Florida Student's Dorm Baby Death Was a 'Mere Mistake': Defense Expert

The young mother who allegedly killed. her baby after giving birth alone in a. college dorm bathroom and throwing her. newborn in a trash can has shed new. light on her potential defense. She. didn't know she was pregnant, she. panicked, and it was all [music] an. accident and mistake. We're diving into. new reporting and new legal paperwork. about [music] what we can maybe expect a. jury to hear as this trial approaches. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by. Law&Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

Now, as soon as we saw an update in this. case, we wanted to get it out to you as. soon as possible. And if you're in the. content creation game, if you're putting. things out on social media, one of the. ways that we're able to do that, to. really share these stories, these clips. of these stories so quickly, is we use. something called Opus Clip, okay? This. is an all-in-one AI editor that makes it. so easy to cut, create, and upload. videos across any platform. Through AI, Opus Clip generates B-roll, it reframes. footage, and even cleans up audio. It is. so easy, you just visit opus.pro/.

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the newborn in the trash can. But what. we haven't gotten into, and what is. brand new, and what we need to discuss, is her potential defense. And that is, by all accounts, this was all. unintentional. Let me set the stage. before we get into that. So, Moore is. charged with aggravated manslaughter, child neglect, unlawfully holding or. removing human remains, and failure to. report a death. And she's looking up to. potentially 30 years in prison. By the. way, it was reported that Moore was. offered a deal by the prosecutors where.

she would plead guilty and get sentenced. to 20 years in prison with 10 years of. probation to follow, but she reportedly. turned that down. So, her trial is set. to begin in March. Now, is that because. she thinks she has a good defense? Let's. talk about it. So, authorities allege. back in April of 2024, while attending. the University of Tampa, Moore, a then. 19-year-old freshman, gave birth to a. baby girl in the McKay Hall bathroom, which she shared with other students. And reports that others had heard a baby. cry, one woman apparently seeing all the.

blood in the bathroom, called campus. police. According to the Hillsborough. County State Attorney's Office, Moore. initially said that all the blood was. from her period. But then you go to the. next day when the gruesome discovery was. made by the roommates or the dormmates. This is what the charging document says, quote, "Witness one was with a friend, witness four, inside the dorm room to. gather some items for witness one. While. inside the room, witness one and witness. four saw a bloody towel inside the.

suspect's trash can. Using a Styrofoam. container, witness four touched the. towel and felt something firm inside. Believing this was possibly a baby, witness four picked up the trash bag. from the can, walked outside with. witness one, and alerted campus safety. Witness one and witness four were joined. by witness two before campus safety. arrived. Campus safety opened the towel. in the presence of witness four and. found a deceased infant.".

Now, the autopsy would reportedly. conclude that this newborn girl had. several broken ribs, as well as along. the spine, that she had small. hemorrhages in her lungs, and her cause. of death was determined to be asphyxia. due to compression of the torso. Moore. did at least apparently two interviews. with police in which she really couldn't. explain the injuries. She allegedly said. again that she didn't know she was. pregnant, that she just woke up not.

feeling good, went to the bathroom, realized that she was in active labor, and says that the baby cried for a few. seconds, and then went quiet, and she. wrapped her in the towel. In fact, by. the way, so that's what she allegedly. said. And I will tell you, here is a sampling of what she had to. say in her discussion with detectives. Can you tell me about the baby? The baby? Listen, you're a very smart, I know Yes.

your biology professor, okay? So, you. know all that, and you know about DNA, you know all those things, okay? We have a very young baby. right now, right outside your room. You had quite the ordeal, it sounds like. yesterday morning in the bathroom for a. few hours, okay? Listen, we're not. judging at all on this, okay? People can get in over their heads. sometimes,

they're not sure what to do, okay? >> Okay. But just let's be. Let's just be honest, okay? Basically, um. first of all, I did not even know that I. was pregnant. >> Okay. Um. and then I. did I just woke up not feeling good. yesterday morning. So, I went to the bathroom. Um I was puking, whatever, and then. Yeah,

but after like a few seconds, it was. dead. Um. How long did the baby cry for? Cuz I. know all the roommates and sweet mates. all heard the baby crying. How long? >> I would say like. 5 seconds, maybe. >> 5 seconds of crying? >> Something around that-ish. Okay. Did um. Did you take the baby back to bed for. you for a short time period? I was in. the bath I just stayed in the bathroom. You just stayed in the bathroom?

