WHOLE FOODS FOUNDER: How He Built a $22 Billion Company (Everyone Thought He Was Making a MISTAKE!)

Was there ever a time when you believed. that Whole Foods was going to fail? >> There were times when it almost did. fail, but there was never a time I. actually believed it would fail. >> You said something beautiful there about. what it takes to keep [music] people. >> at Whole Foods is like, "Wow, you've had. so many people work in 20, 30, even 40. years here. How do you do that?" You. give people two things. [music] Give. them purpose, and secondly, they want to. feel they're loved. So, if you give. people purpose and love, why would they. ever want to leave? >> Hey everyone, welcome back to On.

Purpose, the place you come to become. healthier, happier, and more healed. I'm. so grateful to have your ears and eyes. for the next hour or so, and I'm really. looking forward to diving in with. today's guest. Today's guest is John. Mackey, an entrepreneur and co-founder. and visionary of Whole Foods Market. In. his 44 years of service as CEO, the. natural and organic grocer grew from a. single store in Austin, Texas to 540. stores in the US, UK, and Canada with.

annual sales exceeding 22 billion. dollars. John co-founded the conscious. capitalism movement and co-authored a. New York Times and Wall Street Journal. best-selling book entitled Conscious. Capitalism: Liberating the Heroic Spirit. of Business, and then the follow-up, Conscious Leadership: Elevating Humanity. Through Business. John is also the. co-author of The Whole Foods Diet: The. Life-Saving Plan for Health and. Longevity, and The Whole Foods Cookbook.

And today we're talking about his latest. book, which is called The Whole Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and. Capitalism. It's available right now. We're going to put the link in the. comments. I'd love for you to order this. while you're listening along. I promise. you, it won't disappoint. Please welcome. to On Purpose John Mackey. John, it's. great to have you here. Thank you so. much. >> Thanks for having me on, Jay. >> Yeah, really grateful to have you here, and And saying to you just now before we. started that. I actually received Conscious Capitalism.

at such a pivotal moment in my life. I. just finished 3 years of living as a. monk. And I would honestly say that I'd up. until that point thought that. consciousness or capitalism were two. separate things and that they were two. separate pursuits. My monk life. definitely helped me learn how they were. integrated, but then when I was. integrating back into the real world, so. to speak, for me to wrap my head around. rewiring my relationship with. consciousness and capitalism,

your your book and your movement really. helped craft some of that initial. thought. So, I want to thank you for. coming into my life at a at a very. pivotal and important moment for me. >> Thank you. I mean, you're an author, so. you put your books out into the world. and you you don't always know if it if. it's helping anybody or if it's having. an impact unless you hear back from. people. So, of course that makes me feel. really good. Thanks for sharing that. >> No, of course. Uh John, there's so much. to talk about today, especially about.

your new book, The Whole Story, and I. wanted to start off actually just by. asking you, was there ever a time when. you believed that Whole Foods was going. to fail? >> I don't think there was ever a time I. believed it was going to fail. There. were times when it almost did fail. >> [laughter]. >> But there was never time I actually. believed it would fail. I'm a follower. of Joseph Campbell's. the hero's journey and and I feel like. every one of us is called to a hero's. journey, but for a variety of reasons, most people don't answer that call,

usually fear. I just kind of answered. that call. I just I got when I was. studying existentialism and philosophy. in university in my in my very late. teens and early 20s, I got really clear. about death. We're going to die. Nobody gets out of. here alive. And it's a lot shorter than. people realize, the time that we have. So, what do you want to do with it? I felt like this is what my heart and my. soul called me to do. I talk about it in. the book quite a bit. And. so, when you're on the hero's journey,

you have a lot of near failures. You. have setbacks. You do get knocked down. But, also amazing things happen. All. these synchronicities occur. You seem to. meet the right person at the right time. The right mentor shows up. Uh miracles. seem to occur when you're on your path. And it's just sort of this grand. adventure. And yes, I mean, we did have. we we had a flood in our in our first. year at Whole Foods Market where we had. 8 ft of water and I didn't know it was a. we'll call it a near-death experience. But, actually it was.

turned out in retrospect to have been a. great thing. It it taught us a lot. It. taught me about stakeholders and how. we're all interconnected and how there. are people that love you. Your customers. can love you. Your employees can love. you. Your suppliers can love you. And. the community you're part of can love. you. And you can love them back. So, even in the bad things that happened, the disasters, if you reframe them, they. were all lessons to be learned on. the on the hero's journey, on the path. So, no, I never really felt it would.

fail. I always thought it would be. successful. But, you know, we almost did a few. times. But, we didn't. >> Yeah. Do you feel now you're at the. stage of the hero's journey where you're. returning with the elixir? Is that where. you're at or. >> You know, I've returned with that. elixir, but then I feel like I'm still. called. And that's my new business I. started up called Love Life, which is I. think also about it's still trying to. help people to be the healthiest version. of themselves, but going beyond just. healthy food.

>> Mhm. >> And the the deeper part of spirituality, physical healing, emotional healing, and. spiritual healing. We now have the. technologies we didn't have in the past. And we have the wearables. And we have. the consciousness that um. needs so many so many traditions are. integrating now around the world. All of. the mystical paths, I mean you were a. monk for 3 years, so clearly you were. doing a lot of meditation. You were on. your spiritual journey. Well, today all. that all that knowledge has been. available to people. It's so much.

It's easier to become enlightened today. than it used to be, you might say. And I. feel like of course that's what humanity. needs, right? Collective awakening, collective enlightenment. And yeah, so. feel like I'm still on the path. >> I love that. I mean in the book, the. whole story, you're very candid, you're. very open, and. you're a different sort of business. leader because of what you just spoke. about. I'm intrigued as to when did your. curiosity and consciousness and. spirituality begin? Is it something that. was always there since you were born or.

was it something that you discovered. over time and how? >> Even as a child, I mean I think most. children have some kind of mystical. relationship with part of their being. Their their our imaginations, their. their love and the innocence in. children. Always felt a a connection to. the divine even as a as a as a child. And then it was more traditional. I was. raised as a Christian, so traditional. Christianity. The deeper spiritual awakening occurred. when I was like first time I actually. took a psychedelic drug, LSD, back when.

