Cornell Jane Doe & Frat Bro's Secret Texts Exposed: Report

New Jane Doe texts have been revealed in. the alleged Cornell rape case. Ranging. from a reference to drug use on a body. part to sexual self- autonomy to a. memory of what happened to accusations. defenses. These texts you have to. imagine will play a crucial role in the. ongoing investigation. Let's break it. down. Welcome to Sidebar presented by. Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. More apparent messages have come out in. the Cornell alleged rape scandal. And.

the question becomes, how does this. affect Jane Doe's credibility, the. strength of a potential prosecution, the. civil case that she's filed? And before. I get into the messages, I just want to. put them into a timeline here and. context because that's going to be. crucial. Now, when we talk about it, let's just go back. So, the alleged. incident occurred on the night of. October 19th, 2024 at the KiFi. fraternity house at Cornell University. There is an anonymous woman, a student, sorority sister, Jane Doe, who claims. that after being served alcohol at a.

bar, she was apparently underage to. drink at the time. She went to this. fraternity house to see a friend at. around 11 p.m. Now, while it seems that. she initially claimed that she had a. consensual sexual encounter with two men. at the house, she alleges that it became. non-consensual when she was allegedly. drugged and then raped by multiple men. there. Now, a key piece of evidence. that's come out is that beginning at. around 1:42 a.m. on October 20th, there. was an alleged conversation in the Ki. Chapter Snapchat group that was shared.

with nearly 60 frat brothers and. referenced a woman upstairs in the house. being free, seemingly for sexual. activity. And there was another alleged. message saying like, "You can walk in. and whip it out, RN." ABC News also. reported that a Kyif Fry brother who's. accused of inviting Jane Doe over that. night apparently sent a photo to this. group chat that appears to show this. woman in the bedroom. So I want to get. into the conversations here. One of the. Ki members who has been identified as.

Jonathan seemingly ends up texting Jane. Doe two days later October 21st. Now I'm. going to read you this message in its. entirety and this is from TMZ. They. reportedly obtained copies of these. apparent leaked messages. Quote, "Hey, Redacted. This is Jonathan. Redacted. gave me your number. I just wanted to. apologize for how things went down the. other night. My memory is kind of fuzzy. about a lot of it, but me and Matt both. feel like bleep for being too bleeped up.

to shut it down and kick people out. before it got way out of hand. You're an. amazing person, and I genuinely hope. you're not catching as much heat from. this as we are. We've been shutting down. any stories we've heard, but again, I'm. so so sorry. Now, you might have heard a. little bit about this, but this is now. more the fuller message. So, now this. appears to be Jane Do's response. Quote, "Oh, Jonathan, I really appreciate this. text. My memory is super clouded, too. I. think we were all way too bleeping, drunk, and high. I'm getting a little.

heat. Pi girls redacted and redacted. can't get my name out of their mouth, but that's to be expected. But at the. end of the day, none of the sexual stuff. was illegal. And honestly, I really. liked being with you and Matt. So, anything anyone has to say about the. gang bang is out of their jurisdiction. I don't think we should feel any shame. for the part. Our body, our choice, ASF. goes on, also. Yes, while it may have. been nice for like only four people to. have been around, you all were both.

super out of it, and they should have. taken it on themselves to leave. At the. end of the day, you, Matt, and I were in. your bed and they didn't need to get up. in that. But if you have any regrets or. anything you want to talk about, I am. always here to talk about it because. that was a lot. I really do love you and. Matt and I promise I won't get quiet and. weird with you like I did last time. And. to be clear, we don't know what that's. in reference to. But then there's this. Jane Doe appears to write, quote, "PS.

I'm not sure if you remember, but I did. K so seemingly ketamine off your bleep. at some point, and I honestly think that. was one of the most insane, jaw-dropping. moments of the night. Now, this text is. seemingly referencing a male body part, put two and two together. There was. another exchange where he appears to. write, and this is seemingly in response. to that, quote, "I'm just glad you're. okay. I was kind of upset with all the. stories going around earlier, but at the.