If you could do it again, what would you. do? Um. probably. when I. started feeling bad, probably go to the. hospital. I but um. once I thought that I was in labor, I just I was like, I can't afford, first. of all, to have a baby at the hospital. And then I was like, I just I got so. panicked, I didn't know what to do. And. then I was like, okay, well, if it. if it makes it, then I can just take it.

to the hospital and surrender it. the baby. Cuz you can do that, can't. you? You can take it to a hospital. Yeah, that's what I had in my head that. I was going to do. But then I just. didn't. Um. then it just didn't seem alive. So, I didn't. Can I ask why wouldn't or didn't call. 911? Cuz I was scared, and I didn't want. anyone to know, and it's just I don't. know. I just got scared and panicked, and. I don't know.

But now I want to talk about the. defense, okay? So, according to police, Moore was pregnant when she arrived on. campus. But Moore said she had no idea, admitted that she may have been in. denial. Moore reportedly admitted to. police that she sat with the baby for a. while in the bathroom, took a shower, fell asleep for around an hour, apparently told Tampa police that she. believed the baby died not long after it. was born, says that she was shocked, panicked, and that she allegedly ended. up putting the dead child in a trash. can. So, now I want to get into the.

defense's argument, but I'm not going to. do it alone. I want to bring on criminal. defense attorney, former prosecutor, Matt Mangino. Matt, thank you so much. for coming back here on Sidebar. Really. appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Jesse. So, I want to start here. Moore's. attorneys, they filed what's known as a. motion in limine, this pretrial. evidentiary motion about what can and. can't. can't be introduced during a trial, what. can't be heard by a jury, what could be. heard by a jury. And this is about. introducing mental health testimony for. a very specific, limited purpose, state.

of mind. I'm going to read directly from. the motion. It says, quote, "The defense intends to introduce. narrowly tailored expert testimony. explaining how the defendant perceived. and interpreted events during the events. surrounding the incident underlying this. case. The evidence is offered to assist. the jury in evaluating the totality of. the circumstances surrounding the. defendant's conduct, which expressly. recognized by Florida law. The defense. is not raising legal insanity and does.

not seek to introduce testimony that the. defendant lacked the capacity to form. intent. Florida does not recognize. diminished capacity outside the insanity. framework. However, culpable negligence. must be determined upon the facts and. the totality of the circumstances and. each particular case." Matt, that's a. lot of legalese. What does it mean? Well, what it means is, you know, she's. charged with aggravated manslaughter, and you have to show culpable. negligence, okay? A you know, a a.

blatant disregard for the safety of. another person, in this case, a newborn. And and so, because uh of that, this opens the door to try to bring in. this expert testimony. with regard to her state of mind. What. was she going through at the time? And. the defense is alleging that this is a. a cryptic pregnancy, uh and that that uh she didn't know she.

was pregnant. In fact, she didn't. realize she was having a baby until. she's, you know, in labor, in pain, laying on the floor in her her her. dormitory uh bathroom. And so, she was. scared, she she didn't know what was. happening, she didn't know how to react. to that, and that's all. important in defending this this. culpable negligence under this. aggravated manslaughter charge. Let's. explore that a little bit more. It says. the defense's experts will not testify.

