Andrew Huberman: Relationships, Drama, Betrayal, Sex, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #393

- Listen, when it comes to romantic relationships, if it's not a hundred percent in you, it ain't happening. And I've never seen. a violation of that statement. where it's like, yeah, it's mostly good and they're this, and this is like the negotiations. Well, already you're, it's doomed. And that doesn't mean someone has to be perfect, the relationship has to be perfect. But it's gotta feel a hundred percent inside. Like, yes, yes, and yes. - The following is a conversation with my dear friend,

Andrew Huberman, his fourth time on this podcast. It's my birthday. So this is a special birthday episode of sorts. Andrew flew down to Austin just to wish me a happy birthday, and we decided to do a podcast last second. We literally talked for hours beforehand. and a long time after, late into the night. He's one of my favorite human beings, brilliant scientist, incredible teacher, and a loyal friend. I'm grateful for Andrew. I'm grateful for good friends,

for all the support and love I've gotten. over the past few years. I'm truly grateful for this life. For the years, the days, the minutes, the seconds I've gotten to live. on this beautiful earth of ours. I really don't want to leave just yet. I think I'd really like to stick around. I love you all. This is the "Lex Fridman Podcast.". And now, dear friends, here's Andrew Huberman.

- I'm trying to. run a little bit more. - Are you losing weight? - I'm not trying to lose weight, but I always do the same fitness routine. after like 30 years, basically, lift three days a week, run three days a week. But one of the runs is a long run, one of 'em is medium, one of 'em is a sprint-type thing. So what I've decided to do this year was just extend. the duration for the long run. And I like being a mobile. I never wanna be so heavy that I can't move.

Like I wanna be able to go out. and run 10 miles if I have to. So sometimes I do. And I wanna be able to sprint if I have to. So sometimes I do. And lifting an objects, feels good. It feels good to train like a lazy bear. and just lift heavy objects. But I've also started training with lighter weights. and higher repetitions, and for three month cycles, and it gives your joints a rest. And yeah, so probably, you know, I think it also is interesting to see.

how training differently changes your cognition. That's probably hormone-related, you know, that hormones downstream of training heavy. versus hormones downstream of training a little bit lighter. I think my cognition is better when I'm doing more cardio. and when the repetition ranges are a little bit higher, which is not to say that people who lift heavy are dumb, but there is a... 'cause there's real value in lifting heavy. - There's a lot of angry people listening to. this right now. - No, no, no. But lifting heavy and then taking 3 to 5 minutes rest.

is far and away a different challenge. than running hard for 90 minutes. That's a tough thing. Just like getting in an ice bath, people say, "Oh, well, how is that any different than working out?". Well, there are a lot of differences, but one of 'em is that it's very acute stress, within one second you're stressed. So I think subjecting the body to a bunch. of different types of stressors in space and time. is really valuable. So yeah, I've been playing with the variables. in a pre-systematic way.

- Well, I like long and slow. for, like you said, the impact it has on my cognition. - Yeah, the wordlessness of it, the way it puts you in a, the way it seems to clean out the clutter. You know, it can take away that hyperfocus. and put you more in a relaxed focus, for sure. - Well, for me, it brings the clutter. to the surface at first. Like, all these thoughts come in there. and then they dissipate. You know, I've been,

because I got knee barred pretty hard, that's when somebody tries to break your knee, you know? - That's Jiu-jitsu. They try and break your knee? Oh, so you tap, so they... - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, hyperextend the knee. at that direction, they got knee barred pretty hard. So in ways I don't understand, it kinda hurts to run. I don't understand what's happening behind there. I need to investigate this. It basically, this, the hamstringing flex, like curling your leg hurts a little bit. And that results in this weird, dull,

but sometimes extremely sharp pain in the back of the knee. So I'm working through this, anyway, but walking doesn't hurt. So I've been playing around with walking recently, like for two hours and thinking-. - I love that. - because I know. a lot of like smart people throughout history. I have walked and thought, and you have to like, you know, play with things that have worked for others. Not just to exercise, but to like integrate this very light. kind of prolonged exercise into a productive life.

So they do all their thinking while they walk. It's like a meditative type of walking. And it's really interesting. It really works. - Yeah, the practice I've been doing a lot more of lately. is I walk while reading a book, in the yard, I'll just pace back and forth. or walk in a circle. - [Lex] Audiobook. or are you talking about- - No, hard copy. - [Lex] Well, you're just holding-. - I'm holding the book and I'm walking and I'm reading. And I usually have a pen and I'm underlining, I have this whole system, like underlining stars, exclamation points, goes back to university of what things I'll go back to,

which things I export to notes and that kind of thing. But from the beginning when I opened my lab at that time. in San Diego before I moved back to Stanford, I would have meetings with my students or postdocs. by just walking in the field behind the lab, you know, and I'd bring my Bulldog, Costello. Bulldog Masttif at the time. And he was a slow walker. So these were slow walks, but I can think much more clearly that way. There's a Nobel Prize winning professor.

at Columbia University School of Medicine, Richard Axel, who won the Nobel Prize, co-won Nobel Prize with Linda Buck. for the discovery of the molecular basis of olfaction. And he walks and voice dictates his papers. And now with Rev or these other, maybe there are better ones than Rev, where you can convert audio files into text very quickly. and then edit from there. So I will often voice dictate first drafts. and things like that. And I totally agree on the long runs, the walks, the integrating that with cognitive work,

harder to do with sprints. And then the gym, you know, are you, you weight train? - Yeah. - You just seem naturally. strong and like thicker jointed. - (chuckles) - It's true, it's true. I mean, we did the one very beginner. 'cause I'm a very beginner of jiu-jitsu class together. And yeah, as I mentioned then, what if people missed it? Lex is freakishly strong. - I think I was born genetically to hug people. - [Andrew] Oh, like Costello. - Yeah, exactly. - You guys have. a certain similarity. He had wrists, like, you know,

it's like you and Jocko and Costello have these like wrists. and elbows that are super thick, you know, and then when you look around, you see tremendous variation. You know, some people have like the wrist width of a Whippet. or Woody Allen, and then other people like you or Jocko. or, you know? There's this one Jocko video or thing on GQ or something. Have you seen the comments on Jocko? These are the best. - [Lex] No. (chuckles). - The comments, I love the comments on YouTube. 'cause occasionally they're funny. The best is when Jocko was born, the doctor looked at his parents and said, it's a man.

(Lex laughs). - [Lex] It's like Chuck Norris type comments. - Oh yeah, those are great. That's what I miss about Rogan being on YouTube. with the full length episode, oh, that comment. - So this is technically a birthday podcast. What do you love most about getting older? - It's like, the confirmation. that comes from getting more and more data. that which basically says,

yeah, the first time you thought that thing, it was actually right. because the second, third and fourth and fifth time, it turned out the exact same way. In other words, there have been a few times in my life. where I did not feel easy about something I felt. a signal from my body, this is not good. And I didn't trust it early on, but I knew it was there. And then two or three bad experiences later,

I'm able to say, ah, every single time. there was a signal from the body. informing my mind, "this is not good.". Now the reverse has also been true. that there've been a number of instances. in which I feel there sort of immediate delight. And there's this kind of almost astonishingly. simple experience of feeling comfortable with somebody. or at peace with something, or delighted at an experience. And it turns out all, literally all of those experiences and people.

turned out to be experiences and people. that are still in my life. and that I still delight in every day. In other words, what's great about getting older. is that you stop questioning. the signals that come from the, I think, deeper recesses of your nervous system to say, Hey, this is not good, or hey, this is great, more of this. Whereas, I think in my teens, my 20s, my 30s, I'm 40, almost 48, I'll be 48 next month.

I didn't trust, I didn't listen. I actually put a lot of work into overriding those signals. and learning to fight through them, thinking that somehow that was making me tougher. or somehow that was making me smarter. When in fact, in the end, those people that you meet that are, you know, difficult or you know, there are other names for it, you know, it's like, in the end you're like, that person's a piece of, you know? Or this person is amazing and they're really wonderful.

And I felt that from go. - So you've learned to trust your gut. versus like the influences of other people's opinions. - I've learned to trust my gut versus. the forebrain over analysis, overriding the gut. Other people often in my life have had great optics, right? I've benefited tremendously from an early age of being. in a large community. Well, it's been mostly guys, but I have some close female friends and always have as well.

who will tell me that that's a bad decision. or this person not so good, or be careful, or they're great, or that's great. So oftentimes my community and the people around me. have been more aligned with the correct choice. than not- - Christian, really? - Yes - Really? When you were younger, like, or like friends, parents and so on? - I don't recall ever really listening to my parents. that much, you know, I grew up in a, you know, we don't have to go back to my childhood thing, but my sense was that- - It's your fault, Andrew. - Thank you, I learned that recently. in a psilocybin journey.

My first high dose psilocybin journey, which was- - Welcome back. - done with a clinician, thank you very much. Thank you. I was worried there for a second at one point, I might not coming back, but in any event, yeah, I grew up with some wild kids. You know, I would say about a third of my friends. from childhood are dead or in jail, about a third have gone on. to do tremendously impressive things. Start companies, excellent athletes, academics, scientists and clinicians.

And then about a third are living their lives. as kind of more typical. I just mean, that they are happy family people with jobs. that they mainly serve the function to make money. They're not sort of career into their career. for career's sake. But, so some of my friends early on gave me some bad ideas, but most of the time, my bad ideas came from. overriding the signals that I knew that my body,

and I would say my body and brain were telling me to obey. And now I say body and brain is that. there's this brain region, the insula, which does many things, but it represents our sense of internal sensation. and interoception. And I was talking to Paul Conti about this, you know, who as you know, I respect tremendously. I think he's one of the smartest people I've ever met, I think for different reasons. He and Marc Andreessen are some of the like,

smartest people I've ever met. But Paul's level of insight into the human psyche. is absolutely astounding. And he says the opposite of what most people say. about the brain, which is most people say, oh, the supercomputer of the brain is the forebrain. It's like a monkey brain. with a extra real estate put on there, and the forebrain is what makes us human. and gives us our superpowers. Paul has said,

and he's done a whole series on mental health. that's coming out from our podcast in September. So this is not an attempt to plug that, but he'll elaborate on-. - Wait, Paul- - what I'm about to say. - [Lex] Wait, you're doing a thing with Paul. with the series? - We already did. Yeah, so Paul- - Oh, nice. - Yeah, so Paul Conti shot, we did, he and I sat down and he did a four episode series. on mental health. This is not mental illness, mental health. about how to explore one's own subconscious, explore the self build and cultivate the generative drive. You'll learn more about what that is from him. He's far more eloquent and clearer than I am.

And he provides essentially. a set of steps to explore the self. that does not require that you work with a therapist. This is self-exploration that is rooted in psychiatry, it's rooted in neuroscience. And I don't think this information exists anywhere else. I'm not aware that it exists anywhere else. And he essentially distills it all down. to one 8 1/2 by 11 sheet, which we provide for people. And he says there,

I don't want to give too much away. because I would detract from what he does so beautifully, but if I tried and I wouldn't have accomplish it anyway. But he said, "And I believe that the subconscious. is the supercomputer of the brain. All the stuff working underneath our conscious awareness. that's driving our feelings. and what we think are the decisions. that we've thought through so carefully. And that only by exploring the subconscious. and understanding it a little bit, can we actually improve ourselves over time.".

And I agree. I think that, so that the mistake. is to think that thinking can override it all. It's a certain style of introspection in thinking. that allows us to read the signals from our body, read the signals from our brain, integrate. the knowledge that we're collecting about ourselves. and to use all that in ways that are really adaptive, and generative for us. - What do you think is there in that subconscious, what do you think of the Jungian shadow, what's there?

- You know, there's this idea, as you're familiar with too, I'm sure that this Jungian idea that there, we all have all things inside of us. That all of us have the capacity to be evil, to be good, et cetera, but that some people express one or the other. to a greater extent. But he also mentioned that there's a unique category. of people, maybe 2 to 5% of people. that don't just have all things inside of them, but they actually spend a lot of time exploring. a lot of those things. The darker recesses, the shadows, their own shadows.

