Chaos Erupts in McDonald's Murder Case

Can you describe the knife that you. shab? >> French knife. >> Well, explain what a French knife. >> Oh, it's a chef knife. Like, >> is it long? >> Those appear to be the incredibly. chilling words of a feainy Muhammad. The. McDonald's employee accused [music] of. murdering her manager in cold blood by. allegedly stabbing her to death. She. just had a [music] very important. hearing in her case where not only. surveillance footage of the brutal. alleged crime was played in court. Her.

police [music] interview has been. published for the world to see, but it. has been reported that a relative of the. victim showed up to court with a [music]. knife and that threw everything into. absolute chaos. We are going to discuss. right now. Welcome to Sidebar presented. by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Now, by the [music] way, if you're. watching Sidebar, you're watching Law. and Crime, and you're in the content. creation game, have you ever wondered. how we're able to share so many clips. from these stories so fast? Here's a.

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most powerful tool there is to help you. share ideas and edit like a pro. So go. to opus.pro/sidebar. to create your videos today. And for. November only, you can get 60% off of an. annual plan. Now, you may think that a. relative of a woman who was allegedly. stabbed to death by a c-orker showing up. at the defendant's court hearing with a. reported weapon that that would be the. wildest update, the wildest allegation. in a story that we have been covering. for months. Maybe not. There is so much.

to talk about right now in the. incredibly disturbing and bizarre case. of 27-year-old Afeny Muhammad. Now, this. all purportedly started with Muhammad. ranting on social media about her. manager, Jennifer Harris, at a. McDonald's in East Point, Michigan. >> She's a bully. I'm telling you, she's a. bully. Somebody going to have to do. something about that. It's not funny. It's not fair. It isn't funny at all. So, you know, she could keep being a.

bully if she wants to, but that is going. to catch up to her. But this ended with. Harris, a 39year-old mother of six, dead. And authorities alleged that on. July 10th, Muhammad gets into an. argument with Harris after she said she. was sent home early. And according to. investigators, Muhammad left, sat in her. car for a while, came back with a knife, and when officers arrived, Harris had. reportedly been stabbed up to 15 times, 13 to 15 times. and a customer with a.

gun had apparently stepped in to stop. Muhammad from fleeing. That's the. allegation from authorities. Now, Harris, she was rushed to the hospital. but later died from her injuries. Now, to give you an idea of what we're about. to get into with these latest updates, this latest court hearing. I actually. just want to go back real quick to what. authorities laid out in a July hearing. What they claim happened on the day. Harris was allegedly stabbed by. Muhammad. Prior to the stabbing, Muhammad was sent home by Harris for not. performing her work duties and told.

Harris, "I'll be back." Muhammad was. arrested on scene and the knife was. recovered. Muhammad admitted that she. intended to kill Harris and stated that. after she was sent home, uh she drove to. a nearby park, decided to come back and. stab Harris with a knife that she had. inside of her vehicle. When Muhammad. returned to stab Harris, she entered the. back entrance with a hooded mask over. her face in an attempt to conceal her. identity and attempted to flee the scene. after the stabbing, but was stopped by. an armed customer. >> So, Aaney Muhammad was charged with. firstdegree premeditated murder. We're.

talking life without parole and carrying. a dangerous weapon with unlawful intent. Our understanding is that amounts to up. to 5 years in prison. She's also charged. apparently as a habitual offender. That's a designation that stems. seemingly from a prior stabbing. conviction in Virginia of her then. boyfriend. She was given a suspended. sentence in that case. She has been. deemed competent to stay on trial, which. we discussed on a prior episode of. Sidebar. But now, now we have to talk. about what just happened the other day. in court during Muhammad's preliminary.

hearing. So whether there's enough. evidence for the case to move forward. Is there sufficient probable cause that. she committed the crime and whether this. case should be remanded over to circuit. court? There is a lot to discuss, including someone being taken into. custody. All right, so let me bring in. criminal defense attorney Neil Rockhine. to talk more about this. Neil, thanks so. much for taking the time. A lot to get. into. I want to start with maybe one of. the most wild things to happen. Okay, it's being reported that you have this.

