Dark Clues Emerge in Nancy Guthrie Kidnapping Case

And I want to just just take the. opportunity to. to ask people to really to beg people to. come forward. Somebody knows something. [music]. >> We have more updates in the Nancy. Guthrie case. First, more information. about this [music] second note, presumably saying that Nancy Guthrie is. dead. There's also questions about. [music] the cryptocurrency and the. Bitcoin. And a former FBI agent has come. out and said the authorities may be. [music] close to capturing the porch. guy. Let's talk about it. Welcome to. Sidebar, presented by Law & Crime. I'm. Jesse Weber.

There are cases that stick with you. Cases that you really can't shake, you. can't stop thinking about. And I will. tell you for the last 5 months, this has been one of them. Nancy Guthrie, 84 years old, mother of. Today show anchor Savannah Guthrie, vanished from her home in the Catalina. foothills outside Tucson, Arizona back. on February 1st. Here's what we know. She was taken against her will. The Pima. County Sheriff's Department and the FBI. have been clear about that. This was not.

a wandering off. This was not a medical. episode. This was an alleged abduction. You've seen the footage, the masked man, the doorbell camera, the gun, the. flashlight in the mouth, the way he. seemingly tried to cover the lens with. flowers or this foliage from her own. garden. It's chilling. It's unsettling. It's been burned into our brains for. months now. But here's the question. that's come up. And I'm going to get into it later with. someone who's going to help us find the. answer, who, you know, really I I think. an excellent expert on this. Is the FBI any closer to closing in on. this person or persons? Because.

according to a former FBI agent who. spoke this week, they might be. So, we'll get more on that in a bit. Here's the thing. For all that footage, for all the attention, for all the. reward money, $100,000 from the FBI, another million dollars from the family, we still don't have answers. We don't. have suspects. We don't have arrests. We. don't have Nancy. We don't know what's. going on behind the scenes. We don't. know if there's a person of interest or. suspects, but as of right now, we're not. seeing anything. And then what happened. this week? We got something new. Something changing. how we're looking at things here. But before we even get to that, I just.

got to take you back super quick. Timeline matters here, especially what. investigators say happened in that first. 24 hours. So, according to the Pima. County Sheriff's Office, Nancy was last. seen the night of January 31st. She had. dinner at her daughter Annie's house. Her son-in-law drove her home, dropped. her off at around 9:40 p.m., saw her go. inside, garage door went down at 9:50. Next day, February 1st, a friend calls. Nancy didn't show up for church. They go. to the house, back doors are open, blood. on the front steps. DNA later confirms.

it's Nancy's blood. She's nowhere to be. found. Just days later, the notes start. arriving, right? Media outlets in Tucson. began receiving these messages just days. after Nancy vanished. According to CBS. News and multiple investigators that. were familiar with the case, the first. note sent on February 2nd. demanded millions of dollars in Bitcoin. for Nancy's safe return. And what made. investigators take it seriously was the. level of detail it contained. As FBI. special agent in charge, uh, Heath Janke. confirmed at a press conference, "Quote,

one talked about an Apple Watch and one. talked about a floodlight in Nancy. Guthrie's home." So, those specifics led. authorities to believe the communication. might be legitimate. Only someone who, uh, would have taken her would know. those details, right? And here's a. detail I want to come back to later. When law enforcement got that Bitcoin. wallet address, they had a decision to. make. Do they pay it? Do they pay the. money? Do they track the money? What. they actually did, what happened next, it's one of the more revealing parts of. this investigation. We're going to get. into that. But Savannah and her siblings.

responded directly to the kidnappers. On. February 7th, they posted a video on. Instagram in which Savannah addressed. whoever was holding their mother, begging for her return so they could. celebrate with her, offering to pay. And then came a second note. This is the. big one. According to CBS News, it was. sent on February 6th. Reportedly arrived. from the same IP address as the first, leading investigators to believe that. the same person or people were behind. both communications, but this message. said something different. And it was.

