New Evidence Shakes Up Timothy Busfield's Sex Crimes Case

And you know what's right and wrong, right? You know where people can't. touch, where people can't do Yeah, you. know that, right? Does Tim ever do that? No, he's never touched me. Never touched. you? Yeah. In the case of actor Timothy. Busfield, who's been accused of child. sexual abuse, this is the new audio of. one of [music] the child accusers. initially claiming that Busfield didn't. sexually abuse him. Coupling that with. Busfield's new court appearance, where. he has [music] been fighting to be. released from jail ahead of trial, there. is clearly.

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for a hearing to determine whether or. not he will be released pending trial on. child sexual abuse charges. But the. 68-year-old has been charged with two. counts of criminal sexual contact with a. minor and one count of child abuse for. allegedly inappropriately touching two. 11-year-old twin child actors, boys, on. the set of the Fox series The Cleaning. Lady from a few years ago. And this is, by the way, where he served as executive. producer and director. One of the boys. claims that he touched his private. areas. According to a therapist or. according to therapist notes, this boy.

has been diagnosed with PTSD and. anxiety. In fact, according to a 13-page. arrest warrant, the boy had, quote, nightmares about the director touching. him and waking up scared. And so, when. it came time to determine whether or not. Timothy Busfield would be released. pending trial, here's what happened. Now, to be clear, at the time of this. recording, they haven't made a decision. yet in terms of if he's going to be. released from jail pending trial. But. just to give you an idea, here's a. snippet of what one of the prosecutors.

had to say about Timothy Busfield. The. state is requesting that this court find. the defendant dangerous and that there. are no conditions of release that this. court can impose to secure the safety of. this community. Pretrial detention is. not a credibility trial. It's not a. civil damages dispute. Nor is it the. studio's internal investigation. It's. whether the defendant is dangerous and. if the court can impose conditions to. secure the safety of the community. Every aspect of the state's case is.

flawed. Every aspect of the state's case. is questionable. I don't need to tell the court this, but. my client is presumed innocent. As he sits here today, he is an innocent. man. And I have significant concerns about. the prosecution. talking as if he has already been.

convicted. She referred to the people who wrote. letters of support. She said, quote, they don't believe when victims come. forward. It's our legal system that starts from. the position of saying, we don't believe. It must be proven. beyond a reasonable doubt. The question before the court today is,

is the court going to hold Mr. Busfield. in custody pending the trial in this. matter, if we ever get that far? There has not yet been an indictment. It. wasn't simply that the children did not. disclose. sexual abuse. They flat out denied it. They said, no, it didn't happen. The fact is that the criminal complaint. in this case is slanted. It is slanted.

to bolster the state's case. and omit exculpatory evidence. Now, here's what I want to talk about. I want. to put all of this into context because. before that hearing came up, before that. decision was made, there is a lot about. this case that just came out. A lot to. talk about since our last episode of. Sidebar. Because this one, I have to. tell you, is not so black and white. This one feels a little different. Because I'll start with this. This just. came out. Originally, the boys were. interviewed by authorities in November. of 2024. This is when police were called.

to the University of New Mexico. Hospital. The allegation was the boys. were groomed by Timothy Busfield, who. they apparently called Uncle Tim, that. he would tickle them, talking maybe 7 or. 8 years old. But now, this is important. They initially denied that anything. sexual happened. And that is important. because just now, Busfield, as part of. his push to be released from jail. pending trial, he had these audio tapes. of the interview released. And I want. you to take a listen. So, you know.

what's right and wrong, right? Yeah. You. know no one could touch your private. areas? Yeah, but but he doesn't touch. that part. Doesn't touch your private. parts, okay. Okay. And you know what's right and wrong, right? You know where people can't. touch, where people can't do Yeah, you. know that, right? Does Tim ever do that? No, he's never touched me. Never touched. you? Yeah. And we're going to talk about. that, okay? We're going to talk about. that. But to be clear, let's be clear. about something.

