Sheriff, Wife Accused in Bogus Scheme for Huge Payouts: Affidavit

You'd have to ask the sheriff and the. attorney on that. >> I'd love to, but he's got to show up, you know. An Indiana sheriff and his wife, who's a. candidate to replace him as Clinton. County's top cop, are both facing. serious fraud allegations. Right now, they stand accused of two. major schemes to allegedly enrich. themselves on the county's dime. And. those alleged schemes reportedly involve. funneling jail commissary funds into. their own pocket and allegedly faking a.

disability for more than a decade, apparently raking in hundreds of. thousands of dollars from the state. police pension fund. And I will tell you, according to. authorities, it is the social media. posts that may be this couple's. downfall. We are breaking down a. scathing 13-page affidavit that was. filed in Indiana court. Welcome to. Sidebar, presented by Law & Crime. I'm. Jesse Weber. Okay, real quick, before we go any. further, I have to tell you guys about.

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back a year. So, to start getting your. cash back, click the link in the. description or scan the QR code, but. make sure to use promo code sidebar. because you get an extra 25 cents bonus. on every gallon on your first tank of. gas. So, if you can check it out. Now, I just laid out a lot in that. intro, so let me just say, before I even. get into this, the allegations here, these are allegations, they're innocent. until proven guilty. A little bit later. on in the program, I am bringing on an. attorney who's going to make sense of. this and the strength of these. allegations, the strength of this case,

what we should be thinking about. But. here's the point. If you look at Rich. and Ashley Kelly's Facebook pages, they. seem to be living the dream. They appear. to be heavily involved in their. community, had jobs where they could. serve as law enforcement officers. The. couple reportedly have eight children, four of them still apparently living at. home. And right now Rich serves as. sheriff for Clinton County, Indiana. He's retired state trooper, ran. unopposed for sheriff with his tenure. starting in 2019. He was reelected in.

2022. And Rich's term is going to be. over at the end of 2026. But he. announced that he is running to be a. county commissioner while his wife. Ashley will run to take over for him as. sheriff. Fact, in her candidacy. announcement, which was posted on. Facebook, Ashley wrote, "Quote, my. husband and current sheriff will no. longer be a part of the sheriff's. office, but will serve as a vital. partner and resource moving forward as. he embarks a new and exciting venture. outside of law enforcement." So, you go. to the pair's Facebooks and they feature. everything from family updates to.

special event photos to announcements. about upcoming elections. They also both. have Facebooks dedicated to their. political campaigns. But but but but it is those very social. media pages that reportedly provided. investigators with alleged evidence to. slap both of them with felony charges. Again, they are innocent until proven. guilty, but I need to lay this out, okay? Turns out those charges are just the.

latest in ongoing investigations. involving Ashley and Rich. We're going. to get more into the exact claims. against them, but as of right now, according to court records, Ashley Kelly. faces two counts of fraud and one count. of theft and one count of official. misconduct by a public servant. Richard. Kelly faces two counts of aiding, inducing, or causing fraud, one count of. aiding, inducing, or causing theft, and. official misconduct by a public servant. So, according to media outlet WIB C, under Indiana law, and this is you might. not know this, apparently, a sheriff can.

continue to serve in that office, even. if they're under investigation, even if. they're under indictment. But, if. they're convicted, that's what triggers. an immediate removal from office. Now, the ongoing claims against Sheriff Kelly. have apparently caused some. exasperation with county commissioners. Why do I say that? Because on April 7th, Chief Deputy Shawn Mayfield was sent to. the commission meeting on the sheriff's. behalf, and this was a move that was. reportedly slammed by Commission.

President Jordan Brewer as, quote, "cowardice." Take a look. And so, we have sent we sent a letter a. few weeks ago. requesting information, and we've. basically been stonewalled in receiving. any of that. So, when when are we going to receive the. videos we requested? That'll be up to. the sheriff and the attorney. But, I guess that's why I'm confused, cuz isn't aren't those public record?

