Breakups, Grief & Emotional Survival ft. David Kessler | Khloé In Wonder Land Ep. 15

[Music]. We're good here. I'm excited for this chat. You are going. to be helping so many people just by us. having this conversation. Thank you. I. think we have the illusion that grief is. somehow this straight arrow better. better better and it really is just a. big mess. What's the goal of grief? It's. to remember with more love than pain in.

your own time, in your own way. Grief. must be witnessed. We need to witness. without fixing. There is no let me point. out the bright side. Let me get you to a. better place. Let me let you have your. experience. And I don't know what it's. like for you, but I'm just going to show. up and be with you. One of the things. about grief and loss and breakups and. divorce and betrayals and death and. everything is we continue. We survive. We're very resilient. I always say we're.

resilient and fragile. None of this is. logical. It's matters of the heart. [Music]. Hi, David. Thank you so much for being. here. You are the most renowned expert. in grief and you've written so many. books about it and I'm just so excited.

to chat with you today. So, thank you. You and I were just chatting on the side. and I was saying how I'm so excited for. this conversation because I really. believe it's going to help so many. people channel their own grief in. whatever capacity they have it in. And I. don't think grief is spoken about as. much. I think people feel a lot of shame. in grieving or the timeline of what they. feel like they need to meet this. grieving expectations by. I'm not for.

any of that and I know you're not. either, but I just wanted to first dive. into how you came to the position that. you're in helping millions of people. process grief and what what occurrences. happened in your life that brought you. to this stage. I'm so glad we're doing this publicly. because it's so important for people to. get these conversations modeled. Yes. Because no one does it.

So, as you can imagine, I grew up with a. mother who was um a normal mom, but she. had some illnesses and then she had to. go to the big city hospital which was. hours away. Now, no one decides like I. wasn't in third grade or fifth grade and. everyone's talking about police officer. Oh, no, I want to be a fireman and I'm. like, is death and grief available? I. mean, no one thinks that, right? So it's. a profession that chooses you, right? So.

she has to go to the hospital. We're. there. You have to be 14 to visit. I'm. 13. That was in the day when families. were like a little bit of an. interruption of the healing process. Spent a lot of time in the hospital. lobby. Then at a certain point, we're at. our hotel across the way and someone. starts yelling fire. Everyone runs out. were all outside looking at this fire on.

the 18th floor. Fire trucks pulled up. I'm kind of a bored kid, so this is. interesting at first. And then when they. start to extend the ladders, shooting. starts. Oh wow. It turns out it was an. active shooter. It went on for hours and. hours. Oh my gosh. It's now considered. one of the first mass shootings in the. US. And I saw police officers and hotel. guests killed. My father was desperately.

trying to get us back to the. hospital. We finally get back and then. in a couple of days my mother dies. without me being able to be with her. I'm. downstairs and I even remember them. bringing me upstairs to see her after. she had died. And I had been so, you know, upset about. all the rules that by that point I.

remember seeing her hand and so wanting. to hold it one last time. I came away. from all of. that number one realizing there was no. one there to help me back then. And I've. kind of tried to grow into the person. who could have helped me. Yes. And I also wanted to make end of life. and grief better for people. I mean, we're all going to go through it. It's.

like the death rate's 100%. Right? We're. all going to go through it. It's. inevitable. And we don't talk about it. I think we don't talk about it because. it's so final and people don't want to. accept that finality. Right. Right. And. it's a pain. You know, I often say I'm. talking to people about what our. greatgrandparents knew, how to be with. the dying, how to be with people in. grief, how to talk about it. You know, if you want to see death now, it's kind.

of in a TV show or movies. And what do. we see there? We see the first. episode, someone's diagnosed or dying. Second episode, person cries. third. episode back to life, right? And grief. has a longer shadow than that. Yes, it. does. I mean, you just made a good point. about our grandparents or. great-grandparents. They would converse. so much more about death and it would be. more of the norm, if you will. Do you.

think that has to do with sort of I. don't want to say the loss of religion, but religion isn't as strong as it used. to be 50 years ago? I think it's partly. religion. I think with that we've lost. rituals. Religion has wonderful rituals. in it. Spirituality has wonderful. rituals. There's also changes that. happened in the 40s. Illness moved into. the hospital. It used to be in our home.

So I think we lost a sense of this part. of life. Right. But do you feel like. people are more accepting of death and. grief because we've sort of been faced. with so much of it? I think co got us. talking about it, right? Like how did. you not talk about what was happening? We had to all talk about the loneliness, the isolation, the collective grief. It. wasn't just one of us. It happened to. all of us. So there's all those feelings. that came up that I think finally are.

getting it talked about more and more. And I'm so glad you know I think the. other thing that co helped with is we. often think about death and grief as. those two are the only grief. But I. always say grief is a change you didn't. want. So a breakup is the death of that. relationship in the romantic form. A. divorce is the death of a marriage. A.

job loss is the death of that paycheck. with those people. In COVID, we. collectively lost our freedom, our. contact, our touching one another. So, we live with so many types of grief and. loss. And I am so glad we're finally. talking about it more. I loved I saw an. interview you did and I loved what you. said. um you were on a walk during COVID. with a friend of yours and someone came. up to you and was expressing her grief.