Victims or alleged victims, there are. times they will first deny being abused. They may say it never happened. There's. a number of reasons that can happen. And. they might not mention it and then come. forward months later, days later, years. later. That happens. But there is two. parts of this, right? It does go to. credibility. There could be a situation. where they're not telling the truth. And. there might be motivating factors, and. that's what we're going to get into. But. even so, I mean, this has to be. considered. This has to be considered. because I have to get into a lot of the. things that Busfield has been bringing.

up. You know, since there was no further. evidence of sexual contact back in 2024, the investigation really didn't go. anywhere. That wasn't until October of. 2025. That's when things changed because. the boys' mother apparently filed a. report against Busfield with CPS, Child. Protective Services. And this is when. one of the boys then claimed that. Busfield did, in fact, touch his private. area over his clothes and was, quote, afraid to tell anyone because Tim was. the director and he feared Tim would get. mad at him. So, after conducting these.

interviews and reportedly talking to. some members of The Cleaning Lady. production crew, an investigator in this. case secured an arrest warrant. Now, in. anticipation of that hearing to. determine whether Busfield would be. released pending trial, his team. submitted an over 200-page filing to get. out of jail. And a big part of that. filing is seemingly trying to tarnish. the credibility of these two boys'. parents. And this is new from the last. time we covered this. So, in Busfield's. filing, arguing again that he should be. released, he claims, essentially, that.

these parents are fraudsters and stage. parents. You're talking about parents. who have been identified as Angel. LaSalle and Ronald Rodis. And they even. cite how, according to them, LaSalle. allegedly was heard saying to somebody. that she wanted to get, quote, revenge. on Busfield, potentially because the. boys were replaced by another child. actor in the show, that that's what the. motivation here is. Quote, the state. offers no reliable proof, only. allegations advanced by witnesses with.

documented histories of fraud and. financial exploitation, contradicted by. a comprehensive studio investigation, and refuted by witnesses and objective. risk assessments. I'm going to get into. all that. But the prosecution's case, they claim, the defense claims, quote, rests almost entirely on the accounts of. two stage parents. They're not neutral. observers. Their allegations emerged. only after the loss of the twins' role. and only after consultation with civil. counsel, creating an obvious financial. and retaliatory motive. That motive must.

be evaluated against the couple's. well-documented history of fraud and. dishonesty. So, what is Busfield. referring to with respect to these. parents? Well, Busfield claims, if you. take the father here, Rodis, essentially, the claim is, the. allegation is that he changes his story. when money's on the table, and that he's. doing this for financial gain. Saying. Rodis, quote, is a former attorney who. was convicted of federal conspiracy and. wire fraud and was later disbarred. following that prosecution for a. multi-million dollar scheme in which he. used his law license to deceive.

vulnerable victims for profit. And they. cite how Rodis previously pleaded guilty. to conspiracy to commit wire fraud, where he reportedly, quote, defrauded. more than 1,500 homeowners of. approximately $6 million. And that, again, is according to the. filing that was obtained by outlets like. People Magazine. But Busfield also cites. in this filing how apparently a member. of The Cleaning Lady production crew, who apparently knew Rodis, called him, quote, pushy and manipulative, and that. he would quote frequently encourage and. tell the children to hug people on set.

including Mr. Busfield. So, you're kind. of seeing where a defense may be going. here and what we might see at a trial. Well, what about the boy's mother? Right, Busfield is not only going. against the father, he's also going. after the mother. So, Busfield claims. that she quote has had multiple civil. judgments entered against her for. fraudulent and dishonest behavior. claiming that she was sued for quote. various claims including fraud, conversion, fraudulent transfer, and. making the allegation that she illegally. repossessed a car, that she wrote bad.

checks to casinos. Quote, the fact of. the matter is that the parents driving. the allegations against Mr. Busfield. have an extraordinarily checkered past. that casts enormous doubt on the. truthfulness of their statements. The. timeline does not indicate an. investigation naturally unfolding, but. instead an express effort to seek. revenge against Mr. Busfield after. losing the lucrative opportunity that. came with their children's acting on The. Cleaning Lady. Now, I'm going to get. into it in a little bit if any of this. is going to come into a trial, but it is.

important to talk about in the context. of this whole story and by the way, in. terms of, you know, him trying to fight. for his release. I do have to cite something else though. I think this is important. So, apparently Warner Brothers, who was a. partner in the production of this TV. show, also had an independent outside. investigation conducted and apparently. that investigation found quote no. corroborating evidence of inappropriate. conduct. And in Busfield's opposition. filing, he even claims that the. investigation quote found not only that.

