WORLD'S #1 COUPLES THERAPIST: "If Your Partner Says THIS, the Relationship Is in TROUBLE!"

Couples come in basically saying, "Doctor, can you change my partner? I. think you guys should just break up and. stop torturing each other or I'm just. not the right person for you.". Dr. Orna Guralnik is a clinical. psychologist, psychoanalyst, and a. writer. The star of the groundbreaking. show Couples Therapy, she explores the. depths of human relationships and. trauma. Everyone feels like they've. dated a narcissist. How accurate are. they? 100% accurate. When you find couples coming with. financial issues, is it really about. money? They want to feel like, "No, money.

doesn't matter." But it matters to. everyone. Do more people want more. intimacy or more sex? What's the first hard question you. should ask yourself in a relationship? Can I give? What about when someone. feels, "I've given them too many chances and. they're just not shifting"? That would have been a situation where I. would say that the pain of divorce is. worth it. How do you know your. relationship is strong enough? I would say. the number one health and wellness.

podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the. only Jay Shetty. What would you say are the top three. things you hear when someone first comes. in to your office? I often joke about it. that that. most couples come in saying that they. have problems in communication. Now, I understand that it looks like a. problem in communication because the way. couples interact with each other is by. mostly by talking, although there's a. lot of nonverbal talking through one's.

feet. But where whatever's going on. between them manifests is going to be in. their communication. So, couples. typically think, "If only we could. communicate better, our problems would. be solved." Um so, that's the number one. thing that people come in with. Then there are particular kind of. we could say content areas that couples. come complaining about depending on. where they are in their life cycle.

Very common one is division of labor. It's not fair. Who's doing what more? Questions around intimacy. Whether it's sex or spending time. together or connecting. Then there are ways in which. their early childhood manifests in their. couples' life. But I'd say those are like the key. areas. So, it sounded like when you were. saying people come in and they think.

communication's the issue. Yeah. The look on your face was that's. not really the issue. Right. So, what is the issue? Right. Well, there are many issues, but the. thing is when you when you guide people. into how to communicate better. and how to really speak and listen to. each other and get to the heart of the. issue, usually there are real issues. that are underlying the issues of. communication and. often people make communication. difficult. because it's hard for them to touch the.

real issues. So, they. defensively create problems in. communication. So, when you're asking what are the real. issues, at least from my perspective, I. think if I had to like summarize it in. the. in the most succinct way, I would say. the real issue that couples face is that. they're. building a relationship or with another. person who's different from them. And that is really hard.

It's very exciting. It's a source of. growth. It's it's a source of desire. It's a source of lots of good things, but it's also incredibly difficult and. annoying. Whether it's like the small habits of. another person or the deepest core of. who they are and their values and their. politics. There are many ways in which. the otherness of your partner infringes. on you and. puts you in all sorts of like difficult.

positions. Mhm. Yeah, I mean, I'm. thinking back to it. I remember when. my wife and I when we were just dating. and when we lived together for a brief. amount of time, that was when I was. like, oh, I think we could be good. together because it was it felt easy. to go to work, be in the same space. We. kind of had a good distribution of. household responsibilities. Like we we. felt like we had a flow. It's really. interesting to me because. when I look earlier in my dating life.

and when I speak to so many people. myself, sometimes you can be such good. partners when you're boyfriend and. girlfriend or whatever your makeup may. be, but then when you move in together, you're not as good roommates. Yeah. And it feels like that transition is. where so much of this is discovered. Yes, that is probably the first round in. which things are discovered, like the. living together. And you can think of it as. compatibility. Some people just have similar habits or,

you know, they they like the dishwasher. loaded a particular way similarly or. and and it makes it easy. But if you if you go kind of. deeper under, I think part of it is how. do you respond to otherness? How do you. respond to someone who's different from. you in the smallest way and in the. biggest way? And for some of us, differentness poses. a lot of issues, a lot of problems. It.

feels. intrusive. It makes you question your. own beliefs. It's. you you you immediately get into. questioning who's right, who's wrong, who's top, who's bottom. Otherness can trigger a lot of stuff, whatever the otherness is. And for some. people it's more easygoing. It's easier. to just accept the fact that people have. different habits. Part of it is. compatibility, and part of it is like, can you really are you ready to tolerate. another person and to.

adjust to another person and and change. in response to letting someone else into. your life. I'm really appreciating the. language with that you're explaining. this because I genuinely don't believe. I've heard it that simply before. And well, and I say that because. I think we often make it about do we. have compatibility, do we have. chemistry, do we have connection? And. really you're so right that it's feeling. othered or otherness.

that really causes all of our conflict. And and I have I have a Oh, I want to. want to apologize. We never introduced. Nico. I think Nico's making me aware. now. Nico's saying like, wait, you left. me out. me? This beautiful being that we have. roaming around us at all times is Nico, who we're very grateful is here and is. even more beautiful in person. When. Radhi and I first started living. together, we found that we had very a. very small example, we had very. different routines in how we liked to. host and entertain. So, if we had.

friends over, we both want to have dinner with them. But then after having dinner, I want to. hang out on the couch, I want to talk to. them, I want to relax, I want to spend. time with them. Radhi wants to get into. the kitchen and clean. while everyone's there. Right. And then go to hanging. Yeah. And I want to hang out with. everyone, and then I want to go and. clean when everyone's left. Totally get it. And mine comes from how. I was raised, so that's what we did in. my house. And hers comes from how she. was raised. Right. Now, I don't think there's a.

better or worse, I think it's a. preference. But what I found was that. when I would hang out straight after. eating and I wouldn't clean up, there. were times when Radhi would see that as. me not valuing her Right. Shirking. responsibility. Exactly. Shirking responsibility or you. expect me to do everything. Yeah. And that's not how I felt. Right. But that's how it came across. Right. That's why what you're saying. resonates with me so strongly because. the otherness of activity also leads to. the otherness of emotion. And all of a. sudden now you're filling in the gaps of.

that space of being othered. So to her. it became I'm disrespected, I'm not. valued. I you're shirking. responsibility, you're lazy, whatever it. may have been. Exactly. it became well, I'm just trying to hang. out. What's wrong with you? Why can't. you just have fun? You know, why do you. have to be so fixated on cleaning up? Like why are you so whatever it may be, right? So now. Yeah. Can I Of course. borrow this from from my book? yeah. Please. That's. Cuz this is like a perfect example. And.

just the way you said it also, that. that's exactly it. That there's a space. of difference and you don't understand. why you're different and you immediately. start. building theories that are basically. meant to answer the question. I how am I right and what's wrong with. you? Right? Because difference we can't just. it's very hard for us to just let. difference sit there and just say we're. just different. And how are we going to.

move with this difference? What's the. best way to move with it? We immediately. start like involving I don't know what. it is. It's like our ego or or something. about who we are that's at question with. difference and that's where a lot of the. trouble starts coming in. Like you build. theories. Like she's building a theory. that you're like shirking responsibility. or oh, here is another guy just wanting. the woman in the kitchen. Yeah. And. you're like oh, here is a wife that. doesn't want to have fun. She's just.

going to be like. nagging me to do this, that and the. other. I mean, we know the theories. It's very easy to. kind of inject theories in there. But, part of what happens in in couples. work, and you know, you don't know you. don't have to do it through therapy, but. part of what happens is. you start tracking the automatic way. that you assign all these scripts to. your partner. to avoid just dealing with the. discomfort of otherness.

I think of it sometimes like a thorn, like a thorn that gets stuck in you that. disrupts your way of thinking about. things. Like suddenly there's another. way of doing things, and you're like, "Wait a minute. Do I have to think about. how I'm doing things at all? Do I have. to question what I'm doing? And how am I. going to respond to that provocation?". Mhm. And what's the difference between. like I feel like for a lot of people. they maybe in the beginning they'll just. fold and do what their partner wants.

because it's easier. Right. And then. maybe many years later they'll be like, "I changed for you. I did that for you. I did all these things for you, but you. didn't value me, and you know, you. haven't changed." Whatever it may be. Totally. There's a lot of different. versions of that. That's one version. What's the right balance between. looking for the right solution and. looking for I I'm not a fan of the word. compromise. Mhm. What are your thoughts. on the word compromise? Uh could you say a little bit more just. about That's interesting. I don't love So, for example, for me.

I don't believe I think compromise is us. both saying, "Well, okay. Well, I'll do. a little bit of this for you if you do a. little bit of this for me.". Whereas to me it's like, "Well, can we. work together to figure out what makes. the most sense?" And what is actually. the most practical best effective. solution where everyone's happier? And I. don't think that means some like for. example, with this situation. we have now believed that it is nicer to. host as long as Radhi has the peace of. mind that everything will be clean that.

evening. Yeah. We've come to a conclusion which I. don't think is a compromise for either. of us. Right. It's a feeling that we. both found a solution together. Yeah. And compromise to me makes me feel like. I gave up something or I lost out on. something or she did. Yeah. And I don't. want her to give up something for me. that's important. If she said to me, "Jay, it is so important to me that we. clean up right away." I would value that. and I would do it. I don't want to do it. because I feel forced to or I have to. Yeah. That's my issue with it. I'm thinking. about how I work it out with couples.

when. first of all, couples need to. abandon the idea that one of them is. completely right and one of them is. wrong. Right? You You You want to approach the. difference with the idea that you're. equal partners, that you each have a. valid point of view, even if it's. different. And that's actually not an. easy thing to get to. It's so hard. So hard, right? I see that being the. biggest challenge for couples. Yes. And it would be interesting to. think about like why is it so hard for. us? But it's very hard. But once you.

approach a difference in terms of it. just simply being two equal partners. struggling with difference, then you want to create a space, and I. agree with you that to simply compromise. is sometimes just a quick fix and it. kind of it's like a band-aid that. underneath it can breed resentments. And and you can eventually somehow go. back to the idea that it's not fair, I. compromise more than you, or. but to do what you're suggesting doing, which is to really put both minds to it.

and arrive at a conclusion together, is. actually really hard. You have to. overcome. both a lot of your own convictions, selfish needs, and really work for the good of the. relationship, of the total, the total. good. That's why I often say that couples form. between them like a political system. It's like the first political system of. how do you resolve difference? Are you. going to be like autocratic or. democratic in terms of how you resolve a. difference?

