Creepy Horrors Exposed in Peacock's 'Devil in Disguise: John Wayne Gacy'

Peacock's new show, Devil in Disguise, John Wayne Gasey, goes beyond the. infamous killer clown headline. But how. much of that story is true? How much of. it is embellished for TV? Well, to help. separate fact from fiction, we are going. to be speaking with Karen Ki. She's the. Chicago attorney who spent dozens of. hours with John Wayne Gasey during his. final death row appeals. Welcome to. Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm. Jesse Weber. Peacock's latest deep dive into true.

crime, Devil in Disguise, John Wayne. Gasey, is here and it is aiming to do. something very different from other. shows that have focused on killers or. serial killers or true crime. What is it. doing different? Well, according to the. show's summary on Peacock, this limited. series doesn't just focus on the. monstrous killer clown that we think we. know, but instead it quote peels back. the twisted layers of Gayy's life while. weaving in heart-trending stories of his. victims, exploring the grief, guilt, and. trauma of their families and friends and.

exposing the systemic failures, missed. opportunities, and societal prejudices. that fueled his reign of terror. In. fact, the show starring Michael Churnis. as Gayy promises a sensitive approach. And it's so sensitive, in fact, that. Churnis really only signed on to the. show after showrunner Patrick Mcmanis. promised that no murders would be shown. on screen. That is very different from. what we've seen in other programs, right? So, Churnis told Vanity Fair, "Absolutely, in no way did I want to be.

part of something that was glorifying. John Gayy." So, the series is about the. man. It's about the victims. It's about. the investigation. But of course, the. question becomes whenever we have a. program like this, how much of this. chilling story is true? What did the. show get right? What did the show get. wrong? Now, we're going to get into that. a little bit later on because we're. going to bring on Karen Ki, who's a. lawyer who represented Gayy during his. final death row appeal. She spent dozens. of hours with him, and we'll get insight.

into the real story of John Wayne Gasey. But first, let's just rewind to the. beginning, what we know about this. serial killer. Okay, picture Chicago in. the 1970s in the quiet suburb of Norwood. Park Township. John Wayne Gasey was the. guy that everyone seemed to know. He was. this successful building contractor, a. Democratic precinct captain, the guy who. even hosted neighborhood parties, and. famously he was this clown, Pogo the. clown, entertained kids at hospitals and. parades. But behind that friendly facade.

was a profoundly broken man. According. to multiple biographies that were. written about Gayy over the years, Gayy's childhood was a nightmare. His. father was a violent alcoholic who. constantly belittled him. He was also se. he was also allegedly sexually abused by. a family friend. A psychiatrist for his. defense later surmised that Gayy's. crimes were just a twisted reenactment. of his own childhood trauma as if he was. making his victims play the role of the. helpless child while he became the. punishing father. His violent.

tendencies, they started to surface. early. In 1968, while living in Iowa, he. was convicted of sodomy against a. teenage boy and sentenced to 10 years. He served only 18 months, by the way. His first wife divorced him shortly. after that. Biographers say he lost all. contact with his two young children. He. moved back to Chicago, bought this. ranchstyle house at 8213 West Somerdale. Avenue, started a new business, PDM. Contractors, even remarried. remarried. to a woman named Carol Hoff in 1972.

But that year also ended up being the. start of what would be a horrific crime. spree. From 1972 to 1978, authorities. say Gayy would lure young men and boys, often day workers, his own employees, people that he met at bus stations, to. his home, promises of work, promises of. money, and then he would use this. handcuff trick to restrain them, saying. it was part of a magic trick. In the. end, he would assault them and strangle. them. It's horrific. And according to.

the Chicago Tribune, his first known. victim was 16-year-old Timothy Jack. McCoy in 1972. His last is believed to. have been 15-year-old Robert Peace in. 1978. And it was Peace disappearance, by. the way, that finally brought this house. of cards tumbling down. On December. 11th, 1978, Peace told his mother that. he was going to speak to a contractor, John Gayy, about a job at the pharmacy. where he worked, but he never came back. His mother, Elizabeth, filed a missing.