allegations against Mr. Busfield were. unfounded, but also that Lassalle, the. mother, after hearing that her children. might not be returning for a fourth. season, stated to the show's lead actor. that she would quote get her revenge. against Tim Busfield. Now, there's more. In the filing, his legal team argued. that Busfield recently passed a. polygraph test and this is when he was. asked questions about these allegations. They also claim that the findings of a. psychosexual evaluation concluded that. Busfield quote does not appear to have a.

sexual attraction to prepubescent or. adolescent males or females. Is this. relevant to the case? We'll talk about. that, too. And then I got to mention. this as well. You have Busfield's wife, actress Melissa Gilbert, Little House on. the Prairie. So, she writes a letter to. the court in anticipation of this. detention hearing and you don't see this. every day, okay? Sometimes family. members, they choose to remain silent, they say I'm not going to say anything, I just want to respect our family's. privacy at this time. Apparently submits.

a letter to the court saying quote, "Tim. has the strongest moral compass of any. human I have ever known. He has. dedicated his spiritual self to always. being of service to others. He starts. every day with kindness and compassion. and every single set where Tim is. working, multiple people come up to me. to tell me he is their favorite director. ever. Your honor, this is the strangest. letter I've ever had to write. I'm. trying to tow a line between logic and. all the feelings swirling through me. I. began this letter with logic, but now. the feelings have taken over. I can't.

help it. I only want this extraordinary. man safe and whole." And then you have. the prosecution. So, first you can even. cite the detective who looked into this. case and in the paperwork in support of. the arrest said, "In my training and. experience, pedophiles often infiltrate. families under a trusted role like. Timothy who as a producer exploited the. hectic film sets to essentially sexually. abuse. and masked it as play." And prosecutors, they also cite to what they call. Busfield's quote documented pattern of.

sexual misconduct, abuse of authority, and grooming behavior. And they cite. previous allegations against him like. how back in the 1990s a 17-year-old. accused him of sexual assault on the set. of Little Big League. Or how about in. 2012 when a 28-year-old woman accused. him of groping her in a movie theater. Now, to be clear, there were no criminal. charges that were ever filed in. connection with either alleged episode. And by the way, that also includes this. other allegation because it just came. out that the father of a 16-year-old. girl came forward saying that Busfield.

sexually assaulted his daughter several. years ago and that at the time Busfield. had begged them not to go to the police. if he promised to go to therapy. Again, no criminal charges were filed in. connection with that. Now, I will tell. you Busfield's attorneys also fought. back against that. For example, with the. 17-year-old, they claimed they have a. witness who will say or has said that. the girl's father had this TV pilot that. he want that he wanted pitched and. allegedly said, "They're going to love. it because Tim Busfield is going to. present it to them, which I'm certain he. will do because he will need to if he.

thinks he's going to bleep my daughter.". So, obviously credibility is at the. center stage of this case. The fallout. though, despite all that, has already. been intense because he's fighting two. battles here, the battle in the court of. law and the court of public opinion, right? So, NBC chose not to air an. upcoming episode of Law & Order: SVU. featuring Busfield. TMZ just announced. that he's being edited out of an. upcoming Amazon MGM film You Deserve. Each Other. His agency, Innovative. Artists, apparently he's been with them. for years, dropped him as a client. So, the fallout has been intense. With all.

that in mind, let's discuss. All right, let me bring in criminal defense. attorney from New Mexico, uh John Day. John, thank you so much for coming on to. talk about this. I mean, this is. right in your jurisdiction. I'm so happy. to have you on. Um I I have to tell you, the allegations are incredibly. disturbing. I mean, uh there are cases that are built purely. on the testimony of the accusers and. sometimes child abuse accusers. I have. to tell you though, there are aspects of. this that I think give you pause. And. the audio comes out. Let's start there.

The audio comes out. There's one thing. to read that in November of 2024. they described what initially had. happened, this kind of tickling, this. Uncle Tim denied that there was any kind. of sexual contact, but then you hear the. audio. What do you think the the value. of that audio is? Um what did you take. away from it? Right. Well, thanks for having me. There's so much to unpack here. Initially this audio and it's a police. interview of the two young boys and the. officer is very direct, asks the boys,

"Did Timothy Busfield touch you in any. inappropriate way?" The answers seem. very. uh direct. The boys say, "No, he never. he never touched us." So, apparently after that within a year. after that according to the district. attorney, the boys had gone through some. kind of therapy, some kind of uh. counseling and there were according to. the prosecutors disclosures that were. the opposite of that. But when you. listen to this initial audio, there. doesn't seem to be any hesitation. Uh. the boys are really clear when they deny. that there was any inappropriate.