end of the day, that's all they are. And. and I have no memory of that last part. with a crying face emoji. She reportedly. responds, "Oh, Jesus, not the stories. I. don't even think I want to know. I know. I'm socially a massive slut right now, and I can't bear to hear it because I'm. really not." And then she adds, "Insane, truly." So maybe that's in reference to. the, you know, the ketamine text from. before. So yes, this is some new. messages that we didn't know, you know,

the full conversation. And then I go to. a few weeks later, November 3rd, where. she appears to write him, let's be. clear, that 90% of what happened that. night was not consensual. I was given. more key, maybe ketamine, than I can. remember, and I know that I had told you. I felt uncomfortable and I didn't know. anyone in the room. All I remember after. that was you giving me cat to do off. your bleep in front of everyone like a. sex dolly worker. And he reportedly. responds, "Had I been less bleeped up.

and even somewhat aware of the situation. and how out of hand it got, I would have. shut it down the second guys started. walking in the room." All right, real. quick. I got to say something. The flu. and cold season is like right around the. corner. Everybody starts getting sick. So, there becomes a question. How do you. protect yourself? How do you boost your. immune system? Well, we got something. that might be able to help you out. It's. cowboy colostrum. Okay, what I have. right here is the highest quality boine. colostrum available in the entire United. States. What's colostrum? It is the.

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person referenced again as Matt in the. reported text between Do and Jonathan. Newell. Again, has been identified in. the media. October 23rd. So this is 4. days after the alleged assault. do. appears to text Matt, quote, "Bro, everyone knows," and then there seems to. be a peace emoji. "I'm incredibly. stressed out. Some random bleep told. some of my friends. I don't even know. though. That is how TF she knows me.". And Engles appears to reply in part,

"Dude, I have no bleep and idea. This. bleep is incredibly frustrating, and now. I know how fast nonsense spreads at this. school." Do appears to write back, I. will also say this is bleeping ruining. my life temporarily. My reputation is. destroyed and I'm utterly ashamed. Writes back in part. Now, Les replies. back in part, stupid bleeps like to yap, and the fact that they're doing it shows. that they're jealous of you for any. number of reasons. But then, as TMZ.

reports, this is when things arguably. appear to take a turn. So, I mentioned. again the non-consensual text, but there. were later messages that show that Do. appears to accuse Jonathan of spreading. rumors. And this is where Matt, Mr. Engles appears to shut it down. So, Jane. Doe appears to write, "Matt, Jonathan De. told people, I heard something today. He. was at PiI two nights ago, too." Now, Matt appears to respond. He didn't talk. about it at PiI for sure. They wouldn't.

bring that up in front of him when his. story has been it's not true the whole. time. I'll ask him though. It was. definitely one of the upper classmen in. the room who told someone else and it. spread. That one isn't believable. though. Who told you this? If we can. narrow down the girl, we can narrow down. suspects. I know it wasn't Jonathan. Trust me, he would never. Now, she. appears to respond at one point. She. wouldn't tell me who she heard it from. because it's one of her friends. So, I'm. dropping it. I give up. I'm defeated.

Matt replies, "I'm so sorry. Redacted. I. know this sucks a lot, but I think. hopefully very soon these idiots will. move on and it'll be done with." And. there were more text messages that TMZ. claims they obtained reportedly. revealing dough saying she was uninvited. to the fraternity's Halloween party. That the quote, "The woman will always. get the short end of the stick. You all. aren't my friends. You all covering up. your bleeps." Now, Matthew appears to. text Jane Doe. quote, "My ex told me. that I'm being labeled as an assaulter. in the public eye. I was going to ask if.

you may have said something along those. lines to someone, but I know you. wouldn't." Jane Doe reportedly replying. back, "People are changing the narrative. because like in any sexual scenario with. one woman and many men, the woman was. probably a victim." And adding, "I know. there are rumors I was gangbanged." Now, later on, so Friday, November 8th, this. is again after the non-consensual text, Matt, Mr. Les reportedly texted Jane Doe. asking her if she can talk, but Jane Doe. replies, "I think I'm done talking to.

you. I know you lied." Les replies, "What? Can you call?" Jane Doe seemingly. responds, "No, never again." And look, we know what happened, right? We know. that Jane Doe went to the school, went. to authorities with her claims. November. 14th, 15th, that's a critical time. period because this is when Jane Doe. reportedly sits for a police interview. Actually, she's interviewed by a Cornell. University police investigator, a title. N investigator, a victim advocate, an. adviser. According to CBS's review of a. transcript of that interview, Jane Doe.

