WORLD LEADING THERAPIST Answers The Biggest Questions People Ask In Therapy | Lori Gottlieb

I think people treat dating like. shopping. I want this, I'm going to go. find this. You don't choose a partner a. la carte. How do I feel with this. person? That is the most important. question you can ask. And if you enjoy. their company, you feel heard, you feel. understood, all the rest is just noise. Psychotherapist and New York Times. best-selling author Lori Lori Gottlieb. A lot of times relational issues are. childhood issues in disguise. Yeah, I I. think you're spot on. Many problems are. so fixable. You can heal a lot of. things. Have more of a relationship than.

you ever thought possible. Before we. jump into this episode, I'd like to. invite you to join this community to. hear more interviews that will help you. become happier, healthier, and more. healed. All I want you to do is click on. the subscribe button. I love your. support. It's incredible to see all your. comments, and we're just getting. started. I can't wait to go on this. journey with you. Thank you so much for. subscribing. It means the world to me. The best-selling author and host. The number one health and wellness. podcast. with Jay Ready.

I've been talking to a friend. and one of the biggest challenges she's. going through. is that. men tend to. want to have a relationship with her, even though she tends to want to be. friends with them Mhm. and is open. potentially at some point in the future. to it going somewhere else, but is not. putting herself out there saying, "I. want to be in a relationship. I want to. date." She wants to just build up good. connections, good friendships. And what ends up happening is that she.

ends up in these scenarios where. men are then sometimes guilting, shaming. bullying her into believing that there's. something more here and that she's. denying it, and she feels really. uncomfortable because deep down she. cares about this individual, she admires. them, appreciates them, but she just. doesn't see them romantically. And I. think what's really hard is the deeper. point that I think is more universal. that a lot of people can connect with is. you care about someone, just not in that. way. Mhm. So, you don't know how to keep a.

distance. At the same time, you don't want to be. intimate with them. Does that make. sense? Yeah, it absolutely does. And I think. that the the problem people have is that. they feel like, I don't want to hurt. this person. Um and at the same time, they're not. thinking about what matters in this. friendship to me. So, it doesn't sound. like a great friendship if the other. person is telling you, "No, you actually. feel this other way.". So, you want to talk about, "Are you. willing? Are you interested in being. friends with me? Because I'm not.

interested in anything else. And part of. being friends with me is hearing what I. have to say and believing me." Mhm. Otherwise, I don't think we're going to. have a friendship that's healthy. Mhm. So, if you want to be in my life, I. would like to be in your life. If you. want that, then I need you to believe me. when I tell you this is how I feel and. not try to push me into something that. doesn't feel comfortable to me. And then that person can really think, "Do I want this person in my life. knowing this is their hard boundary?". But people don't say it that way. They.

feel like, "I'm going to hurt this. person." or they start arguing with the. person. If you find yourself arguing. with someone about how you feel, that's. not a great friendship. And that's so. hard, right? I feel today so many of. these conversations are happening over. text. Yes. Or messaging. These aren't face-to-face. conversations. They're happening in a way where you're. writing this much, someone's responding, reply back. When you find that this goes on and on. and on and it can kind of spiral for. days, sometimes weeks,

how do you kind of accept that it might. be time to. draw a line, maybe distance or. disconnect, and move on even though. that's painful? Or what is that moment. where you can kind of just say, "I'm. going to honor myself. I'm going to. honor what I wanted from this. friendship. That doesn't exist anymore.". You know, first of all, I think that. this thing about text is really. important. I have so many clients who. come into therapy and they'll say, you. know, we had this conversation and. they'll tell me this conversation that. went on and on and on and on and I'm.

thinking, how did this conversation go. on? Were they there for 5 hours? What. happened? And it turns out they've been. texting for days about it. I was like, why didn't you just have this. conversation face-to-face? And they say, well, that would have been too hard. But. look how hard it is to have it on text. I think it's so much harder to have it. on text because when you're together, you're actually connecting even if it's. difficult, even if you're saying some. things that might cause some discomfort. It's easier actually to do it in person. So, it's kind of paradoxical that people.

think, I'm going to protect myself and. somebody else by doing this on text cuz. you're not protecting anyone. It's. easier to have a challenging. conversation in person. It goes so much. better. How have you encouraged. people to take that leap into having. difficult conversations across. relationships, not just in this. scenario, in person because it's exactly. what you just said. People feel anxious. They feel like they won't have out of. control their emotions. They feel they.

might say something they don't mean or. the other person might say something. they're not ready to hear. And I find more and more people, whether. it's in the workplace, whether it's in. their marriage, whether it's in a. friendship, struggle to have difficult. conversations face-to-face. What are. some of the practices or methods or. tools that you've shared with people to. help them do that? Well, first of all, I. think that people establish patterns in. a relationship very early on. I always. say that relationships are like cement. So, in the beginning, there's a little.

flexibility. So, the other person is. texting you when you want to have a. conversation, you can kind of mold that. by saying, "Hey, let's talk in person.". But if you keep texting them, then the. cement dries and that becomes the. pattern in the relationship with. anything. So many people put up with a. lot at the beginning of a relationship. because they think this person has all. these other great qualities. So what if. they can't really have a conversation. with me, right? Um you know, I have so. much fun with them or I can fix them or. over time I'll bring this up later, but.

I don't want to bring it up now because. we're early in the relationship. No, no, no. That's the time you should bring it. up because the cement is drying and it. dries quickly. So patterns get. established. So if the cement is dry and. then you try to change it and say let's. have a face-to-face conversation, but. you guys have been texting about things. for months instead of talking about. them, it's really hard to change that. Right. very early on establish what you want in. a relationship. And if the other person. isn't down for it, that's really good.

information to have early on. It's. almost like well now if you want to talk. to me about it in person, it must be. high stakes. Yes. It almost like amplifies how significant. this moment is when it shouldn't be that. way. It should be the norm. If someone. is doing it later on in a relationship, how do they do it in a way that doesn't. feel like this is groundbreaking or this. is we need to talk? Yeah. Yeah, it's. it's really it's actually pretty. straightforward. And and I know I know. it's it's hard to do in the moment, but. to be able to just make that shift in.

the relationship and say, you know what, I know we've been texting about this. stuff, but I think it'll be so much. better for us and so much easier to talk. about this in person. Mhm. Yeah. And then you see will the other person. show up. Will they will they keep texting you or. will they say sure, let's get together, let's talk about it. Yeah. I feel like a. lot of people just keep texting. Because. because what they're afraid of is. they're afraid that it's going to be. harder. That again like like they're. going to drop some big bombshell. And. you're saying no, I just want us to be. able to be in a room together and talk. about anything.

