Nick Reiner Not Guilty of Murders?

Nick Reiner is not guilty of murder. Print that. Print that. After withdrawing from. representing accused killer Nick Reiner, those were the parting words of his now. former attorney Alan Jackson. But what. did he not say? He didn't say Riner. didn't kill his father, Rob Reiner, and. mother Michelle Singer. No, he said he's. not guilty. [music]. And that is very telling. That is very. specific. That seems to be a very big.

clue as to what potential defense will. be raised. Maybe how this case [music]. may proceed and whether in fact Nick. Reiner is not guilty of murdering his. parents, especially since it's now being. reported he may think he's a victim. [music] of a conspiracy. Let's talk. about it. Welcome to Sidebar, presented. by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. >> Hi, on behalf of Jackson and Quinn and. with Mr. provider's understanding and. consent. We're asked to withdraw as.

council preferred based on the. conversation that we've had in chambers. uh and the explanation he's provided to. the court in chambers. We feel that we. have no choice at this juncture but to. withdraw his council and has to be. relieved. >> Just a wild legal week in the Nick. Reiner story. And I paid very very. careful attention to the words that were. used by his now former attorney Alan. Jackson who withdrew from the case. And. I'll play the whole thing for you. because it raises a lot of questions. about what we can actually expect now.

for Nick Reiner. I mean, he's being. represented by a public defender, not. Alan Jackson. What does that mean? But. this is the most important part in my. view. This is the most important part. Is it possible that we just got a major. clue, a major confirmation as to his. defense and whether he will in fact be. found not guilty of murder. And we have. just learned, by the way, that Reiner. may in fact believe that he's the victim. of a conspiracy. Yeah. So, lot to. process here. Now, what are we talking. about? 32-year-old Nick Reiner. Of.

course, he has been charged with two. counts of first-degree murder in. connection with the apparent stabbing. deaths of his parents, renowned director. Rob Reiner and photographer and producer. Michelle Singer. Reiner. They were found. dead in their Brentwood, LA home back on. December 14th. It is a brutal, brutal. crime. And Nick Reiner faces these. murder charges with special. circumstances. So, namely multiple. murders, special allegations, right? There's a special allegation, too, that. he allegedly personally used a dangerous. and deadly weapon, a knife. And.

remember, when you're adding this, that. could carry the death penalty if. convicted or at least life in prison. without parole. So, the stakes are. incredibly high here. After his initial. arraignment was delayed, it was. rescheduled for January 7th, this week. But instead of a standard arraignment, right, where a defendant is told what. they're charged with, what their. constitutional rights are, where they. maybe enter a plea, the arraignment had. to be delayed again. And this time, his. attorney, well, now former attorney, acclaimed criminal defense attorney, Allan Jackson, withdrew from.

representing him. That was a bombshell. announcement. So Nick Riner is now. assigned a public defender, Kimberly. Green. And we're going to talk more. about what this means for him. We'll. talk about why he maybe did this, why. Alan Jackson did this. But I go back to. my central point here. I go back to what. Allan Jackson said outside of court. after that announcement. And I want you. to listen very, very carefully to what. he says. Remember, he's a lawyer. So the. specific words that he used are. deliberate. This, in my view, gives us a.

sense of what the actual legal defense. may be and creates a conversation of. whether in fact Reiner will be found not. guilty of murder. Take a listen. This. morning, uh, I had to withdraw as Nick. Reiner's counsel. Circumstances beyond our control, but. more importantly, circumstances beyond. Nick's control. have dictated that sadly, it's made it. impossible for us to continue our. representation of Nick.

I'm legally and I'm ethically prohibited. from explaining all the reasons why. I. know that's a question on everybody's. mind. We expect the public defender to step. in. They've already been appointed and. very capably. protect. Nick Riner's interests as he moves. through forward through the system. But. be clear, be very, very clear about. this. My team and I remain deeply, deeply committed.

to Nick Reiner and to his best. interests. In fact, we know, we're not just convinced, we know that. the legal process will reveal the true. facts of the circumstances surrounding. this case, Nick's case. You know, a lot's been printed of late. over the last three weeks. A lot has. been printed. printed about Nick,

printed about his family, printed about. the circumstances, speculation is in. print. On December 15th, in the early morning. hours, I was in New York at the time and. I got a call. Me and my team, we dropped everything. And for the last three weeks, we have. devoted literally every waking hour. to protecting Nick and his interests. We've investigated this matter top to.

bottom, back to front. What we've learned. and you can take this to the bank. is that pursuant to the laws of this. state, pursuant to the law in. California, Nick Reiner is not guilty of. murder.