You'd have to ask the sheriff and the. attorney on that. >> love to, but he's got to show up. Hopefully, he'll be here next Hopefully, he'll be in here next time. So. I mean, when you go in hiding, it's it's hard to ask questions, and I. feel bad for you, cuz you get up here. and have to deal with it, but really, this is his responsibility, but he. chooses not to do anything. Hopefully, he'll be here at the next. one, and he can answer all your. questions. Well, I I have my doubts on that. So, I I just think, you know, you had a.

a merit board president. who expressed his frustration, and I. think. terminology used was he was pissed, and. I I think ultimately, that's where. everybody's just frustrated, because. one, this has been going on for, what, 2. months? I think it was the middle of February. when it first came out. We're. approaching the middle of April. There's There's no way that the request. that we made should take this long to. receive,

especially since they're not related to. the. kind of state police criminal. investigations. So, I guess I'm just What What's the hold. up? That's what I want to know. I think. everybody wants to know that. I just told you the hold up. We're just. waiting for this criminal offense. But I don't I don't think that's That's. the case. I don't I think that's. >> matter what what I get what everybody's. concerned about, okay? But until this. till this is gone, then we'll we'll. finish it up. So, and that's That's. going to be my answer for now. So,

Go ahead. Go ahead. Have you had communication with the. state police? >> I have not, no. And you're the. supposedly in charge of the. investigation on our side. >> the investigation. The detectives are. doing the work. So, So, Yeah. You know, I would assume you should be the go-to. guy, correct? When they start having questions. Yeah. >> But yet you've had no contact with them. whatsoever in 2 months' time. I have not. I have not. They've got the case now. When they get when they call us, we'll. we'll handle it from there. Just as a.

question, is there a reason. >> the question. Can you Why would Can you call them and. ask them? I mean, is that not. I probably could. So, but for right now, I'm going to let them I'm going to let. them finish the work, and then when we. get it all handled, >> But if they haven't started anything, they're not even started the work yet. Obviously, they've not even contacted. you. My question is why would you not. call them and see where we stand at this. point? Right now, that's where it's. going to We're just kicking the can.

I get I get what I get what you're. saying, but for right now, it's just. Thanks. >> going to be the way it is. So, you're. supervising, so you will let us know as. soon as you hear something. >> I'll I'll let you know, yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. I don't I don't have anything else. All right. Well, hopefully I'll have I'm. hoping to have more next time to to. And if the sheriff's not here, I'll. update you more and hopefully we'll have. more I'll have more information I do. now. We hate to put you under the gun. I get.

it. I get it. 48 hours later, both Kellys would be hit. with those fraud charges. A sergeant detective with nearly 30. years of experience with the Indiana. State Police filed an affidavit of. probable cause on April 9th. So, this is. a sworn statement saying there is. probable cause that a crime or crimes. were committed. And it gives us kind of. a look at specific allegations in this. case, okay? So, here is what's being. alleged about the timeline that. investigators were piecing together. according to that affidavit.

Ashley Kelly became a state trooper in. December of 2007. She was reportedly. injured on the job and has been on full. disability with the Indiana State Police. since October of 2015. Which we will dig. into more, those specific alleged injury. soon. Key factor. Back in 2018, when. Rich was elected sheriff the first time. around, he wanted to appoint Ashley to. two positions within the sheriff's. office. So, reportedly jail matron and. jail commissary manager. According to. the probable cause affidavit, quote,

"Employees of the Indiana State Police. are required to obtain approval from the. ISP Human Resources Division and ISP. Legal Division with final authorization. from the superintendent prior to. engaging in outside or non-departmental. employment, NDE. This requirement is governed by standard. operating procedure." Continues stating. the jobs of jail matron and jail. commissary are, quote, "Separate and. distinct roles which by law cannot be. performed simultaneously.

Each position would require its own NDE. approval." Again, non-departmental. employment. Although Ashley Kelly was on. disability status, she remained an. employee of the Indiana State Police and. therefore remained subject to NDE. requirements. Additionally, due to her. disability status, further stipulations. were required before any such employment. could be approved. On October 30th, 2018, Ashley Kelly's husband, Sheriff-elect Richard Kelly, emailed ISP. Human Resources outlining the proposed.

job conditions for Ashley Kelly as jail. matron. This is a statutory role that. requires appointment and oversight by. the Sheriff. Indiana code states that. the Sheriff shall set the qualifications. of the position and has complete hiring. authority over the position. Now, the. document apparently has a screenshot of. that email and according to the. investigator, quote, he specified that. the position would involve no uniform, no inmate contact, no duty belt, no. special duty or sworn authority, and. would consist primarily of.