You know, I'm somebody who's drawn. to goodness and to light, and to joy, and all those things like anybody else. But yeah, I think maybe it was part of how I grew up. Maybe it was the crowd I was with, maybe... But then again, you know, even when I started spending more time with academics. and scientists, I mean, you see shadows in other ways, right? You see pure ambition with no passion. I recall a colleague in San Diego.

who, it was very clear to me, did not actually care about understanding the brain, but understanding the brain was just his avenue. to exercise ambition. And if you gave him something else to work on, he'd work on that, in fact, he did. He left and he worked on something else. I realized he has no passion. for understanding the brain, like all, I assumed all scientists do, certainly why I went into it. But some people, it's just raw ambition. It's about winning. It doesn't even matter what they win. It's to which to me is crazy. But I think that's a shadow that some people explore,

not one I've explored. I think the shadow parts of us are very important. to come to understand and look, better to understand them and know that they're there. and work with them than to not acknowledge their presence, and have them surface in the form of addictions or behaviors. that damage us and other people. - So one of the processes for achieving mental health. is to bring those things to the surface. So fish the subconscious mind. - Yes, and you know,

Paul describes 10 cupboards that one can look into. for exploring the self. There's the structure of self and the function of self. Again, this will all be spelled out in this series. in a lot of detail also in terms of its relational aspect. between people, how to pick good partners. and good relations. It gets really into this from a very different perspective. Yeah, fascinating stuff. I was just sitting there, just... I will say this, that four episode series with Paul. is at least to date, the most important work.

I've ever been involved in, in all of my career. Because it's very clear that we are not taught. how to explore our subconscious. And that very few people actually understand how to do that. Even most psychiatrists, he mentioned something about psychiatrists. You know, if you're a cardiothoracic surgeon. or something like that and 50% of your patients die, you're considered a bad cardiothoracic surgeon. But with no disrespect to psychiatrists, there are some excellent psychiatrists out there. There are also a lot of terrible psychiatrists out there.

Because unless all of those, all of their patients commit suicide or half commit suicide, they can treat for a long time without it becoming visible. that they're not so good at their craft. Now he's superb at his craft. And I think he would say that, yes, exploring some shadows, but also just understanding the self. Like what, you know, really understanding like, who am I and what's important? What are my ambitions? What are my strivings? Again, I'm lifting from some of the things.

that he'll describe exactly how to do this. People do not spend enough time addressing those questions. And as a consequence, they discover what resides in their subconscious. through the sometimes bad, hopefully also good, but manifestations of their actions. We are driven by this huge 90%. of our real estate that is not visible. to our conscious awareness. And we need to understand that,

you know, I've talked about this before, I've done therapy twice a week since I was a kid. I had to, as a condition of being let back in school, I continue, I found a way to either through insurance. or even when I didn't have insurance, I took an extra job writing for Thrasher Magazine. when I was a postdoc. so I could pay for therapy at a discount. 'cause I didn't make much money as a postdoc. I mean, I think for me, it's as important as going to the gym. And people think it's just, oh, you know, ruminating on problems or getting, no, no, no. If you work with somebody really good,

they're forcing you to ask questions. about who you really are, what you really want. It's not just about support, but there should be support, there should be rapport, but then it's also, there should be insight, right? Most people who get therapy, they're getting support. There's rapport, but insight is not easy to arrive at. And a really good psychologist or psychiatrist. can help you arrive at deep insights. that transform your entire life. - Well, sometimes when I look inside, and I do this often,

you know, exploring who you truly are, you come to this question, do I accept once you see parts, do I accept this or do I fix this? Is this who you are fundamentally, and it will always be this way? Or is this a problem to be fixed? Like, for example, one of the things, especially recently, but in general over time I've discovered about myself. probably has roots in childhood, probably has roots in a lot of things,

is I deeply value loyalty. maybe more than the average person. And so when there's disloyalty, it can be painful to me. And so this is who I am, and so do I have to relax a bit? Do I have to fix this part? Or is this who you are? And there's a million, that's one like little... - I think loyalty is a good thing to cling to, provided that when loyalty is broken, that it doesn't disrupt too many other areas of your life.

But it spends also on who's disrupting that loyalty, if it's a coworker versus a romantic partner. versus your exclusive romantic partner, depending on the structure. of your romantic partner life, you know, I mean, I have always experienced extreme. joy and feelings of safety, and trust in my friendships. Again, mostly male friendships, but female friendships too, which is only to say.

that they were mostly male friendships. The female friendships have also been very loyal. You know, so getting backstabbed. is not something I'm familiar with. And yeah, I love being crude up, you know? - Yeah, yeah, no, for sure and I'm with you, and you know, you and I are very much. have the same values on this, but you know, that's one little thing. And then there's many other things, like I'm extremely self-critical. Then you look at my, you know, I look at myself as, I'm regularly very self-critical, there's a self-critical engine in my brain.

And I talked to actually Paul about this, I think on the podcast quite a bit. And he's saying, this is a really bad thing. Like, you need to fix this. You need to be able to be regularly very positive. about yourself. And I kept disagreeing with him. No, this is like who I am. And he seems to work, don't mess with a thing that seems to be working, it's fine. Like I oscillate between being really grateful. and really self-critical. But then you have to like figure out what is it, maybe there's a deeper root thing.

Maybe there's an insecurity in there somewhere. that has to do with childhood. and then you're trying to prove something to somebody. from your childhood, this kind of thing. - Well, a couple things that I think are hopefully valuable. for people here. One is. one way to destroy your life. is to spend time trying to control your. or somebody else's past. So much of our destructive behavior. and thinking comes from wanting something.

that we saw or did, or heard to not be true, rather than really working with that and getting close. to what it really was. And you know, sometimes those things are even traumatic. and we need to really get close to them. and for them to move through us. And that, you know, there are a bunch of different ways. to do that with support from others and hopefully, but sometimes on our own as well. I don't think we can rewire our deep preferences. and what we find despicable or joyful.

I do think that. it's really a question of what allows us peace. Like, can you be at peace with the fact. that you're very self-critical. and enjoy that, get some distance from it, have a sense of humor about it. or is it driving you in a way. that's keeping you awake at night. and forcing you back to the table to do work in a way. that feels self-flagellating and doesn't feel good. You know, can you get that humility and awareness. of how you're, you know, of your one's flaws? And I think that can create, you know,

this word space sounds very new agey, like get space from it. It's, you know, you can have a sense of humor. about how, you know, neurotic, we can all be, I mean, you know, neurotic isn't actually. a bad term in the classic sense of the psychologists. and psychiatrists, the freudians. So that, you know, the best case is to be neurotic, to actually see one's own issues and work with them. Whereas psychotic is the other way to be, which is obviously not good. So I think the question whether or not to work on something. or to just accept it as part of ourselves,

I think really depends. if we feel like it's holding us back or not. And I think you're asking perhaps the most profound question. about being a human, which is, you know, what do you do with your body? What do you do with your mind? I mean, it's also a question. We started off talking about fitness a little bit. We just, for whatever reason, you know, do I need to run an ultra marathon? I don't feel like I need to.

David Goggins does, and does a whole lot more than that. So that for him, that's important. For me, it's not important to do that. I don't think he does it just so he can run the ultras. There's clearly something else in there for him. And guys like Cam Hanes. and tremendous respect for what they do and how they do it. Does one need to make their body more muscular, stronger, more endurance, more flexibility? Do you need to read harder books? Do you need to, I think doing hard things feels good.

I think it, I know it feels good. I know that the worst I feel, the worst way to feel is when I'm procrastinating. and I don't do something. And then whenever I do something and I complete it, and I break through that point where it was hard. and then I'm doing it, at the end, I actually feel like I was infused. with some sort of super chemical. And who knows if it's probably a cocktail. of endogenously made chemicals. But I think it is good to do hard things, but you have to be careful not to destroy your body,

your mind in the process. And I think it's about whether or not you can achieve peace. Can you sleep well at night? Stress isn't bad if you can sleep well at night. You can be stressed all day, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, and it'll optimize your focus. But can you fall asleep and stay deeply asleep at night? Being in a hard relationship. Some people say, you know, that's not good. Other people like it. Can you be at peace in that? And I think we all, you know,

have different RPM that, you know, we all kinda idle at different RPM. and some people are big mellow Costellos, and others are kind of like, you know, need more friction in order to feel at peace. But I think ultimately what we want is to feel at peace. - Yeah, I've been through some really low points. over the past couple years and I think. the reason could be boiled down. to the fact that I haven't been able to find. a place of peace,

a place or people, or moments that give deep inner peace. Yeah, you know, and I think you put it really beautifully. You have to figure out, given who you are, the various characteristics of your mind, all the things, all the contents of the cupboards, how to get space from it. And ultimately, one good representation of that. is to be able to laugh at all of it. Whatever's going on inside your mind.

to be able to step back and just kinda chuckle. at the beauty and the absurdity of the whole thing. - Yeah, and keep going. There's this beautiful, as I mentioned, it seems like every podcast lately, I'm a huge Rancid fan, mostly 'cause I just think Tim Armstrong's writing. is pure poetry and whether or not you like the music or not, you know, and he's written music. for a lot of other people too. He's not, doesn't advertise that much. 'cause he's humble, but-. - [Lex] And that by the way, I went to a show of theirs. like 20 years ago. - Oh yeah? I'm gonna see them in Boston, September 18th.

I'm literally flying there for, or I'll take the train up from New York. I'm gonna meet a friend of mine named Jim Thiebaud, who's a big guy who owns a lot of companies, the skateboard industry. We're meeting there like a couple little kids. to go see them play. Amazing people, amazing music. - Very intense. - Very intense, but embodies all the different emotions. That's why I love it, right? They have some love songs, they have some hate songs, they have some, but you know, going back to what you said, I think there's a song,

the first song on the Indestructible album, I think there's a, it's sort of, he's just talking about like shock. and disbelief of discovering things about people. that were close to you, and, you know, I won't sing it, but, you know, nor I wouldn't dare. But there's this one lyric where that's really stuck. in my mind for ever since that album came out in 2003, which is, you know, that nothing's what it seems,

so I just sit here laughing, I'm gonna keep going on. I can't get distracted. There is this piece of like, you gotta learn how to push out. the disturbing stuff sometimes and go forward. And I mean, I remember hearing that lyric. and then writing it down and, you know, that was a time where my undergraduate advisor, who was like a mentor and a father to me, you know, blew his head off in the bathtub. like three weeks before. And then my graduate advisor, who I was working for at that time, who I loved and adored, was really like a mother to me.

I knew her when she was pregnant with her two kids died. at 50, breast cancer. And then my postdoc advisor, you know, first day of work. at Stanford as a faculty member sitting across the table. like this from him, had a heart attack right in front of me, died of pancreatic cancer at the end of 2017. And I remember just thinking like, you know, going back to that song lyric over and over, like, and where people would, you know, I haven't had many betrayals in life. I've had a few, but just thinking like, or seeing something or learning something. about something you just, like, you can't believe it. And I mentioned that lyric off that first song,

Indestructible on that album. because it's this like, just the raw emotion of like, I can't believe this, what I just saw is so disturbing, but I have to just keep going forward. There are certain things that we really do need to push, not just into our periphery, but often to the gutter and keep going. And that's a hard thing to learn how to do. But if you're going to be functional in life, you have to. And actually just to get at this issue of do I change.

or do I embrace this aspect of self? About six months, it was April. of this last year, I did some intense work. around some things that were really challenging to me. And I did it alone, and it may have involved some medicine. And I expected to get peace through this. I was like, I'm gonna let go of it, and I spent 11 hours just getting more and more frustrated.

and angry about this thing that I was trying to resolve. And I was so unbelievably disappointed. that I couldn't get that relief. And I was like, what is this? Like this is not how this is supposed to work. I'm supposed to be feel peace. The clouds are supposed to lift. And so a week went by. and then another half week went by, and then someone whose opinion I trust very much, I explained this to them. because I was getting a little concerned like, what's going on? This is worse, not better. And they said, "This is very simple.

You have a giant blind spot, which is your sense of justice, Andrew, and your sense of anger are linked. like an iron rod and you need to relax it.". And as they said that, I felt the anger dissipate. And so there was something that I think is, it is true. I have a very strong sense of justice and my sense of anger. then at least, was very strongly linked to it. So it's great to have a sense of justice, right?

