You're Not Stuck With Your Personality (Here’s How to Rewire It Today)

People think that you were born with. your personality and you're just stuck. with it, but just because you've always. been a certain way doesn't mean you have. to stay that way. Olga Khazan. >> The author of Me, but Better. >> The science and promise of personality. change. Can an introvert actually become. an extrovert if they want to? Rather. than permanently changing, learn the. ability to try on this personality. trait. Put on extraversion. Is there an age at which it's impossible. to change our personalities? Some people.

change more after they're 30. Different. choices that we make can change us. throughout our lives. What's the difference between changing. our habits and changing our personality. traits? So, you can actually fake it. until you make it. Once you do your. habits often enough, they will become. part of your personality and it won't. feel fake anymore. It'll feel like it's. part of your identity. How does this apply to people who are. diagnosed with depression or ADHD? Can. they also change or is that very.

>> actually been this push in psychology to. identify the personality traits that are. associated with things like depression. and ADHD and. actually has gone head-to-head with. Lexapro, the antidepressant, and it. works just as well. The number one health and wellness. podcast Jay Shetty Jay Shetty The one, the only Jay Shetty. Olga, I wanted to dive straight in and. the first thing I wanted to ask you is. if someone listens to this episode, if.

someone reads your book. what are you hoping they can change and. shift in their life? What are you hoping. for them? I hope that they realize that. whatever is kind of wrong in their life. or not working for them currently, that. they can change that no matter what age. they are or where they live or what kind. of job they have. You know, if they feel. like they don't have enough community. support, they don't have enough friends, that they can go out and make those. friends. If they feel like their. progression in their career is being. blocked by inability to publicly speak. or connect with large audiences, that.

they can learn those skills. You know, if they feel kind of disorganized or. like they can't really get motivated, that they can learn organizational. skills and make that happen for. themselves. So, it's really just. whatever your goals are and that you're. able to align your traits and your. behaviors with your goals. I love that. I mean, that sounds like something we. all need and and applies to each and. every one of us. How did you discover. this to be a block? Like when did you. recognize that this was a block for. people and what was that block that you.

were facing and trying to solve? It was. really just that I was very unhappy and. there was no particular reason for it. So, it wasn't like, "Oh, if this just. gets resolved, I'll be happy again." You. know, I kind of start my book with this. anecdote about being in Miami in. December, a beautiful time to be in. Miami. You know, the weather is. unimpeachable, cannot be improved upon, staying in this great place, having a. great work-life balance, things with my. partner were good. It was before we had. our baby, so we weren't tired. But, I.

just had this day where I had all these. like minor frustrations. Um, you know, I. got a really bad haircut and I got stuck. in traffic and I I got some photos taken. of me that I wasn't crazy about. I was. just like, "Ugh, I hate these photos.". And I knew they were going to be. released widely. I had this like. frustrating incident at a grocery store. and I get back to our Airbnb where we're. staying and I just kind of have a. meltdown and I'm I I like kind of feel. just broadly unhappy with everything. You know, I immediately turned to.

alcohol, which is what I would do at the. time to manage my emotions. And I was. just sort of so frustrated. Um, and then. even like a few minutes later, I kind of. thought, "Hey, why am Why is this all. getting to me?" Like if you look at. anything about the situation, you know, I'm in this beautiful setting, nothing. is really wrong. I didn't get in a car. accident or, you know, I I wasn't even. late for anything. You know, I didn't. get fired from my job. My hair, whatever, grows back. I kind of realized. that so often minor frustrations would.

really add up to me because of my high. level of this trait called neuroticism, which is uh kind of associated with. depression and anxiety. And so I kind of. would get in these negative spirals. where I would kind of add up these small. things, these small negative events, and. let them kind of ruin my whole day or my. whole week or start this narrative where. my life is is so bad. I can never be. happy because these small frustrations. happen to me. And I decided to kind of try to change. that because you're never going to have.

a life without small frustrations. Like. nothing is ever going to go perfectly. So the only way to be happy is to be. able to be happy despite that. How did. that link to personality? There was some. interesting research coming out that. people can actually change their. personality traits. And when they do change their. personality traits, they actually. become, you know, happier, healthier, whatever it is that that trait is. correlated with. It it can really kind. of increase all these positive elements. of their lives.

And so we think of personality as. something that we're just kind of stuck. with. Like I am this kind of person and. this is what I will always do. I'm the. kind of person who will always get. frustrated by small inconveniences. But. really we have the ability to change the. way we respond to situations. We have. the ability to change our behaviors, even our kind of typical thought. patterns. And really by changing those. consistently, we have the ability to. change personality. So that's kind of. when I was like, maybe I should try a. version of this for myself. What is personality? Like how do you.

define it? Because I feel like it gets. thrown around and then it gets mixed. with so many different words. How do how. do you define it? Yeah, a lot of people. are like, oh, is it like the kind of. jokes you tell or, you know, whether. you're kind of loud and boisterous. Those are all kind of elements of. personality. The way that personality. scientists define it is the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most. naturally to you. So, something happens, someone honks at you at a red light, you. know, or something, you know, do you. flip them off? Do you wave at them cuz. you're really good-natured? You know, do.

you, you know, meditate to yourself? That kind of shows your personality and. the researcher that I follow the most. for this book, Nathan Hudson, who has. done a lot of the research on. personality change, he actually adds. another element to that, which is that. personality helps you get what you want. So, personality is how we go about. pursuing our goals. Agreeableness, which. is another personality trait, can help. you make more friends. It can attract. people to you. It can kind of make you, you know, one of those people who has.

like a huge bridal party at your. wedding. Conscientiousness can help you, you know, get up earlier, get more done. during the day, get promotions at work, and things like that if that's what. you're into. So, kind of on top of being. this like reflex and habit, it's also a. way that we pursue what we want out of. life. Why do you think all of us feel so. stuck in who we are and start to believe. things like, "I'm just not a funny. person. I'm just a disorganized person. I'm just a negative person." Why do we.

get so stuck? I think it's because we've. been told for a long time that. personality is permanent and that we. just are a certain way. I think some of. this comes from the fact that. personality is partly genetic. So, you. think that, you know, if something is. genetic, it's inherited, you're going to. be just like your parents. What are your parents like? They're like. this and that. You're going to be a. combo of that. It doesn't really work. that way. We do, obviously personality. is is, like everything, partly genetic, but that means that it it's kind of a. combination of different genes, the.

environment that you're in, and also. your own decisions and your own actions. and what you choose to do can shape your. personality. But, I think for a long. time the way scientists have talked. about it, it sort of did feel like a. death sentence kind of like you're going. to be this way forever. Um, you know, the famous William James quote, personality is set like plaster after. the age of 30. And so especially after. 30, people think that they're stuck. being a certain way. But really the more. recent psychological literature has.

shown that people actually change both. naturally just like without really. trying to. They they kind of change over. time and people can also change over. shorter periods of time by taking. concerted effort. Do we know how much. personality is nature versus nurture? It. depends on the trait and kind of the. person, but it's about 40 to 60%. heritable. And I want to caveat that heavily. So so that means it's it's let's say. let's call it half um comes from your. genes.

But if you think about it, you're not. like your parents' twin, right? So so. your genes you get genes from them, but. they kind of get combined in these. unexpected ways and they might manifest. in different ways depending on um the. environment that you grew up, the. environment that you live in now, what. kind of job you have. And so it's really. this gene environment interaction that. creates a lot of. unpredictability in in how your. personality is going to manifest. Just. because you know that you have something. genetically doesn't mean that you're. kind of doomed to be that way or that.

it's definitely going to turn out a. certain way. Is there an age from which. we can't change our personality? You. just gave that example of you know, that. old quote about the idea of 30 and it's. set in plaster. Is there an age at which. it's impossible to change our. personality? So there have been studies. that show that some people change more. after their 30 than before. So most. people change a a lot during their teen. years and especially during their early. 20s. Um so that's a time of. >> That makes sense. >> very rapid change. A lot of people kind.

of become a version of who they'll be. for a a part of their life during that. time. Both in my interviews with people. and in uh just the scientific. literature, people kind of change. throughout their lives across all the. traits. Different life events can change. us, different social roles, different. goals that we have, and different kind. of choices that we make can change us. throughout our lives. I like how. everything you mentioned are things that. people want to change for themselves, but not changing for people. Yeah, so.

that's been a big misconception about. this topic is people are like, "Well, I. don't want to change my personality to. please anyone." I'm. Don't do that. Don't change your. personality to please anyone. Like. that's definitely not my message. I. think you should change your personality. to please yourself and to get what you. want out of life, not to please other. people. So that's Yeah, that's like a. key distinction. Yeah, and and how do we. even go about knowing how we have to. change our personality? Because I think.

when you really believe it's almost like. living in a city. So it's like let's say. I've I was talking to someone yesterday. and they said, "I have lived in this. town for 31 years and I'm about to move. to a bigger city and I'm scared and. nervous.". That's almost what it feels like when. you're changing your personality because. you're like, "I have lived in this body. and this mind and this personality for. 31 years. I don't even know which other. city I want to live in. I don't even.

know which other personality I need or. want." How do you even unearth un- un-. cover. how you may want to change your. personality and what the right trait is? So there's. kind of the dorky scientific way and. then there's sort of less scientific. like woo-woo ways that might even work. better. So the scientific way is there's a big. five personality test. It'll It'll. measure where you fall along the five. personality traits. So it'll tell you.

kind of compared to everyone else on. Earth, you are much less extroverted. than other people. So, you're you know, you're very low on extraversion. And so, you might look at that score and think. to yourself, I'd like to change that. I'd like to be more outgoing. I'd like. to make new friends, whatever it is to. do with extraversion that you want. And. so, then you can go about pursuing that. goal. What I think you could also do is. just like think about your values and. think about what it is you you want out. of life. Like a lot of people say they. don't want to become more extroverted.

