True Crime Deep Dive ft. Ashley Flowers | Khloé In Wonder Land

Ashley Flowers I am jazzed to talk a. little bit of true crime. [music] Kevin. and I, we are obsessed. >> I don't know how healthy this is to be. that obsessed. You want to put your tin. foil hat on. I say crime junkies are. born, not made. If I could build a moat, I would have a moat with alligators. Our. brains like love a mystery. How is. someone here one second, gone the next? I don't think the story [music] we've. gotten is the real story at all. In my. gut, do I think she's alive? I do. This. is insane [music] that it's not getting. any traction. Right now I'm working on. like the weirdest catfishing story.

Today's day and age, [music] the fact. that we're still catfishing. Do you. think this ever turns into an unhealthy. obsession? >> I wanted to find a way to give back. We're not just telling these stories, we're working with law enforcement, we're working with families. Do you ever. get afraid like [music] maybe I said too. much? The dark happens in the shadows. Yes, it does. This could go off the rails. Really [laughter] though, really. Sort. of fine with, too. Thank you for coming here today. I am so.

excited [music] to sit and talk to you. >> Thank you. I am jazzed to talk a little. bit of true crime. I am so excited. So, I want you, if you can, just tell the. audience, how did you get into true. crime? I say crime junkies are born, not. made. True. I. >> Very true. I like there was never a. moment or like a case like I don't have. a personal experience. My mom was a. crime junkie, her mom before her. >> [laughter]. >> So, I feel. >> generational. Seriously, I feel like I. just like grew up in it and you You.

know, it was it started when I was young. with like we were reading Nancy Drew and. then Agatha Christie and then I feel. like the first time I really like got. into true crime as it was a fiction is. we were me and my best friend Brit who I. do the show with, we were tabloid height. when JonBenét happened. And for us to. realize like, "Oh my gosh, this could. happen happen to someone our age that. looks like us." It was so big. And so, that's when that's when like this whole. other world opened up and I have just. been obsessed ever since. I can't help.

it. So, my sister Kim and I, we are. obsessed and I don't know how healthy. this is to be that obsessed. And I was. so much more obsessed before I had my. daughter. You feel like you've gone the. other way? So, I went the other way for. a minute. I was like, "I need a break.". Or I was very choosy with the true crime. I would watch. It could have nothing to. do with kids. >> Yeah, so many moms tell us like if it's. a kid episode, like I can't listen. Yep. Which like I I totally get cuz I've got. a daughter now and I think that it like.

it Doesn't it change, don't you think? >> Your view of the world, I think. completely changes. But I keep telling. everyone. I feel like I was actually pushed more. towards listening. Like it was. definitely harder, but the same reason I listen to. everything else, it's like I can't. protect her if I don't know what to. protect her from. Before when I used to. watch true crime, there's not even a. thought that any of this would happen to. me. >> Really? Never. I'm like, I will call. those people up. >> [laughter]. >> Everyone's going to find me. Like it. just it wasn't a thought.

When you have kids, then you're like, okay. At least for me. Mhm. The world is. so dark, it's so scary. Everyone is so. messed up. >> Mhm. And I'm not going to put myself in. any of these situations. I'm going to. have all the security I can. Like the. alarm systems, the shattering glass. Like I have so many things that I don't. think I had an alarm when before I had. kids. Like who knows? It's like Dude, there's no way you didn't have an alarm. before you had your kids. >> I'm probably Your whole life is like a. different life. I'm probably. exaggerating, but the thought I put into. things now, it is Fort Knox. If I could.

build a moat, I would have a moat with. alligators and great whites. >> I keep telling people I want to recreate. Did you watch The Village, the M. Night. Shyamalan movie? No. >> Why is no one seen The Village? Is this. a horror movie? Oh, yeah. >> Yeah, cuz he's horror. I don't do horror. cuz I don't I can do true crime. I don't. want you to like scare me. Okay. >> I can suspense. >> Okay, but you don't do a boo. Well, I'm. going to ruin M. Night Shyamalan for. people, so spoiler alert. >> Okay, spoiler alert. >> They have this like it's set in like.

this like 1800s village and there's this. like monster that lives in the woods. Already terrified. And you find out at. the end there is no monster. It's like. modern day that this like community came. together to like create a fake 1800s so. that their kids could be safe and I was. like, I want to do that but the '90s. >> like that. Yes. Where it's just like you. get like a new CD and like AIM. >> Yes. Very early on. Like that that I'd. be jazzed about. >> This has nothing to do with true crime, but over the weekend I just made a list. So my dad had a tradition that once a.

week we would watch a movie of his. choosing. Okay. And which I hated at the. time. >> Obviously. I'm like, I'm not watching. these old movies. But now people. reference the movies that he made me. watch. I'm like, oh I I know that. reference. So I made a list and I went I. Googled like '90s movies. Yes. The like. now and then, The Baby-Sitters Club. There's so many great movies. I don't. just went on a tangent. But I feel like. I need your list because I grew up in. like oh like deeply religious like.

borderline cult and so like I missed. like this whole era. Stop. You couldn't. watch those movies? No, I couldn't. >> could be in true crime? >> watch Harry Potter. I like I'm just. watching Harry Potter for the first time. with my daughter. >> Oh my well, that's a good experience. >> Oh, it's Santa Claus. Yeah, but you can. watch true crime. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah, makes sense, right? >> Love it. Balance. Yeah. Okay. No. judgement. We listen and we don't judge. That's what I do. >> Oh, we're out now. I judge a lot. >> Okay. So there wasn't one case that like. turned you on Mhm. to true crime. It was.