person's report that night, triggering. an investigation that ultimately zeroed. in on Gayy. Police put him under. surveillance. They got a search warrant. and upon entering his house, they were. hit with this overwhelming, sickly. smell. They found a receipt for film. that belonged to a friend of peace, proving the boy had been inside. And. that's when it started coming down. On. December 21st, 1978, John Wayne Gasey. was arrested for handing a package of. marijuana to a gas station clerk while. under surveillance. And with him in.

custody, police tore into his house. They found a trap door to a crawl space. And that is when they discovered the. first of what would be 29 bodies buried. on his property. 26 in the crawl space, three elsewhere on the lot. When. questioned, Gayy confessed almost. proudly. He drew a map for police. detailing where the bodies were buried. He talked about himself in the third. person, blaming this alter ego named. Jack for the killings. He was charged.

with a total of 33 murders. His trial, as you can imagine, was just a media. circus. His lawyers argued he was. insane. The jury didn't buy it, though. After just two hours of deliberation, they found him guilty of all 33 murders. And on March 13th, 1980, he was. sentenced to death. He spent 14 years on. death row before being executed by. lethal injection on May 10th, 1994. And. to this day, five of his victims, they. remain unidentified. So, now that we've.

revisited the real history, now the. question is, what about Peacock's. version, right? What does devil in. disguise, John Wayne Gayy, what does it. get right? what is it? Maybe twist for. storytelling purposes. So to help us. sort through it, we have a special. guest. We are going to be speaking right. now with somebody who actually knew John. Wayne Gasey. We're joined by Karen Ki. She's a Chicago attorney who met with. Gayy dozens of times during his final. appeals. Wrote the book Killing Time. with John Wayne Gasey: Defending. America's Most Evil Serial Killer on. Death Row. Karen, thank you so much for.

coming here on Sidebar. Really. appreciate it. >> Pleasure to be here, Jesse. >> Now, I understand you watched the entire. series. Okay, this is you've spent, I. believe, over 50 hours with John Wayne. Gasey. So, big picture, let's start. here. What is the series get right about. his character, his demeanor, his. personality? Let's start there. >> I think they get it absolutely right. And of all the series that I have seen. over the years, uh, with the portrayals. of Brian Denah and William Foresight,

this actor, Michael Chernish, gets it. right. He has the demeanor. He has the. looks, he has the accent, and most. importantly, he has the vocabulary. And. when I say that, I mean that Gayy was. kind of a plain speaking street guy, but. he was full of uh braggadocia. He was um. a bullshitter, if I can say that. He was. a person who um was always in control, always manipulating. And even the words. he used were words that he used in real.

life. And I have tapes of him and I. actually went back and listened and I. thought, gosh, they got his phrasing. absolutely spoton. So if you want to. know what Gayy was like oneon-one, this. is the show to watch. >> Now obviously this is a story that we. wanted to bring to you. And the reason. that we can do this, the reason we can. cover things like this is not only. because of the amazing support that we. get from all of you out there, but also. from our incredible sponsor, Morgan and. Morgan. This is America's largest injury. law firm. This is a firm with over a.

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dollars, why not just start a claim and. fight for what you deserve, Morgan and. Morgan makes it so simple. You can start. a claim from your phone in just eight. clicks. So if you're injured, you can. easily start a claim at. forthepeople.com/lcsidebar. by clicking the link below or scanning. the QR code on screen. In other words, was he this charming. like salesmanlike figure that we see in. the show? >> Yeah, he was. But he alternated, you. know, he could be very charming. He. could be almost flirtatious. He could be.

um engaging. He was also very smart and. he didn't miss a beat. So, he could take. in what everybody's weaknesses were in. the room. He would ask you questions. that were very pointed and it wasn't. because he was interested. It was. because how was he going to use this. against you or to get what he wanted, which is a typical antisocial behavior. trait as far as and also a narcissist, which he was both. though. Um, he he was. brilliant at it, but he also had that. aspect where he was a know-it-all and.