over having to reschedule her wedding. and you just lost your son not too long. before that and your friend was like I. can't once the lady left I can't believe. she had the audacity to go on and on. about this wedding um with everything. you were going through and you were like. no it's not a comparison not a. competition and it is such a profound. empathetic way to think about people. And you're right, it's not about. comparison or well mine's bigger than. yours because it is still a loss and.

it's that person's reality. And it's. it's interesting that people always want. to know which is the worst grief. Is it. the death of a child? Is it a murder? Is. it this? Is it the loss of a you know a. marriage where the person's still. rejecting you? And all those things. And. what I said to my friend in that moment. is she's 20 years old. Her marriage got. cancelled because of COVID. She couldn't. have her. wedding. For her that is her worst loss,

right? She hasn't had the other things. And I think we too get into a mindset of. trying to compare. And yet it's about. our experience. And no two people grieve. alike. No. Every grief is so completely. unique, like our fingerprint. And so to. understand that when we're comparing, we're in our mind and we don't have a. broken mind, we have a broken heart. You're right. What are some tools that.

you could share with people about. dealing with grief? I think talking. about it. You know, sometimes people. will say, "My friend had this horrible. loss and they're so. isolated." And I often. think you might be isolating them. And. we isolate them when we don't see the. world as they. do. Like what's the world like through.

your eyes, through my eyes? Everyone's. got a different world, especially when. it comes to grief. And so it's that idea. of listening and being present. And one. of the things I don't think we. understand is grief must be witnessed. We need to witness without. fixing. You know, there is no let me. point out the bright side. Let me get. you to a better place. But let me let.

you have your experience. and I don't. know what it's like for you, but I'm. just going to show up and be with you. I. couldn't agree more. I lost my dad when. I was 19, and I can't tell you what. people said to me, but I can tell you. who showed up for me because you're in. this state. It doesn't I'm 40 now. It. doesn't matter that I was 19. You're. sort of in this, well, at least I was in. this fog and just living life through. autopilot for a while. And I, you don't. have a clue really what you're doing.

and you're just navigating the best you. can. And so I think I always try to. remind the people around me when they. are dealing with someone else's loss and. they are that person that they want to. know how do they show up for someone. I. just tell them just show up. Yes. And as. long as you're there and yes, not trying. to be like I'm going to get you through. this. Like people have to feel their. feelings and it could be so. uncomfortable for that other person. that's the trying to be the supportive. person cuz you you feel like you're.

never doing enough but just by being. there you really are and you're trying. to find the right words and your. scenario and situation is so true of. what happened to you. It's not what. people said that you remember. It's how. they were there that they showed up. And. the other thing you mentioned that's I. just want to point out is it's actually. been proven with science there's a thing. called grief brain brain fog that you. get when we are in grief we can't focus.

we can't concentrate we can't remember. and that's why we need people in our. lives to show up. One of the things we. say to grievers is what do you need? I. don't know what I need. I'm I'm barely. getting through the day. I I didn't make. a list. I didn't think they were going. to die, you know? Right. Let's be real. Finding clean, trustworthy, and. effective supplements these days is. hard. Too many brands hide behind. fillers, mystery additives, and natural. flavors just to cut corners and hope you.

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fastgrowingtreees.com/cloey. Now is the. perfect time to plant. Use Khloe to save. today. Offer is valid for a limited. time. Terms and conditions may apply. Can I ask you? Of course. So you. mentioned it was at 19 when he died. Grief is what's inside of us. Trauma and. grief are what's inside of us. It's not. really about the details. It's how we. experience them. How did you experience it at that time?

It was interesting. So when my my dad. died really quickly, he had esophageal. cancer and I think he died like six or. seven weeks after diagnosis of his. cancer. So it was really fast. And my. dad, I don't think was lying to us. I. don't think he could accept himself that. it was terminal, but he never used those. words with us. So, I just thought, "Oh, if I don't see him, this isn't real.". So, I at 19 sort of distracted myself.

with my friends. And um when he did die, I remember what guilt I felt for not. spending more time with him. But then. that guilt turned into anger cuz then I. was like, "Oh, no. I'm going to I need. someone to blame. So, I'm going to blame. my dad cuz he didn't tell me that it was. terminal. And in my head, I rationalized. it. If he would have told me, I would. have showed up more. But I don't know if. I would have. I just dealt with his. passing the best way I knew how. And my.

dad was. a healthy shaped man, right? And then. towards the end of he died in hospice at. the house. And towards the end, he was. very thin. And it was really hard for me. to see him like that. And so I think I. would have stayed away regardless cuz at. 19, I didn't know what else to do. I. wasn't mature enough to be like, "This. is the right thing to do. I'm going to. sit with him. I have limited time." I. didn't think that way. I'm just a dumb. 19-year-old. But I would say, "Huh, I. got to stop you there. I got to stop.

you. You weren't dumb. You weren't dumb. just, you know, we we are judgment. machines on planet Earth. We are we are. judgment machines. And I I I could maybe. compete with you on self- judgment. I I. probably would win. But, you know, here's the thing. People say to me, "My. loved one's ill. I'm going to force my. 19year-old, my 15year-old to spend time. with them." One of the things I say to.