I was 20 in university. And that sort of knocked me off the path. my parents had planned for me. My. parents wanted me, possibly your parents. wanted the same thing, for me to be a. professional. Above all else, they wanted me to be a. doctor or lawyer or an engineer or get. an MBA, do you know, be respectable. And and but that's totally knocked me. off and then I began my own search for. the meaning of life. I wanted to. understand. do I have a purpose? What is existence.

about? Is it all just, you know, random. chance, Darwinian Darwinian survival of. the fittest? Is there. a deeper spirituality? And of course. that's not found necessarily externally. It's an interiority. It's it's found. within our own being, within our own. consciousness. And the psych- the LSD. awakens me to that possibility. And then. I began to read Eastern religions. I. studied religion, meditating. Uh and then I continued on that journey. and had experienced an ego death again.

through psychedelics when I was about. 22. That's really kind of the starting. point of the book. I dissolved my ego. I. mean it I was just part of the one. There's only There's only the one being. And and and I just realized that at the. at the essence I I remembered it. actually. It's like. Oh, yeah. I forgot. [laughter] Here it. is. And and that changed everything. because then I it was like, "All right. I can create to dream. I can create. whatever I want to create." And what do. I want to create? And that's where the.

interiority, the the hero's journey. begins. And I moved into this food co-op. when I was 22 years old, maybe 23. And it was vegetarian. I wasn't. vegetarian at that time. But but I was. really interested in all things. counterculture. I like the hippies. And. I thought, "Man, I'm going to meet some. cool people in a vegetarian co-op." And. I did. And I had a food awakening. I I. But until then I I just kind of ate the. standard American diet, a lot of junk. food. I was more like a car. Got to take.

it in to get gasoline periodically to. run fuel. Long as the fuel tastes good, I'll eat it. And And so I didn't eat. many vegetables. I didn't eat much. healthy food. And so I learned how to. cook in the co-op. I learned about. natural organic foods. And I got excited. about it, Jay. I was like on fire. And. then I went to work in a small natural. food store. And it was like I loved it. I loved I was in a community of. employees that I shared a lot of current. values with. I was I was connecting with. customers that were my neighbors, becoming friends. And it was like.

I want to do this. And I I remember I. went back to the co-op uh. Prana House. It it called Prana House. And talked to my girlfriend, Renee. I. think that time I was probably about 23. Renee was 4 years younger, so she was. 19. And I said, "Renee, what do you. think if we open up our own store? Don't. you think that'd be cool?". And she said, "Oh, macro man, that'd be. really cool. Let's do that." And so So, we did. And that was the beginning. The. first store was called Safer Way. And. then a couple years later, uh, it we.

relocated it, merged with another. natural food company, and became Whole. Foods Market. And, uh, the adventure was. well launched at that point. >> I want to go back to a couple of things. you mentioned there, John. This idea. that, you know, not everyone who takes LSD or. a psychedelic sparks a. pursuit into a deeper spiritual journey. It can for some, it doesn't for. everyone. For you, it obviously got you. into philosophy, Eastern religions, as.

you said. It It kind of forced you. deeper. What do you think when you. describe that to someone who's never had. a psychedelic experience, never been. exposed to that? What does that mean. when you say I had an awakening? We'll. get to the ego death part, but when you. say you had an awakening, when you say. it opened it up, what's What is What are. you experiencing for someone who may not. actually know what that means or feels. like? >> Well, of course, it's like describing a. rainbow to someone who's blind. I mean, they they can't understand it really. until you have a similar experience. Or.

what is, uh, making love like until. you've actually done it? I mean, there. are certain experiences that you have to. have to actually understand it. So, when. I talk about that, I don't expect people that haven't had. similar experiences to understand, but. I expect the ones that have had similar. experiences to say, "Oh, wow, I've I've. been there. I've done that. I felt that. Experienced that." Kind of speaking to. that audience in a way. But, I also tell. people that don't want to do. psychedelics that there are other. pathways that are gentler that can have. they can have transcendent experiences.

Meditation's is good way, but that. generally takes a little bit longer for. people. I have found that breath work is. very, very powerful and I've worked with. that for years and you can have a. transcendent experience on breath work. where you get in touch with your deeper. part of your soul just by breathing. continuously, particularly in a guided. situation because you're energizing a. deeper part of your being and it and. your interior self and it's beginning to. emerge and that can scare people so they. stop breathing. But if you will keep.

breathing and continue to go through it, this is the best chance you'll ever have. to have an authentic connection with. your soul. Well, not the best chance. you'll ever have, but it's a really good. way to do it that's safe and nothing to. be afraid of. You're just breathing. So, I encourage people that the psychedelics. might scare them, just don't believe. that there there any meaning in life, that there's any interior thing to look. at. The interior universe is every bit. as expansive as the physical universe if. not more expansive. And just we're. Americans here and and and people don't.

often times do these journeys into their. interior. You obviously have, Jay. You. spent 3 years as a monk and so your own. experiments, you might say, or. adventures in this part of your psyche. are are probably very amazing. One of my. friends who always wants me to try to. explain it to him in rational terms. His. name is Alec and I say, "Alec, listen, I. can talk about this, but if you really. want to know what I'm talking about, you. have to do the experiment yourself.

because you're skeptical and you're. asking me to prove it to you. And I'll. say, "I can prove it to you if you will. do the meditation, if you'll do the. breath work, if you do the psychedelics, you can know there's an authentic. spiritual reality that you don't believe. is there." It's like that story about. the guy that lost his key under the and. he's looking under the lamp post because. well, that's where the light is, but. it's not there, clearly. So, if you're. asking people to become enlightened by. just rationality, that's looking for it.

in the wrong place. You won't find it. there. The light isn't shining there. >> You reminded me of a beautiful Vedic. term in the language you were using in. the Sanskrit is Antar Akasha, which. means inner sky. >> Mhm. >> or inner universe as you were saying. And it talks about in the same way as. the. the external galaxy we're so excited to. explore and send things to space and. figure out what's going on out there, but the inner sky is as vast if not more. and as deep and profound and.

unseen as that outer sky. And we don't. have that curiosity or that energy. I. wanted to ask you because I think one. thing I don't take for granted anymore, John, is that. for those of us who have had spiritual. awakenings and spiritual journeys, and I. agree with you on the rational part. I. think the way you explained that is is. brilliant and and I couldn't agree with. you more. Although I think sometimes we assume. that everyone wants to have that. experience or we assume everyone should.

go for that experience. And I found that. I was lucky. I met people who. had had enlightened experiences and that. made me open up to the idea that A, it. was possible. B, it existed. And C, it could happen for me. And there. was this feeling that I would meet. someone that I could tell was operating. in a different realm. They were happier. They were more conscious. They were more. at peace with themselves and others. They operated and. carried themselves differently and.

because I got to see that witness that I. recognized that there was a difference. between observing them and observing. someone else. And that made me believe. that there was another reality that I. could want to pursue. But I think for a. lot of people they hear us and they hear. people and they say, "What's the point? Like I'm trying to I'm paying bills. I'm. trying to survive. Like. >> Will that help me be more richer and. more successful? >> Right. >> Cuz they're pursuing a different path. >> So you're saying that actually tapping. into this alternate reality.

