7 New Details in Disturbing Florida Learjet Crash

We have a major new development in the. Palm Beach Learjet crash. Investigators. just found [music] a critical piece of. the plane. This is miles from the site. What does it reveal about what was. happening in the sky? What does this. tell [music] us that we didn't know? We're going to break down the latest. evidence and what a retired. international captain believes was. really happening in [music] that. cockpit. Welcome to Sidebar, presented. by Law on Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

As I said, we have a big development in. the [music] Palm Beach Larjet crash, and. it may be the most important piece of. physical evidence that we have so far. because investigators just revealed that. a critical piece of the plane's tail, the left elevator, the part that. controls whether the nose goes up or. down, was found miles away from the. crash site. This is confirming something. that we talked about in our previous. episode of Sidebar, that this plane was. reportedly already coming apart in the. sky before it hit the ground. But the. question is, did that piece breaking off.

cause the nose dive or did the violent. forces of the dive rip it off? Now, the. NTSB says they don't know yet. Something. we're going to explore. But just really. quickly here, if you don't know about. this, if you're just hearing about it. for the first time, on the afternoon of. November 1st, there was a Learjet 60. It. was operated by Aurora Aviation. They're. doing business as upper jets. Departed. Austin, Texas, and was headed for the. Bahamas. Two pilots, seven passengers.

They were all on board. At around 12:47. p.m., the crew reported this light icing. and moderate turbulence at 35,000 ft. And they asked to climb ATC approved. And less than 30 seconds later, the. plane nose dived, dropping 20,000 feet. per minute, according to the pilot's. report. and the situation was escalating. quickly. According to the NTSB, the crew. initially reported altitude deviations. of approximately 700 ft because of that. turbulence. They then reported picking.

up more ice, requested permission to. climb to 37,000 ft. And less than 30. seconds after that climb was approved, the crew reported that the aircraft was. descending. So, at approximately 12:48. p.m., they reported an oversp speed. condition while descending at 20,000 ft. per minute. All nine people on board. were killed in the crash. The impact was. so violent, so severe that it left a. crater in the middle of a roadway. And. talking about the victims, they have. been identified. You have tech.

entrepreneur Adam Robinson, his wife. Helen Sharp, their two young children, four-year-old Emma, two-year-old. Charlie. You also have family friends. Rachel Reed and Charie Far, their. children's caregiver, Anita, Maria, Satina. And then the two pilots, 55-year-old Jeffrey Gregory and. 20-year-old pilot Natalia Gadela. Filgaras. And now we know the plane. didn't just come down because parts of. it came apart. The NTSB confirmed that. the majority of the Larjett's left.

elevator, so the control surface on the. tail that controls pitch, whether the. nose goes up or down, that was found in. three pieces between 1.3 and 3.8 miles. from the crash site. NTSB board member. Tom Chapman explained this during that. briefing. >> yesterday. The majority of the. aircraft's left elevator was located in. three pieces within a range about 1.3 to. 3.8 miles away from the accident site.

Those items are being retained for. analysis. For those not as familiar with aircraft. components, the elevator is a control. surface located on the tail which. controls the up and down pitch of the. aircraft. Now, the distance from the. site indicates that it separated before. impact. It it seems implausible that it. would have been a result of the impact. It would have separated before the. impact. at the speed the aircraft was. traveling, I'm not sure it would have. been effective, but the the um the. function of the elevators to control.

pitch up and down. Uh at that at those. speeds, it it I I don't know that it. would have been effective even it had if. even if it had still been attached to. the aircraft. But knowing that it was. lost is a very important piece of. evidence in terms of pointing us towards. other things to investigate. And there's. another important detail to this, too, and that is that the AP reports that. freeze frames from videos appear to show. the horizontal stabilizer missing from. the plane's tail. Now, this hasn't been.

confirmed officially, but this is going. to be significant, and I want to talk. about that, too, because here's the. question that Chapman himself said they. just can't answer yet. What that means. exactly in terms of what caused the. aircraft to lose control or whether the. uh the loss of this piece was a result. of the forces on the aircraft, we don't. know yet. So, it's going to take some. more analysis, but finding that piece is. a very very uh significant uh bit of. evidence. >> Okay, as you're watching this, if you're. into content creation, if you're putting. things out on social media, you might be.