touching. And of course, the defense, Busfield's defense is using this to push. back real vigorously, of course, um and. to the idea that somehow Busfield. committed these crimes. And not only. does it apply to the charges, but this. is what Busfield's team is using uh to. try to convince of course the judge to. let him out of let him out of custody. pending trial with which could be a year. down the road. So, um a strategic. release of discovery by Busfield's. lawyers, they think it's going to really. help them. They're incredibly aggressive. even in this initial stage of the case.

because he's fighting two battles here, right? He's fighting a battle in the. court of law and the court of public. opinion. I mean, I think a big part of. this we've seen with celebrities before. is they don't necessarily just remain. quiet. He before even turns in turns. himself in, films a video denying the. accusations. His lawyer puts out a. statement denying the accusations. They. file this over 200-page opposition. filing really trying to tarnish the. credibility of the parents and I'll get. into that in a minute. There is two. things here, right? When you listen to.

the audio and you hear the fact that the. boys initially in November of 2024. didn't tell authorities, one way could. be, yeah, this is not true, the parents. pushed them to come forward with it or. they really didn't admit what actually. happened to them and sometimes it takes. therapy and sometimes it takes someone. to. you know, make them feel safe that they. can come forward and say what actually. happened to them. I imagine that might. be difficult for a jury to consider, but. in your perspective, do you think that there is still a. strong possibility that these boys were.

abused and it makes sense that they. didn't initially come forward with the. abuse allegations? So, I've prosecuted a lot of these cases. when I was a prosecutor and that's true, that's a thing. The idea that there can. be disclosures that don't occur until. after there's an appropriate level of. counseling, an appropriate level of. treatment by a medical professional. So, you know, you've got to remain skeptical. throughout this entire case. I think of. both sides, of prosecution's case and. the defense case because there's so much. here. You know, it's a he said, she said. case where the defense has to try to.

systematically undermine the credibility. of all the he said people. They're going. after not only the fact that there's. this tape, this audio of the boys. denying any touching, but in their. pleadings, the defense has also gone. after the parents alleging with a. factual basis that the father was a. former lawyer in California who got lost. his law license. He had been convicted. of fraud. They alleged that the mother's. engaged in fraudulent activities. They're really trying to systematically. undercut the credibility of the parents.

who brought this and they have a lot of. detail that backs up the defense. So, um I'm skeptical as I always am in going. into a case, but in this case you know. the defense has a lot of ammunition and. and to to support what they're alleging. Can we talk about that, all the. allegations against the parents? Is that. relevant? Would that be used as a. defense at trial or would that only come. in if the parents decided to testify and. you could maybe bring that in to. cross-examine them and question their. credibility?

Right. Well, the defense is going to do. everything it can to get every single. element of their claims in front of a. jury if it gets to that point because. what they're alleging is that the. parents have put together this scam. against Busfield and they have. statements from people who were. associated with the production. They. have the fact that the parents, at least. the father, has this conviction in. federal court in California for fraud. And so they want to be able to use that. in every way they can. Now, whether it. comes in unless the parents don't. testify, that's another story. That's.

going to come up, you know, in pre-trial. motions as this thing moves along. But. what they're doing right now. [clears throat] is they're in the court. of public opinion and they're fighting. back. Remember, prosecutors are. constrained to what they can say. publicly about a case. They have limits. on what they can go in front of a camera. and say about their case other than we. believe we have a strong case. We. believe we have evidence. They kind of. have to limit it to that because. prosecutors are really it's very. different for defense lawyers. Prosecutors can't really try their case. the way that the defense lawyers can in.

the court of public opinion. That's why. we're seeing Busfield's team full steam. ahead on this stuff, bringing up all the. parents' history, releasing this audio. that they've obtained in discovery from. the DA's office. So, this is a real. concerted and aggressive strategy by the. defense to try to convince people early. on that there's nothing here. How did. they get this. so quickly? They prepared an over. 200-page opposition filing so quickly, all these details about the parents, um. the audio recordings. Do you think. there's a possibility Busfield knew. these charges were coming or was it all,

"Hey, we knew there was an arrest. warrant" and he was trying to get. counsel and before he turned himself in. they were all already drafting this and. planning it? Right. What we know is there was an. interview uh by of Busfield by law. enforcement back in the fall, back in. October. So, he knew and what's. interesting about that is he fully. cooperated. He didn't have his lawyer. with them, which is another issue, I. think. But he gave this long detailed. interview to the police back in October. So, he had some sense that there was. something coming down the pike here and. he's got a very aggressive team in LA.

