Escaping Polygamy and Starting Over ft. Ashley Sandmire | Khloé In Wonder Land

things that I wish that I knew when my. husband and I left the polygamous. religion we were born and raised in. I. thought that I was going to have to. share him and have sister wives. We were. told to lie about it. I've had the most. bizarre crazy happen. My brother. took his life a little over 8 years ago. This has got to stop. >> Your story is so fascinating. You have. gone through so much. Tell me about your. childhood. >> My dad had [music] 46 kids. He was. abusive in every way. It was always. taught. You do what the man says and you. will obey. The brainwashing and the toll.

that it takes, that's [music] scary. I. got married at 18. Who the hell let me. do that? He was like, I don't know if I. want multiple wives. >> I would be like, am I enough? >> When I gave birth to my daughter, me and. my husband were like, she can't live. like that. >> Is your story going to be something. you're going to be just very honest. [music] about? >> What is even appropriate to tell a. seven-year-old? >> Do you ever get scared that you left the. church? >> There's a lot of fear. [music] I know. that there are people living that way. that don't want to and they don't know. how to get out. >> What do you want people to take away? I.

felt bitter and angry because of the way. that I grew up, but you can't live life. like that. Get up, get the out, and. leave. So, Ashley, thank you for being here on. Chloe and Wonderland. you did I think it. was a podcast for someone else and I saw. it on TikTok and you were talking about. your story and all that you've been. through and your story is so fascinating. but something that really drew me to you.

is you have so much grace and compassion. for all the players in your life and. from what I saw you didn't come from. this place of this victim stance you. came from a place of really wanting to. educate and inform and talk about your. journey. It's really a beautiful way to. position life and to position all that. you've gone through and I really was so. enamored by you and your energy and all.

that and so I really wanted you to come. on and I'm so grateful that you did. that. >> That's so cool. I appreciate that. I. feel so honored to share my story with. you. I'm like such a vibe person and I. just feel like. >> just like a calm vibe about you. So. >> Oh, good. I've shared it before, but I. feel like it's always nerve-wracking the. first time and so I feel like I feel. more comfortable to just. >> share more and be more vulnerable. So, >> Oh, well, I feel happy to do that with. you. >> So honored that you're on. I really do. And I know you flew in from Utah today.

So, thank you for doing that. So, first. I wanted you to tell me, tell the. viewers, the listeners about your. childhood and who you are, the type of. family that you were born into because I. don't know if a lot of people know about. your history. I grew up in a very broken. version of polygamy growing up. So, my. dad had six wives at one point, but my.

family split up when I was 2 years old. And I like to say that I grew up in like. a divorced home like to the next level. because. >> yeah, there's just so many adults. involved. And my mom chose to stay with. my dad whereas the other wives left. And. I feel like that also like added a lot. into my life. and maybe more trauma. because my mom chose to stay. >> So, what was your living situation like?

So, your dad had six wives. Were the six. wives you guys all have different like. one wife like your mom and your siblings. would be in one home and then every wife. in their own? So before my family split. up, they actually all lived in trailers. in like a trailer court and. >> no heat, no AC, like. >> they were just scraping by. >> and. that's it's just like for every family. so different, but that's how it was for. mine. Like everybody had their own.

trailer. >> But then when my family split up, we. moved to like a little town called Lehi. in Utah. >> until I was about five. And then um my. dad wanted to start like his own like. community of the religion down a little. bit south in Utah in a little town. called Mayfield. Um it never ended up. really happening. Like a few people. moved down there but I lived there like. up until I moved out at 17.

>> You guys were raised is it FLDS? >> So I think that's like the most common. one that people know is FLDS and that's. like Warren Jeff's. Mh. >> So I grew up in the AUB. I don't know if. you've heard of the show Sister Wives. >> Yes. >> So the Browns, I grew up in the same. religion as them. >> And in that religion, AUB is polygamy. taught. >> Yeah. It's very like you need to live. this way. That's like the main purpose. of living that religion is to have.

multiple wives or live plural marriage. is what they call it. >> because that gets you to eternal heaven. I was watching the documentary that you. suggested, >> Keep Sweet, Pray, Obey. So that's the. Warren Jeff's one. Yes. >> So I watched that. Man, that was hard to. watch. I actually didn't finish the end. cuz I was like, this is gross. I can't. handle this. Especially when you have. kids. I'm like things are just. different. >> Everything's different when you're a. mom. >> Everything everything. Um, so it was. hard. And then of course then I'm like.

I'm very empathetic. I was like, "Oh, that I'm thinking about you and like. what any of this is something that. correlated with your life." It was a. lot. So, in the documentary, it's saying. about the more wives you have, the more. you're going to get into heaven, but. it's all about the male perspective. And. then someone's interviewed another. gentleman. And they're like, "So, the. producer was like, "Okay, you keep. talking about the men. Where do the. women go when they go to heaven?" And. it's just like constant laughter. and.

they were like, "Oh, we don't really. know." Like, it's the women are not held. in any high regard from what I gathered. >> Yeah. >> Is that how you felt by when you were in. that religion? >> Yeah. I feel like everybody's experience. can be different, but for me personally. growing up, I do feel like it was very. much like you do what the man says, he's. the head of the house, and you will. obey. And so I guess growing up I was.

exposed to a lot of things like I would. say. Warren Jeff's polygamy was like the FLDS. is a lot like more intense than the one. that I grew up in. I would say mine is. one of the quote unquote better ones to. grow up in for sure. But I feel like it. also depends on like the family that you. were raised in. And for me, we were. like, maybe we didn't have Warren Jeffs, but we still had pedophiles that were.

always allowed to be at our house. And. they know that they're creeps. Why are. they always at our house every day, hitting on us, all these inappropriate. things? And it was always just taught. like it doesn't matter. Like you don't. really get a choice. and as a woman. And. that always like bugged me, but it was. like hard in that sense of like finding. your voice and also being told you don't. really have one,

>> right? And it sounds like. your mom, I imagine she got married. young, >> very young. >> And it sounds, and I have no idea, but a. little bit of your story, I would. imagine maybe your mom was sort of. groomed or put into this position. herself. Yeah. I I think that she was. she was 17. >> Yeah. >> And my dad is 24 years older than her. So she was 17 and he was like 40 years. old.