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4.0. Go to opus.pro/sidebar Pro/sidebar. to get a free week and then 50% off for. the next three months. That's. opus.pro/sidebar. And there's another piece of this that. Chapman addressed, the crater itself. Remember I talked about how severe it. was because previously it wasn't. accessible because it was filled with. water. >> NTSB is working with local public works. teams to begin water removal from the. impact crater so our investigation in. and around the crater can begin.

We believe that will begin tomorrow in. terms of being able to access the. crater. A key step was the removal of an. unstable utility pole this morning and. that took quite a bit of work and public. works folks were terrific in the work. that they did which is frankly very. dangerous work. Uh we were happy to see. that happen because that helps us now. access the crater and begin to stabilize. it. We expect to find critical airplane. components within the crater. So experts. are now split on whether losing the.

elevator caused the nose dive. Aviation. safety expert Jeff Gazetti told the AP. that the pieces breaking off were. probably a byproduct of the dive, not. the cause, because if they had broken. off at altitude, they'd be much further. away. But former NTSB member John Goglia. has a different theory because he says. flight tracking data shows the plane. leveling off briefly at around 8,000 ft. before the final plunge and that the. plane pulled up sharply causing pieces. of the tail to tear off. So you have two.

different theories here, but again. really important to understand what. happened. Okay, so to help us make sense. of this, I want to bring on Captain. David Funk, a pilot, retired. international captain with Northwest. Airlines. Thank you so much for taking. the time, sir. I I wish we weren't. talking under these circumstances, but. it is just a horrific horrific tragedy. that we're all trying to get to the. bottom of understanding why this. happened. The first place I want to. start is about this elevator. So, do you. have an opinion, let's start there, on.

how or why it may have detached? Because. as we talked about, there are different. theories. >> Sure. You know, I'll just show you on a. DC9. This is a great example. The. elevator is located up here on the top. in in what we call a tetail because it. looks like a T configuration. That's a. DC9 that I showed you. It's very similar. layout to what the Lear Model 60 is. And. most LE jets, as a matter of fact, every. Learjet I'm aware of uses a TTIL. It. detached probably and we won't know for.

sure until the NTSB finishes its. investigation because it was. overstressed and it takes a lot of force. to pull an elevator off the airplane. You think about the situation this crew. was in. Um they're they're in a a. rapidly developing thunderstorm. It had. gained 15,000 maybe 20,000 ft in less. than 20 minutes. So that's really a a. rapidly expanding thunderstorm. We think. of micro bursts and down bursts that. down airplanes on final with wind shear.

This is still a developing stage where. the micro burst is where the cloud is. actually collapsing um and is starting. to shrink. But at the upper altitude. levels above 30,000 feet all the way up. to 60 plus thousand feet when these. thunderstorms are growing that rapidly. severe turbulence and rapidly developing. clear icing is a is a possibility. And. the Lear 60 has a very narrow envelope. up at altitude of the speeds it can.

operate at between its maximum mock. speed or VMM O maximum operating and its. minimum speed which would be stall. speed. And if either one of those are. exceeded, the airplane either goes into. mock tuck where the nose tucks down. because of the severe uh drag that's. caused by exceeding its maximum mock. number or it stalls which is also going. to cause the nose to drop down and up at. altitude more likely than not with the. uh as my friend John Mclofflin he and I. happen to serve on a nonprofit board.

together and have for years another. 20,000 hour plus pilot with 3540 years. in the meteorology as a meteorologists. both on TV and teaching radars as he. points out they have somewhere between. 12 and 40 miles plus per hour of wind. shear at altitude which could easily. overcome that airplane's ability to. maintain its altitude properly and stay. on speed. So, just to jump in for a. second, I I do want to talk about the. weather a lot, too, but when you go back.

to the NTSB, um, and I think it gets to. the heart of this. Tom Chapman said that. even if the elevator had stayed attached. at the speeds this plane was traveling, he's not even [clears throat] sure it. would have been effective anyway. That's. what you're saying, right? >> Exactly. Once you get past a certain. speed, it either becomes blanketed with. the drag off the lower wing, you know, the turbulence off the lower wing. blankets it because it's sitting nose up. and it's sinking rapidly, or it's tucked. under and they just run out of elevator.