just Was it more that so many things. couldn't be solved or could be solved? I. mean, I'm definitely drawn to unsolved. case cases over solved ones. I mean, I. think that it there's like a there's. like two things that are like constantly. drawing me to these. And I think in like. the solved cases, it's we have a saying Crime Junkie's. that like we're not paranoid, we're. pre-paranoid. Like I I wanted to look. for all of the things that like if I. were ever in the situation, what would I. do? What led up to this? What do I look.

out for in a relationship? Like what are. the red flags? So, in a lot of the. solved cases, I feel like what we find. is education, self-like preservation. And then in the unsolved cases, I mean, I my dream was to like be a detective. I'm like sure if like I can get the. right case file, if I can talk to the. right person, like surely I can solve. the mystery. And I think our our our. brains like love a mystery. I don't. think it manifests as true crime maybe. for everyone, but like we look for order.

where there isn't any. And I mean, like. it's like missing person cases. I'm. obsessed with like how is someone here. one second, gone the next? Nancy. Guthrie, I mean, is that not What do you. think? Heartbreaking? >> Heartbreaking. I don't No, I'm just like. are you This is 2026. There is. nothing? Like we don't that it's. mind-blowing. >> even believe that, but I'm also like. very conspiratorial. So, like. >> Me, too. I don't know if I know enough. about this case, but like all the things. I was reading about the brother-in-law.

and that kind of stuff, I'm like ugh. We. did a whole like episode in our fan club. where I was like, you guys, there's like. weird stuff happening in the background. >> The ransom notes going to all the media. outlets first. >> know. How weird was that? >> I know. It's so much and I just I can't. understand that in 2026 there's not, like you said, that's what I don't. believe that there's not one piece of. information. I just they're not telling. us. >> telling us. Which is like so common with. law enforcement, right? As we work with. so many families. Like we're not just.

telling these stories, we're working. with law enforcement, we're working with. families. And it is wild how they like. are going through the most like. traumatic experience of their life. There's no resolution. There's this. person who they love who's out there in. the world missing or murdered. And they. they're expected to just like you have. to pay the bills. You have a contract. You have to go back to work and the. world just like keeps moving even though. yours has like completely stopped and. it's so odd. It's also how people feel. like the anger towards the world when. someone passes away close to them. And.

every like it's the acknowledgement that. they're like, "Oh, the world just still. everything still goes on." And I'm like, "It does. It sucks.". >> Yeah. But yeah, the most It's the. strangest feeling. Speaking of that you. are gravitating more towards cold cases. You've actually yourself solved over 20. cold cases. Um not because I'm like out. there boots on the ground, but our. nonprofit has. So. >> Thanks. We So much of like when I got. into this, I wanted to find a way to give back. So.

even as a consumer of true crime, I. always felt weird taking this as. entertainment when I'm like, "These are. the This is the worst time in a family's. life." So even before I ever created. this content, I was volunteering like. with my local crime stoppers. Like, "How. do I just give back in a small way?" And. then as I created content, it was, you. know, bigger ways and bigger ways. And. we do we have the team of amazing. investigative journalists and we're. doing amazing work and some of the work. that we're doing on these cases is. actually moving them forward. But I also.

kept finding over and over that I'd get. to these agencies and they're like, "Yeah, we have suspect DNA in this. murder. We just like can't We don't have. the funds to test it." Isn't that crazy? >> talking like $5,000 between like getting. a murderer off the streets or not.". And so we we started a nonprofit called. Season of Justice. And that nonprofit has gone on I think. they've now awarded like $2 million in. grants that have gone to like, you know, 250 300 different cases.

>> Wow. And you know, it takes a long time. Sometimes, you know, you hit a a end, but we've they've solved a ton of cold. cases through that organization. And. it's it's it's been really amazing to. see. And I think that a lot of people. are looking at that and and changing the. way that they think about like true. crime content. Cuz it can it can feel. everyone I feel like it gets a bad rap. that it's just like this exploitative. voyeuristic thing. And I I don't think. it has to be. No, and I also what a. wonderful legacy that you get to leave.

behind. I know you said you're not the. one like boots hitting the ground, but. you're the one making it all happen and. making that a possibility and that it. for 20 families or more than 20 for them. to have that closure. It's so so. beautiful. >> Yeah. Do you have one case that's a cold. case that like you wish you can solve, but like have you tried that hasn't been. able to be solved? Like. JonBenét for example. Are you like. there's just no. way this still isn't solved yet? It is.

weird, isn't it? It is weird. I am. obsessed with the JonBenét case. I mean. again, that's like since I was little, I. followed it. >> like Kim and I are too. That and the. Maddie Oh, Madeleine McCann. >> Yes. >> Portugal, yep. JonBenét is one that I. mean I just I in the last like year, year and a half, I like I sat down with. her dad. I've done like a ton I I. continue to get people who write in to. me or talk to me who who have. information on that. And that's. something that I think I'll constantly. follow like throughout my career. Right. I don't think there's just like one case.

that everyone always asks like what's. the one? Like you would solve the one. and it's it to me it's like whatever one. all of them, but whatever one I'm like. the deepest into at the moment. And we. just did this uh a couple of episodes. this series out of Arizona that hasn't. gotten I don't think a ton of like. mainstream media. I think they're like. to the area, people kind of know about. this case, but it was this dad who was. on FaceTime with his kids at the office. And all of a sudden they hear this like.

commotion, they hear this like bang and. he's like, "It's dark." And they go. running to their mom, and they end up. finding out that he was shot while he. was on FaceTime with them. And the police get to his office, and. it's just him and his business partner. in the office. And he is shot execution style. His. business partner is fine, just like a. little bump on the noggin. Okay. And. they say two masked men, and there's. video of of two masked men coming in and. shooting him.