reportedly said, "I can say with 100%. confidence I was raped." That while she. was okay with her initial sexual. encounter, she added, "Yeah, as much as. I can be because again, I was super. drunk when I got there, but I was pretty. okay with all of this." But then she. acknowledged how she was quote. completely and totally incapacitated, that she felt coerced, that she had to. give in when multiple men forcibly had. sex with her. And while she couldn't. remember certain details, she did. remember this quote, "I was being hit at. the same time, physically hit very, very.

hard." And in this six-page sworn. statement seemingly prepared from the. substance of this interview, Jane Doe. reportedly says, quote, "I had become. extremely uncomfortable with how this. night was turning out. So my thought was. if I do ketamine again maybe I will pass. out. My thought was that if I passed out. and these men have sex with me then they. could have been charged with rape at. this point. Now I want to tell you. something new. I want to tell you what. she reportedly told a Cornell hearing. panel during a Title 9 investigation.

that was 7 months after the alleged. incident. So we go to May 29th, 2025. This was her testifying or providing a. statement via a teleconference. This is. according to ABC News's reporting. She. said, quote, "I was prostituted and I. was held up like bait for a gaggle of. men and I didn't even know it was. happening." She also said that she was. quote, "Halfway through the process of. understanding what happened," adding, "I. remember being coerced into using. ketamine. I remember several respondents. running a train on me many different.

times, and I remember a dark room with. shadows of men in and out constantly. And I remember feeling like there was a. joke, and I was not in on it." And she. also referenced gaps in her. recollection. Quote, "I will never know. everything that happened to me and I. know I've said that a lot." And then you. couple that with one of her friends. saying that she felt Jane Doe was in. shock at the beginning. This is. something her attorney Thomas Jua has. acknowledged the concept of still trying.

to process what happened to her in the. early days. Now, a potential. counterargument that you may see if this. advances to a trial, whether a civil. trial, whether or not this is a. prosecution, is that all of this is not. true, that she's making it up, that this. would be a way to reverse the stories, the narrative, the rumors out there that. have been floating around, circulating. about what had happened to her, that she. didn't want to be shamed. So, she. created the narrative that she was a.

victim. To be clear, this is just a. potential legal defense you may hear. Okay. The reason I say that is because. the men that she accused of assaulting. her provided a radically different. account to this Cornell panel. One of. the men said, quote, "The truth is is. that Jane may have regrets about that. night, as do I, but those regrets do not. amount to sexual assault or sexual. exploitation." Some of the men who claim. that they only walked into the room but. didn't engage in any sex acts with her.

or that they didn't do any drugs, they. feel that they're being unfairly. targeted. One frat member saying, "I was. in the room where it happened that. night, but not when it happened." There. was another frat brother who said, "The. complainant's words and actions. demonstrated affirmative consent to each. action we engaged in. What is highly. possible here is that the complainant. initiated this investigation due to the. public perception of the event and. rumors that arise after the issuance of. the crime alert. Goes back to what I. said before. Now, some of the brothers.

who again feel that they're unfairly. being dragged into this who didn't. allegedly participate in anything. You. had one brother who said, quote, "It is. clear Jane Doe was upset and felt. wronged, and some or even all of her. frustration may be valid, but instead of. being born from facts and truths, statements show both a desire and need. to hold all members accountable. regardless of their specific actions.". Now, what do we know ended up happening? Well, ultimately, two students were. expelled. Two were suspended for at. least two semesters. One had already. graduated, so there was no punishment. there or disciplinary action. and two.

were found not responsible for alleged. sexual misconduct. The police records. indicate that police apparently spoke to. several witnesses, received tips, but. that not all of that information was. sent to the local prosecutor, Tomkins. County District Attorney, Matthew Van. Halton, and he determined that the. allegations didn't support criminal. charges. Although he has come out and. said he didn't get the full information, like he never saw Jane Doe's interview. transcript. We know that New York. Governor Kathy Hokll has appointed.

