‘Cowards’: Dad of Slain Idaho Student Criticizes Investigators, Reveals Autopsy Information

uh sometimes when uh new information. [music] comes forward uh the people that. we've spoken to beforehand may have new. insight on that. So it it does often. seem like we're backtracking, but we're. really just trying to get the most. important [music] details and the best. timeline that we can come up with. A father of one of the students killed. in the University of Idaho quadruple. murder case reveals alleged new details. from the coroner. Forensic death. investigator Joseph Scott Morgan reacts.

and explains. [music] Welcome to. Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm. Jesse Weber. At first, when we heard in the news, I was so angry [gasps]. that she was taken away. All these. special people, and you never think it's going to happen. to your family. And then I had to sit back through my. tears. and realize that I really was blessed. I.

was fortunate to have Zanna live with me. for a couple years. We continue to follow the University of. Idaho quadruple murder case. It's the. killings of 21-year-old Kaylee Gonzalez, 21-year-old Madison Mogan, 20-year-old. Zana Kernodal, and 20-year-old Ethan. Chapen. Their bodies found in their. off-campus home out in the college town. of Moscow. These killings happened four. weeks ago and at the time of this. recording, no arrests have been made, no. suspect identified and no murder weapon.

recovered. But there is something that. we have to talk about and that are the. and those are the new statements from. Steven Gonz. Mr. Gonzalez, for anybody. who's been following this case, has been. quite vocal with the media about this. investigation since the news broke about. the killing of his daughter, Kaye. In. fact, he would reveal certain things. that we weren't entirely sure the. authorities wanted him to share. and now. he is coming out with more information. regarding the wounds and he's doing this. in an interview with Fox News Digital.

So, let me bring in right now my good. friend, forensic death investigator from. Jacksonville State University, Joseph. Scott Morgan, who is also the host of. the Body Bags podcast. Joseph, it's good. to see you and thanks for coming on. again. Good to see you, brother. How you doing? So, before we get into the wounds and. the revelations about the wounds, I want. to start here. So Steven Gonzalez told. Fox News that he spoke with the coroner. Kathy Mabbat. Apologies if I. mispronounced her last name. First off, before we get into the wounds, is it.

typical for a coroner to share this. information with a parent of a victim? It it depends upon the case. And yeah, I. mean, I've I've certainly, you know, in. my past working as a medical legal death. investigator have shared. uh, you know, some of the intimate. details when asked specifically about. it. However, I will say this. If there. has ever been a multiple homicide case. that I have worked, I I've never done a.

compare and contrast relative to. injuries that other victims have. sustained. uh to the wounds that say the immediate. family is asking me about about one. victim. That's very bad form and I I. can't imagine any any corner doing that. I I'm going to get into that the. comparison between Kaylee and the. others, but this is what Steven Gonalves. told Fox News about what was told to him. by the coroner. He says, she says, "Sir,

I don't think stabs is the right word. It was like tears, like this was a. strong weapon, not like a stab." She. said, "These things were big open. gouges." She said it was quick. These. weren't something where you were going. to be able to call 911. They were not. going to slowly bleed out. What do you make of that? I've never heard I've never heard. verbiage like that from anyone in the in. the medical legal field. And I'll tell. you why. Wait, does does that does that mean that. he might be getting it wrong or that.

there's something if if a coroner told. this to him, something's off? Yeah, some something would be off. And. you know, I don't know, maybe he's not. quite understanding what's being said, but he's using very specific language. there. Uh, Jesse, tears. Let's just break it down real quick. All. right. When you're using an edged. weapon, tearing is not something that's. associated with that. Okay. Tearing. creates this where you have uh.

connective tissue or you have tissue. bridging. Most of the time that's cons. that's connected with lacerations and. lacerations are you know associated with. blunt force trauma. That's the coroner's. never mentioned anything about blunt. force trauma. So I don't know if he's. misunderstanding, misremembering, or. just misstating. I I I don't know. But I. do know this with you have two choices. with sharp force injuries. You either. have stabs, okay?