I like that. Sometimes I go back to um. reminding people of how when you have. two kids playing and wanting to play. with the same toy, like how do you coach kids on what to do. in that case? Do you take turns? Do you give both kids. the same toy? Do you just remove the. kids from the situation and say, "Oh, they can't play well together." Do you. leave one kid crying, having to. compromise in a way that was just really. depriving for them and they were not.

ready for? All this to say that this solution that. you're suggesting, which is to really. put your minds together and figure out a. solution that is good for everyone, is. hard. I do think it's the best one, but. I think it requires a certain kind of. honesty and. willingness to give up a certain kind of. investment, selfish investment. in the thing that it that you believe. in. You have to like relax your. convictions. It makes so much sense to.

me because I feel like. most issues are this. Yeah. And most. people are not solving this. Yeah. And we're lost trying to solve. some other puzzle. Yeah. And I couldn't. agree with you more that whether I'm. talking to a family member, a friend, a. coaching client, or I'm watching. something on TV or hearing from someone. about something, this is the problem. Yep. And this is the root of it that we. don't want to accept that someone else. may be right and we may be wrong.

Yeah. That someone else may have a. better idea than ours. Yeah. And ours. may be worse. And that the way their. parents did things might actually. supersede the way our parents did. things. Yeah. And we don't like that. Yeah. Because it makes us feel. almost disloyal Mhm. to our own. upbringing. Yeah. There's like a feeling of I'm betraying. Mhm. what my parents did, I'm betraying. tradition. Yep. There's a ego conflict. there of but this is my identity, this.

is who I am, and by telling me there's. another way, a better way, you're almost. making me feel like my identity is. becoming more and more insignificant day. by day. Yeah. And I'm losing something that. grounds me. What's going to happen to me. if I don't have this identity? Exactly. loyalty can be to to parents, it can be. to. to a particular group that you're. associated with, it could be to your. religion, and it can be to a an ideology or a. belief system that that you feel like.

your your self kind of depends on. No. one wants to be in a relationship where. their partner is just waiting for them. to change for the relationship to really. start. We're self-centered. We've got like, you know, the the our. perceptive field and we don't really see. the other. And working through that and and. getting to a more humble place where you. understand that you've been more selfish. and then in certain ways you are.

exploiting your partner, it's an. important piece of the work. There's a. certain level of acceptance that has to. happen. Of course, we want to change and. get better and grow with each other, but. you can't really be in a conditional. relationship. That's. not going to work. How do you open up. to the idea. that someone else's value. may be helpful without devaluing. yourself? Almost, how do you open up to. the idea that someone else and you can.

build something together without feeling. like you're losing and merging yourself? Because I think what's interesting here. is the person often with the better idea. Mhm. is also not doing it to find a. common solution. They also just want you. to go their way. And so it's also not being led. perfectly, if that makes sense. Right. You know, ideally you want to. create conditions where it stops being. about who's right, who's wrong, but. again it's for the the the good of.

everyone. Like the. ideally you want kind of the questions. of the ego to kind of drop to the. background. and to really get into the state of mind. where both participants feel. acknowledged, safe, and they don't have. to worry about their their identity or. their ego or their or their personal. investment, and they have a feeling that. they're going to gain something for the. good of the couple or the family or the.

unit, that there's something. that exceeds them that will benefit from. this. And and to get there, there are many ways to get there, but um. I know what I try to do in my practice. is to create. first of all, a sense of you know, what. people call now in in in popular. language like a a safe space. And what does that mean? It means a. space in which. what matters to you in a deep way is. heard, is respected. You may not.

necessarily get exactly your way, but. you feel on a basic human level that. your dignity, your your. the things you care about that really. matter to you are seen and respected, and that whoever's negotiating with you. will take that into account, not just. kind of, you know, bulldoze over you. And when people feel cared for in this. way. by the therapist or eventually by their. partner, they're willing to do a lot. I.

think people we're all mostly we have. like an incredibly. generous, creative spirit within us that. if we stop feeling threatened, we we want to operate from there. for the better of everyone. And I think. when you get to a solution where one. person feels, "Oh, I got my way and the. other one didn't.". It never ultimately feels good. It might. feel good in the moment like you got a. momentary win, but you're left with this.

kind of churning uncomfortable feeling. that you took something that you. shouldn't have taken from someone. Yeah. I think I think the challenge that. people experience. is like let's say it's the holidays. and. I'm saying to you I'm like, "I know we're going to your families for. Christmas. I just want you to know that I really. feel uncomfortable around your parents. because I feel like they're always. you know, picking at my career or.

they're always making me feel a bit. insecure about something like this or. maybe they're somewhat. downplaying some of my achievements or. whatever. I just want you to know that. sometimes I feel triggered." Like let's. say I said that to my partner. Yeah. Very untrue for my life, but But. actually it's a very common thing. It's. a very common thing for a lot of. And your partner doesn't have what I. find today is people don't have the. capability. to validate you. Right. without feeling like they're. invalidating themselves. Yeah. So the person responding to that.

goes, "How can you say that about my. parents? They love you. I mean they love. you. Like what are you talking about? Like oh my god, they they've got you an. amazing gift. Like it's a surprise. Like. you don't even know. Like you know, oh. my god, they were just asking about you. yesterday." And you're like, "No, I get. that. I'm not saying they're not loving, but I just feel like I get really. triggered because of this, this, and. this." And they're like, "Look, you're. just crazy. Like just you know, don't. worry about it.". Yeah. just it's not a big deal. And it's not. that that person is mean your your. partner's not being mean, but they don't. realize because they're so scared or. they'll say something to you like, "I.

can't believe you can say that about my. parents. My parents are loving wonderful. people." And now you feel really hurt. and pushed away. Yeah. because you're like, "Well, wait a. minute." So, I find that often when. people share how they actually feel, Mhm. the person on the receiving side doesn't. know how to receive that. Totally. Because they're scared that if they. accept that, then then they have to. accept that their parents are the worst. people on the planet, or whatever else. comes with that criticism. How do we How. do we kind of wrap our head around that? Yeah, you're you're capturing something. very significant. I think first of all,

just to understand why is that kind of. moment so difficult before even trying. to think of the solution. I think one of the thing it brings up. for people, let's say to to go with the. example you're raising, it brings up. both conflicting loyalties, what you. were saying earlier, loyalty to your. family of origin, loyalty to your. culture, loyalty to yourself, your sense. of goodness, versus your loyalty to taking care of. your partner and caring about their. feelings.

That's a real. inner conflict that that kind of. predicament puts the receiving partner. in. They're conflicted between these. loyalties. Just to underline something here, to be. in a state of inner conflict is. difficult. It's difficult for all of us. We like simple solutions. We like right. or wrong. We like good or bad. We don't. like "I love my parents. They're. awesome. They've taken such good care of. me, but they're also hurting my. partner.". It It's.

It's very uncomfortable for all of us to. be in inner conflict. So, to understand that putting your your. partner in that position is already. asking them to sit in a difficult. position for themselves. So, what to do in that case? I think what I do when I work with. couples when they're in that kind of. predicament is. I help both of them understand the. difficulties they're going through in. having the conversation.

Not the solution, but why is the. conversation difficult? Let's say the. receiving partner whose parents are. criticized, I might slow them down. and first of all ask them to talk about. what kind of position that puts them in. Like to try to. describe the inner conflict it puts them. in. Like their love for their parents, and I ask the partner to understand that. they're asking their partner to.

position themselves. away from their parents and that's a. hard thing to do. And I'm asking the the receiving partner. to understand that. the person who's let's say criticizing. their parents or talking about being. triggered is also a complex person who's. talking about having multiple kinds of. feelings. They can both appreciate the. parents, appreciate their connection to. the parents, and have another kind of. feeling. We're talking about kind of. expanding the the spectrum of what.

people can hear and feel. Hear from each other, feel in. themselves, and calm down about it. It's. okay to have conflicting multiple. feelings. And nothing has to be like an. immediate resolution. Okay, that means. I'm never coming to Thanksgiving with. your parents or. I'm going to be a jerk and not talk to. your father. It's okay to have all these feelings and. sit and eat the turkey. Yeah, a lot of I. feel like a lot of men. feel caught in between and their wife if.

they're in a. Absolutely. heterosexual relationship. Like. there's this conflict of oh my gosh, I've got to choose between my mom and my. wife. Yeah. Or my girlfriend or whatever it. may be whatever it may be. Which is true. Which is true. It's true. You have to make a. transition. When you get involved with a. significant other, you're making a. transition. I mean, I love the fact that. you brought up the idea of loyalties, which is so powerful for all of us. Loyalties to family, loyalties to ideas.