devastating. Multiple sources, including CNN and NBC. News, report that the second note. claimed Nancy had died. According to sources who reviewed the. note, it indicated that her death was. not intentional, that she died shortly. after being taken, and the note also. reportedly said she was {quote} buried. in nature. You know, I believe it might have been. Air Mail who broke that news first, but. NBC News was on top of that from the. beginning, the second note's contents. and what happened on the Today show. yesterday. That after that report, Savannah spoke.

directly to the camera. She was sitting. at the Today show desk, surrounded by. her colleagues. She was crying, and she. begged anyone who knows anything to come. forward. >> But I can't pretend I'm not here, and so. since I am, I wanted to just take the. opportunity to. to ask people, to really to beg people. to come forward. Somebody knows. something. And this is a new story today that is on. your radar, but this is the life that my. sister lives, that I live, that my. brother lives, that our extended. families live, that our children live.

every day. And we are in agony. And we cannot be at peace. >> But here's where it gets strange, because different outlets are describing. that second note differently. CNN CBS. say contained an apology, one source. saying it included the phrase "We are. truly sorry," but NBC, citing three. people that are familiar with the. matter, says the note had no apology at. all, made no request for payment in. exchange for her body, and TMZ founder. Harvey Levin has publicly pushed back, saying the note his outlet received. contained no reference to Nancy dying at.

all. But on the question of whether. authorities have confirmed if the notes. are real, there's no public official. statement from the FBI or the Pima. County Sheriff's Department definitively. confirming the notes are authentic, as. far as we can see at the time of this. recording. And that's what I want to dig. into, because if these notes are real, if the same person or people who took. Nancy sent them, then we have to start. asking hard questions about what they. actually tell us. And can they be. tracked? Look, let me say something. We. cover the dangers in this world all the. time on Sidebar. But you know something.

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management expert, FBI SWAT tactical. operations team leader, extensive. experience in crisis situations. Again, so happy to have you on here, Daniel, to. talk about this. So I have a lot of. questions. I want to start with the. second ransom note or the second note. Let's just call it that. Now, different. outlets are describing it differently, right? Some say there was an apology of. some sort, some say there wasn't. I want. to assume for a moment that this version. was an apology. If they're apologizing.

and they're saying that Nancy Guthrie is. dead, that she's buried with nature, doesn't that say something about them. one way or not? Now, I don't know if. they're telling the truth, but doesn't. it say something about the sender or. senders? >> I think it does. I mean, you're. See, I've been I've been reading a lot. in the last couple days. A lot of other. FBI agents are are coming on and. providing their their opinions on how. what you know, what does it say? You. know, what is the traditional. you know, kidnapper do they apologize?

They don't apologize. And listen, from. the beginning when I when this incident. happened back in February, I was. constantly saying this isn't the normal. kidnapping. This isn't falling in line. And that's based before that video was. released of the doorbell cam. You can. see this this suspicious individual who. is walking around holstered isn't. normally where someone wears a holster. They're walking around not familiar or. what they're doing. The blood droplets I. believe this incident was a.

you know, a kidnapping that the the. individual really didn't think about. I. don't think this is a professional. kidnapping team. I don't think this is a. well-thought-out operation by the. kidnapper. So, in you know, going in. that line, I don't think you can. consider the notes, you know, from. normal kidnappers to be reliable. And. and and like I said, it you know, well, normal you know, kidnappers professional. kidnappers don't apologize. Well, we're. not dealing with professional kidnappers.

here. I think we're dealing with. amateurs who saw a quick buck, a way to. make some money, and they didn't realize. who she was, and they didn't realize her. health concerns. They didn't realize. what the ramifications were. They. thought this would be a quick. turnaround. So, I think that they really. didn't think about it. So, then when. they sent that second note, if it is. authentic, if the first and second notes. are authentic, let's go down this. pathway. If the second note was I think. they genuinely were like, you know, I messed up. I'm sorry because.