Leticia James, the attorney general, as. special prosecutor here. To be clear, none of the men at the time of this. recording have been arrested or charged. with a crime. They are innocent unless. proven guilty, but again, they haven't. been charged. In fact, Jane Doe's. attorney, Mr. Joffer, who I mentioned. before, he recently said that his client. was misled about the status of a. criminal investigation back in the day. According to PBS, the district attorney. chose not to go forward with the case. days after Jane Doe gave her account to.

police. So, Mr. Juer said, quote, "I. think she was misled." She was told it. was still, they weren't going to. prosecute, but they were still. investigating. I was involved with this. case early on. I thought they were still. investigating. It was news to me that. they weren't doing anything, but nothing. was being done, and we didn't know that. Now, before I break down and analyze the. importance, the context of these text. messages which we started with, there is. a lot in this case. There's actually so. much more in this case, including if you.

want to read the documents for yourself. So, sometimes here on sidebar when we. cover these big cases, we're kind of. limited in how much we can show you, but. that is why we have developed the case. file section on the Long Crime Plus app. This is where we open up the evidence. vault on all these major cases. So you. can inspect the raw body cam footage, the 911 calls, the crime scene photos, the full trial tapes, all firsthand. Plus, by the way, you get ad free. streaming of all your favorite long. crime and court TV shows. So right now, we got a special offer. Use my promo. code Sidefall. You get your first three.

months of Long Crime Plus for just $2.99. a month. That is 50% off the regular. monthly price. You can go there. You can. check all this out. I want to talk about. the messages. Okay, let me bring in. Chris Clots, civil litigation attorney. to talk about this. Chris, thanks so. much for taking the time. I mean, there's so many different aspects of. this. Generally speaking, when you're. looking at these messages now in. context, now the full messages, what's. your overall impression based on what we. knew and what we're seeing now?

>> Here's the here's the biggest thing that. I would caution everybody who's looking. at these messages. Don't rust to. judgment on either in either direction. Um the the message is really Yeah. Um. you know there is you know when I'm. looking at these I've I've done I've. done all aspects of this work. I've done. criminal defense. Um I've represented. survivors. Um and so I've seen both. sides of it and and you know I know that. I've seen some commentary that the the. young lady who Jane do who's who's. making the accusation was maybe seeming.

somewhat as if she was going along with. thing. maybe to collect evidence, maybe. to get some incriminating statements. from the people that she was texting. with, or maybe she was being genuine um. in what she was talking about. And it. seems to say in some of the text. messages that uh at at one point she. felt as if the um the sexual contact was. consensual. um and that she even, you. know, seemed to have, you know, some. degree of care for the person, you know,

that was the main person that she, you. know, was corresponding with and that. that maybe they had some type of. romantic interest or some type of. relationship. And so the thing that the. text does for me um as somebody who's. seen it from both sides is that it. really causes confusion because um what. had appeared to be you know a very. crystal clear case from you know for the. last several weeks until these text. messages come out um it is now not as. clear. But I but I want to say you know.

in the spirit of you know our. constitution that says you're innocent. until proven guilty. Um and also to be. respectful for survivors of sex abuse. Um both which are very very important. things and and these text messages don't. make it land anywhere squarely without. more information. >> So this can be used by either side, right? So if this goes to a if this goes. to a trial in any way in a civil case or. in a prosecution,

>> you know, the argument is going to be. that this is somebody right who seemed. to consent to all of this, right? This. idea that look what she's talking about, you know, oh my gosh, how wild it was. and she seemed to, you know, have care. for these people. And the only thing. that changed is when there was this. conversation about people were starting. to talk about what happened at Ki and. who was talking about it and her. reputation. And they'll make the. argument and that we just I just talked.

about it before. They'll make the. argument regret is not the same thing as. not providing consent. And you can see. how they're going to use these messages. At the same time, isn't it interesting. that it was Jonathan who sent the text. to say, "I just want to apologize for. how things went down." And so, again, it's interesting to be thinking about. this because this is not un this is not. a clear-cut case for Jane Doe, and this.

is what may complicate it for. prosecutors and what may complicate it. for her civil case. But I think the. timeline is also interesting as well. >> Yeah. So I mean let's talk about the the. the apology from Jonathan can be one of. two things. He can be very legitimately. genuinely saying hey that didn't go you. know didn't want this to happen. I'm. very sorry about all this and it's a. genuine apology. Could be CIA. he could. know that he's really really messed up. and he's trying to keep a relationship.

with a survivor with a victim. Um, and. trying to keep her kind of on the hook. to to stay in line, not to get him in. trouble. So, and it's really not crystal. clear from any of the texts, which which. it is. I mean, you can um argue any of. the texts that that are in here in in. both ways to, you know, support the. position of the survivor JTO or to, you. know, support the position of the people. who have been accused of sexual. And to. be clear, to put that into context, ABC. reported that one day after the campus.