you kind of didn't like him for that. reason. >> Did you get any sense of there's these. dark spots, right? Did you get ever a. sense of, oh, there's an opening to how. evil he was, or if somebody met him, they would have absolutely no idea. I. mean, were these were there these darker. openings, these signs? >> No, there really weren't. Um, you know, because everyone thinks that a person. who does these evil things has fangs or. is going to show his true colors. But I. will tell you, I sat with him knowing.

what he did, knowing what he did in. great detail, unfortunately for me. Uh, and just looking at him, I could not. reconcile the person I was talking to. with what I know he did. So, he hit it. He was a very compartmentalized person. And you did not I mean once in a while. you saw maybe a comment where he would. try to disparrage the victims and say. things like well what were they doing. out late at night anyway and they were a. bunch of hustlers but you saw that in. the in the theories where he really.

denigrated them like as if to say they. weren't worth living anyway. So that was. really the only glimpse that I ever saw. into how he really you know put put his. brain around this whole thing. In other. words, and I don't mean to put words in. your mouth, he never really showed any. kind of remorse. I mean, he had already. been on a death row for quite some time. when you met him. Never any sign of. remorse. >> None whatsoever. In fact, he uh he. thought of himself as a victim. Uh he.

absolutely thought of himself as a. victim. And and then you see in the. series where, you know, he's talking to. his lawyer at the trial level and he's. basically saying, "Oh, I killed this guy. in self-defense. Oh, this one wanted. money for me. Oh, this one did this to. me. And you know, 33 times, right? So, just it's surreal um to see that again. after all these years that he's been. gone do the same thing. >> I I want to get a little bit more into. specifics here and see what might be. true, what might there might have been.

some creative liberties. Um so, the. series opens with the disappearance of. Robert Past, right? this 15-year-old boy. whose vanishing, by the way, finally. unraveled Gasey's double life. All of. that true? I mean, that would be the one. that blew this whole case wide open, right? >> Yes. I think that was pretty accurate. I. don't see anything in that depiction. that was not accurate. The poor mother, it's her birthday, she she's going to. pick up her son, her beautiful. 15-year-old son who's trying to get a.

job and working at a a pharmacy. She's. in the parking lot. He's no He's not. there. She has no idea why AC took him, told him, you know, hey, we're going to. get you a job. And by the time she got. home, he was probably already being. tortured. Um, so yes, that was very. accurate. And Robert Past is the reason. that Gayy ultimately got caught and it. was the mother who pushed the issue to. make sure the cops went over there to. investigate it. And. >> and this is something Robert Peace um.

case that you write about quite vividly. uh in your book. What does Robert's. story mean to you personally? >> I have to tell you, you know, just. because I represented somebody who did. these horrible things. Uh doesn't mean. that I don't have compassion for the. victims. Of course I do. And I represent. victims all the time in different. matters. So um I for some reason there. was a connection with him. Uh I. represented Gayy, you know, when I was. just out of law school, but when he was. committing his crimes, I was in high. school. So he was the boogeyman growing.

up in Chicago. And I really for some. reason connected with with peace because. he was my age. He was the same year in. high school. He was a kid that you know. you would like to have dated, you know, and he just for some reason um he he. haunts me. Gayy doesn't haunt me. Uh. Gasey was never frightening to me, but I. just he I always felt like what could I. have done to save this kid? I know that. sounds ridiculous, but you know, could. could that have been prevented? Could. that boy's life have been saved? And you.

know, it's just something that haunts. me. >> No, I I understand. By the way, what was. it like to to represent him and what. were the legal arguments that you were. making? We'll get a little bit more into. uh the case, but what was it like to. represent him and what were your. arguments? >> Well, it it was a losing case. Spoiler. alert. You know, it didn't end well, but. um you know, at the very end when he has. a death date set, you are out of all. traditional appeals. all the appeals. that you have over 14 years are gone. So. now you're you're doing your hail.

maryries and you know basically we said. that you know you couldn't use the. lethal injection machine because it it. was a failed uh method of execution. which it did fail with Gayy. Um we used. all kinds of arguments about the jury. instructions about him not getting a. fair trial. You know all the things that. that we kind of rehashed but came up. with new arguments. We knew it was going. to be a tough one, but I will tell you. part of the reason that I represented. Gayy um was because I'm against the. death penalty. And when you represent. somebody on death row, you're kind of.