that Ms. Moore was unable to form. intent. Instead, the testimony will. address her psychological responses to. acute stress and how the diagnosed. condition affects cognition and conduct. relevant to the specific defense of. mistake, a recognized defense to allege. reckless or willful criminal misconduct. Under the confrontation clause of the. 6th Amendment, criminal defendants enjoy. the right to present such reliable and. exculpatory evidence and witnesses in. their defense. This right is.

incorporated through the 14th Amendment. and made applicable in all state. prosecution. So, Matt, can you explain. that a little bit? There's They're. They're now saying, right, this was. evidence of a mistake, right? Didn't. realize what was going on. It's a. tragedy and through the Constitution, she has a right to present this defense? Well, that's it. That's an interesting. way to frame it, okay, because, you. know, normally when you hear about the. confrontation clause in the United. States Constitution,

we're talking about being able to. confront people who are. making allegations against you, people. who are accusing you of a crime. In this. situation, it's kind of turning the. Constitution on its head a bit by. saying, "Hey, not only do we have the right to. confront people. who have evidence against us, we also. have the right to present evidence to. counter that uh evidence that the. prosecution or the state is going to to.

present against us. So, you know, it's kind of a twist on the. confrontation clause, but I think it's. it's it's a a good argument because of. the circumstances in this case, the. specifically what the charges are and. what needs to be proven in terms of. those charges, uh that this individual. uh has the opportunity to present. evidence about their state of mind, what. they were thinking, what was going on in.

this situation. And it's it's really um. if you think about it, you know, as we. said, a cryptic preg- pregnancy, although it's not common, it's not. unheard of. And could you imagine if. you're the defense trying to explain to. the jury what this 19-year-old was going. through when she discovered. she was pregnant only when she went into. labor by herself in her her dorm. bathroom. It makes that state of mind so. important to this defense.

>> And it will be a fact issue if that's. true, if she's being honest about that. And I'll get into that a little bit. more. Just generally, before we get into. more specifics here, have you seen a. mistake defense work in the sense the. case is completely thrown out, the judge. completely dismisses the charges, or it. goes to trial and a defendant is found. not guilty, whether it's in relation to. a pregnancy case or another case? You've. seen this actually be asserted and. either dis- the charges are dismissed or. someone's found not guilty? I I've seen. it asserted not with the result of a.

dismissal of the case, but I I I've seen. it raised where the courts have. permitted evidence to be submitted with. regard to that issue of mistake. Uh and, you know, again, you're talking about two different. things here. We're We're talking about. one, first, are you going to have the. opportunity to even present that. defense? And secondly, if you do have the. opportunity to present it, would be.

successful? So, there there there's two. sort of thresholds or hurdles. First, can I even present this? Second, would be successful. So, let's get into this a little bit. more. Now, before we even get into who's. going to be called and what they might. testify to, or potentially called, just. another thing that they're asking for in. this filing is they're asking for a. specific instruction to be read to the. jury about this. Quote, "You have heard. testimony regarding the defendant's. mental health condition. This evidence. is admitted solely for the purpose of. explaining the defendant's perceptions.

and state of mind at the time of the. incident. You may not consider it as. evidence that the defendant lacked the. capacity to act willfully or reckless-. or recklessly. Florida law does not. recognize diminished capacity as a. defense except in cases involving legal. insanity." So, that's what they were. hoping the judge would read to the jury. when this trial ultimately happens. Okay. Now, I want to get a little more. specific into this defense because it's. being reported by the Tampa Bay Times. that the defense is citing an expert in. nursing and midwifery, someone named. Lilia Passman, who apparently concluded.

that the evidence in this case doesn't. support that Moore intended to hurt or. kill her baby girl, but that she made a. series of bad decisions that were caused. by extreme stress, that she didn't know. what was going on, that she panicked, that this little girl. died as a result of an accident, that. this was not the result of child neglect. or deliberate willful harm. Passman apparently wrote in her report.