Print that. Print that. We wish him the very, very best moving. forward. And that's all I have today. >> Nick Reiner is not guilty. Not that he. didn't do it. Not that he didn't kill. Robin Michelle. Not that he's innocent, right? Not that someone else did it. So, that leaves some alternative. possibilities on defenses and whether. Nick Reiner will be found not guilty by. a jury. And that is what I want to get. into as well as why Jackson withdrew,

what we can expect from the public. defender, what we can expect at the next. scheduled arraignment for February 23rd. And to get into all this, I want to. bring on Seth Zuckerman, criminal. defense attorney. Seth, thank you so. much for taking the time. Really, really. appreciate it. A lot of layers here. First, okay, let's talk about the. withdrawing of representation. When you. hear Jackson basically say that he had. no choice but to withdraw, what do you. think happened? Well, first, thanks for. having me on. It's a pleasure to be here. today. I I think two things. One, uh,

that there's an issue with legal fees. Um, and that whoever agreed to pay for. Nick Reiner's initial appearance in the. aftermath of his parents' death is no. longer willing to fund the defense. Or. that there's some type of conflict that. arose for Alan Jackson in which some of. the witnesses are either former clients. or people that he's unable to. cross-examine. You know, one of the. things that he said during his statement. outside the courthouse, which you are. are attuned to and and hit right on the. head, and we'll unpack those other.

issues in a moment, is that they've done. a thorough investigation here, and only. after the investigation did these issues. arise. So, to me, it's either a legal. fee issue and there's no one who's. willing to pay for Jackson's hefty legal. fees in this case, or that there's an. actual conflict of interest and he has. an ethical obligation not to proceed. because of this conflict. And the crazy. thing is we're never going to know the. actual reason, right? He's got an. ethical obligation to not say anything. further. Nick Reiner is now a former.

client of his. Even what he said on the. courthouse steps was probably a lot, but. I understand why he did it. Um, and now. we're not going to know the reason he. withdrew, but we know that he's now got. a public defender. >> Well, there's a couple of points to that. because in a little bit later, I'm going. to talk to you about um potential. witnesses in this case because there's. something that happened in the courtroom. where we may have got an indication of. that. And if this case progresses and. certain people testify, I'm sure, you. know, you know, Slooh's out there, maybe. even us, we can look to see if they. these potential witnesses were ever. represented in some capacity by Alan.

Jackson or his firm. So that's potential. conflict of interest. I do want to get. into the idea of the fees and whether or. not Jackson could be paid. There has. been talk about is it possible that Nick. Reiner was uncooperative, that he's a. difficult client. I don't get that sense. because why say these were circumstances. beyond his control unless you're really. saying, "Look, he's mentally unwell. There's not much we can work with here.". But then that would be a competency. issue, right? I I don't even think that. this would be like this has to be. transferred to a different attorney. I. can't handle it. So, your thoughts on.

people who say, "Well, maybe it's Nick. Riner's being uncooperative in some. fashion." I I don't see that. >> I I don't see that here either. Um. Jackson's statement was very specific, as you said, right? is that. circumstances outside of Nick Reiner's. control led to this. So, you know, there's not a conflict of strategy. There's not an inability to communicate. with one another. So, I've ruled out the. fact that Jackson withdrew because of. some kind of disagreement he had with. Nick. That's clearly not based on his. statement. In fact, if that was the. reason, probably Jackson should not have.

given any press conference outside the. courthouse at that time. So, I've I've. ruled that possibility out here. >> Okay. So, now let me lay into my. thought. This is my thought. My first. thought was you're right. could be a. conflict of interest, but my first. thought was there's an issue of payment. Maybe can't pay Alan Jackson's fees, but. maybe it's something more. So, and. remember, he allegedly kills his. parents, so he's not getting an. inheritance. But it always became a. question of how can you afford a. high-powered attorney like Alan Jackson. But this is the big point. This goes to. my other major theory. Maybe he can't.

afford the experts that he needs to. testify in his trial. So, this goes to. my point. When Allan Jackson says that. Nick Reiner is not guilty, right, not. that he didn't do it, not that he's. innocent, not that somebody else did it, not guilty, my thought is he's talking. about the insanity defense. And remember. what Jackson said initially when he got. the case a few weeks ago, right? He. initially gets the case before any. investigation told the media that there. were quote very complex and serious. issues associated with this case that.

