WORLD LEADING THERAPIST Answers Relationship Questions Most People Are Afraid to Ask | Lori Gottlieb

We have this saying, we bury our. unfinished business. We date our. unfinished business, too. If you're not. doing the work, you're going to be. behind. Therapist, best-selling author, Lori Gottlieb. What would you say to. someone who's saying, "I have to kind of. compromise and make sure this is the one. because I have to get to that point. because I want to be in a relationship. I'm going to get the worst pick of the. bunch because I'm 35 years old and I. haven't found someone." If you are not. in a place where you want to be with a. relationship, you have to understand. why. Am I behind for being single at 28?

The number one health and wellness. podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The. one, the only, Jay Shetty. Lori, it's great to have you back. It's so great to be here, Jay. Honestly, every time you come in here. and we have these conversations, they. just go crazy viral online. People love. your advice, they love your insight, they always want you back. And I'm so. thankful to you that you always choose. to come back. So, it means a lot to me. that you're back here with me. Well, thank you so much for having me back.

We've done what we did last time because. people loved it so much. We've gone out. to our audience, gone out to our. community, I've even reached out to some. friends, and I've crowdsourced all of. their challenges, all of their issues, all of their real-life experiences that. they're going through. And some of these. people don't have access to therapists, some of these people maybe can't afford. it, some of these people maybe even have. therapists but are still struggling. trying to figure it out. And so, I love. the fact that we can use you as our.

community therapist and learn from you. So, I want to dive straight in. Sure. One of the biggest questions I'm hearing. and getting from people in my community. and audience is am I behind for being. single at 28? Mhm. You know, it's so interesting because I. think that we tend to compare ourselves. so much to other people, especially with. social media. You know, we look at, you. know, what is everybody else doing at my. age? What is What is the right thing? And you are exactly where you need to be. if you are doing the work. If you're not.

doing the work, you're going to be. behind. And what I mean by doing the. work is. if you are not in a place where you want. to be with a relationship, you have to. understand why. So, are you examining. what has not worked yet? Why if I if I. am single and I don't want to be single, what can I be doing differently? And so. I think that's the important work. So, you're not behind at all. In fact, you're probably ahead of people who are. in relationships who have not done the. work and maybe aren't in the right. relationship or are in a relationship.

that's not going to last or isn't going. well. I feel like that's such a hard. thing to face, right? Because we think. the problem is external to us. And what you're saying is well, actually. the work needs to be done internally. And so often we're trying to solve and. shift and construct what's happening. around of us rather than looking inward. Why do you think that is? Why is it that. we struggle to actually do the work? What does that look like? I think it's. so much easier when we talk to our. friends. And you know, I've talked about.

the difference between idiot compassion. and wise compassion before. Idiot. compassion is you say to your friend, "Look what happened on this date." or. "Look what happened with this person.". and they say, "Yeah, you're right. They're wrong." and we never learn or. grow from that. Right? Because yes, there might be. something that the other person did, but. also what was your role in that. interaction? A relationship is all about. relating. So, what was your role in the. dance that you're doing with this. person? And what you get in therapy is. you get wise compassion where we hold up.

a mirror to you and we help you to see. something about you know, what your role. is. Maybe something you haven't been. willing or able to see, but that's so. important so you don't repeat. these situations where you're in this. pattern and then you wonder, "Why do I. keep ending up with a person who doesn't. listen to me?" or a person where I don't. feel seen or I can't be myself, or where. we have a lot of volatility, or where. this person's really avoidant. Why am I. always with people who avoid? Or what.

makes me avoid? And I don't talk to the. person about what I want or what I need. So, that's the work that's really. important. So, you're not behind if. you're single at 28. It's part of the. process. If you're doing the work, you're much closer than you've ever been. to finding the person that you want to. be with. I'm so glad you said that. I. remember talking about it in my. book that I wrote called Eight Rules of. Love, and it was this idea of. relationship karma. And I was using the. concept of karma from the Eastern. traditions to understand that karma is.

every action has a reaction. And it was, can you pinpoint what action you've. taken in order to end up in the same. experience with a different person? So, as you were saying that, whether you. keep attracting an avoidant person, you. keep attracting someone who doesn't. listen to you, you keep attracting. someone who is interested for a month, but then disconnects, or whatever it may. be. And it's like, where what action. have you taken in your choice, in your. curation of this individual, in your. approach to this individual, that is.

potentially led to that? Absolutely. That's that's so spot on. You know, we. have this saying, we marry our. unfinished business. We date our. unfinished business, too. So, if you, let's say, earlier in your life, you. were around someone who, you know, was. neglectful. Somebody who drank too much. Somebody who lost their temper. Um. somebody who wasn't honest. Somebody who. wasn't reliable. We think when we're. dating as adults, like, I want the. opposite of that. I want someone where I. feel safe, secure, there's trust. But.

what happens is, unconsciously, again, if we haven't done the work, our. unfinished business, we actually our. unconscious is, oh, you look familiar. Come closer. So, on the surface, they. don't look like that person. But then. when you get to know them, you're a. month in, you're 3 months in, you're 6. months in, you think, "Wow, that person. reminds me of someone. This person feels. so familiar, and that's why I was drawn. to this person." It turns out this. person is very much like what I grew up. with. Is very much like the person who.

hurt me growing up. So, if you do the. work, you're able to see, "Oh, that. person, I see why I'm drawn to them, but. I'm not drawn to them in a healthy way.". And then if you do even more work, you're not even drawn to those people. anymore. Now, you're drawn to healthy. people, stable people, flexible people, emotionally generous people, people. whose values align with yours. That's. who you're drawn to. So, you have to do. the work. Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad. that you've made that the reminder, because I think often we validate and.

make people feel like it's okay that. they're single, and I think you are. doing that, but I think this is a step. further, which is like. you are behind if you're not actually. learning from the experiences that got. you here, and you're not actually. refining it. Another pressure that I. feel that mounts on people as time goes. on. It's so fascinating to me that we're. in 2024. We hope that we're living in a. society that is letting go of timelines, that's letting go of gender roles, that's letting go of these boundaries.

and limits that are placed on us because. of what age we are and what gender we. are and and everything else. But I find. that internally, we all actually still. carry a lot of those pressures. And. another big question for our community. was, "If I do get into a relationship in. my early 30s, do I now have to rush. things? Like, do I Often what I heard. was people were saying, "I feel like I. have to feel like this person is the one. because I'm running out of time, and I. have this fear that the pool is getting.

so much smaller as I get into my early. 30s that I'm going to have the worst. pick because no good people are going to. be left." Now, we know that all of these. things are not factually true. They're. not data-backed. Like these are ideas, but these are the kind of thoughts that. I'm hearing from people who are entering. that space. What would you say to. someone who's saying, "Lori, I feel I. have to rush things. I have to kind of. compromise and make sure this is the one. because I have to get to that point. because I want to be in a relationship.".

And actually, I fear that I'm going to. get the worst pick of the bunch because. I'm 35 years old and I haven't found. someone. We literally just had someone. like this on the podcast and she felt. like, "I have to decide right away if. this is the person. and if there's any issues here, I have. to leave right away." As opposed to. understanding that if she doesn't. understand what these issues are about, she will just repeat that in the next. relationship. I mean, these were not,

you know, there's certain kinds of. issues that are red flags. These were. not red flag issues. These were normal. relational types of things, communication types of things. And what. we told her was, "You need to slow down. in order to save time." And it sounds. counterintuitive cuz people think, "Wait. a minute, I need to hurry up in order to. save time. I don't want to waste time.". But you need to slow down so that you. can say, "What is right in front of me. right now?" If I put that kind of. pressure on myself, I'm going to make. decisions for all kinds of the wrong. reasons. So, I'm going to make them.

because, you know, we talk about the. difference between sort of the head and. the heart. You're going to make head. decisions instead of heart decisions. You need both. My son taught me this, actually. He was. saying, "I've been making too many head. decisions and I need to make more heart. decisions." And it's about how do you. find the balance between those two. things. So, what we told her, this woman. on the podcast, was we said, "Why don't. the two of you go to therapy for, let's. say, you put a time limit on it. We're. going to go for 6 months." And she said, "6 months? I don't have 6 months to.

waste." And I said, "It's not going to. be a waste. No matter whether you stay. in this relationship or you go to a. different relationship, you're going to. learn so much about yourself in. relationship that you can't learn if. you're not in a relationship because you. need to be able to have these. interactions to understand what they. trigger in you, what they bring up in. you. And you can't do that in isolation. So many people say, "I need to. completely understand myself before I. can go and date." And I say, "You're. going to learn so much about yourself.". You want the best tutorial on who you.

are and your operating instructions and. what makes you tick? Get in a. relationship with somebody. You will be. pushed and challenged in ways that you. aren't challenged when it's just you. sitting there thinking. So we said to. her, "Go to couples therapy for 6 months. and then you will learn so much about. yourself and you will know so much more. about whether you two are the right. combination or the right couple." And so. we do follow-ups. We do year follow-ups. and she came back a year later and she. said, "I was going to leave this person. and I am so glad that I didn't because I.