I hate to see people wronged. I absolutely do. And I'm human, I'm sure I've wronged people in my life. I know I have, they've told me, I've tried to apologize and reconcile where possible, still have a lot of work to do. But where I see injustice, it draws in my sense of anger in a way. that I think is just eating me up. And, but it was only in hearing that link. that I wasn't aware of before, it was in my subconscious, obviously. Did I feel the relaxation? It wasn't, there's no amount of plant medicine.

or MDMA or any kind of, you know, chemical you can take that's naturally. just going to dissipate what's hard for oneself. It needs, if one embraces that. or if one chooses to do it through just talk therapy. or journaling, or friends, or introspection, or all of the above, there needs to be an awareness of the things. that we're just not aware of. So I think the answer to your question, do you embrace or do you fight these aspects of self is, I think you get in your subconscious. through good work with somebody skilled or,

and sometimes that involves the tools I just mentioned. in various combinations, and you figure it out. You figure out if it's serving you. Obviously, it was not bringing me peace. It was undermining my sense of justice, was undermining my sense of peace. And so in understanding this link be... Now, I would say that the, in understanding this link between justice and anger, now, I think it's a little bit more of like a, you know, it's not like a Twizzler stick bendy, but it's at least, it's not like an iron rod. Like, you know, when I see somebody wronged,

I mean, it used to just like, (puffs) like immediately. - But you're able to step back now that's like to me, the ultimate place to reach is laughter. - I just sit here laughing. Exactly, that's the lyric, I like, I can't believe it. So I just sit here laughing like, can't get distracted. Just you at some point, but the problem I think in just laughing at something, like that gives you distance. But the question is, do you stop engaging with it at that point?

Like, I experienced this, I mean, recently, I got to see how sometimes. I'll see something that's just like, what? Like this is crazy so I just laugh, but then I continue to engage in it. and it's taking me off course. And so there is a place where, you know, I mean, I realize this is probably a kid show too, so I want to keep it, you know, G-rated, but at some point for certain things, it makes sense to go, fuck that. - But also laugh at yourself for saying fuck that.

- Yeah, and then move on. So the question is, do you get stuck or do you move on, right? - Sure, but like, there's a lightness of being. that comes with laughter. I mean, I've gotten... - Sure. - Like, as you know, I spent the day with Elon today. He just gave me this burnt hair. Do you know what this is? - [Andrew] I have no idea. - I'm sure there's actually, there should be a Huberman lab episode on this. It's a cologne that's burnt hair. - I see. - And it's like. supposedly a really intense smell. And it is. - Give me a smell. - [Lex] Do please, it's not gonna leave. your nose. - That's okay. Well, that's okay, I'll take a gent...

I'll whiff it as if I were whiffing. a chemical in the lab. - You have to actually spray. it on yourself. 'cause I don't know if you can-. - So I'm reading an amazing book. called "An Immense World" by Ed Yong. He won a Pulitzer for "We Contain Multitudes". or something like that, I think is the title of the other book. And the first chapter is all about olfaction. and the incredible power that olfaction has. That smells terrible. I don't even- - And it doesn't leave you. For those listening, it doesn't quite smell terrible. It's just intense and it stays with you.

This to me represents. like just laughing at the absurdity of it all. - So I have to ask, so you were rolling jiu-jitsu? - [Lex] Yeah, we're training jiu-jitsu, yeah. - So is that fight between Elon. and Zuck actually gonna happen? - I think Elon is a huge believer of this idea. of the most entertaining outcomes is the most likely. And he almost like, there's almost the sense. that there's not a free will and the universe. has a kinda deterministic gravitational field pulling.

towards the most fun and he's just a player in that game. So from that perspective, I think it seems like something like that is inevitable. - Like a little scrap in the parking lot. of a Facebook or something. like that. - Exactly. - Sorry, Meta. - Yeah. - But it looks like they're training for real, and Zuck has competed right in jiu-jitsu? - So I think he is approaching it as a sport. Elon is approaching it as a spectacle.

And I mean, the way he talks about it, he's a huge fan of history. He talks about all the warriors that have fought. throughout history. If you look, he wants to really do it at the Colosseum. And you know, the Colosseum is for 400 years, there's so many, so much great writing about this. I think over 400,000 people have died. in the Colosseum, Gladiators. So this is this historic place that sheds so much blood, so much fear, so much anticipation of battle, all of this.

So he loves this kinda spectacle. And also, the meme of it, the hilarious absurdity of it, that two tech CEOs battling it out on sand. in a place where gladiators fought to the death. and then bears and lion ate prisoners. as part of the execution process. - Well, it's also gonna be an instance. where Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk. gets to change bodily fluids. If they bleed, there's one thing's about fighting, you know?

I think it was in that book, it's a great book "Fighter's Heart,". where he talks about, you know, the sort of the intimacy. of sparring. I only rolled jiu-jitsu with you once, but there was a period of time where I boxed. and which I don't recommend. I got hit, I hit some guys and definitely got hit back. I'd spar on Wednesday nights when I lived on San Diego. And you know, when you spar with somebody, even if they hurt you, especially if they hurt you, you know, you see that person afterwards. and there's an intimacy, right?

It was in that book "Fire's Heart" where he explains, you know, you're exchanging bodily fluids. with a stranger, right? And you're in your primitive mind, and so there's an intimacy there that persists, so. - You go together through a process of fear, anxiety, like-. - Yeah, when they get you, you nod. I mean, you watch somebody like catch somebody if, you know, not so much in professional fighting, but if people are sparring that they catch you, you acknowledge that they caught you, like you got me there. - And on the flip side of that,

so we trained and then after that we played Diablo IV. - [Andrew] I don't know what that is. I don't play video games, sorry. - But it's a video game. So it's like, it's a, you know, pretty intense combat in the video. You know, you're fighting like demons and-. - Oh, okay. The last video game I played was Mike Tyson's "Punch Out.". - [Lex] There, you go. That's pretty close. - I met him recently, went on his podcast. - [Lex] You went, wait... - It hasn't come out yet. - Oh, it hasn't come. out yet, okay. - Yeah. Yeah, I asked Mike, his kids are great. They came in and they're super smart kids. Goodness gracious.

They ask great questions. I asked Mike what he did with the piece of a Evander's ear. that he bit off. and said- - Did he remember? - He's like, gave it back to him. (chuckles). - [Lex] There you go, sorry about that. - He sells edibles that are in the shape of ears. with a little bite out of it. Yeah, his life has been incredible. He's intimate. Yeah, his family are, you get the sense that they're really a great family. They're really... - Mike Tyson?

That's a heck of a journey right there of a man. - Yeah, my now friend, Tim Armstrong, like I said, lead singer from Rancid, he put it best. He said, you know, that Mike Tyson's life is, you know, Shakespearean. and you know, down, up, down, up. And just that the arcs of his life are just like. sort of an only in America kinda tale too, right? - So, speaking of Shakespeare, I've recently gotten to know Neri Oxman, who's this incredible scientist. that works at the intersection of nature and engineering.

And she reminded me of this Anna Akhmatova line, this is this great Soviet poet that I really love. from over a century ago that, "Each of our lives is a Shakespearean drama raised. to the thousand degree.". So I have to ask, why do you think humans are attracted. to this kind of Shakespearean drama? Is there some aspect we've been talking about. the subconscious mind that pulls us towards the drama,

even though the place of mental health is peace? - Yes, and yes. - Do you have some of that? - Draw towards drama? Yeah. - [Lex] If you look at the empirical data. - Yes, I mean... Right, if I look at the empirical data, I mean, I think about who I chose to work for. as an undergraduate, right? I was, you know, barely finished high school, finally get to college, barely. I think... This is really embarrassing and not something to aspire to,

you know, I was, you know, thrown outta the dorms. for fighting, barely passed my classes, you know, the girlfriend and I split up. I mean, I was living in a squad, got into a big fight. I was getting in trouble with the law. Eventually got my act together, go back to school, start working for somebody, who do I choose to work for? A guy who's an ex-navy guy who smokes cigarettes. in the fume hood, drinks coffee, and we're injecting rats with MDMA. And, you know, I was drawn to like the personality, his energy, but also, he was a great scientist.

Worked out a lot on a thermal regulation. in the brain and more, you know, go to graduate school, I'm working for somebody. and decide that yeah, doing, working in her laboratory. wasn't quite right for me. So I'm literally sneaking into the laboratory next door. and working for the woman next door. because I liked the relationships that she had. to a certain set of questions. And she was a kind of a quirky person. And, you know, so drawn to drama, but drawn to, I like characters. I like people that have texture.

And I'm not drawn to raw ambition. I'm drawn to people that seem to have a real passion. for what they do and a uniqueness to them. that I, you know, you can kind of, not kind of, I'll just say how it is. I can feel their heart for what they do. And I'm drawn to that, like... And that can be good. The same reason I went to work for Ben Barres as a postdoc, it wasn't because he was the first transgender member. of the National Academy of Sciences. That was just a feature of who he was. I loved how he loved Glia.

He would talk about these cells. like they were the most enchanting things. that he'd ever seen in his life. And I was like, this is like the biggest nerd I've ever met, and I love him. I think I'm drawn to that. This is another thing that Conti makes elaborates on quite. a bit more in the series on mental health coming out. But there are different drives within us. There are aggressive drives, not always for fighting, but for intense interaction. I mean, look at Twitter, look at people clearly have an aggressive drive.

There's also a pleasure drive. Some people also have a strong pleasure drive. They want to experience pleasure through food, through sex, through friendship, through adventure, you know? But I think the Shakespearean drama is the drama. of the different drives in different ratios. in different people. I know somebody and she's incredibly kind, has an extremely high pleasure drive, loves taking great care of herself and people around her.

through food and through retreats, and through all these things, and makes spaces beautiful everywhere she goes. And gifts, these things that are. just so unbelievably feminine and incredible. These gifts to people and the kind and thoughtful. about what they like. And then, but I would say very little aggressive drive. from my read. And then I know other people who are just have a ton. of aggressive drive and very little pressure drive. And I think, so there's this alchemy. that exists where people have these things.

in different ratios, and then you blend in, you know, the differences in the chromosomes. and differences in hormones, and differences in personal history, and what you end up with is a species. that creates incredible recipes of drama, but also peace, also relief from drama, contentment. I mean, I realize this isn't the exact topic. of the question, but someone I know very dearly, actually an ex-girlfriend of mine, long-term partner of mine.

sent me something recently and I think it hit the nail. on the head, which is that ideally for a man, they eventually settle where they find and feel peace. Where they feel peaceful, where they can be themselves and feel peaceful. Now, I'm sure there's a equivalent. or mirror image of that for women, but this particular post that she sent was about men. And I totally agree. And so it isn't always that we're seeking friction, but for periods of our life, we seek friction, drama,

adventure, excitement, fights, you know, and doing hard, hard things. And then I think at some point, I'm certainly coming to this point now where it's like, yeah, that's all great and checked a lot of boxes, but had a lot of close calls, flew really close to the sun on a lot of things with life. and limb, and heart and spirit. And some of, you know, people close to us didn't make it. And sometimes not making it means.

the career they wanted went off a cliff. or their health went off a cliff, or their life went off a cliff. But I think that there's also the Shakespearean drama. of the characters that exit the play. and are living their lives happily in the backdrop. It just doesn't make for as much entertainment. - That's one other thing that's a benefit, you could say is the benefit of getting older. is finding the Shakespearean drama less appealing. or finding the joy in the peace.

- Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that, I think there's real peace with age. I think the other thing is. this notion of checking boxes is a real thing, for me anyway. I have a morning meditation that I do, well, I wake up now, I get my sunlight, I hydrate, I use the bathroom, I do all the things that I talk about. I've started a practice of prayer in the last year, which is new-ish for me, which is, we could talk about it. if you want. - In the morning? - Yeah. - Can you talk about it. a little bit? - Sure, yeah.

And then I have a meditation that I do. that actually is where I think through. with the different roles that I play. So like, I start very basic. I say, you know, okay, I'm an animal. Like we are like, biologically animals, right? Human, you know, I'm a man, I'm a scientist, I'm a teacher, I'm a friend, I'm a brother, I'm a son, you know, I go through this, I have this list. and I think about the different roles that I have. and the roles that I still want in my life going forward.

that I haven't yet fulfilled. It just takes me, it's sort of an inventory. of where I've been, where I'm at, and where I'm going as they say. And I don't know why I do it, but I started doing it this last year, I think because it helps me understand. just how many different contexts I have to exist in. and remind myself that there's still more. that I haven't done that I'm excited about. - So within each of those contexts, there's like things that you want to kind of accomplish, to define that.

- Yeah, and I'm ambitious so I think, you know, I'm a brother. I have an older sister and I love her tremendously. And I think like, I wanna be the best brother I can be to her. Which means maybe a call, maybe just, you know, we do an annual trip together for our birthdays. Our birthdays are close together. We always go to New York for our birthdays. and we've gone for the last three, four years, like really like reminding myself of that role, not because I'll forget, but because I have all these other roles. I'll get pulled into. I say the first one, I'm an animal. because I have to remember that I have a body. that needs care, like any of us. I need sleep, I need food, I need hydration, I need...