Yeah, absolutely. All right, great. Well, I hope. friend, if you're listening, I hope that. answers your question. Another one that. kept coming up from our audience, there. were a couple of people who. felt this way was around and I I want to. spend some time in actually we'll go. back and forth. We'll go back and forth. We'll come back to relationships. One of. the biggest ones that we obviously get a. lot about is social anxiety. Mhm. And a. lot of the questions that came up and. some of the stories that I dived into. was people just struggling with being. around big groups, people going to.

events or parties or even their friends. home where other people are there, struggling to strike up a conversation, feeling lonely and disconnected even in. a crowd, feeling uncomfortable being. able to. share what they're doing and feeling. confident about what they're doing. Let's talk about where's the root of. some of that social anxiety coming from. I know it can be many different things. What are the variety of things it can. be? And what have you seen some of the.

ways of helping people understand that. anxiety better rather than staying at. home, keeping away and maybe not. encouraged to go out and meet people. So, I think that whatever we're. experiencing is relational and so a lot. of times relational issues are childhood. issues in disguise. And even with social anxiety. So, for. example, if you have a story that you've. been told when you were younger, like. I'm not good enough or I don't measure. up or you know, people are going to.

criticize me. Whatever your experience. had been, you're going to project that. onto all of your relationships as an. adult. So, social anxiety is usually. something about I will not be liked. I. will not be loved. And that has to do. with how you were liked or loved when. you were younger if you haven't. processed that and worked that out. So, I think that it's about kind of. rewriting your story before you say, you. know, I'm not going to go to that event. What is what am I afraid of? What am I. afraid someone's going to think and is.

that true? And do I have evidence from. other parts of my life now as an adult. that it's not true. I think. unfortunately, the stories that people. told us about ourselves are about the. storyteller, meaning it was the person, you know, in our past who had mental. health issues, or they had their own. insecurities, and they projected them. onto their children. They were limited, they didn't know how to interact, they. didn't know how to love, and then they. criticized their children, or they.

neglected their children, or they. couldn't hear them, or see them, or. value them. They couldn't feel that that. excitement around like, I love who this. human being is. And I think then that gets internalized, and then you grow up, and you think. everybody in the world thinks that about. me. And A, it's just not true that other. people think that, but more importantly, it's just not true that you are whatever. story you were told about you. So, you. need to say, "What is the true story?". And then you go into that environment.

with the true story. And it doesn't mean. you have to go to a party with a hundred. people. It means, maybe I open up to a. friend bit more. Maybe I try hanging out. with a group of three people, and see. what that's like. And you kind of. experiment, and when you see that this. story this old story doesn't seem to be. playing out in these new situations, you. get more confident going into bigger and. bigger situations. Yeah, it's those baby. steps, and I often surprise people when. I tell them that I'm. in some cases so much more of an.

introvert than I am an extrovert, and. it's so. it's kind of confusing for people, because. I generally am in places where I can be. my extrovert self, but if I go to an. event where I don't know anyone, I'm. likely to try and find one person that I. can have a really deep, meaningful. conversation with, rather than working. the room, or trying to connect with. loads of people, because I feel so much. happier and fulfilled if I can walk away. from an event and go, "Wow, I met one. person, and we have so much in common,

and we share so many values and now I'm. actually going to keep in touch with. that person as opposed to the idea of. like, well, oh my god, I feel the. pressure that I need to talk to 20. people here and I should be networking. and I should be exchanging numbers and. whatever it may be, which isn't how I. like to operate. And so I love that idea. of those baby steps and and starting. small. Yeah. Yeah, and I also think. there's a difference between being an. introvert. I'm exactly like you in the. sense of I really like to have these. deep conversations and I'd rather be. with fewer people and have a deeper.

connection than be with more people and. have a more superficial connection. But. at the same time, I feel like it's one. thing to say I would rather have these. sort of smaller, more intimate. conversations, but I'm not anxious going. into them. Mhm. And so I think what. you're talking about with social anxiety. is I'm anxious to just reveal the truth. of who I am to anybody. I'm I'm worried. about showing up and being found. wanting. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, and and I think that is. what. what a lot of people are struggling. with. So, I guess does it help then.

having a question you want to ask. people? Does it help? I I found that for. people that I work with when they. struggle because they're like, what do. we talk about? I don't want to sit there. and talk about the weather or I don't. want to talk about the news or and it. was like having a question to open with, to ask, to share with someone and being. confident to share on that question felt. like something that definitely has. helped me and help people I know where. you also know that you do feel. comfortable sharing that part of your. life. Have you found any other tools or.

methods that have helped individuals in. those spaces? What you're saying is so. true and I think that's curiosity. That. I think when people feel anxious, they. feel like they have to tell a story. that's entertaining. They have to keep. the person from being bored with. whatever they're talking about. People. like to talk about themselves. So, if. you're And I don't mean that in kind of. a narcissistic way, I mean that people. like it when you show interest in them. Mhm. And we don't A lot of people don't. ask other people about themselves. enough. Yeah. So when they have an.

opportunity for a person who genuinely. is curious, this isn't just some kind of. strategy for your social anxiety. It's. actually a way to relate to people. I'm. genuinely curious to get to know you and. you ask questions about their life, they're going to be really interested in. interacting with you. Yeah, and and I. think what's even more true about what. you're saying is that everyone's feeling. that way. Mhm. And therefore everyone. feels like everyone is uninterested in. everyone else. Yes. And so I've been to events with people. before and they've come with me and.

they've said, "Oh, that person was so. cold." Or that person seemed like they. had an ego and I was like, "Well, no, I. know that that person just feels. uncomfortable in these settings and it's. weird how we all just look at each other. and we kind of make these judgments of. like, "Oh, they were cold. They brushed. me off." But actually everyone's just. feeling quite anxious as opposed to. having this like vendetta against you or. some sort of And obviously. it they could be something else as you. get to know them better, but it's worth. giving someone the benefit of the doubt. and and stepping it out there. Yeah, and.

I also think another thing that turns. people off is when you ask about sort of. external things like, "Tell me about. what you do. Tell me about your work.". Right? Because then it feels like, "Oh, are they trying to network with me or do. they actually want to get to know me?". You know, you can ask something like, "Where did you grow up?". Yes. Something as simple as that and. they're like, "Oh, I grew up here. Oh, really? Wow, you know, that's so. different from where I grew up." Or I. grew up somewhere similar and you know, "Did you have siblings? Did you What was. that like? How did you end up here?". Mhm. Just get their story. Absolutely.

Yeah, I I think you're spot on. I I. think the work question is kind of. it's kind of faded away. I feel like. it's how people used to talk and connect. and you're so right. I think now. everyone always feels like what's the. agenda here. But asking about, yeah, how. For me, when I'm at a birthday party. like, "How do you know the person whose. birthday is? How do you know the person. who's getting married?" Like, how are. you connected to them? I found that to. be a much healthier question. And then, as you were just saying now, like I love. asking people where they're from because. I'm from London, I lived in New York, I.

live here now. It's like it's great for. me to learn about the United States cuz. people are from all over the place here, and places I've never heard of, and. never been to. It can be an education, and all of a sudden, it's you can see. someone opening up. And it's easy for. most people to mention where they grew. up or where they started rather than a. question about like. their job or whatever it may be. Right, because that always feels there's. so much pressure with that. Am I. successful enough? Am I telling the. right story? Or if you are successful, I. don't want to make them feel bad. You.

know, so there's all this stuff. underneath. Um whereas we're just. connecting human to human with tell me. about yourself, tell me about your. story. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Now, I want to switch into back into. relationships because it seems to be a. big one. And. this is something that. a couple of people that came through our. audience have been struggling with. And it was this idea of being with. someone or dating someone, but you don't.

like their work ethic, or you don't. think they are focused enough. So, these. people. say that I'm very hard working, I'm very. focused. I've started dating this person. who I like a lot of qualities they have, but something I really obviously value. is someone who's driven and ambitious. and a doer, but I'm not really seeing that in them. Does this relationship have a chance to. last? Does it have a future? Or am I. always going to feel this way? This reminds me of the saying you you.

don't choose a partner a la carte. You. can't just order up all the qualities. that you want, you know, I want them to. have I want them to be sensitive, and I. want them to be kind, and I want them to. be super driven and ambitious, and I. want You know, you you get what you get, and there's going to be all these. different qualities. And if that's. really important to you, and you are going to feel like I want to. change this person, then that's doomed. That the person is who they are. Now, it's different if the person says, "I'm. working on this for myself. This is.

something that I'm trying to do. This is. my area of growth right now." And maybe. you might say, "How can I support you?". And then you only do what they ask. You. don't do more than they ask in terms of. supporting that. But if you want someone. who comes, you know, intrinsically driven in that way, that's. probably not a good partner for you. Mhm. And and I guess the. the counterpoint is also true that you. may discover someone ambitious and. driven, but they may not have the.

other qualities. But I think it's. obviously what researchers today are. calling the paradox of choice, right? We've heard that so many times. And I. think today because there is so much. more choice, or at least the perception. that there is so much more choice, I think there is a belief that people. have of I don't want to settle. I. believe this person does exist that will. have all of these things. How have you navigated that with clients. when they're telling you, "I feel like.