young people and people who are adults, you're doing grief, right? You were. doing it in character as a. 19-year-old. 19 year olds don't know how. to do it. And you had a father who. didn't know how to die. It kind of goes. right back to he was as much in the. dark, too. We don't teach people how to. die, right? And so he's lost. You are. lost. So what are you going to do? You're going to be a 19year-old. Yeah,

there's no dumb in that. Well, and it's. interesting cuz every obviously I would. love more than anything to have my. father still here with me, but now that. I'm older, there's so many life lessons. that I've learned to navigate my life. now, 10 years ago. A friend of mine, she. passed away this past Halloween and left. behind a 13-year-old daughter. And you. know, the daughter when her mom was. dying still wanted to go out and.

celebrate Halloween. And I remember. saying to all of her friends, I did the. same thing. And I didn't I don't think I. shed a tear until his funeral cuz it. wasn't real to me. I just remember I was. avoiding avoiding and then the funeral. is like, "Okay, now this is my reality.". And I processed it. But it's so. interesting things that I would probably. be so judgmental on if I didn't have the. experience of losing my father. I have. so much empathy and understanding for. when other people are on their journey.

And as horrible as it is, but there's so. many different elements of who I am. today that I wouldn't be if my dad was. here because he would be that person. that we would always lean on. Like. there's so much I don't want to say good. that came out of him passing cuz that's. not the right thing to say but with such. grief you can find these glimmers of. greatness that does come or like I. forever have this guardian angel that I. know things are working out because he's.

up there meddling around and how lucky. they are to have you in your in their. life because you you do know this world. You get, you know, once we've had a. loss, we get X-ray vision. You're like, "Oh, I know that 13-year-old." Now, I. want to go back if we can to the guilt. and anger cuz I want to make sure to. give folks some understanding of this. First of all, anger is grief. I think. many people don't realize it's grief.

And anger, I often think, is pain's. bodyguard. It is. The anger shows up first to. protect you. And 19-year-old you had to shut down on. all of that to survive. You know, I I. always say if you had all the feelings. of your father's death in that day and I. had all the feelings of either my. mother's death or my younger son's death.

in one day, we would be on the floor and. we would never get up. Right? There's a. grace in denial. You're so right about that. Denial paces. things out so that we can digest it a. little slower. You couldn't have taken. it in, right? And the. guilt, I always say, and this is an. interesting one to think about, we would. always rather feel guilty than helpless.

Mhm. A 19-year-old or anyone really when. they experience grief sometimes life is. out of control. What he died some more. people could die. So what happens? Our. guilt gives us the illusion of control. Oh maybe if I had showed up more it'd be. different. It would feel different. All. that and it's like a Rubik's cube that. we play with so that the feelings don't. overpower us. Right? Can you go back and. see that 19-year-old different now with.

those thoughts? No, I can completely. And I think what's so interesting is how. you said it comes in phases because we. couldn't handle it if it was all knocked. us off of our feet in one wave. And. you're so right about that and I think. we should almost thank the phases and. encourage that as opposed to Absolutely. Absolutely. because it's it is you get. just so flooded with so many emotions. So that's how you held it then. How do.

you hold his death today? I'm totally at. peace with his death. I will say for. about I always say like for about 3. years I was incredibly angry and I was. filming my show Keeping Up with the. Kardashians and on season 1 I remember. one of my producers was making me do an. interview about my dad cuz I wouldn't. talk about my dad cuz at that time if I. spoke about him I would just break down. and I was so annoyed at this producer. I. was like, "Why are they making me sit in.

this dark room and talk about something. I don't want to talk about?" And it was. honestly how we said at the beginning of. this conversation, we're so happy that. cuz people do need to talk about this. more. It was as if a house got lifted. off of me after that conversation. And I. was kicking and screaming while doing. it. But as soon as I had that. conversation, that was the last time. that I cried when talking about my dad. Like in a bad way, I let go of all of.

this guilt and anger. And now I could. talk about my dad with smiles and. happiness and admiration and. understanding. Even the understanding of. cuz I used to be so angry. Why wouldn't. he tell us that this was. terminal? And but I could understand how. hard now that I have kids too. how hard. that would have to be to admit to. yourself, I'm not going to be here for. my children. But maybe he. also he's Superman, right? Like maybe he.

thought it wouldn't be terminal and that. he could fight that. There's a lot of. right he was going to maybe beat it at. the end or. I could have a million conversations. with strangers. It's really hard like oh. my gosh even to talk to my older son. about you know his younger brother's. death. It's hard to see like for your. dad I think about to have to look into. all of your faces your sister your. brother and to say goodbye. Yeah. I mean.

brutal. Brutal. Brutal. Yes. And. so it's the best he could do. It's how. society taught him. Mhm. We also have a. medical system that misleads people. We. don't know how to even tell people who. are dying the truth always, right? And. prepare families still today that oh, you know, there is a time for optimism. And I'm the most optimistic person in. the world. There's a time for optimism.

I believe you. And I am. And there is a. time when optimism becomes denial. And. we're not great at understanding that. That's why these kind of conversations. just will mean the world to people who. are like, "No one's talked to me." And. you know the thing that the producer. did, I'm I'm always uh I I say people. need to do this in their own time, in. their own way. So I wish you would have. had more choice in that. It was very.

producerheavy like in hindsight, but it. it did got you there. get me over that. because. somehow they became the camera, the. audience became a safe place for you to. talk. And what you learned is we can't. heal what we don't feel, right? And you. got to say it. I also know that, you. know, we both love writing and one of. the things I love about writing is it's.

a place you can witness your own grief. because we have distortions. We have. stories around death. I remember I used. to always think since my mother died at. 13, she abandoned me. And then I did this exercise with myself. on paper. I wrote this story out from my. father's perspective who wasn't good. with grief. I thought, what's it like. for him? His wife's dying and he's got.

this kid he doesn't know how to raise. What's it like for these nurses that. won't let me in? Oh, they've been told. these rules that are best for the. patient. And then I thought about my. mother. This woman who has to say. goodbye to her child, doesn't know why. people aren't visiting. She probably. didn't know about the visiting hours. And once I put it on paper, I suddenly. got, "My mother didn't abandon me. She. died.".