making an argument for the rest of the. people on death row who might have. really good defenses like actual. innocence, etc. So, you're kind of. setting a precedent hopefully to help. other people on death row um you know, be exonerated. And we in Illinois we had. 12 exonerations and 12 executions within. a certain number of years period. So we. weren't getting it right at all. >> Was John Wayne and Gayy nervous about. being put it to death? >> Not at all. >> In fact uh when I I was the one who had.

to tell him that the US Supreme Court. had turned down his very last appeal and. he couldn't be bothered with it. He he. was uh making jokes to me saying that uh. one of the justices descented he said. you make sure that you send him a thank. you note from John Gasey and he told me. you know your name is in your orbituary. the name is your my name is going to be. in your obituary and he was bragging to. the end. He was not nervous. I I almost. thought that he didn't really get what.

was going to happen to him. Um but I. told him what was going to happen. I. told him when it was going to happen. I. told him how it was going to happen. and. he did not seem nervous at all. >> I want to just go back to something with. Robert Peace for a second. So, his. mother, Elizabeth, uh is shown filing. this $85 million lawsuit against the. people that she felt had failed her son. and others. That lawsuit actually. happened. >> It did. uh it was dismissed and as you.

know it's very difficult to sue. authorities uh because uh the government. has qualified immunity meaning it's you. have to prove something more than. negligence and her lawsuit basically. blamed uh the Iowa prison system because. as the film shows uh he was incarcerated. in Iowa for sodomizing a young man and. was released very early got a 10-year. sentence and was released in 18 months. and she said that basically you should. never have done that. And all of the. psychiatric reports that he was going to.

be a menace to society and guess what, right? So, um, unfortunately for her, uh, all of those that lawsuit was. dismissed. >> I can understand why why she filed it, though. I mean, you know, you're a. victim family member. It's tough to. reconcile this. And by the way, going. back to the execution. So, the series. does something interesting. It shows. that Gayy's uh victim's family, he's. talking about them, were essentially. misled about witnessing his execution. because essentially they're placed in a. room led to believe they'd witnessed his.

execution and then they realize that it. would already happened. Um, is that. true? >> That's the one piece that I think is. absolutely false. And and here's why. >> The the there were so many victims, right? There's 33 young men and boys and. the press wanted to be in on it. I. wanted to be there. I wasn't allowed to. be there as his defense lawyer. So, they. had to limit the number of people. So, they had a lottery of all things. And. you had to pick a number. And this was. all done before the execution, well.

before the execution. And so, the people. that were in that room were largely. media people with a few victims family. members. So the idea that they didn't. know ahead of time that they weren't. going to get to witness it is is not. true. >> Uh and and why do I mean where did that. even come from? I mean where do you. think they even you know how did that. even come to be? >> Well I think from an artistic standpoint. you see in this that the victims over.

the years I mean these boys were being. killed. They were working for Gayy. They. were last seen with Gayy. Uh they were. the police were ignoring the parents'. calls. One parent called a hundred times. to say Gasey was last seen with my son. They didn't want anything to do with it. He was sodomizing young boys. He was. being arrested. The charges were. dropped. I mean, it was just a. nightmare. So, I think what the um the. producers and the directors were trying. to show is that the victims got the raw. end of the deal here at the beginning.

during the time that they should have. been, you know, uh had their their young. men um their cases investigated, but. also at the end that they didn't even. get to see Gayy executed, which they. desperately wanted to do for some. closure or whatever closure. So I think. they took a little license with that but. you know they were denied the. opportunity but I think they knew about. it ahead of time. >> Right. Talk about the victims. One of. very disturbing detail uh that's. mentioned in the series is this. so-called handcuff trick. So the show.