Or uh you have insized wounds, which are. slices. Slices are longer than they are. deep. stabs are deeper than they are. long. That's really your only two. choices. Now, kind of an outlier in all. of this is something we refer to as. puncture wounds, which doesn't look. anything like a stab wound. They're. generally, you know, kind of uh circular. in shape. Uh you see them with like. people that have been stabbed with. shanks, homemade shanks in prisons or.

people that are impaled on rebar, that. sort of stuff. Now, this tearing it it. just it doesn't add up to me. It doesn't. make sense whatsoever. But but we've been under the impression. that it was a fixed blade knife that was. used. Some there was reporting that it. was a Rambo style knife. There was. questions if it was a KBAR style knife. He said, Steven Gonzalez, that the knife. slashed open Kaye Gonzalez's liver and. lungs. Um, again, so are we think are we.

thinking it's the wrong weapon based on. this or are we still the conclusion it's. a knife, but the characterization is a. bit off? Well, I'm well, first off, uh. I'm very sorry for this man's loss, but. he's not the person I'm going to go to. uh for an analysis of injuries. Um I'm. still waiting to hear from the medical. examiner who I think is or the forensic. pathologist who was contracted to do. these examinations over in Spokane. All. right. Corer, just so everybody knows, the corner is not an MD here. She's not.

certainly not a forensic pathologist. She didn't do these. These bodies would. have been transferred over there. Um, I. I don't understand from, you know, the. genesis of a lot of this uh u. information that he's putting out there. It doesn't make sense. And and keep in. mind as well early on, do you remember. back I think that uh the corner actually. had a sitdown interview with our friend. Ashley Banfield early on and she was the. first person to get get to uh uh get to.

the corner and Ashley asked very. specifically in that interview. She. said, "Were any of these victims. slashed?" You know, because that goes to. another part of criminal profiling and. all that sort of stuff. The coroner. definitively said no. She said these. were stab wounds and they at least had. one fatal stab wound that she could. identify. Now, she talked about the. coroner framed it in this sense where. she talked about the chest. Okay. All. right. He's saying this father is saying.

liver. Liver ain't the chest. Okay. As a. matter of fact, it's way south. You're. talking about below the rib cage. essentially on the right aspect of of. the abdomen. So I I don't I don't really. know um you know how they came to that. conclusion. It that doesn't make sense. And again using this term and I think. using the term the liver was slashed. That's not what you would have in this.

case. It would be a stab. Remember I. gave the description of an incized wound. just a moment. This is not an insized. wound. This is a stab wound. Okay. What do you make of when he says, like. you mentioned, that Kayle's wounds do. not match to Mogan's wounds. So, he said. they may have individually died from the. exact same thing, being stabbed, but. there are more details. They're not even. close to matching. Again, do you think that this is a. situation where perhaps he's.

misunderstanding what the coroner is. saying, or is the coroner maybe get. providing conclusions that the coroner. should not be making at this point? Well, my default position again with. this Jesse is is what does the forensic. board certified forensic pathologist say. about it? Because. because it wait and just to be clear, it. is possible he's right. It is possible that he is right. I would. assume. Uh however, what does he where. what's the genesis for this? You know,

how does he how does he assess. that these injuries are different? Did. he see this other victim's body? Was he. the one drawing this conclusion? I doubt. that that's the case. So, is he saying. that the coroner sat there and said, "Your child's injuries are so much more. worse than any other victim." That's. what I have a real problem with here. Uh, first off, I don't know how accurate. that is. And secondly, and I think. bigger, it it's very disrespectful to. these other victims. Very disrespectful.

to these victims and their families to. say this. Um, right now we we don't know. what the status of the injuries are. It's been very non-specific relative to. defensive injuries, who sustained the. defensive injuries, what the location of. these so-called defensive injuries are, that sort of thing. So, you know, right. now we're just kind of getting snatches. from him. And I don't I don't know the. genesis of the information he is he is. relating. Well, he said also that the coroner told. him that these victims in general died.

quickly and didn't suffer. He said he's. not convinced. Um, in fact, he says it. was a hell of a battle going on down. there from what the coroner told us. Again, I give yet your response from. Yeah. And again, how do you make that. assessment? Um, this is this is not like. a a one-off event where you have a. single perpetrator on a single victim. This is highly dynamic. I've mentioned. the term, you know, comingling relative. to to evidence and a lot of that has to. do with proximity. Uh, but let me throw.

out another term to you. It's it's. called co-sleeping. And so you've got. two victims. Well, both sets of victims. are actually co-sleeping with one. another. So, you're telling me that in, I don't know, in the darkness or. whatever the lighting situation was, that this individual, the perpetrator, this monster, came out of the dark and. was able to identify this specific. individual and target her because that's. what's being employed here, that she was. specifically targeted. Ergo that what.

how this is demonstrated is the fact. that her injuries were so much more. robust than any other injuries that. anybody might have had. I just don't see. how he's arriving at that conclusion. He says he has his own suspicions about. what may have happened. He's not. revealing at this point. What did you. make of this comment where again he says. the coroner told him that the. perpetrator was a strong individual, but. we know that police haven't identified, you know, any suspect of the suspect's. gender. He came out and said, Steve.