learned that some of this was me. And I. didn't have the maturity. I didn't. understand a lot of things and I grew so. much and I am so in love with this. person and I would have left because I. was panicked. Now it could have ended up the other way. too that she left which would have also. been good if it wasn't the right person. and then she would have found the right. person because of the work that she did. So I would say to these people who feel. like I have to hurry, I have to know. right away, relax, slow down, give yourself a.

timeline. Don't stay in that. relationship for 5 years and and be. ambivalent about what you want to do. But slow down, give yourself a year of. doing the work with this person. And then you will know so much more. about yourself. You want someone who's. real. You want someone who's authentic, who's genuine. And maybe the person. who's a great first dater is not a great. partner. We forget that love is not some. kind of. airy feeling, right? But love in the. day-to-day is a verb. How can I be.

loving to another person? How is someone. being loving as a verb to me? It's a. very performative action going on a. first date, but when people feel more. comfortable and they can be more. themselves, you feel like you can be. more yourself, they feel like they can, and you see the real person, and they. can become very attractive to you. Some. people are good for you now, Mhm. and some people may become good for. you forever, but this idea that if. someone's good for me now and they're.

not forever, then I don't want them now, isn't the healthiest idea because the. growth you might make with this person. who may not be your forever person could. be so powerful and useful in your. forever relationship, and you won't know. that until you're actually getting to. know them. I had a friend recently who. went through that scenario where. they felt that this individual they were. with. was helping them grow, helping them. understand themselves, they were doing. the same back, and they realized during. the course of that relationship that.

this wasn't the one that was going to be. the the marriage and the the long-term. commitment, but they feel like they both. grew so much as individuals. And you constantly in this conversation. so far, you've talked about doing the. deep work on your own, you've talked. about working with that person. What's really interesting is that. after all this time, and no matter how. many books we read, and no matter how. many podcasts we listen to, there's. still this belief that when we meet the. person, it'll be easy, Mhm. it'll be. simple, and everything will just make.

sense. I feel like a lot of people also. who found love in a magical way will say. things like, "When you know, you know, and you just feel it." And then people. feel like they have to find that. feeling, and that love should be easy. and simple and flow. I'm assuming from what you're saying so. far that it's not really the only way, it can require work, it it does require. work. I've been with my wife for 11. years now and I can honestly say that. some parts have been really easy and.

some parts have required work and I. believe we work on it consistently and. that's why it becomes easier then it. would become harder. But I feel like. there's this. Disney magic belief we still all carry. so deep rooted in us that love should be. easy. What would you say to someone who. is carrying that experience or that. vision of love in their heart and mind? Right. Well, first of all, you know, when we look at attachment styles, if. you have a secure attachment, sometimes. it is easier for you to know whether.

this person is going to be someone you. want to pursue long term. Um, but even. then things will come up. But also many. of us are not securely attached meaning. that we had inconsistent caregivers or. we had, you know, parents do their best. But parents are also imperfect, parents. have their own parents and they have. their own histories which makes them. parent in a certain way. So, there are. certain ways in which we didn't get. parented the way we wanted to get. parented and we still we come into.

relationships maybe we don't trust. And. then we think, oh, I can't trust that. person, but it's really not about the. other person, they're completely. trustworthy, but you just don't trust. the world. You don't trust the universe. You don't even maybe trust yourself. So, those people maybe feel like, well, this is really hard because I don't. really trust this person, but they're. not looking at maybe it's hard because. you are bringing something into this. Mhm. Right? So, the magic might come. might be there, but you have to be able. to learn how to trust and maybe at the.

beginning of that relationship it's. going to be a little bit hard for you. So, it's not going to look like the. Disney, the romantic comedies that we. all see. Mhm. But I think the other. thing is there's a study that I love. that I think more people should know. about which is that they did this. longitudinal study so that means they. followed people over 20 years and they. checked in every 5 years and they. started with the first date. When you. met this person, you write down your. impressions. And some people said, you. know, "Oh, this person there's so much. magic, there's so much chemistry." And. some people said, "It was fine. Yeah,

I'd probably see this person again, but. nothing great." Right? And then they. followed them every 5 years. And what. they found after 20 years was that the. people who were happily married to each. other. did change their story. So, at the time. they had said like, "Yeah, I'm not. really sure. Nice person. No. butterflies, no spark." They said, "Oh, I knew right away." They changed the. story because now the story is is. filtered through the way their marriage. is now. People who were unhappy, who who. like got divorced or were in uh still.

married, but were unhappy, you know, said things like, "Oh, there was no. chemistry. There was never any. chemistry. I knew right away." Even. though at the time they said, "Magic.". Right? That's so good. So, I think it's so important for people. to realize that don't listen to what. your friends say about how they met. because it's going to be filtered. through how they feel about each other. right now. That is I'm so glad you. raised that. That is such. uh that's such a great insight. And I I. wish if if everyone's listening right. now, please please please like let that.

deeply connect with your heart and head. because I think that's one of the. reasons we all make mistakes. We're. either forcing ourselves to look for the. perfection in the moment. And like you. said, some of the best relationships. start by it's fine, it's okay, I'm not. sure. And also to not over-amplify that. first meeting. I think we put so much. pressure on the first date, the first. kiss, the first you know, first time of. being intimate with someone, the first. the first of everything is like such a. So weighted. So weighted, right? Yes. Unfairly. Yes. Yes. And what.

happened is people will go on a date. And so, I see this in therapy all the. time. People will come in and they'll. say, "I went on a date with this person. Nice person. I don't know. I just didn't feel that. intensity. I just didn't I don't know. I. didn't feel this romantic connection. with this person." And I'll say, "How. did you feel about yourself on this. date?" "I felt good. I felt really. comfortable. I felt like myself.". Right? Did you have a good time? Yeah. Did you feel like this was a fun person. to be around? Yeah. Well, why not go on a second date?

Why not spend another hour with this. person just to see what it feels like to. sit with this person again. And what. happens is sometimes, not always, sometimes you you sit with this person. enough and then all of a sudden you're. like, "Oh, they're really cute. I didn't. see that before. Or they're really. funny. They were kind of nervous on the. first date." Because it's a first date. It's like a job interview. Right? So, people are performing. It's a very. performative action going on a first. date. But when people feel more. comfortable and they can be more.

themselves, you feel like you can be. more yourself. They feel like they can. And you see the real person. And they. can become very attractive to you. So, this doesn't always happen, but it. happens enough that I think that what. happens is we we feel like there's this. abundance that because of dating apps, we feel like if I don't feel like this. person is fabulous, a 10, everything. that I've imagined on that first 45. minutes or an hour that I'm meeting them. in this weird coffee place in this weird. environment cuz we're strangers. We're.

both nervous. We're both trying to. impress each other. We both have these. fantasies that we're bringing and the. other person's letting down my fantasy. You know, what a weird way to meet. someone. Mhm. And then they think, "Okay, well, there's 10 other people on. this app that I can swipe on and they'll. meet my fantasy." Except they probably. won't either. Or they might. Here's the. danger. They might on that first date, but then they're locking into some. fantasy that you have. But then when you. really get to know them, you find out, "Oh, I don't really connect with this.

person. Or this person's kind of. superficial. Or this person's great at. first dates." Cuz people who are great. at first dates can be really charming. But that doesn't mean that that's what. you want in a partner. You want someone. who's real. You want someone who's. authentic, who's genuine. And maybe the. person who's a great first dater is not. a great partner. Mhm. Absolutely. I. mean, Lori, you just. did this genius therapy question thing. there that I want people to notice. I. think you're so right that after a first.

date, the number one thing we focus on. is how did I feel about them? And our. friends will ask us, "What did you think. of them?". And you just shifted that question that. you asked one of your patients, the. question being, "How did you feel about. yourself?". Yes. And I think that's so powerful because. you're so right that if you're only. looking at the other person and making. your assumptions and judgments on. whether they're interesting, whether. they're exciting, whether they're. someone who can entertain you, rather. than going, "How did I feel about. myself?" And it was so interesting, I.

was just saying to one of my friends, I. was saying that when do you feel. peaceful around someone? And I was. saying, "Peaceful around someone usually. isn't exciting. It's usually not. exhilarating, but you feel a sense of. calm when you're around them. They they. kind of relax your nervous system a. little bit." And so when you ask the. question, "How did I feel about myself?". and you're like, "I felt natural. I felt. comfortable. I actually felt really good." All of a. sudden you're like, "Oh, I didn't feel. butterflies and I wasn't constantly. nervous and I wasn't trying to impress. them." So this is actually a much.

healthier space to live in. So I love. that reframe of after a first date, not. asking yourself, "What did I think of. them? Are they interesting? Are they the. one?" "How did I feel about myself?" I. think that's a brilliant brilliant note. Yeah, and how we feel about ourselves. often comes from the person on that date. is really listening to you and is really. interested. So the person who can. entertain you on a first date might be. really fun, but I don't think that you. want an entertainer. I think what you want is you want. someone you can actually have some kind. of connection with and someone who knows.

how to listen and someone who's. genuinely curious about you and not just. trying to impress you is going to make a. much better long-term partner. I think. Lori, we we're uncovering something. really interesting here. It's like. I feel like we don't know what human. connection is. Right. like we don't know what human love is. Like I Like what we're getting to here. it's like. because it is so hard to define, I. guess, but there's a sense of we don't. know what healthy connection,

communication looks like because chances. are we haven't seen it at home. We. haven't seen it around us. We haven't. seen it in the media. So, there's a. sense of not being able to mirror or not. being able to reflect something that. embodies that deep, profound experience. of love. So, when you're saying you're. not looking at someone who's giving you. the ability to feel listened, heard, seen. Like what What is, from all of. your experience and everything you've. read, you've done this for decades now?