administrative duties such as payroll, budgeting, and supervision of civilian. clerical staff. But, investigators apparently uncovered. a lot of evidence that they claim showed. Ashley frequently ventured outside of. that job description. And as I. mentioned, this is not the first time. that Richard Kelly have had their. actions questioned by ISP, by Indiana. State Police, because according to. reporting from Fox 59, a couple of. months before Richard was sworn in as. Sheriff, he and his wife apparently. created an LLC, a limited liability.

company called Leone LLC, and an. investigation by the Indiana State Board. of Accounts found that Ashley owned 51%. of the company, Richard owned the other. 49%, and the board reportedly discovered. that this LLC received more than. $200,000 in unauthorized payments from. the jail commissary. There was allegedly. no written agreement of any kind. authorizing those payments, and the. Kelly's ownership of the LLC was also. reportedly never disclosed to the. county. So, you can see, if these.

allegations are true, why it's a. problem. Now, at this point, per the. state patrol investigation, commissary. payments stopped being made to the LLC. and instead, allegedly, went directly to. Ashley. But, that would have required a. new NDE, but none was apparently ever. filed. As part of the investigation into. the commissary issues, Rich and Ashley. were reportedly charged with three. counts of misconduct, one count of. conflict of interest by a public. servant, according to reporting from. Indiana media outlet WISH-TV.

They entered not guilty pleas, continued. to work for the sheriff's office, and. WISH-TV reports that Rich called the. charges a quote political farce. With that trial still pending, in. September of last year, per Fox 59, a. judge had apparently issued a summary. judgment in a civil case brought against. the Kellys, meaning they lost. The. couple was ordered to pay just under. $330,000. back to the state. Around $100,000 of. that apparently comes from the cost of. an audit to uncover the alleged. commissary fraud. And despite the.

accusations against them and their legal. issues, the two have reportedly. continued to live their lives, posting. often on their personal social media. pages, and kept participating in local. elections. But, as they were investigating the. issues with Leon LLC, investigators. started uncovering allegations of a. different kind of fraud. So, there were. multiple claims that Ashley was faking. her disability and bilking the state out. of hundreds of thousands of dollars, and.

they allege her husband helped her do. it. So, according to a probable cause. statement, investigators interviewed. citizens and Clinton County government. officials. Quote, "Several of them. stated they believed Ashley Kelly was. making a false disability claim against. the Indiana State Police. Many of these. witnesses in the criminal matter told us. Ms. Kelly was faking the injury and. provided us with photos from her. Facebook page and other media showing. her performing activities that a person. with a disabling neck injury would. likely not be able to do. At the time, we were unable to locate witnesses. willing to testify against Kelly about.

their observations. But then in January. of this year, apparently two deputies. contacted ISP to report that Ashley is. not disabled, that she's committing. fraud. So, according to investigators, she reported an on-the-job injury in. 2014. She apparently slipped on ice. outside her patrol car, hurt her neck. and mouth. She returned to work a little. more than a week later, but she later. stated that her neck injury was keeping. her from doing her job, and that the. weight from a protective ballistics vest. was exacerbating her symptoms. And as.

part of her disability application, per. the affidavit, Ashley's chiropractor. reportedly submitted a report saying. that Ashley was dealing with {quote}. intermittent but unstable vertigo, that. she often experienced dizziness. He said. she cannot work or drive without. assistance, and he advised against her. returning to work. And she went on full. disability reportedly in October of. 2015, receiving payments from the state police. pension trust. That's the allegation. Between May 2021 and March 2026, Ashley. reportedly received payments totaling.

more than $200,000. Again, this is. according to the affidavit. Now, Ashley. had follow-up examinations over the. years, and while the doctors agreed that. she couldn't perform the duties of a. state trooper out in the field, she was. still employable. In fact, here's what. an independent medical examination. apparently found in 2021. During her. evaluation, Kelly stated the following. limitations. She does not drive due to. vertigo, nausea, and pressure sensations. she experiences behind her eyes. She. further stated that playing with her. kids, overuse, shopping, vacuuming, and. throwing a ball with her kids can. trigger her pain, as well as any other.

activities that involve her neck or. right shoulder. During her physical. evaluation, Kelly was found to have full. strength in her upper and lower. extremities with normal sensation in all. four extremities. She has full cervical. range of motion, but reports pain. She. has palpable cervical muscle spasms. It. was difficult to perform a full. examination and complains of extreme. pain with even light palpation to her. cervical spine. A review of Ashley's. medical records allegedly showed that. Ashley had gotten an injection that gave. her full relief for a few weeks, but for.