Abandonment was a story my distorted. mind made up as a child. Children's. minds always think they're at fault or. something's wrong. Where do you think. you get your optimism from? Because all. the events that you said to me right. now, that would make me so angry at all. of those individuals. Oh, anger is my. go-to emotion. Oh, believe me, I get. angry. It's like one of my go-to. emotions, but I try to really release.

it. My father was steeped in his. addiction. Didn't know how to be a. parent, but oh my gosh, the biggest. optimist. If I said to my father, "I. think I want to be an astronaut," he. would go, "Well, which planet?" He would. never say, "Well, how's your eyesight? Do you think you'll get in?" I mean, and. I think I got some of it from him. I got. a lot of other things from him. I wish I. didn't, but I got a lot of good things. from him, too. But like you said, not to.

be confused with what' you say, denial, right? Yes. That we confuse like you. know, at a certain point, optimism can. become denial, right? And I'll tell you, sometimes people can also distort. religion and spirituality. I mean, what. breaks my heart so many times. is I'll hear a child say, "I guess I. didn't pray hard enough." Oh, that's so. sad. And I try to really teach people,

you know, that the idea that sometimes healing. isn't of the body. And we so internalize. everything. I know. And with children, they're like puddle jumpers just like. you. They go into the pain, then they. jump out back to school, they play, they. go in, they go out, and they have to do. grief their way. One of the things. people often ask me that you already. have mentioned here is what's the goal. of.

grief? It's to remember with more love. than pain in your own time, in your own. way. M not anyone else's way, not the. person who's telling you to move on or. get over it or why are you still in it, but in your time in your way. You know, you mentioned the idea of some of the. gifts that you got from your dad's. death. I talk about that as. meaning and just like you said, people.

think like, oh wait, how does something. good happen? I always say no matter what. comes out of anyone's death, I'd rather. have them back. That goes without. saying. 100%. Yes. But I know when my. younger son died, he loved my work. M. and I had that moment that I. thought I live in this cute little. neighborhood, these little small cute. houses. And I pictured someday in the.

future, teenagers riding by my house and. going, "Who lives in the haunted house? What's that? Cobwebs, all that." And. someone would go, "Ooh, it's the grief. expert." And then one day his son died. and he never came out again. Chloe, I. knew that could happen. Wow. And you. know, I. thought my son loved my work so.

much his. death can constrict it or expand it. Yes. And all of us after we've had any. kind of. grief, after we've gone through so much. of the pain, so much of the hurt on our. time, then have a decision to make, right? Do we stay or do we begin to swim. again? Does this event constrict us or.

expand us? And I love, you know, how. things have expanded you and how you can. get messy and show it. And, you know, I. I I think we all need that in life. So, I'm going to get messier in your honor. online a little bit more. I just But I. want to let people know that, you know, one of the things people don't realize. is all the colors of grief. People think. it's happy, sad, angry. No, it's not.

Right. There's bitter, there's jealous, there's upset, there's good days, there's bad days, there's a million of. them. You're right. And not that I feel. like you need to do that. I just if. because if you're not feeling that. that's in you to do it, then don't force. yourself to do it. Just the same thing. If you're still grieving, don't force. yourself to have an end date because. somebody else and there is no end date. No. I mean, people say to me like, "My. loved one there, my sister, someone. died. So, tell me, my brother, my mom, dad, how long how long we're going to.

grieve?" And I always go, "Well, how. long are they going to be dead?" Right? If they're going to be dead for a long. time, you're going to grieve for a long. time, but hopefully with more love. When. we talk, I feel your dad's love through. this. One of the things I always say is it's. talked about Einstein that energy can't. be created or destroyed. I say this all. the time. And when your dad died, a part.

of you died with him. But a part of him. lives on in you that replaced that part. So we're always still whole after people. die because we have a part of them with. us. Yeah. I believe that for sure. Do. you ever feel him? Yes, I feel him a. lot. My sister Kim will dream about him. I don't necessarily dream of him, which.

sometimes I get jealous about. Right. Right. And I'm like, well, why does she. get to see him in the dreams and I. don't. But then I try to, you know, be. happy for her and I'm like, okay, it's. fine. Because I feel him in ways that. she doesn't. I think we all, me and all. my siblings, we do in different ways. And you all had different relationships. with him. And my little sisters who. that's not their biological, that's not. their dad, right? Um they have signs cuz. they were really close to him and they. feel him or he'll come to them. And I.

think it's such a beautiful thing. Some. people get scared or sad. And I I look. for it. I love that. And I think it's. fascinating. It is the place where. psychology and religion, I think, coincide. Years ago, it was thought, let's help someone find. closure. And we know now we don't close. the book ever. No. And we learn to live. with that loss. And now we talk about.

continuing connections, continuing. bonds. I wore my dad's old antique watch. today in honor of us talking about. fathers. You know that. he still lives within me. And one of the. things that was really shocking to me, this is the other side is when my father. was dying, he was just in such. despair. And at one point a day or two. before it shifted and he seemed okay.