And the weird part is a couple of days. after he is killed, this business. partner comes to his wife, Alicia, and. he's like, "Hey, I need you to sign, you. know, the insurance policies for your. family. Like, he owned half the. business, you'll get $500,000.". And she's like, "Listen, I don't Right, let me bury my husband first. >> Right. >> Like, give me a beat, and. then I'll come back to you." And so, she. goes in her husband's email, she's like. looking, she didn't know really a lot. about the insurance policies. And she's. already like not loving Dave. Like,

there's been some like disputes. And she. finds that there is $8 million. of life insurance taken out on her. husband for their HVAC company. Okay, well, all roads point to She gets a. lawyer, and they're like, "Hey, let's. make sure we have the paperwork in. order. We're going to make sure the. company's split 50/50, that you get half. of that." They get everything in order, they go to sign the paperwork, and the. insurance company is like, "What do you. mean? You already signed the paperwork.". We have your signature, the money has. been paid out to his business partner, Dave Sweetman. >> No. Mhm. So, she has to fight tooth and.

nail to get some kind of settlement that. they decide on. And. his his case is unsolved. Yeah, those. things just don't make sense. No, they. rack my brain, cuz I'm like, "What are. we talking about? I am a civilian." And. I'm like, "Hello?" My Yes, I'm pointing. fingers, but it's obvious. So, we looked. into Dave this his business partner, Dave Sweetman, and we're like, "Who is. this guy?" Like, as part of the episode. And weirdly, nowhere in Nick's case file.

does this show up, but we found out that. Dave Sweetman had a wife named Laura. Sweetman, who 7 years before Nick. Cordova died, Mhm. Laura Sweetman dies. mysteriously. Mhm. in her home after she had filed for. divorce from him. And her case was ruled undetermined. manner and cause of death. There was not. even a newspaper article about this. woman's death. >> all the time. >> It's unbelievable. >> All the time. So, those are the ones.

that I'm like very deep into. We just. did like three parts on Nick Cordova's. case, Laura Sweetman's case, and then we. just got someone in the Maricopa County. Sheriff's Office in Arizona has to be a. fan because they released to us all this. audio from a domestic violence incident. >> No. So, then we dropped all the audio in. our feed. And so, I'm like, I feel like. I'm like hot on the trail. We're like. getting like active tips on this. Which. normally, the stuff we do is like a lot. older. I'm like, I feel like this is. like happening in real time. So, kind of wild. >> I mean, I'm not like smiling I'm happy.

I'm like, it's just so exciting that. potentially you'll be able to help this. family cuz that is I'm excited for. Alicia. I'm excited for Laura's family. because she like she can't get police to. do anything. Like, Laura's case has. never been investigated really like. since 2013. >> Well, it's like that I think they were. in Arizona, too. Lori Vallow. Yes, oh my. god. Lori Vallow. Oh, yeah. >> And she was hiding in Hawaii, her and. her new husband, but the brother was. killing everyone. Yeah, that's bananas. There's some wild. >> But no, when like three of the men in.

her life were dead, three of his wives. were dead or whatever, the women in his. life. Then, for the brother that was. doing all the murders to die of a heart. attack randomly, right? >> Yeah. Wink wink. What are we talking. about? The poor kids. It's horrible. [music]. You guys know I recently got a puppy, Peppermint, and I'm not even going to. pretend I'm normal about it. I fully. accept that I've become one of those dog. parents. The kind who takes way too many. photos, talks to their dog like they're.

a person, and somehow she ends up having. a better daily routine than I do. Peppermint already has multiple beds. around the house, a rotation of toys, and honestly, I catch myself checking on. her like she's a toddler. But, if you're. a dog parent, I feel like you get it. They really do become a part of the. family. And if anyone understands that. level of obsession, it's Ollie. They're. just as obsessed with your dog as you. are. Ollie makes fresh food for dogs. that's developed by real chefs and.

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instead of trying to override it. And we've worked out a special offer for. my audience. Receive 30% off your first. subscription order. Go to. armra.com/chloe. or enter chloe to get 30% off your first. subscription order. That's a r m r a.com/chloe. Sometimes I'm just like, there'll be a. case where I'm like, everything's there. How are we like even like. >> not paying attention to it? >> Yeah. And then And then you've got like. I know you, your sister have worked with. like a ton of like wrongful convictions. And then I'm like, but you can convict.

someone on like absolutely nothing. I. think about that all the time. >> Like it really just It shows you just. kind of how broke Not broke Well, broken. the justice system is, but just how like. it's it differs from like state to. state, jurisdiction to jurisdiction, judge to judge. >> Yes. Where and I think that's the thing. that has bummed me out the most. People. are like, "How do you live in this. content all the time?" And I'm like, "It's not Some people are built for it.". But I was like, "It's not the content. that that depresses me." I was like, "I. There's always going to be bad people. out there doing bad things." The thing.

that has really gotten to me doing this. for 8 and 1/2 years is like, "Oh, I. actually used to believe that there was. a system in place that would right the. wrongs and catch the bad guys and fix. the things." And I just don't like know. that I believe in that system anymore. And that's something that I relate to. cuz doing prison reform stuff with Kim, I mean, it's Kim's ship and she's. driving it, but I've been a part with. her on so many journeys, but realizing. that it's not always about getting the. right person. They just want to pin it.