kind of explains it the way Gayy. described it to investigators convincing. his victims to restrain their wrists. before killing them. Is that accurate? >> That is accurate. Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. He would he would it it. would be a joke. He'd say, "Hey, this is. the handcuffed trick. He'd do it on. himself and he'd say, "Okay, look, I got. out of it right now. You try it. >> and the poor kid would put the handcuffs. on." And the trick was that he now had. them under control. So, um, you know,

and that's how he had to do it because. Gayy wasn't a big guy. And in fact, he. was about 5'8, 5'9. He wasn't a. particularly strong guy. And some of. these young men were, you know, were. they were young and they were um, you. know, they could have fought him off had. they not been handcuffed. So, yeah, that. is true. >> And as you try to make sense of this. these crimes and what he did, there's. this we hear this fictionalized Gayy. like this referring to this darker. version of himself, this other side,

Jack Hanley. Is that something a name. that he ever mentioned to you? This. alter ego, anything like that? So by the. time I represented him, he was very. institutionalized and he had come up. with his um view on on how he wanted to. be uh viewed. So he um he never talked. to me about that stuff. I read probably. 14 inches of psychiatric reports and. some of the shrinks said yes I do. believe that he had this dual. personality almost a schizophrenic type.

of thing where he'd go into this Jack. Hanley mode who was a police officer and. he was there to kind of help the boys. but then the boys got in his car and and. then you know then he was the good John. who was the family man and who was the. hardworking business guy. Um I'm not. sure I would buy into the idea that he. had a split personality. I think he had. a dark side. I think that some of the. boys um who escaped said something came. over his eyes. He had have this dark. look, this vacant look when he went into. his torture mode. And I believe you hear.

that from other people who are victims. of killers and rapists. So, um a split. personality, no, but definitely two. different sides to who he was. >> What do you think drove him to do it? >> Yeah, isn't that the great question? And. that was one of the things that I. thought about hours and hours and I. still think about and you know I think. it's both nature and nurture. You know. he grew up in a very traditional. 1940s50s home where the dad went to work. and mom was kind of passive and the.

father was an alcoholic and the father. beat him. There's no question about. that. But a lot of people come from that. environment and don't kill 33 boys. So I. think he knew at a young age that he was. a homosexual. I think that he was raised. in a strict Catholic family and back. then homosexuality was not uh you know. was not accepted and he tried to deny. who he was and I think he confused. sexuality with violence and I think that. maybe what he was doing is every time he. killed a young man who he thought might.

be a homosexual he was killing a part of. himself. >> That's what I think. >> It's an interesting perspective. Um no. it's interesting thinking about it like. that. You know, when people think of. John Wayne Gasey, it's the clown angle. That's a big part of this. I want to. dissect that a little bit because the. series shows Gayy performing as this. party clown, marching in parades, making. balloon animals, visiting children's. hospitals. He's basically hiding this. darker side. I mean, the show they said. he basically says putting on the clown. makeup was as relaxing as drinking. How.

accurate was the portrayal of the clown. angle in this uh program? >> I thought it was very accurate. Uh Gasey. was very proud of his clowning. And just. to be clear for your viewers, I he never. picked up a a boy when he was in his. clown getup. Okay? So obviously, I mean, people wouldn't probably go into a car. with a guy dressed as a clown. He just. did this on the side. And I think there. were a couple things. I think it made. him look like a good guy, and he liked. to look like a good guy, a charitable. person who donated his time. I also.

think it did mask that dark side of him. And I think it allowed him to get away. with doing things that maybe weren't be. wouldn't be acceptable. And there's a. piece in this series where he talks. about how he's in his clown suit and he. gets to grab women and do all kinds of. stuff because he's anonymous. And I. think that Gayy enjoyed that part of it, that mask that allowed him and his. darker side to be covered up while he. did his uh his his bad evil thoughts, I. guess. >> Yeah. He supposedly said, "Clowns can.

get away with murder." Right. And that's. an interesting part because the show. highlights how there was this police. bias towards young men, particularly gay. men, that allowed Gayy to continue. killing for years. I mean, in your. opinion, is that true? Was there a a. systemic bias, a prejudice playing into, you know, gay evading capture for some. time? Did the series get that part. right? >> I think it really got it right. I I. think that for the first time it it. really is focusing on the you know the.