I'm I'm getting older. I'm worried about. my body clock. I'm I'm scared about, you. know, not finding someone. I'm getting. pressure from my parents and my friends. But at the same time, I don't want to. settle," which is a completely fair, valid feeling. Right. At the same time, you're saying, "Well, you can't order someone ala. carte." And so, how do we kind of How. does How do you help people grapple with. those, I guess, conflicting ideas, or. what at least seems that way? I think. you have to know what your deal breakers.

are, but they have to be the right kind. of deal breaker. So, I want people to. kind of let go of some of the things. that research shows doesn't matter for a. happy, lasting relationship. And I want. people to have higher standards, ironically, about what does. So, the. character issues. You know, is this. person a kind person? The two most. important predictors of whether a. relationship will succeed are emotional. stability. Are you Do you both have. emotional stability? Are you whole in.

that way? I don't mean like you're. finished, right? I just mean that you. can self-regulate, you can have a. conversation, you don't act out in. egregious ways, uh you're honest, those. kinds of things. And the other one is. flexibility. Um you It's really hard to be in a. relationship with someone who's very. rigid. So, those are two things really to think. about. But in terms of the character. qualities that should be the big deal. breakers, is this person responsible? Do. they say Do they mean what they say? How.

do they show up? What do they do under. stress? That's really important because you will. experience that in the course of your. lives together. Do they have a sense of. humor? Right? And when things are stressful, can Can we still hold those. contradictions of this is hard and we. can support each other, make each other. laugh? You know, the things that people. get hung up on are, "Oh, I'm not sure. that that career is the career that I. want so to be with someone, right?" As.

opposed to, "Wow, they're really. passionate about this thing. That's a. really cool quality." So, maybe they. won't make as much money, but between. what I make and what they make, will. that work for us? Mhm. So, you know, letting go is sort of like. a lot of these fantasies that we're told. growing up we should be looking for in a. partner versus who do you want to spend. time with every day? Who is the person. that you really enjoy spending time. with, who you also feel safe with? And I. think safety is so important. Mhm. I.

feel safe with this person because I. know that the the rug is not going to be. pulled out from under me. Yeah, that's. such great advice. I love hearing about. the things that should be deal breakers. and the things that shouldn't. And I. want to talk about those first, too. I. find that. so much growth today, and maybe it's. always been this way, but so much of our. growth is happening while we're with. people. It's not happening in that we. solved it before we were 18 or 21, and. now we move on to a relationship, and I.

don't think people are often getting the. best versions of people. You're getting. the work-in-progress version at all. times. Like you said, no one's ever. finished. But I find that more often. than not, I'm just hearing about such a. lack of flexibility Mhm. and such a lack. of emotional regulation. when I'm hearing about people's stories. and learning about them and how people. talk to each other, how people deal with. problems. And I find, of course, where do Obviously, all of that, I'm. mean, talking to you from a therapy.

perspective, a lot of that's coming from. childhood, a lot of that's coming from. personal trauma. It's very hard to make. sense of that when you first meet. someone and you're dating someone, you're almost meeting the You are. meeting the best version of them. Mhm. Because it's the one they're portraying. or the one that they want you to see. And then, naturally, you spend longer. with someone, you see them stressed, you. see them angry, you see them upset, you. start seeing all of this other 360. I. guess the question is, how do we allow. for the fact that we're less likely to. meet someone who is the finished.

product, but at the same time, give ourselves. enough time to not feel too deep or fall. too hard? Yeah, I think about that saying, in the. first 3 months of a relationship, you're. not you, you're the ambassador of you. Yeah. So, it's very hard to know, and. everybody's on their best behavior. Um. but I think that people, you know, you're still having a lot of deep. discussions in those first 3 months, cuz. you feel this incredible vulnerability. and intimacy, and people will tell you a. lot of things that maybe you don't want. to hear. So, they are these red flags,

and you kind of block them out. Mhm. You. think, "Oh, well, that's okay, or I'm. not going to pay attention to that." You. project onto them who you want them to. be as opposed to who they actually are. Mhm. And I think that what you said. about we grow in relationship is so. true. I think that people grow so much. more in couples therapy than they might. even in individual therapy because you. are forced to contend with another. person that you're coming up against. And I I really feel like A, you have to.

listen to those to those everything that. they tell you. The good, the kind of. questionable, all of it. And just say, "What does that mean?" And you can even. think about, "Well, let me get more. information about that. What did they. mean when they said, 'Oh, they don't. really want kids.'" Like Like, what does. that mean? Does that mean now? Does that. mean ever? What does that mean? You have. to listen to these things. Um you know, what does that mean where. they're they talk really, really uh you. know, in in with a lot of aggressive.

aggressive language about a parent, for. example. That means that yes, maybe that parent. really disappointed them, and maybe. there was a lot of trauma, but how have. they sort of processed that, and where. are they with processing that? Because. if that's still so raw to them, that. will come out in your relationship with. that. Mhm. You might not think they're. going to that's going to come out toward. you, but it will. Right? We marry our unfinished business. So, I think you really have to look out. for that. So, no, you're not looking for. like a person who has all the answers. I.

don't think anybody ever has all the. answers. But you're looking for. willingness to show up, willingness to. take responsibility, willingness to. apologize. That's huge. Mhm. And also willingness. to to bring things up. So, and and are. you willing to hear what the other. person has to say? So, a lot of times. when I'm seeing a couple, and someone. will say, you know, "Oh, this person. never brings things up." I'm less. interested in the fact that they don't. bring it up and I'm more interested in.

why. What are you afraid of? Why can't. you talk to your partner? And they might. say, "When I have brought things up, my. partner tries to talk me out of. the way that I feel. When I try to bring things up, my. partner tries to tell me I'm wrong. When. I try to bring things up, my partner. shuts down. When I try to bring things. up, my partner yells.". I'm When I try to bring things up, my. partner acts like they don't like me. anymore. Right? So, then they say, "Okay, I'm not. going to bring things up.".

So, then we need to talk about, well, this is a dance that the two of you are. doing. It's not just that this person is. avoidant. It's that you are inviting the. avoidant. So, no one's to blame here. It's just that you guys are doing a. dance and you both have to change your. dance steps if you want to change the. dynamic in the relationship. I think a. lot of our inflexibility leads to this. binary thinking of. oh my gosh, if they've got issues with. their parents, then I can't be with. them. Or if they've got this, I can't be. with them. And I think or if they're. like this, then I should be with them.