Like What have you seen are the core. values of human connection that we. should be aspiring for in a healthy. relationship? Can we even define those? We forget that love is not some kind of. airy feeling, right? Love is You know, people say that people in love are. actually like people on drugs. It's the. same dopamine reaction. And so, you're. not really thinking straight. So, that. might feel like infatuation, that feels.

really good. And yes, that's a component. of feeling really connected and feeling. love, but love in the day-to-day is a. verb. How can I be loving to another. person? How is someone being loving as a. verb to me? And so, I remember this struck me so. much when I had a couple and the woman. in the couple said to her husband, "You. know what three words I really want to. hear?" And he immediately said, "I love. you. You want to hear I love you more.". And she said, "No. I know you love me. I.

want to hear I understand you. And that to her was love, right? I know. that you say you love me. I want you to. show me you love me because I want to. feel understood by you and I want to. understand you. And I think so much what we don't do in. a loving relationship is we don't take. the time to either understand ourselves. and communicate that or understand the. other person. It really takes an act of. love. It's such a great point and and.

even hearing you say that, I'm like it. resonates so strongly with how I see. love and how much I see the conflicts. that exist in relationships being. because people love each other but they. don't understand each other. They don't. and they're not curious. Right? So they feel like if you don't. understand me, then you know, you don't. love me. If you they do this. If you. loved me, you would X. As opposed to let me tell you how I'm.

feeling right now. Let me explain this. to you because the truth is if they. understood you, they would do X, probably. But it's not if they love you. It has nothing to do with if they love. you, they would do X. Yeah, that's so. powerful. That that's so true. It's. resonating so strongly with me, too, and. that idea of we think that if I say I. love you, that means I understand you. Yes. But the person on the other side is. saying, "No, I get that you love me, but. you're not understanding me. You're not.

hearing me. You're not seeing me." And I. often think that we think love makes up. for a lack of understanding, but love. can't. Love can't complete a lack of. understanding. Love can't complete the. fact that you haven't really listened to. what the other person is saying because. love can often be this overarching. emotion as opposed to what you're. saying, this active verb that's being. expressed. And so, I think that's a. great takeaway for people is is someone. actually trying to understand you? And I.

think we have this intuitive feeling. that. if someone completes our sentences on. the first day or they like the same. things we like, then they must. understand us. Right? We're talking. about our favorite foods and we both. agree that Italian cuisine is our. favorite food or we both agree that we. love comedy movies and we love we almost. we feel understood. Mhm. And I feel like both people in that. moment of feeling understood stop trying. to understand and be understood. Does.

that make sense? What you're talking. about is having things in common, which. is very different from what you're. coming into the relationship with. So, you can have a lot of interest in. common. You might both like sushi and. rollerblading and these kinds of movies. and these kinds of TV shows and this. kind of cuisine, right? And you say, "We. have so much in common. We love the same. music. We, you know, we read the same. things." That's what you have in common. That doesn't mean that you understand. the person's operating instructions. And. what I mean by that is when you get.

anything, a new car, um you know, it comes with a manual. And. it says like, "This is how this car. operates." And it's different from your. last car. So, just because it's a car. doesn't mean it operates in the same. way. Like, this button is going to be. over here and if you want to control. this, it's going to be over here. And it. doesn't like when you do this and it. likes when you do this, right? That's. what the manual says. We need that for. our people. We need to know What is. there What are their operating. instructions? And we assume that because. we have all this in common, that that.

person is going to know my operating. instructions and I'm going to know that. person's operating instructions. But we. have to share our operating instructions. with the other person. Just because you. like to be lit When you want to come to. me with something and you just want to. vent, right? I actually want feedback. That doesn't mean that we have the same. way of wanting to be listened to. When. you are feeling sad, you do this. When. I'm feeling sad, I need this. Those are different things. When I'm. angry, I need to talk about it right.

away. When you're angry, you need a walk. around the block. Oh. That's really good information. I didn't. read your manual. Tell me more. So, we have to be really curious about. Tell me your operating instructions. And. we learn that just by experiencing the. other person and seeing that while we. have a lot in common and we connect, they're actually separate and apart from. us. They're a different person. Yeah. And that's so important. So, how is How. can we be loving? What is love? Love is. saying, "I'm taking the time to.

understand your operating instructions.". That's so well put. And I think we. struggle with that so much because we. don't have enough self-awareness of our. own operating instructions. And then we. have this. warped view that love means you should. be able to understand and read the in. between the lines. And none of us read. the operating instructions for our. devices today. So, we're also not. reading between the lines. And the other. person sitting there going, "Well, if. you love me, you'd know all of this. How.

can you not know after 10 years that I. love celebrating my birthday or. anniversaries are really important to. me." And And it's fascinating to me that. we don't want to help people help us. Right. So, what we do, using the. birthday example, is somebody will say, you know, to their partner, "What would. you like to do for your birthday?" And. they say, "Oh, it's no big deal." But, they really actually want something and. they think, "My partner should know that. when I say it's no big deal, don't worry. about it." And then the partner says, "Oh, we're just going to like do a quiet. dinner." When they wanted a big party,

that their partner doesn't get them at. all. How did their partner know that no. big deal actually meant, "I love big. parties." How do you not notice after. being together for 3 years that I love. being at big parties? So, you should. have known that my no big deal meant I. love big parties. Yeah. But, why can't. we just communicate our desires? Why. does that take away from the magic? We. think if I have to explain it, there's. no chemistry between us. You should just. know. But we should be able to say, "Hey, I would love a big party. I love.

celebrating in the company of all of my. people and all of my friends." What a. relief for your partner to know I can. please my partner and give my partner. exactly what my partner wants because. now I know. Yeah. That doesn't take away from the. chemistry or the magic or the connection. between you. That enhances the. connection. I agree. I agree. A few. years ago, me and my wife after never. knowing what to do for each other's. birthdays and always getting it wrong, we set that pact with each other where.

we're like, "We're just going to tell. each other. three to four months in advance what. we'd like to do for our birthdays." Her. birthday's in July, it just actually. went two days ago, and then my. birthday's in September, and we're just. like, "We're just going to tell each. other what we want, what kind of party. we want, what we want." So, this year. she she was thinking about doing. something, she was like, "I want to do. it." And then she was like, "No, actually I just want to do nothing." And. she's generally I over the years I. always did extravagant things because I. like extravagant things, and realized I. was giving her the birthday party I. wanted.

Yes. And and she was giving me the. birthday party she wanted. And so that's. why we just started telling each other. And so she said to me, she was like, "I. just want to do something really small.". That's what we did, it was beautiful. And then she was telling me, "What do. you want?" I was like, "I just want to. do something with just me and you." I. was like, "I whatever it is, as long as. it's just me and you, I'm I'm open to. it." And I think it's become so much. more fun being able to not have to live. in this anxiety and anticipation of do. they understand me, have I dropped. enough hints, do they get the magic, and. then feeling disappointed. Or even. feeling like they got it all, but.

oh, it's because I gave them all the. notes anyway. And so you're so right. that we've we've removed the magic. because we've shared what we want. Right. And and it's so funny what you. said, this whole thing about if I give. them the notes, that somehow it's not. special anymore. As opposed to this. person took the time to understand. exactly what I want and to make my day. the magical day that I want it to be. That's the magic. This person cares. enough to give you exactly what you. want.