issued an alert about a possible rape at. Kyifi or sexual assault at Kyifi, police. received this tip from an unknown caller. claiming that the fraternity had asked a. witness to stay quiet because quote the. reputation of all involved and the frat. would be ruined and that apparently. there was another witness who said quote. Kaii held a meeting essentially to get. all the men on the same page about what. happened. I know for a fact there are. group messages about the situation. We. don't know if that's true, but that. would go into that narrative. Let's all. get on the same page. Let's coordinate.

this. Let's reach out to her. I mean, I. again, I'm not saying that's what. happened, but that would potentially. support that narrative. the the other. way of thinking about it too and I just. have to be blunt here is you know when. you look at these messages they are. going the argument would be and I I want. I'm so happy to have you on to talk. about this and this is something her. attorney has said and one of her friends. you have to look at everything she said. in a certain context yes you could look.

like she was on board with everything. and like we said she changed because she. wanted to you know because of her. reputation but explain to us how someone. could send those messages and write. those things and yet still maybe be in. denial or shock about what happened or. still process. Can you talk to us about. how that's going to be illustrated at a. trial? >> Yes. And and it's so important to. discuss this because it's really. important. It is completely. counterintuitive. for what most of us know just in general.

life who've not been through a severe. trauma to think nobody would ever say. the things that she said in in in these. text messages if she was truly um you. know a victim. [clears throat] That's. not true. We know and there's there's. you know there's Munchousen syndrome. There's all kinds of survivor syndromes. There's there's syndromes where abused. people stick up for their abusers. That. is something that we all logically know. about but most people don't have any. experience with that. I have seen many.

many survivors of sex abuse um or. physical abuse who will stand up for. protect their abusers and maybe even try. to maintain a good relationship with. their abusers. It is a it is a it's a. tragic sometimes component of being a. survivor in a sex abuse or a physical. abuse case. And so, is it conceivable or. is it even, you know, scientifically. likely, yes, that somebody could be a. survivor of a very um inappropriate.

sexual assault and then still try to. maintain some type of relationship with. some of the abusers or the people who. were involved? Yes, it's it's very. possible. And so, it's and that's what. makes these texts so difficult to parse. out. Is that's what is that what's. happening? And we need to have more. information. probably need to have. somebody who is a a psychologist, psychiatrist, or a profession, mental. health professional to really weigh in. on it once all the evidence comes out. >> But you could see why it would make. cross-examination of her, it would put.

her in the, you know, it would make it. difficult for her. I mean, it really. would. And one of the things that I. think you also have to parse out is did. she voluntarily or involuntarily take. drugs? Because under current New York. law, my understanding is that a person. who voluntarily consumes drugs or. alcohol, meaning rather than being. intoxicated without their consent that. they didn't know, they can't. automatically be considered unable to. consent to sexual activity. And so.

there's this idea of her seemingly. remembering the ketamine. The response. was that he didn't even remember it. But. is it clear to you from these messages. whether she was pied with drugs. voluntarily or involuntarily? >> The one statement about the kind of. controversial one about voluntarily. doing the ketamine off a certain body. part that was talked about in the texts. that seems to be very specific. Is that. something that actually happened and. that she consented to or is it something.

that somebody told her about and she was. trying to get more information about it? It's it is not crystal clear. But if her. words are true, if she did that. voluntarily, then yes, that will be a. hurdle that she will have to get over. >> So, there was a further this other text. message that she sent where she said. like she it seems like she didn't want. to do that and she looked like a sex. doll or sex worker in front of. everybody. I mean, again, it goes to her. credibility and it makes me wonder, is. it going to be difficult? Would would.

would prosecutors look at this and say. we don't believe that we can convince a. jury that she's credible about this or. do they say this again like you just. said we can make a case um with a. further explanation about with. psychological experts and and mental you. know mental health experts and sexual. assault experts to talk about how two. things can be true at once. >> Yeah. And so that's, you know, whether.

that's um, you know, that's a hurdle, but the the prosecutors don't decide if. somebody's innocent or guilty. They just. decide if there's enough evidence to. move forward to present a case to a. jury, and then the jury is the the body. that has to listen to all the evidence. and make a decision. And so should a. prosecutor. believe a survivor slvictim um at face. value and then present it to a grand. jury if there's a grand jury system up. there or present an information um and.

then have a grand jury consider it and. then maybe you know if the grand jury. returns an indictment or they may not. have an they may not have a grand jury. system um you know up there. Uh I don't. know that specific fact on how they do. it procedurally. Every state's. different, but you know, that's what. juries are for. Um, juries are the ones. who are making the very tough calls and. deciding who's credible and not. credible. I I think that a prosecutor. who wanted to bring this case um. probably has enough to bring the case.