And. I almost feel like there's that middle. ground of just no, I just these are. things I need to be aware of. Mhm. And. then. I can still be in a relationship or. choose not to, but. I I feel like there's a lot of binary. decision making based on small data. points. Yes. Because we are so scared by. our own trigger or by our own pain that. comes from that that we can easily write. something off that may just need a. little more work. Yeah, it I don't know if that if you.

agree, you can disagree completely. That's just I'm just sharing what my. thoughts are at least. Oh, yeah, I agree. A great example of. that is I I was seeing a couple and he. had a lot of issues with authority. because his father really kind of. misused authority as he was growing up. So, that's a big trigger for him. And. he's really working on it. So, if he. wasn't working on it, that would be. different. But he's really working on. it. But, sometimes things happen. And. so, his partner had this beautiful We. came up with in couples therapy a. beautiful way for her You know, when you.

can see the childhood wounds and you can. help your They're working on it. So, you're not solving it for them, but you. can support them in some way. So, if she. saw him out in public maybe getting. triggered by something, it wouldn't. happen often. If it happened a lot, that. would be a problem. She would just put. her hand on his arm. Like that, and it. just calmed his nervous system. And it. brought him to the present. It was such. a beautiful thing that she could do for. him. And she had stuff from childhood, and he knew, "Oh, I can see the little.

girl in her right now. I have so much. compassion." Instead of getting. frustrated by it, so much compassion for. the little girl. I know this about her, and here's what I can do for her in that. moment. Mhm. These short hands, these little. things that you can do to kind of help. someone. instead of going from zero to 60, just. go from like zero to five, and then be. like, "Oh, and now I can come back. down." We think we can see where our. partner's triggers are and what their. weaknesses are, especially if you get to. know them better. And you start to. think, "Oh, yeah, I know that his mom.

talks to him like that, and so that's. why he's talking to me like that, because he's taking that stress out on. me." That's useful, but often. we don't look at that as context and. compassion and empathy. We look at that. as, "How does he not get it?". Yes. Or "How did they not get it that that's. where it comes from?" And we almost want. our partner to like learn the lesson. Or. "It's so obvious. How can you not see. it?" And here you are talking about like. a a gentle touch on the arm that helps. someone calm their trigger. How do you. help each other understand your triggers.

in a way that doesn't trigger you? Because I feel like it's such a. sensitive conversation to have. And. because we some people are self-unaware, and some are self-aware, or you're. seeing things in others, but you can't. see it in yourself. How do you have. healthier conversations. around. hey, do you know why we're behaving this. way? Do you know why we're talking like. this? Yeah, we just had a beautiful episode on. the podcast. So on our podcast Dear.

Therapists, we have we bring people on. for actual sessions and then we give. them homework to do and then they tell. us how it went at the end of the. session. We had this young couple on and. her trigger was weight. That she wanted. to she was trying to set a boundary, but. it was a very difficult boundary. It was. you know, sometimes we think about. boundaries as I'm going to make this. request and you're going to do it and if. you don't do it, then you have broken my. boundary. That's not how boundaries. work. Okay. Boundaries are about and I.

think this is a really important point. related to this, which is that when you. set a boundary, you're deciding for. yourself what you will do, not what the. other person will do. So you can say to. the other person in her case, I don't like it when you talk about. weight because that's a big trigger for. me. Growing up that was something that. was always talked about. I don't want to. talk about dieting. I don't want to talk. about people's weight or people's. appearance. That really bothers me. But. it got to the point where he couldn't. say anything about, you know, like it it. was it was too restrictive of a. boundary. And so they would argue about.

this cuz then he's just like, I'm just. not going to say anything cuz I never. know what's going to trigger you. Her boundary could have been. I'm going to ask him not to say. a reasonable number of things about. weight, but there are certain things. that he might say and I'm going to have. to maybe leave the room or I'm going to. self-regulate or I'm going to have a. mantra for myself. That's what I'm going. to do. They would argue about this and what. would happen is she would um, you know, we had to get to sort of what was.

underneath this and she finally. discovered it's like, I need more. affirmation. I need more like, just. flirt with me during the day or, you. know, he said, I need that, too. And so. we gave them this homework assignment. where they just had to do one very. subtle flirtation. Um you know, just once a day and she. left a little note on the bathroom. mirror and he said, "Oh my god, that. made me feel so the whole day I was so. excited." It is these tiny things. Mhm. And so then she was less triggered. when like food would come up because she.

he was so much about like you look. beautiful and she said, "You always say. when I get my eyebrows done you're like, 'Dang.'" And she's like, "Why won't you. do that with other things? I don't want. to have to get my eyebrows done, right?". And he was like, "Oh my god, I think. you're so beautiful. I should be saying. that more.". Yeah. So it's just it's just realizing, you know, what is the trigger really. about? And then how can you as a partner. support that? Yeah, and I just want to. re-emphasize that point if anyone missed. it. It's like. boundaries are not to control other. people's actions towards you. They're to.

control your own actions based on what. others do to you. Right. And the the. important part about boundaries is. maintenance, by the way. So it's not. just one time. It's let's say that you. say to someone, you know, if you. um if you yell at me, if you raise your. voice, I'm going to end the. conversation. We had this on the podcast. with someone else that that a father was. kept talking to his daughter about, "When are you going to get married? When. are you and your boyfriend going to get. married?" And she said to him, "If you bring that up, I'm going to end.

the conversation or I'm going to leave. the room because I want to have fun with. you when I'm with you and this just. makes it really stressful. And so every. time it had to be in every time he. mentions that, you say, "Dad, just. reminder, we'll talk another time." And if you. don't do that, if you don't do it. consistently, like let's say that you do. it 10 times but then one time you like. let that conversation continue, the. person thinks, "Oh, I can still talk. about this" because they're not going to. leave the room. They're not going to end. the conversation. So again, it's what.

you do. You have to hold the boundary. every single time for yourself and the. other person is going to realize at a. certain point if I want to be in that. person's presence, I can't bring this up. because every single time they're going. to leave. And I think that's the mistake. we make. We break our own boundaries in. order to show our care or to be seen as. a good person or whatever it may be, but. that ends up setting us up for more. failure because now that person thinks. they can cross the boundary as well.

because we're doing it anyway. Yes. Yeah. Boundaries are just such a. fascinating thing because I find them so. useful in so many areas of my life, but. I think you just hit the nail on the. head that it's our own letting our guard. down about our own boundaries. that actually allows people to think. they can break them anyway. It's not about them breaking them down. Like if you stay pretty strong on that. I mean if I mean people can still do. what they want, but at least you'll know. where you stand with them. I remember a.

small example of what you just said. I. remember whenever I'd go back to London. because I like to see my family there. There'd be certain members of my family. who'd always say to me, "Oh, you're only. back for 30 days.". And then I'd see them the week after and. they'd be like, "Oh, you're only got 21. days left." And I'd just be like, "Guys, I'm back for 30 days." Like, you. know, and I had to draw boundary around. just and it sounds so small and silly, but it isn't because I didn't like. hearing that because I was like, "Let's. just be really grateful for this present. moment." Like, let's have the best time. we're together right now. And I don't.

want to sit here and think about how. many days I have left. Again, it can be. so small, but it can be so important to. you, but I have to honor that. Okay, if. you bring up time again, then XYZ is. going to happen or whatever it may be. Yeah, and the other thing about. boundaries is that people think that. boundaries separate you. The point of. the boundary is to bring you closer. It's I can be in I want to be in. relationship with you, but we need to. have these boundaries. I remember. somebody wrote into the column a parent. wrote in and said, "My daughter has all.

these boundaries about how many times I. call her during the day and she said, you know, I want I'm setting a boundary. and he wrote in and said, I don't want. to have a boundary relationship and I. wrote back and I said, every. relationship is a boundary relationship. You can't just do whatever you want in a. relationship. All relationships have. boundaries. It's like it's kind of like. the difference between being in an ocean. with no boundaries or being in a fish. bowl where the boundaries are too tight. and people can't live. You want to be in. an aquarium in relationship, right? So. there's enough room for each person to.

kind of have their space. but it's not so constrained that like. everybody's walking on eggshells and. it's not so open like an ocean where. there's you can just do whatever you. want. Mhm. Yeah, well said. I like that. analogy. And and I think that the the. important thing about the boundary is. when you set the boundary it's saying I. want to be closer to you. I want to be. in relationship with you, but if you. keep doing that it's going to push me. away. Mhm. So please don't mention this. Right?