relative of the victim, Jennifer Harris, who was taken into custody at the. courthouse on Friday. So, according to. Fox 2 Detroit News WXYZ ABC7, this. relative, possibly Harris's teenage. daughter, allegedly tried to bring. knives into the courtroom, that this. relative was taken into custody. The. hearing had to be paused. The report is. that after seeing the surveillance. footage that was played in court, namely. the footage of the defendant allegedly. walking into that McDonald's and.

proceeding to attack Harris, that this. family member walks out of the. courthouse, goes into the parking lot, and allegedly grabs two knives from a. car. Now, it's being reported that a. relative wrestled one of those knives. away from her, but she was able to get. back into the courthouse with one knife. and that she was uh tackled by police. the prosecutor's office is now weighing. potential charges here. Um, talk to me. about that in the sense that look, you. know, the the Harris family is obviously.

quite emotional, particularly during. this kind of evidence. Have you ever. seen anything like that happening. before? I have never seen a case in which a. relative of the the victim entered into. or tried to smuggle into a courthouse. weapons to potentially injure, you know, whether it be the judge or the defendant. or others. I haven't seen that. I've. seen plenty of cases, as have you, where. victims or relatives of victims have.

been in the courtroom and have lunged at. or gone after or been aggressive with um. the the accused. I mean, the the Larry. Nasser case comes to mind where there. was a one of the the victim's uh. relatives, I think the father of one of. the victims, tried to charge at Nasser. and the police had to subdue him. Uh, so. we've seen many scenes play out like. that, but nothing quite like this. >> It it's it's helpful, Jesse, to also. understand the size of this courthouse.

>> Yeah. >> The the courthouse in East Point is. small. It's cramped. There is a one door. in and out um that leads through. security. When you once you get past the. security uh entrance, everything is out. in the open and there's essentially one. single courtroom. So it is a really. cramped, very tightly congested area. So. if one's emotions are really high from. the court proceeding, I mean there isn't.

a lot to diffuse, a lot of time or space. to allow yourself or to allow someone to. sort of diffuse their energy. I mean the. parking lot is right outside. It is. cramped and tiny. And so I can just. imagine how this woman's emotions sort. of over overwhelmed her and she tried to. sneak in some some weapons into the into. the courthouse. >> And look, again, if this is the. reporting is true and the allegations. true that it was after watching the. surveillance footage, I'm not entirely. surprised. It's an incredibly difficult.

emotional moment. The idea of bringing. not just a weapon, right? The allegation. is a knife. So there's something. symbolic there, right? You're talking. about Harris who was stabbed to death. allegedly by uh Aeny Muhammad that this. relative brings in essentially the same. kind of weapon. Um do you think the. prosecutor's office is going to charge. her here or charge this relative here? >> I don't know the answer to that. I think. there's a decent chance. I if I were if. I were guessing, I would say no. But.

again, that's just a coin toss. Um, look, bringing weapons into a courthouse. is extremely dangerous. Uh, we've seen. stories of people that have brought guns. into courouses or into other sterile. zones, but but a knife is an incredibly. personal offensive weapon, right? And. I've watched your other excellent. coverage of this case and you and other. guests have talked about a knife being. such a an an intimate way to attempt to.

injure or kill somebody and someone else. who could be caught in the crossfire. Could be a judge. It could have been a. court security officer. It could have. been a prosecutor or even the defense. lawyer. So when you bring a knife and. you try to stab somebody or injure. somebody, yes, you you could be injuring. other people. And I think that there's. is there a chance the prosecutor will. charge? Yeah. I think the prosecutor. could say, "Well, it's the victim's. family and I don't want to upset things. anymore and she's over it." It's a coin. toss either way.

>> Yeah. Now, by the way, talk about that. surveillance footage of Muhammad. allegedly stabbing Harris being played. in court. Detroit News reporting that. the Harris family, again, incredibly. emotional, but it was Harris's mother. who apparently collapsed on the floor. I. think that just goes to the emotional. weight of this evidence, but how much. impact this is going to have on the. legal case, too. I mean, it's not every. day that you have footage of a crime. either about to be committed or being.

committed. >> You're you're so right. We rarely catch. the moment, right? We oftentimes see. situations where people are going into. the scene of a crime or leaving the. scene of a crime. But here you actually. see the crime. So seeing your relative. actually killed, I mean those images. will just never leave. They will they. will haunt the the the haunt the. victim's family. And I'm going to give.