>> And I think as I've become a mom, it's. just like making me realize even more. how messed up some things are. And she. didn't really get a say. Like it was. just like, well, this guy's interested. in me and what they do is courting. And. so he asked about her to her dad and. then her dad said, "Yeah, you can date. her.". >> And some dads are like, "Awesome." And. they're like, "Nope, she's not. interested. You can't date." Some are. like, "No, you have to give it a shot.".

>> And that's how my mom's dad was. That's. how my dad was. And. >> so. >> your dad would say yes on your behalf. >> Yeah. and just like tell my sisters. like, "Well, you have to give him a. shot." My sister. had to date this like way older man and. she was like so creeped out by him and. was just like, "No, I don't want to.". But my dad made her and he like came to. our house. We had dinner with him.

That's kind of like how the courting. starts is like you get to know them. You. and start dating them and sometimes they. have multiple wives. So then you get to. know the other wives. >> And this guy didn't have other wives. yet, but my sister was young. She was. probably 17, 18. And. >> I just remember it being so. uncomfortable. And I was younger cuz I'm. like 5 years younger than her. And I was. just like, what is going on? >> Yeah. And that's traumatizing in and of. itself, just being a witness to that. You have such compassion and grace for.

people, especially the ones that maybe. put you in the line of fire at times. And it says so much about your integrity. and character of a person. But I would. fight if it were me like, okay, I love. and respect my mom. And I also have. empathy because her parents didn't. protect her, so she knows no better. >> Yeah. >> But then you're also like, but you. should know better. Yes. >> Because I feel that exactly. >> I would be torn into two ways.

research. that you're. >> and then I'm sure you know at this point. or when she was 17 for until she had all. 12 of you guys. >> probably the brainwashing that was. happening to her young mind like it's. >> 17 is so little. >> so little I know we feel so grown at 17. but we're not. >> I know you feel grown at 17. I got.

married at 18 and I'm like, who the hell. let me do that? >> Totally. I got married at 24 and I. question all the I'm always like 24 I. mean I. >> it was amazing but I'm like that is a. baby. So. >> a baby. >> Yes. But I can't understand maybe the. two angels you have on your shoulder. like cuz you also want to be entitled to. your feelings about like why did like to. be that little girl like mommy I want. help protect me but then you're also.

sort of wanting to be a mother to her. still go through this right now because. being a mother myself, I'm like, "But. how could you?" Because I grew up the. same way. And I was like, "No, this. isn't okay.". >> And I was able to like work through that. and be like, >> "No, find my voice. I don't like this. This isn't okay.". >> And it was becoming a mom that made me. leave, that helped me leave. Because. when I gave birth to my daughter, me and. my I'm going to get emotional. A. >> that was just like the change for me.

because. me and my husband were like she can't. live like that. That's not the life that. we want for her and we don't we want her. to be loved and protected and cared for. because that's what she deserves. And so. then like I have that dug and pull with. my mom cuz I'm like. >> why don't you? >> The second I became a mother I was like. no this isn't okay. But then I still. have that compassion where I'm like, "Well, crap. You didn't even get a. chance, >> right? >> You were so young, got married so young,

just kept popping babies out every 2. years.". >> And also having that many kids, too. The. postpartum, the way that we feel about. ourselves and sometimes. >> messes with you. >> Yeah, it does. And we do become. sometimes weaker emotionally or like. what we're like we don't feel like we. have the strength to do certain things. sometimes. I feel bad cuz your mom is. still a person too. Like sometimes we. put our parents on these pedestals. >> It's her first time living too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that many kids it does affect you.

>> And not only that, but like I had other. siblings coming to our house all the. time, she was having to mother them too. And anytime some of my older siblings. were like lashing out, having struggles, they would send them to our house. And. then we would deal with the. repercussions of my brothers in these. crazy. >> phases of their life. Yeah. >> On top of like [music] just my just my. mom not being able to emotionally be. there.

>> Have you ever left a doctor's. appointment with results in hand but. still no real understanding of what they. actually mean? Or what are you supposed. to do next? Or maybe you felt like. something in your body was off, but the. answers kept coming back as fine. That. loop of uncertainty is exhausting. Hers. understands. As women, we're often told. to listen to our bodies. But too often, we're left without the information to. actually understand them. And when.

reassurance alone isn't enough, knowing. what's really going on inside your body. matters. PERS is rethinking the outdated. health care system to finally give women. what they deserve. Care that's. convenient, supportive, built around. real needs, and backed by experts in. women's health. This is about clarity, not guesswork. Hers now provides. convenient access to in-depth holistic. lab testing with more than 130 biomarker.

tests designed to give meaningful. insight to your health and results that. make it easier to understand what's. actually going on inside your body. instead of leaving you with more. questions. If eligible, you get access. to a doctorde-developed action plan. based on your results with diet and. lifestyle guidance to help you move. towards your goals. So, you're not just. handed information, you're supported. through what comes next. Hers also. offers personalized treatment plans for.

heart health, menopause, and so much. more. It's a new level of clarity, one. that gives databacked confidence to make. informed health decisions. So feeling. like yourself again doesn't feel so far. away. If you want clearer insight into. your health, go to forhers.com. and schedule your labs today. That's. fs.com. for.com.