they're not professionals. They're not. professionals. They didn't think about. the ramifications. >> let's let's just think about it from. there. Would there be any reason to lie. about whether Nancy was alive or not? I. mean, look, it when I read it, if I take. it as true, I wouldn't be surprised. because, you know, in a missing person's. case, in a kidnapping case, the first few days, the first few hours. are so critical, but particularly when. you're dealing with an 84-year-old woman. that has health elements. I'm not. surprised if there was a situation where. she passed. I mean, there was a question. about her not properly having her.

medication. But, would there be any. reason to lie about this? To if she. really were alive. >> No. >> she died. >> I don't think there's a reason to lie. No, I think that they were being. genuine. I think that they realized. this was may have been their way of. saying, "Hey, I'm sorry it happened.". Maybe in their mind this would like make. it go away, make the problem go away, make law enforcement not look for them. So, I don't know, you know, what was in. the mindset of this kidnapper because. this doesn't fall in the normal.

kidnapping, you know, you know, realm. We've talked about this. So, I think. that I think this was their way of. trying to get out of the get out of. trouble. >> Well, if they want to get out of. trouble, if they feel really bad, why. not provide details about the location. of her body? >> Well, I think at the second. I I think. that's a great question as to why they. haven't to this point. I think the. again, the the the tumbleweed of how. quickly this grew in national and. international attention. I mean, I did.

interviews for countries in England, Spain, in South America. People around. the world were fascinated with this. I. don't think they realized it. Then, the. the fact of if they provide evidence, if. provide clues to law enforcement, that. may get that law enforcement closer to. them. It's just their way of, you know, quickly putting it away, you know, quickly burying the body and just. pretending like it didn't happen. You. know, you have to look at it from the. mindset of like, you know, a lot of us. have children and then the children, you. know, you know, do something and put it.

and bury it behind the counter, behind. the, you know, you you you know, you you. put some garbage or you picked up, you. know, a big Oreos and just stash it back. there, pretend it didn't happen, the. evidence is gone. So, I think that may. have been one of their mindsets. I think. uh Kash Patel really jeopardized, you. know, any possibilities of really, you. know, you know, resolving this by. releasing that video too soon because. then the the individuals who were at. that front door saw that. Everyone knows. about the the the physical evidence now, the backpack, the guns. You know, and.

that so they they were destroyed that. They destroyed Oh, oh my gosh, I got to. get rid of this. So, I think Kash Patel. really jeopardized this investigation uh. with his uh ineptitude in putting it on. on. >> The other way of looking at it is you. release that information to the public, maybe somebody saw something. >> No. No. No. Absolutely not. No. They. they No. Because here's here's the. problem with that. They They got that video and here's why. the the investigation investigation. completely derailed when that video was. released. That video was obtained by the FBI and.

then quickly released. Every FBI agent you'll talk to, every. investigator, every analyst will say. they want that video and they want to. analyze it for days. They want to. dissect it. They want to figure out what. they what the backpack was, what the gun. was, what and it, you know, not give. that clue to the to the to the the. kidnappers and say, "Hey, we know about. what you're wearing. We know that you. were doing this. We know that you were. at this front door." The last thing you. want to do is letting, you know, letting.

your criminals know that you're on their. tail because that physical evidence. proves incredibly important in trial. So, if they were able to determine the. backpack, who bought it, where they. bought it. But, we know for a fact that. it was released immediately upon upon. being obtained by the FBI. And I know. for a fact that there were numerous FBI. employees who wanted to dissect it. As a. case agent, I would want that video and. just peel it apart case by case. If you.

saw the day after that video was. released, what happened? They popped the. tent up outside the porch. Why? Because. they were trying to determine the height. of the individual. They were They were. doing analysis. That should have been. done days before it was released. That. video should have been analyzed by the. FBI and and before release. Then, once. everything is squeezed out of that video. and nothing comes of it, then you. release it to the public. >> No, no harm, no harm. >> I mean, you're you're talking to the guy. who believes even if there was an arrest. in this case, there'd be ample room for. a defense attorney to really attack the.