has benefits in the material world as. well. >> Of course it does. >> Yeah. >> We started this conversation off by. talking about, well, uh capitalism and consciousness, you. know, I I don't know how to see how. those things could fit together back. then. You know, I remember the you read. the Herman Hesse book Siddhartha? >> Yes, of course, yeah. >> And and so he did it backwards. Most. people uh. come to spirituality later, he came to. it at the beginning. But then he he took. what he had learned and he could apply. it in the in the material world, so to. speak, and it helped him be a better it.

helped him make him wealthy because he. kind of had his interior together, which. made it easier. But a lot of times. people are not interested in the. interior interior part because they feel. like, well, it I don't see how that's. going to help me in my day-to-day. pursuit of wealth, fame, success, power, whatever that But those things, ultimately, what people will discover. when they get those, that they don't. really make them happy. What makes people happy, ultimately, is. love. And uh.

having that uh connection. to other people, to ourselves, and to. the larger universe that we're part of. >> Mhm. >> It's not that money or fame or power are. bad things. It's just that they're most. people get addicted to them if they. pursue them, and then they forget about, like Siddhartha did in his book, he. forgot about, oh, I forgot as he got. deeper in the material plane, he got. lost in it. So I think. people that are dedicating their lives. to. to making money or or. pursuing something in the material.

plane, if that's what their whole life. is devoted to, they will find when they. get if they when they get it, that it's. not really what they wanted all along. And so if you can do these things. together, you pursue your own interior. spirituality, your own interior growth. as a as a as a person, the spiritual. part of you, as that develops and opens. and awakens, then you're going to. appreciate the external world even more. because it's beautiful. And but most.

people don't even notice it's beautiful. because they're locked in their heads, they're locked in their own egos, and so. they're they're trapped there to a. certain extent. But once you can begin. to break out or or help that ego get. That's what I like to say, the ego is a. it it should be a servant, not the. master. And once you get the ego kind of. where it needs to be and not driving the. car but in the backseat, um. then you're in a position to have all. have it all, which is to be to achieve. the success that you want in life while.

having the relationships that you want, while having your own spiritual joy. because that's what it is. As you awaken. to that part of your being, you. experience a lot more love and joy, and. those are those give our souls. satisfaction. >> I was reflecting on this recently, this. idea that the material world is always. made it about the pursuit of and having. certain things. as being the goal of life or as being. the success of life. And I was. reflecting on how spiritually, especially in Eastern traditions,

whether you have something or you don't, i.e. money, fame, power, control, is actually irrelevant. It's whether you. have freedom from envy, freedom from. ego, freedom from. anger, freedom from lust, freedom from. illusion because. you could have everything in the world. and be envious and feel like you don't. have anything. >> I've been fortunate to know several. billionaires, for example, where they. have, you know, everything uh they could. possibly want in the material plane.

But. they're comparing themselves to people. that are even more successful, richer, and they feel like somehow or another. life's is complete, and it's like you. can have anything you want materially, and it's your envy that's making you. unhappy. >> Correct. >> Well, I have found it to be a very. useful habit is is when. my friends or anyone has prosperity and. success for me to be truly happy for. them, rather than uh than feel envious.

of them. I feel like envy is a a very. insidious trap that spoils the joy of. life. >> Absolutely. And and I would say to. people, you either have the choice to. envy people or study them. And if you. envy them, then you don't get anywhere. But when you study them, you have the. opportunity to. >> I like that a lot. I'm going to I'm. going to I'm take That's a takeaway for. me today. Thank you. >> do. Yeah, absolutely. I've I focused on. that heavily because I always reflected. on I was in the same way as you, appreciating others, admiring others, but I saw the key part was studying them.

and wanting to learn from them. And all. of a sudden, you didn't. feel that they were that far away. You. felt so much closer to them and closer. to that success for yourself and that. abundance for yourself. Going to your. point on ego death, I I love that you. use that language. Could you describe. what an ego death is for someone who may. be new to the idea or or may not be. aware of how you're referring to it? >> We're very attached to our ego. I mean, we in fact think that's what we are. We.

believe we are the ego. We believe we're. body and we're an ego. And so, the ego. is the part of us that feels like it's. separate. Hey, I'm John. You're you. That's a book. This is water. This is a microphone. These are. different than me. They're not me. And so, we have this great feeling of. individuality and separateness that is. it's so real to us that we think that's.

actually reality. And so, with the ego death or. a better way to put it cuz death is a. scary word is a sort of your ego. disappearing. You don't have that sense. of separation any longer. You don't. identify with your separation. And the. metaphor I like to use is is like. clothes. So, I have clothes on today. They're not me. I'm not my clothes. And. I'm I'm going to go home and I'm going.

to take my clothes off. Maybe I'll wear them again, maybe I. won't. I'll wear something different the. next day. That's not who I am. I don't. identify with my clothes. Most people. don't, but some people do. Some people. actually feel really, really attached to. their clothing. And so, I'm not my. clothes and I'm not my ego. And until. you can actually. have an experience where. your ego is dissolved, you won't really. understand what I'm talking about. But. one of the great things about it is is.

that once you realize you're not your. ego, you can also begin to let go of. your fear of death. >> Mhm. >> Because what we are at the deeper part. of our being is. the one self, the one being. We all are. So, in a sense, we are immortal, but not our egos aren't. So, that's the. thing that freaks people out. It's like. I always like to say it's another. metaphor, it's like. when I die, I'm going to. Oh, yes. I remember. Here I am again. And I'm not John Mackey. I'm not that. ego. I'm not that The body's going to.

dissolve and disappear and. but the essence of what we are, the the one being, the one self is. there, always. And always has been and. always will be. And as as you realize. that, it's like our greatest fear, of. course, is death. And you can begin to. let that go. And by the way, once you. begin to let that fear go, then you can. really see your life as this adventure. Whatever happens, it doesn't matter. It's just like a dream. In fact, I do. think life is really a dream. And I. think that's a good metaphor to.

understand what we're doing here. I. Often times will describe it as um have. you had the experience of a lucid dream. before? So in a lucid dream, we we. become conscious that we're dreaming. And once you become conscious that. you're actually dreaming, you can begin to take control of the. dream and you can you can you can create. it however you want it to be. And once. you begin to realize that you're in a. dream here, then you can become conscious and then. you can begin to create a happy dream, a.

dream of love, a forgiveness, a dream of. on your own hero's journey so to speak, a kindness, compassion. That dream. begins to change as you wake up. It. becomes a happier and happier dream. because that's the dream that you're. creating. I always tell my friends it's. like I believe in the multiverse and. it's like cuz when I get to a doom and. gloomer that says we're all going to. we're going to destroy everything, I. says, "Well, yeah, I not me. >> [laughter]. >> That's not my dream. My dream is going. to get better and better and better, but. the multiverse is real because all.

possibilities are being realized and I. said, "There'll be some version of John. Mackey that goes down that horrible path. with you. I'm just letting you know. it'll be a different one than this guy.". >> [laughter]. >> Big news, Juni just launched at Kroger. and we're celebrating with a free can. for you because most of us hit that. point in the afternoon when our energy. dips and the focus starts to fade. Well, that's exactly why we created Juni, a. sparkling drink crafted with natural. ingredients to lift your mood, sharpen. your focus, and give you smooth energy.

all without the crash. Now available at. Kroger stores including Ralph's, Fred. Meyer, King Soopers, Smith's, and Fry's. where you can grab a free Juni on us. So. head to drinkjuni.com/kroger. to claim your free can in store so you. can feel better and live better. >> And I think C.S. Lewis wrote it best. that you don't have a soul, you are the. soul and you have a body. >> Oh, yes, that's beautiful. >> And yes, that's one of my favorite. favorite. >> C.S. Lewis fan.