control. And if it's a high-speed, maximum mock U has been exceeded and. they go from what would be 0.81 81% of. the speed of sound at the given altitude. and temperature. they exceeded that, we'll say they're up at 0.9 or 0.92 or. 0.93, you know, 92 93% of their maximum. speed or or max mock number. If they're. that high above it, it becomes very. inefficient and ineffective. And so, as.

the nose goes down, your recovery is to. deploy your speed brakes. And if you're. not slowing down sufficiently, throw. your landing gear out. It's going to be. damaged, >> but at least the airplane remains. flyable. could could be landed on his. belly. As rapidly as this developed, I'm. not sure the crew had time to even react. in this case. If they were in severe. turbulence, and I want you to think, everything in the airplane is flying up. and down off the ceiling and they're. hanging on for dear life. >> And up at 35, 37, 40,000 ft. It's very.

difficult to hand fly an airplane. so. touchy that um we require in the United. States in what we call um minimum. separation airspace above flight level. 290 that the airplane must be on. autopilot at all times because the human. being is just not capable of keeping up. with the fine adjustments to hold it. within 50 ft of its assigned altitude up. that high. >> Let me ask you a question because the. NTSB said the plane like as as we've. been talking about was descending at. these rates exceeding 20,000 ft per. minute. The flight radar 24 showed it. exceeding 32,000 at one point. Do you.

train for that? Are there simulations or. that does that's just not possible? >> Well, you can't train for that for those. higher rates, but what you do train for. is how to keep the airplane from getting. into that position, recognizing it early. and recovering properly. And there's a. lot of training done for that. The Air. Force, I'm not a fighter pilot by I. just, you know, a studyer of aviation. I. flew helicopters and flew for also flew. in the airlines and lots of corporate. jets. I've got about 25 type ratings in. in various jet airplanes. But once you.

get to 10,000 ft in an Air Force fighter. and and you're pointed straight down, they just eject out of the airplane. because they can't recover that quickly. It's 600 plus miles an hour based on the. frames per second, you know, per second. and the size of the poles as the. airplane went by. You know, someone was. able to to roughly calculate 600 miles. per hour. Once they got below about 10, eight or 10 thousand feet, even if all. the components were on the airplane, >> they probably couldn't pull out. They. didn't have enough room. Yeah. You know,

to pull out in that case, >> let's take a step back and talk about. the weather. Okay, I have to ask about. the weather. Now, the crew reported. >> manageable icing and asked to climb. Now, the ATC approved less than 30. seconds later, they're in this nose. dive. Now, I I've read that this was uh. potentially a deep convection. environment. uh precipitation, ice. crystals likely, but what do we not know. for sure? Um do we not know for sure the.

degree of icing when we talk about this? >> Yeah, we we don't really know for sure. yet. In the radar data that my friend. John Mclofflin has analyzed in detail, he's unsure based on the temperatures if. we were in what's called a super cooling. event. Well, we all know water goes. through a phase change at 32 degrees, it. becomes ice. Well, it's possible for. water to be super cooled and still. liquid all the way. It's known to be all. the way down to 37 to 40 degrees below. zero centigrade, which is about the same.

as 40 degrees below zero Fahrenheit. So, very cold. And um but that doesn't. happen typically up high unless you have. this very strong updraft pulling warm. moist air from the surface and throwing. it up high. And the core could be much. warmer even though that those water. droplets are there. They they may be. super cooled. And when we have cases. where you have that heavy a super cooled. air or water droplets hitting an. airplane, it's possible to gain three, four, five, six inches of ice literally.

in seconds. And no aircraft um that I'm. aware of flying today has the ability to. overcome that high. >> Can you can you jump on that for a. second? What about anti- ice components. of the plane, blowing [clears throat]. air, anything like that? >> Yeah, you've got anti- ice and de ice. Ani ice prevents the ice from building. up. And the LER 60 has, from what I. understand, electrical heated tail. surfaces. So, if it's as warm as. possible, it could still be hit with. this super cooled air and not be. overcome it in the tail plane. I'm less.

worried about the wings. You know, in. the DC9, when we would run the anti- ice, it. would heat the wings for uh 20 minutes. and then you hit a little button and it. would cycle the tail and put all that. hot air into the tail for two and a half. minutes. Well, every experienced DC9. pilot I knew didn't wait 20 minutes when. you were in icing. You were hitting that. button every 10 minutes because we're. more worried about the tail plane ice. >> And so this may have developed too. quickly for the crew to recognize and. react. Remember, you can't barely even. see the wing tips on this airplane, yet. alone see the tail. And your only.