Mhm. But we don't give them credit for. that. We actually give them demerits for. that. Yeah, yeah. And we give ourselves credit. for it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no. And and and you're so right. Like, I think it comes with so many. things that we think asking for help or. telling people what we actually need. or having a request is a weakness. We. see it as a sign of a weak relationship. When actually it's the sign of strong. self-awareness and a strong relationship. that you have the ability to share your. desires, your needs, your interests, and.

the other person has the ability to. comprehend and take action on them. That. is actually a healthy long-term. relationship. And yeah, I hope I hope. that this conversation can encourage. people if you're in a relationship, even. if you're starting out in one, these are. great habits to set early on rather than. wasting three to five years making. mistakes, trying to figure it out, carrying that baggage, and then figuring. it out. Right. And the setting the early on is. the really important part because. relationships are like cement. If you,

you know, be in the beginning, everyone's trying to be the ambassador. of themselves. So, they think, oh, I. don't want to ask for too much or I. didn't really like that the person's. always late, but I'll deal with that. later. But it really frustrates you. And. so then, you know, 6 months, a year into. the relationship, you just blow up and. you say, "How come you're always late? I. don't like that you're always late." And. the person's like, "This never bothered. you before. I don't understand." Okay, thank you for telling me, but you're so. upset about it at that point. Or the. person doesn't call when they say they. will or whatever it is, it's really.

important because now the cement has. dried and now you have to, you know, get. a get a jackhammer out there and bring. up the cement. If you do it when the. cement is wet and you say, you know, after the first couple times, you know. what? When you're late, I feel like you. don't prioritize us getting together at. this time or you don't prioritize me. I. would really appreciate it if you could. come on time. And now you get to see as. the cement is drying, can this person. respond to that? Mhm. Right? And that's. really important to know because why do.

you want to spend a long time with this. person if they're never going to be able. to respond to it? Or why do you want to. be frustrated for all this time when you. could have just told them early on and. now this person is used to being late. They don't know it's a problem. It's. going to take a while for them to. reverse their pattern. Whereas if they. know in the beginning this is really. important, they're going to reverse. their pattern or they're not and that's. good information for you. The fact that. people don't talk about whether they. want to get married before a proposal. happens is insane to me. A boundary is. something you set with yourself. Cut.

them off. They're terrible. Because they. didn't respect your boundary. They can't. respect your boundaries. Did you give. them an opportunity to respect your. boundaries and did you respect your own. boundary? All of our behavior, by the. way, is motivated by we want to be. loved. We really do and sometimes we do. it in a way that makes people not want. to love us and we don't realize that. we're pushing people away with our. behavior, but at the core we are doing. it because we want to be liked. We want. to be loved. A lot of the reason why we.

don't say something in the beginning or. in the early stages is either. we want to give the other person grace. We don't want to be disliked for giving. feedback and we want to be liked. It can. be well-intentioned of maybe they'll. change, maybe they'll notice, but. actually as you said, all we're doing is. the problem's getting bigger and bigger. and bigger for us. It's becoming less. and less big for that individual and so. now the distance between you and that. person when you share that problem is so.

far and wide because they've started to. devalue being on time because you don't. seem to care and you've started. overvalue being on time and so now. you're at two opposite ends of the. spectrum and now you can't hear each. other because you're so far away from. each other and I find that so. interesting that. when you try to avoid problems. Mhm. and the other person becomes more and. more unaware, you just become further. apart so that then when you raise the. problem, they can't hear you because. you're so far away from each other.

Right, because then it becomes blame. So. if at the beginning you say, you know, when you come late, I feel like you're. not prioritizing me, that person might, cuz you said it calmly, that person. might say, "Oh, well, the reason is I. really was prioritizing you. I know you. like to eat early, so I was trying to. leave work early for you, but I see that. that's not working. So what can we do. because you like to eat early, it's hard. for me to leave work at that time, so I. agreed to it, but then I'm never on. time." And then you've got a problem you. can work through together. Oh, maybe we.

can just meet half an hour later from. now on and now you're both happy. Yeah. Right? But if you do it later, it's kind. of like, "Well, you never leave work for. me." Well, I didn't know I was leaving. early for, you know, it just becomes a. fight. Yeah. I wish what I'm hearing is and and. I think about this all the time when I'm. working with coaching clients or talking. to friends or our community is just I. wish and hope for everyone listening. that we could be more curious about the. context of people's decisions and. choices rather than just the choice or.

decision in isolation. So we see someone. being late as they're just late rather. than the context which you just so. beautifully described which could be. anything from I can't leave work early. through to whatever else it may be and. it's almost like we see those as excuses. rather than as context. Yes. If we start recognizing that every. person you're looking at has a whole. history of relationships. and experiences and background and your.

job in order to be with someone is to. research that and to discover that and. understand how those points connect and. dots connect and then all of a sudden. you're looking at a real human being who. has complexities and has layers as. opposed to this idea of they chose to be. late because they disrespected me when. it's not really about you potentially. Right. You see it as they're lazy, they're disrespectful and we don't. realize we don't think we like we our. context becomes the whole story.

You know, I always say we're unreliable. narrators because because we're telling. the story through our particular lens. but we're not saying I will say to. people in therapy if the other person. were here and they were telling their. version of the story, what would it be? And all of a sudden the story becomes so. much more expansive. There's the. context. And that makes the person not a villain. but oh, I feel I understand that. I can. see I have compassion in fact for why. they made that decision or at least I.

understand why they made that decision. A lot of what Lori you're saying and and. I agree with and I also. am sharing is this sense of taking. accountability, taking responsibility. but a lot of the time a lot of therapy. speak on social media especially has. made it feel like we're always the. victim and everyone else is the problem. and so when we use words like. gaslighting and. uh you know, boundary setting and and. whatever else it may be a lot of that. language starts to make it feel like. well, I'm perfect and the other person.

was the issue but you're actually you. know, and and I'm I'm totally with you. on that we're flipping that and going. well, no, let's really look at. how we can look at things differently. and how we can change how we behave. Walk me through that balance and and how. you encourage people to make sense of. both because it's the I saying is as old. as it goes like you know, takes two to. tango it takes two like you know, it's. always going to take two. And so, but but we we try and make it that it. has to be one of the other. So, how do. we how do we balance that, reconcile. that in a healthy way? Yeah, you know, I.

think it's great that people are talking. more about mental health on social. media. What drives me absolutely bananas. is how people use words like, you were. saying, boundaries, gaslighting, narcissism. If you looked at social. media, you'd think like 80% of the. population are narcissists. Yes. 80% of the population is being. gaslit. Um 80% of the population has no. one who will respect their boundaries. And so, these terms are being misused, and what happens is you lose the fact of. what you're talking about, which is that. we're all doing a dance in a.

relationship. There's a dance going on. And if you change your dance steps, the. other person either has to change their. dance steps, too, because they can't. dance with you otherwise, or they'll. just get off the dance floor. That's. really good to know. So, we don't think. about what dance steps can I change? We. think, oh, they did this, that's it. And. they're mislabeling people. Someone is. not a narcissist if they didn't see what. your need was, or they talk a lot about. themselves. There's a reason that that's. happening. You need to be curious about. that. Narcissistic personality disorder.

is very rare. So, not everybody is a. narcissist. Gaslighting. Gaslighting is. not, I have a different opinion from. you. Gaslighting is making someone feel. like they're crazy for feeling how. they're feeling. Those are very. different things. So, someone can feel. differently about the same experience. This happens with couples all the time. They're not gaslighting each other. They. have different feelings about the same. experience. They're not This is not. gaslighting. But people on social media. will say, well, I said that I felt this.

about this experience. I'm being gaslit. cuz my partner doesn't agree with my. feelings. You don't have to agree, you. don't have to have the same feelings, you can just notice that the person has. those feelings, and that you might have. different feelings. That's okay. So, what I think is important about this. is that, you know, the boundaries is a. really great example of this. People. say, "Well, this person doesn't, you. know, we have to set these very rigid. boundaries." Well, a boundary is. something you set with yourself. So, a. boundary is a request that you make to. somebody else. And this is why we see so.

many people say on social media, "I'm. going to cut this person off." And. everyone says, "Great, cut them off. They're terrible because they didn't. respect your boundary. They can't. respect your boundaries." Did you give. them an opportunity to respect your. boundaries? And did you respect your own. boundary? So, an example might be let's. say that your mother is always asking. about when you're going to be in a. relationship, right? And are you dating. anyone? What's happening? And that just. ruins your time together. You can say, "You know what, Mom, I will let you know.

if there's someone important in my life, but in the meantime, it really makes it. hard to be around you when you're asking. about something that you know is very. stressful for me. So, if you ask about. that, I'm going to end the visit or I'm. going to end the phone call." Very calm. Okay. So, then next time you get. together with your mom, she's really. good for the first half hour, and then. she's like, "Oh, and is there anyone. that you're dating?" Mom, remember I. don't have a good time with you when. that comes up. I'm going to leave, but I. really look forward to getting together. with you another time when we can talk. about something else. "Oh, no, I'm so.

sorry. I'm so sorry." No, Mom, I'm going. to leave, but next time, right? Next. time your mom, maybe she remembers and. it's like an hour later and she's like, "Oh, but are you Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry." Oh, Mom, great. I'm going to go. now, right? And so, you realize like is. this person able to respect your. boundary? But the main thing is you. respected yours. You said, "I'm going to. leave if you ask that question." And. then over time, and you have to be. consistent. If sometimes you say, "Oh, it's okay, Mom, I understand." No, because she's just going to keep doing.