you one more. It's going to haunt. jurors. You try to pick a jury in a case. like this, they're going to say, you're. going to tell them, you're not just. going to hear about the murder. You're. not just going to hear about the. aftermath of it or what led up to it, but we're going to show [snorts] it to. you. You're going to actually see a. murder. We watch things like this on. television in movies, but we know. they're simulated. We know that they're they're acted out. and they're meant to look real, but this.

is the real thing. You're gonna watch. somebody die in real time. >> Now, talk about things that are being. played. >> I mean, my stomach is turning just. thinking about that, Jesse, as I'm just. sitting here thinking about how that. would feel to watch that. It. >> It's awful. It's awful. And it's it's. also awful to be thinking about you, you. know, looking at how terrifying that. scene was. I mean, if the allegations. are true, somebody in a mask carrying a. knife about it's it's it's hard to. grasp. Now, talk about the things that. are being played in court. How could I.

not mention Aphenia Muhammad's interview. with police? Okay, now let me lay it out. here a little bit. After being read her. rights, she apparently signs a waiver of. those rights and she speaks seems to. appear to speak voluntarily with. detectives. And this is when she gets. into a lot. So, first she talks about. how she apparently felt bullied by. Harris who made her clock out of work. She also accused her of making racist. statements to her. Did she make you cop. out in that way?

>> Yes. >> How many times? >> It happened. It happened just the third. time this week. >> Third time this week. And And can you. tell me why do you think she's doing. that? >> I think she's doing that because I had. spoke up to her. >> Has this lady has she been bullying you. for a while or is this was just a one or. two or three? >> She's been bullying me for a while. >> Does she do that? start point. >> She she has been bullying. Um it was one. of the girls she recently stopped. messing with. Um because now I guess I.

turned out to be what she wanted to. bully. But she has been looking for a. very long time. She play her little gangster music and. she don't like classical music. She. doesn't. like her. She's like, she was always. saying comments like I thought we all. supposed to look out for each other. I. just met she was taking for like other. coworkers and then yesterday she. >> and then she arguably confesses.

>> Where'd you stab her? >> Did you want to kill her? >> I did. Now, if you couldn't hear that, when asked, "Did you want to kill her?". she appears to say, "I did." And you. know what else is wild? In the. interview, she appears to demonstrate on. the detective how she allegedly stabbed. Harris multiple times. The neck area,

the neck area, the chest. It is to say. it's chilling is an understatement. Okay? To say it's chilling is an. understatement. And when asked how did. she feel after stabbing Harris? >> What about now? Do you feel anymore? >> Do you feel bad about it that you did it. or you feel. >> that you did it? >> I feel better. >> I'm not a person. That's why I found.

>> Neil. My gosh. We talk about how police. interviews with defendants can be really. bad for a criminal defendant. Does it. get worse? >> No. This is a this is a um Hiroshima or a. Nagasaki on the scale of of of. awful, dangerous, horrible, consequential interviews. Um. look, she's a she's painted herself in.

The danger with social media is that. people talk about their feelings. They're so open and share their feelings. and they allow themselves to be so raw. in in the present moment where she said, "I'm going to do this and this woman is. my target." And then she goes and does. it and then afterwards she's caught by. the police and she says, "This is what I. did." I mean, besides herself, Jesse, besides taking a little a red ribbon and.

and and putting it on her and saying, "Here, prosecutor state, I've gifted. myself as a con as a defendant to you.". I mean, she's essentially wrapped. herself in a bow as someone who was. guilty. >> Now, I'm going to get into a little bit. what her defense attorney said during. the preliminary hearing. Okay, we'll. talk about it, see if it was effective, maybe gives a glimpse of where they're. going to be going. talk about. But let. me just say Mcome County Assistant. Prosecutor Kamar Pepu, this is what he. said in court as we're trying to.

summarize what the main theory is of the. prosecution based on, you know, you look. at the police interview. Quote, there. was no argument. There was no talking. When she was interviewed, she admitted. that when she went in there to confront. her, to kill her, that she intended to. kill Jennifer Harris. And when she did. this, it wasn't in a manic state. It. wasn't some emotional outburst. She came. in calmly to do all these things. She. was prepared. Again, I'm going to get. into what the defense is in a minute, but Neil, they're trying to he's. basically saying, listen, there's no. mental health defense. There's no.