>> Yeah, me too. And so, it's one of my. favorite favorite statements that you. don't have a soul, you are the soul and. you have a body. And I loved your. metaphor about the clothes. It reminds. me of a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which. talks about that just as we put on. clothes and take them off every day, the. soul takes on new bodies and takes them. off and takes on new ones. >> Exactly. >> And and that cycle continues. And I. think that there's such a liberation to. that acceptance as well. In that ego. death, as you called it, that if I start.

to think I am my clothes or I am my car, imagine how hard life becomes. >> Yes. >> Imagine how difficult it becomes if. every time your clothes get a bit dirty. or there's a little rip on them or. there's, you know, someone knocks into. your car. And we even say that when. someone hits our car, we say, "Someone. hit me.". >> Oh, yeah. I never thought about that. We. do, don't we? >> They. They hit our car, but we go, "I got hit. today.". Uh and and so, it's so interesting how. quickly we identify with our material. casing. >> Yes. >> And and what we operate in. And I wanted.

to ask you that how does that then. translate to business and to building a. life in the dream, as you called it? When you're now trying to operate in the. dream, how does that realization. actually help? Are you now visioning in. alternate realities? Are you now. strategizing differently? Like, how does. that make you approach building Whole. Foods differently? Because Whole Foods. is very tangible. It's very real. >> The way I think about it and I The first. chapter in the book is called The Game.

of Life. And the very last chapter in. the book is called The Infinite Game. And if the one self, the one being has. always existed, and the the and I think Hinduism talks. about this in the Vedanta, we're in the. one in the stillness and in pure. beingness and bliss, and then. the Big Bang occurs and we explode into. the multiverse on our adventures and. then we come back together again. And. that's that's the infinite game. We do. it and we'll always do it. And so once.

you realize that it's all a game, that. every possibility is realized, we're. just going to infinitely create, then. you can you can frame it up so there's. just this. fun game. Games are to be fun and that's. a better way to live. It's living your. life. as it's fun and loving and joyful and. that you're creating. We are very happy when we're creating. things. Watch children, they're. endlessly creative, they're endlessly. playful. I always tell people, you want.

to make a friend with a child, all you. have to do is one thing. Just play with. them. When you play with a child, they. start to trust you. They begin to find. that you're you're fun to hang around. with. You're not like all those other. mean grown-ups. I just think that is a. good metaphor for existence itself, the. metaphor of the game. But an infinite. game that we are creating ourselves and. playing, eternal play, because you have. an infinite amount of time. I mean, there's no beginning, no end, there. never will be. So, yeah.

Find your own, connect with your soul, find out what your soul wants to do and. then do it. And have fun and and and do. good in the world. >> I think play is a great analogy because. play is not mental. And I think when you say find out what. your soul wants to do, I think the hard. part is we're we're up here going. well, I don't know what my passion is, I. don't know what to do. And I'm and I'm. speaking on behalf of I know people's. genuine troubles when they're listening. to the show and they're like, well, Jay,

look, I don't know what my passion is, I. don't know where to start, I don't know. what skills I have and these are all. mental. arithmetic exercises. Whereas what. you're saying is not on that level. So, how do we get out of our heads? >> Here's the thing. Those are clues. The best way is to go directly to the. source, vis-a-vis. breath work, meditation, do spiritual. exercises. However, one clue is the things that give you. joy. That's a clue to who you are and what.

and what your own heart is calling you. to do. So, I often I get asked all the. time. I'll probably get asked that. tonight when I'm busy talking to this. university is like, well, you know, how do you know what your. heart wants you to do? And I said, you. know you're on the path when you're. happy. When you're listening to your heart and. it's bringing you joy and discovery and. creativity and play, you're you're on. your path. You. And when you it's when you're not. experiencing those things that you're.

not on the path. And so, the things that. that draw you in like for me when I I. moved into that co-op and I had my food. awakening and all I was interested in. Well, I just wanted to learn about food. I want to learn about agriculture and. and and organic and regenerative and. sustainable and and natural foods and it. was like I couldn't get enough of it. because I was so interested in it. So, those are all clues to what makes your. heart sing. That's who you're being. That's That's. in this dream. That's what you're trying.

to create and you can get in touch with. that through spiritual exercises. In my. case, you know, I my parents wanted me. to be a professional and my my I talk. about in the book, my mother died. feeling like I was a failure. She died 1987 because for her, her son. was a grocer. And for that, I was so downwardly. mobile. I never graduated from college. I just I have 120 hours of electives. I. just studied philosophy and religion, whatever I was interested in. Got a. great education. I just didn't get. credentialed. And for her, the.

credentials are what really mattered. But I was I was off on my pursuit. I I. was on my hero's journey and it was. giving me happiness and joy and that's. how you know. >> How do you know the difference between. the happiness and joy and the discomfort. that comes even in the happy and joyful. path versus the discomfort. that is not your path? Because I think. when people think of like, am I happy. and joyful, then things get a bit harder or like. you're saying, there were days when.