it. So, if you're consistent with. yourself, you have to keep your own. boundary. This isn't her fault. This is. about you. And if you are not going to. value your boundary enough to keep it. every time, that's on you. And so, if. you keep doing that and your mom. eventually probably will stop cuz she. knows that she wants to have a. conversation with you or have an outing. with you, she'll probably stop asking. you about it. But, if she doesn't, you've learned that she cannot do that. So, I'm going to keep with my boundary. and maybe I'm going to get together with. her less or I'm still going to leave.

every time she brings that up, right? So, it's about what you're going to do. So, it's not that, you know, nobody can. keep your boundaries. It's about I've. set something that I think is reasonable. and I'm going to see what the other. person is capable of. And so, when. people say, "I'm going to be I'm going. to cut this person off.". Well, are you really? Like, you know, or can. you set a boundary that works for you so. that you can have the good parts of the. relationship and not the parts that are. problematic? The way we have to think about it is. that people are probably going to keep.

breaking your boundaries. Are you going. to keep them in that situation, right? That's what's happening there. It's like. a boundary set for you to protect you. from yourself. Yes. From giving in to a scenario in a. situation which you can't control, but. we think a boundary is almost an order. or a law that other people have to. follow. And the truth is, you can't. control them. Like, they're going to act. how they're going to act and you've got. to set a boundary where you know how to. behave and you know how to act. One of. I'm so glad that you talked about your.

feelings around how therapy speak is. is healthy, it's important for people to. have these conversations, but how. certain words are being misused and bent. online because I I do think that it. creates exactly what you said, a culture. where we think that everyone we meet is. a narcissist because everyone has 1% of. a of a narcissist in them or everyone we. meet is a gaslighter and it starts to. create a really unhealthy belief system. around who are around. I I watched this. movie recently.

It didn't get great great ratings on. Rotten Tomatoes, but I saw it on a plane. and I watched it out of intrigue. It's. called Cat Person. uh and it's based on this element of. catfishing. Mhm. It's a kind of like a satire parody. thriller of the. challenges of modern dating, but how so. much of those challenges are in our. head, but how they can transform into. reality. And if anyone hasn't watched. it, it's a fun one-time watch on a plane. or, you know, one night with a friend or. whatever it may be, but what I.

appreciated about it is it talked about. this idea of how we kind of start. viewing people as more crazy or. psychotic than they might be because of. these little clues that we've been. trained to look out for, if that makes. sense. Yes, and and we do, we look at other. people as they're doing things that are. very human, and we label that crazy. When we do it, we we say, "Oh, but. there's a reason and here's why. I'm not. crazy. I had context," like you said. Yeah. We don't give them the context. Now, I'm not talking about abusive. behavior. Of course, yeah. But I'm talking about.

the things that we will literally say, "Oh, that's unacceptable.". Without saying, "Wait a minute, why why. is this happening right now?" All of our. behavior, by the way, is motivated by we. want to be loved. We really do, and. sometimes we do it in a way that makes. people not want to love us, and we don't. realize that we're pushing people away. with our behavior. But at the core, we. are doing it because we want to be. liked. We want to be loved. So, is this. person doing this very strange thing.

because they're a horrible person, or. because they're human like me, and at. their core are they very vulnerable, and. they don't their behavior doesn't. reflect the wish. The wish is, "I want. you to like me," or I want to protect. myself from being hurt. The behavior is not okay. It's kind of. like when you say to little kids, "It's. okay to be angry. It's not okay to hit. someone.". Right? So, what is that equivalent as an. adult? It's okay to feel the feeling, but what do we do with it? And can we. understand why that person is acting.

that way. Can we understand the context? Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the ways. that that kind of transpires into a a. bigger moment that our community had a. lot of questions around was. what's the right amount of pressure. for someone to get married or propose to. you? Because I think people get to this. point where they feel like we've. invested so much time, we're together, we're here, but this. person is just not proposing then not.

getting they don't you know they don't. want to get married whatever it may be. and that gets to this point of this. ultimatum of like and now there's even a. TV show called The Ultimatum which is. all about people dealing with that. period in their life. So, what does. someone do in that scenario where they. feel there's good commitment, we're. getting somewhere, but the other person. isn't showing this. excitement, enthusiasm, or even taking. action on taking this relationship to. the next level? This is like that. birthday party thing where you feel. like, you know, the other person should. just know. Um but we're not.

communicating about it. The fact that. people don't talk about whether they. want to get married before a proposal. happens is insane to me. It just. I'm glad you said it. It makes It makes no sense. That it. shouldn't be a total surprise. You should know that you're both on the. same page and you should know that the. other person is definitely going to say. yes. That you've talked about this. So. many people come to me for premarital. therapy where they can talk about cuz. they know they want to get married and. maybe they want to they're not even. having any problems. They just want to.

talk about their families and how. they're going to blend their families. and the in-laws and the siblings and, you know, this person and this. personality or they want to talk about. money or they want to talk about whether. they want to have kids and how many and. how that might work or they want to talk. about balancing their careers or they. want to talk about sex and all the. different things that might be hard to. talk about before you get married that. are so important and they might not have. the answers right now, but they're. learning how to talk about these. challenging topics. Mhm. And people say,

"Oh, you're in therapy and you're not. even married yet. Something must be. terribly wrong." It's like, "No, something's terribly right.". And so, the fact that that people are. saying like, "I really want this person. to propose, but I don't understand why. they're not." And they don't feel like. they can ask the person means you are. not ready to marry that person. If you. don't feel like you can bring this up. and say, "Where are we? We've been. together for this amount of time. I'm. feeling this. I'm wondering where you. are with this." And the person you'll. get so much information from. "I do want.

to marry you. I don't feel ready yet. because of this, but I think I will feel. ready in 6 months." Right? And then you. have a choice. Do you want to wait for. that or do you not want to wait for. that? Or never. They may say, "I don't. Or they might say, "Actually, I don't know how I feel about. getting married. I don't know if I'm. going to come around to that." You have. a choice about what you want to do with. that. I, you know, "Oh, I didn't realize. that I I thought I did want to get. married, but now I'm not so sure." Well, that's really important to know. Why?

What's happening between us? So, that. conversation is so important. Or do you. just want to sit there scheming with. your friends about how you can drop. hints or how you can like analyze the. behavior because the person did this and. what does that mean? That doesn't sound. like the kind of marriage you want to be. in. Don't you want to be in the kind of. marriage where you can say to the. person, "Hey, this is what I'm desiring. This is what I'm wanting. Where are you. with this?". Mhm. If that's such a basic. conversation. But that's so much. healthier than an ultimatum, too, because I think we also get again, it.

goes back to what we're talking about. earlier, you haven't given that regular. check-in. You haven't touched base. You. don't really know what that person's. belief system is around marriage or. whatever else it may be. And all of a. sudden it's built up for you as this big. thing. And now you're like, "Okay, well, either you marry me or we're over." And. then that's not comfortable for that. person, either, because now they they. they're forced into a choice as opposed. to a sense of how do you feel about this. and what are your thoughts about this? Again, it comes back to we're so scared. of appearing to be naggy. We're so.

scared of appearing to be high. maintenance. We're so scared of. appearing to be the one who's needy or. desperate or whatever may be, but we are. feeling all of those things because. we're not checking, how do we get over. this hurdle? And by the way, I I you. experience in both. Like, a lot of. people don't break up with people for. years. Mhm. because they don't want to be seen. as the bad person. The amount of people. I've spoken to who are like, "Oh, if I. break up with her, if I break up with. them, if I break up with him, oh my god, he's just going to hate me. and I'm going to be the worst and I just.

don't want to do that to them and. they're a nice person." But really all. we're saying is I just don't want to. I want to be liked. Yeah. In both. scenarios, whether it's I don't want to. nag them to marry me and propose, I don't want to break up with them. because I don't want them to see me. negatively. How do we get over that. hurdle of recognizing that we're putting. off the best decision for us or. conversation. because we want to be liked. in a space that. we can't be. Do you know what Does that. make sense? You know what I'm trying to. say? Yeah. Right. Well, it's like a parent. Like,

if you if you set a boundary with your. child, they might not like you in that. moment, but you're doing something. loving. And so, if you break up with someone. that you know you don't want to be with, you're doing something loving. So, I I. think that we need to reframe what we're. actually doing. What you're doing by. staying in a relationship and and. stringing someone along is actually. cruel. And it's wasting their time. So, you're not being nice. You're not going. to be liked. But I think the other thing. we were talking about about bringing. things up, it's not just about a. proposal. It's even about Lots of people.

will say, "Oh, you know, I know I think. my other person that I'm dating is also. dating other people. I would like to not. date other people, but I'm afraid that. I'll appear too needy too early." Right? As opposed to just being honest about. what you want. They can say yes or no. But to be clear about, "Look, we're. we're dating. I don't feel comfortable. with I I can't really feel like I can. get close to you if I know that you're. dating other people at this point cuz. we're spending a lot of time together. So, how do you feel about this? Are you. ready to be in an exclusive. relationship? Is that of interest to.