indication of ice typically is what you. see around your windshield and your. windshield wipers and what is building. up there. >> All right, I got to say something real. quick. Big announcement. So, for all of. you out there who have been supporting. me over the years, supporting the. projects I've been a part of for over. the years, first of all, thank you so. much. You guys have been amazing. We. have the best fan base there is. And I. thought, why don't we do something? Why. don't we switch things up? Why don't you. ask me the questions for a change, right? So, what we're doing is we're. giving a few fans the chance to meet. with me virtually, one-on-one, to ask. about anything, the cases I've covered,

behind the scenes, at Sidebar, prime. crime, really anything you've always. wanted to know. To enter, you sign up. for Long Crime Plus. You click the link. below, you submit your question for a. chance to be featured in an exclusive. Just Ask Jesse special the week of. Thanksgiving, and right now you can get. 25% off an annual Law and Crime Plus. subscription. Just got to use promo code. Just Ask Jesse. Just $44.99 for the. year. Just Ask Jesse. Hope you can check. it out and I really look forward to. talking to all of you. Thanks so much. >> One thing I read about is that the.

aircraft's uh electrically heated. horizontal stabilizer that they should. look into this. that you should. investigate this. Why? >> That would be this surface. That would. be this surface right here, the leading. edges of the of the wing. Horizontal. stabilizer electrically heated. Does it. have enough power to maintain a high. enough temperature to keep the ice from. forming. It's not a deicer. It's. designed as an anti-icer. A deicer is. like uh you see on piston and turborop. airplanes and some small light jets.

where it inflates boots on the leading. edge of the wing and those boots expand, crack all the leading edge ice and comes. off. Those are deicing systems. Anti-. ice systems prevent it from building. That's hot leading edges uh either. electrically or with uh hot bleed air. from the engine. It's not engine exhaust. air. It's engine intake air that's being. heated to 435 degrees plus centigrade in. most jet engines. And so anti- ice is. great, but sometimes you don't have the. capabilities to um in the airplane to to.

protect yourself from that serious and. icing conditions. And couple that with. the high G- loads that they were. probably experiencing, the airplane. obviously became very uncontrollable. very quickly. And you know, if we go. back to that tail plane surface, we'll. know uh not from the actual crash site. where the airplane impacted the ground. and the amount of damage that was done, but finding those pieces 1.3 to 3.8. miles away according to today's briefing. from those components that far from the.

crash site, they travel quite a great. distance without them. You know, they're. going to flutter down um probably blow. up and down a little bit and get pushed. around. So they may not be exactly below. where the track was. However, meergists. are able to look at those components and. see what actually failed based on just. the microscopic inspections of how did. that how did that component did they. snap off? Did they shear off? We'll. learn a lot from that about the control. inputs and knowing what the engineering.

is on the airplane. uh for strength. For. example, LAR is certified at two and a. half or three G's positive, probably a. half a G negative in in the part 25. transport category that it operates. under. So, you know, we'll know a lot, but it's going to take a while to get. there. >> In other words, in other words, there. has to be a determination whether there. was a structural issue to begin with. versus whether there was human error or. whether there was a combination of. different factors including whether that. contributed this. And and just to be. clear, you know, I want to play one more.

thing from the NTSB. This is where. Chapman was asked whether weather. remains a key focus. >> That's ongoing and I don't I don't think. we have enough information yet to be. able to say one way or another, >> but weather does remain a major. >> weather is certainly a key focus of the. investigation. >> I think people are wondering, and we've. talked about this on a previous episode, the role of the pilot, the role of the. co-pilot, whether there was human error. at this point, do you lean a certain. way? Are there red flags that you're. looking at? Are there things a part of.

this investigation? I know you're not a. part of it, but are there part are there. aspects to it that you're saying. something doesn't make sense to me? >> Yeah, we have our knowns and we have our. unknowns. We can figure out what the. crew's training records were. We can. figure out what they've been doing for. the last two weeks. Were they overly. fatigued? Have they had long day after. long day with short nights between them? We can figure out how much they've. actually flown. Probably what they had. to eat the last couple days. um we'll be. able to find that if they were using. their company credit cards to buy meals.

