OJ Simpson’s Lawyer Reacts to YouTube Mom Ruby Franke's Child Abuse Case

I I don't like feeling pain I do not go. around looking for ways to bring pain. into my life and if I stay in the. reality there are going to be inherent. discomforts Ruby Frankie the YouTuber. accused of abusing her children along. with her business partner remains in. jail how might she defend herself one of. O.J Simpson's former lawyers is here to. explain. welcome to law and crime's sidebar. podcast I'm Anjanette Levy Ruby Frankie.

faces six felony counts of child abuse. involving her children her business. partner and friend therapist Jody. Hildebrandt faces the same charges both. are being held without bail at this. point and we've learned Hildebrandt has. surrendered her license with the state. pending the outcome of this case a. spokesperson for the state of Utah said. Hildebrandt surrendered her license. through her lawyer the alleged abuse. came to light last month after one of. Frankie's children climbed out of a.

window at hildebrandt's home in Utah and. went to a neighbor for help the boy had. duct tape on his ankles and wrists and. appeared malnourished Frankie's five. minor children are now in protective. custody their father Kevin is trying to. get custody of the children his lawyer. told law and crime that he and Ruby were. separated for 14 months and that he was. not aware of the abuse neighbors have. told a number of news outlets that they. reached out to Children's Services with. concerns about the Frankie kids many.

times over the years a spokesperson for. the Division of Child and Family. Services tells law and crime the agency. affirms recent law enforcement reports. of our involvement in the Frankie case. but the agency said to protect its. relationships with those it serves and. out of respect for Children and Families. DCFS will not offer specific information. about the case either past or present. questions have also been raised about. whether Utah's free-range parenting laws.

prevented DCFS from taking action sooner. a DCFS spokesperson said every referral. to the agency goes through a screening. process and each complaint is handled. individually a CPS investigation for. non-supervision is open the agency says. when the information reported includes a. specific occurrence or allegation that a. child is subjected to an unreasonable. risk of accidental harm due to a failure. to supervise a child's activities the.

DCFS spokesperson says free-range. parenting laws do not absolve parents. from supervising their children but. allow them to teach children. Independence and resilience. what if your partner developed 21 new. identities or you discovered that your. friend who helped you through your. darkest times was actually a conniving. con artist or what if you began seeing. demons everywhere inhabiting people. including your son what would you do. from wondering this is actually.

happening is a podcast that brings you. extraordinary true stories of. life-changing events told by the people. who live them in their newest season. you'll hear even more intimate. first-person accounts of how regular. people have overcome remarkable. circumstances from the man who went to. jail for 17 years for accidentally. shooting the person who tried to save. his life to one of the close friends of. Infamous scam artist Amanda Riley these. haunting accounts sound like Hollywood. movies but I assure you this is actually.

happening follow this is actually. happening on the wondery app or wherever. you get your podcast and you can listen. to this is actually happening ad-free on. wondry Plus. joining me to discuss how Ruby Frankie. could maybe best defend herself in court. is somebody who's spent a lot of time in. courtrooms over the years he is. Professor Alan dershowitz he is also the. author of the new book get Trump the. threat to our civil liberties due.

process and our constitutional rule of. law professor dershowitz welcome back to. sidebar thanks for coming on thanks it's. a pleasure to be on with you yeah we. just we always love having you and. getting your Insight your thoughts on. this case about Ruby Frankie this is. somebody who was on YouTube for years. posting videos of her children now she's. charged with felony child abuse along. with her business partner Jody. Hildebrand who is a therapist it's a.

very hard defense to make I mean he's. the argument has to be that how parents. deal with their children particularly. under the local law uh is a matter of. degree and that there's a tremendous. amount of discretion Vision given to. parents as to what the best method of. raising their children is and we don't. want the state to go too deeply into. family Affairs and intrude on the other. hand obviously there are the rights of.

children who can't really defend. themselves and can't articulate some. claims that they have and criminal law. should never be a matter of degree it. should always be an on off switch it. should always be a clear line I think it. was Thomas Jefferson who once said that. for a criminal law to be valid it has to. be so clear that a reasonable person. should be able to understand that if he. reads it while running imagine the image. he's running he's reading the law and he.