And I kind of think that's fine if. that's not a value that you have. But, I've also talked to a lot of people who. are like, "Look, I want to get, you. know, a job as a manager at work. I. don't want to, you know, be rank and. file forever. I want to grow in my. career." And that requires a certain. amount of extraversion. Like to lead. people, to speak persuasively, even just. to manage people requires you to have. extraversion skills. So, if you think. about that as a value for yourself, you. could start to consider whether. extraversion might be a trait that you.

want to work on. Another way that I did. this personally is that I kind of looked. at the people of in my life that I was. jealous of. So, I have a friend who's. very good at making friends. Like she. just is a huge people person and people. love her and are drawn to her. And she. could move to a new city and make 10. friends and be having dinner with them. that night. And I was really jealous of. that. I was like, I kind of want that. skill. Like I was actually like texting. her, like, "How do you do that?". Um and so, you could just look at your. life at, you know, the people who do.

things that you're kind of like, "Ooh, that's cool. Like I kind of want to do. that." Cuz that'll tell you the. personality traits that matter to you. Yeah, I've always talked about how you. can transform envy into study. Mhm. And. and that's kind of how I've been my. whole life. Anytime I've looked at. someone and admired them or liked. something that they have, whether it's a. trait, a skill, an ability, I'm like, "How did you get that?" Right? And it's. that idea. And but it's interesting, I've always been wired that way. So, that's always been my natural kind of. when you were saying your thoughts that. you naturally had. That's kind of how.

I've naturally always been. If I find. something impressive, I want to know how. to do it and how to build it and how to. grow it as opposed to feeling like. they're special and I can't have that if. that makes sense. What about those of us who just feel. "Well, people should like me for the way. I am. If I can't make friends as being. authentically me." And the word. authentic now has become this big. buzzword and trend. So, how does that fit into that idea of. "Well, people should love to hang out with you.

just the way you are. You shouldn't have. to be extroverted like your friend. Are. you being inauthentic by changing your. personality?" I mean, the truth is is. that no one is ever authentically. themselves 100%, right? That could be. kind of off-putting. If you just said. everything that came to your mind. without any kind of filter or like if I. think there was like a movie once where. it's like someone just said whatever. they were thinking and it like people. were very offended. You know, you know, it's we actually do have a a filter. between ourselves and other people.

because we know that people kind of. don't want that like completely raw like. spur-of-the-mind. thoughts that come to us. So, that's one. thing is that one, you're probably. already filtering yourself at least a. little bit. Maybe you're doing it in a. in a kind way where like, you know, if a. friend is in a bad relationship, you. don't necessarily want to be like, "Yeah, keep dating that guy." You know, but you you might say like, "Hey, like. have you thought about like what you're. getting out of this?" You know, but you. you might not just launch into a rant.

about how that person sucks, right? Like, you find ways of saying things. that appeal to people. The other thing. is that like how do you know what your. authentic self is? Like. >> Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying is. like I don't know that like we have. necessarily a genuine consistent. authentic self that we need to like. preserve at all costs. I think that a. lot of times our emotions are kind of. fleeting and if you say something one. day, you might not say it again the same.

way the next day. Or if you feel. something about about something one one. day, you might not feel that same way. the next week. So, you know, which one. of those is is authentic? You know, are. you exactly the same as you were in. college? If not, are you are you faking. it? Like, you know what I mean? It's we. all kind of change and shift over time. and depending on the situation. I don't. necessarily think there's anything wrong. with that. I think that's called growth. Yeah, it's weird how we're fascinated by. this addiction to authenticity right. now. Yeah, when I agree with you. I I.

think. authenticity is. you showing up in different ways at. different time with different people. because you can't possibly be the same. person with everyone. And you're not going to expose. your full self to everyone at all times. It's just not a natural thing to do. But it's weird that we have this guise. of authenticity that seems to be. clouding our ability to grow. When actually probably the most. authentic thing we can do as humans is.

to grow. Yeah, exactly. >> to change. Yeah, and I I don't know. I. just think that um. >> That's what survival is, right? >> Yeah, no no one is going to call you out. for I don't know, trying new things or. trying new skills or trying new new. traits. I think that that can also be a. part of authenticity. Anything that you. do for the first time is going to feel a. little inauthentic. That's the. interesting part is that we had Vin. Jieang on recently who's a communication. expert and public speaking expert.

And he was saying that we change how we. dress and we don't think that's. inauthentic, but then we don't change. the way we speak. He was saying that our. communication style remains exactly the. same our whole life. So, if we're. monotonous and boring and we just think. that's who we are, but the reality is. that we we are changing other parts of. ourselves. And you're right, when you. try a new hairstyle, it feels a little. uncomfortable for the first week. When. you try a new pair of shoes or a new fit. of clothing, it feels a bit. uncomfortable, and that's not. inauthentic. It's you trying to change.

your style or what fits you. And we can. do the same with our personality. What. are the gender effects on personality? Um women tend to be more uh. conscientious uh in some ways, more. agreeable, and also much more neurotic. Uh neuroticism is like highly associated. with being female. If someone wants to. be more extroverted, what do they do. every day? What do they need to change? >> All you have to do is talk to people. And it can take. >> When you don't want to. Yes. Who does. this work apply to? People in.

relationships where they want their. partner to change. And you'll hear. someone go, "I just see their potential. I knew I know who they could be. They. could They could really get it together, but they don't see it in themselves.". Yeah. >> Someone's thinking that way. How would. you encourage them to think about. change? I really wish I had written a. chapter of this book called how to. change your partner because every single. interviewer has asked me that question, and I don't really have a good answer. because we haven't really studied how to. change other people. What's the. difference between changing our habits.

and changing our personality traits? How. do they connect or This is a a huge. debate within psychology. I will try to. give the uh not super nerdy version of. it. So, some psychologists think that. habits basically become personality. traits after a period of time. So, if. you if it's your habit to do something. and you do it consistently for years, okay, you're now this is your. personality. Some psychologists think. that there's also an element of like. thought behind that where if you do.

something and you really like to do it, you kind of start to incorporate it into. your personality. You start to kind of. make it part of your identity. This is. like uh you know, people who become. runners and then they like kind of. identify as runners and they're like, "As a runner, you know." And they're. like running marathons. You know, that's. sort of like more part of their. personality is like exercising a ton and. being, you know, really we would say. conscientious about running. More so. than someone who just like kind of. mindlessly takes a jog every day and and.

they don't really think too much about. it. It's a gray area between those two. poles. Like uh I didn't used to be very. conscientious, but I am now and I can't. tell you exactly when the switch. happened from me just making a ton of. to-do lists and like leaving a relief. for everything and like being like, "Remember this, remember this." till. like now me just doing it naturally. To. me, it makes sense that. a habit somewhat lean into a personality. because a repetitive action or a. consistent action. feels like it becomes normality and then.

once it becomes normality, but I but I. appreciate the distinction between. for example, like a habit I have is to. brush my teeth twice a day, but I don't. identify. as a brusher of teeth, right? It's It's. something I do, but it's not an. identity. So, I I noticed that nuance, whereas. I play pickleball three to four times a. week and I consider myself to be a. pickler, right? That idea is there's an. identity associated with that. And is I. guess that's what you're saying is the.

difference between personality and. habit. >> Yeah, you incorporate it into yourself a. little bit more. Um I have I have one. example, which is public speaking is. part of my job, like speaking at events, moderating events, doing stuff like. this. And uh when I first started uh many. years ago, I was not good at it. I was. kind of painfully just like really shy. It made me really uncomfortable to do. things like this. And I kind of just. brute-forced, kind of tried to get. better at it. And I I worked super hard.

and it it did become a habit. I did I. had to do a ton of these events and like. we were always having them, especially. before COVID. And I kind of felt like. eventually I now really don't think. about it. Like I kind of like if an. event is coming up and I have to. moderate something, I'm like, "Okay, what time do I need to be there?" It's. not even a a process of like psyching. myself up or oh gosh, I'm so nervous. Even my physiological responses are not. the same. Like I don't get like sweaty. palms and kind of jittery and stuff like. that. So I I don't know. Like is is. being extroverted in that way I guess.

it's part of my personality now because. I kind of reflexively do it. But in that. intervening time, it was definitely. like, "I'm not extroverted. I'm trying. really hard to be and I'm building this. habit so that I can be." Yeah, my. experience is exactly the same. My I was. so shy growing up as a kid. My parents. forced me to go to public speaking drama. school from age 11 to 18. And I took. exams in public speaking. I was trained. 9 hours a week for 7 years, 8 years of. my life. And it transformed my ability.

to stand up in front of a room. I've now been public speaking since I. was 11. I'm 37 now, so it's what, 26. years of experience. So you could ask me. to give a talk on any subject in 3. minutes and I'd feel comfortable. Granted, the subject would have to be. something I'm aware of, not something. out of my expertise. But it would feel comfortable and easy. and I'd feel calm. If you asked me to do. that when I was 11, that would not be. the case. And if you asked me to do that. at 21, I would have had the skills, but.