Are they going to have some problems to. have to work through? Sure. Um, but. that's what juries are for. And, uh, you. know, uh, juries are not 100% perfect. because we know that there have been. people who have been exculpated who have. been, you know, sentenced to death and. who have gotten off death row or who. have been um exculpated by by other. evidence. But that's why juries and uh. have been tasked with making these. really really tough calls. >> Do you think the defense has a strong. case? In other words, is there a. separation here? Because I haven't seen.

any clear-cut message from her saying. that she welcomed everyone else who came. into the room. There's a question of. how, you know, how much she pushed back. on it afterwards in terms of how much it. it seems like she didn't, for my. opinion, when you look at the messages, it seemed like she that's not something. she wanted, not something she agreed to, but it does become a question of how. much she uh thought that was illegal. versus not. I mean, again, there's the. message later where she says 90% of what. happened wasn't consensual. Do you think. that this is a strong case for the.

defense? Maybe you talk about the people. who were with her initially versus the. people who came afterwards. Um, do you. think that whether if this goes to trial. in some capacity, there's a lot for the. defense to work with? >> There's a ton there there is a ton for. the defense to work with here. And when. you said her quote about in the text. about saying 90% of what happened wasn't. consensual. We don't know the entirety. of what happened. Uh, we do know from. looking at the text messages between. them that she is saying that there were.

three or four people maybe in the bed. where she was. Um, however, depending on. how many people may have stuck their. head in this room, um, or have gone in. the room, there may have been three or. four people that she knew about that. were in the bed. And let's let's just. say for argument sake that she was at. least tacitly okay with that. If there's. more people who came in that we don't. know about, um, it's quite possible that. that's not consensual. And so, um, you. know, and it's it's just going to take.

more research and more investigation, which obviously wasn't adequately done. at the inception of this case. Uh, but. we don't, she says 90% of what happened. wasn't consensual. We don't know 100% of. what everything is that that actually. occurred. It's interesting because if. for people are trying to judge her. credibility and wondering if she's lying. about everything, could you make the. argument that, you know, look, the. argument would be, well, she's lying. about everything because she didn't want. to be shamed. She'd want to she wanted.

to reverse the narrative to look like a. victim, but at the same time, she's. going to do all that where she's going. to speak to the university. She's going. to speak to police. She's going to file. a lawsuit. She's putting a target on her. back even though she's uh uh anonymous, right? She filed as a Jane Doe. She's. been classified as a Jane Doe. She's. putting all I mean there are people who. are unfortunately sexually assaulted in. campuses all the time who don't come. forward and they keep it their secret. And to go forward is a big thing. And I.

wonder if that goes to credibility that. you would only go forward with this. because you believe that you were in. fact a victim and that you have the. evidence to say that you were assaulted. because I'll tell you there was this. recorded call that was provided to News. Nation by Thomas Dufra. This is Jane. Doe's attorney where there was a caller. that allegedly threatens Jane Doe. It. says, quote, "To be honest, man, I'm. probably just going to like pull up to. your house, bro, and like shoot family. member and like family member, etc.,

bro, different people in your family. I. don't really care anymore. So, you see. what I'm trying to say is like for. people who judge the credibility, why. would she go through with this unless. this really happened? Unless this really. was a rape. I have found in my practice in. representing our firm has represented. hundreds and hundreds of survivors of. sex abuse and um it is not frequent that. somebody is going to go to the steps of. subjecting themselves to litigation.

which turns your whole life outward. People are able to take your deposition. You have to answer inter written. interrogatories. you have to sometimes. make court appearances and testify. pre-trial and then you'll have to. obviously testify in court. So, I have. found in my personal experience very. rare that somebody is going to make up. um accusations of this nature. Does it. happen? Yes, I'm not naive, but um it's. very rare. So the point that you just. made about somebody really putting.

themselves out there to be exposed to. vilification, harm, threats, we've seen. that in other cases where famous. politicians have been accused of sexual. inappropriateness and they've been. threatened or they've said that they've. been threatened and that they haven't. come forward because they were scared. That is a very real dynamic. >> Yeah. And and I have to imagine Chris, like her legal team must have known. about all these conversations, all these. messages and had to have had a. conversation with her saying, "Look, if.