Whole Foods could have failed like and. it doesn't get easy and then you're. like, oh well, is this bringing me joy. now? So how do. >> We have to introduce another character. to the story. I mean, we talked about. the ego. But part of our ego is what. what I and others call the internal. critic. The The ego really doesn't It judges. everyone. The ego's constantly judging. That's the part that's envious. That's. the part that's angry. That's the part. part that somebody cuts you off in. traffic, you know, you you say curse. words. And that's the one that's judging.

us all the time. Like As I got deeper. into my own spiritual journey, that I. saw that the critical life issue for me. was. I. am not worthy of love because I'm not. perfect. I do things that I'm regret I do. sometimes identify with the ego and I do. things that later on I think that was a. I shouldn't have said that. That was and. I But then I have to go, you know, practice forgiveness to move through it. There is that part of us that is.

constantly judging and it That's what it. does all the time. It judges everyone. else. and it judges and mostly judges. ourselves and then those judgments for. ourselves we project out into the world. into the dream and then the dream is. manifesting all the time. Our emotions, our thoughts are always creating the. dream. Here's an interesting thing about. the dream. We're always a character in our own. dreams, right? Who are the other characters that seem. to be acting independently of us? We're. the dreamer. How can they do things different? How do.

they And how's that even happen? And once you begin to realize, oh my. god, I'm the dreamer. I'm creating those. characters as well. And they're they're representations of. some of my other inner thoughts, emotions, judgments, and whatnot. Once you realize that, then it's like. you you stop being a victim in your own. dream. So, if if these things are not. working out for you the way you want, that the internal critic wants to. project it out into the dream and say, "I'm a victim. These people are are. should be treating me differently. I.

feel righteous in being angry." But. again, you're putting out those emotions. that are not furthering your life and. not bringing you joy and happiness. And. then you get you sort of get stuck in. it. You get trapped in it. And I think. that's that's the human condition in a. way. The spiritual journey is to awaken. to realize, "Oh my gosh, it is a dream. I'm the dreamer. I'm a character in the. dream. And so then, how do I treat all. the other characters the way I want to. be treated?". >> Mhm. >> And that's with love, compassion,

forgiveness, thoughtfulness. Then that. dream begins to change. >> Is that's the energy we put out? >> But you know, it's a it's a path because. we will forget. Here's Here's what I. always tell people, you'll forget. You'll go back and you'll start. listening to the ego and the internal. critic and you'll judge and you'll but. you'll forget that, "Oh, yes, I'm I. remember now. It's It's It's It's my. spiritual path. It's just a dream." I. guess one of the big lessons I learned, Jay, is that the past is doesn't really. exist. The past is gone. All that's real.

is right now in this moment. That is. what's real. And in this moment, you can. choose again. In this moment, you can. choose love. In this moment, you can. choose forgiveness. And then if you forget, that's okay. Because that's the past. And now in this next moment, you can. choose again. We have this freedom. That's our freedom. We have freedom in. the moment to choose love, to choose. peace, to choose kindness, to choose. forgiveness, to be alive, to be playful. And it's okay if we forget. If you get.

down on yourself for forgetting, then. you're you're empowering that ego to. judge you as not perfect. But when. you're sharing love in the moment, you. are perfect. So, you can be perfect in the next. moment by just choosing again to be. present in the moment. And in the. moment, there is love. >> How did you transfer that energy? Like, I'm imagining you as you're building. this. huge company, before you're walking to a. meeting, when you're leading a staff.

meeting, when you're meeting. stakeholders, how was this translating into reality? What does that look like. when you're leading a company? Because. you may not be saying these words, but. you're trying to live them. >> First of all, I didn't do it perfectly. I didn't stay in the love space all the. time. I got angry, I got judgmental, I got. afraid, I all the you know, fear, envy, they're they're they're all there. I I. didn't claim that I did Whole Foods in. any kind of enlightened way all the. time. I always said Whole Foods was my.

ashram. That was the place where I got. to practice. >> Mhm. >> I get to practice forgiveness. I get to. practice being the returning to love. I. did learn some good things. We did I. always tell people, if you want to have a more loving. business, the single thing I practice. that I most recommend, we would end all. our meetings at Whole Foods with. appreciations. The the two things that can shift that. make the mental shift, emotional shift, the spiritual shift, one is gratitude. I. start my days with gratitude because it. opens the heart. And then you practice.

forgiveness when you feel like. somebody's wronged you, you practice. forgiveness. But most importantly, we. would end our meetings with. appreciations. >> Mhm. >> That's incredibly powerful. It's very. hard for people to stay in a judgmental. frame when you've just appreciated them. in an authentic way. I always say people. can know the difference between somebody. who's flattering them. because they can feel like they want. something from me versus somebody who's. genuinely appreciating us. It's very. hard to keep your heart closed to that.

And so, as we practiced appreciations in. our meetings, I could see the love in. the larger team, in the larger group. spreading. We did it at every level. And. that one technique is very, very. powerful. I always encourage people that. are running businesses or even just. running a team, if you end your meetings. with appreciations, you will find. consciousness begins to shift in the. dream. >> I'm so glad you brought that up. I. remember when I was a monk, one of our. practices after completing a service or. completing an offering that we were. doing, whether it was.

you know, feeding the homeless or or. serving in our local communities, whoever led that project would go around. the room and honor and appreciate each. person who was serving with them. And so, when I started my company, I. would do that at like our Christmas or. holiday dinners or at at our team events. or whatever, I'd go around the room and. individually speak uniquely about each. person in the room who is doing. something, and people found it so. strange, and to me it was the most. normal thing I'd done growing up, and.

and it's become such a beautiful ritual. that we have because. I find it so beautiful to reflect on. people's individual contribution and the. value that they've brought and to remind. them of it. >> You're seeing their beauty. You're. seeing the the God part of them, and you. are helping them to see it. >> Mhm. >> Because as you express that. authentically, they can feel your love. for them. And they begin to wonder, maybe I'm actually more lovable than I. thought. >> Yes. Yeah, [laughter] exactly. And and I. think.

we feel the most unloved when we feel. unseen. And so, if you really want to make. someone feel loved, you can only do that. by making them feel seen. When people. feel seen for who they are and what they. contribute and what they bring and how. much they have to give and share, then. they not only do they see it in. themselves, but they feel truly seen, so. they feel truly loved. >> That's why the what the greatest gift we. can usually give anyone is just to be. present for them in the moment, not lost.

in our thoughts. It's not, you know, we. we tend to if we listen, we start. thinking about what we want to talk. about or what we're going to say, and we. lose presence. But the greatest gift. when you can just be fully present for. someone, you are loving them by just being. present for them, and they feel that. presence. So, I absolutely agree. It's. It's It's. they feel seen. I I like that expression. of it. >> I don't want anyone who's listening or. watching to be under any false pretenses. that I'm always operating from this. space either. Like, I I love what you.

said about there are days when you're. agitated, and there are days when you're. frustrated, and there are days when it's. not love, it's fear, it's insecurity, it's it's results. Like, that's the. normal human experience, and I think. what I definitely learned is. and I love that you used the word ashram. in that sense, uh because that's exactly what an ashram. is. An ashram is a place to practice, a. place to learn, a place to heal. It's a. hospital, not a results center, you. know? I think a lot of. >> [laughter]. >> people don't realize. I remember.