on someone. >> Yeah. They're getting a win. Yes, and. that's so devastating cuz I'm like, "Wait, so you don't care that the killer. or burglar, whoever, is still out there. You just want to make your town feel. safe by. saying that they got the guy.". >> really unbelievable. And like you said. about even the DNA testing, I've watched like Law & Order and all. this stuff and it's like you see these. shows, they move in this fast-paced. episode beginning, middle, end. It takes. months, if not years, if not at all to. get the DNA testing. And like in my.

head, I'm like, "What do you mean? Just. test them and in 48 hours we're going to. get the results back, right?". >> It's crazy. There's a missing person's. case out of New Mexico right now, Melissa Cassias. Day by day, so I'm like, you could sway me. Someone. did something to her, she walked away. There's so many weird elements to this. case, but there is this like spot of. blood that's found in her house that. people were suspicious of. They do like. the presumptive testing that says, "Yes, this is blood, but we don't know if it's. hers, we don't know what it is. We have. to send it off for testing.". She went missing in June of 2025.

>> Okay. It is almost a year now, and they. still don't have the results back from. that. >> So, why? How? Like that I oh, I don't. know. I don't know. I am I'm like so. what are what are you hiding? Like who's. involved? I'm very I love a conspiracy. I'm like yeah I'm I will feed into that. Do you have any thoughts on that Amy. Bradley case? I really think she's still. alive. I do too. It's so funny I right. before it came out. on Netflix cuz I've been following that. case for like years and years but.

obviously so many people like really got. invested when Netflix did their thing. and I had a meeting at Netflix and I was. kind of in the room with the people who. who were in charge of like all their. true crime stuff and and who were making. it and they were like fighting in the. room like they all had different. theories and some people were like. hardcore fighting that like she just. fell overboard and I was like that. that's like the only thing I don't. believe happened. Correct. >> I I think she Do you think the picture. was her? Yeah. I do. I do. I do too. >> I mean when they especially when they do.

the comparisons and like it's with AI. technology too. I mean. I do. It just is like it was so the only. thing I was like it was so brazen. Like. you didn't think that that this would. become a big story? I mean but I guess. they got away with it so Well, not even. that where my conflict is with that. So, let's say she is alive Okay. and I want. her to be but now we've publicly. admitted where they think she is and. what they think she's doing and so I. don't think that's going to go over too. well for cuz I'm assuming if if the.

kidnappers abductors whoever have her. they might not be watching it. Someone. they know is watching it and saying hey. they're on your tail. They're going to. move her around. So, that's the only. thing where I feel. bad that it got so big and public. I. think that everyone's intentions were in. the right place but I don't think people. thought that through all the way. Do you. think that they were actually closing in. though cuz I think that's the that's the. balance or the hard part where I'm. always like yeah but it's been you know. we deal with cases where I'm like okay.

but it's been 30 years, 40 years. Like, you had all this time to do something. If you haven't done it now, well, it's. the only thing we haven't tried. I think. true, I get that, but also knowing like. every holiday she would go to the. website and they were able to find the. IP address and not that they knew the. exact location, but they knew proximity. and that what the island isn't like this. massive island. I'm like, just. walk around. >> Yeah, you could be there like, honestly, if you like would have put out a. bulletin, I think you could have gotten. the Crime Junkies to do we would have. all gone on like a week vacation to like.

find Amy Bradley Crime Junkie trip. >> you guys should still try to do that. I. really think you should. So, I don't. know, but in my gut do I think she's. alive? I do. My sister and I, we spoke to the family. after the documentary and they they. definitely think she's still alive and. have high hopes. Yeah, and I I you know, most families do, but I this is one. where I'm like, yeah, I think they're. like their hopes are in the right place. I think that that she's out there still. I think that. there's a good chance of finding her. It's just like, you know, who is she now.

>> Yeah. all these years later? I agree. with that. >> But I think there's an Amy to find, for. sure. You said you grew up religious. where it was almost like cult-like. Did. that impact your. I'm going to say obsession with true. crime? >> [laughter]. >> Like, do you think that pushed you in. that direction at all? Did it filter you. at all? I kind of wonder, not because of. like the elements of like growing up in. there, but to your point of like, you. could watch Harry Potter, but you could. watch this. It was like, it was that. like that outlet of like, while everyone.

else is getting to listen to like. Britney Spears and like do all this. stuff that I couldn't do, I got true. crime. And so, like I went all in on. like the one secular thing I could have. >> [laughter]. >> Cuz it's all you could have. So, I get. that. Is your mom still into true crime? Oh, yeah. Okay. >> My mom's still a big crime junkie. I. love that though. Like, my mom, she. doesn't really Oh, she does. She likes. Dateline every Friday. That's her thing. But she won't get as like knee-deep as. like Kim and I will. We'll spiral into.

these dark holes of. >> Well, cuz the Dateline is good, I think, for like the casual viewer, because. Dateline usually comes in like a neat. package. Like there's there's an end. You know who did it. You can You don't. want to You don't spiral so much. Whereas like I think that's the. difference. Being a crime junkie is like. I want to I want to argue with someone. about the case. I want to talk theories. I want to I want to spiral. So, there's. the Dateline audience and then there's. Crime Junkies and we do overlap. once in. a while. to love an argument over a case. of any sort. For people that are.

maybe too obsessed with crime. Like do. you think I know you're like what is. that mean? >> I literally was like who Who's too. obsessed? But do you think this ever. turns into an unhealthy obsession where. people become paranoid at all like hours. of the day as opposed to being like. vigilant and using these tools for them. I think it can. I mean I've heard I've. had people be like I had to stop. listening for a little while because it. was becoming all-consuming. Yes, some. people are like just built where they. can like handle it a little more. I.