There is an element of making a. transition from belonging to one group. to belonging to a new family or new. group, and and that is hard. It's hard for the person, and it's hard. for the mother, and it's hard for. everyone. Let's talk about that, because. I think culturally and different. cultures have different expectations, too. So, for example, in the Indian. culture Oof. Yeah, it's generally seen. that the woman becomes a part of the. man's family. Now, that's a very.

traditional idea. I was very fortunate. to grow up in a home that was far more. broad-minded than that, and we don't I. don't subscribe to it at all. What what generation are you? I'm like. first generation in in England. Yeah, in England. Yeah, first generation in. England. I definitely don't subscribe to. that idea. To me, it's. dehumanizing of the individual who kind. of becomes like oh, you were You're like. an object. Yeah, you're like an object that's now. been placed over. Now, do I believe that. we're part of each other's families? Of. course.

Mhm. But I think for me, it was very. clear that we were now building. something together. Yeah. And that. became the priority. And the buildings. that we both came from. were homes that we could always visit. and be a part of, but we had to be very. careful in curating the home. And I I. will explain this the way I like couples. to think about it, because I know a lot. of people who when I say this to them. they get rubbed the wrong way, because. they're like what about culture? What. about tradition? What about my family. values? Going back to loyalty. Yeah. And.

I like people to think about it like. designing a home. And we were talking. about that earlier. Yeah. So, you grew. up in a certain home and your partner. grew up in a certain home. And I'm. guessing when you move into a home, or. you've rented an apartment, or whatever. it is that you both decide to do. together you design it to your tastes. together. It would be very rare for you. to say, "I I this to look exactly like. my mom's home." And it would be very. rare for that person to say, "I want. this to look exactly like my dad's. home." Chances are you're both going to. come together. and you maybe one of the partners takes.

the lead because the other person. doesn't have much interest or talent or. skill and you end up creating this. space, but the point was you knew you. were creating something together. Right. And so I like to think about it. like that where it's like, "Okay, well, we're designing something together." And. that doesn't mean we don't take. influence and inspiration from the homes. we came from, but we're not trying to. mirror those homes perfectly, no matter. how amazing they were. How do we open up. our minds to that because I think so. many people just go, "Well, no, this is. how it's done and this is how it's meant. to be." People come into relationships.

probably with your idea that they're. going to create something together. and that's their kind of conscious mind, but then as the relationship starts to. kind of take shape, all sorts of unconscious loyalties. creep in and then a person might believe. that they're creating this new home, but they suddenly feel like, to use it. metaphorically, but the foyer has to. look a certain way and they don't even. know why. But it's coming from their family of.

origin, a certain kind of It makes me. think also of um queer couples that that. that were raised by straight parents. They have to really rebrand everything. and recreate. They can't rely on the old. model, but they don't have another model. to rely on yet. So it creates like all. these like confusions like, "Wait, are. we trying to build kind of a. straight-like relationship or are we. creating something totally new?".

And it's hard to create new. I mean, it's it's there's something that's easy. when you rely on like an old model that. was handed down to you and you don't. have to like reinvent things and you. don't have to think and wonder what's. right, what's wrong. You're just kind of. repeating something that was done. Yeah. Yeah. It It comes up again around questions of. raising children. That's like it then it. starts all over again. Like what's the. right way to raise children and you. know, I don't know. Sleep training or Yeah. Is it just.

Yeah, and then both your parents have. ideas on how you should raise the kids, too. And now you're fighting about what your. parents think. Yeah. is the right way to raise kids. Yeah. You're like, "Well, my mom raised. me and she did a great job." And then. you're like, "Well, my mom raised me and. she did a great job.". Right. And now it's like, "My mom's. better than your mom.". Right. And And it's you know, but that's. That is what people are Those are the. conversations people are having. Yeah. Right? Like that's what you're. hearing, too. Yes, I'm hearing that a lot. When people. have the experience of letting go of the. right, wrong, either, or.

when they work through problems in a. different way, they it does get. internalized and people. get the hang of it and the and the good. feeling of, "Oh my god, it's not my ego. doesn't have to be at stake with every. discussion." Or right, wrong is not the. only way to think about things. There. There are like so vast other ways to. think about difference. And when you get. into the groove of that, the world opens. up. Yeah. I think we need to give people.

a vocabulary for that. Yeah. And. Yeah. And it's really hard when we've. lived in a very logical, rational world. Yeah. Where like you learned math and. there was something There was a right. answer. Right. And there was a wrong answer. Right. Although even in math, it's not true. There are many ways to get to a. solution. Yeah. But the way we were. taught in school. there was always a right and wrong. answer. So, we don't really have the. ability like and I keep coming to art as. a way of talking about it. It's like.

Yeah. art just doesn't have a lot of right and. wrong. Yeah. It's just taste. Yeah. And taste. can Taste is not good or bad. It's just. taste. It's just like you could put a. color that doesn't make sense next to. another color. and it could work and it could not work, but you're not looking at it in a binary. way. You have a reason for why it's. placed there. Yeah. And and I think. we've. in in trying to get to right and wrong, we've lost our reasoning power. Yeah. Like why am I doing this? Why are we.

doing this? How are we behaving? Yeah. How quickly do you know when you meet. someone whether they're going to make it. or not? A couple? Yeah. You know, I don't make quick judgments. I really refrain from that because I. think humans to me, I mean and I've been. working as a psychologist and analyst. for many years, but humans to me remain. and in principle remain a certain kind. of mystery. There's something about humans that is.

like ever surprising to me. And when a. couple walks in, they might look like they have like most. intense kind of hair-raising problems. My general approach is I want the. mystery of why they're together and what. they're trying to have with each other. reveal itself and and I want to line up. with that part of them. So, I try really try not to rush to any. kind of judgment. Oh, these guys are.

never going to make it. I mean, there's certain things that, let's say, bother me when with couples. I mean, when they're very committed to a. certain. stance of, let's say, contempt or put-downs or. if you want, you can call it abuse, although abuse is a complicated word. nowadays. But there's a certain kind of. um. pleasure in sadism that some couples. develop, that they get.

hooked on a certain kind of. sadomasochistic dynamic. that I'm I'm not into and if I can't. convince a couple most couples want to. get out of that. They don't enjoy it. Um. I'm not talking about kink. I'm talking. about like a pernicious kind of mutually. destructive way of engaging. And if I can't convince a couple to move. out of that mode, if there's something. that is too tempting for them,

then either I think you guys should just. break up and stop torturing each other. or I'm just not the right person for. you. I don't want to be in the presence. of that. Um but that mostly people are not into. that. They might get stuck in that kind. of pattern and they look for me to help. them. But most people want to get out of that. and they and they go for the honey, you. know, they go for the good if you just. help them figure out how. Mhm. If If a. couple's stuck in the blame game, Mhm.

like, "Well, this is all your fault.". And then the other person's like, "Well, I've been trying my best, you know, but. you It's really what you've been doing.". How do you start rewiring that. conversation? What does it take? What. are the steps to getting out of the. blame game which seems to be such a. common place? Right. It's big. Um. there's no there's no one way because. people get stuck in that blame game. which is pernicious. um. for different reasons. My job and when. people are in that kind of pattern is to.

convince each of them to kind of release. the grip they have. like be a little less. convinced and sure about their own. narrative. Just get a little less stubborn about. your narrative. and start getting curious about other. ways to see things. and then start getting curious about. yourself. Rather than hyperfocus on your. partner and put everything outside, like.

try to pull back from that hyperfocus. and start asking yourself questions. Why does this thing bother me so much? What is the thing that is like making me. crazy? Like if if we went back to like. the example of like the the dinner. parties, like why is it so important to clean. right after? What's the fear if the if. the dishes sit there for another 2. hours? What what's the issue? Like look. back at yourself. Don't focus on your.

partner. What's he doing not doing? What's getting stirred up in you? And usually you find really interesting. things there. Like when people are really willing to. like pull away from their partner and. look into themselves, they're like, "Oh, this is really interesting. This is kind of reminding me of blah. blah blah." And then suddenly it's less. about the partner and there's a whole. world to discover about yourself. And and and the whole intensity of blame. goes down, and then people get curious.

about each other. You know, and you're going to be like, "Oh, yeah, I noticed that your mom is. like so fastidious and she's so afraid. of germs and what happened to her when. she was a kid?" And like a whole world. opens. And and the whole blame thing. becomes less interesting. Yeah, I. remember doing that for myself and. realizing. I thought I'd been tolerant of my. partner and then realized my wife's. actually been so tolerant of me. Mhm. Like you have that kind of. 180° view where you just go, "Oh, wait a. minute. I thought I was the one like.