one of my first days in the monastery, my teacher told me, he said, "Don't. forget this is a hospital. Like, everyone next to you has got an illness, and so do you. And the moment you start. thinking everyone around you is perfect. is when you won't like this place at. all, because you came here seeking. perfection, when actually you should. have come here seeking practice.". >> Obviously, you found a good found a good. teacher. >> I do. I'm very lucky. I have I have a. great set of teachers. Um but I love the. the use of. the language appropriately. It functions.

so well, and I love that we're having a. spiritual conversation about business. This is so fulfilling to me. So, thank. you so much for for this opportunity, because it's such a new take. We've had. business leaders on the podcast before, but this is a very different thing. When you're thinking about growth, I. think going back to that conscious. capitalism point earlier, I do think a. lot of spiritual people still feel hung. up about being ambitious, about being. results-driven,

about being focused on a goal. They feel. in some way deep inside of them we have. that wiring that if you're striving for. more, you're in some way ungrateful, unsatisfied. >> could be desired. Yeah, so let's talk. about that. >> If that's your ashram, it's a more. difficult path. You know the old saying, it's easy to be. a saint on a mountaintop. I'm talking about being a saint while. you're building a business. That's not. so easy to do because um happens. And how you respond to that, that's your.

opportunity is how you choose to respond. to the circumstances you find in in your. dream. How do you How will you show up? And I think the key is you won't always. show up well. You'll make some mistakes, but don't have to get lost there because. you can remember who you are. Remember. who you are. And in that next moment you. can choose differently. We can snap back. to it right now, whenever we want to. And that took me a long time to learn. Sometimes I might be lost in the dream. for for days and days, even weeks at a.

time. And then I'd remember, "Oh my god. Look, I've been such a jerk." And then. in instead of bang beating myself up for. not being perfect, it's like, "Yes, but. this next moment I no longer I am. present again. I'm back into the love space.". >> People often ask me like why like how. how do you function in business and. obviously now I live in LA and. everything else and it's I actually. relish the battle because I'm reminded. every day that I'm not a saint when I'm. here. Whereas on the mountaintop, I.

could potentially believe that I've made. >> think you're a saint, yeah, you've. already you've already forgotten. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [laughter]. >> The ego's always try It's like, "Oh, you're going to do this spiritual thing? I'm going to be the very best there is. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> That's the ego trying to maintain. control, so to speak. >> I love the idea that I live in a. universe that constantly holds up a. mirror to me because I'm constantly. reminded of my desires, my lower nature, my higher nature, my the complexities of.

it. And I love that battle. I relish it. because that's what reminds me to stay. on the journey and stay on the path and. stay committed. And I wanted to ask you. like when you. had moments of difficulty. where you feel you are moving away from. love in business and away from. compassion, did you come up with any practices or. habits or tools that. locked you back in? >> People would also oftentimes when you. have a difficult situations, let's say. you have to fire somebody.

or you have a business that you're going. to shut down. These are very painful, very very difficult things to do. You. know people are going to be hurt. And because we know that people are. going to be hurt, then the call and the. only right call is compassion. But you. have to think about what's the. collective good for all and you have to. make some difficult decisions because. you're always thinking, "What's my. win-win-win solution? Good for me, good. for you, good for all of us." And that. sometimes means you have to do difficult. things. But it's how you do that makes all the.

difference and how you show up. If you. show up in your heart with love and. compassion, you're probably going to have a even. though it's difficult, it's probably. going to go well and you'll maintain a. relationship because they can feel your. genuine love for them. If you do it with judgement. and anger, it's like, you know, you're. just getting what you deserve, then. you've missed it. That's. another opportunity, we'll say, to to be. in the heart space and do the difficult. things. It's like it's a skill that you.

have to practice. And if you practice. it, you will get better at it. And. you'll still to mistakes, but then. you'll learn from those mistakes. If you. just continue to view it all as an. opportunity to learn and grow and. spiritually evolve and that you will. make some mistakes and you will learn. from them. >> Mhm. >> And it's like you were talking about. learning from those that, you know, instead of envying them, you you study. them. Well, it's the same thing with you. you learn from your own mistakes. One. practice that's very helpful here, Jay, is to have people that love you.

that you can talk about all the stuff. with and they will tell you the truth. >> Mhm. >> They'll say, "John, you you were really harsh in that. You. You You were not You were not in a. loving space when you did that, were. you?" And it's like, "No, I really. wasn't." And he says, "Well, what are. you going to do about it?" And I said, "I'm going to go apologize." I I really. do think we underestimate the power of. forgiveness. We will make mistakes, mess up, fess up. When you make a mistake, when. you hurt somebody, when you're not in.

your heart, when you're in an angry, judgmental space, the next moment you can choose love and. part of choosing love is to go ahead. The ego doesn't like to admit it made. mistakes. It doesn't like to apologize. It doesn't like to ask for forgiveness. But that will restore you into that love. flow. So, you have to be willing to go. ahead and admit that you're not perfect, that you made mistakes and then as you. do that, you can then let go of it and. then you can return. >> Yeah, John, you talk about the term.

servant leadership and I feel like today. more than ever we don't really have good. role models of the. >> have it. We don't have it. Our. presidential race is certainly. >> it's so far [clears throat] away from. that and I feel like servant leadership, compassionate leadership, conscious. leadership, all of these things you'd. hope are in business schools and. colleges and universities, but they're. not. And if it does come up, it comes up. because it's hey, it'll be profitable to. be this way or we still haven't got to a. place where people realize that.

we should create businesses because. they'd be good for our kids and future. generations or we should create. something that positively impacts the. world. And we're still not there yet. I'm going to. >> tell you something you probably never. thought about before. Who teaches in. medical schools? >> Professors, I mean. >> They're doctors. >> Yeah. >> Who teaches in law schools? Lawyers. >> Lawyers, right. >> Who teaches in our business schools? Not business people. Uh they're intellectuals. They're. academics. And it's not that that's bad. It's just. that they don't have the experience.

of actually. leading. They have a theory about. leadership. There's a reason why medical. schools and and law schools actually. have real professionals that are. teaching them the skills that they need. to know. And I think it's part of where. we've gone wrong in business. We have. people that have almost no experience in. business teaching our students. So they. can't teach from actual experience of of. leadership. They don't really know about. it because they have never really done. it. >> Yeah. >> So that's one reform that we need to do.