That I'm human, that the brain of a human. is marvelously complex, but also marvelously self-defeating at times. And so I've been thinking about these things. in the context of the different roles. And the whole thing takes about four or five minutes. And I just find it brings me a certain amount of clarity. that then allows me to ratchet into the day. The prayer piece, yeah, I think I've been reluctant to talk about until now.

because I don't believe in pushing religion on people. And I think that, and I'm not. It's a highly individual thing. And I do believe that one can be an atheist. and still pray or agnostic and still pray. But for me, it really came about through understanding. that there are certain aspects of myself. that I just couldn't resolve on my own.

And no matter how much therapy, no matter how much, and I haven't done a lot of it, but no matter how much plant medicine. or other forms of medicine, or exercise, or podcasting, or science, or friendship, or any of that, I was just not going to resolve. And so I started this. because someone close to me said, a male friend said, "You know, prayer is powerful.".

And I said, "Well, how?". And he said, "I don't know how, but if you can get... It can allow you to get outside yourself, let you give up control, and at the same time take control.". I don't even like saying take control. But the whole notion is that, and again, forgive me, but there's no other way to say it. The whole notion is that, you know, like God works through us, whatever God is to you, he, him, her, whatever, life force, like nature, whatever it is to you, right? That it works through us. And so I do a prayer, I'll just describe it,

where I ask, I make an ask to help remove my defects, my character defects. I pray to God to help remove my character defects. so that I can show up better in all the roles of my life. and do good work. Like to, which for me is learning and teaching. Learning and teaching. And so you might say, well, how is that different. than a meditation? Well, I'm acknowledging that there is something. that bigger than me, bigger than nature as I understand it,

that I cannot understand or control, nor do I want to. And I'm just giving over to that. And does that make me less of a scientist? I sure as hell hope not. I certainly know, there's the head of our neurosciences. at Stanford until recently. You should talk to him directly about it. Bill Newsome has talked about his religious life. For me, it's really a way of getting outside myself. and then understanding how I fit into this bigger picture. And the character defects part is real, right?

I'm a human, I have defects, like I got a lot of flaws in me, like anybody. But, and trying to acknowledge them. and asking for help in removing them, not magically, but through right action, through my right action. So I do that every morning. And I have to say that it's helped, it's helped a lot. It's helped me be better to myself, be better at other people.

I still make mistakes, but it's becoming a bigger part of my life. And I never thought I'd talk like this, but I think it's clear to me that. if we don't believe in something, again, doesn't have to be traditional, standardized religion, but if we don't believe in something bigger than ourselves, we at some level will self-destruct.

I really think so. And it's powerful in a way that all the other stuff, meditation, all the tools. is not because it's really operating. at a much deeper and bigger level. And, you know, yeah, I think that's all. I can talk about it, mostly because I'm still working out, you know, the scientists in me wants to understand. how it works, and I wanna understand. And the point is to just go, you know, there's you know,

for lack of a better language for it, there's higher power than me and what I can control, I'm giving up control on certain things. And somehow that restores a sense of agency. for right action, better action. - I think perhaps a part of that is just the humility. that comes with acknowledging there's something bigger. and more powerful than you. - And you can't control everything. I mean, that you go through life as a hard-driving person, you know, forward center of mass.

I remember being that way since I was little. It's like a new Legos, I'm like, I'm gonna make all the Legos. And it was like on the weekends, you know, learning about medieval weapons. and then giving lectures about it in class. when I was five or six years old, or learning about tropical fish. and, you know, cataloging all of them at the store, and then organizing it and making my, you know, my dad drive me or my mom drive me. to some fish store and then spending all my time there. until they throw me out, you know, all of that, but I also remember my entire life, I would secretly pray. When things were good and things weren't good, but mostly when things were weren't good.

'cause it's important to pray, for me, it's important to pray each morning regardless. But when things weren't right, I couldn't get make sense of 'em, I would secretly pray, but I felt kind of ashamed of that for whatever reason. And then it was once in college, I distinctly remember, I was having a hard time with a number of things. and I took a run down to Sands Beach, it was UC, Santa Barbara. And I remember I just, I was like, I don't know if I even have the right to do this,

but I'm just praying and I just prayed for. the ability to be as brutally honest with myself. and with other people as I possibly could be. about a particular situation I was in at that time. I mean, I think now it's probably safe to say, I'd gone off to college 'cause of a high school girlfriend. We had, essentially, she was my family, more frankly, more than my biological family was. at a certain stage of life. And we'd reached a point where we were diverging. and it was incredibly painful. It was like losing everything I had.

And it was like, what do I do? How do I manage this? Do I, you know, I was ready to quit. and join the fire service just to support us. so that we could move forward. And you know, it was just, but praying, just saying, I can't figure this out on my own. It's sort of like I can't figure this out on my own. And how frustrating that is that no number of friends. could tell me, or, and in her wisdom couldn't tell me. And eventually, it led me to the right answers. And she and I are are friendly friends to this day. She's happily married with a child and we're on good terms,

but I think, you know, it's a scary thing, but it's the best thing when you just, I can't control all this. And asking for help, I think is also the piece. You're not asking for some magic hand to come down. and take care of it. You're asking for the help to come through you, right? So that your body is used to do these right works, right action. - Isn't it interesting that this secret thing. that you're almost embarrassed by, that you did it as a child is something you,

it's another thing you do as you get older, as you realize, like those things are part of you, it's actually a beautiful thing. - Yeah, a lot of the content of the podcast is, you know, deep academic content and we talk about everything from, you know, eating disorders to bipolar disorders, to depression, you know, a lot of different topics, but the tools or the protocols as we say, right? The sunlight viewing and all the rest, you know, a lot of that stuff is just stuff. I wish I'd known when I was in graduate school. If I'd known to go outside every once in a while. and get some sunlight, not just stay in the lab,

I would've, you know, I might not have hit. like a really tough round of depression. when I was a postdoc and working twice as hard. And, you know, when my body would break down. or I'd get sick a lot, I don't get sick much anymore. Occasionally, about once every 18 months to two years. maybe I'll get something, but you know, I used to break my foot skateboarding. all the time, I couldn't understand what's wrong. with my body, I'm getting injured, I can't do what everyone else can. Now I developed more slowly, I had a long arc of puberty, but so that was part of it, I was still developing,

but you know, how to get your body stronger, how to build endurance? Like no one told me, the information wasn't there. So a lot of what I put out there is the information. that I wish I had. because once I had it, I was like, wow! Like A, this stuff really works. B, it's grounded in something real. You know, sometimes certain protocols. are a combination of, you know, animal, human, and animal, and human studies, sometimes clinical trials, sometimes there's some mechanistic conjecture. for some, not all, I always make clear which. But in the end,

like figuring out how things work so that we can be happier, healthier, more productive, suffer less, like reduce the suffering of the world. And I think that, well, I'll just say thank you. and for asking about the prayer piece. Again, I'm not pushing or even encouraging it on anyone, I've just found it to be tremendously useful for me.

- (sighs) You know, I mean about prayer in general, you said information and figuring out how to get stronger, healthier, smarter, all those kinds of things. A part of me believes that deeply, you know? You can gain a lot of knowledge and wisdom through learning. But a part of me believes that all the wisdom I need. was there when I was 11 and 12 years old. - And then it got cluttered over.

Well, listen, I can't wait for you and Conti to talk again. Because when he gets going about the subconscious. and the amount of this that sits below the surface. like an iceberg and the fact that when we're kids, we're not obscuring a lot of that subconscious as much. And sometimes that can look a little more primitive. I mean, that kid that's disappointed will let you know, that kid that's excited will let you know. And you feel that raw exuberance or that raw dismay.

And I think that as we grow older, we learn to cover that stuff up. We wear masks and we have to, to be functional, right? I don't think we all wanna go around. just being completely raw. But as you said, as you get older, you also, you get to this point where you kind of go, eh, you know, what are we really trying to protect anyway? I mean, I have this theory that, you know, certainly my experience has taught me. that a lot of people,

but I'll talk about men. 'cause that's what I know best. Whether or not they show up strong or not, that they're really afraid of being weak. Like they're just afraid. Like sometimes the strength is even a way. to try and not be weak, right? Which is different than being strong for its own sake. I'm not just talking about physical strength, I'm talking about intellectual strength. I'm talking about money. I'm talking about expressing drive.

I've been watching this series. a little bit of "Chimp Empire-". - Oh, yeah. - So Chimp Empire is amazing, right? They have the head chimp, he's not the head chimp, but the alpha in the group. And he's getting older. And so what does he do? Every once in a while he goes on these vigor displays. He goes and he grabs branch. He starts breaking him and he starts thrashing 'em, and he's incredibly strong, and they're all kind like watching. I mean, yeah, I immediately think of people. like they're deadlifting on Instagram. and I just think, displays a vigor.

This is just the primate showing that displays a vigor. Now what's interesting is that he's doing that specifically. to say, Hey, I still have what it takes. to lead this troop, okay? Then there're the ones that are subordinate to him, but not so far behind-. - It seems to be that there's a very clear, like numerical ranking. - There is. - Like, it's clear. who's the number two, number three? - Oh yeah. - I mean, probably-. - Who gets to mate first? Who gets to eat first? This exists in other animal societies too, but Bob Sapolsky would be a great person.

to talk about this with. 'cause he knows obviously, tremendous amount about it. And I know just the top contour, but yeah, so number two, three and four males. are aware that he's doing these vigor displays, but they're also aware. because in primate evolution. they got some extra forebrain too, not as much as us, but they got some, and they're aware that the vigor displays are displays that. because they've done them as well in a different context, might not just be displays of vigor, but might also be an insurance policy.

against people seeing weakness. Okay, so now they start using that prefrontal cortex. to do some interesting things. So in primate world, if a male is friendly with another male wants to affiliate. with him and say, Hey, I'm backing you, they'll go over and they'll pick off the little parasites. and eat them. And so the grooming is extremely important. In fact, if they want to ostracize. or kill one of the members of their troop,

they will just leave it alone. No one will groom it. And then there's actually a really disturbing sequence. in that show of then the parasites start. to eat away on their skin. They get infections, they have issues, no one will mate with them, no one, they have other issues as well and can potentially die. So the interesting thing is, is number two and three. start to line up a strategy to groom this guy, but they are actually thinking about overtaking. the entire troop, setting in a new alpha. But the current alpha did that to get where he is.

So he knows that they're doing this grooming thing, but they might not be sincere about the grooming. So what does he do? He takes the whole troop on a raid to another troop. and sees who will fight for him and who won't. This is advanced contracting of behavior. for a species that normally we don't think of. as sophisticated as us. So it's very interesting and it gets to something. that I hope we'll have an opportunity to talk about. 'cause it's something that I'm obsessed with lately. is this notion of overt versus covert contracts, right?

There are overt contracts where you exchange work for money. or you exchange any number of things in an overt way. But then there are covert contracts. And those take on a very different form. and always lead to, in my belief, bad things. - Well, how much of human and chimp relationships. are overt versus covert? - Well, here's one thing that we know is true. Dogs and humans, the dog to human relationship is 100% overt.

They don't manipulate you. Now you could say they do in the sense that they learn. that if they look a certain way or roll on their back, they get food. But there's no banking of that behavior. for a future date where then they're going to undermine you. and take your position, okay? So in that sense, dogs can be a little bit manipulative. in some sense, but. Now, okay, so overt contract would be, we both wanna do some work together.

We're gonna make some money. You get X percentage, I get X percentage, it's overt. Covert contract, which is, in my opinion, always bad. would be, we're gonna do some work together. You're gonna get a percentage of money, I'm gonna get a percentage of money, could look just like the overt contract, but secretly, I'm resentful that I got the percentage I got. So what I start doing is covertly taking something else. What do I take?

Maybe I take the opportunity to jab you verbally. every once in a while. Maybe I take the opportunity to show up late. Maybe I take the opportunity. to get to know one of your coworkers. so that I might start a business with them. That's covert contracting. And you see this sometimes in romantic relationships. One person, we won't set the male or female. in any direction here and just say, I'll make you feel powerful if you make me feel desired. Okay, great. There's nothing explicitly wrong about that contract. if they both know and they both agree,

but what if it's, I'll do that, but I'll have kids with you so you feel powerful, you'll have kids with me so I feel desired, but secretly, I don't want to do that. Or one person says, I don't wanna do that. or both don't, so what they end up doing is saying, okay, so I expect something else. I expect you to do certain things for me, or I expect you to pay for certain things for me. Covert contracts are the signature of everything bad. Overt contracts are the signature of all things good.