Um we'll know what the maintenance. records are at some point on the. airplane and were there any structural. issues with the tail and there been any. repairs, any cracking, any airworthiness. directives or service bulletins that. would have to service bulletins on a on. a charter jab or corporate Jeff have to. be complied with or the manufacturer. doesn't work the airplane. So there's a. lot of things we don't happen to know. right now, but we will know. And if we. find out we had a generally sound. airplane and we had a qual wellqualified. crew, did they just penetrate um a.

thunderstorm that was unservivable and. did it because either they couldn't go. around it due to air traffic limitations. and they couldn't get over it. I'll tell. you at Northwest and ultimately I. retired from Delta Airlines, below. 10,000 ft we stay 5 miles away from. thunderstorms and between 10,000 and. 25,000 ft we stay 10 miles away. and. above 25,000 ft. We stay 20 miles away. from them. >> So just because the clouds are there and. you don't see anything on your radar, you know, for precipitation, remember.

the radar doesn't see turbulence. It. only sees moisture and ice crystals. don't really show up very well. Super. cooled water droplets were, but you have. to be looking down with the radar and. then looking up with the radar to see. whether or not is there precipitation. above or below you. Is it climbing? And. so that's a lot of things to have going. on when you're already in busy airspace. descending in in a line of. thunderstorms. Personally, I always gave. them as wide a birth as possible. I fly. an extra 20 minutes in a jet to give my. passengers and my airplane a smooth ride.

because I'd rather stay in the clear. Radar is nice, but nothing like the old. we call it the Mark One eyeball. If I. look out and see a big white billowing. cloud, I don't want to fly through it. because it's going to be bumpy. >> Makes sense. Makes sense. Um, and look, there's so much talk about the inflight. voice recorder, what it would have, if. it could be recorded. But I also. understand, and you might have mentioned. this, but I just want to make sure our. audience understands that there is data. that can be recovered from other um.

onboard engine and system monitors. What. exactly could that be? >> Well, the the Lear 60s were certified. with a digital flight data recorder. It. records a certain set of parameters and. what all is fed into that I don't know. on that particular airplane but. depending on what avionics the the. cockpit suite of electronic equipment. and the monitoring a lot of that. information every time it hits a a Wi-Fi. somewhere at an airport uh it will. download automatically and go back to. the manufacturer. So, we might be able.

to find out what the control inputs were. like uh from the flight data recorder or. from just the data that was saved in the. avionics, you know, literally in what. would be a little tiny flash drive. that's in the airplane that's just. uploading and downloading data. If that. survived or if that information is out. there, we'll have a real good idea of. what this unfortunate crew. And I just. my heart goes out to their families and. and the passengers. And really, aviation. is a small business. I know people who. know the members of this crew and.

they're saying they they were good ones. So, it's a real heartbreaker. >> It's awful. It's really really awful. when you think about the victims, when. you think about the audio, when you look. at the crash, every aspect of it. Now, >> Captain, before I let you go, our. understanding is the NTSB says that a. preliminary report is expected in about. a month. The full investigation could. take more than a year. What can we. expect from, you know, what we'll see in. the next month to what we'll see in the. next year?

>> Sure. >> We'll we'll probably see daily briefings. because this is a crash of this national. importance. We so seldom see a crash of. this nature. You see runway overruns, you see uh high-speed, you know, they. land too fast and and overrun a runway. like happened with the uh 21 air down in. Miami here recently. Those things they. attract attention, but when someone's. life is just snuffed away so quickly and. you know prominent family in their. community, two crew members and a and a. known reliable airplane, everyone wants.

to know what happened. And so what we. can expect over the next few weeks is as. they glean data and they can figure out. things and look at the components, they'll give us a pretty good idea about. where the prior to the preliminary. report where they think the. investigation is going. and I've been. involved in several major airline crash. investigations in a support and a and a. research role. And I can tell you. though, the NTSB is really good at what. they do. And them being the lead agency, uh, not having any other agencies. running in there saying but but but. there's this, uh, chances are this was.

just a very tragic crash and hopefully. we can figure out what occurred, figure. out what that link was and make sure we. don't break that, you know, we don't. break that link in the chain again. leading to another crash. It's a It's a. good point. Um, [music] Captain David. Funk, thank you so much for taking the. time. Really appreciate it. >> Honor to be with you. >> That's all we have for you right now. here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so. much for joining us. I'm Jesse [music]. Weber. I'll speak to you next time.