And I said, "What happened?" And he. said, "Your mother came to visit me.". Oh, wow. And I'm going to be with her. again. Doesn't that give you a little. absolutely peace? And he said, you know, we're all going to be together. again. And I did a lot of research on. that about this idea of how the dead. come to greet the dying. Wow. and. how all religions, people, no matter who.

you are in the world, this experience. happens. And I think that veil between. life and death is. thin and it's meaningful and for us to. just be a little more open. And I mean. so many times we want proof but I think. religion tells us, spirituality tells us. and psychology now says those bonds. continue. You know I always say don't. give death any more power than it.

already has. It has the power to. physically take our loved ones. It. doesn't have the power to end their. eternal life. It doesn't have the power. to end our relationship. And it doesn't. have the power to end our love. I have no fear of dying at all. I. because I I know where I'm going. I know. who I'm going to see. Like I have such. faith and confidence in that. I'm not I. don't want to leave my children, but I'm. not afraid of when it is my time to go.

I just hope it's in a very long time. Are you someone that has a fear of. death? It depends on the day. Okay. And. this is a hard world to leave. So there's been times when I'm like up. yeah if it happened I'd be fine. And one. of the things I really try to practice. is enough. Am I enough? Can this be it? Because and. yet I also know from being with so many. dying.

people, we don't let go of this body. easy. We want to stay. We want to be. there for our loved ones. They never. look ready, feel ready. So I think it is. hard. But in terms of just fear of. death, no. Like you, I'm like, what if. we don't arrive into an. emptiness, but instead we're in a. fullness? Everyone we've ever loved and. known is there with us. You know what?

If birth isn't a beginning and death. isn't an ending, when I've been with. people who have. died, there's an essence to them. Like. there's an essence I feel. And sometimes. when you're with people who are. dying, six. months, a month, an hour, depending on. if they were in a coma, whatever, you. can feel they're kind of gone already, right? And when you're with someone. who's died and you're with their. body, they're gone.

Whoever that was, that energy, that was. a suit of clothes that we wore this. lifetime. Have you ever been around someone who. has passed and then came back to life, like had a near-death experience? I've. met people with near-death experience. I've also met a lot of people who were, you know, revived and, you know, sometimes they see the tunnel, sometimes. they don't and all those things. And. what's fascinating to me is in all my.

years of this work and people sitting. with people who visit as they're dying, relatives, it's always comforting. No one goes, "Oh, I don't want to go. there." Sometimes they go, "I don't want. to go yet." Right? But it's really. interesting that people seem to find. peace even if it's in that last second. It's I read a bunch of books about. near-death experiences. I don't know why. I'm a little morbid and find that just.

so fascinating to me. And most of the. time when they are now back and living. again, they feel this emptiness. Not. that they want to die, but of just what. they saw was so peaceful and beautiful. and they did see familiar faces or. energy feelings. It's like reassuring. It's calming. Absolutely. For me, because I felt like, oh my gosh, you. know, the end of life, the end, and I.

had my own religious and spiritual. beliefs. But when I did my research and. writing around how the dead come to. greet the dying, and it was interesting, the people that I interviewed were. doctors, nurses, social workers, paramedics, because I didn't want anyone. to sort of dispute that about all their. stories who in the corner of the room, their dad was there, their mom, someone. came to greet them. We don't die alone. That's so beautiful. We don't, you know,

whether it's their religious belief. happens and no one got anyone that upset. them. You don't see an enemy and all. that. There was actually one person who. she had been a victim of domestic. violence. And I remember when she was. dying, she was so afraid that the person. who hurt her was going to be there. waiting because he had already died. And. she died so peacefully. We, you know, there's there's something about it's. only the love then. It's only the love.

we're with. What is your release through. times like that? Because you've seen so. many people die before you. So when does. it not I'm sure at a certain point it. just. becomes a norm for you seeing that or. does it ever? It has made. me appreciate life more. I feel more present. There's times I'm. in a really bad space and I have to see. someone or go online or do something and.

like takes me to a higher place. It's it. is my meditation when I'm serving. someone. and we're all going to experience this. and it makes me take more joy in life. This is a world we've all been given. And when we're stressed and in trouble, I'm like, "Okay, feel it. Enjoy it. This. is what stress feels like on planet. Earth." And not, you know, I think it's.

not about being so heavenly you're no. earthly good. It's like, "Oh, this is. this world. This is what happens. This. is how we live here. Oh, this is what a. bad day feels like. Let me enjoy a bad. day on planet Earth without trying to. change it." One of the things when I. work with people in grief, I often work. through a lot of the. what-ifs. What if I had done this? What. if I had tried this? What? And you can. learn this with people in life. We all. have. You don't even need to die. All.

the whatifs. And then I go through the. whatifs and I help them understand that. even if they did the what if, the person. would have still died, right? or they. would have still had taken that action. or had their addiction or did their. relationship the way that whatever it is. or the job. And I eventually get them to. cross out on a piece of paper the what. if and write even if. even if I had been there more, my dad.

still would have died. Right? It's just. that reality and to just be with this. thing that we can't accept. And I think. that's so important to change the what. if to even if because so many people. beat themselves up for years, decades. over. But if I only was there five. minutes sooner, you know what's meant to. be is going to be. If it's your time, it's your time. And picture this. If I.

was sitting in a restaurant and I was. sitting there alone and there was a. couple next to me, it's two people. talking and one said they just had a. horrible loss, whatever the loss may be. And the other person was like, "You need. to get it together. You need to all. that. You need to This is self-pity. I'm. tired of your pity party." I'd be like, "Excuse. me. She's just had a horrible loss. She. needs kindness.