So you grew up AUB religion and being in. a polygamous family, do you go to a. regular school? >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um not everybody does, but I did. We. live far away from any of like the other. communities. Like I said, my dad tried. to start one, didn't happen. And so I. went to the public school that was just. 10 minutes away from me. And I'm. grateful for that in ways because I feel. like at first it was hard because in.

elementary school it's fun. Middle. school kids get mean. And I grew up in a. small town, so everybody knows. everything about everybody. And I would. get made fun of for being a polygamist. And I didn't really feel like I had. anywhere to turn to because anytime I. would come to my parents, they wouldn't. hear me. >> And so that was a tough time in my life. But then high school got better and I. was on the soccer team and I loved it. And that's kind of what kept me in. school because I was not like I did not.

love school. I didn't do homework or. learn or do any of those things, but I. loved sports and I loved making friends. >> It's probably a good outlet for you. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Do you think going to a regular school. cuz I know some of the. I was it Mormon? Is the religion's. Mormon? No. kind of people get it's so. confusing because so like the LDS church. >> they don't really like being called.

Mormons anymore because I think like. years and years ago they used to. practice polygamy. >> and then one day there was this thing. called the Mormon manifesto and the. president of the church Wilfr Woodruff. was like we're no longer practicing. polygamy so they haven't done that for a. very long time but then when that. happened there were tons of breakoffs of. different polygamous religions. >> and the one that I grew up in, the AUB, is just one of those many breakoffs. >> Understood. >> The FLDS warn Jeff's one of the many.

breakoffs. >> Understood. >> And they all believe just slightly. different things and some of them are. just a lot more crazy than the others. >> A lot of the ones that have their own. like compounds, if you will, it seems. like they funnel in specific. education. So a lot of kids aren't even. exposed to what could be happening in. their lives. Like they think this is so. normal. So I wonder if like you were. saying, but I knew this was wrong. I.

knew I didn't like this. I also wonder. if that's because you went to a public. school and maybe got a little exposure. to what was really happening. >> Yeah. Well, I'm like just an observer. I. feel like I learn from observing other. people. And I would notice my friends. lives and their families and be like. this is kind of weird. Like it's. different. And like I would go and hang. out at my best friend's house for months. and my parents wouldn't even like ask. where I was and I'm like this is kind of.

weird. Like my friends parents are. always like calling them and texting. them like all the time, right? >> My parents don't even care where I am. So that's interesting because I always. felt like in those religions it was, and. maybe this is just my ignorance, like it. was a little more cultlike where like. they wanted to keep eyes on you guys. more cuz no one wanted to be exposed, right? >> I really think that it depends on the. family, >> okay, >> that you're in. I really think my mom. was just so checked out with so many. kids and. >> it's a lot. >> My dad was just doing whatever the crap.

he was doing and [laughter]. >> I was just doing whatever I was doing. But do you maybe in hindsight appreciate. that that you had a little more freedom. cuz maybe you didn't have to go through. cuz you're part of the youngest. >> Yes. >> Right. Out of the 12. >> Cuz my dad had 46 kids give or take. >> Merry Christmas. [laughter]. >> Merry Christmas to us. >> No. Like sometimes we didn't even know. if we'd get Christmas. That's the crazy. thing. I think I was like number 38. I'm.

like one of the youngest of them because. I was two and my family split up. My mom. was pregnant with my brother just below. me. >> and then my mom stayed with my dad and. had a few more kids with him. So, yeah. >> A lot of kids. >> Yeah. >> Are you close with all your 12 siblings? >> No. It's like hard. >> I I'm close with a few of them. Probably. about half. But I think it's hard. because some of them are still in that. religion and I don't I don't care if. you're like I know so many people that.

still live that way and they're like. really good people and they're just. trying their best and they truly believe. that they're doing what is right. >> But sometimes it does cause that divide. like if you choose to leave then people. are kind of like well you're a bad. example I don't really. >> want to hang around you. >> No I get that. >> But a good portion of my mom's kids have. left. >> and your mom is still she's stayed in. the religion. So she just recently left. Wow. >> Like within this last year. >> Wow. >> So she like started going to therapy. >> and. >> that's also major.

>> I know because growing up like therapy, mental health, all of that was so. stigmatized. You just sweep it under the. rug. >> I think that my mom probably dealt with. postpartum depression, mental health. issues, and she never even knew that she. did, >> right? >> Because you don't talk about it and you. just pretend like you're okay. your. mother leaving, has that. made you want to have a stronger. relationship with her? >> I think I think I've always had that.

want kind of because she's my mom and. like I long for that mother bond that. I've never really had since I was like. little little. I see growth happening. with her and like she's leaving my dad. he's he's abusive and very toxic and. she's finally leaving him and she's been. going to therapy and that's been helping. her. She did recently realize like, oh, I have like I was groomed and I never. really did get to have a voice or find. out who I was before I had a million.

kids. And I once again I have so much. grace and compassion with her, but she. still has a lot. >> more. >> to go. Oh, this is so heartbreaking. That's actually really. >> No, I It's hard, but I'm like so. thankful for my kids because even though. I don't have a close relationship with. my mom, at least I get to be the mom. that I always wish that I had. And not. saying that I'm a perfect mom, but I do. think that I do a really good job. And I.

just spend so much time with my kids. making sure that they feel heard and. seen and loved. And I just feel like. that's something that I never got as a. kid. Speaking of that, what was your. emotional support as a kid? Like, who. would you turn to if you needed what the. normal parental would do for you? >> I feel like sometimes I would turn to. friends. When your friends are so young, too, it's kind of like. >> they don't realize the depth of maybe. what you're going through. And then also.

like siblings, but then like they're. going through their own, you know? And I. have my mom's oldest daughter, Camila. I. to this day call her Mama Cam. >> because I would go to her for a lot of. stuff. >> Yeah. >> Kind of having some type of mother. figure because she would like. >> let me sleep over there whenever I. needed and vent to her if I needed to or. buy me underwear if I needed it. >> For your dad, was he prominent in your. life or was he sort of just doing his.

own thing and it was more the mom's? He. was kind of back and forth because he. ended up getting a job that was two. hours up north away from us. So he'd be. gone all week and then come home on the. weekends. >> and sometimes we'd see him like we'd go. and visit him. >> But he didn't parent us at all. It was. more of like the religious stuff like I. want you to do this. I expect you to be. like this. But it was never like. parenting. I guess. >> it's so interesting that even if your.

dad was gone so much that your mom still. felt. like such a need to stay. >> I know. And that's what's like so hard. when you are born and raised into. something. You're brainwashed into. believing that this is the way. And. there's a lot of fear, right? If you. don't live this way, you won't be with. your loved ones when you die. >> and you won't have that eternal family. and you won't get to be with your kids. and your husband when you die. That's. scary. That's a terrifying feeling. And. that's why I almost lived that way.