and in New Mexico. New Mexico lawyers. are really first-rate defense lawyers. So, what he's done is he's had some. notice that something's happening and. this audio, for example, of the boys. denying any touching would have been. turned over by the DA's office prior to. his detention hearing today. So, the. defense team had this information. The. strategic release of that, you can. understand it from a defense. perspective. They have something that. basically, in their view, exonerates. Busfield. So, why not get it out in. public? It's audio. It's the It's almost. as good as a video of the same thing.

What about the idea, let's go through. this piece by piece, the results of that. psychosexual evaluation? That he's low. risk, that he doesn't appear to have a. sexual attraction to prepubescent or. adolescent males or females. Let's start. there. What are your thoughts on that. psycho psychosexual evaluation, if those. results are true, by the way? Right. I. mean, that's open to interpretation. Of. course, the other side that the. prosecution's going to say, "Well, you. know, you pay an expert enough you'll. get whatever, you know, you'll they'll. tell you what you want to hear." But. apparently the credibility and the. credentials of the person who are. conducting it seem to be very.

legitimate. So, that's one tool that the. defense has. You know, the other thing. that they did, and this is interesting, New Mexico is one of the very few states. that allows admissibility of polygraph. exams. I use polygraph exams a lot in. New Mexico. There's a procedure to get. it in front of the judge, in front of. the jury. Of course, the prosecution's. going to fight back. But in my. experience, the jury, if they're. educated on the science of polygraphs, if they're educated on what this is all. about, it's certainly an interesting. issue. Remember, look, the US government. believes in polygraphs. The FBI and the.

CIA use them extensively. So, whatever. you think about them, there's a really. good chance that uh that his results are. going to come in. Are they reliable? I think they're reliable, but I'm biased. because I use them in a lot of cases and. the people I use as polygraphers, including the guy who did Busfield's. exam, they know that their their reputations. and their business is on the line. So, they are very, very tough on uh the the. subjects who do the polygraphs and they. don't give scores, in my experience. anyway. They don't give good scores to people.

who don't deserve good scores on these. exams. So, you know, it depends on your. perspective. Personally, I think there's. a lot of value to a polygraph and in my. case I use them. I ask people, "Would. you take a polygraph?" There's some. people who say, "Absolutely, I want to. clear my name. Let's do it today." There. are other people who say, "You know, I'm. not really good on tests, so I'm not so. sure about that." That in itself is a. good defining moment. But in my. experience, they're useful and the guy. who did this exam in Albuquerque for. Busfield has a really good reputation.

This uh talk about reliability, this. independent investigation that was. authored or conducted through Warner. Brothers. I you know, I believe they. hired an outside law firm. Um apparently. found no corroborating evidence that he. had touched inappropriately touched. these boys and according to Busfield, their interpretation also was that the. investigation found. questioning the parents' motives here, right? Um. is that you would say, "Okay, how reliable is that?" Because it's.

being conducted, this independent. investigation, it's not the same as law. enforcement. Then again, it's supposed. to be an objective independent. investigation by a law firm. Um. you What are your takeaways on that? You know, so Busfield's defense folks. are going to argue, "Look, Warner. Brothers, there's a lot on the line for. Warner Brothers. They want the best. possible uh investigation that they can. They want to know what's going on. because they have a lot of exposure. So, they hire an outside law firm that. obviously has experience in this kind of. stuff. The result they get favors.

Busfield." Prosecution, of course, is. going to argue, "Well, the motive behind. the investigation was to cover the. behinds of Warner Brothers and so you. have to discount anything that doesn't. support the prosecution in this case.". But it's a fascinating pre-arrest, pre-charge investigation by civil. lawyers into this and it's going to be. used by the Busfield people to bolster. their defense. The prosecution, the DA's. office is looking for anything they can. to discredit that and say, "Well, they. weren't law enforcement officers. They. didn't have the full story." Whatever. they're going to say.