that Ms. Moore's actions are more. consistent with a mere mistake, a tragic. unintentional event occurring during a. medical emergency for which she was. wholly unprepared. And when it comes to, "Okay, well, how. do you explain the baby's injuries that. I mentioned before?". Well, Passman apparently said it's. possible that the rib fractures happened. during the birth process and that the. baby fell onto the bathroom floor. That. the baby's breathing could have been. impacted by bodily fluid. So, in other.

words, this baby needed medical help, but it doesn't mean that Moore committed. a crime. And she writes in her report, "While her decisions were medically. unsafe, they appear driven by confusion. and panic rather than by gross. negligence or purposeful harm.". Matt, you have this testimony of this. registered nurse practitioner who has. assisted in reportedly more than 2,000. births. A, should this testimony be allowed into. evidence? Should a jury hear it? And B,

is it effective? Well, Jesse, that goes. back to what we were we were discussing, that the court has to decide if this. testimony, um you know, frankly, is relevant. Is. her state of mind, uh you know, relevant? Because. she's charged with aggravated. manslaughter. And, you know, this is not. an accusation of um. uh of. intentional. Yeah, this They're not arguing that she. intentionally killed the newborn.

They're arguing that that she was. culpably negligent. She had a disregard. for the health and safety of this. newborn that caused uh the newborn's. death. And And it deals particularly. with people who are more vulnerable, like the elderly. In this case, a. newborn certainly is vulnerable as you. can get. And so, you know, the idea that. her state of mind. is really relevant to that is up. is questionable. The court has to.

decide, does her state of mind make a. difference here? Because this is not an. allege- an allegation of an intentional. killing. Do they have to prove more. than, "Hey, she just didn't call 911, she didn't call a doctor"? It has to be. more than that in order to find her. guilty of manslaughter? Not necessarily. I mean, you know, the. the fact of the matter is that you know, you know, did her. conduct or her omission rise to the.

level of culpable negligence? Did Did. her conduct rise to the level where it. it it put it was an extreme indifference. to human life, to an obviously very. vulner- vulnerable person, this newborn. child? Now, according to the Tampa Bay Times, the defense also wants to call Dr. Deborah Nutson-Gonzalez. So, this is a. Sarasota psychiatrist, a professor at. the Morsani College of Medicine at the. University of South Florida, and she.

specializes in the mental health of. pregnant and newborn newborn mothers. Now, her findings in this case haven't. been publicly released, but considering. they want to call her or. allegedly call her, Matt, what can we expect her testimony. to be if this is if her specialization. is what is going on in the mind of a. newborn mother or pregnant mother? Yeah, that's interesting. Uh you know, as as I was reading the news reports. myself, I mean, you know, this is.

a woman on the one hand, a 19-year-old. girl who's suggesting that she didn't. know she was pregnant, okay? She didn't. realize she was pregnant until she's on. the floor in labor in her dorm room. So, you know, how does. this expertise of of the mental health. of of women who are pregnant, how does. that become relevant here? Unless she's. going to speak. with regard to that very specific period.

of time when one, she realizes she's pregnant, two, she has this child alone in in her. dorm room, and three, she holds the. child until the child stops. crying Right. >> and is ultimately dead, which she knows. pretty rapidly cuz she wraps her in a. towel and and puts her in her her dorm. room. So, you know, I'm. I'd be anxious to see how that uh how.

that testimony would affect or impact. the defendant in this case. And how. relevant is I mean, I'm It's Imagine. it's very relevant to to what caused the. baby's death, right? You know, they talk. about these injuries. Well, she's. saying, "Well, it could have been from. the birthing the this other expert uh. potentially says it was happened during. the birthing process, she fell on the. floor, maybe it was the fluid." Um. obviously, if she was giving birth in a. hospital, these issues wouldn't happen. But does the prosecution fight this? Does the prosecution put in their own. expert to talk with the medical. examiner? Do they bring in their own.