>> because I was like so scared about not. being able to be with my loved ones when. I die. >> How did you meet your husband? >> He grew up in the same polygamous. religion. >> He did. >> So when I was 16, my 14-year-old brother. took his life. >> I'm so sorry. And. >> yeah, that was so crazy and such a hard. time in my life. And my husband Paul,

12 days after my brother took his life, my husband Paul's brother died in a. tragic construction accident. >> Oh my gosh. >> And so Paul and I like knew each other. cuz we grew up in the same religion. But. after we lost our brothers so close to. each other, we like started reaching out. to each other started confiding in each. other and we were both close to our. brothers. So it was just nice to be able. to talk to someone who understood it. Even though they. >> died in different ways, they were both.

very tragic. So when Paul and I met each. other, we were going to church together. We were going to live polygamy. We would. talk about getting sister wives. And it. always made me feel a little like I. don't want to share you. I don't want to. share you. When I started like feeling. love for him, I was like, but I have to. share you with other women. Like this. sucks, >> right? >> But we were just going to do it because. of the pressure. >> And I think that we wanted to leave for. a while after having my daughter. That.

gave us the like strength to be like, I'm not going to let this control me. anymore and hover over me anymore. I. need to do this for my daughter. She. deserves a better life. And sometimes it. just takes something like that to help. you make the step that you need in life. >> So you guys got married, had your baby, and then together we're just honest and. brave enough to say, I want to leave. this religion. >> Yeah. And is that something you do like.

in the darkness of night or do you leave. like you're honest with everyone or do. you sort of have to run away? >> For Paul and I specifically, we didn't. have to escape or like we weren't shut. out by our families because we chose not. to live that way. Like they're still in. our lives. >> just this slow gradual process of like. not going anymore. And then they're. like, "Why aren't you going to church. anymore? What are you doing?". >> And then we finally had to be like. honest about it. But that was hard for. me. It was like I'm not super close with.

my parents. So it was kind of like. whatever, I'm going to [laughter] do my. thing. It almost made it easier. But for. Paul, like he didn't want to disappoint. his loved ones, too. And so it was like. this process of I think that's the. hardest thing about like sometimes when. you make decisions for yourself, it. might disappoint people that you love. and care about, but that doesn't mean. that it's the wrong decision. >> No, it doesn't. And you're so strong for. breaking that generational cycle and for.

doing that and doing it for your. children. I mean, the way they're going. to feel when they're older and you get. to tell them your story. Is your story. going to be something that you're going. to be just very honest about with your. kids? >> Yeah. I'm just an honest person. Like I. feel like that causes more issues with. your relationships with your children, >> right, >> than anything if you're not honest with. them. And I think that honesty comes at. different levels on their age. >> Yes. >> Like my oldest is seven. She doesn't.

even understand the life that I grew up. in. And it hasn't even clicked to her. how crazy it is because. >> Oh, they don't know. >> Well, and also like anytime we are. around family that still lives that way, the husband isn't ever present. Like. they just see their aunties or whatever. And so they she doesn't realize he's. married to five women, six women. But. with my brother taking his life, she's. already asked questions about that. >> And I'm like, "How do you tell a.

seven-year-old?". >> Well, yeah. What do you say in that. situation? >> So, >> cuz did she meet him? >> So, she never met him cuz I was 16 when. he passed. So, my brother was 14, I was. 16, and then I had her I was pregnant. with her at 19, had her at 20 years old. And so, I was a baby having a baby. And. it's crazy because I feel like my kids. have just been growing up with me and my. husband has just been we're just like.

growing up together. >> Maybe he comes to [clears throat] her. >> Yeah. Oh, he has. That's the craziest. thing. Okay. >> I believe in all that. >> So, no, I'm telling you he has because. one time I cuz I'll like post about my. brother and try and like spread mental. health awareness and suicide awareness. because it's not talked about enough. especially in children. My brother was a. child. >> and I had this post that I was posting. and she was 3 years old and she was.

like, "Oh, mom, I was playing with him. outside.". >> Oh my god. >> And I was like, "Are you sure?" Like, I. thought maybe she was confusing him with. my other brother that's 6 years younger. than me. >> Okay. >> But my brother, the past was only two. years younger than me. And I was like, "Oh, you mean like Uncle Caleb?" And I. like show her a picture of him. She's. like, "No, it was him." And she was. like, "We were playing catch outside and. he kept sticking his tongue out at me. like this.". And that is what like rung true to me.

because that's what my brother Ammon. would do all the time. >> And he has so many selfies of him. sticking his tongue out like that. So. the second she told me that, I had. chills through my body. I was like, "Okay, I believe you. What the heck?". >> Oh, I believe that. And you know, spirits and angels, they come to. children because they're the most. innocent and like their guard is down. And I think sometimes adults get freaked. out, but I believe that you have to hold. on to that story forever.