think people can like come in and come. out. And I also think it's why like. we're really intentional about doing. like different types of episodes because. there are so many important like lessons. or educational pieces that I want people. to hear. Or about to do an episode about. AI kidnappings which the scams which I. don't know if you've like heard of. But. I I've heard of some I don't know if. this is what you're talking about, but. where like either. people are pretending to be someone else. through AI, like changing voices, all of.

that stuff. >> There was a woman who was with her. daughter at a dance class and her. husband and her other daughter were like. on a ski vacation. She's like sitting in. the car waiting for her and she gets. this phone call and it's her daughter on. the phone freaking out and is like like. mom I did something bad. I'm so sorry. She's crying crying crying and heaving. She's like I know my daughter's cry. And. this guy gets on the phone and is like. you have to bring this money to X, Y, and Z location. And as she's got like people around her. trying to figure out what's going on, one of them calls her husband, and he's. like, "What are you talking about? I'm. with my I'm with our daughter right.

now.". And this is becoming a huge new scam. where they're taking a couple of bites. from people's social media where they're. talking or my podcast where I'm talking. all day, every day, and creating voice. models to extort people for kidnapping. So, there are like. >> heard about that. >> different types of cases. So, I do think. that some people can get really. paranoid, I hope they like keep coming. back. Right now, I'm working on like the. weirdest catfishing story I've ever. encountered. >> in today's day and age the fact that.

we're still catfishing is crazy, but I. need to hear that. >> of wild. Okay, so this one is 2010. So, I know it's hard for people to remember, but this is like we've got dating. websites, but no one's swiping. So, this. is website time, 2010, and this woman. named Anna Akbari, she's a PhD, she's. beautiful, she's smart, she's engaging. She is online dating, and she meets this. guy named Ethan. And things are like, you know, online. dating is everyone's like, "Yo, what's.

up? Let's meet." The conversations are. just like duds. And she meets Ethan who. went to MIT and who wants to talk about. politics and culture and movies, and. they it's just like the most amazing. conversation she's ever had. And she's. up all hours of the night. I mean, like. I think 42, 72 hours straight, just like. talking to him. And it is this like. weird chain of events where at first. they can't meet because she is like. going on vacation. And then there's like. this wild snowstorm. They're in New York. City, and it's just like thing after.

thing. And some of it is on her, so. she's like not even suspicious at first. But then, she starts, "Okay, we've we've. got a we've got to meet in person at. some point." And you know, there's. excuse after excuse, and. 2 months in, she's like getting really. like, "Okay, something is up here. And. Ethan. all of a sudden has cancer. And it's. like the telltale signs, like anyone. who's watched Catfish, like you know, and then he gets manipulative. He's. turning it on her. Why like why can't. you just be supportive? And she's like,

let me come be there and be supportive. with you. He's like, no, I don't want. you to see me like this. And. so she she is so suspicious two months. in that she starts like like I'm going. to. I'm going to figure out who Ethan is. And the school he said that he went to. for high school, MIT, she's like, I. actually know someone who went to both. And she reaches out to this guy, and the. guy is like, you know, it's so weird. Someone else reached out to me to ask. about this guy. Oh, that's weird. >> Mhm. So she goes to this other woman.

Turns out this woman has the same. interaction with Ethan and has been like. trying to meet up for even longer, but. they live out of state. And they kind of like team up. And they. together realize that there was like. this third woman who Ethan would always. kind of use against them, his ex, his uh. his ex from like London or something. British They call her British Anna. They're like, maybe she's actually real. And so they find her. She has been in. this like years-long. relationship with Ethan, never met, and. it is like it's not just.

that he won't meet them. It's like the. amount of manipulation and control and. it's not He never asked for money. He. just like takes all their time, all. their attention. I mean, I don't know. how he was doing this three times. because the messages are all day, every. day. But they come together, and this is. where it's like a catfish story like. I've never heard because like I've heard. every catfish story. And they find out. that Ethan is this woman named Emily. Slutsky. Like you couldn't make that You. couldn't make it up. That's her real. name. You couldn't make it up. Stop. Well, I would be the catfish too if that.

was my name. She Well, they so that This. that's the crazy part, right? Anytime I. hear about catfish catfishing, they're. like these like sad lonely people who. just like wish they had a different. life. Okay, so she really went to MIT. Oh, wow. She is now the assistant. Okay. >> She's the assistant medical director. over women's health cuz she's she's an. OB/GYN. And how does she have time for this? >> Who's actively like taking care of women. all day every day. They have reported. her to her medical school, to the.

chairman at their hospital, and. everyone's like, "No." Cuz they've saved. every message, and it's like it's. twisted. I don't know like it's like a. game for her. How is she doing the voice? Well, before. she wasn't. She wouldn't get on the. phone or she would like they would talk. to Ethan's sister who would be her. >> Got it. And she swears she's not doing. it anymore. But I'm like with AI being. what it is now, we just talked about AI. But also the addiction this is. And this. was all consuming. And like I think all. of us all of me I mean now I'm so. invested. I've been I've been working. with Anna Akbari, so she wrote a whole.

book about this called there there is no. Ethan. I bought the rights to it cuz I'm. like deeply obsessed. And I've got our investigative team. looking into. where Emily went to high school, like. how this is like manifesting, is she. still doing this? Like is. do her patients know this? Right. >> Like you're going to go see someone to. do your pap smear or like deliver your. baby. No, you're unwell. Yes, you should. not be doing that. >> wild That is crazy. >> So, she after the book came out, she she. went by her married name, Emily Marantz.