I wouldn't have had the passion to talk. about things. And so I had to find what. I was passionate about. But I fully. believe that people aren't just born. with skills. That we notice them and I. think we've created this myth in society. where people are just magical or special. or gifted. And that actually does two. things. The first is it limits us from. becoming those people or achieving those. things. And the second thing is it.

actually discredits those people for the. amount of work they've put in. So, when. you look at the greatest athletes in the. world, I had the fortune of interviewing. Kobe Bryant few months before he passed. He was in the gym for twice as long as. everyone else. That's what he said, in. his words. So, you could argue he was. gifted and special and all those things, and I'm not saying he wasn't, but he. would say it was because he was in the. gym for twice as long as everyone else. He was getting a 4-hour shift in the gym. before anyone woke up, and that was the.

difference-maker in his mind. When you. look at Cristiano Ronaldo, who's the. biggest soccer player in the world, it's. the same. Anyone who's been in his. vicinity will say, "Well, he has a chef. that's dialed in for his health, and he. has the best recovery program, and he. has the best fitness and wellness. expert." When you look at it through his. head, it's all work. Mhm. Whereas when. you look at it from the outside, you. think it's magic and. gifted, right? And so, I think we. discredit that person's work ethic by. saying it's magic and special, and we.

actually. steal the opportunity from ourselves. from saying I can't do that because I. didn't I wasn't born with that. And so, I hope everyone who's listening is. having that recognition to say you can. do it. And anyone that you admire has. just put in the work, whether it's. public speaking like yourself, or. whether it's. playing 4 hours of basketball more than. the average person. Yeah, and that's. that's a great example. And that is the. same with personality change. Anyone who. has a skill or a trait that you admire.

has probably put a lot of effort into. that. How long does it take then to. change a personality trait? That's a. good question, and it really depends on. the trait. So, I found with. extraversion, extraversion was one of the traits that. I wanted to increase. I kind of felt. socially isolated and like I didn't. just really know a lot of people in my. community, and also just especially. after COVID, I was like I I kind of just. don't talk to anyone. Like I was in my. house all the time, and I even though it. was, you know, safe to to do so. So, uh. for that one, I noticed the changes.

really quickly. Like, I I found that I. went from a preference to just stay at. home on my couch and watch Netflix to a. preference to get out there and talk to. people, meet up with people, even if it's just at a in a surface. level way. I found that change happened. after like a couple months, like maybe a. month or two. With something more. performative, like I did improv classes. as well, that took several months for me. to truly get comfortable just because. I'm not, as I said, a natural performer, and I.

that gave me a lot of anxiety. So, that. one took a little bit longer. With. something like neuroticism, which is. depression and anxiety, it's something. that can be really rooted in yourself. Like, it's not purely behavioral, right? Like, you can notice that someone is. pretty calm-seeming, but they could be. really anxious on the inside. That can. take a rather long time to change and to. shift. But, it's possible. >> Yes. So, so the studies that we have. show like it's like a a few months of. therapy can really create a significant. change in neuroticism. What I did was.

like a meditation class that I think it. lasted 8 weeks or 12 weeks or something. like that. >> of meditation? It was MBSR, and it's. just pure mindfulness meditation for. dummies, nothing special to it. And that. did work to decrease my neuroticism. after, I think, like 3 months. >> How? What did it do? I am still totally. not sure what meditation. specifically does in the mind. I will. tell you what I think it did for me. So, this meditation class was a combination.

of sitting silently for 45 minutes every. day. or some sort of other mindful activity, like yoga or walking. And once a week, uh our teacher would. give like a presentation about a a topic. in Buddhism that is is probably very. very obvious to all of your listeners. Like, it's something that probably they. have heard of or have come across or are. aware of, right? It was It was not super. esoteric or like. late-breaking like Buddhist thoughts. It.

was It was very uh kind of simple. And I. sort of was like the whole time I was. like, "Is this really doing anything?". Like, I kind of already know about all. this Buddhist stuff. I've come across it. in my research. And this meditation is. just really boring. You know, is this what Is this working? And it did work. Uh my especially my. depression score went down considerably. throughout the course of this class. >> Is that a self score, or is it a So, all. of these are self scores. There's really. not a way to measure personality outside. of self-assessment. I would recommend.

for if people really want to get super. accurate scores, just do the tests a lot. frequently because then you'll kind of. get a sense of like where you're. falling, and it won't be like a random. fluke result. But, they're all self. scores. Uh but, mine went down from the. 94th percentile to the 39th percentile, which is a lot. My anxiety went down. My. depression just went significantly low. to to I think like I was considered like. not depressed. And I think it was from these like. Buddhist lessons that they taught us.

that somehow. >> that What's one that stood out to you? Okay, so there's one You're probably. familiar with this. Have you heard of. the double arrow? Mhm. So, the double. arrow for people who don't know is this. idea that something bad happens to you. Uh let's say you don't get as much work. done as you wanted to one day. And then. you sit there and berate yourself, "Why. didn't I get as much work done today as. I wanted? It's going to screw up. tomorrow, and I'm not going to get it. done on time, and my boss is going to be. mad." That second part is a second arrow. that you're basically shooting yourself. with after the initial misfortune has.

happened. I knew this going into the. meditation program. But, there was. something about someone kind of. explaining it to me as like a universal. human phenomenon and something that you. actually have control over. Like, you. don't have to shoot yourself with this. double arrow, the second arrow. You you. don't get any extra points in life from. having two arrow injuries. You can just. acknowledge that something bad happened. and think about, okay, what am I going. to do? How am I going to move forward in. a calm way without a lot of self-blame.

I think that really made the difference. for me. I a lot of my neuroticism came. from self-blame. And I think a lot of other people's. does, too. And that class was really. good if you're like a a self-blamer. It's It was It was very good at. increasing self-compassion. Having. meditated for a long time now, I I feel. like it's really beautiful hearing about. someone having an experience. that. in 8 weeks was able to reduce depression. that significantly. And even hearing about your experience.

is is really special because. I think one of the things I find most. interesting about the human mind is we. think because we've heard something. often that we understand it and that. we've realized it. And therefore we're. always looking for something new, not. realizing that actually it's that. age-old repetition of an idea that then. you get to live and breathe and apply. and then all of a sudden it transforms. your life. And it isn't always about. finding a new and I think this idea of.

always wanting a new show or a new. episode makes sense because that work. isn't healing or transformative. But. these ideas that are timeless, that have. been around for thousands of years, there's a reason why when they finally. hit, they have this effect that that, you. know, you're smiling in front of me. right now and nodding. It's It's that. feeling that you get that you only get. from something that heals you and. transforms you. Yeah. That you've heard. it a million times, but then when the. penny drops,

it it stays with you forever. So, there's a couple things about it. It was. a group class, so it was a It was Zoom. cuz of the pandemic. People were kind of. all sharing their struggles and we were. all kind of going through these. realizations together, too. And so, just. seeing how it applied to different. situations, even like very simple like. one thing my meditation teacher said was. um she would always say is things happen. that we don't like. And like how simple. is that? Obviously things happen that we. don't like. Every day something happens. that we don't like. But for me, I was.

like, oh, every single person here. sitting here has things happen to them. that they don't like. It's part of life. It's not always your fault. Even if it. is your fault, sitting there and going, ah, why am I always causing things to. happen to me that I don't like is not. going to fix the thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. And for me, that was really. I don't know. That was therapeutic in a. in a way as as silly as it seems. No, it's I I don't think it's silly at all. And I remember looking into and I'm sure. you're well aware of this, but the.

frequency illusion. And that idea has has totally given me. so much confidence on how what we're. both talking about is so real and so. true. So, for those who don't know, the. frequency illusion is when you're. thinking about buying a red car and now. every car that you see on the road is. red. And you think, wow, everyone's just. buying red cars. It must be in fashion. It must be in vogue. Like everyone's. buying red. The reality is there are not. more red cars. It's just that now that. you're noticing red cars. So, what you.

notice appears more often. So, when you. notice things happen that I don't like, now all you're noticing is the things. that happen that you don't like. And I. always say to people that when I look at. my life and if you reflected on your. life, you can always tell two stories. based on what you notice. So, I could. either say today I love what I do. I'm. so grateful to do it. I'm really. passionate about it. I wake up and I'm. really excited about it. And I get to. work with great people. Or I could say. the more I've done what I've loved, I've.