>> Oh, I know. I have to. It was so. special. And it's crazy because like I. still will feel my brother sometimes, but I actually haven't felt him in a. while. But when I was at the airport, I. like felt him. >> A. >> I like got these chills and I was like, >> he's with me. >> He is with you. And the more you talk to. him and all that, he'll show up for you. and all of that. >> Yeah. >> Do you think your religion had anything. to do with him having such mental. health? >> I don't know. I' I've been asked that.

before and it's hard to say because he. never specifically told me that. >> But he did he would tell me like I don't. feel like this is right. Like. >> do you really want to have like multiple. sister wives? like he would ask me that. and I'd be like, I don't know. >> So, he would question it like a lot and. be like, "This just doesn't feel right. I don't think that this is right. I. don't want to live that way.". >> And I don't think that that was. necessarily why. But I do think that we. grew up with a lot of oh my the trauma.

goes so deep. It's like that's just like. a whole so much so much story to tell. So, I'm sure that there was so much. going on in his life that even I didn't. know about because him and I were close. And when he took his life, I seriously. was so clueless. I was like, "What? >> Like, how did this even happen?". >> But when something like that happens, who do you go to? Cuz that is beyond the. word trauma seems so empty for something.

like that. Like I could never I couldn't. imagine that happening in my life. And. then I couldn't imagine that and then. not having a mom or a dad to turn to and. be consoled and loved through that time. Like what do you what do you do? Who do. you go to? >> I think I just I clung to my siblings, >> my husband, >> and. Tik Tok. >> Yeah. No, but it's. >> sharing my story on TikTok, finding. other people that have been through it. too, you know, through other situations.

And also like I just feel like losing. him was probably. if not the most painful thing I've ever. gone through in my life. And after he. passed, I truly believe that it was my. fault. And that's something that can be. super common when you lose someone to. suicide is believing that it's your. fault. >> And that really messed with me for a. while. >> Why you think that or why you thought. that? >> I think that I just was like, I should. have known. Like I should have saw the.

signs. I should have known. And I should. have stopped this from happening. And. also this weird thing happened that I. like will always remember for some. reason. But like a month before he had. passed, we were me, him, and my dad were. driving in the car and I had this like. super like strong thought in my brain. like Ammon's going to kill himself. >> And I was like, ew. Like I like pushed. it out of my head because I was like. that is a gross thought. Like why would. I think that? And we grew up like. dreams, thoughts that we have like all.

of those have meaning to them and they. carry a lot of meaning. And so then I. feel like I really took that to heart. and was like this was God trying to tell. me and I didn't listen and now he's. gone. >> And I was 16. Like I did not realize. even how young I was when I was going. through such a loss in my life. >> But I was able to work through it. And. I, you know, I was pretty suicidal. And. my husband when I was dating him, he one.

night when we were together just. randomly decided to tell me how much I. meant to him, how much my life meant, and how I brighten people's lives around. me. And something with what he said. clicked to me. And I was like, you know, like I do matter. People do care about. me and I do need to hang on. And I think. that people forget how much little. things like that really do matter. Like. reaching out to people when they're. struggling, doing acts acts of kindness.

when someone is struggling. And that's. something that's helped me with the. grief of losing my brother is doing acts. of kindness for people. And I'll do like. his blue was his favorite color. And so. I'll do runom acts of blue. >> and I'll just give them to strangers or. I'll give them to someone that I know is. struggling and. >> things like that help me feel close to. him and like he's with [music] me. >> Well, you'll always keep his memory. alive when you do anything in thought of. him.

I would think if I cuz I have trust. issues. Um, having [laughter]. >> I'm just wondering like do you like do. you question like is your hus like I. would be like am I enough because you. all these men saw were like I need to. have five wives I need to have seven. wives whatever it is would you yourself. question like is this like entertaining. enough? Is this fulfilling enough? Just.

>> I totally see where you're coming from. I think something that helped me not. ever feel that way with him was even. when we were dating. I think the reason. why I felt comfort in even staying with. him was because like part of me didn't. really want to live that way, but I. didn't really know like maybe didn't. have the strength to just be like, I. don't want to live this way now. Where. do I go? Who's going to want me? You. know, >> but he. we had a conversation and he was like, I. don't know how I feel about the plural. marriage. Like I don't know if I want.

multiple wives. [clears throat]. And we both were just like, well, we. kind of have to like this is what we. have to do. So sad. And so we would have. those conversations. And looking back, I'm like, we were so young to be having. those conversations. But. >> I think him being on the same page as me. and him vocalizing that to me before I. vocalized it to him. I was like, okay, this like made me have some trust in him. cuz I was like, okay, you're not just. wanting to get like a million wives. You're just wanting to get them cuz we. have to, not because you like want all. these wives. So, I think that that.

helped for sure. >> I think it's so special that you guys. came from similar upbringings because I. think you guys can relate and obviously. you guys have your trauma bonding from. all the stuff you've been through, but. you guys are on such parallel journeys. I think it's so much easier to get out. together and how you said you and your. husband are growing together. I mean, that's really what marriage is. You're. going to have your ups and your downs, but as long as you both don't stay. stagnant, like you guys want to be. >> change together. Yes, cuz we're all.

going to change. Especially being so. young. >> We are completely different people than. we were when we first got married. It's. like jump scare. >> Yeah. >> Truly a jump scare. >> The beauty is it's together. You have. three kids. What What kids do you have? Boys, girls. >> I have a daughter, Brooklyn, and then a. son, Cashton, and then another son, Chapman. And they're all like three. years apart. >> So cute. Yeah. >> I have a seven-year-old daughter and a. three-year-old son. >> So like the same. It's the best. >> Do you want to have more kids?

>> I would only have one more if I were to. have more kids because I just want to be. able to mentally, financially, all the. things be able to be there for my kids. So, I don't know. Like, my daughter's. like, I need a sister. And I'm like, I. can't guarantee that. And I'm sorry. And. it's like I know what it was like to. grow up with having sisters and I have. sisters that I am close to. >> And so, I'm like, I'm sorry that you. might [laughter] not get that. No, >> but she has cousins, right? >> I have four sisters and one brother. And.