Smart in general. But well, she's going. to change it again. I don't know. >> Right. >> These weren't like these were like. really brilliant smart women. that Ethan, Emily was targeting. And I. mean I like what I love about the the. story too is like it it can be anyone. It's not like you don't like you're not. a sad person if you fall for something. like this. This happens, and it is like. the people I mean I swear there's like. mind games, like the way they talk about. like mind control and keeping you up and. sleep deprivation and.

Oh, for sure. >> happen to anyone. And I know people get. like, "Oh, how? How does it happen?" And. it's just you you also believe what you. want to believe, right? Like them dating. it's hard out there. >> they're getting these people at very. vulnerable times. They really [music]. are. This episode is brought to you by Opill, the first over-the-counter daily birth. control pill available in the US. I think one thing that doesn't get. talked about enough is the mental load. of managing everyday life. All the little things that you have to. plan, schedule, remember, it adds up.

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aware of your surroundings, or. I mean, we we have Crime Junkie life. rules that have like come up over the. course of eight episodes. Yeah, our life. rules. And some of them are like, I. mean, like basic ones that it's not a. thing to do, but it's like, you never. know anyone ever. Like, and it's that. idea that you don't know what happens. behind closed doors, you don't know how. people are going to behave when they. feel cornered or in a bad situation. This idea that it can't happen here or. happen to me. Most crime happens by. someone who you know. Like it's not it's.

not that random serial killer that we're. all the most afraid of. It's like people. who are in your life. We talk a lot. about like you know, like don't stay in. certain places, avoid like certain. areas. We've got like if you're ever in. a situation, never take a polygraph, always get a lawyer. I don't care if you. think it makes you look guilty, it will. be the thing that keeps you out of. prison. So we've got our like Crime. Junkie life rules. And we also. we also [laughter] created our like if I. go missing folder because. you know, we realized how.

little sometimes police will push or. sometimes they even know. And so it's. literally like this file that we've. gotten people who've reached out and be. like this actually like saved my loved. one. It's just like a list of like if I. go missing, these are the things to do. And we're we're working on more and more. resources like that cuz I found so many. families. Nobody prepares. to be a true crime episode. And so many families you hope and pray. that law enforcement are going to take. care of you. But like I said, we're. finding more and more that's not the. case and people are having to be their.

own investigator, their own advocate. And so we're trying more and more to. create resources to be like, I'm in this. impossible situation, what do I do? And. where can you find those resources? >> now the if I go missing folder is on our. website crimejunkie.com and we're going. to be building out an entire resources. tab coming soon with those like how do I. file a FOIA? How do I get records? So. what do I need to ask for? Um that I. think is going to be really helpful for. families. What case are you besides the. Arizona one that you're in the most. embedded in right now? I think it's this.

Melissa Casillas one. This woman who. went missing last year in 2025. She. left work or she dropped her husband off. at work. They work like an hour and 15. minutes away at Los Alamos National. Laboratory. And she works in a different. building than him. She normally drops. him off and then goes to her building. But, she drops him off and she drove. home for some reason. And she told her daughter that she. forgot her work badge. She was just. going to work from home, but we know. that's not true because she used her. work badge to like get in to drop him. off. Ooh. And she's seen dropping her.

sandwich off that afternoon at her. daughter's work. So, she's like alone, she's fine, she's okay. But then she just stops responding to. messages. And so, her daughter comes. home, her husband comes home from work, and they find her keys, her purse, her. wallet, and both of her her old phone. and her new phone factory wiped. And. like her iCloud account has been wiped. That is really hard to do. It is. Yeah,

that's what I hear. Really hard to do. >> That's what the agent told us. Like even. if you think you've wiped it, wait, have. you wiped your iCloud before? No. Okay. No. You spoke with an authority, so that. made me think that you had. >> [laughter]. >> we've been like. how does this still exist? And they're. like, no matter how many times you think. you delete something, like it's really. never gone. >> Yes. And so, for something to be factory. wiped, like even I mean, people do like. resets on phones all the time. That's. easy. Yeah. The iCloud reset is. strangely hard, but like come strangely.

And so, for a long time her her husband. like truly does and says all the. weirdest things to where it's easy to go. with like the old true crime trope of. like husband did it. >> Right. But then they find video footage of her. walking alone when we know he's at work, her daughter's at work, and she's. walking along the highway by herself. with a backpack. On the highway? Yeah, like which is like near their home, and. never to be seen again. That's so.

out of it? >> Nope, she was like. walking just like purposefully. Okay. Heading east to we don't know where. There was like a sighting of someone. that saw a blue truck near her, and then. when they looked back, her and the truck. were gone. So, they don't see her going. to the truck, but it's kind of like the. insinuation. And everyone wonders, like, did she. walk away? Did she. get Did something happen to her? Was she. just on a walk and then something. happened to her? Did Did someone plan. something? She Recently, there was an.

article that came out that is maybe. connecting her to all those like I don't. know if you've gotten served this the. like missing murdered scientist. Yes, the 11. So, she worked at Los Alamos. National Laboratory. No. >> She was a uh administrative assistant. When people do stuff with like big. pharma, those people go missing. I. understand because you're going to. interfere with big pharma, a. trillion-dollar industry. Cool. Isn't. this helping. our government and everything? But, I. don't think it's our government that's.