And I think about this a lot. because I've seen a lot of examples of this. Like anyone, we participate in these things. whether or not we want to or not. And the thing that gets transacted the most is, well, I should say the things. that get transacted the most. are the overt things. You'll see money, time, sex, property, whatever it happens to be, information.

But what ends up happening is that. when people I believe don't feel safe, they feel threatened in some way, like they don't feel safe in a certain interaction, what they do is they start taking something else. while still engaging in the exchange. And I'll tell you, if there's one thing about human nature that's bad, it's that feature. Why that feature? Or is it a bug, or a feature as you engineers like to say,

I think it's because we were allocated. a certain extra amount of prefrontal cortex. that makes us more sophisticated than a dog, more sophisticated than a chimpanzee, but they do it too. And it's because it's often harder. to deal with, in the short-term, to deal with the real sense of this is scary, this feels threatening. than it is to play out all the iterations. It takes a lot of brain work.

You're playing chess and go simultaneously try. and figure out where things are gonna end up, and we just don't know. So it's a way I think of creating. a false sense of certainty, but I'll tell you, covert contracts, the only certainty is that it's gonna end badly. The question is how badly? Conversely, overt contracts always end well. Always, the problem with overt contracts. is that you can't be certain that the other person. is not engaging in a covert contract. You can only take responsibility for your own contracting.

- Well, one of the challenges of being human. is looking at another human being and figuring out. the way, their way of being, their behavior, which of the two types of contracts it represents. because they look awfully the same on the surface. - That's right. - And one of the challenges. of being human is the decision we all make is, are you somebody that takes a leap of trust. and trust other humans and are willing to take the hurt? Or you going to be cynical and skeptical,

and avoid most interactions until. they over a long period of time prove your trust. - Yeah, I never liked the phrase history repeats itself. when it comes to humans. because it doesn't apply if the people. or the person is actively working. to resolve their own flaws. I do think that if people are willing. to do dedicated introspective work, go into their subconscious, do the hard work, have hard conversations,

and get better at hard conversations, something that I'm constantly trying to get better at. I think people can change, but they have to want to change. - It does seem like deep down. we all can kinda tell the difference. between overt and covert. Like we have a good sense. I think one of the benefits of having this characteristic. of mine where I value loyalty, I've been extremely fortunate. to spend most of my life in overt relationships. And I think that creates a really fulfilling life.

- But there's also this thing. that maybe we're in this portion of the podcast now, but I've experienced this- - That just brings us. this late at night we're talking. about. - That's right. Certainly late for me, but I'm two hours, I came in today on, I'm still in California. - And we should also say that you came here to wish me. a happy birthday. - I did. I did, and-. - And the podcast is just like. a fun last minute thing I suggested. - Yeah, some close friends of yours have arranged. a dinner that I'm really looking forward to. I won't say which night, but it's the next couple of nights.

You know, your circadian clock. is one of the most robust features of your biology. I know you can be nocturnal or you can be diurnal. We know you're mostly nocturnal at certain times. of the year, Lex, but there're very, very few people can get away. with no sleep. Very few people can get away. with a chaotic sleep wake schedule. So you have to obey a 24-hour aka circadian rhythm. if you wanna remain healthy of mind and body. We also have to acknowledge that. it's aging isn't linear, right? So-.

- What do you mean? - Well, I mean, the degree of change between years 35 and 40. is not gonna be the degree of change between 40 and 45. But I will say this, I'm 48 and I feel better in every aspect of my psychology. and biology now than I did when I was in my 20s. Sort of quality of thought, time spent,

physically I can do what I did then, which is probably says more about what I could do then. than what I can do now. But if you keep training, you can continue to get better. The key is to not get injured. And I've never trained super hard. I've trained hard, but I've been cautious to not, for instance, weight train more than two days in a row. I do a split, it's basically three days a week. and the other days a run, take one full day-off, take a week-off every 12 to 16 weeks. I've not been the guy hurling the heaviest weights. or running the furthest distance, but I have been the guy who's continuing to do it.

when a lot of my friends are talking about knee injuries. - Hey! - Talking about (chuckles). - Hey, hey, hey. (chuckles) - I'm just... But of course, with sport, you can't account for everything the same way. you can with fitness. And I have to acknowledge that, you know? Unless one is power lifting, you know, weightlifting and running, you can get hurt, but it's not like skateboarding where. if you're going for it, you're gonna get hurt. That's just, you're landing on concrete. and with jiu-jitsu like people are trying to hurt you.

so that you say stop. - No, but it- - So with a sport. it's different. And these days, I don't really do a sport any longer. I work out, stay fit. I used to continue to do sports, but I kept getting hurt and frankly now, like a rolled ankle, I may put out a little small skateboard part in 2024. because people have been saying we wanna see the kick flip. I'll say, well, I'll do a heel flip instead, but okay.

I might put out a little part. 'cause some of the guys that work on our podcast. are from DC, I think by now, I should at least do it just to show. like I'm not making it up and I probably will. But I think doing a sport is different. That's how you get hurt, overuse and doing it an actual sport. And so, you know, hat tip to those who do an actual sport. - And that's a difficult decision. Like a lot of people have to make, I have to make with jiu-jitsu for example, like if you just look empirically,

I've trained really hard from all my life. in grappling sports and fighting sports, and all this kind of stuff. And I've avoided injury for the most part. And I would say, I would attribute that to training a lot. Sounds counterintuitive, but training well and safely, and correctly, keeping good form, saying no when I need to say no, but training a lot and taking it seriously. Now when training is kind of a side, really a side thing, I find that the injury is becomes a higher probability.

- But when you're just doing it every once in a while. - [Lex] Every once in a while. - Yeah, I think you said something really important. The saying no, I mean, the times I have gotten hurt training. is when someone's like, Hey, let's hop on this workout together. and it becomes, let's challenge each other. to do something outrageous. Sometimes that can be fun though. I went up to Cam Hanes's gym. and he does these very high repetition weight workouts. that are in circuit form. I was sore for two weeks, but I learned a lot and didn't get injured.

And yes, we ate bow hunted elk afterwards. - Nice. But the injury has been. a really difficult psychological thing for me. 'cause, so I've injured my finger, pinky finger, injured my knee. - And your kitchen is filled with splints. - Splints, I'm trying to figure out, (chuckles). I'm trying- - It's like, if you look in Lex's kitchen, there's some really good snacks, I had some right before.

He's very good about keeping cold drinks in the fridge. and all the water has element in it, which is great. I love that. But then there's a whole like hospital's worth of splints. - Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying to figure out, so here's the thing, a finger like pop out like this, right? Pinky finger. I'm trying to figure out how do I splint in such a way. that I can still program, still play guitar, but protect this kind of torque motion. that creates a huge amount of pain. And so- - That's you have. a jiu-jitsu injury. - Jiu-jitsu,

but it's not the kind of... It's probably more like a skateboarding style injury, which is, it's unexpected in a silly thing. - It's the thing that happens in a second. I didn't break my foot doing anything important. I'd broke my fifth metatarsal stepping off a curb. So that's why they're called accidents. You know, if you get hurt doing something awesome, that's a trophy that you have to work through. It's part of your payment to the universe.

If you get hurt stepping off a curb. or you know, doing something stupid, it's called a stupid accident. - Since we brought up Chimp Empire, let me ask you about relationships. I think we've talked about relationships. - Yeah, I only date Homo sapiens. - Homo sapiens. (chuckles). - [Andrew] It's the morning meditation. - The night is still young. You are human. No, but you are also an animal. Don't sell yourself short. - No, I always say listen, any discussion on the Human Lab podcast. about sexual health or anything, I always,

the critical force, consensual, age appropriate context, appropriate, species appropriate. - Species appropriate. Well, can I just tell you about sexual selection? I've been watching "Life in Color" with David Attenborough. I've been watching a lot of nature documentaries, talking about inner peace, it brings me so much peace. to watch nature at its worst and at its best. So Life in Color is the series on Netflix where. it presents some of the most colorful animals on earth. and kinda tells their story of how they got there.

through natural selection. So, you know, you have the peacock with the feathers. and it's just such incredible colors. Like the peacock has these tail feathers, the male, that are like gigantic and they're super colorful. And there're these eyes on it, it's not eyes, it's like eye-like areas. And they wiggle their ass like to show the tails. They wiggle the tails. - The eye spots, they're called. - The eye spots. Yes, thank you. You know this probably way better than me. I'm just quoting it.

from David Attenborough. - No, please continue. - But it's just, I'm watching this. and then the female is as boring-looking as po... Like she has no colors or nothing, but she's standing there bored, just seeing this entire display. And I'm just wondering like the entirety of life on earth. or not the entirety, post bacteria, is like at least in part, maybe in large part can be described through this process. of natural selection, of sexual selection. So dudes fighting.

and then women selecting, it seems like it's just the entirety of that series. shows some incredible birds and insects, and shrimp. They're all beautiful and colorful. and just- - Mantis shrimp. - Mantis shrimp, they're just, they're incredible. And it's all about getting laid. It's fascinating, like I just... And there's nothing like watching that and Chimp Empire. to make you realize, we humans, that's the same thing.

That's all we're doing. And all the beautiful variety, all the bridges. and the buildings, and the rockets, and the internet, all of that is this kind, is at least in part, this kind of a product of this kind of showing off. for each other. and all the wars and all of this, anyway, it's not what I'm asking, oh, relationships. - Well, right before you ask about relationships, I think what's clear is that every species,

it seems, animal species wants to make more of itself. and protect its young. - Well, to protect its young is non-obvious. - So not destroy enough of itself that it can't get more. to reproductive competent age. I mean, I think that, you know, we have a natural, I mean, healthy people have a natural reflex. to protect children. - Well, I don't know that. - And those, that can't-.

- Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait minute. I've seen enough animals that are murdering. the children of some other-. - Sure, there's even siblicide there're like, first of all, I just wanna say that. I was delighted in your delight around animal kingdom stuff. 'cause this is a favorite theme of mine as well. But there's for instance, some fascinating data on, for instance, for those that grew up on farms, they'll be familiar with freemartins, you know about freemartins? This is, they're cows that have multiple calves inside them.

And there's a situation in which the calves. will secrete if there's more than one inside. will secrete chemicals that will hormonally castrate. the calf next to them, so they can't reproduce. So already in the womb they are fighting. for future resources. That's how early this stuff can start. So it's chemical warfare in the womb against the siblings. Sometimes there's outright siblicide, siblings are born, they kill one another.

This also becomes biblical stories, right? There are instances of cuttlefish, beautiful cephalopods like octopuses. And that is the plural as. we made it clear- - Yeah, it's a meme. on the internet. - Oh yeah? That became a meme our little discussion. two years ago? - Yeah, it spread pretty quick. And now we just resurfaced it. (Andrew laughing). - Creating the dismay in your voice is so amusing. In any event, that male cuttlefish will disguise themselves. as female cuttlefish infiltrate the female cuttlefish group.

and then mate with them, you know? All sorts of, you know, types of covert. operations. - There we go. - [Andrew] So I think that- (chuckles). - Callbacks. - It's like a drinking game. where every time we say covert contract in this episode, you have to take a shot of espresso. Please don't do that, you'd be dead by the end. - So actually it's just a small tangent, it does make me wonder. how much intelligence covert contracts require.

It seems like not much. If you can do it in the animal kingdom, there's some kind of instinctual, it is based perhaps in like fear. - Yeah, it could be simple algorithm. If you know, if there's some ambiguity. about numbers and I'm not with these guys and you know, then flip to the alternate strategy. Actually, I have a story about this. that I think is relevant. I used to have cuttlefish in my lab in San Diego. We went and got them from a guy out in the desert. We put them in the lab, it was amazing.