attracted more negativity. I've had. people steal money from me. Other people. want to take advantage of me. I've been. exploited and whatever else it is. Now, both of those are true. And I don't want to encourage positive. thinking, which is no only good things. happen to me, because that's not true. Things happen that I don't like. But the. reality is I don't have to notice them. as much. And ultimately, all that's. multiplying is what I'm noticing. And. And that's exactly what you're saying in. this idea that And that's what I think. mindfulness does, especially MBSR, is.

this idea of the ability to notice. Mhm. What am I paying attention to? And is it. helping me? And then all of a sudden you. go, wait a minute. When I focus on the. double arrow, it doesn't help me. It. doesn't serve me. It doesn't get me. anywhere. I just criticize myself and. hurt and hate myself even more. And now. I've dug an even deeper hole that's. really hard to get out of tomorrow to. get any work done. Exactly. And another. common suggestion for reducing. neuroticism is to um have a gratitude. journal. Mhm. And of course, like when I.

started this, I was like, this is. stupid. Why would anyone do. journaling about gratitude? Russians are. not big on kind of positive little. journaling practices like that. And kind. of the more I did it, the more I. realized that it was helping you notice. the positive story. So like, even on a a. dumb day where people on Twitter would. yell at me and my boss was mad at me and. my husband and I got into a fight or. whatever, you know, I could always find. a few things that went relatively well, you know, just even small things or just.

things that I was. happy that I had, you know, that I have. that other people don't have. And you. know, it it really does change your. mindset a little bit. It makes it it. just breaks you out of that cycle of. like everything is bad and my life is. bad. Yeah, and and the reason we have to. do is because we're all so wired. When. have you ever got to a meeting smoothly. and said, yeah, it was really smooth. getting here today. Most of the time, if it was a bad. journey to get to work that day, you. would talk about it with everyone the.

whole day. You keep repeating it. So you. would say it 10 times and you wouldn't. even think about it. Every meeting you'd. go, "Oh my god, I had the worst journey. here to work today. This guy cut me off. There was an accident. You know, you saw. the news." And you just keep telling. that story, whereas you'd never say, "Yeah, it was really smooth today. It. was amazing. I'm just so thankful that. every light was green." And you know, you just don't say that. And so, we have. to practice it. The gratitude journal, I. think, has become such a meme now. because it's like whatever. It It's kind. of been so watered down.

But the point of it is the repetition of. noticing a good story in your day. because you're so wired to notice the. bad stories every day. I wanted to ask. you, what are the gender effects on. personality? Um women tend to be more. conscientious in some ways, more. agreeable, and also much more neurotic. Neuroticism is like. highly associated with being female. And. then men? Men tend to be much less. agreeable, less conscientious in certain.

ways, and then less neuroticism. Men. tend to have more of a. like. this like it's called the dark triad or. basically like kind of an antagonistic. personality trait that women, because of. socialization or whatever, tend not to. display as much. And that's what makes. heterosexual relationships so hard. because there's a there's complete. friction of All of the like my husband. never mops the floor or whatever. That's. personality based. Yeah.

But the thing is it's shared across men. Mhm. As in it's not like it's just my. guy. You occasionally will find someone. you know, obviously these are all. averages, so you'll find someone who's. like below the average or what above, but yeah, it tends to be shared. Yeah. So, that's something that all men need. to work on. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And that's that's the hard part with. that, right? Because romantic. relationships is probably where we see. this the most, where we just say to our. partner, "But that's not who I am. I. don't want to be that." And also because.

you feel the pressure that your partner. wants you to be that way. What do you do when your partner wants. you to be that way, but you don't want. to be that way for them? You know, there. could be another reason to be that way, though. Like, even if it would just make. your relationship a little bit balmier, you know, maybe you understand each. other better, maybe you communicate. better, because you agree to to say. things a certain way. My husband has. this with like various things. He likes. things like. he tends to think that eating the very. last bit of something is rude.

And I think that leaving a big bag with. a tiny bit of something in it is rude. But so now, though, I see when I see a. big bag with a little bit piece of. something, I'm like, "Oh, he's trying to. be kind to me, right?" Like, I'm seeing. it through his eyes of like he's being. empathetic. And when I like gobble down. the last of the cheese and throw the. package away, he tries to see it as like. I'm being efficient and showing him love. by not leaving crap in the fridge. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And that again goes back to. that underlying need, because that's an. underlying expression of the same thing. Yeah. Could you name for us the five. personality traits and then the. personalities that are associated with. those? So, there's five traits that make. up personality. You can remember them. with the acronym OCEAN, which is nice. cuz we're in California. So, it's. openness to experiences, which is This. is the hardest one, so stay with me, but. it's kind of like people who are. open-minded, kind of down for whatever, kind of just you suggest a new.

restaurant to them and they're like, "Okay, yeah, let's check it out." C for. conscientiousness. These are the. go-getters. They wake up early. They run. every day. They know where all their. stuff is. They work uh really diligently. at everything. They pursue their goals. These are type type A individuals. E for. extraversion. We all have some sense of. what this is. It's not just talking a lot. It's also. like how much you like being around. people and how kind of active you are.

You know, are you kind of more the. sit-on-the-couch person or are you out. and about doing stuff with other people. is extraversion, even if you're not. talking. Agreeableness is a and it gets. a bad rap because people think it means. just agreeing with everything. But it's. really how warm and empathetic you are. in your relationships. So, you know, are. you someone who is filled with a lot of. antagonism? Do you start a lot of. conflict with the people in your life? Or are you someone who is able to take. the perspective of others, puts others.

needs before your own? So, people high. in agreeableness tend to have like a. really deep and meaningful friendships. and relationships. But it could lead to. people pleasing on the negative end. It. can. And I've heard from people who are. like, I want to be less agreeable. because I want to be less of a. people-pleaser. And there are ways to. set boundaries in relationships that can. still be agreeable and that don't lead. to people pleasing. And then N is neuroticism. Um it's kind. of It's basically the two components of.

it are depression and anxiety. So, and. it's it's kind of all about how negative. your inner weather is. Like, how gloomy. is it in there? You know, is it all. like, you know, I had the worst commute. into work today because a guy cut me off. and blah blah blah. You know, or are you. able to kind of take a minute in there. and smile at something, laugh with. someone, even just appreciate it being a. normal day. That would be someone who's. more emotionally stable, which is the. opposite of neuroticism. Got it. And. introversion fits into extraversion.

because they're a scale. Yes, yeah. >> closed. >> Yes. Exactly. So, they're all. Conscientiousness. >> Yeah. Um being unconscious. Yes. Uh so, they're all a spectrum. So, no one is. 100% one or the other. People are like, I'm a total introvert. It's you're. probably like 23% of the way to. Yeah. Um and. >> And are we all mixed? Are we all of. them, right? We have We have We have a. score on the spectrum of each and every. one of them. We all have each of these. traits inside of us to varying degrees.

Generally, you want to be pretty high on. all of them other than neuroticism. You. want to be low on that one. But pretty. high doesn't mean all the way high or. extreme or in every situation or every. day. It just means that like if called. upon to give a wedding toast, you're. capable of doing that. You know, you're. not going to melt down. Yeah. That would. be like an appropriate amount of. extraversion. >> Got it. Got it. Yeah, that's so. interesting you say that because I was. looking at a study that was saying that. if we're asked to give a toast as the.

maid of honor at our friend's wedding, we literally feel like we're being. chased by a tiger, right? Like that's. the response in the brain because we're. so scared of how it could go. Yeah. You're saying ideally you don't feel. that way and that's a healthy level to. be. Yeah, so it's and then that doesn't. mean that you would give a toast every. day. You know, it doesn't mean that like. what you would prefer most in the world. is to give a toast. You might still need. a lot of quiet time to yourself, but. it's someone who can kind of rise to. those occasions. So, I have a friend who. always says to me, "Jay, I'm not as.

ambitious as you. I'm a lot more content and I'm. stable." is the words he uses. But then. when we get into it, he'll be honest and. say, "I think I'm lazy. I'm not organized and. I disguise my lack of ambition. as contentment, but really I'm not. happy. Like I'm I'm anxious. I'm. stressed. I'm not in a good place. Is that changeable? Yeah, so for my book. I interviewed several people exactly. like that. So, they kind of thought they.

were just kind of oh, whatever happens. happens kind of like you know, I'm I'm. content. I'm not very ambitious. But. then one of the women, Julia, she really. wanted to start her own business. She. wanted to have her own copywriting. business. But, she worked as like a. assistant at a hair salon, which was not. really what she wanted to be doing. It. was It was a little bit menial and like. just kind of she felt like she had. skills beyond that. And she really just. struggled to get motivated or like. figure out how she was going to start. this business. She kind of just like.

flipped overnight. Like she again, kind. of like my thing with the MBSR class, she read that like. you can accomplish your goals by just. working at them for 20 minutes a day. just in some self-help book. This is not. the secret to conscientiousness, but for. her this was like, "Oh, like I could. just do a little bit every day toward my. goals. Like I don't have to suddenly. wake up and be a different person." And. she did. She got super organized. She's. like one of the most organized people. I've ever talked to. She has like all. these to-do lists, she has a calendar,

she has. Jira tracking of her client, you know, she's like very together. And this was. someone who quit her job to start a. business and then watched Game of. Thrones for, you know, months because. she didn't have that skill initially. So, yeah, it's completely possible. So, how do we do it? So, what I found seems. to work for people is that you have to. have This is now like a cliche at this. point, but you really have to have a. why. One of the other people that I talked to. in that chapter, he came from this like. very poor rural part of Virginia.