Yeah. Yeah. But that's because I never kept. score. on her scorecard. Yeah. Right? It was. very easy for you to always look at. things through your lens. Totally. You can always count the amount of. overtime hours you did. It's the same at. work. You can always count the amount of. effort you've put in, but you never see. anyone else's effort. You never see And. and we also miss the like when our. partner lets us off with bad behavior or. a bad mood, you don't take note of that. No. But then when your partner when you,

you know, react to your partner's bad. mood or whatever, you're like, "Oh my. god, look, I held back and I was so. gracious.". that for me? Yeah, why aren't you doing that for me? But when you. you're you're describing this change in. you, the thing that is interesting to me, and I I often try to bring couples'. attention to that is I would assume that. when you had that change, it actually. felt really good. Right? People are so. afraid that they're going to lose.

something, but they gain something. When. they go through that change, that's what. I was talking about earlier, like the. world opens and and. good feelings come in. Like, "Oh, we're. both in it together. We're not like, 'Oh, she's bad, I'm good, and like she's. to blame, and it's suddenly like, 'Oh, we're both human. together. We're both flawed. We're both awesome.". Yeah, what happens when. objectively someone is being. genuinely taking taken advantage of. So,

it's like they're doing all the chores, they're contributing 50% financially, they're. their feelings are not heard or seen, they're never validated. The person does actually have an. expectation that you're meant to do all. this. This is who you are. This is your. role in life. Yeah. How does someone. think through that. when they still feel the person's a good. person and First of all, I have to say, it's more rare than you'd think. Oh, interesting. Yeah, it sometimes looks.

like that. Like one person could be. like, you know, like you're saying, doing all the work and the other person. is like mooching off them and. but when you look at the relationship, often what you find is that they're. contributing in some other very subtle. way. It could be. not something you can really put your. finger on, but they're like the. let's say they're loyal to the. couplehood. They're holding like the the. the. the. whatever that thing of the boat is.

called, the keel of the boat. Mhm. They're they're like the most romantic. and holding on to the deepest idea of. what the couple is despite all the. fighting or they might be contributing. in ways that are. hard to account for and and it's. important to to unearth that. And. give each person a sense of what their. contribution really is. Some of the work that I have to do with. couples is. make people aware and accountable for.

where they are being selfish. Because we all have an inclination to. as you said earlier to only see our own. work and only see our own point of view. and. we're selfish and we're not even. selfish, we're self-centered. We've we've got like, you know, the the. our perceptive field and we don't really. see the other. And working through that and and. getting to a more humble place where you. understand that you've been more selfish.

and that in certain ways you are. exploiting your partner, it's an. important piece of the work. I have to go about it. It's it's hard. for all of us to acknowledge that. So, I. have to go about it. gingerly and and sensitively with people. and and give a lot of reinforcement for. being willing to take on that less. pretty part of ourselves. Mhm. But ultimately, like you were saying. earlier, it's it's. it's a gratifying process.

That that's why. it sounds. almost like Pollyannaish or corny, especially nowadays, but I do believe in. the goodness of people. We ultimately. want what's good for our partner. Yeah, it's just that. we want what's good for our partner, but. maybe we don't know what's good for. them. Yeah. Right? And we often think we know what's. good for our partner or right for our. partner. Yeah. And that's sometimes our greatest.

mistake. Yeah. Because we're not really listening. to them or Right. taking in from them. what they're saying and. and feeling. We're self-centered, we're narcissistic. in many ways. There's a way in which our. world view is limited by being you know, the way we're especially the way we're. raised. I actually wonder what you'd. think about this because I think it's. it's very different in Western versus. other cultures, but but but we're raised. with such. a focus on the self. I mean, there's a.

certain kind of narcissism built into. our culture. that makes it harder for us to be in in. deep relationships. Mhm. Do you Do you. have thoughts on this? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I I feel that to. me, relationships have to be about. growth and service. And I think we think that they're about. pleasure Yeah. and ease. Yeah, and self. And self. And that's when we have. pleasure. Pleasure's always The self is.

always linked to pleasure generally. And ease and comfort. Yeah. And it's funny because growth and. service are the exact opposite. So, growth is the opposite of ease and. comfort. And service is the opposite of. self-centeredness. Yeah. I've thought about it so often. I've grown so much more. And when I mean. grown, I mean like challenged to grow by. being in a relationship with my wife in. a healthy way. Yeah. than I have just had fun. So, it's. like we have lots of fun, things are. great, but I've become a better human.

because of this relationship. Absolutely. on so many levels. I've become more. self-aware. Yeah. less egotistical. I've become more. conscious of my flaws. And it's happened. all in a less judgmental way and I think. that's the part that I think people get. wrong is that we say this is the person. that we want to love forever but they. end up becoming the person we judge. forever. Yeah. And they become the person that we. criticize forever and they become the. person that we complain about forever.

and the person you said you wanted to. love forever becomes the person who. actually gets the least loving part of. you. Yes. And so when I say growth and. service I don't mean subservience when I. say service and I don't mean judgement. when I say growth because I think a lot. of people think oh well if I'm going to. point out all my partner's flaws so that. they can grow and I look I'm helping. them and I'm like well no that doesn't. you know Radhi's never done that to me. and I think that's one of the reasons. why. we have a healthy relationship because. we both don't do that. We both feel like.

we're guiding and coaching each other on. things we both opt in and say we want to. work on. What would you say if you had. to characterize each of your. basic stances towards each other? What how would you describe it? Ooh that's interesting. I don't know if. I even have the vocabulary for that. It's a great question. Um I would say I. am completely in awe of my wife. I love. her. I find her to be the most adorable. wonderful human being. I could like look. at her you know.

a video or a picture of her and I just. it's we've been together for 11 years. and I'll just feel this like overarching. feeling of love towards her. And her? I would have to ask her for this. question I guess. But how would she. perceive it? I think I think if she was. answering this in a question to you or. when I wasn't in the room. I think she'd say that she has a deep. sense of respect and. I don't want to use the word adoration.

out of context but like there's a. if if she's sharing how she feels with. me in private or in a in a special. moment or. through a friend who said something to. me, it would it would be that I think. she just she trusts me deeply. She has a. very. positive feeling towards me as a human, let alone just as a partner. Yeah. Um. That's amazing. And I don't Yeah, and you know, sometimes I have to get that out of her, but you know, it's uh. But that But that's. what you're describing sort of what.

you're. It's like the space that you're creating. for each other, right? To live in. That. that basic stance. Like when you were asking earlier like. what what are couples that will not make. it? I mean, that's. that's what you want. You want the. couple to create that kind of space. between them to live in. That you're creating the world in which. you're living. How do you encourage them. to do that when they're saying to you, But he But he But he. Yeah, when I look at my partner, he's.

like, I know he's a good guy at heart. I I know I know he's I know he means. well. But he just, you know, what he does is. watch football all weekend. Right. And. like he always forgets my birthday. Mhm. And you know, he's just like it's always. about like spending time with his. family. Right. And like you know, I don't even. think he even He never wants to talk. about his feelings. Like you know, if. that's what you're hearing. Right. It's very difficult to what. hear. I do hear that. How do you encourage them to heal that? Well, hopefully, you know, to have that.

kind of stance that you described so. beautifully, like that you each kind of. provide for each other. First of all, it. you have to have that capacity inside. you, right? Meaning it speaks to some. way that you come into the relationship. with. a capacity to love, right? Like a a. capacity to experience those kind of. feelings towards another person. And then. which is great, and I believe. most of us have that. I mean, most of us.

have enough good inside us that we have. that. It's just now, how do you create. the conditions where that is the thing. that can come out? And couples come into treatment. basically. I often. joke about the fact that. couples come in basically saying, "Doctor, can you change my partner?". That that's like they won't say it, but. that's really why couples come into my. office. Can you please change my. partner? Everything will be okay if you.

just change her. But when you. get people less invested in what we were. saying earlier, like the blame, blame, blame, and. he did this, she did that, and get them. back into the this feeling of awe. about another person, this feeling like, but actually look at them. They're. they're just so wonderful in some. elemental way, in some way that I know, I know their goodness. Remember that feeling, like approach.

them from that place. You're creating the conditions for that. person to thrive. Right? When you When you're When your. wife looks at you with adoration, that's. when your best self will come out. When. your wife looks at you like, "Ugh, you. up again." For sure. You're just. like, "I don't care anymore. I'm I'm. going to go play video games. Like, who. needs that?" Right? So, you're you're By. the way you're looking at your partner,

you're inviting certain parts of. themselves out. And I remind people of that. We respond. to each other. We respond to the gaze, to the the music we're sending each. other. And it it invites different parts. of us out. What about when someone feels. I've given them too many chances. I've. I've given them that lens for too long. Mhm. And they're just not shifting, but. they've not done anything terrible where. I need to leave them. But they're also not making any progress. on this path, and I kept looking at them.

with a loving lens, with a compassionate. lens, but I just keep running out of. patience. In that case, I would need to. hear from the partner what's going on. I mean, some people I mean, is the. partner depressed? I don't know. What. what's going on there? Like, if if. really a lot is on is being offered, and. the partner can't pick up on those. nutrients, what's going on? Are they Maybe they're going through. something. Maybe they're.

Maybe there's something completely. different going on on their end, some. kind of grudge, or something that. they haven't had a chance to to really. articulate. I mean, that would be. interesting for me if that happens. That's not the typical thing that. happens between people. Interesting. I mean, typically, if you. put good out, good will come back. And I. like that idea of. when you look at your partner in a. certain way, it's what they feel, and it's what you. feel. And I think it goes back to that. human need we all have as wanting.

someone to believe in us. Yeah. There's. such a feeling Like, I believe everyone. has that at the core. Of course. Like, everyone But But there's very few. people who believe in you, or at least. you make you feel that way. Yeah. It starts, obviously, you know, you know, I'm a psychoanalyst, so I'm. eventually going to. go back to childhood. But it starts with. the way whoever raised you looked at. you. Like, what was the. you know, it doesn't have to be the. mother, but what was the look in your. mother's eye when she saw you? Did the.

mother's eyes ultimately sparkle and. like, "Oh, my baby.". Or did the mother always say, "Ugh, you're always disappointing.". Right? There There's like this basic way. in which we're invited into the world or. not. that stays with us. And And. that's a powerful kind of early. early platform from which we operate. What's the first hard question you. should ask yourself in a relationship?