Don't criticize me. Don't talk about. whether I'm married because that's going. to make me go farther away. I want to be. close to you. And actually that is a. sign of closeness because if someone. actually learns about your boundaries, they actually are learning about some of. the most intimate Yes. details about you because if you're. saying this triggers me or this makes me. feel upset or this really gets to me, you're actually displaying vulnerably. something that's so significant and. meaningful to you and so it should bring.

you closer to someone else. It's like. that person actually values and respects. you so much to actually open up and. share with you a weakness or a pain. point. Yeah, I saw some friends um on the. podcast we were doing and they came. together and they were saying like, I. set some boundaries and the other person. thinks that I don't want to be friends. And no, what you're saying is I want. this friend They'd been friends since. childhood and things change. Things. evolve as you move into adulthood and. you move into family life and your. different stages of life, whatever they.

might be. And this person was like, I am. doing this because I want to I'm our. friendship matters to me. It's. important. And once the other friend. heard that, the boundaries were fine. It was that this person thought, oh, you're trying to dump me. And she's. saying, no, I'm doing the opposite. I'm. trying to keep our friendship alive. Yeah. And I think that's part of the. communication. I feel like. there's a need for whoever you are, if. you're the person in the relationship. that's almost to some degree guiding. this conversation,

it's important for you to clarify why. you're setting the boundary. I think. often we just say, this is what I want. to do, and we kind of announce it. And. it's more of an announcement than it is. a setting of a boundary. And it's so. much more powerful when someone says to. you, hey, I actually really value our. relationship, and I think this is going. to bring us closer. And that's why I'm. actually being really vulnerable with. you, and I'm sharing with you this is. how I feel when you do this, and it. would mean the world to me if if we were. able to shift this, or this is how I'm.

probably going to behave if this. happens. Mhm. But that kind of casing that. sometimes our communication needs to be. in it it demands a lot of us, and I I. get this feedback from a lot of people. when we're talking to them on the. podcast and through my books and. everything is that people feel like. they're often the one carrying the torch. to help. this maturity develop in a relationship. And a lot of people are quite exhausted. by it. They're like, well, gosh, I'm like trying to help us. set boundaries. I'm the one like setting.

agreements. I'm the one who's like. encouraging us to be positive, and it. can get really exhausting. carrying the torch. How What do you say to people who feel. that way right now where they're like, you know what, Lori, I'm trying to be. curious with my partner. I'm trying to. do this and with my friends I'm like the. one setting up this, but like I'm. exhausted now. And so I I don't know how. long I can do it for, and I just want. them to step up. Mhm. So, often what. what we'll see is if that person will. come to couples therapy, we'll find out.

either the person doesn't want to step. up, and you keep asking them to do. something they are not interested in. doing. And so, that just, you know, so so the. question I would ask the person who's. feels like they're holding the burden of. it all is, "Why are you trying so hard? Why are you. in this? You know, like what what is How's this. serving you? Because this is so hard, you're not happy. Why are you Why do you. remain Why are you trying to get this. person to do something? Why don't you. find someone who is willing and.

interested in the kinds of things that. you're interested in in a relationship?". And so, then there's some usually some. old stuff there about, you know, the. what we call repetition compulsion, which is trying to You find someone who. is unwilling to give you what you need. or want, which is maybe some old stuff. And then, you uh then you think like, "I'm going to do it with this person cuz. this time I'll win. This time I can make. it happen. I couldn't make it happen. when I was a child, but this time I'll. win." Except, you won't win. Mhm. It. doesn't happen that way. The way you win.

is you let go of that, you grieve what. you didn't get, and then you go find it. in someone without trying to change. them. Mhm. So, you're not trying to win. anything, it's already there. Mhm. But. another reason, another thing that might. happen is this couple comes to couples. therapy, and the person says, "I'm not. showing up cuz the other person so. controlling. This person has tried to control. everything. They're trying to set every. rule. They're trying to manage every. aspect of our lives, and there's no room. for me and my thoughts and how I want. things to go. And when I say I want. this, they say, "No, you're wrong. No,

it can't be that way. It's my way. This. is the way. This is I'm the healthy. person, you're the not healthy person.". And that doesn't feel good, either. Yeah. It requires so much self-excavation to. just see whether we're being that. person, or we can often so get lost in. our holier-than-thou and like. kind of this. feeling of like, "Oh, I'm so emotionally. mature, and I'm so self-aware, and I'm. doing the work, and I know the. language." And all of a sudden.

actually we're. we're being so evangelical that the. person that we're speaking to is kind of. feeling like they have no say or no. impact or no involvement. One of the scenarios that came up in. this conversation while we were. preparing for this podcast was. this couple that. the woman earns more than the man. And. she doesn't have an issue with it. She's. very comfortable with it. She didn't. care. She wasn't She That wasn't a big.

priority for it. It wasn't a deal. breaker for her, but it's really. triggering to him. Mhm. And he's uncomfortable with that. And so, if the topic of money comes up. or budgeting comes up. he often tries to Yeah, he he gets very. uncomfortable about it. It can It can. make him can make him angry. It can make. him upset. She's trying to figure out. how does she help him become more. confident and comfortable and happy. about who he is. and not feel this pressure that he feels.

potentially coming from his family or. his his upbringing as well. Yeah, this. would be a great thing for them to talk. about in couples therapy and really get. it sort of what does money represent to. them? Does it represent self-esteem, acceptance, love, power, lack of power? Money represents so many things. I think. people when they talk about money, if. they talk about money in their. relationships, it's such a sensitive. topic. They tend to talk about it in on. the content level. Like, "Let's make a.

budget." Or, "Why are you Why did you. spend money on that?" Right? And they're. not really talking about how do we both. feel about money? What was money like in. our households when we grew up? What. were the messages that we got around. money? Some people got really mixed. messages. You know, money is good, money. is bad. Um we have money, we don't have. money. Um. value judgments. It's okay to spend. money on this, but not on this. And so, you bring all of that into your. relationship. And then the gender roles,

of course, right? So, what does that. represent? What kind of family did you. grow up in in terms of how they thought. about gender and power and money? And. how that changes with culture, with the. kind of maybe egalitarian marriage that. you want. Those are all conversations. they need to have. Yeah. Not about let's. sit down and make a budget, but about all the questions that I was. just bringing up. Those are such great questions and and I. know that for that they work because me. and my wife have sat down and looked at. that through our marriage and we've. we've had so many questions about that.

because we both came from very different. financial setups and our relationship. with money was very very different. I. started working very very young. My wife. started working while she was at college. and after. And just as time grew and our. lifestyle changed and things changed, there were so many conversations. We had. to almost reset as well. It wasn't just. like, "Oh, we've solved it now. We don't. talk about money anymore." and it's. we've had to almost reevaluate and. rethink that topic so many times. depending on how many changes there are.

But I find that those are the questions. that I find people avoiding or when they. do talk about it, it's always a. full-blown argument. So, it's like you. said, it's either about budgeting if. they talk about it in a healthy way or. like at least a practical way is. probably a better word. Or we don't talk. about it cuz you're like so scared to. mention it because when you do it turns. into a full-blown argument and now we're. arguing about not even money, we're. arguing about something else. I want to help people have the tools to.

start difficult conversations. with people in their life. It could be a. of it could be a dad, it could be, you. know, I feel like all of us avoid We. avoid discomfort in our lives and. uncomfortable conversations are one of. the biggest ones, whether it's. when you're firing someone, when you're. giving feedback to someone, when you're. trying to be direct with someone, these. are such challenging things to do. How do we sit in the discomfort. or how do we prepare for uncomfortable. conversations. to help them go better? Mhm. First of.

all, I think that people are worried. that somehow they're being unkind by. bringing something up that's. uncomfortable. The kindest thing you can. do. is to have a conversation with somebody. that is real and genuine and authentic. I think that the first the way you start. that is you start it with yourself. So, before you even get to the other person, you want to be able to say to them to. say to yourself, I'm being really kind. and I'm remembering their humanity and.