And he had never like studied really. He. just wasn't into school and he had never. written a paper before. And he didn't. realize that you can study for tests and. in that way you can improve your score. Um, so he gets to college somehow like. the, you know, whatever low college he. gets into. And everyone thinks he's. going to fail out because he's just not. school is not his thing. And then he. takes one psychology class. And he's. like, "Oh, this is so interesting. I'm. learning about why people do what they.

do, the science of the mind. This is. applicable to me. This is This is. fascinating." And he decides he wants to. become an academic psychologist, like a. a researcher in psychology, which is so. far beyond where he is at that moment. And he does. He honestly just completely. turns his life around. He gets. organized. He gets like a filing cabinet. with all of his homework and all that. stuff. He finds a study buddy, which. having a partner in whatever like. journey you're on is always going to be. more effective. They stay up all night.

reading and studying together and. writing essays together and like. puzzling through like, "What does this. mean? What does that mean?" He finds a. mentor in psychology who kind of keeps. him going and and gives him hope. He. makes flashcards for every test. He sets. like timelines for when he's going to. start studying for each psychology quiz. And he is he is a he is now a tenured. professor in psychology. Uh he got into UGA, which is a great. grad school for psychology. And this is. someone who I think made D's in high.

school. And it's really about having. that thing that he's like, "This is what. I want to be doing. This is absolutely. how I see it playing out." And nothing. else in his life up until that point had. ignited him in that same way. What are. the strongest types of whys? I would say. it's something that is going to kind of. fuel you for the rest of your life. So, people often it's like their kids. People will do anything for their kids. because. they just kind of consume you and you're. you have like an infinite amount of. energy to pour into them.

Uh for me it was really I really wanted. to do journalism and that was a big part. of what made me more conscientious. because I had a series of really boring. jobs before I became a journalist and I. was like, "I can't spend my whole life. being this bored. Like I cannot. go in day in day out and not look. forward to anything or learning anything. or any kind of interesting conversation. just to you know, I was I was a. secretary at a mail order mailbox. company.

And I was like, "This is this is so. tedious. This is so boring. I hate. mailboxes. I don't care. And I was like, I can't do this for the rest of my life. No shade to the people who work there. So, that is something It's like you you. can be kind of running away from. something. Um you can be running towards. something. It's something that's going. to just kind of fuel you forever. Not. not for the next, you know, week. Yeah. Okay, so you need a why. What else? As I. mentioned previously, having someone. who's kind of on the journey with you. can be for some reason really. empowering. It's called the mutually.

reinforcing effect. And it essentially. means that you kind of are are learning. from someone, right? You're getting. strategies from them. So, he was getting. these like study skills from this other. person. But he was also kind of learning. alongside him. Like they were kind of it. kind of creates this positive sense of. peer pressure where you're like, let's. do it together. Let's like run this race. together. It makes you feel like less. alone, especially when things get really. hard. Like I think it it was for him at. times. Okay. And then what else? There's.

final concept called episodic future. thinking. So, a lot of times we have. trouble being conscientious because we. can't see how it will all kind of look. in the end. So, I am not talking about. the secret here, but it's kind of about. visualizing with very specific details. either the outcome that you're trying to. generate or the outcome that you're. trying to avoid. So, for Julia, the. woman who had the business, it was, you. know, I'm working for myself. I set my. own schedule. I have all these clients.

You know, I never have to see this hair. salon again. And it was it was a very. clear to her like how she was going to. set up her home office, how she was. going to run her day, how she was going. to do this. So, she had all the like. kind of visualized pieces of it, and. that would kind of keep her motivated. when it inevitably got hard. For some people it can be something. negative. And as long as you're not so. bogged down in the negativity, that can. be motivating. So, the the guy who. became a psychologist, his big fear was. becoming an assistant manager at.

Wendy's. Because that was like the only job that. was available in his hometown. And so, he was like, "If I have to go back to my. hometown and be a assistant manager at. Wendy's, like I can't I can't do that. I. can't handle that. I have to do well at. school because I I can't have this like. Wendy's future happen to me." So, that. that kind of thing can be really. motivating. And that's um you know, connecting things to a bigger vision. like that. A lot of the stuff that you're going to. be doing for conscientiousness is going. to be kind of tedious. Like, you know, scheduling guests for your podcast, I.

bet, is like not the most fun. process. Like, sending these emails and. like finding a time. But, it's like. necessary for the larger vision. So, if. you keep your focus on that larger. vision, it will motivate you through. those like difficult times. Yeah, I. think that's such a big important part. because. I often think when people think of their. purpose or their calling or a better. life, it's without any. difficult tedious tasks. >> Yes. And that's just not reality. I talk.

to friends all the time and I keep. reminding them that. you're always doing things you don't. want to do to do more of the things you. want to do, and that's how life works. There's very few people on planet Earth, if any, that only wake up and do. everything they want to do. And anyone. who says that is probably just. paraphrasing for. "Well, it all is things I love because. it's feeding and serving a bigger. vision." And I also like what you were. saying because I think for me it was.

like that when I was in a stable. consulting job before I do what I do. now, the only thing that got me out of there. was I didn't want to be. like the people who were 20 years senior. to me. in those roles. Again, no offense to. anyone who works there. They're happy. there. That's great. I just couldn't see. myself being someone there when I was 45. or 50 or whatever it was. And at the. same time, I couldn't imagine getting to. the end of my life. and thinking I didn't try.

And that visual for me was really, really powerful and even probably the. one I use most today. where I'm like at the end of my life, if. I'm lying there and I'm hopefully. conscious enough to reflect, I'm never, ever, ever going to be sad that I tried. something and people thought I was bad. at it or there was terrible criticism or. people laughed at me because at that. point none of that will matter because. I'll be forgotten in a matter of. moments. And the most important thing will be.

what I'll remember about my life, which. is I tried, I gave it a shot, I. explored, I experimented and I'll be. proud of myself for doing that. And and. I think that visual is such a powerful. way of, whether it's like you said, 5. years, 10 years, 20 years or whether. it's all the way to the end, it's such a powerful motivator that. really puts things into context that you. can't right now. Exactly, yeah. And I. mean, even, you know, people who are. professionals at being gritty struggle. with this. As one example, at one of the.

people I interviewed was Angela. Duckworth, who literally wrote Grit. So, the book about how to stick with your. goals. She has trouble sticking with her. goals. So, she doesn't like making the. PowerPoint slides for her classes, as. she told me. Like, so she. This is a tedious thing for her. It's. not fun. It's like fixing the font and. like making it readable and all that. stuff. But, she doesn't enjoy it, but. she does it because it's so important to. her to teach people about psychology and. to be, uh, you know, a good professor. and to connect with her students that. she's like powers through these like.

PowerPoint sessions. So, I think that. was like a really good example because. I'm like, if anyone knows how to be. gritty, it's it's her, you know, but. even she struggles with it. Yeah, if. someone wants to be more extroverted, what do they do every day? What do they. need to change? >> All you have to do is talk to people. And it can take. >> When you don't want to. >> Yes, it can take whatever form you want, but my recommendation for people who are. introverts, who are kind of just. starting out, maybe you just moved. somewhere new and you want to meet new. people, sign up for an activity that.

happens regularly that you don't have to. organize. Because I think where people. get stuck is in the endless like text. chain of doom of like, "How about. Tuesday? How about Wednesday? How about. drinks? How about here? How about. there?" Like it's really hard to make. things happen in our society because. everyone's so overscheduled, everyone's. busy, everyone kind of has this. inclination toward introversion. So just. sign up for something like pickleball or. like whatever your thing is, whatever. you can tolerate that's like a group. activity that's going to happen with or.

without you. Because that's to me like. seeing the same people regularly over. time is how you build connections and. how you build friendships and not. through like just being really good at. scheduling. Yeah, it's almost I I remember for me it. was I was around 15 years old. I was. doing work experience at this company. that my. I'd been connected to and my job was to. cold call 300 companies and try and sell.

event space for an exhibition. And I had never cold called in my life. at 15 years old. I didn't even know what. that meant. And I remember getting a quick coaching. session with someone who was really warm. and actually really nice. His name was. Joel and just such a. kind guy at the time. Like he was in his. 30s probably, but showing me the ropes. And I remember just calling 300 and he. told me, "Hey, most of them won't. respond. Most of them will say no." And. I probably only sold three out of 300.