And yet the person we have this hallmark. version that in grief we're going to be. so kind to everyone and to ourselves. Nope. We're brutal to ourselves after. loss. My mom lost her sister a year ago, right? And. she has taken that death of course, but. so so hard. And but she's so what if. what if I I should have done this or I. should have done this better. And she. seems to not be that type of person. She.

seems like let's just grieve but not to. really question some cuz she's so. methodical. She plans everything. methodical in a great way. Everything's. organized and planned. So the fact that. she's going back and retracing her steps. and wanting wishing she did things. differently. It's always so interesting. to me cuz in my eyes she's done. everything that she possibly can. Now. here's a tip for that. Yes. If someone's. going, "If only I had done this and what. if I had done that." Our tendency out of. love is to go, "Don't talk that way. You.

couldn't have done anything." But. instead to go, "Tell me about it. Play. it out. Let me hear it." Because people. get so shut down and they don't get to. talk about it. So sometimes we need time. to explore the whatifs and have our. detective hat and be in the pain. You're. right. Cuz I've definitely. never let her do that. Not that I've. been mean. I've always been like, "But. you've done you did everything. I just.

try to remind her how much she did do.". But I've never said, "Yeah, tell me. about it. What would you have done. differently?" And what would that have. done? Mhm. How would that have helped? And here's the really important one. Well, if I had done this, saw them more, been there, gotten there sooner, then I. go with, "Do you think that's really. true?" And sometimes I'll say to. someone, someone will go, "If I'd gotten. to the hospital after they fully.

explored it, I'll say, "I wonder if we. can always save people by getting to the. hospital on time. M. I wonder does that always play out that. way? Right. Yes. Basically having them. arrive at the conclusion on their own. And that's our inner wisdom we have to. get to. Right. Why don't we talk a. little bit about the grief of non-death. losses? Yes. Cuz I think it's important. for people to sometimes give themselves.

permission to go through grief. I. sometimes think people think, "Oh, it's. so trivial. It's a job or a divorce or a. breakup." But I do think that it's all. relative to what they're going through. in their lives. Absolutely. And every. grief has a little nuance. I mean, someone dies, you're never seeing them. again, right? A divorce, wait, they can. be on earth rejecting you every single. day, not wanting you. It kind of feels. like the grief that can keep giving. One.

of the things when I talk to people who. are dealing with divorce and. breakups, we're grieving the person. who's left, but we also have this. distorted thinking that the person. that's divorcing you or leaving you or. with someone else or acting out was your. soulmate. And so they have this grief of. the relationship ending, but also the. grief of losing their soulmate. And I remind them, I don't believe your.

soulmate is the one who leaves. I think. your soulmate's the one who stays. Right? So, I think that's a challenge in. the relationship. once, betrayal, a huge grief, the loss. of trust, the loss of. security, job loss, the loss of pay, you. know, there's so many abuse, the loss of. self. Mhm. So, and loss, you know, these.

luckily those griefs we can we can bring. ourself back to life. We can find. ourselves again. hopefully. I have a few friends. that they're not out of that stage. Well, and we think there's some. something important, some loyalty in the. pain and also our old wounds show up in. grief. Like you would think when you're. overwhelmed in. grief, well why on earth would my old. wounds show up right now? I mean, I'm.

overwhelmed. And yet old wounds come up. Our old trauma comes up in stress. And. grief is clearly a time of stress. Divorce, death, huge stressful times. You're right. May I Yes. ask you please. about something that I saw recently and. I thought about Okay. in your life and. your. experience. I think about that get. together that you had with Lamar. Yes. I.

looked at that and go when people go she. shut down. I was like that's grief. Oh, I did shut down that. But that's grief. That's traumatic grief. The weird Sorry. to interrupt you. The weird thing is I. didn't know I shut down in real time. I. remember when I left and I think it was. like hours later I was sort of like what. just happened? I couldn't recall exactly.

what was said. I needed I think even. like a week or two to process and almost. my memory started coming back. I. definitely wasn't autopilot. I was just. there coasting. But I couldn't have told. you if you asked me after. So how was. that talk? I would have been like what. did we talk about? My heart went out to. you. Oh, thank you. Can I tell you a bit. about that from just the outside and see. if it fits? Totally. First of all, you're trying to do repair work and.

you're trying to do repair work with. this person who was the love of your. life and everything went so badly out of. your control despite your best efforts. And here's when I looked at you and. watched that. I saw the moment he was. late, I thought, "This is not going to. be good for her." And I thought, "Talk. about post-traumatic stress that your.