law enforcement not believing the. victims or not caring about the victims. And remember it was a different time. Homosexuality got you fired from a job. In some places it was still illegal. So. the police really were dismissive of a. lot of these boys. And Gayy did a great. job of telling the police, oh that kid. was a runaway. Oh, he was a hustler. He. was gay. You know, rough horse play. That's just what these kids do. you. know, he was very good and the police. believed him because he was an.

upstanding um person in the community. who was politically connected and, you. know, was making good money and he uh he. convinced them that these kids were not. worth investigating. And I think uh it's. really sad and I think that we need to. keep that in mind as we see people. commit crimes and not to further. victimize the victims based upon their. circumstances. >> Yeah. And and by the way, when Gayy was. finally arrested in December 1978, detectives discovered what, 26 bodies.

under his house. I mean, just steps from. his neighbor's windows. And by the way, actor Michael Churnis told uh Chicago's. WBEZ that the set was built to look. quote like any other neighborhood near. an airport. Tidy, ordinary, terrifying. in hindsight. You know, Karen, the show. highlights how Gayy, and you mentioned. this was so woven into his community, volunteering, hosting parties, even. meeting First Lady uh Rosalyn Carter, um. all of that was authentic, right? You. right. I mean, all of that was an.

accurate portrayal of what was going on. >> Absolutely. And you know, the idea that. he was standing next to Rosalyn Carter. when he had a conviction for sodomy and. the the Secret Service didn't pick up on. any of it. I mean, he slipped through so. many cracks that, you know, that would. be a great book in and of itself and how. he got away with all the things that he. did. And again, one other thing I should. mention at the time, you know, when boys. went missing, there wasn't a a like a a. a database, you know, that connected,

hey, there's a boy missing here. There's. a boy missing here. In fact, the Chicago. police, even among their precincts, weren't connected when it came to. paperwork. And that's what it was, paperwork. No computers at the time. So. Dplaines had a whole different, you. know, view of Gayy because they weren't. investigating anything that the Chicago. police should have been investigating. So I think if this were to happen today, we'd have a different outcome. I hope. because of the connectedness of how we. have our databases now. >> and social media. In other words, it.

would be very difficult for him to be. able to, you know, the cell phone. surveillance. It'd be very hard for him. to commit these crimes today. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And and I think. we know more about serial killers. I. think the idea that he was incarcerated, I got a 10-year sentence in Iowa should. have been a red flag. I mean, he would. have been a sex offender. He would have. had to register. Everyone in the. neighborhood would have known who he was. and what he did. So, yeah, it was a. different time. And uh and and you know, you look at the changes and and those.

changes are obviously very good and. that's why you're seeing fewer serial. killers. >> I I want to talk real quick about the. lawyers. So, the show depicts Gayy's. defense attorney, uh, Sam Amaranti, as. torn between this kind of professional. duty and this moral disgust, but still. being drawn essentially to the notoriety. of this. You think that was accurate? >> Absolutely accurate. Uh, I know, Sam, and I know, and I will say this, everybody who's been associated with.

Gayy from a legal standpoint has done. well in their careers, and I'll put. myself in that in that bucket, too. Uh. Bill Kungl the prosecutor went on to. become a great judge. He had a great. legal career in a big law firm. Terry. Sullivan uh wrote a book. He also had a. great career. Uh you know people are. fascinated by your association. So they. put you on a pedestal for no good reason. other than you're associated with a. horrific crime. Makes no sense, but you. see that all the time in with celebrity. uh lawyers. Yes. Sam Amiranti when he.

sat through that confession there was a. scene there a couple scenes where Gayy. was drinking heavily and that's where he. confessed to Sam and Sam to this day is. shaken to the core by listening to the. details of the crimes because Gayy had. an excellent memory and he was very. visual and he could recount exactly. where he was, where he picked up the. boys, what they look like, sometimes. their names, what their souvenirs were, what he did to them and that was. traumatic. IC to Sam, but Sam was also a.