I wish I could give my daughter true a. sister cuz I love my relationship. >> Your relationship is. >> it's so special. Like it's the best. But. I'm also I don't know if I have the. bandwidth for. a third. And I'm also not married and I. want to be married to have more kids. But so I don't know. But we have cousins. and they're close like sisters. That's how I feel. She has a cousin that. she's so close to and they see each.

other every week and they're the same. age and. >> I'm like, you have her. >> Yeah. We have to tell ourselves at. >> least have her. >> That's that's enough. When you had kids, do you think it gave I know it gave you. strength to leave your religion, but do. you think it gave you understanding or. com more compassion for your mother? I. think at first I was just very angry at. her. Honestly, if I'm being real, I had. my kids and I was like, "What the hell? Did you even love me?". >> Sometimes I still question it. I'm like,

>> I know what a mother's love feels like. And so, it's hard for me to see it any. other way. It's just like, you love your. kid. This is what you do. >> Have you ever had these conversations. with her? >> She can't handle it. So, I think going. to therapy, this is like something my. mom has always done. And I think she's. becoming aware that she does it and now. she's learning how to not do it. But. anytime, anytime when we were kids, we. would tell her the most bizarre thing.

that happened to us and she'd be like, "Oh." And not say a word. That was it. Zone it out, block it out, not talk. about it, never bring it up again. And. she just shuts down. >> Wow. completely shuts down when she's. uncomfortable. And I honestly think. that's part of what has made us not have. the greatest relationship because I am. such an honest upfront person and I will. tell you how it is. I'll tell you in a. nice way, right? >> Maybe when I was younger I wasn't nice,

but. >> as I've grown up and matured a little. bit, like I'll tell you in a nice way, but I'm going to be real with you. And I. just don't think that she has been able. to handle that. But I do see her getting. there. Maybe like if she continues to go. to therapy and she has started to become. aware that she shuts down. I just think. that it is going to be the longest. process and maybe like we would have to. go to therapy together. Honestly, >> that might be smart. [laughter] I don't. know if she could handle it right away. >> That's what I'm saying. I don't think. she's Oh, I don't think she's there yet. >> I mean, it sounds.

>> or maybe never will be. >> And I don't. >> And I have that expectation that it just. might not ever happen. And. >> I think we have to realize how hard it. is to change ourselves. Yeah. >> And you normally only change it if you. find there to be a problem with it. >> If other people say it, you're like. whatever, that's your problem. >> Become defensive or like whatever. I'm. going to be me. >> Like I want to be more like that cuz. you're telling me not to be. >> Yeah. So I think I just have to not have.

expectations cuz that is what causes the. hurt. And I used to have expectations. and I would be hurt all the time. So now. it's just like if she ends up healing. more, going to therapy more, and she. wants to have those conversations, I'm. so ready. >> It's so weird because like she hasn't. really been there in my life. My kids. barely know who she is. >> And recently because she's been going to. therapy, like they've seen her a couple. of times this last year. And. >> it was so sad because they're like, "Who.

is that?" I'm like, "It's your grandma. That's that's my mom." Yeah. >> And I think she's kind of expressed that. maybe she wants to be more in our lives. >> That's sweet. >> But it's like and I I think it is sweet. I just think that it's very complex, right? >> And it's not like I don't know. >> I also like have that mother in me. that's like. >> are you going to stay? Are you going to. continue to grow? Cuz like I can't have. >> close relationships. I my kids can't.

have close relationships with people. like that, you Oh, I was going to say. when you see her, does she activate or. trigger something in you that. >> you I'm imagining she reminds you of a. lot of dark times in your life. >> Yeah, for sure. >> So, maybe it's healthier for you that. >> sadly she's not. >> And I think it's just like I don't feel. that like mother bond with her cuz I. haven't for a long time. So, when I am. with her, it just feels weird, right? It. doesn't I guess because like I know what. it feels like when I'm with my kids and.

how my kids feel when they're with me. and I just don't feel like that's. there's like some sort of like. disconnect I guess. >> I honestly feel like your mom especially. with how you're saying if you told her. something crazy and she just like. ignores it. >> Yeah. >> It sounds like your mom had probably a. really up childhood. >> Yeah. >> And she was probably for a lack of a. better word like trained or conditioned. you can't have an opinion. You can't. have a voice. And I don't want you to. really even comment on anything that.

you're seeing. >> And then she married a man that. continued to treat her that way. >> So sad. >> I know. I truly have so much compassion. for her. I really do. >> No. And I I love you for that, too. But. I also have so much respect for you that. you're taking care of you. Yes. But it's. mainly for your kids. >> It just shows that I love them. That's. what I'm saying. I'm like, isn't this. just what moms do? But if she never felt. that or had that herself, she doesn't. know. That's what moms do. >> I know. But that's what's so crazy. I. didn't have that either.

>> You're right. >> And that's the tug and pull. >> Do you have any communication with your. dad? >> No. >> None. For how long? >> I think the last time I talked to him. was a year or so ago, but no, I do not. have a relationship with him, nor do I. care to, honestly. like he. was abusive in every way to his kids, to. his wife, >> and he fought in Vietnam. >> and got terrible PTSD from it, but he.

wanted to do it. Like that's that's. what's actually crazy. And maybe I just. talk about this, I guess. But one of the. last times I talked to him, he I asked. him like, I had read this book about. Vietnam and I was like, "Wow, I didn't. realize the stuff that you went through. and I'm trying to like, you know, I was. trying to have compassion for him even. though he's just not a good person.". >> And I was, you know, trying to talk with. him about it and just like see his. perspective of it. And it just left me. feeling more icky. I was like, "Oh,

okay. I really don't want a relationship. with you." I read a book. It was called. The Women. >> And I told him, I'm like, "Yeah, I read. this book called The Women." And he's. like, "You want to know how many women I. was with in Nom? You want to know if you. have Nom siblings?" I'm like, "So, are. you telling me I have nom siblings?". >> Right. That's how he tells me. >> So, I'm like, "Yeah, I have 45. siblings." Maybe. >> Like, maybe. >> How many more could you have? >> I don't know. >> He's a very fertile man. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy. >> And he just I don't know. The whole.