some reason she apparently chose not to. continue with that treatment. But then. you go to 2025, another independent. doctor did an exam. And he reported that. Ashley provided him with an MRI showing. some degeneration in her cervical spine, which is the part of the spine in your. neck. But according to this doctor, this. was likely just normal degeneration due. to aging, not from the slip and fall. However, based on what Ashley reported. about her pain, the doctor found she was. still disabled from her position as a. state trooper. And despite Ashley's.

disability being uh reportedly. classified as class five, so apparently. the most restrictive category for. disability claims, she was allegedly. seen in photo after photo on social. media doing things she'd previously said. or seemingly said were impossible for. her to do. For example, photos of Ashley. with a baby carrier on her back. According to the carrier specs, it. weighs 4.6 lb. Add to that the weight of. a baby or toddler, and she had a. significant weight on her back that.

would certainly be putting pressure on. her neck and shoulders, at least. according to investigators. And per. investigators, the ballistic vest that. was worn by state troopers, which Ashley. said she couldn't wear, it weighed. between 2.5 and 3.2 lb. Photos were also. apparently found showing Ashley carrying. her children in her arms, something she. had claimed for years she couldn't do. The affidavit states additional photos. depict Kelly engaging in physical. recreational activities, including. horseback riding, parasailing, walking. in parades with a toddler on her. shoulders, playing golf. So multiple.

deputies also reported that they'd. personally seen Ashley getting in and. out of cars without assistance and. driving long distances. She also. reportedly posted a picture to Facebook. of herself changing a large tire on the. side of the road when her family was on. a vacation. And there's the claims that. Ashley did more than just administrative. work for the Sheriff's Office and jail. Court documents state, "While under the. guise of her employment as the CCSO jail. matron, Ashley Kelly engaged in a number. of law enforcement activities. These. activities were observed by multiple. sworn law enforcement officers from.

CCSO. They provided consistent and. corroborating statements that Kelly. participated in surveillance and. criminal investigations, assisted in. undercover drug operations, handled and. counted evidentiary money, maintained. investigative records, and took. photographs, exercised supervisory. authority over deputies, and. participated in physically demanding. tasks including search-related. activities." Witnesses further observed. Kelly performing duties in a jail. setting, including interaction with. inmates without observable physical. limitation. According to an undercover. detective, Ashley Kelly directly.

supervised him, and in fact, he claims. Ashley oversaw five four of the five. undercover operations that he'd been a. part of at the Clinton County Sheriff's. Office. She even reportedly climbed a. tree to take pictures of a drug deal. From the affidavit, additionally, video. footage dated September 16, 2022, depicts Ashley Kelly vigorously working. out her upper body in the Clinton County. Sheriff's Department gym. In the. recording, she is observed performing an. exercise commonly referred to as a. Russian twist with a 14-lb medicine. ball, as well as bicep curls, tricep.

pull-downs, and bench press exercises. These activities are inconsistent with. the statement she made to examining. physicians in which she claimed she was. unable to perform such exercises due to. her reported line of duty injury. Now, the probable cause affidavit includes. screenshots of Ashley purportedly doing. those exercises in the department gym. The state police detective concluded the. following, "Even if Ashley Kelly's. original 2014 injury claim was. legitimate, the evidence overwhelmingly. shows that she continued to accept. disability benefits while knowingly. misrepresenting her physical condition.

The combination of first-hand law. enforcement testimony, video and. photographic evidence, documented. inconsistencies in her medical claims, and her active participation in. physically demanding and law. enforcement-related activities. establishes a clear pattern of. deception. At a minimum, this conduct. demonstrated that Ashley Kelly was. capable of performing duties well beyond. the limitations she represented yet. continued to collect disability payments. based on those misrepresentations. regardless of the legitimacy of the. initial injury. Continuing to receive. benefits under false pretenses is. sufficient to support criminal fraud. charges. And there warrants that were.

put out for their arrest and Rich and. Ashley were booked by the Marion County. Sheriff's Office last week. Court. records show they were released on a. $1,000 cash bond each and per reporting. from W I S H TV, the Clinton County. Commissioners released the statement. calling for both Kelly's to resign. immediately. Quote, "For years these. issues have required significant time, attention, and taxpayer resources to. address. These new charges make it clear. that public trust has been broken. For. the good of the Sheriff's Office and the. people of Clinton County, Sheriff Kelly. and Matron Kelly should resign.