needed some time to be examined. I. thought you're talking about mental. health issues. Under California law, someone who commits the killing can. still be found not guilty by reason of. insanity if it can be proven by the. defense that it is more likely than not. that the defendant was legally insane. when they committed the crime. So when. they committed the crime, this person. had a mental disease or defect and. because of that disease or defect was. incapable of knowing or understanding. the nature and quality of the act or was.

incapable of knowing or understanding. the act was morally or legally wrong. And let me just add one more thing. I. know I'm throwing a lot at you, but let. me just add one more thing. Just came. out from TMZ. They are reporting that. their sources tell them Nick Reiner may. in fact know that he killed his parents, but that he's delusional, that he. believes that this was some sort of. conspiracy that has been orchestrated. against him to have him arrested. So, a. lot of points here, Seth. First, let's. start out. Do you think I'm totally off.

base when Alan Jackson specifically says. that Nick Reiner is not guilty that he's. talking about mental health defense. insanity? I think that that you are not totally. off base. It's actually not the first. thing that came to my mind. Um, but I. think it's one of the real two. possibilities here. And here's what we. have, right? We've got this mental. health defense or even substance abuse. defense because we know that he. struggled with substance abuse issues. where the defense will look into arguing. that he had the diminished capacity and. couldn't form the intent necessary for.

murder charges. So, that's the first. possibility and that's what you have. discussed. But what actually came to my. mind when Alan Jackson said that Nick is. not guilty of murder and he was very. specific of murder is that there's a. possible heap of passion defense which. would lead to a manslaughter charge and. not a murder charge. What a heat of. passion defense is is that Nick. experienced an uncontrollable rage as a. result of some type of argument he had. with his parents. He didn't have time to. cool off. This wasn't a premeditated. murder in which he went over to his.

parents' house with the intent of. killing them and thus arguing that he. should only be charged with. manslaughter, which carries a much less. severe sentence in California than a. murder charge. So, when I heard what uh. Nick, sorry, Alan Jackson say he's not. guilty of murder, I I actually thought. of the heat of passion defense and. thought he's saying that this should be. a manslaughter case and not a. first-degree murder case. That is. something that we've talked about in a. previous episode too about like we don't. know the circumstances of what allegedly. happened in that house, what happened in. that bedroom. Uh whether there was a a.

fight of some kind or whether there was. defensive injuries or whether or not um. you know, you're right, maybe the heat. of passion. If you're talking about. downgrading the case from first-degree. murder to let's say seconddegree murder. or let's say uh manslaughter, um what. potentially could he be looking at then? If we're talking about now life in. prison on the table or the death. penalty, which seems unlikely, but what. would you be looking at potentially for. like let's say manslaughter? >> I mean, a manslaughter charge doesn't. carry life. It doesn't include the death.

penalty. Um, it would involve a sentence. depending on the circumstances of. somewhere in the 10 to 15 year range. potentially, which is much less than. what he's facing on the murder charges. So, which is why any experienced. criminal defense attorney would look, you know, this isn't a case of who done. it, right? as you discussed earlier, you. know, we know that there was something. that happened in his home and that he. specifically said he's not guilty of. murder, not someone else did this, he. didn't kill his parents, he's completely. innocent, but that there's some. circumstances here which shows that he's. not guilty of murder. And it's really. those two options, right? There's either.

the insanity defense that he couldn't. form the intent based on his mental. health and or substance abuse history, or this was a heat of passion case and. it should be a manslaughter case. And. I'll explore that a little bit more, but. but whether it's some sort of heat of. passion or whether it is a mental health. defense, you the defense would need. experts to testify to this. And right, if this is an issue of funds and Allen. Jackson saying, "Listen, he he just. can't pay uh maybe with a public. defender, the the state can help share. the burden of some of the cost of these.

experts." Am I off on that? >> I think a little bit because Allen. Jackson fees would be 10 times the. amount that an expert would cost, right? You know, experts are costly, but it's. very unlikely an experienced criminal. defense attorney like Alan Jackson, who's got a great client list, would. withdraw from this case just because of. an expert issue. So, I highly doubt. that. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I think if there was a fee issue, it's all of the fees together, the legal. fees and the expert fees, uh, that would.