exhibition spots, but I felt so confident to be rejected. and cold called from that point because. I'd picked up the phone and talked to. 300 people, and I didn't feel like a. failure, which is a really bizarre, counterintuitive feeling because I. failed 297 times, but the three. exhibition slots I sold were just such. big wins. And he was just like, "Yeah, those are the odds. Like, that's just. how it works." And I feel like that was. the moment I built a sense of confidence.

around being exposed to rejection. So, it's almost like what you're saying is. that exposure therapy of, "Hey, if. you're not good at talking to people and. you're bad at organizing yourself, pick something that's organized and just. talk to one person, and then next week. talk to two people there, and then next. week talk to three people." And that. exposure therapy, slowly, slowly, slowly, by the end of the 8 weeks, you're like, "Oh, wow, I I'm comfortable. talking to people at pickleball now.". Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it's, you know, not every conversation is going to go. perfectly. Like, not every person you.

meet is I had some really awkward. conversations that I describe in the. book, like with these new people I was. talking to. >> some of them. So, I was doing a lot of. Meetup, where you go on like group. outings with people. Usually, it's like. hiking or something like that. So, it's. a bunch of strangers who who hike. together. Again, if you go regularly, hopefully you get to know some of them. And I was doing a lot of like Bumble. Bumble BFF. Yeah, Bumble BFF. And the. Bumble BFF actually worked for me. I did. meet a friend on Bumble BFF, and we're. still friends. But one of them was like,

oh, she was trying to tell me that. women peak in high school, that she was. not looking for a partner and was not. ever interested in dating again because. we were in our 30s and women peak. physically in high school. And I was. like, I really don't think women peak in high. school. That's really depressing. >> time, yeah. And I was just like, how do I navigate. out of this like very like specific. thing that you said that I really don't. agree with and that.

makes me sad that you think that. But. so, yeah, you're going to meet people. who you're like, "Wow, I don't agree. with you at all about that." You know, or just people who have like political. opinions that are different from yours. or whatever it might be, but you know, then you'll meet someone like my Bumble. BFF Alex. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think. what's hard about it. is that humans feel the more certain we. are about who we are, the safer we are. Mhm. And so, when you start becoming. uncertain about who you are. and open to the idea that you could be.

more, it's a scary place to live because it's. uncomfortable. But, you don't like the. idea that you met someone at 30, they're. really outgoing, and now you're like, "No, no, no, I'm a homebody. That's. That's who I am. Like, stop trying to. change me.". And yeah, sure, I agree with you. Don't. change for that person. But, have you ever asked yourself. whether you want to be more than a. homebody? Have you explored? Have you. experienced it even know whether that's. what you want? And I think we're scared. to do that because we feel sure that,

"No, no, no, I'm a homebody and that's. my identity and that's what my friends. know me for." And all my friends will be. like, "Yeah, you're a homebody." And it. evokes a sense of identity and a purpose. to some degree, even though it isn't a. purpose. But, it makes me feel like. people know who I am and I know who I. am. So, as soon as I start changing, my. wife went through this. So, my wife was. someone who was considered by her. friends, family, and people around her. that she was unorganized. She was. spontaneous. Although, she's the best. time. So, my wife is the best energy.

She is magnetic. Everyone loves her, adores her. She doesn't She didn't used. to make plans. She didn't have a plan, and it was really hard to get a hold of. her. And that's That's the reputation. she'd build up. And then when she started to change. that, so when she started to say, "Hey, sorry, I can't actually make that. I'm. I've got work right now." or. "Do you know what? That day I've got an. event. I can't make it." Before, she was. always available, always open because. she didn't have a schedule. People started to make her feel bad. about that. Being like, "Oh, you've. changed." "Oh, but you always used to be.

up for this before. Oh, I realize you're. busy too busy for me now. And it was. really interesting to watch her go. through that because she was doing it. for all the right reasons because she. wanted to be someone who was organized, disciplined. She was always disciplined. in her workouts, but not as much in in. her work. And that shifted for her. Now. she's extremely productive and effective. and all the rest of it and very happy. about it. But that change, she had a lot. of friends who didn't react well to. that. And I think that's what people are. scared of. Does that make sense?

>> I I completely identify with that on so. many levels. So first I think anyone. who's ever given up drinking has had. this exact thing play out. where everyone in your life suddenly. says like, "Come on. Like you're a party. mate. Like what what's going on with. you? Like you're not going to be fun. anymore." And then you have to like. create this new identity of someone who. still has friends but doesn't drink. The. thing that was really resonant about. that for me was that So for a long time. I identified as someone who would almost. certainly be a bad mom. I was like, "I.

am the kind of person who if I ever have. a kid, I would mess up my kid cuz I. would be such a bad mom. I'm not fit to. have kids." I just had this story about. myself that like I can't do it. Even. though I kind of wanted to do it, but I. was like, "No, no, no. Like it's not for. me. I'm I'm not a kid person, right?". And people kind of reinforced this in my. life. So I remember when I got pregnant, my mom told me, "I can't imagine you as. a mother.". And I think for me there was like some. comfort in that because like having a. child is scary. It's I I'm not saying.

that everyone should or anything like. that. But it is it is is a big leap. It's like it feels like a big It is a. huge change in your life and it's a big. decision to make. It really like that. fear I was kind of explaining it away by. like I don't need to make this decision. because I won't be a good mom anyway. That totally has not played out. Like. I'm I'm a great mom. Like I I love my. son and I adore him. The stuff that I. thought I wouldn't like about it is the. stuff I like the most. The stuff that I. thought I would be best at is like I. actually don't find that enjoyable. I I. always ask myself like why did I tell.

myself for so long that I was certain to. be a certain way or that I'm just like. doomed to be a bad mom. I think we get. that way about so many things in our. lives and and it's counterproductive. Yeah, and then it's hard because at one. point it's it's hard because there's a. sense of honesty and self-awareness at a. point in time. It's when that story becomes finite and. fatalistic that it becomes dangerous. Mhm. Right, there have been points in my. life where.

me saying I'm just not the type of. entrepreneur that goes on vacation right. now has served me. But if I'm the entrepreneur forever that. never goes on vacation, that is going to. hurt me. And so I think it's that nuanced balance. between how is this self-awareness. but not a self-defeating story. That's a. really hard balance for people to toggle. almost because it requires so much. awareness, honesty, not falling into the extremes. It just.

requires I don't even know what the. right word is, maybe it's maturity. It requires such a maturity to be able. to hold an idea and not make it your. identity if that makes sense. >> Oh, yeah. And the thing you have to keep. in mind is that people and situations. will bring things out in you that you. didn't think were there. Like very few. people before they've ever had a baby. like are naturally baby people, you. know? >> Yeah, makes sense. >> And first of all, they're only a baby. for a year so you don't even really have. to worry about it that much but um you.

know, I kind of surprised myself that. like you know, we bring this little. bundle home, a couple months go by, they. start kind of being more interactive and. smiley and stuff and you do, you start. singing Baby Beluga and you know, cooing. at them and cuddling, you know, you. start doing all this stuff because as. you take on social roles or as you kind. of pursue goals that are important to. you, you kind of find things within. yourself that you didn't think were. there before. Like, we kind of have. these like latent traits that that come. out when the moment is right. So, even.

if like you don't think of yourself as a. a certain kind of person, you might. surprise yourself when that situation. comes up. Yeah, that's what I'm trying. to figure out. It's like it's almost not. like because you can't live this. kind of willy-nilly approach to life of. just, "Oh, it doesn't matter. I'll. figure it out when I get there.". Because that could be dangerous. And. then at the same time, you can't be the. over planner and the over whelmed person. who's trying to get every meticulous. detail right of it because certain. skills are only going to come up in the. moment. What is that balance called? Is.

there even a word for it? >> I think this is called um social. investment theory. But, it's essentially. this idea that over time situations do. change us. Like, as there you know, there have been studies that found that. as people, you know, you get a job that. they're really interested in and become. really committed to, they become more. conscientious. Naturally, of course, they're like learning the skill in order. to do it for their job. After people. fall in love, they've done studies that. found that they become more extroverted. and more agreeable because your partner.

is bringing out those qualities in you. Like, they're kind of like highlighting. these good parts of you and and saying. like, "Look, look, you you have this in. you." And I think that's really cool. Like, I think it's it's good to know. that as you you take on these roles, eventually over time, you know, it's. going to be gradual, you'll kind of. shapeshift to meet the moment. And you. know, you have to want it. You know, there's a lot of like parents out there. who could probably stand to put more of. a concerted effort into it, but I do. think it's it's hopeful that situations.

will bring out qualities in us. How does. this work apply to people in. relationships where they want their. partner to change? And you'll hear. someone go, "I just see their potential. I knew I know who they could be. They. could They could really get it together, but they don't see it in themselves.". Yeah. >> thinking that way, how would you. encourage them to think about change? I. really wish I had written a chapter of. this book called how to change your. partner because every single interviewer. has asked me that question and I don't. really have a good answer because we. haven't really studied how to change.