emotional outburst defense here, right? >> Yes. He's saying that this fits the. classic definition of premeditated, deliberative, and deliberated murder. that she had a motive. She thought about. it, she went into the she had took took. went into her place of work with a with. a mask. So, she had the time to actually. deliberate and attempt to intentionally. conceal her identity. That she went. inside very calmly, sought out her. target, and she ended up uh attacking.

her target, the very person she. mentioned in the video, and that there. was no sign of any sort of she wasn't. thinking that this person was a. religious figure. Uh hallucinations or. historical figures weren't speaking to. her. These weren't voices in her head. she was acting out um the plan that she. announced on tell on on her Instagram. and then as she acted it out she. deliberated over it and premeditated. about it and then fulfilled it. I mean.

he's making out a case for classic. first-degree murder. >> And if there was a question about. identification after all this, you know, put that to the side. We got to talk. about witness testimony. That was very. crucial during this preliminary hearing. as well because you had a witness. testify, Deborah McMillan, who was. apparently there during the alleged. attack. She testified that Muhammad was. angry, that she was yelling at Harris. for clocking her out reportedly because. Muhammad had failed to do her job. There. were allegations of her playing on her. phone, being late. You also had a former. McDonald's employee who testified about.

what Muhammad told Harris. Quote, she. seemed very irritated and she started. off by saying, quote, "So you clock me. out without telling me? You reap what. you sow, you better watch your back. I'll be back. You had a truck driver. testify, claimed that as he was. unloading a delivery, Muhammad returns. back to the restaurant and says, quote, "Hi, I work here." And then pulls. something out of her bag. And by the. way, back to McMillan, she didn't. witness the alleged stabbing herself, but testified that she saw someone.

running by wearing a quote Friday the. 13th mask, saw Muhammad with a knife, then got to the front of the restaurant. and sees Harris lying on the floor. bleeding out, and even tried to save her. life, by the way, by pressing towels on. the stab wounds. And this was really. heartbreaking. Apparently, according to. her, Harris said to her as she's. bleeding out, Deb, please don't let me. die. Now, Neil, while ID may not be a. big issue in this case, it is.

interesting to hear these different. descriptions. And you had a coworker, Neil, who testified that she knew it was. Muhammad because not only did she. recognize the work uniform underneath. this zip zip-up hoodie that the asalant. was apparently wearing, but she looked. at the asalants's uh the asalent's nails. as she was holding the knife and that. the nails look like the McDonald's. McFlurry cups, you know, with the red. and yellow McDonald's logo on them. and. she noticed earlier that morning that. Muhammad was wearing those theme nails.

and complimented her on it. So you have. all of these witnesses who are helping. with the identification. Neil, you have. direct evidence of identification which. is eyewitnesses directly identifying her. as the person. you have circumstantial. evidence um both before, during, and. after of individuals who are have are. going to identify pieces or things or uh. or connect dots that that lead back to. her as the person who's responsible. And.

juries are told that there is. identification is always an issue. The. state always has to prove. identification, but that evidence takes. two forms. direct evidence and. circumstantial evidence. In this case, the state has both. If the defense. attempts to make this case about. identification, um this would be uh a travesty. compounded on top of the the tragedy. There's no way that anybody could.

rationally, competently, or reasonably. argue that she wasn't the one who did. the stabbing. Just not it's not. reasonable. It's not feasible. There's. way too much evidence. Now, I want to. play something here from her defense. attorney, Joshua Jones, and he seemed to. suggest as for why the prosecution. didn't meet its burden to bind the. defendant over for trial. So, basically. saying that during the course of this. preliminary hearing, there's not enough. evidence. There's not enough probable. cause. For count one, firstdegree. premeditated murder. Jones appears to. argue, well, there are certain aspects.

to this that don't necessarily show that. she bought a knife or wore those clothes. with a plan to kill. So, seemingly. trying to distinguish between first and. seconddegree murder. >> But I don't want the court, nor do I. want the facts to be insinuated that it. was bought for this purpose or this. incident. It's a hooded mask. And again, I'm just identifying some um I don't. want to say. clarifying some things on what we heard.