I'm going to have this conversation in. an open, generous, curious way. Mhm. So, I'm not here to set my agenda. necessarily. I'm here to be curious. about their experience so we together. can come to some kind of understanding. about each other that we didn't have. before. Mhm. And I think that's the. framework that you come into any hard. conversation with. Yeah, and and it's. almost like it again comes back down to. what we're discussing here today is like. framing a conversation. I think we get.

so lost in like what are we trying to. solve? Yeah. And we're trying to be very logical and. actually it's like, well, no, framing. the conversation in the emotion of. understanding how people feel about. things and where it comes from and what. this could lead to is so much more. important than actually solving the. problem. Right, and knowing that this is. going to be a dialogue, not a monologue. I think that we're like, I have. something important to say and you're. going to deliver whatever you're going. to deliver to them. It's not a. monologue, it's not I'm coming to. deliver or it's I'm coming to bring up a.

topic. And I want to hear where the. other person is coming from, and you. might want to ask them first. Like, "Hey, I know that money has been kind of. stressful for us. Can we talk a little. bit about it? I'm curious to hear more. about what money is what it means to. you, what it was like growing up. I want. to share that with you about what it. means to me, what it was like for me. growing up." And you can have a really. beautiful conversation. The other thing. is, if it's a romantic relationship,

hold hands. It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the. conversation. It's so lovely. Mhm. It opens people up to be more. vulnerable. Yeah, no, I love I love this. advice, and I really hope everyone who's. listening or watching you're. going to try and practice some of these. They're They're so subtle and they're. such small insights, but they make such. a big difference because. it could be a game-changer when you. approach the same conversation in a.

completely different way, and it can. transform the trajectory of your. relationship with an individual because. they have so much more respect for how. you handled it, too, and We just We just. did a podcast episode with a mother and. daughter. They've been having the same. fight for 25 years. Wow. And they came on the podcast, and. they said, "We've never talked about it. this way." And it's not because we did. something, you know, like unheard of. It. was just because they had never been. taught to talk about They've been having. literally the same conversation or lack.

of conversation when, you know, one. person would shut the other person out, usually the daughter shutting the mother. out. And they just never talked about it. in this other way. And I think so many. people think, "Oh, we have a problem, and it's not fixable." Mhm. Many problems are so fixable. You can. heal a lot of things. Maybe not in. exactly the way you want, but certainly. to have more of a relationship than you. were ever than you ever thought. possible. Mhm. All right, I've got so many more for. you. I hope you're having fun, Lori, and. I hope everyone's listening. about all this stuff.

Yeah, it's so it's so fascinating to. just. dive into, you know, these real. scenarios that all of you have sent in. And I want to give a big thank you to. everyone who on Instagram sent me all of. these incredible notes for this episode. There's a few more here that I really. want to get to. So, okay, this this one's a good one because. it kind of relates to something we. discussed earlier, but it's it's a more. specific question on. when in your mind do you know when. you're settling or you're not settling? Where How do you know?

Um I think if you're asking yourself. that question, that's that's a really. important sign. Um but I I think you need to get clear. as is this something culturally, like. the culture has told me that I need to. be with someone like this? Um and whether that's like the greater. culture or your specific culture that. you grew up in or your family culture, whose voice is it? I think that's really. important that as adults, sometimes we. can't tease out our own voice from the.

voices of people who raised us. Mhm. or the culture even. So, I think that's an important. question. I also think that the question. is um. are they you know, when we think about. what compromises we have to make with. another person, we don't tend to think. about what compromises somebody has to. make to be with us, which is a really. important point. It's like It's not. like, you know, I think people treat. dating like shopping. Like I want this,

I'm going to go find this. And it's not. like the clothes when you're shopping. are going to be like, I don't think. you're going to look good in that or I'd. rather be with someone who looks. differently. Like the clothes are not. judging you, right? But the thing is. like when you're going into a. relationship with with going back to. the, you know, we can't order up people. all a cart, they can't order up you all. a cart either. And we have this weird. notion in our culture that like love is. loving all the annoying things about me, too. No, people are not going to They're. going to. love you even though you have these.

annoying things, but that doesn't mean. they're going to love the annoying. things. not. So, we have this weird idea that. this unconditional love. and it's just they they misuse that. term. So, I think we have to remember. that as we are thinking about this whole. human being, this person is choosing us. with all of our annoying things, our. quirks, our maybe our past that we. haven't really worked through, that. we're still working through. And. you know, we have this idea that, you. know, I'm shopping for someone. You're.

not shopping for someone. It's How do I. feel with this person? That is the most. important question you can ask. How do I. feel when I'm with this person? And if you feel you enjoy their company, you feel heard, you feel understood, you. feel safe, you you um you're having fun, you're not settling. Mhm. All the rest. is just noise. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I really. like those. two really powerful points. I think so. many of our definitions of the perfect. partner, settling,

you know, whatever it may be, comes from. a societal, parental impact. Yeah. And so, what do my friends think of him? Or what would How would they react? Oh. no, they're going to know I'm settling. And it's like, well no, was that your. definition of what a good partner was? And the second point that you made there. that I love cuz I do it all the time. Whenever I'm sitting there in my head. and I'm thinking, God, I've made so many. sacrifices for my wife, I've done this. or that, I come up with a list of hers. in my head and I'm like, oh, she's made. so many. Like, it's such a great.

activity to do that. When I think about. I often ask people to zoom out and say, you may think like maybe someone's. sitting there going, I do everything. financially for a relationship, or I do. everything. uh physically for this relationship. Like, I get the groceries, I do the. house cleaning, whatever it may be. I. always ask people to zoom out and go, "Look at your life physically, financially, mentally, emotionally, and. spiritually." Okay, if you're making all. the sacrifices across all five of those, there's something really important to.

look at. But more often than not, when. people zoom out, they go, "Oh, actually, you're right. Like, I pick up the slack. here, and they pick up the slack there, and there's a bit of give and take.". Yeah, and and I would say also one. exercise to do is describe the. relationship from their perspective. Yeah. Right? Like, what are they putting. up with, really? If they were to If they. were to really talk about, you know, the. relationship from their perspective, there would be all these great things, and there would be all the sacrifices. they're making, too. And sometimes, we. forget about that. Absolutely. All.

right, I like this one. Uh. So, there's this person who. was let go from their job and decided. that she may want to get into comedy. because she always had a dream of being. a comedian, but doesn't want to feel. like she is taking a step back into the. service industry in order to pursue her. goals that may be very far to reach. She. has some trouble with structure and. facing the unknown of it all. How do you. suggest she structures herself and gives. herself tangible benchmarks?