true believer that everyone is entitled. to a defense. So, I think it did capture. it, Jesse. I think it he did the the. show did a good job. >> And how has it affected your life, your. career representing him at one point in. time? >> Well, at the time it was terrible. I. mean, you know, uh clients quit me and I. got death threats. Um so, uh but. afterward it was more like I was a. novelty. It's like, hey, she represented. John Gasey. It's like that's disgusting, but what was it like? right? Everyone's.

interested in what it was like. So, uh, I used that to to my advantage. Of. course, I did. I went and I taught law. school. I taught the death penalty, which was a great thing to do. Um, you. know, I' I've done a lot of legal. commentary. I have a radio show in. Chicago because I got used to talking to. the press. Um, I wrote a book. Um, and. so, you know, I think it has been really. good for my career, strangely. Um, I. wouldn't suggest that to young lawyers, go out and represent a serial killer, but but it made me resilient, too. It. made me immune from people saying bad.

things about me, disparaging me. Even to. this day, after this is aired, I'm sure. I'll get my hate mail from all over the. world. And um and I've learned to just. take it. >> Well, no, look, you're you're an. excellent attorney and you've developed. this expertise, you know, unfortunately, about a certain class of people. And. which is interesting because and correct. me if I'm wrong, you have drawn. comparisons between John Wayne Gasey and. Rex Yerman, right? the Gilgo Beach. serial killer, the Gilgo Beach suspect. here. What are those parallels for. people who don't know?

>> Yeah. I mean, first of all, uh Gayy was. a family man just like Rex Heramman. Uh. Gasey was in construction. Um Rex Herman. was in uh an architect. They both lived. in around um a large city, New York, for. um the Gilgo Beach Killer, Gayy Chicago. And they both targeted um people who. weren't going to be missing. Not all of. them because you know Rob P was a was a. kid whose family was very connected. I. think he just got sloppy there. But a.

lot of the people that Gayy bound were. runaways. People at a Greyhound bus. station, maybe people who didn't have. any money, so they were hustling uh sex. Um so and and we know the Gilgo Beach. murder went undetected because all of. his victims were sex workers. And you. know, they were disappearing all in that. same area. yet nobody was doing anything. about it. The other thing that's a. parallel is in the Gilgo Beach case, if. you really get into it, there was some. corruption going on in the local police. department in the prosecutor's office.

And I'm not saying there was corruption. going on in Chicago, but Chicago was. just was just messing this up. Wasn't. doing what it was supposed to be doing. even given the time. So I think you have. this this um very similar just he he. would stalk his victim victims. He chose. them carefully. I think um there's so. many parallels here. >> Yeah. Before we wrap things up, just big. picture here. As you look back on this. show, um you said it's it seems mostly.

accurate, particularly its depiction of. Gayy, you mentioned that the execution, certain aspects of it were were some. creative liberties. Was there anything. else about it that you felt stretched. that was overly dramatized? That were. things that you know what, that wasn't. exactly true? Um, as we look back on it, were there certain aspects of this that. you said, I I I I think that this is. just inaccurate. I want to clear the. record. >> I don't think there was anything. exaggerated. And that's why I think it. was a good piece because you really. didn't see the violence. You know, we.

they could have put the violence in. there, but we don't need to see that. We. know this was focused on the victims. I. do think that the victim's piece where. they had the kids before Gasey abducted. them, have relationships and have jobs. and have aspirations and made mistakes. and and and I think some of that. probably was fictionalized because how. would they know? They they probably. don't know. Um but I think it added to. the the idea that these weren't just. boys with with their face, you know, on. a on a podium in in a courtroom. These.

were kids who who had things to do in. their lives and parents who cared about. them. And I think that even if that was. fictionalized, it added to it added to. the importance of of this series. >> Well, Karen, listen, I really really. appreciate you taking the time to come. on here and trying to separate fact from. fiction uh and explain a little bit more. of your experience with John Wayne. Gasey. And if anybody's interested, again, I encourage them to take a look. at your book, Killing Time with John. Wayne Gasey. Karen Ki, thank you so. much. Really appreciate it.

>> It's a pleasure, Jesse. Take care. >> And that's all we have for you right now. here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so. much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple. Podcast, Spotify, wherever you should. get your podcast. You can follow me on X. or Instagram. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll. speak to you next time.