immediately." And so far the Kelly's. have not publicly responded to these. allegations. They've been scheduled for. trial in May of this year for the. earlier fraud charges. Not clear if that. date is going to change now, but I want. to talk about it. Okay, I want to bring. on a former criminal prosecutor Dan. Shore. Has a novel out about misconduct. allegations. It's called Open Bar. I. encourage everybody to check it out. Dan, thank you so much for taking the. time. I mean, you you specialized in. this. You've handled fraud. investigations in the past. When you're. thinking about these two different sets.

of allegations, right? What are your. initial thoughts about this? The. strength of the case from what you've. seen and also is there potential wiggle. room? Are these straightforward cases or. can they get complicated? One thing is that disability fraud is. very common. A lot of people put in. complaints when there's an injury and. then they're getting benefits from their. job or from their employer and it's. there's been a lot of cases where then. people are found to be engaging in. really vigorous athletic exercises or.

you know, in this case we have her. changing a tire and parasailing and. things like that. So, this these this is. not an uncommon allegation. I think the. extent of it, how long it was going on. for, makes it more unique and egregious, but it's interesting cuz back in the day. when I started my career as a prosecutor. over 25 years ago, we have investigators. follow people and try to detect fraud. like this. And now, in this case and. others, people just post it on social. media. They post pictures of themselves. engaged in vigorous activity or changing. attire or things like that. So, so many.

people are caught now just through their. own disclosures online. Is there wiggle. room you could say, "Listen, you know, I. I I can't do the certain job activities. I'm assigned to do. Okay, I'm carrying. my kids. I have no choice. I have to. carry my kids. Working out, I have to do. rehabilitation. I have to work out. I. have to build my my body up." Um are. those where it gets kind of tricky? With. this the woman said that she could not. do was inconsistent with what she was. seen doing. I mean, she really said she. couldn't drive and yet she was seen and.

reported to have driven 100 miles on one. trip and change a tire. So, it's not. just about, "Yes, I can't perform my. job, but I can do other things." But the. things that she supposedly was doing. directly contradict what she had said. she couldn't do. Now, maybe the wiggle. room is saying, "Well, my situation. improved over the years." cuz we're. talking about about a decade in time. from the time it was reported to the. time she was alleged to have been in. engaging in this misconduct. So, you can. say, "Okay, I got better. I was able to. do more things." But there's no doubt. that the.

according to the complaint, what she. specifically said she was incapable of. doing and why she needed disability, that she was then engaging in activity. over the course of years that was. inconsistent with that. The. uh charges related to the commissary. payments, you talk about paying through. the LLC or made alleged payments made. directly to Ashley, are those the ones. where there's a paper trail and are. easier to prove? Yeah, because the lack. of disclosure of being an owner and. having a financial benefit from what. would be be conflict of interest if that.

was true. There are different policies, procedures, potentially laws that be. violated there. I mean, one is just not. disclosing a potential conflict of. interest. And then also, potentially. gaining a financial benefit from your. own work working for a government. entity. Those are serious violations. And again, I've seen those in fraud. investigations I've done where people. have LLCs. They don't They try to be. opaque about who the owners are when. they're receiving benefits from it. But. certainly, if through their government.

their work, they're steering money. towards an LLC that she has some kind of. financial interest in without disclosing. that, that's a serious violation. So, you know, What what could be a potential. explanation or defense for that though? And look, they're innocent until proven. guilty. They have a right to a defense. What could be an innocent explanation or. benign explanation for any of this? Well, I guess you could say that you. didn't realize you needed to disclose. that, that you were open about what the. name of the LLC was. And maybe you could. say, "Usually LLCs do have public. records that if you look into them, it.

shows who the owners are." So, someone. could say, "Well, I said what LLC what. it was and it was openly public with the. with the owner was." Maybe they didn't. disclose it themselves. I guess you. could say that. But certainly, the. correct thing to do if you were getting. a financial benefit in this way is to. disclose, "I'm the owner of this company. that's getting this money through the. commissary." And they didn't do that. here. And I also think if there is. disability fraud over the course of. years, that undermines the credibility. of someone saying that this other.

potential fraud was innocent because. there's a potentially a pattern and. practice over years of deceptive. activity. And that undermines the. credibility of a person. Um, so when we look at the court. records, it appears it appears that Rich. and Ashley Kelly are being charged as. co-defendants. If that's true, um, your. thoughts on that because if they're. married, how does that impact the case? You think about terms like spousal. privilege, um if that plays a role in this in any.