I would say, um, maybe am I ready. to let. someone else. in. with their otherness. with the challenge to my narcissism. Am I ready for that? This is sort of following everything. we've been saying. That's a great.

question. Can I give? Yeah, can I give? Yeah. Yeah. And can I hold space Mhm. for someone. else to have to go through their. transformation. Yeah. Because chances. are they're not going to come fully. formed. Right. And even if they're. perfect on my wedding day or right now, chances are they're going to go through. stuff. Yeah. And being honest with. myself cuz I think sometimes we feel. guilty. I know a lot of people who say to me,

"Jay, I would have stayed with him.". Like they're someone that they're. dating, they're not married, they're not. in a committed relationship. They're. like, "I would have stayed with him, but. I don't think I can for what he has to. go through and grow through. Wow. You. know, he's not ambitious, he needs to. figure out his career, he's struggling. with his mental health. Like, I don't. know if I want to be the person. to go through it with him." Right, although I would also say in that case, you're not ready.

You're not ready, and. no one wants to be in a relationship. where their partner is just waiting for. them to change for the relationship to. really start. You want to feel like your. relationship is your home, not. the future home you're going to have if. you change. Yeah. There's a certain. level of acceptance that has to happen. Of course we want to change and get. better and grow with each other, but you. can't really be in a conditional. relationship. I'm going to love you when you change.

I'm going to be generous with you when. you change. That's not the real thing. what people want. Uh that's that's. not going to work. I literally feel like. we find someone that we find attractive. Mhm. and that we enjoy our time with. Mhm. and then we want to change. everything else about them. True. Like that's literally what we're. looking for. Cuz you'll meet people who. like they'll find the person who. actually has everything set up for the. future. Mhm. But we're not attracted to them and. we don't like hanging out with them. And. so we're like, "Oh, I can't be with you, obviously.".

But then we the opposite we're like, "Oh. yeah, you're my person. I'm attracted to. you. We love hanging out and having. drinks and we have good banter and we. can, you know, we can just spar. verbally. Yeah. And you must be the. perfect person for me even though I. don't like anything about your actual. life. What? Like you're not ambitious, you don't. have a good career, you don't make. enough like all the stuff that we think. is important, right? I would probably. frame it differently. Please. I would. say. the person that you.

really kind of get hooked onto and feel. like you are the person I want to be. with. probably has in them. components of things that are really. important for you to revisit and work on. that are not easy. Mhm. And. know that. You don't know that. You're. just in your gut you're terribly. attracted to that person and and no. matter all the other good partners that. seem to have all the good qualities are. not sticking and then that one partner. that one person you keep going back to.

because there's something there. then the preoccupation with wanting to. change that partner. is typically some way that you're. working through something deep within. yourself. Cuz, you know, ultimately, I mean, even. when people talk about ambition or or. it's like it's not about that. Like, why. do you need your partner to be so. ambitious? You go be ambitious if you. want ambition. It's It's usually you're working through. something.

There was a couple on the show that that. were a great example of that. where. the woman started off. with like. really intense complaints about her. husband that he's not ambitious. And. ultimately, we learned that. a lot of it had to do with like her mom. and father, like a repeat of some kind. of old story that never got resolved. between her parents, and she was totally. working it out through her husband. And once she got focused on the parents.

and on her early history, she was. suddenly back to like. the best friendship in the world with. her husband. They They were just like so. adorable together. You know, it's It's often something else. that creates this kind of you got to. change for me. Yeah. Yeah, because it reminds us of something. from. It reminds us of something that we. haven't resolved or that your parents. haven't resolved or. it could be like. I mean, I don't know if we want to get.

into that, but it could have been like. something like politically that wasn't. resolved. I'll just say in general that. that couldn't resolve a certain issue of. passports between them. That had to do with one of them being. Palestinian and like not having like. statehood and would fight with their. partner about passports, but it had. nothing to do with the partner. It. didn't even have to do with their own. families. It had to do with Palestinian. identity. All sorts of things make their. way into.

what seems like an issue between the. partners that come from really other. places. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm I'm when. people start like blaming their partner. for stuff, for me it's like a riddle. Yeah. What is this really about? And. those are the kind of questions that. if we reflect on it ourselves, too, Mhm. it can help us so much. I mean, are you. Do you find that. are women more prone to be the fixers? First of all, I think things are. changing as far as genders, so it's a.

little hard to make. real statements about like women and. men. But if I had to kind of say something. general, I'd say women are. they're raised to be more kind of tuned. into the. ins and outs of a relationship and kind. of take care of the relationship in a. certain way in terms of like. talking more, bringing feelings to the.

table, and men are more tuned into like the. frame around the relationship and and a. certain kind of loyalty over time. They They They add a certain rudder to. the relationship. So, it it's different ways of tending to. the relationship, but even that, it. changes a lot, and of course it then. looks very different in queer. relationships, so. But that's kind of my. crude generalization about women and.

men. Yeah. How have How have you helped men who. struggle to open up about their. emotions, open up? Because I think. sometimes there's a lot of pressure. for men to show up emotionally. Right. But he may never have had that. training or that vocabulary or that safe. space his whole life. Well, he probably. has anti-training, right? Men men are I. mean, again, it's different nowadays,

but. typically men are raised to. disavow their feelings, focus on. um power, protection. I mean, important functions. Not not to. minimize that. There's There's a lot of. value in those, but but they're they're. raised to. turn away from their feelings. And. I What I do in my work with men is.

I. in a way teach them to pay attention to. small hints about their emotional world. And they're always there. A stomach. ache, tightness in the chest, uh. a habit that is. not good for them. And to follow those beginning hints and. clues and try to get curious about what. else can they tell me about their. emotions.

And when they start getting in touch. with feelings, it's usually it's very. gratifying. It's It's good to get in. touch with your feelings. It It feels. good. You feel more grounded. Your Your. Your world gets richer. And your relationships get better. So, it's it's really starting from the. little clues from and and developing. curiosity. And then kind of developing a. menu, like a vocabulary for all these. little things that happen in you. Like. from having like three words for. feelings,

like I'm angry, I'm bored, I'm happy. You know, you can start. expanding to 12 words and then. eventually to like 70 words and then you. know, it gets It gets interesting. Yeah. And I feel like people have to be. patient. Mhm. That's what I found in. relationships the most uh. a lot of us are waiting for everything. to change at the next therapy session. Yeah. The next 24 hours. Yeah. The next argument. Or we just.

learned that in therapy, it should be. solved now. Right. And I'm like, you realize they've. been practicing that habit for like 29. years. Generations, generations. Yeah, and and generations even more than. 29 years. And so, I just feel like we've. lost our ability. to be patient. because. there's so much choice. Yeah. And. there's a feeling that well, someone. must be able to do all these things. Yeah. What do we do when we think that. way? I'm a big advocate for, you know,

slowness. I mean, psychoanalysis is a slow. process. We spend like several times a week and. over years, like slowly attending to. things. I think when people are. offered the experience of going through. things slowly, they suddenly remember, oh, this is. actually good for me. I mean, rather than scrolling through. like a million quick videos or or. snippets of things or like just the.

headlines of news, to sink into. something is actually gratifying. Right? It's it it feels good. Yeah, it does. You just have to be. guided. You have to offer people a. frame, like the analytic frame. Like. people sit in my office, a couple sits. for an hour without looking at their. phones, and we're slowly working through. things, and then it feels good, and. things really happen. So, it's just having the experience. Yeah. Let's I want to focus on a different.

life cycle part of relationships. When. people are starting to date, are there. things that they can look for. that show the sign of someone being a. strong partner for them? Or a weak partner? You know, that so much happens early on. when we just meet people. that is unconscious. So much is unconscious. Like years later. you'll you'll be able to analyze why you. really like this person or what went. wrong. So it's hard to make people.

really fully aware of what's moving. them. I would say. listen to your gut. Your gut is telling you important. things. And it might be telling you. important things about yourself, about. your own history. It might be telling. you to keep repeating the same mistakes. Or it might be telling you something. really worth listening to about the. other person that is good. Don't be. afraid. So, listen to your gut.

I would also say listen to what the. other person is telling you. People often disclose a lot about. themselves right at the beginning. And. we often don't listen. I know that from. when patients come into my practice and. I'm having first sessions with people, often people tell me everything right at. the beginning, even even in the way they. they're like. late to a session and the way they. explain it, they might be telling me a. lot about their whole life history just.

just in the very beginning. So listen, don't ignore information. that's right in front of you. Like um. Hillary was actually telling me that. a friend of hers um. dated someone who. I think on their first date told her. I have a suitcase of unpaid bills under. my bed. Mhm. And she thought it's funny.