we're going to go forward with this, like this beginning conversation, what. you said is going to be an issue. Are. you prepared for that?" or or maybe they. assess you might not have a strong case. because of these messages. But clearly. by going forward with this lawsuit, they. believe that is not going to be the end. of the day. >> Yeah. Usually with um with all of my. clients that I have that we're. representing who have been uh who are. survivors of prior abuse, you have a.

conversation about how invasive a. lawsuit's going to be. uh what's going. to be required as far as them putting. their personal life out there as far as. this is something that's going to be. looming over your head probably for a. year, two years, three years sometimes. before it can get to a trial. And those. are all conversations that that I'm sure. her lawyer had with her. Hopefully, she. was very very direct and honest with him. and you know he's made a decision that. he feels as if there's enough merit to. go forward with it. And again, people. say things early on in these cases as.

survivors to survive, to overcome. intense shame or intense um feelings of. um you know, regret. And so, you know, is everything that she said at the. beginning, was it said to try to. maintain some type of face or try to. play it off like it wasn't a big deal. when inside she was actually very. conflicted about it? But apparently she. was trying to maintain a relationship. with with it looks like with Jonathan. and so maybe she's trying to play it.

cool with him. All those things are. possibilities that really need to play. out um in the legal process. >> Yeah. And you look on social media who. sometimes can be a a microcosm of what a. jury would look like. There are those. who say she's not telling the truth. She's not believable. This, you know, completely diminishes her account. And. there are others who say, well, there. are situations where somebody doesn't. recognize that they're a victim, that. they really didn't consent but didn't. appreciate that, like you said, maybe. surviving or maybe the situation where. they're still trying to process exactly.

what happened. Now, I will tell you from. the legal case, one of the men accused. in this case, uh, Gillio Lopez denies. uh, the accusations. He has called for. Leticia James removal as the special. prosecutor because of a social media. post that she made on September 28th. This is after the allegations became. public. And the post was quote, "What. this young woman has been forced to. endure is horrific and unacceptable. I'm. holding her in my heart and in my. prayers. To her and to all survivors,

you're not alone. We stand with you.". Now, she declined to comment on that at. a recent press conference, saying, "I'm. not going to comment on a Facebook. post." Lopez's team says this. demonstrates a quote bias and. presumption of guilt. This is why it's. problematic for a prosecutor in any case. to make public statements. Does this. torpedo the case? Does this is this. enough grounds for her to be removed? Because a prosecutor is not supposed to. make a conclusion before the uh before. an investigation. They're supposed to.

seek justice, right? They're supposed to. seek is there enough evidence here to. support a prosecution. Is this enough. for her to be removed from the case? Probably not. Is it a sound bite where. she's probably just trying to be. sympathetic? Um, probably most likely. Was it a wise thing to do? You know, maybe could have toned it down a little. bit just to avoid any appearance of of. bias one way or the other. But I mean, prosecutors are there to support. survivors and provide support to people. who have been victimized and to. investigate the cases to make sure that.

nobody is unlawfully or inappropriately. prosecuted in those instances. And you. know what? Sometimes prosecutors don't. know. Sometimes the prosecutors don't. actually really know what the 100% truth. is, but they have evidence that they can. present to a grand jury or they can. present to a jury and then let 12 people. decide. And again, our system, you know, some people would say, you know, the. American justice system is not perfect. Maybe it's not. It's one of the best. systems that's out there in the world. But should a prosecutor try to remain. neutral as possible? Yes. But honestly,

I've never met a prosecutor who's not. passionate about trying to support. survivors and victims as they should be, just as, you know, defense lawyers. should be passionate about, you know, defending everybody's fourth amendment. right, fifth amendment right, sixth. amendment rights. It'd be different if. she made the comments after an. indictment, right? It'd be very, very. different. I mean, to make them. initially, and this is why you see. prosecutors saying, "We'll let the. filings do the talking. No comment at. this time." But Chris Clots, I. appreciate you coming on to try to make. sense of these messages, what we can. expect, putting it into context, and.

clearly it will be used. I think it's. going to be very important. I think it. will be used by both sides in different. ways. Thank you so much for taking the. time. >> Always glad to be here. Thanks for. having me. >> That's all we have for you right now. here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so. much for joining us. I'm [music] Jesse. Weber. I'll speak to you next time.