evidence. I mean, potential. contamination of the crime scene is a is. a key factor. But, I just want to go. back for a second to the note. How How. have authorities been able to. potentially authenticate the note or. say, "We believe it's the same person. that sent the first note, right? The. first note that had the ransom demand, that had key details about the Apple. Watch, um about the Powells, remember. the backlight?" It's what seemed to. suggest the details in there would be. only known by somebody who committed or. allegedly committed the crime. How are.

they authenticating those notes and and. and. and let me do give you a second question. here. Is there a way to track the sender? I. know there's a lot of conversation about. the same IP address, the same computer, proxy servers. So, how do they. authenticate both, say these are. legitimate from the same people, and how. do they track down who sent it? >> Excuse me. Absolutely. Those are all. great questions and that's the the. investigation team is able to look at. that. The IP address, are they using a.

virtual private network, a VPN, to hide. where the email is coming from? These. are all things that I am sure the FBI. analysis team, the the the CART team, they analyzed every single digital piece. of evidence. And we know that they. submitted uh they. a $157 worth of crypto to the set. account to see if there would be a. withdrawal and then that would provide. additional information. >> The 152 of Bitcoin, right? Like. >> Excuse me, 152 of Bitcoin, sorry. Yes, 152 of Bitcoin to the account to see who.

would withdraw it and then that would. create more bread trails. That would. create more and you know, more and more. clues and you know, and and and what we. would do is tickle the wire. Is creating. a situation where okay, now the. individuals the the the suspects are. coming on to it. So, yes, every single. piece of it the behavioral analysis unit. Quantico, the experts at at thinking and. getting into the mind. of these criminals. I am sure they. looked at it and see that is the same. language, same rhythm, same you know,

gestures, the same you know, method of. writing. Everything changes like I said. from from one to the second. What they're saying is the different. language, the different tone. So, every. single piece of evidence from the moment. it's brought in, how did they why did it. go to TMZ and why did it go to a local. station? Those are all analyzed and the. the the the analysis team at the FBI, some of the best in the world. You you. got some of these guys who who've been. doing this for their their entire life. They're going to find it if there is a. possibility of a clue of a thread,

they're going to go down this. I am sure. that every single thread was was pulled. on to to figure out the origin of these. emails and the the the communication. Why was it an email? Well, let's go to. those servers. Let's go to the servers, you know, was it Gmail? Okay, let's. serve a search warrant on Gmail. Let's. look at that account. Who opened the. account? When was it opened? What was. the IP address that opened the account? Every single piece is not just looking. at the email and who was the sender, but. let's look at the account. Who opened.

the account? When was it opened? At what. point, you know, where was the IP for. serving? And how many access times was. it accessed? How many times did they log. in? They looked at everything. So, I am. sure that everything was dissected. >> Going back to something that you. mentioned that law enforcement had this. decision to make, right? Like what do. they do with the. with the squa with this wallet? So. according to the New York Post, the FBI. deposited $152. worth of Bitcoin into that wallet. It. was a $4 million request for crypto. They put in 152. You talked about. tickling the wire. Hasn't been touched.

It's just sitting there. Why do you. think that is? Does that tell you. something? And. I I've seen articles suggesting was it a. mistake to do it this way? Your. thoughts. >> I think that. the this right here, the media's. attention to the event, attention to. everything that happened, I think the in. my opinion, I think the kidnappers. learned about it. So when people. started, you know, speculating, okay, they they're they're requesting Bitcoin,

then you had Bitcoin experts coming out. and saying, well, if you submit it via. Bitcoin, then they'll be able to with if. they withdraw, I think that that's. possibility. That's something that has. to be considered that they did not. withdraw because they didn't realize. They thought it was just, you know, no. fingerprints. And then by maybe watching. media mass media and reading about it, then they they they learned about it. That's why you when you have hostage. situations, you don't want mass media, you know, at a bank. So you have a. hostage situation. You don't want. cameras focusing in on what law. enforcement is doing because the bad.