And ignored that. Of course only later. later later to find out, I mean this. person was like a mess. It sounded funny. on the first date. funny, but they're telling you real. information. So listen. Listen to what. people are telling you. Mhm. Listen is generally a good a good piece. of advice. Yeah. If someone tells you. that they have a bad relationship with. their parents, Mhm. are there certain. things to expect or is that too general? First of all, that's.

an interesting piece of information. Talking about listening, I would. immediately get curious. Like, what what. is the person telling me? Is the person telling me something about. early trauma? And um I'd want to know what happened. and how did this person what does it. mean to not have a good relationship. with the parent after trauma? So, I'd want to know what happened um.

and is the person you're getting to know. are they let did something bad happen to. them with their family of origin and. they have developed a certain kind of. wisdom where they know how to separate. themselves from. from earlier traumatic experiences or. not good experiences and they've kind of. formed their own personhood in a way. that you can trust.

or is this I mean. to the other end of things is someone in. a way stuck in something that they kind. of have not found a way to. work their way out of and they're going. to be forever stuck in a certain old. pattern. that they really need to be doing the. work to move out of. So, you know, I mean. I'm giving two extremes. Like, one is. I've had like something bad happened to.

me or this was not good and I'm. I'm I've just worked my way out of it. and I'm. separate from this family of origin or. on the other extreme is yeah, I hold a. grudge and I'm forever begrudging these. parents and really I'm going to be. repeating that in this relationship too. because. this is my life story, grudge. It's so. hard because it seems like. long-term relationships, which is what. we all want Mhm. require three types of.

healing. Like that person needs to heal, you need to heal, and then you need to. heal together. Right. And you need to. make space for them to heal. They need. to spend make space for you to heal. You. need to make space for yourself to heal. And then there's so much healing. required. Yeah. And it requires so much. patience, compassion, empathy, like. almost endless to some degree. Again, I'm not talking about abusive or, you know, violent relationships. We're talking.

about a relationship that's. not abusive or violent. There's There's. like endless amounts because. you know, it's like things were great. and then you had a child and then the. childhood challenges and then you went. through that together and I've had so. many friends this year go through a. miscarriage and like that created new. things in their relationship that they. didn't have before because they both. dealt with grief differently. Yeah. Samsara. life's Life is difficult. I mean, life's. amazing, but life is full of.

I mean, you know, the Americans think. that. life is about pleasure and happiness. I. mean, life is a challenge. I mean, there. I mean, death is embedded in life. I. mean, life is full of difficulties. There's always loss, there's always a. challenge. There It's It's the stuff of. life. And. I welcome that. That's what life is about. How do you. know your relationship is strong enough? How do you prepare?

Not that you can ever prepare for. anything like that, but how do you know. you're in a strong, healthy. relationship? Because I think up until. now the only marker we've had, which I. don't agree with, is we never argue. So, a lot of people will be like, "Oh, I. have a great relationship. We never. argue." Right? Which is. That sounds scary. 100 I agree, but I. feel like that's been our only metric. Yeah. of how we perceive if we say. someone has a great relationship, like, "They never argue. Have you seen them? Like, it's great, right?" Like, it's not. We don't have more than that. We don't.

have a bigger grading exercise. Yeah. We. We do length. So, we say, "Oh, they've. been together for 30 years. They must. have a great marriage." So, we use. length as a marker of success. Right. We use not arguing or like they. rarely have, you know, disagreements or. whatever it may be, as a marker of. success. And we have, "Oh, they have a. beautiful family." Like, if they have. kids in it, Yeah. it feels like we have. very basic markers. to assume that someone has a healthy. relationship. How do we make sure we're. in a strong healthy relationship? What.

does that look like? First of all, I. would say that kind of what we said. earlier, that kind of stance. When you spend time with a couple, when you spend time with a couple, you. have they have they build a certain. there's a way that there's an atmosphere. around them that you can it's palpable. And if the atmosphere around them is of. a certain kind of mutual respect, adoration, a certain kind of acceptance, that is that is a good relationship.

That is a good world to live in. They've. created a world in which they They're. They're space for them to thrive. So, is is sort of the music of a. relationship. Is it a music of like. a mutual. respect, adoration, or is it a a a music. of gotcha. This is where you failed. This is where. you messed up. So, that's one dimension. I would say if a couple. is uh changing.

together, meaning is there room for each. of them to change at their own speed and. together as a couple? Do they go through. changes and evolutions? That's a really. good quality of the relationship that. it's it's. you know, that it doesn't break under. pressure, but it changes under pressure. That's that's a very strong quality. I mean, couples that don't argue scare. me. I don't know what how they what what.

happens there. What. Do they just not talk? Or do they not. reveal ways in which they're different? Or. that's scary. Um. Tell me more on that. I like that. Like what How do you not never argue? Like what Are you just the same person? Have you Have you become like enmeshed. with each other and everything about you. that is different, you just repress. or dissociate? Are you so afraid of. conflict? Are you.

Where are you? Each of you vanished? It just seems unreal. I think the ability to. face differences, and and back to what. we were talking about earlier, find how. How have you faced your differences? How. do you work through your differences? Is. what's really interesting about a. relationship. And that's where its life. is. Mhm. But can I ask you? What would. you say? I I really appreciate. of like a good relationship.

your answer. I think it's um. it's it's it's unique. I've I've not. heard those. things before, and I appreciate that a. lot. I think one where. both people don't expect the other. person to value what they value. But they allow the other person to have. their values, and they have their own. Mhm. And both people respect each. other's values. But they don't want the other person to. believe as strongly about theirs Yeah.

as they do the others. Yeah. Because I just think that. that's pretty difficult if you're. honest. Yeah. It's easy if you you're. living at a surface level and a. superficial level to be like, "Oh, we. both value family." And it's like, "Well, you don't really. Like, maybe it's. second on your list, but first on your. list is your career. Let's just be. honest." And there's nothing wrong with. that. But let's be honest about it. And. hey, for fam- it's not really family, it's specifically your kids. Yeah.

It's not the whole family. So let's. really be Let's get really honest about. that. And then we may realize we have. different values. That doesn't break our. relationship because I respect and we. know where we stand. So I think that's a. sign of a healthy. Yeah. When we can be really That's what. I think honesty is. I don't think. honesty is, "I did this. What did you. do?" Yeah. That's a part of honesty, but the real. honesty is like, "Can I. the depth of your what you believe in. Yeah, what I really Can I really tell. you what I believe in? Yeah. And you're okay with it? Yeah. And of course when that changes,

it can be hard. Yeah. And I think that's a sign of a good. relationship is how we deal with new. information and change. Mhm. And that doesn't mean you have to stay. together if the information is not what. you want to hear or isn't right for you, but I think a strong and healthy. relationship is where. you are okay with most changes and. you're able to flow rather than saying, "Well, you're not the same person you. you were I thought you were this.". Right. And they're like, "Yeah, we've. been together for 10 years." And so I.

think a healthy relationship is one that. allows for different iterations of each. other. Yeah. And what that comes with. And. rather than trying to hold on to the. person you had on your wedding day, Right. you're open to the idea that they're. actually going to be different every day. and every decade. Yeah. I would say a. healthy relationship is one where you. don't depend on the other person for. everything. Yeah. When you have other people in your life, your friends, your family, your parents, you have other people you can turn to as.

well as turning to your partner. Yeah. But it isn't an over-dependence on them. or it isn't the opposite, which is an. over-reliance on everyone else and no. dependence on them. Right. When it comes to my relationship, I talk. to my partner. Mhm. When it comes to. other stuff, I have other people to talk. about it with. Right? Like that balance of If we're. talking about issues in the. relationship, I don't need to talk to. someone else. I need to talk to my. partner about it. They're the person I. need to go to. Right. But if I have. issues with. something that came up today and. actually I love venting with my mom or.

my brother or whatever, then then that's. who I'm going to turn to. Yeah. So. that's what comes to mind at least. Yeah. And can I go back and ask you, I'm just. curious what you think about like what. for you is like a a sign of a bad. relationship? I want to ask you, too. I have a really interesting. perspective on love and relationships. and. it comes from my mom. Like I believe my. mom made me believe that I was lovable.

and that I feel that in my core. And so giving love for me feels very. easy because I feel like I was showered. in it since I was a kid. And when I say. love, I mean love. I don't mean things. I don't mean stuff. I don't mean. I'm I mean just I think my mom loves me. and I've always felt that my mom's love. was a shield to early trauma that I did. experience but didn't penetrate the. shield. And so I feel very lucky. So I. feel like I could love the whole world. and never run out.

That's awesome. and it's and it comes from my mom. My. mom gets the credit for that. Wow. And what you were saying when you. were like, "Does that mom have that look. in her eyes?" Yeah, I was like my mom. has that I could totally resonate. I was. like, "Yeah, that's my mom.". So That's why you can Yeah, so I have a. unlimited I feel an unlimited And of. course I feel very connected to God. I. feel connected to source. I So I feel a. very unlimited sense of love. Yeah. It. shows up in different ways. Sometimes. setting love is setting boundaries and. not over giving or compassion fatigue. and you know, all those things have to.

be taken into account. But I think when. you ask me what's the sign of a. unhealthy relationship or or a bad. relationship, I think it's when I feel that we're both. only looking. at the other person's mistakes. We're not looking at our own. Mhm. And. we're looking for all accountability to. be taken by the other person. and not ours. And we're not willing to at certain.

times. be potentially the savior of the. relationship. Mhm. When we're thinking, well, they. should be doing it, too. And I think a healthy relationship is. recognizing some days you're going to. carry me. Yeah. And some days I'm going. to carry you. Yeah. And yes, it may have. looked like I carried you for the last 2. years, but you may carry me for the next two. Yeah. And I don't want to live in a. world where we're counting every day. whether everything is 50/50. Yeah. Because I don't think it works that way.

Like my wife was there were you know, when we first got married and we moved. to New York. and she was away from her family. and she never once complained to me. She. missed her family a lot. And she told me she missed them. And so. her family? In London. Yeah. And she missed her. family a lot, but she didn't complain to. me. She didn't nag me. She didn't tell. me like it was all my fault that she was. away from her family. And so I know she tolerated a lot. And at the same time all I wanted was. for her to be with her family cuz I knew. how much that meant to her.