doing. >> No, I don't either. For this instance, cuz what these scientists are doing is. so helpful for our government and for. us, from what I understand. >> Yeah. So, who is doing this? I know if. it was Nancy. >> I don't know. Right. But, I [laughter]. Um I'm not the one with all the secrets. Um But, I I I don't know. It's like to. me, it's like big corporation. >> It's insane. >> It's also getting to the point where. it's like weird now, right? Like, 11. people. is like what Why isn't our government.

more interested in this? Why are we like. just like us fringe people on the. internet sounding like weirdos? It was. bizarre that like not one. acknowledgement of this. I'm like Some. of our like biggest secrets, some of the. biggest like advancements in technology. And we're talking about plasma, we're. talking about. aerospace engines, like. >> Yes. You got to be I mean, you Okay, I'm. going to send you this like this this is. what they call a Reddit thread, but it. is. Like, of these, there's one woman. who. recently they ruled her death as. suicide, but these messages came out uh. that she had sent someone that she knew.

before she died. And it's like the. craziest read. If you haven't seen these. yet, >> No. You You to send this to me. >> send [music] them to you. And like, TBD, if people want to go down the rabbit. hole, you can like link out to them. Yes, I need to read [music] this. So, few questions that I have that I've. always and I don't I know you're not. part of the police, but. for like Not yet. Not yet. The Idaho. murders. Yeah. So, Brian Kohberger, something like that.

where he. he did it. There's not a question if he. did do it or didn't do it. I have a few. questions. So, one, why are we making. like why does. anyone make the family go through this. trial, have to relive all of this? I get. it's a sentencing thing. Is it. death row or is it how long the term is, but I've always wondered if it's that. concrete, like we know this happened, why do they make the families go through. all of that? Well, they don't I guess. they don't make them. Brian Kohberger. has a right to a trial. Like, I mean.

it's this is the framework of how the. justice system is supposed to work. Like, you're supposed to be getting your. day in court for the times when. it isn't, you know, they got the wrong. person or to prevent corruption. I mean. again, I think it's it's not exactly. working as it's intended, but I also. think that like a good prosecutor. involves the family in those decisions. to where if they're going to offer a. plea deal, a good prosecutor works with. the family and they decide that. together. So, that way the family can.

decide like sometimes they they want to. go to trial because trial is what. actually will provide answers cuz. oftentimes in a plea deal situation, you. don't have to say anything. But, that's. what I heard the family so upset about. I heard that they gave them a plea deal. without the families knowing and now. he's just sitting there silently. Like, I don't have to explain anything. >> Exactly. Or I would have been like, I I. will do whatever. I need to know why the. [ __ ] you did this. Why them? I know. And. and there are this is one where I think. that they're getting a lot of backlash. because.

they took they took the deal and it's. like they're they you know they're. saying we saved taxpayer money by doing. this like it was very clear-cut. And then I mean you kind of wonder like. is the why as important in this one? I. mean he's clearly like off his rocker. like a sociopath. >> Yeah. And like those those cases are. really strange where it's like was he. you know he was clearly studying up on. this. Was he trying to commit the. perfect murder? Do we need to do the. families need to know why? I mean I. they're entitled to it but I don't know. I don't know if you would have gotten. like I is there a satisfying answer? Is.

there a satisfying why no matter what he. says it's going to be. nothing will make sense or be enough or. justify anything or I don't know. No, I. agree with you there and that's a very. good point. I understand and I don't. understand this part why judges will. issue like a gag order on the families. or anybody involved don't speak about. this to the media because we don't want. to sway the jury in any way and I. respect that privacy but also this is. 2026. The juries are going to be exposed.

to some media outlet. >> Yeah. Like for me. God forbid I was in that position I. would rather it be. like from our mouths like the truth as. opposed to who knows what other media. outlets are going to say and if it's. going to be the right information. Oh, I. agree but I think that's part of the. problem is like I don't know that in. court juries hear the full story. There's so many rules about what can be. admitted and what can't be admitted and. I mean that's why so many cases get. overturned on the defense of like poor.

counsel. It's like you're as good as. your lawyer or as good as the. investigator that your lawyer has and so. what they're trying to protect isn't. necessarily like the truth or even the. case like they're trying to protect the. case that gets presented. >> Mhm. And I I agree I think that's. frustrating like I think that we should. be able to just like lay out everything. and make a decision based on everything. not have to like jump through these. weird. loopholes that I that again I know are. there to try and like protect us and to. make sure that nobody gets railroaded.

It's just this is where it's like, "Hey, what we're doing isn't working. We. should maybe like And it's 2026. we have to update the system. >> Yes. Yes. That's what. >> with stuff like tech and all these. things that like. is it's it's like a foreign world. compared to how it was 100 years ago. I'm always fascinated about. the medium aspect. Like I know sometimes. in missing children's cases or I know. that mediums do get along. Some do work. with law enforcement. What do you feel.

about that? I'm I'm into it. So, I think. like anything. it's so sad because I feel like so many. families get taken advantage of in like. a time when like they're already going. through the worst thing. People will be. will reach out to them and exploit them. I mean like shady PIs, people who with. you know, say their dogs can do magic. when they can't. And mediums. But I like. very much believe in. something big. I just don't think that.

like the the world as we know it is just. like that black and white. And I've seen enough or had enough. experiences that I that I think that. there are some very legit people who can. tap into something. Like I've seen them. solve cases. I've seen them locate. people no one else can find. And so when. it's the right. person, the right family, the right. circumstances, they're you know, they're. not in it for anything other than trying. to solve it. And especially for the. cases that are. like you'll try anything, like why not?