conversation I felt so icky and I. realized I don't have any more I don't. feel compassion for you. You're just not. a good person. >> Whereas he doesn't seem like he has. compassion for you either. >> No. >> Like how he's telling you these things. He's just like, "Yeah, here.". >> No. >> So, I get why you wouldn't. >> Yeah. Whereas with my mom, it's like I. don't think she's I don't think she's a. terrible person. I don't [music] I think. that she just like like we've talked. about all the things of the way that she. grew [music] up and things like that. Whereas with him, I'm like, you're just.

a bad person. Yeah. >> And that just is what it is. >> Yeah. >> Did you get to have traditions as a kid? Like did you guys celebrate holidays or. >> Yeah, >> you did. >> We did. >> So, there was still that like family. aspect. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I think that was honestly like. probably my best times as a childhood. was the holidays because a lot of times. some of my siblings would come and visit. and I'd always be so happy if I got to. see my siblings. That in itself was. magical. It was like already like oh.

this is special because I get to be with. my other siblings, right? >> And I don't know, there's just something. magical about holidays. So. >> there is. Yes. Yeah, we did celebrate. Christmas and. Easter, but I mean, we were never taught. about the Easter bunny or anything. It. was just like we're going to go hide. eggs and whatever. [laughter]. >> Social media is sort of therapy for you. >> Yeah. >> Do you get any heat for talking about.

the church? >> I mean, yeah, I've gotten a little bit. of heat for it. I think the main thing. is is I think it's just so uncomfortable. for people because growing up we were. told that you don't talk about this. >> Got it. >> And when my siblings would come to my. school like sometimes a sibling would. come live with us for a little bit if. they were having issues or whatever or. my friends would come over and I had. siblings over. It was always these are. my cousins. We had to call our siblings. our cousins and kind of be hush- hush.

about it. >> Why is that? Just because I think. >> because it wasn't. >> because it's not like legal. >> Got it. >> So I think that was part of it. It was. because it wasn't legal and because of. like the hate that would come with it. too. I think I know that they don't want. you to like it's not like me talking. about it definitely makes people. uncomfortable, but at the same. >> it makes that community uncomfortable. >> Yeah, for sure. >> And then wouldn't you think it helps? And who knows, maybe there's someone. that was in your position that gets to.

hear your voice and hear your story and. maybe you give them the strength and the. hope to know like, wow, okay, this isn't. normal that. >> that's all I could hope for because like. is the although it can be hard sometimes. because it's like when people are like. bugged about me [clears throat] talking. about it, at the same time I'm like I. know that there are people living that. way that don't want to and they don't. know how to get out. >> Yeah. Because even though you don't have. to escape, like maybe physically, mentally, the escape is insane.

>> The brainwashing and the toll that it. takes on you to leave something like. that, it messes with you. And it messed. with me for a while, even after I left. Like, >> well, even what you said about feeling. like you're not going to go to heaven. with your or is that what you consider. it? Heaven? Yeah. Heaven with your. family and your siblings and your kids. Like, that alone would. make anyone sit down for. >> I used to like I realized that I started. struggling with some like religious OCD.

and I never realized until I had kids. that I like struggled with it. But I. literally after we left I would pray. every night for God to not take my. daughter from me. I literally thought. she was going to die because. >> she we didn't we chose to not live that. way. she didn't get a special baby. blessing that they do all these things. And I didn't even realize that it was. like messing with me. >> And when I realized that, I was like,

"Wo, this is crazy." Like, I should not. be having to pray every night for my. daughter to not die. Like, that is. taxing. >> Yeah. To say the least. Yeah. To say the. least. >> As a mother, you're like, "No.". >> Oh my gosh, that's horrible. >> I'm sure you get it. You're like, "No.". >> I don't know. When I have dark thoughts, I'm like, "Cancel, cancel. This isn't. happening. >> Yeah. >> What do you want people to take away. from this? >> I think if I could use my voice in any. way for good, it's that there is nothing.

more powerful than being authentic to. who you are. Even if it makes other. people uncomfortable. >> Even if it makes you uncomfortable at. first because you're a people pleaser, >> right? even if people don't want to be. in your life anymore because you're. being authentic to who you are. For me, that was leaving a very high demand. religion where it disappointed a lot of. people when I chose to leave and it hurt. them. But in the end, it was the best.

thing that I could have done for me and. for my family. And I just hope through. sharing my story, that if anybody's going through anything. in life, whether it's leaving a high. demand religion or a cult or and maybe. they need the strength to leave, that. this gives them hope that like it gets. better and you will find your community. and your people that love you. And even. if you're leaving a toxic marriage or a.

toxic relationship, that it's worth it to leave. Get up, get. the out, and leave because you deserve. to live the life that you want to live. And. >> I truly believe that authenticity and. mental health are so deeply connected. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone. talk about that. But if you're not being. authentic to who you are, you're not.

going to be happy. And that is going to. put a toll on you mentally. And also in. that from losing my brother who was 14. to suicide, >> we need to be having these conversations. with our children. Our children need to. know that they are loved the way that. they are, that they can be authentically. themselves, and they also need to know. that they can come to you if they're. struggling, and that it's okay to not be. okay. >> Yeah. >> And I think that honestly, that's the.

leading cause of suicide is not talking. about it. And the biggest reason why. there's a stigma to mental health is not. talking about it. Because everybody has. struggles in their life. And if our. children know that anytime they are. having a struggle, oh, I'm having a. struggle, but it's okay and it will get. better. And I can tell my mom and dad, I. can tell people that I trust that I'm. struggling. >> and I don't have to keep this bottled up. inside. And I just think that I don't.

know, authenticity, mental health come. hand in hand. And I don't know, you need. to live your life the way that you want. to. And if that's leaving a high demand. religion, if that's leaving a toxic. relationship, do it. It's hard at first, but then it's easier. It's harder to. stay. >> Yeah. >> Honestly, >> you're so right. And it's so beautifully. said. And I think that could happen at. any age. Like your mom just left the. church herself. I'm sure it was. terrifying for her. >> Yeah. >> And but you you're never too old. It's.

never too late to start over. >> Exactly. Very good point. Get the life. you want. >> Yeah. Even if it's a little bit because. that little bit might be the best time. of your life and better than. >> it will still be worth it. >> It will be. >> It's never too late. >> Do you have any faith now? Like do you. have a different faith or any faith? >> I think that I'm still maybe. on my journey. Like I wouldn't say that. I'm like religious. Like I'm not tied to. a certain religion, but I am very.

spiritual. And I also just believe in. being a good person and doing good. >> And. >> I think that like I still struggle a. little bit with religion at all in. general because of where I came from. >> So I just really cling to being a good. person and teaching my kids to be good. people. And I think that's matters more. than anything honestly.