Yeah. And I would say that in those early. years she was so patient and so tolerant. with the fact that we'd moved here for. my work and my mission and and my. purpose. And I was living my dream. But a part my dream is also seeing her. happy, so my dream wasn't complete. either. Right. But I think the point is. she carried me those years because she. didn't feel like a weight. She could. have, but she chose not to. Even though she was honest about how she. felt, but it wasn't like it was my. fault. It didn't feel projected onto me.

Yeah. And then she's been through such. an evolution in the last couple of years. where her role in our life has changed, her career's taken off, her. purpose has blossomed, so much has. happened, and I feel I've been there for. her while she's been finding herself. Yeah. And discovering herself, and I've been. open to that, and I'm like, but if she. was like looking at it in the early days. and was like, I moved for you, I did all. this for you, what are you doing for me? You're just living your dream. Yeah. If she said that to me, I don't know if. we would have survived.

Right. And then now when she needed a. partner to give her space to blossom and. grow, if she would have left me before. for all those reasons or whatever, then. she may not have found a person who is. willing to And I wasn't doing it because. she did it for me, I was doing it. because I love her. Yeah. And I think that's what it is, you're motivated from a place of It's. not like I'm counting, I'm just doing. this cuz I love you. I'm not I'm not. doing this because Yeah, that makes a. lot of sense. Yeah, does that make sense? I don't. know, sorry I took a windy road to. explain. no, it's. it it also ties to a few of the things. we've been talking about. It sort of.

it even ties to like the question of. like if someone says, I'm estranged from. my family of origin. Like again, is it. like a stance of like. they didn't do enough for me, grudge, grudge, grudge, or is it a stance of I'm. taking responsibility for myself. Yeah, and and I think it all comes down to the. the old wisdom of just. what can I do, what can I control, what. can I what can I focus on? It's not. about what I can't control. Yeah. what I don't think about. Or the.

blame game. blame game. I was going to ask you about. some of more of those things actually. Like, what are your thoughts on how. often do you hear the word gaslighting. in the office? Is it common? What's your. Yeah, there are there are a bunch of. words that I hear a lot now in the. office that I think come from. TikTok? Yeah. Yeah. Gaslighting, um. triggers, trauma, um Love bombing. Love bombing, yeah, recently there was a lot of love. bombing. I'm like.

What are your reactions to this word? So, when I say the word love bombing. Yeah. What are your initial What are. your instant thoughts? My instant thoughts are, first of all, I'm old. Cuz I I came in with a different. vocabulary, um. and. I typically ask people to. Or there's another one, activated. I'm. activated. That's People are using that. a lot. Triggered and activated. Um.

I typically ask people to. I like play dumb and I say, "Tell me. what you mean. I don't know what you. mean.". Because they usually the the way people. use these words is. they have a feeling about something, but. they don't exactly know what that. something is, so they grab a word, I. guess, from TikTok. that kind of supposedly captures it, and. then they're done thinking. Mm. They.

stop investigating themselves, or they. stop really They're just like, "Aha, I. found the culprit, gaslighting. That's. what's happening to me. I don't have to. think about it anymore. Someone is bad.". You know, it's usually like. that. I agree with you. Yeah, it's. usually a lot more complicated than I. found the word and someone is bad. Yeah, it's almost a relief we feel when we. find the word. But actually He's a narcissist. He's a. narcissist. He's gaslighting me. So, I. feel like the world has. everyone feels like they've dated a. narcissist.

Mhm. How accurate are they? 100% accurate. because we all have parts of ourselves. that are narcissistically oriented, meaning they're to protect our sense of. self. Some people move more to the extreme and. they're really like. deeply wounded and and have to spend a. lot of energy protecting themselves and. working around their ego, but. most of us in certain situations were. provoked to behave in more narcissistic.

ways and when we're offered other. conditions, we can be more open and. interested in the world. So, it's. usually the way it's used in pop. language, it's usually just like a word. that covers up a whole other world of. things. I think when people talk about I've. dated a narcissist, they're like. that person didn't give me enough. attention. Mhm. And.

what's that about that? There there. could be so much there. Like what what. went on between the two of you? Why? What happened? Where were you in that? It's. it doesn't tell you much. Yeah. I'm so. happy to hear that because I do think. that the word is a relief and it's not. that it's wrong, it's just that don't. stop unpacking it there. Yeah. So, those. words are really helpful for you to. Yeah. categorize, summarize your. experience, Mhm. but don't feel that that's the end. of the investigation. Right. Like there's so much more.

Exactly. doing yourself a disservice. Yeah, and the moment you're thinking. about I found a word that finds. all the problem outside of me, you're deluding yourself. When you find. couples coming with financial issues, Mhm. is it really about money? Money is. a big issue for people. Money is a big. issue for people. You know, the question of money, one of. the questions that people that couples. deal with when they're fighting or. debating about money is.

the deep question of. mine versus ours. What's mine. and what are we sharing? And the most concrete version of it is. money, but it's everything. It's time, it's attention, it's airtime, it's sex, it's. so much is like mine versus ours. But money is like, especially in our. culture, money is like the most concrete. way to talk about it and to fight about.

it. Like if you're making more money. than your spouse or than your partner, who pays for dinner? Like what what's what's the vibe between. the two of you? Is it shared money or is. it No, we're still going Dutch. Right? Fights about money are are are. about the concreteness of money, but. they're also about. where do I begin and end and what's. us together. And then there's a whole. other thing with money, which is um. money is also something to do with our.

relationship with reality. Right? You you I mean, back to the idea. of someone hiding a suitcase with bills, unpaid bills under the bed. Like how realistic is your relationship. with reality, with what you have, with. what you're making? Like when people talk about money, they're talking about reality in certain. ways. What I I usually ask people, how do you. think money should play out between the. two of you?

If you're making more money than your. partner, what is your ideology on this? What do. you really think should happen? Does. that give you more power? Does that mean you should be making more. of the decisions? Does that mean your partner should be. paying for less? How do you think about. it, each of you? Just what what's your. basic ideology? Which is hard for people. to acknowledge, right? They want to feel. like, "No, money doesn't matter." But, it matters to everyone in some way or.

another. They have an ideology. So, are. they willing to put it on the table to. be honest with how they think about it? And then once you compare these. ideologies, then we can have a. discussion. It's back to the idea of. like the the couple creating. the their political. backdrop. Like, what is the politics of. this relationship? Are you like. socialist? Are you capitalist? Are you. What's your economic system? What if we vote differently?

You probably will disagree. On some. level, you will. Somewhere, you will. disagree. And then it's going to get. interesting. It's going to be like. a congress, like, right? Debating what's. the right way to do it. But, it's better. to have that debate on the table rather. than. act it out in those like. What was that film? There was that Oh my. god, it's the film in which um the. there's a shipwreck. There's this couple. that are sitting at the dinner table and. they're looking at each other like who's. going to pull out the credit card? Oh, I don't know it.

Brilliant scene. Everything about their relationship was. in that scene. I don't know. I'm very. sad to hear. of pretending she lost her card. Oh, okay. And him but reluctantly pulling. out his credit card and then there was. It was just like perfect. I was thinking of a movie called Fair. Play. I didn't see that. Did you see that? I heard about it. I. didn't see it. I think you'd I I don't. know if you'd enjoy it. I don't know. your taste in movies, but I think it's. pretty interesting. It's a story about where it's a movie.

made about. a couple who are competing for the same. job because they work at the same. company. Oh. But, it's really dark. And it really. goes into that. the psychology of competition, gender. roles, the pay gap. Yeah. Everything comes to play. Yeah. And it. shows how it affects them from the. bedroom to the boardroom to to. everywhere else. Awesome. It's really well done. Yeah, it's really well done. It just It just. shows you what's going on inside of our. heads that doesn't often come out.

And. and and just how we all feel. And it's so interesting how society and. all of this has such a play on how we. feel about our role and who we are. Today we have so many more people to. look at and view and see how their lives. are going. I had I had a friend who. his girlfriend made more money than him. Mhm. And he did really well for himself, but she made more money than him. So she. but she expected him to pay for. everything. And she wanted him not only to pay for.

dinners and rent and she wanted him to. buy her a car. She because she believed. that That's how she should be. Because he's the man. That's how she. should be treated. And that was you. know, that was for her. Imagine them. having a conversation. They ended up breaking up. But what. would their conversation sound like? Literally this. I deserve this. I'm a. queen. I'm a princess. I'm like this how. I should be treated. Like this is. she would She said something like this?

stuff like this, yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's. amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. And you see a lot of this language on. TikTok and things like that about what a. high-value man is, what a high-value. woman is and a lot of the language and. vocabulary out there today. is it What is meant by a high-value man? I mean, there's lots of different. definitions, but generally it's someone. who does has a good career, makes a lot. of money, does well for themselves and. you know, that the the obvious. definition of it. Well, it's not. obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but the.

To me it's not obvious. Yeah, it is obvious, yeah. But it's just. interesting to hear how these societal. ideas kind of because then we're like, oh, but you know, what a high-value man, you know, and and it's really. interesting because. in my world a high value man would be. someone who has good values. Like Right. The good values being like ethics. Yeah, ethics. Yeah, exactly. Like. character, moral character, like. strength and courage and bravery and you. know, honesty and you know, that's what I would consider a high. value person, forget a high value man.