in facts because it was very clear that. it was some sort of zip up hood that. went over the face. It's not a separate. mask that was, you know, bought uh for. this purpose. It was it was an entire it. was a tire specifically because we're. talking about the difference between, you know, at least for today's purposes, first and second degree. And there's. that identification of um premeditation. or preparation to get you to first. degree. >> As for count two, carrying a dangerous. weapon with unlawful intent, Jones. appears to suggest that there's.

insufficient evidence that the knife was. 3 in or more than length. Now, why does. that matter? Because if you look at the. statute in the state, it reads, "A. person shall not with intent to use the. same unlawfully against the person of. another go armed with a knife having a. blade over 3 in in length." So, it. actually lays it out there. So, here's. what he says. The blade length must be. over 3 in. And the only thing we. necessarily had from Miss McMillan is.

that it may be between five and six. and. she's just referencing the size of the. knife. We again, we don't have anything. specific to the blade. >> Neil, what do you make of those. arguments? I mean, they feel like, hey, I'm just doing the best that I can. possibly do given the circumstances, but. I'm trying to say that the prosecution. hasn't met the specific burden with. those specific elements. What'd you. think of those arguments? >> Not much. And I don't have anything. against his lawyer. This is to borrow.

from a scene from the Wolf of Wall. Street. this is a Grenada which was that. this is an unlosable case for the state. It was like an unlosable war when the. United States went into Grenada. Why do. I say that? [snorts] Because there is. they can make attempt to make an. argument that somehow, think about it, why did she wear the mask? Why did she go back? Why did she enter. into the back door as opposed to enter. the front door? Why did she have to.

identify for for a a truck driver that. was dropping off materials? Why did she. have to have to identify herself as an. employee? Because she felt awkward. entering with the mask. You don't show up for for work in a. mask. You don't show up for work and go. through the back door in a job to. justify to someone why you're there. Your only reason you do it is because it. looks awkward and odd and you want to be. able to get past that person without. them stopping you. Um, I don't put much. stock in the the lawyer is doing the.

very best he can with the facts that. he's given. If her argument is and if the lawyer's. argument on her behalf is, well, she. went back to confront the the the victim. and didn't have any malevolent or or. harmful intent. And then during that. conversation, things just she rose to the to the heat. of the moment. It just overcame her and. she ended up losing control of her.

emotions uncontrollably. That would be their argument that this. was second degree and not first. Right? Their argument would be but the facts. undercut that. the Instagram, the post. or going there, the mask. I don't care. whether the the the the knife was three. inches, three feet, or whether it was a. quarter of an inch. The fact of the. matter is is that you can be accused of. a variety of different crimes in. Michigan for carrying a weapon. Even if.

you don't have the intent to to use it. unlawfully against another, you could. still be prosecuted for carrying a. concealed weapon or even if that charge. fell. that is not a dispositive. It. doesn't ring much provide much of a. victory for the state. It's like it's. like winning the it's like scoring a a. touchdown in the you know the last. minute of a game when you've already. lost you're behind 99 to nothing. Doesn't do very much. The reality is is. that if even if that one count were to.

be dismissed, she still brought a weapon. and used it against another at work. So. I don't put much stock in those. arguments. I think the lawyer is trying. he's trying to do the best he can with a. very bad a very very very bad set of. facts and a very bad hand. >> And look, this is maybe a glimpse of. what they may try to argue because look, when it comes to seconddegree murder in. Michigan, it's all other kinds of murder. and they're really looking at what the. punishment should be. Um because yes, you know, it could be where seconddegree.

murder punishable by life in prison, but. it also says or any terms of years in. the discretion of the court trying the. same. So there's more room here uh for a. lesser punishment. That's why they're. trying to go for second degree here or. at least try to entertain that idea. But. oh, by the way, real quick, the. testimony of this witness I thought was. really interesting. The truck driver, this customer at the drive-thru who. reportedly took out a gun, chased the. asalent, and allegedly Muhammad even. testified that the hoodie came down as.

he was chasing her, showed her face. anyway, catches up to her, holds her at. gunpoint, and she allegedly says, "I. have a little brother to live for." And. according to him, she said, "They kept. bullying me." Neil, another important. witness that I didn't even mention. before. Um, I mean, I don't know how. many I don't know how many nails in the. coffin we can identify, but there are. there are. 15, 20. each of these as a dispositive.