And they had a postdoc. who was studying pre-capturing cuttlefish, they have a very ballistic, extremely rapid strike and grab of the shrimp. And we were using high-speed cameras. to characterize all this looking at binocular. They normally have their eyes on the side of their head. when they see something they want to eat. the eyes translocate to the front, which allows 'em stereopsis, depth perception, allows 'em to strike. We were doing some unilateral eye removals, they would miss, et cetera. Okay, this has to do with eye spots. This was during a government shutdown period.

where the ghost shrimp that they normally feed on, that we would ship in from the gulf down here, weren't available to us. So we had to get different shrimp. And what we noticed was the cuttlefish normally. would just sneak up on the shrimp. We learned this by data collection. And if the shrimp was facing them, they would do this thing with their tentacles. of kind of enchanting the shrimp, and if the shrimp wasn't facing them, they wouldn't do it.

and they would ballistically grab it and eat them. Well, when we got these new shrimp, the new shrimp had eye spots on their tails. And then the cuttlefish would do this kind of attempt. to enchant regardless of the position of the ghost shrimp. So what does that mean? Okay, well, it means that there's some sort of algorithm. in the cuttlefish's mind that says, okay, if you see two spots, move your tentacles. So it can be, as you pointed out, it can be a fairly simple operation, but it looks diabolical. It looks cunning, but all it is, is strategy B.

- Yeah, but it's still somehow emerged. I mean, I don't think that calling it an algorithm doesn't, I feel like- - Well, there's a circuit. there that gets implemented in a certain context, but that circuit had to evolve. - You do realize a super intelligent AI. will look at us humans and we'll say the exact thing. There's a circuit in there that evolved. to do this algorithm A and algorithm B.

And it's trivial. And to us humans, it's fancy and beautiful. and write poetry about it, but it's just surreal. - Because so. we don't understand the subconscious. because they want that AI algorithm cannot see. into what it can't see. It doesn't understand the under workings. of what allows all of this conversation stuff to manifest. And we can't even see it. How could AI see it? Maybe it will, maybe AI will solve. and give us access to our subconscious. Maybe your AI friend or coach, like I think Andreessen and others.

are arguing it's gonna happen at some point it's gonna say, Hey, you know, Lex, you're making decisions lately that are not good for you, but it's because of this algorithm. that you picked up in childhood. that if you don't state your explicit needs upfront, you're not gonna get what you want, so why do it? From now on, you need to actually make a list. of every, absolutely, outrageous thing. that you want no matter how outrageous. and communicate that immediately. And that will work.

- We're talking about cuttlefish and sexual selection, and then we went into some, where do we go? And you said you were excited. - Well, I was excited. where you were just saying what about these covert contracts. and animals do them, I think is simple contextual engagement. of a neural circuit, which is not just nerd speak. for saying they do a different strategy. It's saying that there has to be a circuit there, hardwired circuit, maybe learned, but probably hardwired that can be engaged, right? You can't build neural machinery out of, in a moment,

you need to build that circuit over time. What is building it over time? You select for it. The cuttlefish that did not have. that alternate context-driven circuit, didn't survive when there was a, when all the shrimp that they normally disappear in the, the eye-spotted shrimp showed up. and there were a couple that had some miswiring, this is why mutation, right? X-Men type stuff is real. They had a mutation that had some alternate wiring. and that wiring got selected for,

it became a mutation that was adaptive. as opposed to maladaptive. This is something people don't often understand. about genetics is that. it only takes a few generations to devolve a trait, make it worse, but it takes a long time to evolve an adaptive trait. There are exceptions to that, but most often that's true. So a species needs a lot of generations. We are hopefully, still evolving as a species. and it takes a long time, but to evolve more adaptive traits.

But doesn't take long to devolve adaptive traits. so that you're getting sicker. or you're not functioning as well. So choose your mate wisely. And that's perhaps a good segue into sexual selection. of humans. - I could tell. you're good at this. (Andrew chuckling). We said why did I bring up sexual selection? It's relationships, so sexual selection in humans. I don't think you've done an episode on relationships. - No, I did an episode on attachment, but not on relationships.

The series with Conti includes one episode of the four. that's all about relational understanding. and how to select a mate based on matching of drives and-. - All the demons inside the subconscious? How to match demons that they dance well together or what? - And how generative two people are. - [Lex] What does that mean? - Means that how, the way he explains it is, how devoted to creating growth within the context.

of the family, the relationship with work. - Well, lemme ask you about mating rituals. and how to find such a relationship? I mean, you're really big on friendships, on the value of friendships. - I am. - And that I think extends itself into. one of the deepest kinds of friendships you can have, which is a romantic relationship. What mistakes, successes and wisdom can you impart?

- Well, I've certainly made some mistakes. I've also made some good choices in this realm. First of all, we have to define. what sort of relationship we're talking about. If one is looking for a life partner, you know, potentially somebody to establish family with, with or without kids, with or without pets, right? Families can take different forms. I mean, I certainly experienced being a family. in a prior relationship where it was the two of us. and our two dogs. And it was like, it was family. Like we had a little family.

I think based on my experience and based on input. from friends who themselves. have very successful relationships. I must say, I've got friends who are in long-term, monogamous, very happy relationships. where there seems to be a lot of love, a lot of laughter,

a lot of challenge and a lot of growth. And both people it seems really want to be there. and enjoy being there. - Just to pause on that, one thing to do, I think, by way of advice. is listen to people who are. in long-term successful relationships. That's like, it seems dumb, but like we both know and are friends with Joe Rogan, who's been in a long-term, really great relationship. and he's been an inspiration to me.

So you take advice from that guy? - Definitely. And several members of my podcast team. are in excellent relationships. I think one of the things that rings true over. and over again in the advice and in my experience is, you know, find someone who's really a great friend. Like build a really great friendship with that person. Now, obviously, not just a friend. if we're talking romantic relationship, but, and of course, sex is super important,

but it should be a part of that particular relationship. alongside or meshed with the friendship. Can it be a majority of the positive exchange? I suppose it could, but I think the friendship piece is extremely important. because what's required in a successful relationship clearly. is joy in being together. Trust, a desire to share experience both,

you know, mundane and more adventurous, support each other, acceptance, a real, maybe even admiration, but certainly delight in being with the person. You know, earlier we were talking about peace, and I think that that sense of peace comes from knowing. that the person you're in friendship with. or that you're in romantic relationship or ideally both. 'cause let's assume healthy relation, the best romantic relationship includes.

a friendship component with that person. It's like you just really delight in their presence, even if it's a quiet presence. and you delight in seeing them delight in things, right? That's clear. The trust piece is huge, you know, and that's where people start, you know, we don't wanna focus on what works, not what doesn't work, but that's where I think people start. engaging these covert contracts. They're afraid of being betrayed, so they betray.

They're afraid of giving up too much vulnerability. so they hide their vulnerability or in the worst cases, they feign vulnerability. Again, that's a covert contract. that just simply undermines everything, it becomes one, both one equals two minus one to infinity. Conversely, I think if people. can have really hard conversations, this is something I've had to work really hard on. in recent years that I'm still working hard on, but the friendship piece seems to be the thing.

that rises to the top when I talk to friends. who are in these great relationships. It's like they have so much respect and love, and joy in being with their friend. It's the person that they wanna spend. as much of their non-working, non-platonic friendship time with. and the person they want to experience things with, and share things with. And it sounds so kinda canned and cliche nowadays, but I think if you step back and examine how most people go.

about finding a relationship, sort of like, oh, like am I attracted, of course, physical attraction. is important and other forms of attraction too, and they sort of enter through that portal, which makes sense. That's the mating dance, right? That's the peacock situation. That's hopefully not the cuttlefish situation where the, (chuckles) but I think that. there seems to be a history of people close. to me getting into great relationships. where they were friends for a while first.

or maybe didn't sleep together right away. That they actually intentionally deferred on that. This has not been my habit or my experience, you know, I've gone the more I think typical. like, oh, there's an attraction like this person, there's an interest, you kinda explore all dimensions. of relationship really quickly, except perhaps the moving in part and the having kids part, which ideally because it's a bigger step, harder to undo without more severe consequences. But I think, the whole take it slow thing,

I don't think is about getting to know someone slowly. I think it's about that physical piece. because that does change the nature of the relationship. And I think it's because it gets right. into the more hardwired primitive circuitry. around our feelings of safety, vulnerability, you know, there's something about. romantic and sexual interactions where it's almost like, it's like assets and liabilities, right?

Where people are trying to figure out. how much to engage their time and their energy, in multiple people, I'm talking about from both sides, you know, male, female or whatever it sides, but where it's like assets and liabilities, and that's where it starts getting. into those complicated contracts early on, I think. And so maybe that's why if a really great friendship. and admiration is established first, even if people are romantically and sexually attracted. to one another, then that piece can be added in.

a little bit later in a way that. really kinda just seals up the whole thing. And then who knows, maybe they spend 90% of their time having sex, I don't know, that's not for me to say or decide, obviously. But there's something there about staying out. of a certain amount of. risk of having to engage covert contract. in order to protect oneself. - But I do think like,

love at first sight, this kind of idea is in part. realizing very quickly that you are great friends. Like I've had that experience of friendship recently. It's not really friendship, but like, oh, you get each other, with humans, not in a romantic setting. - Right, friendship. - Yeah, just friendship, but not- - Well, but dare I say, I felt that way about you when we met, right? - But we also-. - I was like, this dude's cool. and he's smart, and he's funny, and he's driven,

and he's giving, and he's got an edge, and like, I wanna learn from him, wanna hang out with him. Like, I mean, that was the beginning of our friendship. was essentially, you know, that set of internal realizations. - Just keep going, just keep going. Keep going with compliments. - And a sharp dresser. - Yeah, yeah, it just looks great. Shirtless on a horseback, yes. - No, no, no. Listen, I mean, despite what some people might see. on the internet, it's a purely platonic friendship. - Somebody said, somebody asked if Andrew Huberman.

has a girlfriend, and somebody says, I think so. And the third comment was, this really like breaks my heart, like that Lex and Andrew are not an item. - We are not, we are great friends, but we are not an item. Yeah, it's true, it's official. I hear over and over again from friends. that have made great choices and awesome partners, and have these fantastic relationships. for long periods of time that seem to continue to thrive.

At least that's what they tell me, and that's what I observed. Establish the friendship first. and give it a bit of time before sex. And so, you know, I think that's the feeling. That's the feeling. And these are, we're talking micro-features. and macro-features. We're talking, you know, and this isn't about perfection, it's actually about the imperfections, which is kind of cool. I like quirky people, I like characters. I'll tell you where I've gone badly wrong.

and where I see other people going badly wrong. If there is no rule that says that you have to be attracted. to all attractive people, by any means, it's very important to develop. a sense of taste in romantic attractions. I believe what you really like in terms of a certain style, you know, a certain way of being, and of course, that includes sexuality and sex itself, the verb.

But I think it also includes there's just general way. of being, you know? And when you really adore somebody, you like the way they answer the phone. And when they don't answer the phone that way, you know, something's off and you wanna know. And so I think that. the more you can tune-up your powers of observation, not looking for things that you like, and the more that stuff just kinda washes over you, the more likely you are to, quote-unquote, "fall in love.". As a mutual friend of ours said to me,

"You know, listen, when it comes to romantic relationships, if it's not a hundred percent in you, it ain't happening.". And I've never seen a violation of that statement. where it's like, yeah, it's mostly good and they're this and this, like the negotiations. Well, already, it's doomed. And that doesn't mean someone has to be perfect. The relationship has to be perfect, but it's gotta feel a hundred percent inside. Like, yes, yes, and yes. I think Deisseroth, when he was on here, your podcast,

mentioned something that, you know, like, I think the words were you, or maybe it was in his book, I don't recall. But that, you know, love is one of these things. that we story into with somebody. We create this idea of ourselves in the future. and we look at our past time together. and then you, you story into it. I mean, there are very few things like that, I can't story into, you know, building flying cars. I have to actually go do something. I mean, and love is also retroactively constructed.

I mean, anyone who's gone through a breakup. understands the grief of knowing, oh, like this is something I really shouldn't be in, for whatever reason, 'cause it only takes one. If the other person doesn't want to be in it, then you shouldn't be in it. But then missing so many things, and that's just the attachment machinery really at work. - I have to ask you a question that somebody. on our amazing team wanted to ask. He's happily married, another like you mentioned incredible relationship. - Are they good friends?