Yeah. Um and it's interesting how all. this language at play. kind of cascades ideas quickly like you. said, because it's easier rather than. saying I'm with a good man, it's easier. to say I'm with a high value man, but. you know, what does that mean? Right. Um. yeah, I was going to ask you, do more. people want more intimacy or more sex? I. think it dep- First of all, it's. it's a complicated thing to draw the. line between intimacy and sex. Oh, interesting. Okay. And I think it.

depends very much on the stage of the. relationship. Early on one of the things, I mean, we. all know that, one of the things that. binds people, one of the strongest glues. is sex, like. passion and excitement about each other. and like, you know, wanting to get into. bed together. And then. at some point people start coming to. terms with like differences, differences. in scripts, differences in appetite.

I know that the the. like the stereotype is that men are more. focused on sex and want more sex and. women want less or it's less important. to them. I don't think that's actually. true. I think again, it's very hard to make. generalizations and it changes between. like straight and queer couples. So, it's it's really not necessarily. about the biology, but um. but I think typically. there there different focuses for men.

and women. And then later in the. relationship things change because I. think later in the relationship the the. the line between sex and intimacy gets. very blurry. And I think generally everyone wants. both intimacy and sex. Everyone wants it and everyone wishes it. for themselves and and wants it in large. quantities. Everyone needs it. But they focus on.

different things. And no one has energy. for it. And no one has energy for it. And anyway, a lot of it is about wanting. to feel desire of some sort. That's what it is. That's really what it is. And not necessarily wanting, you know, oh, I need to to have it three times a. week or I need this or I need that. It's. it's it's a lot about the experience of. desire and being desired that is really. kind of the. the thing we all want. The the to be.

living in desire rather than living in a. certain kind of deadness. That's ultimately what everyone wants. That's so powerful because it goes back. to what we were talking about earlier of. like we just want someone to believe in. us. Yeah. It's like we just want that. feeling of like I have value. I have. something to give. I'm I'm wanted. I'm. desired. I'm needed. And people want to feel desire. To feel. desired and also to feel desire for the. other. And it's so interesting because. it feels like our partners are the. people that make us feel the least of.

everything because it's like a partner. makes us feel the least desired. Mhm. makes us feel the less least important. We almost have this worry that if I say. too many nice things to my partner, Mhm. they'll get a big head. Yeah. Or if I'm too nice to them, they'll. think that they're better than me. Like. I feel like there's a subconscious This. isn't something someone would say, but. there's this subconscious belief. Mhm. of that I shouldn't honor my. partner too much because it almost puts. me in a weak position. sum kind of Yeah, like it almost like a.

feeling of like weakness. Like if I. compliment them too much. Yeah. I'm weaker in this relationship. because I'm the one who needs them more. It's a fear of vulnerability, of showing that you depend, showing that. you need, showing that you desire. It puts you in. a vulnerable place. Correct. Yeah. But it's. I mean, I think. where everything is. But yeah, people. thrive in feeling wanted and. appreciated. Anything that makes people. more stingy,

I think is problematic. Mhm. I think stinginess, withholding is. like. destructive. Mhm. Give more. Give, give, give. Give. freely. Create a good environment around you. Arna, thank you for your time and energy. today. You've been so gracious and I've. genuinely loved talking to you. I feel. like I had. I feel like I had so many new thoughts. and ideas today just being in your. presence and now I'm like now I know. what it feels like to be in the room. with you and I'm like Sweet.

Honestly, I mean that. Like I I just. feel like everything was firing in my. mind and I was connecting dots that I. haven't before. So, thank you. It was. such a joy. And. Jay. It was wonderful questions and I. love all the both the vignettes that you. bring in that are immediately like oh my. god, the whole world is in this. vignette. And the questions you're. asking, they're right at the core. Thank. you. You're so kind. Yeah. Arna, we end. every On Purpose interview with the. final five. These questions have to be. answered in one word to one sentence.

maximum. Okay. So, Arna, these are your final five. Okay. The first question is what is the. best relationship advice you've ever. heard or received? Stay in your own. lane. The best relationship. Why? How is that How does that Tell me. It means don't intrude on someone else's. journey. Like stay in your own lane, do. the thing you're supposed to do, and. live and let live. Yeah. That's that's. the best way to create a good. environment for a relationship. Second. question, what is the worst relationship.

advice you've ever heard or received? Don't let him get away with it. Mhm. Why. is that bad advice? Cuz that's paranoid. It's like a. like be suspicious, be paranoid. Don't give the benefit of the doubt. Guard your own. It's not a good attitude. Because? Because the way you the way you approach. the way you look at a person, speaking. of what we've That's what you're going. to get back. If If you're paranoid about someone,

they're going to be bad. Yeah. And it. steals your energy. And it steals your. energy, right? Question number three, what's something. you used to believe was true about. couples, but now you have a different. view on it? Maybe I used to believe that. compatibility. is the most important thing. And now I think. like I said earlier that the capacity to.

love someone who's different from you. is the best source of growth. So well said. I love it. I'm I'm like I'm sold on that. idea. Great. That's everything. Great. We've been spending too much time trying. to find this like perfect match, perfect. fit, who's like it's just like there. isn't I think about that with my wife. all the time. We are so different. We. couldn't be more different. Yeah. Like in every way, in so many. ways. And I'm a I love being alone, she. loves being surrounded by family, like.

Yeah. I'm I'm super driven, focused, ambitious. She's fun, playful, doesn't. take life seriously. That's great though. Like it's just but it's so different. I'm always on time, I like order, I like. structure, I like systems. She believes. in. Spontaneity. Spontaneity and complete you know. Yeah. so that. initially did create so many. rifts and challenges. Like it was hard. because it was like I was ready to go on. time, she's not.

Yeah. To me that's a big issue. It's a. big issue. I want systems in order. I want to plan. our weekend out or our vacation and. she's like, "Let's just go and see how. it goes." I'm like. Yeah. That's like my worst nightmare is. to like turn up somewhere and see how it. goes. Like what if it's booked? Right. What if the show's booked? What if the. Yeah. scuba diving's booked? Like whatever it. is. Like what if it's booked? That's. like my worst nightmare. So how do how. do you do it now? How do you do the lateness not lateness? I realized that a lot of the things I. wanted to be on time for didn't matter. Yeah. There were things that were Yeah.

and things that didn't. Yeah. It was me holding myself to a standard. that wasn't always necessary. Yeah. It comes back to her with the. plates. It was the same thing. It was. like sometimes it is important to be on. time. Like today it was important for me. to be on time for you. Yeah. Sometimes it's not important for. me to be on time because it's casual and. it's friends and you everyone's kind of. turning up and you've got a window to. turn up in. Like but I still want to be. there on time because that's just my. training. My mom always told me if you're not. early, you're late. And so that comes.

from that training of just military. discipline, which is what I live my life. by. Mhm. So I had to learn that for the late. thing. And then when it came on the. the vacations, we planned we both wanted one day on, one day off. So if we go on vacation for. 7 days, Yeah. three or four of the days. are planned and three or four of the. days are spontaneous. And we actually. love that. Yeah. It worked out. Whereas I used to. do 7 days planned, but that would. exhaust me. Yeah. And so now I'm like, "Oh, this is. actually a healthier solution." So.

Yeah. Yeah, taking from that. Question number four. What is the most. difficult relationship. you've ever had to help or solve? I I have two things that come to mind. One is. a relationship in which um. I did feel like one one in the couple. was just too. My explanation is that he was just too. traumatized and he kept. um.

really um viciously abusing his wife in. my presence. Um and I really tried everything and I. believe that they really wanted to. change, but I. I tried everything and I had no impact. on him. No impact. Like he tried. I I. sent him to read books. I I worked with. him individually some some of the time. I had to like remove him from the room. some of the sessions and and do some. work. I I really put my heart and soul.

into helping them get out of this like. extreme form of like blame and abuse. And um. I did not make a dent. Aside the fact that I felt bad that I. couldn't help them, it was also. really a toxic situation to be in. Like. the the sessions were. just awful for me. Um.

So, that was probably the worst. And they didn't they stayed together or. They actually stayed together. They did. I mean, I think the work eventually did. help them um to some degree, but. it was awful. When do you know divorce is the right. choice? With that couple, I thought divorce was. the right choice and they chose not to. I I I just couldn't imagine like why. would a family keep going with that.

level of toxicity? Um I I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but. they chose to stay together and that's I. mean, people live the way they want to. live. What can I do? But that would have been a situation. where where I would say that the pain of. divorce is worth it because you I don't. think it's a good idea to live in that. kind of. abusive blaming environment day in day. out. Another difficult situation was.

a couple that I cared about deeply and I. really really understood them. It wasn't abuse, but they couldn't. they couldn't stop repeating a certain. pattern that was. a direct. replay of each of their childhood. traumas. It wasn't abuse. It was just. like. issues around abandonment and. that was very hard. The common denominator is situations. where I'm I'm doing my best and I can't.

affect change. That's hard. How do you deal with that? I try hard. I'm like. relentless. I mean I I will work with. couples. I will sweat. I will put my. heart into it. Um. I'll think about it later. I'll read. I'll talk to colleagues. I. I try. I'm like if I take on a couple, I'm like. in it. But ultimately, you know. stay in your own lane. People are going.

to live their life. I'll I'll bring the. horse to the water if they. repeatedly won't drink, it's I've got my. life to live. Yeah. Fifth and final question. If you could. create one law that everyone in the. world had to follow, what would it be? Uh. Okay. Do no harm. Do no harm.

Beautiful. Yeah. Orna, thank you so much. Thank you, Jay. If you loved this episode, you're going. to love my conversation with Matthew. Hussey on how to get over your ex and. find true love in your relationships. People should be compassionate to. themselves, but extend that compassion. to your future self because truly. extending your compassion to your future. self is doing something that gives him. or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful. life.