has to be able to understand it and so. the expose factor law of the. Constitution and due process all require. clear clear warning clear notification. Whenever there are ambiguities under the. principle of lenity the ambiguities have. to be resolved in favor of the defendant. but that's always going to be a matter. of degree and if you have a case where. there is clear obvious knowing abuse. that defense is less likely to work we.

have allegations here that a child and. maybe even two children were duct taped. at the ankles and wrists. food and water were withheld as some. form of I don't know if you would call. it punishment I don't know if you find. this to be some way of. teaching people therapeutically I I. can't even imagine any therapist saying. yes withhold food and water from a child. in order to counsel them these are her. children who were found in her business.

partner's home the police apparently say. they have videos of Ruby Frankie in the. home while this was going on so so I. don't I don't understand how anybody. could say that duct taping children at. the the wrists and ankles is anything. but abusive and along with withholding. food and water. who could have imagined back when I was. a kid I just turned 85 so we're talking. about almost a century ago parents would.

wash out their children's mouths with. soap if they said a dirty word. um they would beat them up smack them I. got smacked by my Rabbi in Hebrew school. for questioning the the Torah. those today are utterly unacceptable I'm. not suggesting that what is alleged here. even fits on any Continuum all I'm. suggesting is to the modern Eye and Ear. things that are clearly abusive uh would. not have seemed abusive back then which.

is why you need absolute Clarity also. there are different cultural norms for. how you treat children different uh. religious groups different uh uh ethnic. groups different. ideological groups treat their children. somewhat uh differently so there is a. need for the future at least there is a. need for Clear guidance some and. statutes that say you know you can't.

restrain your children or deny them food. on the other hand you can deny them. dessert everybody would acknowledge that. you can induct and deny them a double. portion uh and so what the criminal law. doesn't like is matters of degree and. yet when it comes to issues like this. they're always going to be matters of. degree and matters of different. attitudes by different groups of people. there is a religious aspect to this. these are both Mormon women Jody.

Hildebrandt and Ruby Frankie and we are. in no way saying that you know the. Mormon church is saying you should be. duct taping your children that's not the. point here however we do have somebody. Ruby Frankie who who seems to. claim that she is a devout Mormon who is. concerned about things going on in the. lives of her children that that could be. viewed as sinful and possibly she she. goes to Jody Hildebrandt for help.

because she's a licensed counselor and. the counselor says well this is what we. need to do this is what needs to be done. to to cure these ills whatever they may. be we still don't know what the alleged. transgressions were so so. is it possible her lawyer says she was. under the spell of this woman who. claimed to be a therapist and was trying. to do what was best for her children. because she believed something was going. on with them that was harmful.

look this is a variation of advice of. council defense what she's claiming is. advice of therapist defense or advice of. religious leaders defense let's not. forget how old the notion of a spare the. rod and spoil the child or under the law. of the Bible if a child is reaches a. certain level of Disobedience the child. could be stoned that's in the Bible. um nobody accepts that today but you.

know it'd be interesting to see how a. jury in this part of the country. reacts to the claim of advice of. counselor advice of religious leaders. advice of friends. um it's very likely the jury will find. that notwithstanding any of those. defenses. this went too far. um but remember the state has to prove. that Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and all.

they need is one juror to have a. reasonable doubt and you have a hung. jury. we've seen some reporting in the Salt. Lake City Tribune that. there were neighbors who said they. contacted Children's Services about this. they were very concerned about potential. harm that the children were enduring at. the hands of Ruby Frankie and and these. neighbors told the reporter at the. Tribune that they felt like their. complaints were ignored or fell on death.

ears and they've got this free-range. parenting law out there in Utah where. parents have you know wide discretion I. mean you're supposed to be able to. parent your children right I mean you. should have broad discretion in how you. want your children to be reared duct. taping really goes a little far with. that but but you know it's not a little. far it goes way too far uh but you know. they they felt that their children were. not the victims of neglect when they.

investigated these claims we have these. statements here from the Division of. Child and Family Services in which they. say they they took these complaints they. evaluated them things of that nature so. so do does law like this free-range. parenting law. not Empower a Children's Services Agency. to to take more action. well it does and it requires the. Striking of an appropriate balance I'll. never forget the time I was a law clerk. in Washington I would take the bus uh to.