guys may be looking at it from inside. the bank. So this may be the same. situation where they they were learning. on the fly and going, oh my gosh, if I. withdraw that Bitcoin, then they're. going to be able to trail me. That's a. possibility that has to be considered. that that's maybe why. um that they looked at it and and saying. that, okay, they they could lead to me. >> By the way, you keep saying they, kidnappers. Do you believe that there's multiple. people here? Like in other words, I've. seen this reporting, too. Are we to. believe that the bumbling guy on the.

porch is the same person that might have. been. trying to operate a sophisticated. crypto, you know, ransom operation? Um. do Do multiple people could potentially. be involved in this? >> Listen, I can't I you know as as a case. agent for 20 years in New Jersey, I. never say, you know, definitively it's. one person or it's 10 people. So, yes, I. would go down the pathway of saying this. is, you know, for me I would go down the. pathway of it's more likely than more.

than one person was involved. The odds. of one person pulling all of this off, it's possible. It is possible. But, I. think that the the the the lone wolf. actor, you know, he's using, you know, terrorism terms, the lone wolf actor is. the less likely option. I don't think. this is a crew of 10. I think that this. is, you know, a one two or three persons. who got together and said, "Oh, this is. pretty cool, you know, let's let's get. this. Let's get me a quick payday.". Um, but doing the, you know, I think one.

person, it's possible, but less likely. 10 people, unlikely. Unlikely because I think if it was a. large crew, then one of the people one. of those persons would have broken and. provided information on the person. >> Well, well, isn't that interesting. because we know that the note or notes. sent to TMZ were not from necessarily. the kidnapper or kidnappers. It was from. somebody who had information. And again, I go back to I've been reading all about. this case. There are some who believe. that could be somebody who's connected,

maybe uh a partner of some kind, a. relative, whatever it may be. And, you. know, that would somebody who has. information. And I am wondering now if. we're learning a little bit more about. the notes and we're learning a little. bit. about the motivations, is that something. that hasn't been fully explored that. should be explored, whether somebody is. going to come forward with information? You know, it's never too late. You hear. Savannah Guthrie making this plea on to. the Today show, somebody knows. something. Clearly, the public may have. the answers here. But, it does go back. to this idea of didn't it seem like.

somebody had information was willing to. come forward for the proper. >> Some of the best incentive. >> Yeah, some of the best in this country. are solved not by going after the main. actor, but going after secondary. individuals. I solved I captured a. fugitive. in in Mexico. I captured fugitive in. Mexico not by going after the fugitive, but by going after someone they were. communicating with here in the United. States. That's how I was able to get the. fugitive's location. I know that Whitey. Bulger They didn't capture Whitey.

Bulger. They didn't look Obviously his. name had been out in the you know, is it. 10 most wanted out of Boston? But they went after his his his female. companion. They put her on That's how. they found Whitey Bulger. So going after. a secondary target who may have less. attention or maybe making more mistakes, offering them a reward and say hey. listen we're not going after you. We're. going after the main target. So this is. a a tactic I'm sure that the you know, a. lot of the statements that Savannah. Guthrie put out, a lot of statements. that the Savannah's. family members put out, were not.

directed towards the the actor or actors. who you know, coordinated. It was it was. directed towards the secondary people. And then the amount of heat that came. onto them is saying listen, just come. forward. You know, we the main. kidnappers are cold-hearted. They're you. know, you know, we're we're going down. this pathway that they're they're you. know, expert, but they're not going to. be the ones. They made the decision to. do it. It's the secondary people who got. brought in or got roped in. Maybe those. people will break and feel a little bit. of sympathy and provide that information.

to Savannah. >> Daniel, you mentioned something at the. top about how you see colleagues, former. colleagues, members of FBI making. comments. I I got to ask you about this. So former FBI special agent Maureen. O'Connell went on Megan Kelly's show. Her radio show. And she said I think. they're getting close to the porch guy. And when they get the porch guy the. floodgates shall swing open. Now, citing. her own sources, she said she was 75%. confident that this. haunting figure who has eluded.