>> for someone in polygamy. I would think a. lot of that has its own identity in a. way because you were young and you left. the church. Do you think like you like. you had to get rid of the identity of. polygamy? Cuz growing up in a small. town, I imagine a lot of people knew. that you came from a polygamous family. Like did that bother you that that was. an identity that followed you places? >> Oh yeah. I hated it. >> Yeah. I which is so funny because now I. talk about it and I have no shame about. it. And maybe that's why I talk about it.

and don't have shame about it because my. mindset has shifted. I used to be so. embarrassed that I came from a. polygamous family and I hated that. people would say stuff and now I'm like. yeah I grew up in a polygamous family. So what? I didn't choose that. And. >> you know what? It's good story to tell. >> Do you ever get scared that you left the. church? I think I used to. What do you. mean by scared? >> I don't know. I just And I don't know. what's really real or.

fiction like from what people say, but. you hear like, "Oh, it's dangerous to. leave." Yeah. You just hear FLDS. I do. think it's more dangerous to leave FLDS. And that's the Warren Jeffs. Got it. >> Keep sweet, pray, and obey. Even though. we didn't grow up in that specific. polygamy, >> I was always taught to just keep sweet, pray, and obey. Do what you're told. It's crazy. >> But I always had that little bit of fire. in me, you know. >> Yeah. Thank God. >> What do you feel you're the most proud.

of of accomplishing in your life at this. moment? >> I don't know. I guess it maybe it sounds. dumb cuz we're already talking about. this, but just like. being the mom that I am to my babies. >> Yeah. >> Like it'll get me emotional every time. >> No, you're such a good mom. >> Because Yeah. Sorry. >> No, don't be sorry. You're such a good mom. You really are. I try my best and you know anytime that. I do something wrong I'm always like. whether I yell at them I lose my temper.

I'm like that is not your fault. I was. having a hard time with my emotions and. that's not on you. That's on me. And. even like just little things like that. that I was never told as a kid like that. I don't have to carry other people's. emotions and that. >> that's on them if they lose their or. they have their issues. It's not on you. to carry. And I feel like I always had. to carry so much as a kid and always. walking on eggshells. And I am just. thankful that despite everything that.

I've been through and not having a good. parent role to look at, I have been able. to just be a mom that I always dreamed. of. And I just I love being a mom. And. that's probably the most the thing that. I'm most passionate about is motherhood. and giving my kids the best life that. they can ever have. >> Oh, I think it's really really beautiful. that exactly what you said. You didn't. have a good role model to look towards.

But you do a really damn good job it. seems. And even things like that, the. way that you're able to communicate with. your kids, like if you know you I've. done that to mine. I've like snapped. I'm like, "I'm so sorry." And I'll. explain. And then my kids are the. >> I think that goes a long ways though. because I don't believe that our kids. need perfect parents. I didn't need. perfect parents. I just needed the. repair. >> The repair of this shouldn't have. happened and I'm sorry. The. conversations conversations with your.

kids and helping them understand things. I just think goes a very very long ways. And I hope that it does for my kids. I. can hope that, you know, and I'm sure. that they'll have their issues, >> whatever, when they get older, but I. just hope that they just never have to. question my love for them. >> No, I don't I don't think they could. I. really don't. Last question. How do you. think you maintain so much grace and. forgiveness for the ones that maybe.

weren't so great to you? >> I don't know. I at first I didn't know. if if I could. I feel like in a way it's. like a grief. >> And the older I got, the more of the. grief of it that I felt, >> the realization of. >> what the love that I lacked and. >> the parent bonds that I lacked and all. those things. I don't know. I guess I. just. do not want to live my life bitter. And.

maybe that's what it is. Yeah. >> I came to a realization. one day, maybe maybe it was slowly, >> that I don't want to live a bitter life. And bad things happen all the time. And. at the end of the day, we get to choose. Is this going to destroy me? >> Yeah. >> Or is this going to make me a better. person? Is this going to make me into. who I want to be? I think you're so. self-aware. and so aware like yes, I wish my mom did.

certain things, but you also understand. how she was raised and it's, you know, a. domino effect that way. And even your. dad, you're like, no, I don't want the. relationship, but that's you're not. trashing anyone. You're like, no, it's. just about like I'll be honest. Yeah, >> I'll be I'll be honest, but I try to be, you know, respectful about it. >> You are. And so if anyone has something. to say, I think that's their own. >> and I mean I guess like you saying like. I share my story.

to help people and that's exactly it is. I I learned after losing my brother that. your story matters. >> Your story is your life and it matters. >> and you get to choose to keep on going. You get to choose how to write your. story. And sometimes things will pop up. in your story that are hard or that you. didn't choose. But at the end of the. day, you still get to choose your story. because you get to choose if you are. going to grow from it or let it destroy.

you. And it's your story. You get to. choose your story. >> 100%. Well, I'm so proud of you. I don't. want that to sound condescending. I. really, really am. >> No, it doesn't. Thank you. I appreciate. that. Yeah, cuz I can't imagine how much. personal work it's taken and you just. seem still so full of light and what a. beautiful thing that [music] no one else. can take that from you. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you for coming here. >> Thank you for having me.