you? If they say no, wow, great. You've. learned a lot. Um you can make a choice. like I'm comfortable doing this for. another month or I'm not or you know, whatever it is. Um or they can say, "Oh, I didn't know. that that was important to you and I. would like that too. Let's do that." Or. "I'm not ready to do that.". So, people do this in all kinds of. situations. It's not just about. marriage. They're so afraid to just. bring their true selves into the kind of. relationship where the the whole game.

here is bringing your true self to it. So, if you can't practice that at at any. point in the relationship, you're not. ready to be together for the long term. You can't just say, "Oh, now that we're. engaged, now I can bring my true self.". Well, that's a recipe for disaster. because now it's like you misrepresented. what you actually want and need in a. relationship and maybe the other person. has misinterpreted what you want and. need because you haven't expressed it. But we're so it's I'm fully with you. I. just find that we're so it's so. hardwired in us like we're so scared of. rejection. We're so scared of being able.

to say, "This is how I feel." because. we're like "Oh, that person is just. going to walk away from me." Like this. is the thing that I'm going to lose this. person over if I really tell them. And I. think often, Laura, you've probably seen. that people don't know how to. effectively weigh their emotions. So, everything's a 10. So, right? It's like "Oh, they were. late. That's a 10. Uh they're seeing. other people. That's a 10." Like. everything is a 10 and so I think we're. also bad at being like, "Okay, well,

this doesn't need to be raised because. it's a two. And yet this does need to be. raised because it is a nine and. this is a minus five. Like I'm just. being ridiculous here." And so, I think. because we weigh everything as a 10, then we don't know how to Does that make. sense? Like. and I think that's because again, we we. bring so much of the relationship. outside where people don't have the. context. So, and and that's what I was. talking about earlier is like you say, "Listen to what this person did or. listen to what this person is doing.". And your friend sees that you're upset.

about it, so they say, "Yeah, you should. really bring that up.". You don't have to bring up every thought. that crosses your mind. That is not what. I'm talking about. I'm talking about. what do you value? What makes you. uncomfortable to the point that this is. something that you want to address. So, I think people either undervalue it, which is what we were talking about, and. they don't bring it up cuz they're. afraid, "Well, maybe it's not such a big. deal." Even though it is a big deal to. you that this person is seeing other. people. You don't feel safe. You don't.

feel comfortable. But then there are things that they. overvalue, you know, like, "Well, this. person does this or that." Right? I hear. this in therapy all the time, and I'm. thinking, "Really?" You know, like, "This is But I'm glad we're talking. about it. I'm glad they brought it up in. therapy because now they can understand. it better." And now And by the way, I. think the other blind spot that people. have in dating is they think these are. things that make the other person not. perfect, and they don't realize, "Oh, there are things that the other person. has to compromise on to be with me.".

That I am not perfect either. I'm sure. there are so many things that I do that. the other person is annoyed by or. frustrated by or maybe if they could. create, you know, ala carte the perfect. person, they might not order that. particular feature, but I have it, and. they are with me anyway, right? And so, we think we're going to change all these. things about them without thinking about. the other person as being so chill about. some of my maybe less than perfect. features. So, how can we see the other person as.

human in these ways so we don't have to. kind of craft them? We don't have to. shape them or mold them in a certain. way. We just have to say, "Okay, these. are the big things." And the other. little things, remember, they're putting. up with things about me, too, and I'm. very grateful for that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's that. there's that famous statement that says, we judge other people by their actions, not their intentions. Yes. And we judge ourselves by our. intentions, not our actions. And when.

we're looking at someone else, we're. blind to their intention. It's just what. they said or what they did. Whereas, when we look at ourselves, we can. justify why we said it and why we did. that. Yep. And we have to start offering both sides. that grace and compassion and empathy, because otherwise, we're going to. constantly feel that everything's. against us and everyone's not for us. Right. When I cancel on someone, I have. a good, valid reason, and I still care. about them. When they cancel on me, they're disrespectful, and they don't.

care about me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. One of the biggest. This is I'm I'm enjoying these. conversations so much, Lori, because I. feel like we're really getting to like. the heart and the core of so much of. what I feel is making dating so. challenging right now, and. you know, finding love is just such a. important pillar of human happiness and. connection that. it breaks my heart when when I see that. we're tripping ourselves up. Yeah. And. when I asked my community what was one. of the things that they think trips them. up, it was this idea that they have now.

coined the future tripping. This idea of. planning the future in their head, visioning a future with this person when. things are looking okay or good. In. their head, they're, you know, in the. most extreme cases, imagining their. wedding day or what their kids might. look like. But even in the immediate. sense, like, this could be it. This is. amazing. This is going to last. And then. all of a sudden, they get a reality. check where that person is not really. mirroring that back. Mhm. How do we stop ourselves from. future tripping? Or is there a healthy.

way of future tripping with the person? Is there a collective collaborative. future tripping? Like what what does. that look like? I think the future tripping is being in. the present. And what I mean is what's. happening now is what it's going to look. like in the future. So, instead of. imagining, "Oh, this person will change. in this way." Or this this we're going. to have this kind of life, but you don't. know if the other person wants that kind. of life. If you're not talking about it. now in the present, you don't know. How. does How does this person treat me now? What is it like when we're together? The.

biggest indicator would be we had a. disagreement, how did we get through it? That's what your future is going to look. like. We didn't agree on this. We were. frustrated with each other. We had a. difference of opinion. How did we repair. that rupture? We talk a lot about. rupture and repair. Everybody's going to. have ruptures. You have it with your. family members, with your friends, with. your co-workers, with your parents, with. your children, especially with your. romantic partners, because we have this. misguided notion that we shouldn't have.

a rupture with them, because we're so in. love and we see each other and we see. eye to eye. But of course you're going. to have ruptures. It's not so much. whether you're going to have a rupture, it's what do you do with it? And what. does it look like? So, if you have been. dating for, let's say, 6 months and you. haven't had a rupture, you guys are not. going deep enough. You guys don't know. each other well enough. You're still on. your best behavior. You have to be able. to be yourselves. That's going to tell. you what the future looks like. So, stop. the pretending, be yourself, be what you.

want your future to look like, act like. you want your future to look like, see. how the other person acts, and see what. happens between the two of you. And a. repair would look like something like, "Oh, I didn't you know, we're having a. disagreement right now. Why don't we. take 15 minutes and let's come back when. we're not so heated and let's talk about. that." Or you know you made a mistake. Um you know what? I've been thinking. about this. You know, say you have an. argument, you say, "We're not going to. talk for a few minutes, let's go cool. off, whatever. Um you call them back and.

you say, you know what? I thought about. it. I was wrong. And I'm so sorry. Here's what I did and I wish I had done. it this way. Mhm. And that's great if your partner can do. that or if you can do that, right? And. then if your partner then can accept. that without shaming you. If your. partner can say, I really appreciate. that and I wish that I had reacted. differently in this way. Mhm. And how. can I be more supportive in those. moments? That's beautiful. That's your future.

But you have to see it in the present. You can't imagine what the future's. going to be. You have to actually live. it in the present and say, oh, now I. know it's going to be just like it is. right now. Mhm. Yeah, and and like. you're saying, like if you are making. plans in your head, but you're. uncomfortable to talk about those plans, then they only exist in your head. Like. they aren't real. They aren't they. aren't going there. I was going to I. wanted to get your thoughts. I don't. know if you watch any of these shows or. or whether you're exposed to them and I. know that your book's being turned into. a a scripted show, I believe. But but. when you look at like unscripted shows,

like you look at shows like Love Island. or Love is Blind. I mean, Love Island. right now is. culturally like one of the most talked. about shows in for for young people for. sure. How do you feel about. those shows? And yes, they're. entertaining and yes, we love to get. into all the. gossip and what's going on and. everything. How how is that affecting. our views and our own relationships? Yeah, I haven't actually seen those. shows, but many of my therapy clients. talk about them. Um I did just watch.

Bridgerton, which is a scripted show, but very much like what I imagine those. other shows to be. And I just think. that, you know, people think that that's. what it's supposed to be like. So many. times people will come into therapy and. they'll say, is this what it's supposed. to feel like? Is this what it's supposed. to be like? And it's like, how does it feel to you? Oh, it feels really good. Well, then. that's how it's supposed to be. How does. it feel to you? I don't know. This. doesn't doesn't feel right. Well, then. that's not how it's supposed to be. Mhm.