mind has to go into probably as it did. lots of times with him." Exactly. He's. late. What's going on? Is he okay? What. happened? And so it has to go into. protection mode, right? It had to go. there. It's unconscious. You didn't. That's why it's so out of body now, right? Cuz you were just feeling, "Oh my. gosh, have I lost him again? Did he die. again? This is what happened. How many. days, nights, and all that?" Yes. Now,

those are his wounds. If I was talking. to him, I'd be having a different talk. or both of you together. But this is. about your reaction that I felt like got. a little overjudged. and and that you know here you are. thrown back into it. It's also a moment. I thought you're really seeing clearly. Mhm. You're going, "Oh, this isn't the. person I.

imagine. This is who he really is. Let. me really meet him.". And it was really hard. And I think we. don't talk about those griefs around. those relationships. You must have had. so much grief day and night. And just as. someone who's dealt with addiction and. my own son dying of it, it's brutal. And. there's no It's brutal. There's.

no happy place you get to. No. And even. I think even when people do. recover, the person that was on that. journey with you when you were not. sober, it's hard for them to recover. So. just because that addict might recover, the bystander doesn't always because. they have so much PTSD and it's like you. said when I felt totally fine and I was. excited to meet with Lamar and then when.

he was late instantly I sort of blacked. out and I was like okay I'm not here my. trauma goes just coast autopilot and I. just may I get by and then what they. showed I I think was maybe 20 or 30. minutes tops and we were there for 4 and. 1/2 hours and the first hour was not. speak. He would not speak. It was just. sweating, tardiness. He was so. uncomfortable. But then I was.

uncomfortable. How much of your. relationship were you doing the. work? Were you doing a lot of work to. help him in his addiction? Yes. And. here he arrives and you're doing the. work again. M now my heart goes out to. him. He's got a horrible disease. Yes. That is a lot for him. But when we talk about grief, going back. to what I said about grief must be. witnessed. Even in those moments that. you said it was four months of misery.

Yeah. I don't remember. that. Oh, your grief's not being. witnessed in that moment. Right. I mean, I wanted and that made me very angry. Of. course. Of course it did. How could it. not? It made me angry. But I will say. like I stand by a lot of my responses in. that meeting. But then also some I was. like why am I snapping at him right now? Some I was like I'm because you were. angry and hurt and thrown.

into an old situation. I mean, we all. have this idea of what's today going to. be like and you expected him hopefully. on time and you're reconnecting and. here's your stuff and it's so different. than what you expected. Yes, it. definitely was. I have so much. compassion for you both for you all. because it's it's. two horribly wounded people trying to do. repair work. And I think one of the. things we miss in life sometimes first.

of all in grief it's a time when people. close to us cannot get it and feel like. strangers and strangers can feel like. friends and family right I get that we. often want the person that hurt us to do. the repair. work and it's going to be done by. others. Mhm. That's the openness to try to find right. to allow that repair work to come in.

The next time there's. a similar but different situation. Mhm. And you did the best you could and so. did he. And I'm like, bravo for both of. you for showing up and just trying it. Yeah, we both tried it. I was very proud. of him because I'm sure that was very. intimidating for him, you know, coming. to my best friend's house. Like it was. more in my comfort zone than his. And I.

was very proud of him. Although he was. late, but that's okay. Okay, hang on. Which had to be a huge trigger. Oh, major huge trigger. Which like the. moment it happened, I'm like, "Oh my. gosh, this is going to go bad just. because of the lateness." And then when. I heard like 20 minutes, 40, I'm like, "Oh, not going well." No. All right. One. more thing here. You said how proud you. are of him and you lit up with how proud. you are of him. Can you be that proud of you? I'm I'm. proud of me. I'm proud that I got. through it. And you know, your.

protection systems needed to kick in and. they did. That's how you had to survive. Yes. That's how you had to survive those. moments. One of the things about grief. and loss and breakups and divorce and. betrayals and death and everything is we. continue. We survive. We're very. resilient. We're very resilient. I. always say we're resilient and fragile. all at the same time. We are. And I. don't think we give ourselves enough.

acknowledgement for either one of them. because we are for sure. If you were to. go out there. again, dating wise, life-wise, what stories come up in your. mind? Bad. Yes. Okay. And here's why. You're still trying to process them. And. so, you're living in that reality. And. what we do is unknowingly we take the. bricks of our last relationship to try. to build the next ones. And none of us.

want to do that. M so it is about what. do you. think cuz I think there's some grief. work there still what do you think there. is around your past relationships. because I had so much abandonment in. mine. what do you think that story is that. needs to be healed for you to just go. out there as an open book whether you go. out there next week or next year or in. 10 years but you arrive as an open book.

what story is saying, "Please heal me.". I think for me, I need to to learn to. trust myself again because I feel like. I've let myself down trustwise. And. because I've made bad choices in the. past, I'm afraid to make another choice. and have it be the same outcome. And. those choices, and I'm sorry to say this. because I know some of them were really.

painful. Yeah. were the right choices. that you needed to go through to get to. the next place. And. so you want to make. sure we choose people. And here's the. thing, we go, we're attracted to the. wrong people or we bring the wrong. people. It's like, let me not choose. familiar. There's something familiar about. that. I gotta tell you, I was a.

attractor of people. subconsciously that I knew were going to. leave. Let me tell you, how did you identify. that though? Oh my gosh. I learned if I. went into a party and there's one. charismatic person that I heard, oh my. gosh, you know, tricky, I'm like, I got. to go talk to them. I mean, I was going. to change them. I saw their potential, all that stuff. shockingly by doing the grief work.

