. the two best people in the world are the.

ones that sit down. but the person that wins is the person. that that's the magic of it nobody knows. who's going to win i think magnus is so. he he really wants the best person to. win like the the. that's why he wants the large sample. size but to me there's some magic to it. the the stress of it the the drama of it. that's all part of the game like it's. not just about the purity of the game. like the the calculation.

the pure chess of it it's also like the. drama. like. the yeah the the pressure the drama all. of it. the shit talking if it gets to you the. mind games yeah this is the part that's. fun to watch but less fun to be playing. to be but that's why it's great who can. melt who can rise under that pressure. and who melts under that pressure. uh what there's a lot of people to look. up to you like they're inspired by you. because you've taken a kind of. non-linear path through life is there. any advice you have for people.

like in high school today. that are trying to figure out what they. want to do do they want to go to. stanford do they want to pursue a career. um in i don't know uh in industry or. or go kind of the path you guys have. taken which is have the ability to do. all of that and still choose to. make the thing that you're passionate. about your your life. i always like the calculated risks. approach where. when you're younger it's okay to take. more risks because you have a lot more.

time. but there has to be a reason why you're. doing that particular risk is it. something that you've spent a lot of. time already really passionate and. working on or is it just something. that's trendy and you want to do it. because you don't have a better option. and that's actually similar to what. andrea did when she decided to go into. streaming instead of school. yeah it was the reason i got into. streaming because i was initially going. to go to college but the pandemics it. was right the beginning of the pandemic. and all my classes were online and i. never thought ever since i was 12 like.

my dream was school and i saw myself. nowhere else than going to university. um and i just i thought of it and kind. of weighed out the wrist i'm like well. if i take a gap year and i try streaming. with my sister. what do i have to lose i gain some. experience working with someone who has. a lot more experience than i do um and. then i can go back to school after. and if i go to school right now i do. online classes for a year and that's. something that i could do at any time so. that's why it made a lot of sense for me. to go into this.

but of course this is also a very unique. opportunity so i don't know how. applicable but i do think overall the. calculated risk is a really good it's a. life. is like chess. exactly maybe sometime exactly uh you're. also have you considered a career in. professional fighting i saw you did a. self-defense class these little jiu. jitsu did you see the 10 year old kid. who throwing her through her yes and. apparently i could have broken a leg but. it's actually funny like chest boxing is. a thing and i have been doing a lot of.

boxing like. i physical activity is like honestly one. of my favorite things to do and i have. been testing it out on content and we. have a creative friend who's hosting a. chess boxing tournament but there's no. woman who's could match me unfortunately. because all the opponents are male yeah. and i can't fight a guy um how does. chess boxing work so you do a round of. chess and round of boxing and we. actually did a training camp for it. before and of course like after you go. into the ring is this real this.

seriously actually yeah we went to the. london chess boxing club and like after. you've seen like videos i thought it was. something you did in russia or something. no it's a real sport yeah real sport. yeah no it's very cool but after you get. really tired you're more likely to make. a mistake. or something yeah there's probably good. strategies like what do you want to. because some of it is a cardio thing do. you want to work on your chest. they do both it's very fun. but yeah from a content perspective i'm. sure there's a lot of people that like. and would love very entertaining we'd.

love to see. i don't want to see andrea getting hit. that would be i would love to oh she. doesn't get hit but i wouldn't get it. our roommate fought in a fight and she. did end up winning but seeing her get. hit i thought i was going to throw i. just think it was so cool she had no. experience in boxing whatsoever and then. coming from someone in the content world. where you start like waking up six days. a week at six a.m and he's training. every day like you know like a real. professional athlete i think like it's. such a unique experience and also like a. really test of how much you can really.

commit to this and progress and i think. that's really rewarding and did you ever. end up doing the marathon with david. goggins that you were training i know i. got injured but we're gonna do it soon. that's on my uh uh bucket list just to. see what your limits are you're ready. what did you do leading up to this. it's meant it's mental anyway oh yeah. but i do run a lot to make sure like. there's no um. like. you know you have to be have a base. level of fitness to make sure your body.

doesn't completely freak out but other. than that. you know 50 plus miles is just about. like. uh taking it one step at a time and just. being able to deal with the suffering. and all the voices the little voices. that tell you all the excuses like. why are you doing this. this blisters bleeding uh whatever. whatever the. the thing that makes you want to stop. just just shuts off sometimes it feels. like you like pain. no well. no no.

but. the pain does seem to show the way to. progress. so what you're talking about am i in my. world something that's really hard and i. don't want to do that's usually the. right thing to do. and i. i'm not saying that's a. that's like a universal truth it's just. uh you know if there's a few doors to go. into the one that i'd want to go into. least that's the one that usually is the. right one. afterwards i will learn something from. it uh the david gaga's thing i don't.

know that's listen i uh we're talking. offline the different the conversation. with liv she's a very numerous. calculated risk. everything is planned i i go with the. heart i just i just go whatever the hell. i think two years ago i woke up. it was. summer i i decided to tweet. i will do as many push-ups. i don't know why i did this. but i i'll do as many push-ups and. pull-ups as the sweet guest likes. something like that okay right and then.

uh that you got like. 30 000. once you put it out on the internet. you're held accountable for myself i. mean. in some sense and then that's when i. already was connected to david. at that point but that's when he called. me. and then they have to do it and then i. did it was one of the hardest things. i've ever done. i got it i i did it for seven days and i. got injured so i did about a few. thousand so this is what got you to be. injured this challenge no it's different.