And that's really again coming back to. can you tap into how do I feel around. this person? Does it feel as you said peaceful, calm? Do I feel safe? Do I feel comfortable? Mhm. And it's not just that. It's not. just that cuz you got to have friends. that you feel that way around. Yeah. But. if you don't have that and you have the. other things, that's not enough. That. kind of brings me on to this this next. theme that I want to dive into you. deeply around is. what is it about the 5 to 7-year mark.

that ends in a divorce or a breakup? Like why is that the number. that you see in the research? Why has. that become such a prominent pivot point. or end point? Mhm. What have What have. you seen over the years? What I see. happen around that time is several. things are happening. There's a. developmental. change that happens throughout a. marriage and you both become different. people and the relationship becomes. different and you adapt together. And. those are the strong marriages and the.

strong relationships. that's where you're being called into. Either you grow together or you grow. apart. Well, so so different things happen. So, first of all, I think that sometimes. people don't know each other well before. they get married. Then they're married. and they're like a year in and they. think, "Oh, this isn't exactly what I. wanted, but I'm in it. I'm married." And. then they say, "Okay, let's let's have a. baby." Right? Um because then that's the. next step and then now that's really. hard. Parenting is really challenging. and if you and your partner are not. already on solid ground, it's going to.

be extra challenging. Mhm. So, then you. think, "Oh, my partner's the problem.". When actually the relationship is the. problem. Mhm. So many times people come. into couples therapy and the first thing. that they say is "The problem is and let. me tell you everything that's wrong with. my partner." Mhm. And so what I do with. couples therapy is I say before you come. in, I want you each to come in and say. if you were to be your best selves in. this relationship, what would you need. to change of yourself, each of you. And. they say it out loud. And that's all.

they're working on is changing that. They're not working on changing the. other person. And when they do that, they say, "Oh, wow." Like that actually. changes the relationship. The relationship is an entity. It's not. just, you know, there's two people. It's. like there's three people happening. There's you, there's you, and then. there's the two of you. And so I think around 5 years, either. they realize I didn't know enough about. this person, or I still have work to do, or other things have come into our. lives. A parent got sick. It was really. challenging. We didn't know how to deal.

with it. We had children. We didn't know. how to deal with that. You know, we've had we've had. difficulties. We've had loss. All kinds. of things happen at at that point. Yeah. I just want to say to your point, I've. had so many friends who were given the. advice. that if your relationship's not working. out, have a baby and it will save it. It's terrible advice. made sense to me because if your. relationship's not working, now you have. another relationship to take care of who. is a new child, a new human being in the.

in the world. And so how are you get. You're going to give less attention to. each other. You've already been given no. attention. Now you have less attention. to share with each other and more. attention on this another being. I'm I'm. shocked that that advice still gets. passed around and people still see it as. a viable solution to a bad relationship. Yeah. Yeah, they think of it as like. sunk cost. Like we've been married this. long, so we can't we can't start over. We can't, you know, what do we do to. save this? Let's have a baby because. it's a distraction. They think like this will be great. It's.

exciting. It'll bring some vitality and. energy and aliveness into the. relationship. When if you don't already. have that aliveness and that vitality. between the two of you, the baby is not. going to provide that for you. Mhm. You're going to get a lot of outside. attention, like, "Oh, that's so great. Look at the baby." But, in reality, you. guys are going to have to be more of a. team than you've ever been and problem. solve more than you've ever had to and. figure out how to create connection. under much more challenging. circumstances. So, it's the most. counterintuitive advice and and I I.

always tell people, if you are not. solid, do not bring another person into. this family. Yeah, it's almost like you already don't. have problem-solving skills, you don't. have collaboration skills, and now. you're having to make choices on behalf. of an entirely new human being where the. stakes are so high and everything feels. like it's personal of whether things are. going well for the child or not. Well, what happens is the pain Olympics. start. And what I mean is that, you. know, I had the baby all day, I have it.

harder, you didn't do this. No, I had it. harder cuz I've been at work all day and. now I have to take over this and you. didn't have to work all day. Whatever it. is, they vie for who has the most pain. and then they compete for it and that. becomes their relationship. You know, you owe me because I won the pain. Olympics today. No, you owe me because. yesterday I won the pain Olympics and I. never got my reward. And that becomes. their whole relationship. Mhm. Yeah, one of the questions I ask. people when they say to me like, "Should. we have kids now or is it the right time.

to have children?". I often say that I think we're asking. the wrong question. Like, the question. should be, "Do I know how my life is. going to change? And am I ready for. that? And am I aware of that? Are we. aware of how our life is going to. change?" To the point you're making of, "Well, who is going to take the. responsibility? And am I going to feel. like you're not helping out?" And what. does that look like? Again, having a. conversation about it seems like the. practical thing to do. Another. relationship that seems to. add more complexity since the beginning.

of time is in-laws. You mentioned it. earlier that you have clients that come. and see you for that. The The of friends. I've spoken to recently who have this. challenge where they feel that. their in-laws are too involved, their. in-laws are not involved. When their. in-laws are too involved, they're too. controlling of either or one of the. partners or they have expectations, they. have certain demands on time and. holidays and where they're spent and all. of these kinds of things. What I found to be the core pain it it.

again going back to our earlier. conversation. is people feel their partner's parents. are too involved, too demanding, too. hands-on. But they feel their partner can't stand. up to their parents and their partner. doesn't understand how it affects them. That's kind of where I've seen the main. pressure that people are carrying. How does someone deal with the fact that. they feel their partner doesn't defend. them or stand up for them in front of. their partner's parents and therefore.

they feel their partner doesn't. understand what they're going through. I. have gotten thousands of letters to my. column and to my podcast about in-laws. And what I always say is in-law issues. are couples issues. So people think it's. about the mother-in-law, the. father-in-law, it's about the two of you. and if your partner, whose parent that. is, cannot talk to their parent on your. behalf, that's a couples issue. So the person will say, "Oh, it's really. not that bad." But if your partner is.

saying, "I am really struggling with. this.". And it's not your you know, it's it it's. not their parent, you need to talk to. your own parent about this. You need to. have your partner's back. And if you. don't, your partner is going to feel. that you are treating them the same way. that their parent is. You might not be. doing the same thing, but the fact that. they don't have your support is going to. pull you apart in this marriage because. your partner it's not about taking. sides, it's about prioritizing.

this couple's relationship and saying, "Listen, when you do this, it makes my. wife feel like she's not a good parent. or she's not a good wife. And you might. have these values, Mom, and I understand. that, but I don't want you saying those. kinds of things. You can have whatever. thoughts you have. Please don't say them. to me or to my wife because I'm very. happy with our relationship." And what. you're really standing up for is the. relationship. It's not just standing up. for your partner. It's standing up for. we understand each other, we can talk. about these things with each other. And.

we do not want that kind of. interference. What do you do when your. partner doesn't have the guts to do. that? When they don't have the. authority or the the relationship with. their own parents, which is constantly. being they've been baby, they've been. Mhm. you know, the mommy's boy or. whatever it may be and they don't really. have the courage to stand up to their. parents and say. what you just said, which isn't rude, it's not Mhm. mean, but in their head. they're like, "How could I ever define.

my parents? Like, what does that look. like?" Or Or they're guilt-tripped Mhm. like by their parents where it's like. they're like, "I could never do that to. my mom. Like, she's loved me since day. one. Like, you just turned up in my life. 2 years ago. Like, what do you do when. your partner's feeling that way?" Yeah. Well, I think you help your partner to. understand that this is a very loving. thing for the relationship with the. parent, too. So, you're not telling the. parent, "I don't want you in our lives.". You're saying, "I want you in our lives. We both want you in our lives, but we. want you in our lives in a way that.

makes us feel like we're enjoying our. time with you." And if it becomes this. thing where we're not enjoying our time. with you and it becomes problematic, we're going to be spending less time. with you. And Mom, I don't want that. And my wife doesn't want that. We both. want to spend time with you. We just. want it to be enjoyable. So, we're. asking that you not talk about this, whatever the issue is, or you not do. this, or you not tell my wife to do. this, or you not criticize, because that. makes it not enjoyable, and then we're. going to see you less. And we love you.

so much that we feel comfortable saying. this to you. If we didn't love you, and. we didn't care how much we saw you, we. wouldn't be bringing this up. I'm. bringing this up because I love you, and. I want to be able to see you. And I think when people when you set. boundaries in a loving way, when you. say, "I want to see more of you. I want. to be able to continue to see you. I'm. not pushing you away. I'm pulling you. close. But the way to pull you close is. to make sure that we have a good time. together." Yeah. Yeah, and I find that.