work every day and I heard two people. speaking uh overheard them speaking they. were both Child Care people and one of. them said what do you do when the kid. yells and and one says well I smack them. uh and the other one said now is a. better way of doing it I put his head in. the oven for a couple of seconds and. that makes sure that he stops crying I. immediately call Child Services when I. heard about that. um and they did nothing and I don't know. what happened I don't know what the. result was.

um there are terrible things out there. look think about people in history who. have killed their children to to protect. them from worse things happening than. probably the most famous person in. modern history was Joseph garables the. uh head of the Nazi information group. when he saw that the war was over he and. his wife poisoned their six children to. spare them a world without Hitler now. nobody nobody would justify anything.

like that but the range of human. attitudes toward children ranges from. the horrors of Joseph gerbils to a. parent who might lose temper for a. second and take out the strap and and. hit their child today that would be. regarded as as abusive so what we need. are clear laws with clear lines. prohibiting certain kinds of conduct but. even that won't solve all the problems. because there are so many ways of. abusing children that are are not.

capable of being defined the interesting. thing about this case of course is the. history in the background of the accused. and uh and and the degree of uh uh of of. of alleged abuse and the evidence which. is what makes this case so fascinating. for so many Americans to watch and to. see how a jury will assess the competing. claims of the state to protect the. children versus the right of the.

free-range parenting to do what they. think in is best you know none of us. really knows what's best for our for our. children I mean those of us who have. been lucky enough to raise kids who have. who have not been subject to these kinds. of problems have to feel great. compassion for parents who've tried. their best and their kids turn out to be. drug addicts or whatever and. um I it's it's it's awfully hard to to. find the precise line where the state.

should have the power to intrude into. what is the most intimate of family. relationships the the parent child uh. relationship it's it's such a complex. issue I do want to read uh you know part. of the comment here from the Children's. Services Agency they said free range. parenting laws do not absolve parents. from supervising their children but are. intended to allow parents to teach their. children Independence and resilience how. they see fit based on the child's age. and maturity.

very much. yeah I don't know what it means. essentially it means you have to strike. the appropriate balance and put the. Children's Welfare first we all agree. with that but it doesn't give us the. kind of lines that we need to separate. bad parenting from Criminal parenting. the bottom line Professor dershowitz how. does Ruby Frankie. justify this in a court of law or defend. herself I mean it seems if there is. video evidence supporting that she was.

there and she was aware of the treatment. that her her children were receiving. then she's in deep trouble. well there are two ways of Defending in. a case like this one is to dispute the. facts and if you dispute the facts and. you turn out to be wrong the jury will. will not like you because the jury can. see the facts with their own eyes the. other is to take a different tact and. say look I did these things I did it in. the best interest of the children.

um maybe people disagree with me maybe I. was wrong but they're my children I had. the right to make a decision to bring. them up in the way I thought was best. for them you know. they're both uphill defenses uh but a. good lawyer has to decide essentially. between those defenses now the lawyer. could do both could say look I disagree. she that she didn't really do this that. or the other thing but even if she did. she did it in the best interest of the.

child. um look look at the intent don't look at. the result look at what was in the mind. of the of the parent and and see and ask. yourself uh can you really sit in. Judgment of her uh from so far away and. um with such different attitudes you. know that's probably the best you can do. that doesn't mean you're going to. succeed look as we know over 90 percent. of Trials criminal trials result in. convictions so you start out with a.

strong uh presumption uh that there will. be a conviction in any case and. particularly a case as high profile and. as disturbing as they this one so the. other possibility of course is some kind. of a plea bargain and uh that that. really is something we're not in a. position to assess well Professor Alan. dershowitz thanks as always for coming. on to talk with us it's always a great. conversation we appreciate it and again. the the new book by Professor dershowitz.

is get Trump the threat to civil. liberties due process and our. constitutional rule of law again thank. you so much thank you so much that's it. for this edition of Law and crime. sidebar podcast you can listen to and. download sidebar on Apple's Spotify. Google and wherever else you get your. podcast and of course you can always. watch it on Law and crimes YouTube. channel just remember to hit the. Subscribe button and don't forget Jesse. Weber and I will be in Orlando at. crimecon this Friday stop by and see us.

at the law and crime table we will also. be doing a live taping of sidebar about. the Gilgo Beach serial killer case so. don't miss that 9 A.M on Friday morning. at crimecon I'm Anjanette Levy and we. will see you next time. thank you.