Gonzalez, I got outraged by them not. just coming out and saying this was a. woman or a man because they should know. by the amount of strength it took to. deliver the injuries. They're just being. cowards. There are girls walking around. the street right now that deserve to. know. They should be looking out for a. sadistic male. What do you think? Wow. He's into profiling now. Okay. Yeah, that that's that's inappropriate. He should not be saying that at all. You don't think the coroner gave him any. indication about it? I I don't know what. she gave him, but he should not be the. mouthpiece for it in putting that.

information out there. Um, you know, for. all I know, this individual probably is. a satist. I I have no idea how to. measure that. But how are you going to. measure strength as well? I mean, I. think that we can probably agree um that. it would have taken some level of. strength, particularly with the first. victims, um, and willpower in order to. bring this about. you know, you're gonna. because you're fighting two individuals. at the time. I go back to this idea of. co-sleeping in in this context. You've.

got two victims that are there before. you if you're the perpetrator and you're. attacking both of them with a knife. Again, I don't see how you can be. targeting someone, specifically. physically targeting someone, and you're. having to fend off both individuals. because we don't know anything about the. sequencing of death at this point. either. Keep that in mind. That's very. important here because we don't know. anything about the post-mortem interval. They still don't have this timeline. figured out as well.

We have ideas about it, right, based. upon the house and and who was killed. Before I have to let you go, Joseph, we. have about a minute left. I want to ask. you real quick about that there. Uh it. it seems that it's being reported that. the hands of the victims have all been. bagged at the scene in an effort to. preserve possible DNA evidence. So that. their hands were bagged up. Is that. common? And what could we find from. that? And how long would it take to get. results? Okay, first off, yeah, it's. very common um to to bag hands. In the. past, we've just used brown st not. sterile, but clean brown paper bags and.

you tape them on the hands. Now, they. they literally have these kind of. all-encompassing little bags that have a. drawstring and kind of again, bear with. me. Let me break it down, tell you how. it works. You bag the hands very. carefully because there's a tremendous. amount of trace evidence. One of the. reasons you bag the hands is that this. is kind [clears throat] of a logistics. issue. when bodies are being moved from. one location and certainly if you're. talking about traveling all the way from. this location to Spokane which is where. the bodies would have been examined.

there's a lot of jostling so things fall. off it's very fragile when you remove. these bags are removed very carefully. Jesse and so anything that's contained. in them they'll be sealed up and. individually labeled and sent to the. crime lab for examination now. they're also protecting anything that's. contained under the nails. You've heard. me, you and I have talked many, many. times over the years about nail. scrapings and nail clips, skin, any kind. of blood, anything like that's going to. be contained. And also, because this was.

apparently a pretty bloody scene, it's. amazing how much hair will contact and. stick to hands. I find that more. frequently than just about any other. kind of evidence. Hair from from. perpetrator and sometimes hair from the. victim, too, because it's so dynamic. How long's the turnaround? Uh, it's not. surprising. First off, here we are. We're past we're past that that marker. in time of four weeks now. Um I am u. sure that at least the evidence that is.

gleaned from the victims is at a point. where they've almost assessed it. They've collected all of the DNA that. they possibly could and now it's just. about running the numbers relative to it. to try to determine whose DNA is there. And what you're looking for is when you. go through this process of uh this. perpetration of this butchery, person A, okay, is going to have their. DNA and possibly the perpetrators. But.

as you move to B, you'll take, if. they're using the same weapon, you're. taking the same weapon that has been. dipped into the blood to A, then to B, then to C, then to D, so forth. So. you've got multiple transfers. It. becomes very layered. Not to mention all. the touch DNA as well. Forensics tell so much of the story. We. see that all the time in the cases we. cover and maybe we'll see it here as. well. By the way, before we let. everybody go, anybody with information, they're asked to call the tip line at. 2088837180.

You can email uh tiplineci.mosco.id. us. And also you can submit uh digital. tips at fbi.gov/moscow. Idaho. Joseph Scott Morgan, thank you so. much for taking the time. It was a. really interesting discussion. You bet, buddy. And that's all we have for you here on. Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much. for joining us here. Please subscribe on. Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm. Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next.

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