piece of evidence against the defendant. Look, we defense lawyers are sometimes. given a very bad set of facts and our. job, whether we like it or not, whether. we like the facts of the case or not, is. to try to defend the accused as best we. can. >> We come up with arguments that we think. at least will test the state's case. And. so I don't find much of the evidence. that we've discussed so far, Jesse, to.

be very favorable to the defendant. They. may try to pick up little things here, and I hate to just sort of dump on her, but this is a this is a terrible case to. have to defend. I do not envy her lawyer. in any respect, but let's talk about. what happened. So, chief judge, the. honorable Kathleen G. Galen, uh, made a. determination. So, what did what did she. determine in terms of probable cause? Is. there enough? All first, when it comes. to first-degree premeditated murder, she. said the victim was found on the floor. in a large pool of blood, multiple stab.

wounds, a homicide occurred by criminal. agency, you have a witness, a manager. who heard commotion, found Harris on the. floor bleeding, that there was intent, there was premeditation, that Muhammad. said in in the interview that she left, became angry, that her boss had clocked. her out, she went to a park, she prayed, she thought about how she was wrong, she. admitted that she possessed this long. chef's knife. The knife was clearly over. 3 in. And the judge says the evidence. has shown that she wanted Harris dead.

Quote, I felt like I wanted her dead. And that in the interview, Muhammad, while demonstrating how the stabbing. occurred, she has these nails, which. again, this form of identification. And. this all demonstrates a cool reflection. She returns back to the McDonald's. She. knowingly carries out a plan, wears a. hoodie mask, as a witness had said. It's. kind of like a Jason mask, another set. of ski mask, and that there is more than. sufficient evidence that Aaney Muhammad,

the defendant, killed the victim, Jennifer Harris, with premeditation. So, the people met their burden. That count. is moving forward. Count two, carrying a. dangerous weapon with unlawful intent. The judge says the defendant possessed a. long chef's knife, admitted that she. brought the knife for purposes of. stabbing the victim, stabbed the victim. with the weapon, and found that there. was probable cause that the defendant. carried a dangerous weapon with the. intent to use unlawfully against another. person. The people met their burden. there. So, in other words, for both.

counts, they're binding over to circuit. court for further proceedings in front. of a different judge. Neil, talk to me. about that. It's a lower bar there. It's. not surprising the judge ruled this way, right? >> It's not. The Michigan's preliminary. examination hearing is really the the. requirement that there be probable cause. established to support a charge. It's. the lowest burden that we have. It's. nowhere near beyond a reasonable doubt. It's nowhere near clear and convincing. evidence. It's nowhere near even a.

prepoundonderance of the evidence. They. don't have to show that it's more likely. than not that she is guilty of these. crimes. all they have to do is show that. there's some evidence uh for which to to. to reason to believe that she's guilty. of these two offenses. So, it's a very. low burden. Um but I think what the. prosecution did during the hearing was. lay out u very much kind of gave us a. preview of what the facts of the case. are going to look like. And you can. imagine, and there are some cases that. we've seen where a prosecutor lays out.

their case in district court, attempts. to even to meet this low burden, and. they barely get over the hump. It's very. just narrowly make it over. And we begin. to sort of ini envision what's the trial. going to look like because we can't see. how it's going to be much better than. this. This though is a case that not. only did it clear the the the burden, clear that low burden, but we look and. think, okay, if this were the only. evidence the state introduced at a. trial, would this be a compelling case.

that she premeditated, in other words, thought about, that she thought about. even for more than a second, that she. thought about what she was going to do. and that she deliberated over it, that. she had some time to reflect and think. about it. And so the answer is even if. this was the state's case, I think that. they would have a even if the burden was. just met in district court, this would. still likely be a very compelling case. at a trial beyond a reasonable doubt. >> So now it goes to Mcome County Circuit. Court. There is an arraignment scheduled.

for December. We will see if this heads. towards trial. There's obviously going. to be motions that are made uh. beforehand, but this is by all accounts. proceeding to the next stage. Um just a. very disturbing sad case. Neil Rockhine, thank you so much for taking the time. Good to see you. >> Thank you, man. I appreciate it. >> And that's all we have for you right now. here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so. much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, [music]. Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you. should get your podcasts. You can follow. me on X or Instagram. I'm Jesse Weber.

I'll speak to you next time.