authorities for nearly 5 months would. soon be taken into custody. Why would she say that? What what. information do you think would lead her. to believe that? What would closing in. actually mean in practice? I mean, it's. a great thing to be thinking about, but. I'm curious. what might be you know, what how she. might know that. >> Listen, I'm not going to sit here and. and and and. you know, the smart you know, other. formers who go on other networks and. make statements like that and saying 75%.

they were going to they're getting. closer. She's not she's a retired FBI agent, okay? She does not have access to the. case files. Neither do I. And so I'm sure that for. if if for some reason she is talking to. the case team and they're telling her. information, that would be very surprising to me. because as an FBI agent, we were. hammered. You do not talk to media. As. an FBI agent, you have the public. relations, you have the you know, OPA, you know, office of public relations,

excuse me, OPR, and the the the you. never talk to media. If that information was being given out, I'd be very surprised that a case agent. would be so you know, flippant to be. like, oh yeah, no, I'm 75% there, we're. almost there, we're getting this. I. think this is her theory. I think it. could be a theory. Again, this is these are all my theories and I. don't have any direct information. I know how as a case agent I worked for. 20 years. I don't know her history. I. don't know her background.

But I I you know, most agents move up in. in the chain of command. So she's been a. part she's been away from maybe from. case work for 10, 15, 20 years. I've. been away for 3 years. So I know how it. kind of works on the in the field. Again, why she would say that, I don't. know. Maybe just to. create the you know, an image that that. things are getting closer and more. attention. There she could have access. to the case information. I'd be very. shocked if a case agent was speaking to. somebody from the media. One last thing before I let you go. This. is something I've wondered, something.

I've hoped for. I've seen cases before. where through genetic genealogy um. or through investigative work, they have. somebody in their sights. There's. somebody they suspect. And they start. scoping this person out and they're. waiting for them to discard something, a. straw, pizza box, whatever it is. They. grab it. They send it in for testing. Right? Match it up to potential forensic. material taken from the scene. It can take some time. Is there a. possibility that's happening right now? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's been.

from from And And here's where I go back. to derailing the the the investigation. that Kash Patel did. It derailed the. conversa the the the potential. for to get to track down the individual. A A someone who's in a position of a of. director or leader or president should. never impact the course of something. that is being done in the field. FBI. director should not be affecting. impacting the field investigations. He.

did by doing by putting by releasing. that video. It's not the only time he's. impacted investigations. He's not a good. director. He impacts the investigations. in the field. That's horrible. By doing. it through social media. By derailing. that, the case team had the possibility, let's find this individual. Let's get. close to him. Let's conduct. surveillance. The public doesn't need to. have the video until it is completely. squeezed. They could have determined a. location. They could have followed an. individual. They could have. surveillance. Collected like you said.

DNA evidence. By changing that course, they have now created it made it more. difficult to get close to an individual. who is sus who is a suspect. Doesn't. change the fact that they still could be. there. But it it's still yes, getting. DNA, conducting physical surveillance, old school, just follow the the. You know, course of life, pattern of. life. If there's DNA that the individual. left behind, I believe it's probable. that there is DNA evidence somewhere. there, hopefully. But it it is just a.

such a monumental task to find in a. house that little bit of evidence. But. who's the best? Evidence response team. by the FBI. Some of the best in the. world. They'll find it. And the. individuals, the surveillance team, hopefully when if they close in on this. individual, they'll they'll get the DNA. >> Hopefully that's what's happening. Uh. Daniel Bruner, I I really appreciate you. coming on. I've really enjoyed the. conversation. I wanted to talk about. this for a while. Um these are, you. know, really significant developments. Had to address them. Um but thank you so. much for taking the time.

>> My pleasure. >> And that's all we have for you right now. here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so. much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple. Podcast, [music]. Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. You can also check us out on NBC's. Peacock as well. >> [music]. >> If you want to follow me, X, Instagram, my NewsNation show, Jesse Watters. Primetime, Monday through Friday, 11:00. p.m. Eastern. See you next time, everybody.