mental health expert? Do they say "Okay, yeah, the the baby might have died from. the fluid, the baby might have died from. falling on the floor, but it was the. mother's fault. It was the mother's. fault." Uh we're we want to debate. whether she held her too tight or she. deliberately I mean, that becomes the. question is what does the prosecution. fight here? Do they just cross-examine. these witnesses about mental health of. the mother? Do they say, "We don't even. have to. This proves our point." You. know what I'm trying to say? Yeah, well, you know, obviously they're. going to have a medical examiner that.

that's going to testify uh to the cause. and manner of death. And in in this. instance, you know, you they conducted. an autopsy, they're able to make those. types of determinations. Um and it's obviously a homicide is is. the manner of death in this case. So, I. I think what the prosecution does is. you can fight this whole state of mind. situation if you can show through some.

evidence that you've accumulated during. this investigation that she. knew she was pregnant. Yeah. So, so, you. know, that's you know, once you can show. that she knew she was she was pregnant. then her state of mind, you know, her. mental health really doesn't have. anything to do with this case any longer. cuz she knew what was going to happen. and she may have known it for months. Do. you think that that's a viable. explanation that she didn't know that.

she was pregnant? Um. perhaps this idea that she didn't wasn't. experiencing symptoms, didn't experience. a a weight gain because I think the last. time that we talked about Moore here on. Sidebar, to give everybody a sense of. what we're talking about it was reported. that the defense also wanted to bring in. the expert testimony of Dr. Nicole. Graham, a forensic neuro uh uh. physicist. And the state deposed Dr. Graham in May, included a transcript uh. from the conversation or the interview. in their filings where Dr. Graham. discussed what a mild disassociative.

state is like. Quote, "It is a bit of a. disconnect from reality, but not in the. psychotic sense where you're. misperceiving reality, but in the sense. in which your emotions and your. cognitive thought processes aren't. aligned with how you would typically act. in day-to-day functioning. We might see. people in a disassociative state as a. response to trauma where they do have. gaps in their memory or they have like. perceptual disturbances. Sometimes. people report feeling being disconnected. from the situation, so they feel as.

though they're not even in their own. body." And during the deposition, Dr. Graham reportedly said of Moore, "She. described herself as being numb. that she kind of just didn't feel. anything. And likewise in the reports. immediately surrounding that time had. described her likewise as being numb or. flat where the presentation wasn't. consistent with the severity or reality. of the allegation of what of what she. had gotten herself into." So, Matt, there's this next issue, right? She. didn't even understand what was going. on. She was in a disassociative state. She didn't realize that she was pregnant.

because of that. So, you couple I mean, again, this trial. feels like it's going to be quite long. if now you're getting into this other. concrete issue about did she even know. she was pregnant? What was her physical. conditions? Can they prove her the body. was changing over time in a way where. she would notice it? Um was she having. symptoms? But also this other thing like. was she in a disassociative state? Well, you know, this is going to be a a. battle of experts ultimately. If in fact.

the court permits these experts to to. testify during trial because, you know, the number one thing is the judge has to. decide, you know, how far does defend. can the defense go? You know, what do. they have to support these expert. opinions? Uh and and are they all relevant to this. case based on what the specific charges. are in this case. Uh but but here. I mean, obviously they have resources at.

their disposal, the defense, and and. they're using those resources uh to try. to to bring as much information to this. jury if they're permitted to. uh. to frankly, you know, cloud the issue. Uh you know, you know, it's always. about, you know, credibility, believability, and it's proving a case. beyond a reasonable doubt. And if you. have so much of this expert testimony. floating around uh in front of this.

jury, you know, is it enough to create. doubt uh in this instance? You mentioned before, I'm going to say. one of the things that might complicate. this is. when authorities got their hands on the. digital evidence from Moore's phone they. found disturbing messages. Quote, "On. September 13th, 2023 the defendant This. is according to authorities in their. filing. On September 13th, 2023, the. defendant sent multiple text messages. back and forth with a contact in her. phone labeled Qaseem. These texts are.

part of a much larger chain of text. messages. However, the messages relevant. to this motion occur only on September. 13th, 2023. So, in September of 2023, Moore, right, would arguably already. have been pregnant, although whether she. knew or not, that's what we're talking. about. That's up for debate. I'm going. to read you some of these. I have to. warn you highly disturbing, very. unpleasant. But in the messages, uh Moore and Qaseem are allegedly. talking about what are sometimes. referred to as morning-after pills or. abortion pills.