sometimes, and it can be different in. every relationship, but often this, at. least in the people I know, the pressure. often falls on. the man who feels like he's in between. his mom and his wife in that in that. kind of a setup, or at least those are. the ones that I'm aware of, and I'm sure. it has takes all sorts of forms. But. it's often quite a heavy pressure that I. know a lot of men feel. And they're like, "I don't want to let. my mom down, and I don't want to let my. wife down, and now I'm stuck in between. these two things, and it's almost like,

who do I choose?" And I feel like I have. to choose a side. Right, but you're not choosing. You're. actually choosing to bring everyone. together. You're saying, "I want us all. to be able to be together.". And so, what I'm doing is I'm making. sure that it that we can spend more time. together. Yeah, that's great advice, and. I really hope that reframe is kind of, you know, permeates. One of the things I. imagine you see a lot in therapy is one. partner has forced the other partner to. come there. Maybe in couples therapy, it's hard for two people to feel equally. as excited. Maybe if they're premarital,

that may be more equal, but when it's. reactive, it's definitely one saying, "We need to go to therapy," and someone. may feel forced. One thing I found that a lot of people. say to me is, "Jay, I just can't get my. partner to open up." Like, whether it's. in therapy, whether it's with me, I'm. asking them, I'm talking to them. I'm. just like, "I just want to know what you. feel." Like, even with the question you. said earlier of like, "Hey, I I have a. dream to get married. What's your take. on it?" They'll be like, "I don't know.". Or they'll they'll go quiet when it's. like, "Hey, we need to go talk to your. parents about this because they're.

getting really involved." and they just. go quiet. They don't know what to say. And they constantly feel that these. their partner doesn't have the capacity. to open up. And I find this especially. with young couples where they're just. like, "My partner doesn't have an. emotional vocabulary. Like, they don't. have the ability How have you encouraged. people in those scenarios to be able to. open up or help their partners open up. or create a safe space when a lot of. people don't have that skill and that. ability to actually even know what. they're feeling and thinking?" Yeah, you.

have to create the space for that person. to feel comfortable opening up. So, often people who can't open up or have a. hard time with it, they were not given. the space before. So, when they opened. up, someone would say, "Oh, no, you. don't feel that way.". You know, right? So, when they were. growing up, they'd say, "You know, I'm. upset about this." or "I'm sad about. this." and the parent would say, "No, don't be sad. Let's go get ice cream.". Right? So, there was no space for the. sadness. Or "I'm really angry about. this." "Oh, you're overreacting. You're.

so sensitive.". So, they don't tell someone that they're. angry about something. Or "I'm really. worried about this." "Oh, don't worry. It'll all work out." Or "What do you. mean you're worried about that? Why are. you always so worried about everything?". Mhm. So, they never felt like they had a. space for their feelings to be received. and held. We talk about in therapy the. the concept of feeling felt. What does. it mean to feel felt? And I love that. expression because I think that when you. want someone to open up, they want to. feel felt. They want to know that you're. going to receive whatever they have to.

offer in a compassionate way and in a. way that feels connected. Mhm. So, when. you tell someone, "Tell me what you're. feeling. Open up." That feels like so. much pressure. As opposed to just, you know, being with. them. So, maybe you you start with. something like, "Hey, I'm feeling really. this about this, you know? What was that. like for you?". And they might say, "It was fine.". Cuz they don't know. "Did you have a good time?" You know,

"Did it make you sad when this happened? It made me sad, but maybe you didn't. feel that way.". You know, just just helping them to have. the vocabulary. There's this thing. called a feelings wheel. And a lot of. people only learns like with the colors, the primary colors, right? So, red, yellow, blue, right? And then if you mix. red and yellow, you get orange. And. there's more nuance. And if you put more. yellow, it becomes more yellowy orange, right? And so, people only know like. happy, sad, mad. But they don't know like, "I felt. frustrated. I felt scared. I felt.

vulnerable. I felt anxious. But where. did you feel the anxiety?" Well, I felt. it in my belly. I felt it in my chest, right? So, there's so much nuance. And. for people who don't open up, they often. only have those three primary emotions. And then they don't really know how to. describe what they're feeling. So, you. can mirror that for them and model that. when you talk about your feelings. Like, "I was really afraid of that. And. I was really angry, but actually. underneath the anger with my friend, I.

was feeling hurt.". "And I realized I was feeling really. hurt by her behavior, and it seemed like. I was angry. But I'm feeling really. neglected.". And so, you know, "Did you ever feel. that way? Have you ever felt, you know, we whatever it is." But it just like it. just becomes part of the air. It's not. like, "Sit down, face me, and tell me. how you're feeling. Open up to me.". That feels like so much pressure, but it. just like it's in the air. And they've. never lived in that environment before, you have to remember. So, it's just this. is a new planet that they've landed on.

And here's it's like a new Let's say. it's a new city. And in this city, we. speak a different language. And we speak. in the language of emotion. And they're. going to start to pick up the language. bit by bit, but they're not going to be. fluent right out the gate. So, don't say. "Speak French to me.". It's like, oh, here's this new language. You'll pick up a few words here and. there. That's so good. That's such a. great visual. and analogy. Like, if I turn up in a. different city or a different country. and someone just expected me to know how. to speak that language, I would feel so. much pressure. And And actually, we've.

all experienced that where you're like, I don't even want to try and say a. sentence cuz I feel I'm going to sound. so stupid. Mhm. It's that comfortability, and that. could take a while. This is my last. question I want to ask you today, Lori. What. How long. Not abuse, not um something as extreme. as that. How long can you tolerate. disrespect, confusion, and distance from your partner. before you feel this is enough. I I. can't do it anymore. I feel like every.

relationship. goes through phases and periods of. distance, of disconnect, of. disagreements. It's normal. It's It's. going to happen across a long period of. time, but when does an individual say, "You know what? I can't do this anymore. I can't keep. tolerating this." What have you found. that. makes people feel strongly about leaning. in that direction versus I can I'm I'm. in it for some more. Yeah. Well, first. of all, there's a study that shows that. if you think of your relationship like a. bank account, and you want to have lots.

of goodwill in there. Let's say it's an. account of goodwill, and you don't want. to take a lot of withdrawals. So, when. we talk about disrespect, so you need. five positive interactions for every one. negative interaction, or you're going to. be operating in deficit spending, and it. won't work. But, we're talking about. maybe the confusion or somebody had a. bad moment, but they repaired it. Those. kinds of things. Disrespect is so. corrosive in a relationship. So, if.

someone does it the first time, like the. cement drying, you say, "Hey, that You. don't tell them you were so. disrespectful. That was so mean." You. say, "I felt really disrespected by. that. Can you tell me what you actually. meant?". Right? And then they say, "Oh, I'm sorry. I said it that way. I should not have. said it that way. Here's what I meant. and it came off completely different and. I will make sure that doesn't happen. anymore." That's the response you want, right? And here's what I was thinking.

and I need to work on that. If someone says, "That wasn't I I you. know, if you use the I felt. disrespected." They say, "Well, it. wasn't disrespectful. I didn't intend. for it to be." You say, "Okay, you. didn't intend for it to be, but it felt. disrespectful to me and let me explain. more about why." And the person still is. like, "Well, I didn't mean it." Okay, but here's how it landed on me. That. person doesn't seem like they have a lot. of flexibility. The number one trait. after emotional stability that predicts. the success of two people having a good. relationship is flexibility.

You cannot have a good relationship with. neuroticism, rigidity, um lack of. self-awareness. So, if this person can't. respond to you and they're still being. disrespectful, I would not wait. Um the question is, are you being clear. about what disrespect is? Because again, then we get to, you know, someone said. something that maybe was not. disrespectful, but because of your. history, you hear something as being. disrespectful. You know, they might have said like,

"Oh, I don't know if that that job is. worthy of you.". And you hear that is, "Are you saying. that like I have a bad job?" And you're. saying, "No, I think your worth is. higher than your job." Right? So, that. person was actually being very. respectful of you and saying the. opposite of what you thought. So, you. have to really be clear about, "Can I. hear this person clearly?" But if this. person is critical of you and sometimes. the the way they frame it is, "Oh, I was. just kidding. You can't take a joke?". That is so abusive.

Um so, it's it's not funny. Criticism is. not a funny way of making a joke, and if. you have to put something someone down. to be funny, then that's probably not. someone you want to be in a relationship. with. Lori, thank you so much for coming and. sharing your wealth of wisdom and depth. of insight today with our community. I. want to thank everyone who's been. listening and watching for your amazing. questions. Please keep sending them. through so that we can keep getting Lori. back. I think you've helped identify so. many of root issues today. I feel like. we really got to a place of talking.

about some of the deepest aspects of. where we go wrong at the same time as. talking about a lot of the day-to-day. challenges that we seem to hear about, and I really hope that everyone who's. listening and watching, I hope this. helps you in your love life to find. deeper connections, to find more. meaningful relationships, and ultimately. maintain a natural, healthy, truly. nourishing relationship with a partner, and. wishing you all the best in your love. life. So thank you so much again Lori. for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for having me,

and thank you to your audience for. submitting so many great questions. Yeah, thanks Lori. Hey everyone, if you. loved that conversation, go and check. out my episode with the world's leading. therapist, Lori Gottlieb, where she. answers the biggest questions that. people ask in therapy when it comes to. love, relationships, heartbreak, and. dating. If you're trying to figure out. that space right now, you won't want to. miss this conversation. If it's a. romantic relationship, hold hands. It's. really hard to argue. It actually calms.

your nervous systems. Just hold hands as. you're having the conversation. It's so. lovely.