have led to him to withdrew if it's a. fee issue. And and by the way, real. quick, such a high-profile case, lot at. stake, a high-powered attorney wouldn't. just take the case pro bono. >> Probably not. He'd probably take it, you. know, as we call low bono. Um, you know, is basically a reduced fee. Um, you. know, get it's good for publicity. It's. good to be on a case like this. You. know, there's also the reporting that I. read yesterday in the New York Post that. says Alan Jackson may have wanted out of. the case because he would have been a. pariah in the Hollywood community. because he would have had to defend Nick. Reiner, whereas his parents were beloved.

in the Hollywood community as we believe. there's going to be a bunch of people in. the Hollywood community who are. witnesses in the trial. And then he may. have wanted off the case just because he. didn't want to become a pariah and. affect past and future clients. I'm not. saying that that's the case. I have no. knowledge of that, but there was. reporting in the New York Post about. that last night. M then again I mean he. just said publicly Nick Riner who's. accused of murdering his beloved. >> I don't think that's the case again I'm. not saying that's the case I don't think. someone who believes in the constitution. as much as Alan Jackson does would get. off of the case because it's an.

unpopular cause but that's what the. reporting is out there. >> so I want to just go back to whether or. not there is something to the insanity. defense right he couldn't even perceive. what he was doing he couldn't even. perceive that what he did uh was legally. or morally wrong or right you know. there's some complicating aspects to. that because you would question. Why did. he check into a hotel room early that. night when apparently he had been living. with his parents? What was he doing, you. know, on surveillance cameras? Did he. understand what had happened? But on top. of what the TMZ had reported about this. idea of he may be thinking there was a.

conspiracy against him. The Los Angeles. Times and KBC said Nick Riner was. receiving medical treatment for. schizophrenia at the time of the deaths. of his parents. And let me also add. this. Harvey Levan from TMZ said quote. sources with direct knowledge tell us a. month before the murders doctors changed. the meds Nick was taking for. schizopeeffective disorder adding when. Alan Jackson was talking about why a. jury would find him not guilty what. we're told is it has to do with changing. those meds which literally put him out.

of his head Rob and Michelle were. alarmed they saw the change in his. behavior they knew what was going on but. they're not doctors they don't know how. to solve this problem so Rob and. Michelle were watching their son spiral. and there was nothing they knew to do. that would abade it. Now talk to me. about that, Seth. >> Yeah, I mean it that's certainly a. viable defense and certainly possible. and based on the reporting, you know, obviously there's been a lot of. reporting about what happened at the. party at Conan O'Brien's house the night. before and how Nick was acting. There's. been reporting of how he was acting in.

the weeks leading up to his parents'. death. I mean, that is certainly a. viable defense if he's been diagnosed. with schizophrenia and a month before. their killings he had his medication. changed, right? If he's delusional or. not of the same mind, that is obviously. a valid defense that he couldn't form. the intent to necessary for the murder. charges. And that may be why Alan. Jackson was so specific that he's not. guilty of murder. What I've been looking. for is what did the text messages show, right? Because if he's got insane and. delusional text messages in the weeks. leading up to his parents death,

including to his parents, that would. give me the big tell. What does the. video surveillance show both before I'm. assuming there's video surveillance at. the house? What is video surveillance at. the hotel he's staying at? You know, there's a lot of pieces of evidence that. we don't know about that would give us. clues as to his mental health at the. time of the killing or even before that. because that's what I would want to know. as a defense attorney is how was he. doing in the months and weeks leading up. to his parents' death. If I'm going to. use this as a defense, obviously, if. he's been treating with a psychiatrist. and he's on medication, that's obviously. great evidence for the defense to show.

that he was diagnosed with. schizophrenia. this isn't something new. that they're making up post his parents'. killings and that that is more of a. viable defense at that point. But I. would like to see what evidence there. are. What are the medical records show? And that's going to take a long time. The other thing I'll point out is the. fact that he's been in a mental health. hospital since the date of his first. scheduled arraignment is very telling to. me. They are probably conducting a. competency examination to check whether. or not he's even competent to move. forward. Obviously, they were looked. like they were ready to have the.

arraignment this past week before Alan. Jackson withdrew. But I'd be curious as. to what's happening at that mental. health hospital because if he's not fit. to proceed, he would stay in that mental. health hospital until and if he's ever. found fit to proceed because they this. this case could be delayed if he's not. competent to understand the charges. against him. >> Yeah. I mean, look, he's been staying at. the uh Twin Towers Correctional Facility. out in LA. Uh, and People magazine says. that the Los Angeles County Sheriff, a. source, says the inmates where he's. located have significant mental health. illnesses and need to be kept alone and.