So, Qaseem calls them plan C and says, "Crazy." Moore replies, "Hey, man, sometimes you need a plan C.". Now, Qaseem writes, "Plan A was condoms, plan B was the pill. Plan B was to kill. the kid." To which Moore says or. allegedly says, "Plan C is my favorite.". Again, to kill the kid. Now, in a motion. to have the text included as evidence at. trial, the prosecution wrote, "The. September 13th, 2023 text messages are. relevant. They very clearly lay out a.

willingness to kill a baby if other. means of contraception have failed. Although intent to kill is not an. element of the charge defenses, there is. an intent element inherent in the. willful failure to provide care of a. child neglect charge and consciously. doing an act or following a course of. conduct that gives rise to culpable. negligence for an aggravated. manslaughter charge." So, Matt, prosecutors say those messages reflect. the state of mind issue that we're. talking about. Yeah, and and those.

messages would be quite damaging to the. defense because if if a jury accepts. that those messages. uh. were. clear understanding of what her. situation was and how she might handle. it. uh. it blows everything all the other. defenses out the window for the defense. because because. the idea that she was in this panic. state uh just doesn't, you know, ring. true when she knows she's pregnant and.

now she's in labor and and and she she. wants to say, "Well, I didn't understand. what was going on." That whole defense. is out the window if. this information can come to the jury. and they believe in fact that it it it. was her state of mind at the time uh. to to terminate her pregnancy by. essentially killing the newborn. Now, look, I mentioned before that she. reportedly turned down a deal, 20 years. in prison. Um.

you know, you're taking this to trial. now based on what I've. laid out as potential witnesses, potentially may come into evidence, potential defenses. You think it was a. wise move to turn down that kind of. deal? I mean, 20 years is still a lot. Yeah, I mean, 20 years is a lot of time. Uh she's a 19-year-old girl. Uh. the. defense uh and and defense counsel must. feel strongly about the the defense that.

they've put together in in the uh. the manner that they're moving forward. Uh but ultimately, you know, there's a. thing and we all we all know about it, Jesse, and and it's the trial penalty, whether we want to acknowledge it or. not. I mean, you get a plea deal. and you turn it down, you go to trial. and you get convicted, you can expect. that you're going to you're going to get. substantially more time than than was. originally offered to you. And and the. prosecution is is certainly going to. pound away at that or plea plea.

bargaining means nothing if you get the. same thing after trial that you would. have got off when when when you when you. were negotiating a plea. So, um you know, you put a lot on the line. by going to trial in a case like this. And and to be clear, we went on the. court website and regarding what we. initially talked about, this motion in. limine, right, to allow this specific. expert testimony and that specific. instruction uh. to be read by the judge to the jury. Uh. all that it says or all we could find is. it says motion in limine by defense on.

diminished capacity granted in part. denied in part. So, we don't really know. what was decided. Um we can speculate. Maybe there's one. part. I'm not really sure. But we will. see uh what develops from this and what. comes out uh in anticipation of trial. It's a really really sad case. It's one. I've seen before. I've seen outcomes on. both ends. Um and it's very. fact-specific. So, Matt Mangino thank. you for coming on. Thank you for. explaining the legal complex.

complexities that are involved in a case. like this, but I really appreciate you. taking the time. Thank you, Jesse. And. that's all we have for you right now. here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so. much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, [music]. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you. should get your podcasts. You can follow. me on X or Instagram. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time.