- They're amazing friends. - There you go. - But I'm not saying who it is, so I can say some stuff, which is they, it started out as a great sexual connection. - Oh, well there you go. - But then became very close friends after that. - Okay, listening- - There you go. - So speaking of sex- - Many paths to Rome. - He has a wonderful son. and he is wanting to have a second kid, and he wanted to ask the great Andrew Huberman, is there like sexual positions or any kinda thing. that can help maximize the chance.

that they have a girl versus a boy? 'Cause they had a wonderful boy, they want a girl. Is there a way to control the gender? - Well, this has been debated for a long time. and I did a four and a half hour episode on fertility. And the reason I did a four and a half hour episode. on fertility is that, first of all, I find it that reproductive biology be fascinating. And I wanted a resource for people that. were thinking about or struggling with having kids.

for whatever reason. And it felt important to me to combine. the male and female components in the same episode. It's all timestamped, so you don't have to listen to the whole thing. We talk about IVF, in vitro fertilization. and we talk about natural pregnancy. Okay, the data on position is very interesting. But let me just say a few things. There are a few clinics now in particular, some out of the United States that are spinning down sperm. and finding that they can separate out fractions. as they're called, you know, that can spin the sperm down at a given speed. and they'll separate out at different.

sort of depths within the test tube. that allow them to pull out the sperm on top. or below and bias the probability. towards male or female births. It's not perfect. It's not a hundred percent. It's a very costly procedure. It's still very controversial. Now with in vitro fertilization, you can extract eggs, you can do introduce a sperm directly. by pipette and it's a process called ICSI. or you can set up a sperm race in a dish. And if you get a number of different embryos,

meaning the eggs get fertilized to duplicate. and start form a blastocyst, which is a ball of cells, early embryo, then you can do karyotyping. So you can do, look for XX or XY, select the XY, which then would give rise to a male offspring. and implant that one. So there is that kind of sex selection. With respect to position, there's a lot of lore. that, you know, if the woman is on top. or the woman's on the bottom, or whether or not the penetration is from behind,

whether or not it's gonna be male or female offspring. And frankly, the data are not great as you can imagine. 'cause those would be interesting studies to run, perhaps. - But there is studies, there is papers. - [Andrew] There are some-. - But they're not, I guess. there's more lore than sciences. - And there are a lot of other variables. that are hard to control. So for instance, if it's ejaculation during intermission, during sex penetration, et cetera,

then you can't measure, for instance, sperm volume as opposed to when it's IVF, and they can actually measure how many milliliters, how many forward motile sperm, it's hard to control. for certain things. And it just can vary between individuals. and even from one ejaculation to the next. And, okay, so there's too many variables. However, the position thing is interesting. in the following way. And then I'll answer whether or not you can bias. towards a female. But as long as we're talking about sexual-. - [Lex] I have other questions. about sexual- - But as long. as we're talking about sexual position.

There are data that support the idea. that in order to increase the probability. of successful fertilization, that indeed the woman should not stand upright after sex. and should right after the man has ejaculated inside her. and should adjust her pelvis, say 15 degrees upwards. I mean, you know, some of the fertility experts,

MDs will say, that's crazy, you know, but others that I sought out, and not specifically for this answer, but for researching that episode, said that, yeah, you know what? You're talking about. is trying to get the maximum number of sperm. and it's contained in semen and yes, the semen can leak out. And so keeping the pelvis tilted for about at 15 degrees. for about 15 minutes, obviously, tilted in the direction. that would have things running upstream, not downstream, so to speak. - Yeah, gravity. - Gravity, it's real,

you know, so for maximizing fertilization, you know, the doctors I spoke to just said, look, given that if people are trying to get pregnant, what is spending 15 minutes on their back, you know, this sort of thing. Okay, so then with respect to female getting. a female offspring or XX, female offspring, selectively, there is the idea that as fathers get older,

they're more likely to have daughters as opposed to sons. That's a, from the papers I've read is a significant, but still mildly significant result. So with each passing year, this person increases the probability. they're gonna have a daughter, not a son. But look, so that's interesting. - But the probability differences are probably tiny as you-. - I mean, it's not, you know, it's not trivial, it's not a trivial difference. But if they want to ensure having a daughter,

then they should do IVF and select an XX embryo. And when you go through IVF, they genetically screen them for karyotype, which is XX, XY. And they look at mutations, genotypic mutations for things like, you know, trisomies and aneuploidies, all the stuff you don't want. - But there is a lot of lore if you look. on the internet. - Sure, different foods-. - [Lex] So there are a lot of variables-. - There's a lot of variable, but there haven't been systematic studies.

So I think probably the best thing to do, unless they're gonna do IVF is just, you know, roll the dice and you know, and I think with each passing year they increase. the probability of getting a female offspring, but of course, with each passing year, the egg and sperm quality degrade, so, you know, get after it soon. - So I went down a rabbit hole. There's like sexology, there's journals on sex. - Sure.

- Okay, so- - And some of them, some of them, not all quite reputable. And some of them really pioneering in the sense that. they've taken on topics that are, you know, considered, you know, outside the main frame of what people talk about, but they're very important. We have episodes coming out soon with, for instance, the head of male urology, sexual health. and reproductive health at Stanford, Michael Eisenberg, but also, you know, one with a female urologist, sexual health,

reproductive health, Dr. Rena Malik, who is on, has a quite active YouTube presence. She does these really like dry, like scientific presentation, but very nice. She has a lovely voice and she, but she'll be talking about, you know, erections or squirting, or like all this, like she does like very kind of internet type content, but she's a legitimate urologist, reproductive health expert. And in the podcast, we did talk about.

both male and female orgasm. We talked a lot about sexual function, dysfunction. We talked a lot about pelvic floor. One interesting factoid is that. only three, only 3% of sexual dysfunction is. hormonal endocrine in nature. It's more often related to some pelvic floor. or vasculature blood flow related, or other issue. And then when Eisenberg, he came on the podcast,

he said that far less sexual dysfunction. is psychogenic in origin. than people believe that far more of it is pelvic floor, neuro and vascular. So, you know, there are the myths of, I mean, it's not saying. that psychogenic dysfunction doesn't exist, but that a lot of sexual dysfunction that people assume. is related to hormones or that is related. to psychogenic issues are related to vascular. or neural issues. And the good news is that. there are great remedies for those.

And so both those episodes detail some. of the more salient points around what those remedies are. and could be, I mean, one of the kind of, again, factoids, but it was interesting that, you know, a lot of people have pelvic floor issues. and they think that their pelvic floors. are quote-unquote, "messed up.". So they go on the internet, they learn about Kegels, you know, and it turns out that some people need Kegels, they need to strengthen their pelvic floor, guess what? A huge number of people with sexual and urologic dysfunction.

have pelvic floors that are too tight. and Kegels are gonna make them far worse. And they actually need to learn to relax their pelvic floor. And so seeing a pelvic floor specialist is important. I think in the next 5, 10 years, we're gonna see a dramatic shift towards more discussion. about sexual and reproductive health. in a way that acknowledges that, yeah, the clitoris comes from the same origin tissue. as the penis. And in many ways, the neural innervation of the two, while clearly different, has some overlapping features.

that you know, that there's gonna be discussion around. kind of anatomy and hormones, and pelvic floors, and in a way that's gonna, you know, erode some of the kind of like cloaking of these topics. 'cause they've been cloaked for a long time. and there's a lot of like, well, let's just call it what it is, there's a lot of bullshit out there about what's what. And now the hormonal issues, by the way, just to clarify, can impact desire.

So a lot of people who have lack of desire. as opposed to lack of anatomical function, this could be male or female, that can originate with either things like SSRIs, or hormonal issues. And so we talk about that as well. So it's a pretty vast topic. - Okay, you're one of the most productive people I know. What's the secret to your productivity? How do you maximize the number of productive hours in a day? You're a scientist, you're a teacher, you're a very prolific educator.

- Well, thanks for the kind words. I struggle like everybody else, but I am pretty relentless about. meeting deadlines. I miss them sometimes, but sometimes that means cramming. Sometimes that means starting early, but-. - Has that been hard, sorry to interrupt, with the podcast, there's certain episodes, I mean, you're like taking just incredibly difficult topics. and you know, there're going to be, there's going to be a lot of really good scientists.

listening to those with a very skeptical and careful eye. Like how hard, do you struggle meeting that deadline sometimes? - Yes, so we've pushed out episodes. because I want more time with them. I also, I haven't advertised this, but I have another fully tenured professor. that's started checking my podcasts. and helping me find papers. He's a close friend of mine, he's an incredible expert in neuroplasticity.

and that's been helpful. But I research all my all, I do all the primary research. for the episodes myself. Although, my niece has been doing a summer internship. with me and finding amazing papers. She did last summer as well, she's really good at it. Just seek that kid on the internet and she gets great stuff. - Can I ask you just going on tangents here, what's the hardest, finding the papers. or understanding what a paper is saying? - Finding the best papers. 'Cause you have to, you know, read a bunch of reviews,

figure out who's getting cited. Call people in a field, make sure that this is the stuff. I mean, you know, I did this episode recently. on ketamine, about ketamine. I wasn't on ketamine and you know, there's this whole debate about S versus R Ketamine. and S/R Ketamine. And I called two clinical experts at Stanford. I had a researcher at UCLA help me. Even then, you know, a few people had gripes about it, that I don't think they understood a section. that I was perhaps could have been clearer about. But yeah, you're always concerned that people.

either won't get it or I won't be clear. So the researching is mainly about finding the best papers, and then I'm looking for papers that establish. a thoroughness of understanding. that are interesting, obviously, it's fun to get occasionally look at some of the odder. or more progressive papers that are, you know, what's new in a field and then. where there are actionable takeaways. to really export those with a lot of thoughtfulness. I mean, I think that going back to the productivity thing,

you know, I do, I get up, I look at the sun. I don't stare at the sun, but I get my sunshine. It all starts with a really good night's sleep. I think that's really important to understand. So much so that if I wake up and I don't feel rested enough, I'll often do a non-sleep deep rest, yoga nidra, or go back to sleep for a little bit, get up, really prioritize one, you know, the big block of work for the thing that I'm researching. I think a little bit of anxiety and a little bit of concern. about deadline helps. Turning the phone off helps.

Realizing that those peak hours, whenever they are for you, you do not allow those hours to be invaded. unless there's a, you know, a nuclear bomb goes off. And a nuclear bomb is just a, you know, a phraseology for, you know, it could be family crisis, would be, you know, would be good justification. if there's an emergency, obviously. But it's all about focus. It's all about focus in the moment. It's not even so much about how many hours you log.

It's really about focus in the moment. How much total focus can you give to something? And then I like to take walks and think about things. and sometimes talk about them in my voice recorder. So I'm just always churning on it all the time. And then of course, learning to turn it off and engage with people socially. and, you know, not be podcasting 24 hours a day. in your head is key. But I think I love learning and researching, and finding that those papers and the information, and I love teaching it.

And these days I use a whiteboard before I start. I don't have any notes, no teleprompter. Then the whiteboard that I used beforehand. is to really sculpt out the different elements and the flow, get the flow right, and move things around. The whiteboard is such a valuable tool. Then take a couple pictures of that when I'm happy with it, put it down on the desk and these are just bullet points. and then just churn through, and just churn through. And nothing feels better than, you know, researching and sharing information. And as you did, you know, grew up writing papers.

and it's hard. And I like the friction of a, (grunts). can't, you know, I wanna get up, wanna use the bathroom. When I was in college, I was trying to make up deficiencies. from my lack of attendance in high school. So much so that I would set a timer. I wouldn't let myself get up to use the bathroom, even. Never had an accident, but I was, you know, I mean, it was like, I listened to music, classical music, Rancid, a few other things. Some Bob Dylan maybe thrown in there.

and just study and just... And it felt, and then, you know, hit the two-hour mark and you're in pain, and then you get up, like use the bathroom. Like, that felt so good. There's something about the human brain. that likes these kind of friction points. and working through them. and you just have to work through them. So yeah, I'm productive. and my life has arranged around it and you know, that's been a bit of a barrier to personal life at times, but my life's been arranged around it. I've set up everything so that I can learn more, teach more,

including, you know, some of my home life. But I do, you know, still watch Chimp Empire. Still got time to watch Chimp Empire. Look, the great Joe Strummer, right, Clash. or my favorite Mescaleros, he said, this is a famous Strummer quote, "no input, no output.". So you need experience, you need outside things in order. to foster the process. But yeah, just noses the grindstone man, I don't know.

And that's what I'm happy to do with my life. I don't think anyone should do that, just because, but this is how I'm showing up. And, you know, if you don't like me, then scroll. Why do they say swipe left, swipe right? I don't know. I'm not on the apps, the dating apps. So that's the other thing I keep waiting for when. listens to Lex Fridman podcast is a check box. on like Hinge or Bumble, or whatever it is. But I don't even know are those that are field is, I don't know what are the apps now?

- Well, I've never used an app, those foul troublesome how little information. is provided on apps. - Well, they're the ones that are like a stocked lake. Like Raya, you know? They sort of like, companies will actually fill them with, you know? - Oh, interesting. - People that look a certain way and-. - Well, soon it'll be filled with AI. - Oh yeah. - That's the way you said, oh. - Oh, that's interesting. - A heartbreak within that. - Well, you know, I'm guilty. of liking real human interaction.