But it's another tool for Busfield and. his incredibly aggressive defense team. to use to try to discount the. allegations. I thought it was really. interesting also that Melissa Gilbert. came forward because many times in these. kinds of cases, the family members, the. spouses, they'll say, "No comment at. this time. We want to remain private.". She submitted a letter to the court. talking about his moral compass, fully. supporting him. What are your thoughts. on that? Well, look, this is the little. girl star of Little House on the Prairie. from years back. You know, there's a lot.

of credibility, at least in the eyes of. Busfield's defense team, of this woman. who is standing by Busfield and saying, "I know this guy. This is not him." It's. a smart move by the defense. She has. credibility. She has a presence. She's. known within the country or with the. entertainment industry. And her letter. was unequivocal. It's like, "This guy. didn't do it. I know him. You got to. believe him." It's okay for the family, for the spouse to do that. Now, whether, you know, whether it it has any effect. on on anybody remains to be seen. But. you have to look at what Busfield's team. has done in a relatively short period of.

time to try to uh push back against the. DA's allegations and having people from. the entertainment industry who have. worked with him. uh certainly cuts against the claims. that the DA has put out about these. alleged prior incidents that Busfield. was engaged in. So, I mean, this really. is a battle of the of both sides are are. ready for the fight and it's been really. interesting to see how they're preparing. for this and how aggressive they're. being. And and you mentioned the prosecution. allegations. We both know that when it. comes to a detention analysis, the.

prosecution can put in a lot more. evidence than maybe they can put in. during a trial. You're seeing all these. other these past allegations of. Busfield, right? The 17-year-old, the. 28-year-old, now the 16-year-old. How. relevant is that going to be in the. actual criminal case? Because again, they're putting it in to suggest this is. a pattern, this guy should not be let. out, this is even though, you know, no. criminal charges had been. asserted from any of those prior. instances, um.

they are significant for that. consideration, for the. the detention analysis, but how. significant are they going to be in an. upcoming trial? I I think it's unlikely that in a trial. these allegations, because they are not. uh they don't involve the same facts in. terms of touching underage boys. There's. nothing apparently in the previous. allegations that involved touching. underage boys. They involved females. apparently and I think there's some. question about some of the facts. surrounding these allegations. One of. them was 30 years old. Um but remember,

the there was another recent trial where. prior allegations came in in the in the. Harvey Weinstein trial. The judge let. those in. Appeals court overturned it on. the grounds that those things shouldn't. have come in. So, this is always an open. question. It'd be interesting to see. where that goes with this. But again, this is part of the DA strategy to throw. everything they can about Busfield. against the public wall to see what. sticks. You understand why the. prosecutors have included this, but it. also raises questions again about the. facts surrounding those other. allegations and Busfield's team is. certainly going full steam ahead.

challenging those. So, you got a DA's. office that's constrained about what. they can do publicly. Defense lawyers, not so much. That's why we're seeing. such an aggressive public pushback by. Busfield's team. They don't have the. same restrictions that a prosecutor does. about going public with this stuff. And. I just want to go full circle. This case. is very much built on the testimony, the. accounts of these two young boys. Having. said that, it's not just them, right? You have the therapist notes, you have a. detective who looked at everything. and conducted interviews and suggest and.

believes that Busfield did this. I mean, how much is this, if somebody hears this. story and says, "Oh, wait, this is all. based on the accounts of these two young. boys." Um but I I think there's more. here. I think there's more here. I think. that it's complicated when you think. about their ages, but also. I think this is a very complicated case. in and of itself, but wouldn't you agree. that the credibility of these two boys. could potentially be supported by. everything else that we're seeing? I do. And and I said, I When I was a.

prosecutor, prosecuted cases where the. initial disclosures were. not the result of, you know, treatment. and the ability to have people, professional people, talk to you about. something that happened. I've certainly. seen it where there's an initial. declination. "I nothing happened to me. I don't want to talk about it. There's. no crime here. But as those boys, for. example, maybe got into therapy, got. into with professional medical help, things came out that didn't come out. initially. I have seen that happen. But. you know, at the end of the day, one of. the things you got to remember is. allegations by the prosecution that.

these boys were touched inappropriately. sexually and harmed that way. Allegations by the defense that these. boys are being manipulated by their. parents or whoever. Either way, the. victims are the boys. They're either. being manipulated or they were touched. It's one of those two things. what's. really tragic about this. At the very. end of the In the final analysis, the. two boys are the victims one way or the. other. And that's really heartbreaking. tragic. That's a really, really good. point. I'm glad you mentioned that. Um. John Day, let's see where this goes. Thank you so much.

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