There needs to be sort of a tradition, I. think, that uh if you're passing your. wisdom on, if you're if if you're a. retired business leader, that you should. be It's one reason I'm going to go speak. at this university tonight. I'm going to. be talking to business students and I'm. going to be sharing my experiences as we. talk about this book. That's going to be invaluable to them. because that's not something they're. getting in an MBA program. >> Obviously, the decision to sell to. Amazon was not one that you made. lightly. >> No. >> Explain what was hard, easy. about that decision. >> the choice about, you know, where do you. start the story? And in this case, I.

won't give the background for how we got. into this position, but the short answer. is Whole Foods is being attacked by. shareholder activist. Our our stock had. declined in the last couple of years, and then a shareholder activist is. somebody that generally wants to make. change to get the stock price up, and. then they'll make they'll make money. doing that. So they're very short-term. focused. We had a shareholder activist. called Jana Partners. They didn't want to work with us. They. just They said, "We're going to take. over your board and we're going to As.

soon as we get our control of the board, we're going to fire you, fire other parts of the management team, and then we're going to just sell the. business to the highest bidder, and. there's not anything you can do about. it." And left. And a little bit stronger. language than that. So, for me, it was. like. I kept asking this question. It was a. spiritual question. What is the win-win-win solution here? What is the best thing for all of our. stakeholders? How do our customers win? How do our employees win? How do our. suppliers win? How do our investors win? How do the communities that we're part. of win?

And we I looked at all the different. alternatives and I kept But I kept. asking that question. I really do. believe when you ask the question and. you stay on it and you keep asking your. soul for the answer, that it it emerges. And. I remember waking up one morning and it. just popped into my brain, right when I. woke up, and I knew it was the right. answer. It said, "What about Amazon?". Because it was kind of a crazy idea. Amazon wasn't They didn't have any. grocery stores. I'd met Jeff Bezos the year before at a.

conference, and he and I had really kind. of hit it off. You know, we we had a lot. of common interests. Jeff was a He loved. to read science fiction and fantasy. We. shared that in common. He liked to scuba. dive. I've done a lot of scuba diving. around the world. He's an entrepreneur. I'm an entrepreneur. And entrepreneurs. generally can find lots of things to. talk about. Talk Talk about their. businesses. He was very interested in. Whole Foods. We were on a panel together, and so I. really liked him. I admired what Amazon. had created, and Jeff is a one of the.

smartest, most creative people I've ever met. We looked at other possibilities. Maybe. Warren Buffett would buy the company and. it'd be in friendly hands. He joked and. said, "I own Dairy Queen, and I eat junk. food. This isn't a good fit for me.". >> [laughter]. >> And we We talked to Albertsons, and we. realized, "Oh my god, they. they would That would be terrible for us. to be part of that company. Uh we. thought about going private, but then. you're taking on, you know, 12, 13. billion dollars on your balance sheet. and you have to pay that back and you.

take and you have to pay interest on it. The economy has a downturn like it did. in 2008, you might fail. And you're also. giving control of your business over to. private equity people and they'll have. different different motivations, just. make quick make money. So, we didn't have a good answer and we. we The other answer was to fight Janna. But Whole Foods needed time to turn. around his business. We needed time to. lower our prices. If you're selling. something for a dollar and all of a. sudden now you sell it for 90 cents, in. the short run,

your sales fall, your same-store sales. fall, your profits fall, and when you. have activists, you know, that want. immediate quick turnaround, then that's. not you we needed that takes a couple of. years before lower prices will help your. customers see, well, Whole Foods is. actually not whole paycheck any longer. I I love the store and now it's more. affordable to shop there. When it popped in my brain about Amazon, we flew I we They were very interested. right from the beginning and we flew out. there and I met with Jeff and three of.

his leaders and I had three of my. leaders. It was four on four and we. talked for about three hours just about. what we could do together. And they were. not They were not your typical corporate. types. These were extremely intelligent. people, very creative. We had They had a. lot of good ideas about what we could do. together. And I remember when we left there, my. team and I went to a restaurant and. we're sitting around talking about it. and they said, "That was an incredible. conversation. Those guys were not. anything like I thought they would be. They're so smart and they're so.

creative. It'd be fun to work with them. It'd be It'd be a blast." And then it. was like, "What do you think they liked. us, too?". And it turned out they did and they flew. to Austin just a few days later and they. started due diligence and 6 weeks after. that initial meeting, we struck a deal. And when people ask me, are you is you. have any regrets about selling to. Amazon? And the honest answer is, you know, given the circumstances, that was the. best solution. I regret that the. circumstances were such that that was.

our best solution. But it was the best. solution. If I had to do it again under. the same circumstances, it would have. been far better than Janna selling us to. Albertsons or Kroger or some other. supermarket chain that wouldn't. understand our values, our culture. Amazon has largely not completely, but. it's largely let Whole Foods keep its. culture and operate independently. Now. now it's with me gone in particular, 2. years now, they are they've made more. changes than they did when I was there, partly because I resisted a lot of the. changes they wanted to do. Let me just. point out how it was a win-win-win. We.

got to cut our prices significantly four. times in the first 2 years. It cost. Amazon hundreds of millions of dollars. for us to do that, but they think. long-term. They're willing to make that. investment, put Whole Foods on a sound. or long-term financial footing. They increased the pay of every hourly. team member in Whole Foods within 30. days of the merger occurring. And that. cost them hundreds of millions of. dollars. So that was good for our team. members, good for our customers. It was. good for our suppliers because one thing. Amazon did was study every supplier we.

had, and they discovered we had all. these suppliers they didn't know about. that they put into their amazon.com and. started selling their foods and their. products. And so it was a big boom. And. they didn't tell us we had to get rid of. anybody. They just studied and learned. from us. It was good for our investors. because the stock they you know, we sold. it for 30% more than it was before we. started talking to Amazon. And. it was good for the communities that we. were part of. Amazon did not change our. philanthropic activities for Whole Food.

the Whole Planet Foundation or the Whole. Kids Foundation. In fact, they gave more. money to it. There were lots of taxes. paid to governments because of the. capital gains that were done. And so I. think about every one of the. stakeholders was better off as a result. of the Amazon merger. But, was it it wasn't perfect. I did. fight with Amazon a lot. I would say. Whole Foods is a more heart-based. company. Amazon's a more professional. culture. Uh people are there to work. there for a while, get it on their. resume, and then get a higher-paying job.

somewhere else. There's not as much. loyalty in that company. Whereas Whole. Foods, that that that's the thing that. surprised Amazon when they dug under the. hood at Whole Foods, it's like, "Wow, you've had so many people working 20, 30, even 40 years here. How do you do. that?". And I told them the truth. I said, "Guys, if you want to if you want. longevity, you just you give people two things. Give them purpose. People need purpose. They want to feel like their work is. contributing to making the world a. better place in some way or fashion or. helping people. And secondly, they want. to feel they're loved. They want to feel. they're cared for. So, if you give.

people purpose and love, yeah, why would they ever want to leave? Professional cultures don't generally. give you one of those. >> Yeah, and then when you. resign as CEO in 2021, and you did a goodbye tour. >> I left in 2022, so it's been 2 years. ago. >> gave notice. >> Right, right, right, right. >> And I had a whole year of saying. goodbye. >> Understood. But you were my favorite. CEO. >> Oh, it was incredible. >> So, did you go to every store? >> No, that wasn't possible, but I got to. every region. >> Right. >> I did literally talk to tens of. thousands of team members. And what I.