Ooh. I think that people make this binary. I'm either going to pursue my dream and. I give up everything else, or I'm not. going to pursue my dream. And I always. say to people, you can have two things. going at once. It's a lot safer to say, "I'm going to try comedy, and I'm going. to put everything I have into it, but. I'm also not going to maybe leave my job. yet.". Mhm. And so, I can see whether this. really works for me or not before I give. up this other thing. So, it doesn't have.

to be so binary. Yeah. I I I agree with. that. I think that. I think too often we make that move too. quick. Yeah. Like, if someone comes up. to me and goes, "Yeah, I just listened. to your podcast and I've decided to make. this big change." I'm like, "Ooh, I. don't think I said that. Like, please. don't do that. Like, you know, that's. that's definitely not what I'm. encouraging. If anything, I'm. encouraging this. journey of learning about something you. love first, experimenting, maybe. interning, apprenticeships, shadowing, watch how the job's actually done. Like, I'm so much more into an incremental.

approach to change as opposed to. thinking that this big all-in approach. is going to suddenly deliver some. miraculous reward. If anything, if you. go slower, you'll learn more. And then. when you do make the big jump, it will. actually more likely be more successful. That's right. And I think the other. question to ask is, am I moving towards. something or am I trying to escape from. something? Because sometimes people will just jump. into something very impulsively because. they want to get out of their situation. and they don't do well with uncertainty. cuz most people don't. So, they want an.

answer. So, they feel like, I can't just. leave this other thing that I know is. making me unhappy. I don't want to be a. lawyer anymore. I don't want to do this. job anymore. But, I don't know what else. to do, so I'm going to do this other. thing. But, you're not even sure you. want to do the other thing yet. So, are. you are you escaping or are you moving. toward? Yeah, definitely. And I think. when we try to escape too soon, Yes. Without thinking it through. Yeah, and. that's that's actually been one of the. biggest things that I've I've actually. been talking about this a lot lately and. it because I think it's impacted me so.

much in my life and I was. it's almost like if you don't like where. you are, if you can figure out a way to learn. from it, and when I say learn from it, I don't. mean some magical life lesson. I mean. like think about what are the practical. lessons I could learn here. What are the. things I can get curious about? Sure, I. don't like the setup. I don't like my. manager, but maybe there's something. here that's actually going to benefit me. in the future. All of a sudden, I'm not. saying that becomes the best job you've. ever had, but it doesn't feel as painful.

while you build the next step. Whereas. this desire to just rush out of pain or. again, pain is maybe a strong word, but. rush out of. a place that you want to escape from, you actually might fall into the same. thing again in another way, which we. again do in relationships as well. We do that all the time. Somebody is. like, "I'm going to leave this. relationship." And then, "Oh, but I fell. in love with this other person." Maybe. you do need to leave that relationship, but why don't you take a beat? Why don't you see are you just going to.

another person you're going to repeat. all the same things in this other. relationship? Or do you want to. understand more about do I understand. what happened in this relationship, why. it didn't work, and then now I can leave. in a way that feels good, or maybe I was. wrong, and maybe there actually was. something great here, but there was a. problem that I wasn't willing to face in. this relationship. Yeah. I want to ask. you this question because obviously. we're talking today about your beautiful. new journal that assists maybe you. should talk to someone, which is the. book that I interviewed you about a. couple of years ago, which is such a.

phenomenal book. It's helped so many. people. How and why is journaling valuable to. everything we're discussing today? I think that one of the things that. happens when you journal is you go into. this space that you don't go into when. you're not writing it down. When you. actually can see something, it's very. different from thinking it. Our thoughts. are fleeting. They just move around. They're very disorganized. And the thing. about journaling is no one's judging it. No one's seeing it. It's just for you. Uh you know, I used to think it's funny. cuz I put out this journal, but I used.

to not want to journal because I would. think, "Oh, it's a chore, and I'm going. to have to sit down, and it's going to. have What if, you know, I don't know. what to say, or I don't really have. anything to say?" And what the the way. that I've structured this journal is. there's a prompt that comes from maybe. you should talk to someone just to give. you a little bit of structure, but it. follows you through the 52 weeks of the. year like a therapy session. And we. always say that the work of most of the. work of therapy happens outside the. therapy room. So, people think I'm going. to come to therapy, I'm going to have. all these insights, and that's my.

therapy. No. You're going to if you don't use what. you learn in therapy and you don't put. it into action during the week, then the. insight is useless. So, someone might. say, "Oh, I got into that fight with my. partner again and now I understand why.". And I'll say, "Well, that's great, but. did you do something different?" Well, no, but Okay, well, good first step, understanding why, but now you need to. do something different. So, when you. reflect every day during the week, then. you say, "What am I doing with this bit. of insight?" So, the prompt will maybe.

inspire some kind of insight into your. life. And then what how do you noodle. that around during the week? And you can. watch your progression cuz you've. written it down. And what I love about. the doing a journal for a year is that. you can look like 3 months ago I thought. this. But look how I'm handling this. situation now. And it just takes 5 minutes. A lot of. people will wake up in the morning and. journal just to clear their minds. Many. of us will wake up and the first thing. we do is we look at our phones and. already we're stressed. And already. we're thinking about, "Oh, I didn't do.

this or I'm behind already." It's not a. good way to start your day. I love. taking 5 minutes in the morning to just. write down so that then it's out there. and I don't have to sit with it all day. long. A lot of people also will do it. right before bed because you know how. sometimes we'll just think all these. thoughts before bed and it keeps you up. at night and you can't sleep. You. journal before bed and now you feel. like, "Oh, I'm really I'm all cleared. out. I feel good.". So, I think that journaling is really. valuable and I think it reminds me of of.

something that we often say in. relationships that it's easy to notice. the person who gets angry in a. relationship and harder to notice the. person who smiles all the time. So, when people say like, "Oh, my. partner's angry all the time." And it's. like, "Well, because you're ignoring. that person's holding the anger for both. of you." If you journal, you might. notice if you're the person who smiles. all the time that maybe you have some. anger too or maybe you have trouble. bringing something up. And if you're a. really avoidant person, like the person. who does smile all the time, it's a good.

thing to put it down in a journal cuz. then you say, "Oh wait, there are things. that I want to bring up and let me. figure out what to do with them." Or if. you're the person who's angry and is. holding the anger for both of you, you. might start to notice through. journaling, "I'm not It's not my job.". Why am I angry all the time if this. person is not willing to have any of. these conversations? This person's. stonewalling me. So, you discover a lot. about yourself and your patterns when. you have this space that's you can be.

vulnerable in and no one's judging. To. add to that, one of the things that I. think that's so special about journaling. is that. it's so much easier to measure physical. change. So, if you're trying to put on. weight, lose weight, if you're trying to. build a muscle, you know, whatever it. may be, you can measure that and there's. a number to it. And I found that for me, journaling's. always been a great way of looking back. a week ago, a month ago, a year ago and. going, "What was I thinking about then? Where was I in my headspace? What was I. worried about?" And often I found when.

I've gone and done that, you can. actually see growth in the same way as. having like a marker. And if you're not. journaling every day, you kind of don't. know whether you're moving forward or. backward because you don't have. something to think about. You just have. your feeling in the moment. Whereas when. you look back and you think, "Wow, 5. years ago, I can't believe I used to worry about. that exam or that interview or that. whatever it may have been and now I'm. like, "I wouldn't be have worried about. that at all. Things have changed." And. so, to me it's a great way of monitoring.

and measuring growth. Yeah, and I think. that change is really hard. This is why. New Year's resolutions tend not to work. out for people a lot of the time. And. you can see when you journal, I talk in. the book, Maybe You Should Talk to. Someone, about the stages of change. And. you can see them happen. So, precontemplation is you don't even know. that you're thinking about making a. change. So, that's when you're kind of. in denial in your journal like, "Oh, no, this isn't really happening." And you. see yourself kind of justify or. rationalize things that you know just.

are not right. And then contemplation is. you know you need to make a change, but. you're not ready yet. So, now you're. getting more real with yourself. That's. usually when people come to therapy at. the contemplation. But, you can see it. in the journal. Oh, now I'm really. getting out of denial. And then there's. preparation where you're sort of saying, "How do I prepare to make this change? What steps do I need to take? Whether I. want to leave this relationship or I. want to get into a relationship and put. myself out there more, or I want to you. know, I want to go after some dream, or. I want to set a boundary. So, how am I.

preparing for this?" And then action is. when you actually make the change, but. that's not the last step. Yeah. The last step is maintenance, and. that's the most important change. And. that doesn't mean I have to maintain the. change and be perfect. It means that I'm. going to slip back like in shoots and. ladders, right? So, it's like yes, I. will There will be oh, I I I broke up. with that person, but no, I called them. I didn't mean to call them. That doesn't. mean you failed. That just means you're. human. And so, how can you show.