away from any other people who are. inmates. So, just something to keep in. mind. Okay. I want to ask about uh him. now being represented by a public. defender. So, Kimberly Green actually. told reporters outside of court this. >> I spoke to Mr. Miner briefly this. morning. >> He was understanding that there was. going to be a change in count. We. haven't had any in-depth conversations. Now, Lorie Levenson, who's a professor. at Lyola Law School, a former federal. prosecutor, told the New York Times that. Miss Green had actually been one of her. students. Called her quote, "One of the.

best, smart, ethical," added she knows. the Los Angeles justice system. What do. you make of the fact, cuz I think. sometimes people have misperceptions. about what the public defenders office. is and the quality of their. representation? What do you think about. the fact that now he's going to be at. least right now if he's not doesn't. retain private counsel in the future? Uh. what what should we be thinking about. that now he's represented by the uh Los. Angeles County Public Defenders Office? >> I mean, public defenders, some of them. are some of the best lawyers that I've. ever seen. Some of the most high-profile. criminal defense attorneys started out.

as public defenders. So, it's a very. noble job. They truly care about their. clients, truly care about the. Constitution and the justice system, and. they fight hard. From what I've heard, Miss Green has a great reputation. She's. handled some very high-profile and. complicated cases before and I would. look for her to treat this no different. There may be different from a PR. standpoint. She'll probably have less. press conferences outside the courthouse. um and and handle it slightly different. as a public defender. Um but I would. expect him to still get a vigorous. defense, explore all of the options here.

that we've discussed, including the. sanity defense, the passion defense, uh. and investigate and find out, you know, what really is going on here. Los. Angeles County public defender Ricardo. Garcia also spoke outside of the. courthouse this week. Take a listen. >> I want to say that on behalf of the. entire public defenders office, we are. incredibly sorry and understand the pain. and suffering that the Riner family is. going through at this time as well as. the entire Los Angeles community. The. public defenders office and the entire. staff. Our hearts at this time go out to.

the entire family. We hope that the. community will also understand it. This. is a challenging time for the entire. legal process. We ask for your patience, your understanding as we navigate this. process through the legal system and. that we will be available as we can be. to address your questions when. appropriate. Thank you. Now, in a. statement to the New York Times, I'll. also mention that a spokesman for the. Reiner family said, quote, "They have. the utmost trust in the legal process.

and will not comment further on matters. related to the legal proceedings." There. is something else that I have to. address. We mentioned it before. I think. it's really important for this case. Uh. something else that came up in court. I. want to play you Alan Jackson speaking. with the judge the other day. Your. honor, we have a matter of housekeeping. um that I'd like to address in chambers. uh and deal with the the 10 subpoenas. that are outstanding. There are 10. current subpoenas that are outstanding. We would ask that that body attachments. be issued and held for each of the 10. >> So Seth, what is this about this body.

attachment for multiple potential. witnesses? I mean, I thought if you ask. for a body attachment, you're asking. authorities to bring that witness to. court because maybe they feel that they. don't want to appear. There's been a. thought about could these people be from. Conan O'Brien's party, right? Are you. talking about celebrities? It was. reported Nick had attended this party at. Conan O'Brien's house the night before. the killings in which he allegedly went. around asking strange questions to. guests, got into an apparent weird. interaction with actor Bill her, then. had some sort of loud argument.

potentially with his father. There was a. source, by the way, that told people. that Nick was freaking everyone out, acting crazy, kept asking people if they. were famous. Family friends have. reportedly said the fight was overblown. But you wonder if these are the. potential witnesses. You wonder if they. don't want to appear for whatever. reason. Apparently the legal. representatives for two of the 10. subpoenaed parties. They were in court. that day. There was an objection. A. lawyer for one of the parties said, "I. don't see the necessity of having a. court order against an individual in. this circumstance." You had Judge. Theresa McGonagal say, "Fair enough.". She apparently issued a body attachment.

for those who did not have legal. representation in court. Hold it there. for the next hearing on February 23rd. But she also indicated that the list of. these subpoenaed people is going to. remain sealed. So you do wonder I are we. on the right track. Are we talking about. people at Conan O'Brien's party? >> Yeah, we're I mean we're probably. talking about people that the defense um. or prosecutors think are important. witnesses um and need to be subpoenaed. because they're not willing to come in. voluntarily to give their version of the.