did for that whole year was just thank. people. Thank you for what you've done for Whole. Foods. I mean, I got so much love from. people. It was a beautiful, beautiful uh. letting go. And I'm you know, still on. really good terms with the leadership. there. And and also, my gift to them. was, "You know what? I'm not meddling at. all. I'm not judging you." Are they. doing some things I don't agree with? Tons of stuff. But, you know, you've got. to support the new leadership that comes. in, knowing that they got to make their. mark, and they've got to follow their. own their own hearts in a way. And also,

[clears throat] here's the thing, Jay. I couldn't really do Love Life until I. gave up Whole Foods. That's what my. heart was telling me to do. It's like, you're not I wasn't happy anymore at. Whole Foods. I was fighting with Amazon. some and I wasn't being creative. anymore. The the game, the playfulness. of it, the ability to create, that was. all kind of disappeared for me. I was. just running a huge corporation for. somebody else that wasn't the same kind. of. I didn't have the same kind of joy in. it. Remember how I said earlier, you.

know when you're on the right path. because you're happy? >> Yeah. >> I wasn't happy. I loved Whole Foods. and I but I wasn't experiencing that. same joie de vivre that I had. before that was sold. And so but it was. hard for me to let go of it cuz I loved. it so much. >> Yeah. >> But when I did let it go, then the new. possibilities emerged. >> You said something beautiful there about. what it takes to keep people purpose in. love. I want to ask you for all the. entrepreneurs that are listening,

startups, new companies, founders, large. companies, what is your best advice on hiring and. attracting good people? >> I've always been good at attracting good. people because I have a lot of passion, a lot of purpose, a lot of charisma and. people are drawn to that like moths to. flames. But I've never been very good at. hiring people and I I believe people's. weaknesses come out of their strengths. and one of my strengths is I really see. the beauty in people. I see the goodness.

in people and that sometimes makes me a. little bit blind to things that are not. as good as. >> saying I can relate to you in so many. ways. >> I learned was is that I had other people. on my team that had really good. detectors. Particularly my chief. financial officer, Glenda Flanagan and I. she was so much better at hiring than I. was. So I just learned to kind of trust her. It's like if Glenda was she didn't think. they were going to be good, I I learned. the hard way. If I hired him anyway, I'd. regret it. I really do believe that you.

need to create a team. CEOs get and. founders get way too much credit. They. get too much credit and too much blame. It's you're always doing it in a team. If you look behind Steve Jobs or an Elon. Musk or a Jeff Bezos. Remember I told. you how great that Amazon team was. And. Jeff was brilliant. So were all those. other people working there. There's just. a lot of super smart people working for. Amazon. Highly creative people. So Jeff. was able to attract and build a great. team. And so you're kind of no better. than your team.

>> Mhm. >> And I was good at attracting good. people, but I wasn't good at discerning. who was a good cultural fit or whose. weaknesses weren't going to take them. down and and harm the organization. I. depended on the other people to make. those calls. >> What would be your best advice for. firing someone? >> People procrastinate on firing for a. couple of reasons. One is that they. don't want to hurt the person. And secondly, they don't want to feel. guilty about it. So my best advice is. Whole Foods had an interesting practice.

I make a distinction between people you. need to get rid of because they don't. fit culturally. and those who are just struggling at the. job. Particularly, what I learned is. that when you often times people would. get promoted because they had done a. good job at a lower level, right? So. they're ready for the you think they're. ready for the next step. For many. people, they're not ready for that next. step. And then they get fired. And what we had. at Whole Foods is called recycling. And it was like, you know what? You were. really successful at your previous job.

I want you to go back there because. you're not happy, you're struggling, and. I want you to go back and then you'll. get an opportunity in the future. >> That's fantastic. >> And if their egos couldn't handle that, you knew they needed to go. But the. really good ones would would have say, "Yeah, I am struggling. I want to step. back, but I'll show you. I'm going to. learn. I'm going to be better. I'm I'm. going to get promoted again." Those that. later on got promoted again, they were. great because they took their failure, so to speak, as a learning opportunity.

to grow. And so then they became more effective. leaders. So my advice in letting people. go is you have to do it for the good of. the company. And if you're not willing. to do it, I used to tell myself cuz I. didn't I never enjoyed doing I was. always challenged for me. But it was. like if you're not willing to do this. and you should step aside. Because this. is what needs to happen. And if you're. not willing to do that, they're not a. very good leader. So you have to do what. you really know is best for the. organization. Other people are counting. on you. to make good decisions and and build a. great company. And if as Steve Jobs used.

to say, which I really like what Steve. would say, he'd say. A-listers hire other A-listers. B-listers hire C-listers. Because they hire people that aren't as. good as them because it makes them feel. better about themselves. Good leaders. hire people as good or better than. themselves and are not threatened by. their strengths because they know that's. what'll make the organization better. I happen to agree with that philosophy. So you want to hire the A-listers. And.

if you have to fire people, that's. regrettable. Also, one of the takeaways there is be. more careful in who you hire so you. don't have to fire. >> John, it's been such a joy talking to. you today. Honestly, I've had such a. great time and I feel like we've talked. about everything from spirituality to. business to habits to mindfulness. And. we end every episode of On Purpose with. a final five. And these have to be. answered in one word or one sentence. maximum. So John Mackey, these are your. final five. The first question is what. is the best advice you've ever heard or.

received? Follow your heart. Second question, what is the worst. advice you've ever heard or received? >> I don't know. >> [laughter]. >> Question number three, how do you define. your current purpose? >> My current purpose is to fully awaken to. love. and to share that love. with everyone I encounter. >> Question number four, how do you define. love? >> Love. is the essence of beingness. >> And fifth and final question we ask is. to every guest who's ever been on the. show, if you could create one law that.

everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? >> Be kind. >> Everyone, the book is called The Whole. Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and. Capitalism. John Mackey, uh co-founder. and former CEO of Whole Foods Market. John, it's been such a. true pleasure to have you in the studio. here today and uh I hope you come back. for many, many more and congratulations. on an incredible journey, incredible. book, and really excited to see what you. continue to do with everything that. you're building with Love Life. So,

>> Thank you, Jay. It's been a It's been a. pleasure. This has been fun. And I'm. into I'm into having fun, so this has. been very fun for me. So, thanks so much. for for having me here. >> Thank you, John. Thank you. >> If you loved this episode, you'll love. my conversation with Airbnb founder. Brian Chesky on how to tap into your. creative potential and the number one. thing people get wrong about success. >> The best people in your life will be. people who see potential in you that you. didn't see in yourself.

And I often wonder.