>> Right. It's you know, if they're not. exploiting the family, there there. really is no harm. Right. And if you've. tried everything else, sometimes this is. like the only thing. And so I I mean. I've worked with a ton of families who. have really. really believed in it or even been like. really changed. I recently. um did you follow the Gabby Petito thing. at all? >> Yes. I recently met her stepdad and he. was saying he's like, you know, I was. always like uh I went to this, you know, something where there was this medium. and you know, it's like who someone in. the audience had someone die and he's.

like, I'm like, "Oh, okay." And he's. like, "But then after the thing, you. know, there's no cameras, there's no one. nothing, this person comes up to me and. just says something that like there's no. way they could have known.". >> And like stuff like that will happen and. I think that like it can. it can be very helpful and and sometimes. it it doesn't lead you to anything, but. it can like bring a lot of peace. >> Mhm. Which I think is its own help. I. believe in all that stuff, too. >> You know, yeah. >> I do. And I think, like you said, some. There's good doctors, there's bad. doctors, there's good lawyers, bad like. everything there's bad and good, too.

And I think some take advantage, but I. think there are some that come from a. place of good and really want to help. >> Yeah. And for that, I really appreciate. that gift. I think that's what it's here. for. You're talking about serious cases. here. Like do you ever get afraid like. maybe I said too much cuz you have so. many eyes and ears on you? I am like on. the. >> about that? >> Well, I think about it. But I actually. am on the opposite end where it's like. it's what I love about podcasting and. how quick something can come out into. the world is cuz I think that like truth.

is the best defense and like the more. people can talk about this stuff, like. that is that protects you more than. anything else. And maybe it maybe I'm. being naive, but. >> No, I agree with what you're saying. >> if you can draw attention to it, if you. can get people talking about things, putting yourself in a spotlight, putting. the issue in a spotlight, it's like the. dark happens in the shadows. Yes, it. does. So, what's next for you? So, we're. we I just hired a head of TV and film. So, as much as I love podcasting, I mean. podcasting is it will always be the.

center of what I do. Like this this. medium, it's like so wonderful, especially for investigative journalism. But there are so many stories that I. just think need to be brought to a. bigger audience. So, we just brought a. head of TV and film on to bring some of. our IP to those areas in scripted but. really like in documentaries and making. our you know crime junkie into a version. of a TV show. So I think we'll be doing. that. >> be great. >> I'm like jazz for it. I'm really like.

passionate about this like side project. I have where I want to make crime junkie. junior. So I. >> What's that? >> There well there's been like nothing. since Nancy Drew that's really like what. Nancy Drew was for me. Exactly. And I'm like I think there is. cuz I hear from moms all the time. They're like when they don't they're. like you know don't think I'm a bad mom. I let my like 10 year old listen and I'm. like I was that 10 year old. And so I'm. like there is I think there's a really. like great space for mysteries for this. content especially for the educational.

content these kids are faced with just. like a world that like I couldn't even. wrap my head around when I was that age. If we can prepare them if we can educate. them I think not talking about this. stuff is what it's what I said about the. kid episodes. It's like you got to know. what you're dealing with to know how to. prevent it to fight it. And so I think. there's a whole world of content for. like the next gen of crime junkies that. I want to make. >> My stepdad we would watch Rescue 911 and. Unsolved Mysteries together.

>> I miss Robert Stack every day of my. life. >> gosh that is crazy. No but like not even. by my choice like that's what he would. watch and then I would just be laying in. bed like fascinated and it's probably. what started all this who knows. I never. remember being scared at night. It. wasn't that like it's just something. it's strange like you're. it was just some like how you said some. people are just built for it. >> built for it and I think that's I was. just built to watch that stuff. >> Unsolved Mysteries I always joke that. John Walsh was my first boyfriend cuz we.

would spend every Saturday night. together. >> [laughter]. >> Same. He was cheating on you with me and. vice versa. But. I I love that for you because it's. that's something that we are missing. And I've got I mean my daughter's four. now and so as she like I see her like. she loves if I tell her a mystery story. and I'm like oh there's like there's my. little crime junkies out there. >> Yeah. And generational she'll be. you next. That's crazy. That's so fun.

That is fun. Is there anything that you. don't tell her? Like do you not want her. to know about certain things? I mean. like I don't talk to her about. like you know gruesome crimes or. anything like that. I mean we talk about. a lot about. danger and I don't even say stranger. danger because like I said earlier most. of the time especially with kids the. danger is somebody that they know. It's. a good point. And so we talk about like. about it not being her job to make. people comfortable and about boundaries.

and we talk about what's normal and not. normal what to do if she feels. uncomfortable. There are no secrets. there only surprises cuz surprises. people find out about and adults never. going to ask you to keep a secret. Um so. I I I'm using a lot of. >> that. Yeah. I mean it's it's something I. I don't know where I heard it from but. I'm like that's so important. I was like. an adult will never ask you to keep a. secret. We can there can be surprises. where like you know dad's doing. something but mom's going to find out. >> Right. And we're going to share that. I. love that. That's like I'm like I tell. everyone to to try and instill that in.

their kids because it's it's you know. it's all about shame and they're it's. never their job to protect someone. either. Right. Cuz I do no secrets but. my daughter does spill the beans cuz she. not allowed to have a secret but that's. so smart to say no secrets but there can. be surprises. Yeah. I love that. Ashley. Flowers this was amazing. >> Thank you so much. I loved this. I could. go on and on but you and I will get. [music]. cancelled or something. >> to do like a little true crime corner or. something. Conspiracy corner. Yes. conspiracy corner. I need that. I had so.

much [music] fun and I have so many. other cases and so many other things but. we'll save that for another time. Thank you. Thank you.