other people. Like this is like the. brick wall that all of society like. bangs their head against, which is that. we all wish our partners were a certain. way and that our partners are never. going to be that way completely. So, first of all, like any profound and. serious change over time has to come. from within, right? Like if if you. really want to make someone like less. anxious, saying like just calm down, stop worrying, you know, it doesn't. work. They have to want to be less. anxious. For some of the skills though, or for. some of the traits, it can be something.

where like maybe you introduce your. partner to some of the tools that will. help them be more conscientious. Maybe. like you start an exercise program. together, for example. Maybe you start, hey, let's like both set a time every. week where we're going to sync up our. calendars and figure out who needs to be. where when. You can do these like little. tools and strategies to kind of move. them closer, especially to. conscientiousness. This has been found. to work well, where like you can kind of. do it in the background and it just kind.

of works. They don't have to really want. it. It's hard because in order to keep. that going, in order to go on a run, you. know, without you, they have to want to. to do it. People want different things. in life. That's that's like part of what. motivates personality change and what. motivates everything else. You could. try, you know, asking them if they're. they seem to be living in accordance. with their values. It's like, hey, you. said that you really wanted to exercise. this year and we haven't done anything. in weeks. Do you feel like we're. exercising enough? Like you could you. could do some motivational interviewing,

but ultimately, you know, people have to. find it in themselves to to do the the. things that are good for them. Yeah, people don't change for people. >> No. They change for themselves. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> change when they want to. They change. how they want to. And they change at. their pace and their time. And this idea. that you have the power to change anyone. if you just stop for a moment and. thought about how hard it's been to. change yourself. Right. >> You'd immediately realize that you have. zero power over anyone else. And the.

reason why you're being asked about. everyone is because I think it's the. biggest myth because we think that if we. can see someone's potential, we can. change them. We think that if we can see. someone's amazing future, we can change. them. And we think if we can see what. someone could be and achieve that we're. somehow holier than them for seeing. that. And we think of it as well-intentioned. But actually it's not because. well-intentioned means I let you become. who you want to become and I accept that.

that's who you are. And sometimes it's painful because you. can truly see what someone's capable of. And that can be well-intentioned. But until they really believe they want. that for themselves, it really doesn't. matter. And And that's That is one of. the most painful things to watch is. someone lose out on their potential. Yeah. I mean, and you can talk to any, you know, relative of an addict or. anyone who, you know, sees a clear path. for someone and they won't take it. Um. it's it's very hard to make other people. do things that you think are good. How.

does someone who's. more pessimistic and negative and is. listening to us right now and thinking, "Olga, I want to become more of an. optimistic or realistic person. Where do I start? How does that. personality change look?" Well, you've. come to the right place because I am. very negative and pessimistic. I would. say I still am even despite, you know, this this huge project that I did where. I. really really tried to change myself. So, something that I came across that. was really helpful for this is uh the.

work of Tracy Dennis-Tiwary, who's a a. psychologist who studies anxiety. And a. big thing kind of an idea that I had. about my anxiety was that I need anxiety. to kind of help me avoid bad stuff. Like. I need like I will I will. screw up and like not get where I need. to be or like you know, mess things up. if unless I stay really anxious and. vigilant. And eventually what that would. do is is turn into just constantly. worrying and constantly being in a. negative space where I was I was never.

really enjoying anything cuz I was. worrying about the next thing. So. anxiety you can worry. You can think. about the things that could go wrong, right? Like if you're putting in an. offer on a house or trying to get a new. job or whatever you're you're doing, you. can think about like oh how how could. this interview go wrong, right? But also. think about how it could go right. Really most things in life some things. go wrong and some things go right. Like. you know, what we were saying earlier. And you can actually make a list of your. worries of like things that could go. wrong with this. But then make another column of like.

things that could go right with this and. how will I try to move like more of. these into this other column because it. is it's unrealistic to only worry and to. only think about the negative because. some amount of things will will go well. or even if some of those bad things. happen, there might be good in them or. things that are you know, maybe not so. bad as as you feared. Um so I would just. I call it reverse worrying and it's just. it's not just like positive thinking I'm. sure everything will be fine. It's some.

things will be fine. Yeah, and I like the idea of consciously. having to think about those. Again, it's. just re-wiring those thoughts that are. so habituated. to constantly pull you in that negative. cycle. And and you're right, it isn't. this false toxic positivity because that. isn't helpful or healthy at all. And it does take a lot of practice and. repetition because. yeah, you're likely to wake up in the. morning and the first thought you have. is oh I'm so tired. Just don't want to. get out of bed and so your first thought.

of the day is a negative pessimistic one. Mhm. as opposed to an optimistic, thoughtful one of. all right, I'm glad I got 6 hours last. night, you know, or okay, well, yeah, I. didn't get enough sleep last night. Let. me get to bed early tonight. Whatever. that may be could could make the shift. What about someone who's feeling like. they're a people pleaser and they want. to set boundaries, but they struggle. with it because they're scared of being. seen as selfish or assertive.

How did they start making that shift? I've really uh had to apply this with. parenting. But you can kind of uh. in a in in a way, you can kind of parent. people around you. Not literally, but. you can kind of like use some of the. tools from parenting with other people, which is make people feel heard. Like if. someone's upset with you about. something, to give you an example, I had. a friend who texted me to say that she. wanted me to check in with her via text. message at least once a week.

and that we were not going to be friends. unless I. text check in with her once a week. >> And I don't like texting. I just it's. it's a it's a very like a scheduling. platform for me, not a like emotional. one, and I I just don't like it. And so. at the time, I sort of was like because. it was before this project, I was like, oh, of course, I'll do whatever you. want. I'll people please, right? I'll. I'll text you every week. And of course, I did it twice and then forgot because I. don't actually like doing it. So what I. learned from Miriam Kirmayer, who's like.

a friendship expert, is you can say. like, hey, I hear you. You feel like I'm. not checking in with you enough. You. feel like we're not connected. I totally. get that. The thing is, I really don't like. texting people in order to have. conversations. It interrupts my. workflow. Is there another way that we. can do this that will meet your. underlying need of being seen in this. friendship and being checked in on and. have going through this hard thing you. know, with me checking on you, but not. require me to use this platform that I. really don't like to do this thing that.

I really feel like it's not well. equipped for. You know, maybe we could. schedule a weekly phone call. Maybe we. could go for a walk. Maybe we could do, you know, this other list of activities. There's almost always a solution like. that where you're meeting the underlying. need, but you're not doing it in this. way that is like not workable for you. I. love that because it is an underlying. need. That person doesn't really want a. text every week. >> No. That's that's them trying to find. the bare minimum way to keep you in. their life. That's really what they're. doing is what's the least I can ask for.

to try and keep this person alive in my. life. But what I actually want is a. really meaningful conversation once a. month on the phone or in person where we. go out for dinner or have tea or. whatever it may be. And that's what I'm. really looking for. And I think the more. relationships go to solving the. underlying need, the less bitter we'll. feel around, "Hey, but I text you every. week and you still don't feel close to. me.". >> Mhm. I remember one of my friends said. to me, she said, "I just don't spend any.

time with my partner.". And I said, "Well, he just told me you. guys went away last weekend." And she. said, "Yeah, but he was reading. a book or the news or whatever it was, and I was trying to entertain the kids, and we didn't spend any time together.". And I was like, "Well, the underlying. need is. alone time, presence, connection. It's. not time. You did time together. You. were both in the same place at the same. time, but the underlying need is wanting.

connection in a in a safe space. And. probably And And you know, it's asking. that person, "What is that underlying. need?" And all of a sudden you start to. realize it's eye contact. It's uh it's. vulnerability. It's being able to share. something that I've been struggling. with. And. And And I find that no one ever. communicates that. We always communicate. as like, "Oh, can we just see each other. once a week?" Yeah. >> And that's not really you know, what. you're looking for. Yeah, and this also. works I found with like political. disagreements. So when someone just. comes at you with I have people in my.

life who I really disagree with. politically on on very important issues. When someone comes at you and just. starts ranting at you about their. worldview that you don't agree with, often it's because they are kind of. making a bid for connection. Like. they're like, "Hey, this thing is so. important to me. Like is it important to. you, too?" Like they're kind of trying. to get you into their world. Um and once. you see that, it becomes less about like. this person is my political enemy and. more about this person wants to. establish a friendship. Let's find. something else to like base it on. because we don't agree on this, but you.

know, it can become almost like a like a. friendly thing as opposed to this, you. know, political fight. That's a really. beautiful nuanced point of if you notice. people's. conversations as a expression of them. inviting you into their world, which is. often what it is. You start realizing it's actually not. that much of a It doesn't have some deep. agenda or something. It's just them. saying this is what I think about. It's. It's really tough because we're all so. busy and moving so fast that when you.

see something you don't like or doesn't. And I think that's where we've got to in. society today is if I see a message or. someone posts something on their stories. that I don't like, I start labeling them. as someone that I don't want to interact. with rather than seeing that person as. just a human who's expressing their. thoughts, beliefs, and things they're. interested in. Exactly. And we just. don't have the time and capacity for. that. I was going to ask, can. an introvert actually become an. extrovert if they want to? So I think. they can, but I would recommend against.