Okay. So, you're willing to go deep for a. second? Sure. All right. I don't know that this is true, but it. was true for me. Mhm. There. is a. grief around my. mother. that I thought needed to be. repaired by other strong women. And. eventually instead of doing the.

relationship repair work, I had to do. the grief repair work. And the grief. repair work was to get this. And this is. what was so hard. And I didn't even. think I consciously was doing it in my. whole. life. No matter where I looked, how I. looked, what they look like, how strong, how. familiar, they're never going to be my. mother.

I had to really. grieve. She was the one and only in that. time span. And I wonder if there's a part of you, and only you know this, that. like I have to really just go so. deep into. this father that I deserved for the rest. of my life. Mhm. And to. just know that I could meet a million.

great. guys. No one's ever going to be him. What's so interesting is I've thought. like is this something related to my. dad, but all of their characteristics I. feel like are so different from my dad. Not bad, not good, just they're. indifferent. They're I'm not talking. about characteristics. Tell me. I'm. talking about filling a hole. I could. see that. Here's where it gets really. crazy. Filling the hole is accepting.

It's never going to be filled. I don't. know if this is a great comparison, but. I used to say, you know, when you lose. someone, it's like if you were born with. all your limbs, then you lose a limb. It's not that you don't go on, you go. on. And you learn to adapt to life. without that limb. But you always know. that it's not there. It's never the. same. But you you do go on, you do. survive. It's just never the same and. you miss it all the time. And yes, I I.

get that analogy so much because it's. never going to be filled and no one. could feel that and no one should, right? And we often know that. consciously. but it's an inner work. So how do you do. that inner work? I think it's just. starts with this awareness. Okay. It's. just that awareness. of, oh gosh, I like that person and I. miss my dad all the time and I'm never.

going to find my dad in the world again. and let me just show up fully for this. person because there's a. familiarity in people that's not. characteristics. That's what's so hard. And the thing is. sometimes when we've lost someone. through. death, we seek. out. subconsciously people who are not.

predictable. So that this time they'll stay. That's really fascinating. I saw that in. your eyes. Yeah, I saw that hit. It's. clicking. Maybe this one will stay the way my dad. should have. And of course, your dad. couldn't. Yeah. But none of this is. logical. It's matters of the heart. Right. Do you think it's irresponsible. to tell your kids, like I tell my kids.

all the time, like I'm never going to. leave you. Do you think that's. irresponsible to say? Here's the thing. The moment there's been a death in the. family, a grandparent, kids immediately. go to, "Mommy, are you going to die?". And the answer is, "Yes, honey. Someday. I'm going to die." Yeah. But I'm doing. so many things to have a really long. life because I want to have a long life. with you and I want you to have a long. life. That's why I do this and this and.

this. It's all so we can have so much. time. So always be honest. Yes. Okay? Cuz at some point they're going to make. the calculation of your dad died at this. age and someday you're going to hit that. age, right? And then you're going to have to. reassure them and yourself that you're. going to outlive his lifetime, right? I. think that's really important to for. people to hear and know for me at least.

too because we've had they know that my. dad has died but he didn't die when they. were alive right but my daughter lost. her grandma ex's mom when she was young. but she. was I think she was like four so she. wasn't that aware but she'll like ask. about her she has dreams dreams of her, but she hasn't asked me yet. When are. you going to die? She just thinks I'm.

going to be 150 cuz she always tells me. that. Great. And you don't need to bring. it up until they ask. And kids are often. the forgotten grievers. So, it's so good. that when we have those conversations, people will say to me, uh, oh, the the. goldfish died, the this happened, the. you know, the pet died. We told them the. dog ran away. I'm like, what's your. plan? Mhm. What's your plan to teach. them about grief? And I'll say the. moment grief happens in our children's.

life, someone dies, that's the moment to. teach them. And I think the hardest. thing is to be honest, right? You know, no one wants to be honest with kids. We. want them to be happy. Will you talk a. little bit about your website? Sure. Yes. I think that's so important for. people. Well, thanks. The website is. grief.com and on it there's so many. resources there for people to get. There's groups, there's videos you can. watch. I'm also trying to post things on.

social media. It's I am David Kesler. David Kesler was already taken so I had. to be I am David Kesler. And just to. give people resources to talk about. these things. I I love that I do the. books. I have one on the afterlife that. I mentioned to you before. There's also. just ones about finding meaning and. getting through the pain and chiseling. through that. And just to know there's. help out there for everyone. There's.

help. So, grief.com, grief.com. And I. think it's so important for people. A. lot of people feel so much shame in. their grief. And I think for them to. know that they have that outlet and just. to hear also your voice and how. compassionate and empathetic you are for. everybody in all their stages and you. really are the master at you know. helping people find their way and I know. I'm so grateful and I know I've taken. more of your time than I should have.

had. And let me just tell you, here's. the thing that I think is surprising. about what you just said is when people. think like about grief groups I do, they. think, "Oh, is it six people on chairs. online?" It's hundreds and hundreds. And. the thing that people don't realize is. it helps so much with the loneliness. And we find ourselves in each other's. stories. Some people talk upfront, but. some people in tender hearts are just in. the background listening. So, and we. grow and learn. And thank you again for.

doing this. I want to leave you with one. small thing that I hope will encourage. people. What we run from pursues us and what we. face transforms us. Amen.