i keep getting. keep getting injured doing some stuff. but this particular thing i started. doing the you don't realize that you. have to really ramp up. so i got uh like. overuse injury tendonitis on on the. shoulder all the way down to the elbow. so i took. like eight or nine days off and then. started again and then it took about. 31 days to do. [Music]. i the number was like. 26 27 000.

yeah because and i remember it took like. three four hours a day oh god yeah. sounds like torture and not you know in. the constantly asking myself what am i. doing in my life. this is why you're single what's the. voice of my head. this is what are you doing it's like. face down on the carpet. like. exhausted like what what because of a. tweet what is this. did you record it or you just i did i. did record it for myself okay now.

imagine doing this every day and that's. what it's like to be a twitch streamer. just kidding right doing stupid things. that was really important to me actually. to not make it into content um. you know i recorded everything so maybe. one day i could publish it i recorded it. mostly because it's really hard to count. yeah when you get exhausted yeah like i. just so um you actually enter the zen. place where uh with push-ups. where it's just like it's almost like. like breathing you get into a rhythm and.

you could do quite a lot. but i wanted to make sure like if i. actually get this done. i want there to be evidence that i got. it done for myself so i can count it i. had this idea that i would use machine. learning to like automatically process. the video to count it but then. like after like 10 days i didn't even. give a shit what anyone thought it was. about me versus me. i didn't even care lex versus lex yeah. and then uh. yeah and dave was extremely supportive. but that's when i realized like i really. want to go head to head with him.

um yeah this those kinds of people are. beautiful they really challenge you to. your limits whatever that is it's like. the thing is physical exercise is such. an easy way to push yourself to your. limit there's in all other walks of life. it's it's trickier to configure like how. do you push yourself to your limits in. chess it's hard to figure out but like. do you think it's ever dangerous. yeah and that's what that's why it's. beautiful. the danger you like the pain i don't. like that your eyes lit up as i said. yeah.

like if you don't know how you're gonna. get out of it. you're gonna have to figure out. something profound. about yourself. and i mean one of the reasons i went to. ukraine is i really wanted to. uh experience the hardship. and. the intensity of war that people are. experiencing so i can understand myself. better i can understand them better so. the words that are leaving my mouth are. grounded in a better understanding of.

who they are and i mean the the the. running a lot with david gong is is a. much simpler. thing to do. um simpler way to understand something. about yourself about like the limits of. human nature i think most growth happens. with voluntary suffering or struggle. involuntary stuff that's that's where. the dark trauma is created but. i don't know well maybe maybe it is. maybe i'm just attracted to and what is. that your mind does when you're going. through this involuntary suffering.

i think. it. there's like stages first all the. excuses start coming like why are you. doing this. and then. you start to wonder like what. what kind of person do you want to be. so all the dreams you had all the. promise you made to yourself and to. others all the ambitions you had that.

are haven't come yet realized somehow. that all becomes. really intensely like visceral as as. this struggle is happening and then. when all of that. is allowed to pass from your mind you. have this clear appreciation of what you. really love in life which is just like. just living. just the moment the like the. step at a time like it's i think what. meditation does and it's most effective. it's just that pain is a as a catalyst.

for the meditative process i think for. me. for me. i don't know. um magnus said there's no meaning to. life do you guys agree. or no why are we here. i do not know why we're here. but i do know that. having some kind of. meaning that i give my own life. makes it.

a lot more motivating every day so i. just try to focus on finding meaning. within my own life even if i know it's. just. self-imposed. and then chess is a part of that. chess. is a part of it. maybe it was more so. when i was younger because it was easier. to just feel like i want to improve as a. person and. to use chess to kind of measure some. kind of self-improvement. and now it's. more different than that and i think i.

need to once again find what that. you know. northern star is basically i need to. have a why for why i'm doing things and. then you i feel like i could do very. hard things. what uh role does love play in the human. condition. alex and andrea i'll let andrea start. this one since i took the last sure. and yeah just to add my answer for the. last one i i also. kind of think well life is meaningless.

but i like the stoic idea where that's. something that you live to revolt. against. but for the second question. i have the revolt against the. fundamental meaninglessness of life. exactly. yeah. it was what does love play what role. does love play yeah in the human. condition. the way i see it i. love is a reason you want to share. experiences with other people. that's how i see it like the people you.

really love you want to share the things. you're going through with them. um the good and the bad yeah exactly. that's my simple take on love. my take on it is that. part of what it is to be human is to be. somebody who. feels things emotionally and love. is one of the most intense feelings you. can have. um obviously there's the opposite of. that and there's things like hate but i.

think the love you feel for people like. your parents and your friends and. romantic love in that moment is much. more. intense. than in other situations. um and i think it's also just very. unique to humans and that's. what i appreciate about it maybe that's. the meaning of life. maybe that's what the stoix is searching. for. andrea alex thank you so much for this. and thank you for an amazing. conversation thank you for creating keep. creating and thank you for putting.

knowledge and love out there in the. world. thank you for having us. it was a pleasure and uh we're both big. fans of your podcast so this was really. exciting for us. thanks for listening to this. conversation with alexandra and andrea. botez to support this podcast please. check out our sponsors in the. description. and now let me leave you with some words. from bobby fisher. chess. is life. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time.