thinking of yourself as a pure introvert. or extrovert. It's really uncommon to be. all the way to one end or the other of. introversion and extroversion. Let's say. you you are quite introverted though. Like like you would basically consider. yourself almost all the way introverted. I think it is possible to become. extroverted, but it's it's going to take. a lot of. work. It's going to take a lot of. effort. I think I kind of realized that. I was more extroverted than I maybe was. thinking at the beginning of this.

project. Like I kind of found that I. when I didn't go to improv, I would. really miss it. Or when I didn't go to. my little silly meetups, I was kind of. like the weekend felt a little empty. So, I I would kind of avoid categorizing. yourself. And I would I would just see. what it feels like to have more social. interaction than you're used to. But. let's say it it doesn't feel amazing. Like let's say you're like it's. is actually quite exhausting and you're. like I do need that quiet time alone to. recharge. There's this concept called. free traits that some psychologists. have, which is that like rather than.

permanently changing to where it's like. I'm a I'm a total extrovert in every. situation. I want to talk to people. You. kind of learn the ability to kind of try. on this personality trait. It's almost. like an invisibility cloak or something. where you can kind of like put on. extraversion and then do whatever it is. you need to do with that extraversion. Um so a lot of times college professors. will do this cuz they have to give these. like interesting lectures, you know? But. they're the way they got to where they. are is cuz they're good at like reading. papers for you know, 12 hours at a time.

So, they're usually they are pretty. introverted and Brian Little um he kind. of does say that he puts on. extraversion. Like he puts on the free. trait of extraversion, goes out and. gives his lecture, and then he has to. like go hide by himself. He can't, you. know, stay in that room and glad-hand. He has to go retreat and kind of restore. to his introversion. So, that's another. way to think about about it. I think. that's still personality change cuz it's. still allowing you to meet your goals. that you have. And it's not permanent, but uh you know, to anyone who talks to.

him, he would be an extrovert. >> And and it's just reconciling that. with again, I I just see this. challenge that we have with that today, which I don't think is it's valid, but. it's not justified. This idea of oh, but. that's inauthentic. Like you're just. you're just using you're you're just. manipulating something or you're. adopting a skill. And it's like, well, no, we all have to have skills at work. that we don't use at home. Yeah. Right? You're not that person at work, and you. wouldn't try and organize your family in. the way you project manage at work. And.

it's not inauthentic to turn that off at. home. It's it's normal to do that. And. so, yes, if you need to develop. communication skills to get promoted, that's a healthy investment because. that's an important part of your life if. it is. And those skills will probably come in. handy at home and in your personal life, too. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. So, how do. It's almost like how do we start looking. at life as. the accumulation of skills and abilities. and traits and habits. as opposed to shifting our entire. identity because of that. Mhm. Just in.

the same way as if you wore color today, you're now not someone who just wears. color. >> Exactly. It's you know, but it's it's. weird how the mind kind of plays that. trick in saying, oh, I'm just people. pleasing or I'm just shape shifting, which I think has become such a worry. today. Yeah, or masking. People Yeah, I've heard about like people saying I'm. I'm masking if I'm like doing anything. functional. Like, no, I mean, we are all masking to. some extent. Like, I have to go on the. radio sometimes, and that's definitely.

you know, I mean, I I don't talk all the. time like I talk on NPR. Like, you know, we we all have different ways. of presenting ourselves depending on the. situation. Yeah, definitely. I wanted to. ask you a last few sections of question. How does this apply to people who are. diagnosed with depression or ADHD? Can. they also change that through this work. or is that very different? There's. actually been this push in psychology to. identify the personality traits that are. associated with things like depression. and ADHD.

So, my depression score went way down. with changing neuroticism. Neuroticism. and depression. and anxiety are very closely linked. A. lot of these things that we think of as. sort of mental illnesses or mental. health conditions actually have a. personality trait component to them. And. MBSR, the class that I took, actually. has gone head-to-head with Lexapro, the. antidepressant, and it works just as. well. So, in some ways changing Yeah. Mhm. So, in some ways changing your. personality traits can address some of.

these, whatever you want to call them, mental health conditions that you might. not be thrilled with to have in your. life. So, if it is depression, you know, something like meditation or therapy can. really go a great deal to to addressing. that. If it's something like ADHD, some. people think that's just like a form of. low conscientiousness. So, if you think. about it, it's just uh not having the. systems in place to remember where your. stuff is and where you need to be and. what's on your calendar. So, a lot of. the the therapists who work with adults. with ADHD basically just uh.

give them the tools that that they use. for conscientiousness. So, it's like, "Here's a Google Calendar. Like, fill it. out with every single thing you need to. do this week. Here's, you know, Todoist." It's an app that I use. "Here's a clock that you can set 15. minutes ahead of time." It's coming up. with the tools that people use to change. personality traits, too. And there's. actually a new effort to treat a. borderline personality disorder, which. is a mental condition. Um it also has a. personality component, obviously, by. changing personality traits. It's using.

some of the strategies in a book and and. through therapy to actually shift. people's levels of agreeableness and and. so forth and and actually help cure BPD. Yeah, I think we're just living at that. time right now where. it feels like work to go to MBSR or to. therapy and you don't actually end up. having any skills. Yeah. >> Right? Like, with the pill, like, you. don't you don't change your reality. You're numbing something or you're. better at dealing with it or. there's a a sense of this doesn't worry.

me anymore. But there's not really an expansion of. ability and skill. And and my I mean, I'm mindful of the fact that people are. on very, very different levels and may. need it, but it's quite fascinating to. hear that MBSR has that ability and. similar scores. Yeah, and and what you. have to keep in mind is that and I'm pro. antidepressants, whatever works for. people, but you know, they can reach a. point where they don't work very well. anymore. But the skills that you learn. through something like meditation, mindfulness, even like a you know, a.

cognitive behavioral therapy, they'll be. with you through life even when you. don't have your Xanax and your whatever. So, I it's something I recommend maybe. doing even in tandem with whatever. antidepressant. We end every episode of. On Purpose with a final five. So, these. questions have to be answered in one. word to one sentence maximum. Okay. So, Olga Sound, these are your final five. Question number one is what is the best. advice you've ever had or received? And. you can apply all to personality in your. world. So, what is the best advice.

you've ever had or received? Go work at. a place that will let you do exactly. what you want to be doing, even if it's. a very small establishment. Uh question. number two, what is the worst advice. you've ever had or received? That if. something is difficult, it's not worth. doing. Question number three, what's. something that. you used to think was true about. personality that now you've changed your. mind on it? I used to think that your. birth order was the most important uh. thing that determined your personality. >> Interesting. And it is actually not at.

all important. Let's talk about that. because people feel like, "Oh, if I'm. the first child or the third child or. the middle child.". >> Eldest daughter, yeah. >> Yeah, none of that none of that stuff's. real. No. Wow. There are some gender effects so. that you could be picking up on like. being a daughter versus a son, but uh. there the birth order it's very. negligible. It's it's extremely small. Uh question number four, what is the biggest change that you've. seen in yourself going on this journey. that you're most grateful for now. looking back. Oh, it's that I think I.

need to connect with other people in. order to be happy. And you didn't used. to believe that. >> No, I used to think that I could just be. a little astronaut in space and never. talk to anyone and be totally fine. I. think I especially as a new mom, I. joined a bunch of new moms groups and I. I really need those. You can't do it. alone. I love that. Uh fifth and final. question we ask this to every guest. who's ever been on the show. If you. could create one law that everyone in. the world had to follow, what would it. be? No flaking on plans at the last. minute. What's with that?

I love it when someone cancels on me. It's like such a Oh, you you have the. joy of missing out. Yeah. >> I never cancel last minute because I'm. not that guy, but I love someone. canceling on me last minute. No, and so. and it's always like, you know, I just. can't today. It's like, yes, you can. You do it every other day. Like, come. on. I love it. There has to be some. punishment for that then if if you break. that law. I I No hanging out with that. person for a whole week. I don't know. I. don't know. I love it. Everyone, the book is called. Me, But Better: The Science and Promise.

of Personality Change by Olga Khazan. I. hope you've enjoyed this conversation. Make sure you share your favorite. reflections, the experiments you're. trying, the takeaways from the book as. you're reading it. Please post them and. tag both of us on Instagram, on TikTok. I love seeing all your stories and reels. to see what resonates with you. Olga, thank you so much for coming on the show. again. It's been wonderful to meet you. and uh thank you so much for helping us. teach us how to be ourselves, but. better. So, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. If you loved this. episode, you'll love my conversation.

with Dr. Joe Dispenza on why stress and. overthinking negatively impacts your. brain and heart and how to change your. habits that are on autopilot. Listen to. it right now. How many times do we have. to forget until we stop forgetting and. start remembering? That's the moment of. change. Don't care how many times you. fell off the bicycle if you ride the. bicycle now. You ride the bike.