- Have you tried AI interaction? (Lex and Andrew chuckling). - No, but I have a feeling you're gonna convince me to. (Lex and Andrew chuckling). - One day. Yeah, I've also struggled finishing projects that are new, that are something new. Like for example, one of the things I really struggled finishing. is something that's in Russian that requires translation. and overdub, and all that kind of stuff. The other project I've been working on for like, over at least a year,

off and on, but trying to finish. is something we've talked about in the past is, I'm still on it project on Hitler and World War II. I've written so much about it. and I just don't know why I can't finish it. I have trouble, like really... I think I'm terrified being in front of the camera. - Like this? - Like this. - Or solo? - Well, actually, no, no, no. Solo, basically. - Well, if you wanna do solo. and seriously, 'cause we've done this before, right? Our clandestine study missions. I'm happy to sit in the corner and work on my book.

or do something if you wanna, if it feels good-. - Just for the feeling of somebody else. - Definitely. - What do you, I mean, how do you... You don't seem to, you seem to have been fearless, to just sit in front of the camera by yourself. to do the episode. - Yeah, it was weird. I mean, the first year of the podcast, it just spilled outta me. It was just, I had all that stuff I was so excited about. I've been talking to everyone and who would listen. and anyone even when, who they'd run away,

I'd keep talking, you know, before there was ever a camera wasn't on social media. In 2019, I posted a little bit, 2020, as you know, I started going on podcasts. But yeah, I just... The zest and delight in this stuff. I was like, circadian rhythms, I'm gonna tell you about this stuff. Just felt like, here's the opportunity. and just let it burst. And then as we've gotten into topics. that are a little bit further away from my home knowledge, you know, like I still get super excited about it.

It's music in the brain episode I've been researching. for a while now, I'm just so hyped, I keep thinking about it. It's so interesting. There's so many facets. Singing versus improvisational, excuse me, music. versus I'm listening to music versus learning music. I mean that, it just goes on and on. There's just so much, that's so interesting. I just can't get enough and I think, I dunno, you put a camera in front of me, I sort of forget about it and I'm just trying to just teach.

- Yeah, so that's the difference, that's interesting. I mean- - Forget the camera. - Maybe I need to find that joy as well, but like for me, a lot of the joys in the writing, and the camera, there's something-. - Well, the best lecturers, as you know, and you're in a phenomenal lecturer, so you embody this as well. But when I teach at Stanford, I was directing this course in neuroanatomy. and neuroscience for medical students. And I noticed that the best lecturers would come in. and they're teaching the material. from a place of deep understanding, but they're also experiencing it as a first-time learner.

as at the same time. So it's just sort of embodying the delight of it, but also the authority over the, not authority, but the sort of mastery of the material. And it's really the delight in it. that the students are linking onto it. And of course, they need and deserve. the best accurate material, so they have to know what they're talking about. But yeah, just tap into that energy of learning. and loving it, and people are long for the ride. Or you know, I get accused of being long-winded, but, you know, things get taken outta context.

that leads to greater misunderstanding. And also I look at, listen, I come from a lineage of three dead advisors, three, all three. So I don't know when the reaper's coming for me. I'm doing my best to stay alive a long time. But whether or not it's a bullet or a bus, or cancer, whatever, or just old age, I mean, I'm trying to get it all out there as best I can. And if it means you have to hit pause. and come back a day or two later, like, that seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

I'm not gonna go longer than I need to. and I'm trying to shorten them up. But again, that's kinda how I show up. It's like Tim Armstrong would say about writing songs. I asked him, do you write, how often do you write? Every day? Every day. Has Rick ever stopped creating? No. Has Joe ever stopped preparing for comedy? Are you ever stopping to think about world issues. and technology and who you can talk to? I mean, it seems to me you've always got a plan, the insight. The thing I love about your podcast the most,

to be honest these days, is the surprise. of like, I don't know who the hell's gonna be there. It's almost like, I get a little nervously excited. about when a new episode comes 'cause I have no idea. No idea. And you know, I mean, I have some guesses. based on what you told me during the break. I mean, you've got some people where it's just like, whoa! Lex has went there? Awesome. Can't wait, click. You know, I think that's really cool. Like, you're constantly surprising people.

So you're doing it so well. Like, it's such a high-level. And I think it's also important for people to understand. that what you're doing, Lex, there's no precedent for it. Sure, there have been interviews before, there have been podcasts before. There are discussions before, but it's not like, how many of your peers can you look to, to find out how best to do the content like yours? Zero. There's one peer, you. And so, you know, that should give you great peace. and great excitement.

because you're a pioneer. You're literally the tip of the spear. I don't wanna take an unnecessary tangent, but I think this might thread together two. of the things that we've been talking about, which are, I think of pretty key importance. One is romantic relationships, and the other is creative process and the work. And this again, is something I learned from Rick, but that he and I have gone back and forth on. And that I think is worth elaborating on, which is, earlier we were saying, you know, the best relationship is gonna be one. where it brings you peace. I think peace also can be translated to, among other things,

lack of distraction. So when you're with your partner, can you really focus on them and the relationship? Can you not be distracted by things. that you're upset about from their past. or from your past with them or their, and of course, the same is true for them, right? They ideally will feel that way towards you too, they can really focus. Also, when you're not with them,

can you focus on your work? Can you not be worried about whether or not they're okay? 'Cause you trust that they're an adult. and they can handle things or they will reach out. if they need things? They're gonna communicate their needs like an adult, you know, not creating message just to get attention. and things like that. Or disappearing, you know, for that matter. So peace and focus are intimately related, and distraction is the enemy of peace and focus.

So there's something there, I believe, because with people that have the strong generative drive. and want to, you know, be productive in their home life in the sense. have a rich family life or partner life, whatever that is. And in their work life, you know, the ability to really drop into the work. and like, okay, you might have that sense like, I hope they're okay or, you know, need to check my phone or something. But just know like, we're good. So peace and focus, I think being present are so key.

And it's key at every level of romantic relationship from, you know, certainly presence and focus, you know, everything from sex to listening to, you know, raising a family, to tending to the house and in work, it's absolutely critical. So I think that those things are kind of mirror images. of the same thing. And they're both important reflections of the other. And when you start to just, you know, when work. is not going well, then the focus on relationship can suffer.

and vice versa. - And it's crazy how important that is. How incredibly wonderful it could be to have. a person in your life that kind of enables. that creative focus. - Yeah, and you supply the peace and focus. for their endeavors, whatever those might be. I mean that symmetry there, because clearly, people have different needs. and the need to just really trust, you know, like when Lex is working,

he's in his generative mode and I know he's good. And so then they feel sure they've contributed to that, but then also what you're doing is supporting them. in whatever way it happens to be. And I think that sometimes you'll see that people. will pair up along creative, creative or musical, musical, or computer scientists. But I think, again, going back to this Conti episode. on relationships is that the superficial labels. are less important it seems than just the desire.

to create that kind of home life and relationship together. And as a consequence, the work mode. And for some people they're both people aren't working. And sometimes they are. But I think that's the good stuff, you know? And I think that's the big learning in all of it, is that the further along I go with each birthday, I guarantee you're gonna be like, what I want is simpler and simpler, and harder and harder to create, but oh, so worth it.

- The inner and the outer peace. It's been over two years, I think since Costello passed away. - [Andrew] It still tears me up. - You mentioned him still. - I cried about him today, I cried about him today. - Still? - It's proportional to the love. But yeah, I'll cry about it right now if I think about it. It wasn't putting him down, it wasn't the act of him dying any of that. Actually, that was a beautiful experience. I didn't expect it to be,

but it was in my place when I was living in Topanga. during the pandemic where we launched the podcast. and I did it at home. And he hated the vets, I did it at home. And it was, he gave out this huge (deep sigh). right at the end. And I could just tell he had been in just. not a lot pain, fortunately, but he had just been working so hard just to move at all. And the craziest thing happened, Lex is, was unbelievable. I've never had an experience like this. I expected my heart to break. And I've felt a broken heart before.

I felt it, frankly, when my parents split, I felt it when Harry shot himself. I felt it when Barbara died. and felt it, when, you know, when Ben went, so as well. And so many friends, like way too many friends. I mean, the end of 2017, my friend Aaron King, Johnny Farer, John Eckelberry, stomach cancer, suicide, fentanyl. It's like, whoa! All in a freaking week.

And I just remember thinking like, what the? But when Cost... And it's just heartbreaking, you just carry that. And it's like, (grunts). and that's just a short list, you know? And I don't say that for sob story, it's just for a guy that wasn't in the military. or didn't grow up in the inner city, like it's an unusual number of like deaths, like close people. When Costello went, the craziest thing happened. My heart warmed up, like heated up. And I wasn't on MDMA and just the moment he went,

it just went whoosh! And I was like, what the hell is this? And it was just like a supernatural experience to me. I just never had that. I put my grandfather on the ground, I was a pallbearer at the funeral. I've like done that more times than I'd. like to have ever done it. And it just heated up with Costello and I thought, what the fuck is this? And it was almost like, and we make up these stories. about what it is, but it was almost like he was like, all right, I have to be careful. 'cause I will cry here and I don't want to.

It was almost like, he was like, all that effort. 'cause I had been putting so much effort into him, it was like, alright, you get that back. It was like the giant freaking thank you. And it was incredible, you know? And I'm not embarrassed to shed a tear or two about it. if I have to, I was like, holy shit! Like that's how close I was to that animal. - Where do you think, where do you think you can find that kind of love again? - Man, I don't know. I mean, when, and excuse me for welling up,

but it was just, I mean, it's a freaking dog, right? I get it. But for me, it was the first real home I ever had. But when Costello went, it was like, we had had this home in Topanga. We had set it up and we're like, and he was just so happy there. And I think it just... I don't know, it was like this weird. like victory slash massive loss. Like we did it 11 years. Freaking did everything.

to make him as comfortable as possible. And he was super loyal, beautiful animal, but also just funny and fun. And I was like, I did it. Like, you know, I gave as much of myself to this being as a human. I felt I could without making it, you know, like, you know, detracting from the rest of my life. And so I don't know, when I think about Barbara especially, I well up and it's hard for me, but I mean, I talked to her before she died.

and that was a brutal conversation. Saying goodbye to someone, especially with kids. And that was hard. I think that really flipped a switch in me where I'm like, I always knew I wanted kids. I'd say I want kids, I want a lot of kids. That flipped a switch in me. I was like, I want kids. I want my own kids. - [Lex] You might be able to find that kind of love. - Yeah, I think because it was the caretaking, it wasn't about what he gave me all that time. And the more I could take care of him and see him happy,

the better I felt, it's crazy. And, I don't know. So I miss him every day, every day. I miss him every day. - You got a heart that's so full of love. I can't wait for you to have kids. - Thanks man. - For you to be a father. - Yeah, well, - I can't wait to say- - when I'm ready for it. When, you know, when God decides I'm ready, I'll have 'em. - And then I will still beat you to it.

As I told you many times before. - I think you should absolutely have kids. I mean, look at the people in our life. 'cause we're kind of the... In case you haven't realized it already, like we're the younger of the podcasters, but you know, like Joe and Peter, and Segura, and you know, and the rest, right? They're like the tribal elders, right? And we're, you know,

we're not the the youngest in the crew, but if you look at all those guys, they all have kids. They all adore their kids. and their kids bring tremendous meaning to their life. Like we'd be morons if, you know, if you didn't go off and start a family, I didn't start a family. And yeah, I think that's the goal. I mean, I think-. - The kids. - of the goals, that's one of them. - Kids not only make them their life more joyful.

and brings love to their life, it's also makes 'em more productive, makes 'em better people, all that. It's kind of obvious. - Yeah, I think that's what Costello wanted. I think I have this story in my head that he was just like, okay, like take this. Like you could, yeah. - And don't fuck this up. - And don't, (chuckles). Lord knows, don't fuck this up. - Andrew, I love you brother. This is incredible. - Love you too, thank you, I appreciate you. - As we will talk often on each other's podcast. for many years to come.

- Yes. - Many, many years to come. - Thank you, thanks for having me on here. And there are no words for how much I appreciate. your example and your friendship, so love you brother. - I love you too. Thanks for listening to this conversation. with Andrew Huberman. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now lemme leave you with some words from Albert Camu. "In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard.

the world pushes against me, within me, there's something stronger, something better, pushing right back.". Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.