yourself, and you can do this in your. journal? How can you write something to. yourself that's very compassionate, but. also holding yourself accountable? So, and how do you can look in your journal. about how do I talk to myself? You know, do I do I beat myself up all the time? Am I a bully to myself? Or can I be. compassionate with myself? Because that. will actually help me to be accountable. I can be more accountable when I'm kind. to myself. So, that doesn't mean, "Oh, it's fine that you called him. You just. get back in the relationship with him.". It means, "Oh, you were feeling sad, or. you were feeling lonely. And you called.

him cuz you were lonely, but maybe next. time I'll call a friend. Maybe next time. I'll take a walk. Maybe next time I will. go to this meeting." You know, whatever. you need to do. And then you're really. being compassionate, and you have in. your journal kind of this this friend. that's really kind to yourself, that. knows you really well, and that knows. what you need to do, and it's right. there on the page. Mhm. Such a great note about. your journal letting you know how you. talk to yourself and the the language.

you use with yourself, and helping you. change that, because when it's on the. page, you can cross it out, you can edit. it, you can write a new version. When. it's in your head, it just keeps. repeating, and you never get that moment. to. to edit it or to filter it. Lori, I've been so kind with your time. today. I want to ask you one last thing, and it's about what you just mentioned. there, and I think it's breakups. And. it's, you know, I still find till this. day that breakups seem to be the. hardest Yes. relationship transition. that people tend to go through,

maybe apart from grief, or maybe even. similar, and I'd love your thoughts on. that. But, because it is a kind of loss, I think, that people feel. There was one person. from the audience that we were connected. with that had a. breakup, and they really they were. together with this person for 2 years. They really thought this is the person. that they were going to spend their life. with. They really thought this was going. in that direction. They they felt that they actually had. good like compatibility. They were good. at talking about things.

But then, what felt like out of the blue. to this person, they just felt that this. person was like, I don't think this is. going in that direction anymore. And. then, things withered away quickly. It's. hard when you kind of, you know, and. this is probably what you get all the. time. People don't feel a sense of. closure. They don't really understand. The other person's not doing a good job. explaining it, and doesn't want to, or. doesn't have the time. What are some of. the steps that we need to take when. we're kind of lost in that no person's. land of. I thought I had something. It doesn't.

exist anymore. Well, first of all, loss. is exactly it. It's grief. And people go. through the stages of grief. And the. stages of grief are not sequential. So, they're they're actually meant for. people who are who are experiencing. terminal illness, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Um. but they're very apt, I think, for for. any kind of loss. And when you talk. about a breakup, there can be denial, like, "Oh, you don't really mean that. We really are compatible." And you try. to talk the other person into maybe. seeing the light.

that they can't see. Yeah. You know, the. anger is, "How could you have led me on. for this amount of time? You're You're. You're such a terrible person. You. wasted all my time. You were lying to me. this whole time." When the person. wasn't. They They probably truly, you know, thought this was going. somewhere. You know, the bargaining is, "Well, what if, you know, you know, the". And the person tells you maybe why. they're breaking up with you, like, "I. don't think that we're compatible in. this way." And then you try to become. the thing, you know, like, "What if I. did this? Or I can be more of this. Or.

we can do this." And they're like, "No, that's not really the the way this will. get solved." You know, depression, which. is just the whole I mean, it's so. because I think what people don't. realize is it's not what you're losing. just in the moment, it's you're losing. the future that you had imagined. So, you you lose the past, you lose like all. the whatever amount of time you spent. with that person, you built a life with. this person. And it's the daily-ness.

There's an intimacy to that daily-ness. There's a comfort. There's a safety of. this person knows all these little. quirks about me. Um you know, we have. all these inside jokes. We have a short. hand. Um you know, this person asks how. my day is. I know, you know, it's it's. the daily-ness of being with someone. So, you lose that. That's very lonely. But then you also lose the future. You. had built up a whole story about what. your lives were going to be like in a. year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. Gone. And you have nothing to replace it.

with right now cuz you don't know what. it's going to look like yet. So, the. grief is real, and I think people try to. downplay it. They're like, "Why are you. so sad about this? He was a jerk or she. was a jerk or whatever." It's like, "I'm. sad because I lost something very. important to me.". And your friends need to realize that. instead of just demonizing the other. person. Um they need to realize like you. lost something really valuable in your. daily life, in the present, in the. future, part of your past, all of that. is gone now. So, that's really hard. I think the.

other part of of then dealing with the. grief is letting yourself feel it. Cuz it's real, no matter what people. tell you. It's real. Um and the other. part is the story that you're telling. yourself about it is really important. So, you might be telling yourself a. story of the other person's terrible. That might feel good in the moment. It. might be something like, "I'm bad." You. know, like, "I'm not good enough. If I. were only something else, this person. would love me more. I'm not lovable. Or. I'll never find anyone.". Right? Those are not helpful stories cuz.

it's not true. It's You were not. compatible with this person for whatever. reason, even though you thought you. were. If the other person doesn't feel. you're the right person for them, you're. automatically incompatible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? You can't You. can't make it so that, "Well, they just. don't see it.". So, we aren't compatible because the. other person doesn't want to be with me. So many times I'll hear, you know, someone even without a breakup, like. someone will be dating someone and the. person isn't really invested in the. relationship maybe in the way that they.

would like them to. And the person. sitting on my couch will say, "But we're. so compatible. We're so perfect for each. other. That person just has intimacy. issues and I could just change them.". Even if the breakup was about you think. the person had intimacy issues, it. doesn't really matter. The point is they. aren't able to be with you, so you are. not compatible. Mhm. And so that is I. think very comforting to know like we. are just not compatible even though it. hurts a lot. We're not compatible and I. have to sit with the pain of. I need to know that we were not. compatible and that's not going to jade.

me in other relationships. And I think that's the important thing. So many times we get into a new. relationship after that and we punish. the new person for something the old. person did. Right? Like the old the old person. wasn't truthful with me. So I'm going to. like check your phone all the time. No. Don't don't like put someone in jail for. a crime they didn't commit. So you've got to really like know what. are the wounds from this relationship, what am I learning from this? What does.

this teach me about me, about the other. person? And then how do I move into a. new relationship with hope and with. caution? And hold holding both hope and caution. Fantastic. Lori, the reason why I love. talking to you about this is you're. doing this all the time, whether it's in. your private practice, whether it's on. Dear Therapists, or whether it's through. your books. And if you've been listening. or watching today everyone, I hope that. you go and grab a copy of Maybe You. Should Talk to Someone, The Journal, 52. weekly sessions to transform your life.

by Lori Gottlieb. And as I said, you can. subscribe to her podcast. And if you. haven't read Maybe You Should Talk to. Someone, make sure you go and grab that book as. well. Lori, thank you so much for. joining us on On Purpose. pleasure. we got to spend this time together today. and answer some of our audiences'. questions and challenges. And I'm hoping. that all of you who had yours answered, or maybe even if you didn't send. something in, but you felt heard and you. felt seen and you felt understood. because so much of what we're all going. through is so intertwined. And so thank.

you to everyone who is brave enough, courageous enough to share your stories. And Lori, thank you for answering them. so expertly. Oh, thank you so much for. having me. I always love having these. conversations with you. Thank you, Lori. If you love this episode, you'll love my. interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on. understanding your trauma and how to. heal emotional wounds to start moving on. from the past. Everything in nature. grows only where it's vulnerable. So a. tree doesn't grow where it's hard and. thick, does it? It grows where it's soft. and green and vulnerable.