which way, if one decides to testify. Um. but also I'm wondering. you know, co-defendants on this. Ray, well, it look if they both knew. about this and they knew about this. ongoing fraud and they were both working. with the government, then certainly that. they should be co-defendants if those. allegations are true. In terms of. spousal privilege, the biggest spousal. privilege is that your discussions with. your spouse, someone can't be forced to. talk about them in court. So, you. couldn't subpoena one of them and say,

"Tell us what your spouse told you." But. the thing is they're criminal defendants. anyway, so they would have the right to. remain silent. So, I don't think that. spousal privilege is that significant. here, but certainly if there was a civil. matter attached to this, they couldn't. be compelled to talk about what their. spouse told them. But sometimes it's, you know, it depends on the state of. their marriage. Sometimes I I've seen. cases where a deal is made with one. spouse. and they testify against the other. spouse. Obviously, the marriage is. probably breaking up that point, but. that's something that has happened in. cases I've seen. And my understanding is.

they still haven't gotten to trial on. even the initial charges and now you. have this new allegation with respect to. the dis- the alleged disability fraud. How does this all factor in together, all these uh different allegations? Well, I think they they each strengthen. the other parts of the case because. often in a fraud case like this, you. want to show a pattern, a pattern of. deception, a pattern of dishonesty. And. if you can show, again. with one part of it, the disability. part, that someone was being deceptive.

and dishonest and stealing money from. their disability payments, that goes to. show that maybe the person's not. credible regarding their explanation for. other parts of it, such as the. commissary payments and their LLC. So, I. think the more that you get in front of. the same judge or the same jury and they. hear multiple allegations of deception, they're less likely to be trusted and. you started the interview asking about. what's an innocent explanation. It's. harder to make an innocent explanation. when there's more than one type of. misconduct because okay, maybe this was.

innocent, but is this also innocent? And. you know, it's hard to say that so many. things were can be innocently explained, but they are innocent till proven. guilty. So maybe they'll be able to do. that. I mentioned before that at the time of. this recording it doesn't appear that. they have resigned. Is that unusual? I don't think it's unusual because that. is often part of the negotiation in a. plea bargain that if you do get a plea. bargain, one of the agreements is that. you're going to resign from your job. So. that's something that that's a.

bargaining chip for them. So I think to. resign before a plea bargain would be a. huge mistake because that's often. something that you can offer. Okay, I'll. take this reduced sentence and I will. resign and that's something they want. If you resign then the government's. gaining that without needing to. negotiate. When you heard the. alleged facts laid out by authorities in. this case, in your career, where does. this range? I mean what what kind of. does this you say this is an outlier. from something I've seen before or this.

is consistent with what I've seen. before? And again, these are. allegations, but it's just it's I I do. wonder. I always think for a jury like. is it going to be hard sometimes to. accept, you know, what what's being laid. out here? You imagine people in a. position of trust to allegedly do this. Where does the these allegations rank. for you in terms of what you've seen? Well, as a fraud investigator for many, many years, none of this shocks me. I. think that a an average juror who isn't. hasn't been exposed to all that might be. more shocked. I'm I am. I'm appalled by this type of activity.

that's true, but I've just seen so much. of it in my career where people are. making disability claims and then. getting benefits while they're able to. do a lot of other physical activity that. they're steering money through an LLC. that is little bit potentially opaque. about who owns it and they're getting. financial benefits. That's the type of. things that happen a lot in government, and that's why you need Inspector. General's offices and things like that. to investigate and have oversight. And. cases like this are important not just.

to bring potentially these people to. justice, but also as a deterrent to. other people that other people who are. potentially or filing disability. complaints when it's not merited may. say, "Maybe I shouldn't do that. I just. saw this case in the news. I saw it on. my own crime where they were talking. about someone getting caught, so maybe I. should be more careful." If that I think. it does serve as a deterrent. All right. A lot of things to be. thinking about with this one. Dan Shore, always happy to see you. Thanks for. taking the time. Jesse, thanks for. having me on. Great to talk to you. And. that's all we have for you right now. here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so.

much for joining us, and as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple. Podcast, Spotify, wherever you should. get your podcast. You can also check us. out on NBC's Peacock as well. If you. want to follow me, X, Instagram, my. NewsNation show Jesse Weber LIVE Monday. through Friday 11:00 p.m. Eastern. I'll. see you next time, everybody.