events. you know, these body attachment. warrants are, you know, when they're. seeking a witness to come in and the. witness is not being compliant, right? And sometimes that happens just as not. because the witness is not being. compliant, but in a high-profile case, they want to dot their eyes and cross. their tees and make sure that everything. is ordered by the court. Um, but that's. to bring a person before the court um. who has information. Um, it's it's. similar to a subpoena. >> Yeah. Uh, by the way, US Weekly did a. breakdown of who may be called as.

witnesses. This is, you know, just. speculation. So, aside from other people. at the party, maybe actor Bill her, who. apparently had this encounter that night. with Nick where he allegedly told Nick. that he was having a private. conversation with somebody when Nick. allegedly tried to butt in, to which. Nick reportedly stared at him, walked. off. US Weekly also mentions Billy. Crystal, Larry David. They reportedly. visited the Riner home after the. killings. They also list comedian Eric. Idol who took to X that he said he spoke.

to Rob Reiner for over an hour the night. of the killings. You have Romy Reiner, so Nick's sister, the daughter here. She. was the one who reportedly found her. father's body. There's Jake Reiner, Nick's brother. Do you think that US. Weekly could be on the right track about. potential witnesses, potential players. in this case? >> I do. I think that those are probably. some of the prime witnesses. Certainly. Nick's siblings, his his sister Romy, who found his their parents, uh their. brother, you know, all of the talk about. what was happening in the leadup to the.

events, you know, they may be beneficial. witnesses to the defense as well, right? Because if they're able to talk about. the delusional portion of how Nick was. acting in the leadup to killing his. parents, they may be beneficial to the. to the defense. So, I think that those. witnesses could go either way. And I. think the same thing for some of Rob. Reiner's closest friends. You mentioned. Billy Crystal and Larry David. You know, those are people who were not only at. the home when the body was found. That's. really not what their testimony would be. relevant to. It's about what was Rob. telling them in the weeks and months. leading up to his death about their. interactions with their son and what.

were they observing if they're good. friends. What were they observing when. they saw Nick come over anytime they. went to to Rob Reiner's house. So, it's. not just about what happened post death, but what happened pre-death that they. observed. And they may be witnesses that. the prosecution may want to call because. these people may say, "Well, you know. what? they substantiate the mental. health defense and the insanity defense. or the heat of passion defense. So, there's a lot that needs to be. evaluated. He hasn't even been arraigned. yet, but as we I think that they're on. the right path as to some of the.

important witnesses. >> And do you think it's this potential. celebrity aspect why the list is being. sealed? >> Yes, for sure. I think it's a celebrity. aspect of the case, right, that it's. such a high-profile case and they don't. want these names to go out there. because, you know, TMZ and all the other. outlets will then go and stake out. outside these people's homes. So, even. if they are not celebrities that are on. the list, they're trying to protect. everybody because this has become such a. high-profile case. >> Um, what can we expect from maybe his. actual arraignment on February 23rd? I.

mean, he remains locked up right now. with no bail. If this actually happens, if there's not another curveball of some. kind, what can we expect from his. arraignment on February 23rd? >> I mean, I would expect his raignment. arraignment to be pretty. straightforward, right? He he'll plead. not guilty to the charges. Um, and then. they'll set a date and discovery will. start. There may be some pre-trial. hearings that need to occur. But I think. that it would be a pretty standard plea. of not guilty and then the case will. move forward. The only other thing that. could happen is if there is more mental. competency examinations that need to. occur, that would lead to another.

further delay. If his public defender. seeks to have him further evaluated as. whether he's fit to proceed with the. case, >> would he have to at that point say, "Hey, not guilty by reason of insanity. or can he reserve that for later?". >> Yeah, you just say not guilty. And then. the defense will eventually serve their. insanity defense on the prosecutors in. the court once they've had him evaluated. and decided that that's the defense that. they're going to go with. But at the. arraignment, he just pleads not guilty. and the defense that you intend to. present uh doesn't need to be discussed.

to the court at that point. >> Seth Zuckerman, thank you so much for. taking the time going back and forth. with me on some of these theories, some. of these ideas that I maybe have and. we'll see what progresses. But Seth, really, really appreciate you taking the. time. And that's all we have for you. right now here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us. And as. always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you get. your podcasts. You can follow me on X or. Instagram. I'm [music] Jesse Weber. I'll. speak to you next time.