Dr. Lisa Miller: Why Arguing Yourself Into Happier Thoughts Is The Wrong Fix

A spiritual life is 80% protective. against addiction, 90% protective. against the epidemic of our time, depression. Why should someone who's never. considered themselves spiritual even. consider tapping into their. spirituality? >> Spirituality can fulfill our [music]. deepest calling. It allows us to see. where the universe is guiding us and. then do something about it. Do you. believe everything happens for a reason? Shift from asking, "Why [music] is this. happening to me?" to "How is this.

happening for me?". Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the place you come to become a. happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest on On Purpose is Dr. Lisa. Miller, psychologist, Columbia. professor, and author of The Awakened. Brain. We're going to explore the. science of spirituality and how. connecting with something bigger can. transform your mental health, resilience, and sense of purpose. If.

you've felt stuck or disconnected, this. conversation will help you see life. through a more awakened mind. If you're. listening and loving the conversation, please do go and grab a copy of The. Awakened Brain, The New Science of. Spirituality and Our Quest for an. Inspired Life by Dr. Lisa Miller. Please. welcome to On Purpose, Lisa. Lisa, it's. great to have you here. Jay, it's so. great to be here. Your whole studio. feels full of peace and love. >> Aw, well, that makes me very happy. Thank you for saying that. It means the.

world to me. My My first question for. you is, if someone was to listen to our. conversation today and to apply the. things you share and say, how would. their life change? Immediately, we can awaken to the. reality that every single one of us is. loved, held, guided, and never alone. This is not a belief, this is our. inborn, natural, spiritual awareness. One of the things I find interesting. about your work and why I wanted to have. you on the show is because.

I've always felt for a long time that. there are a lot of people who identify. with being scientific and may not feel. spiritual. And then there are other people who. identify as being spiritual but don't. feel scientific. And the reality is that. science and spirituality are far closer. in their work and their ability to. synchronize than we actually believe. And I love that you bring these two. together. Can you talk to me about how. you've been studying spirituality in a. scientific way and how science can back.

up the claim you just made that we could. live a life knowing that we're not. alone, that we're cared for, that God, the universe, a higher power is always. there with us. How does science show. that? So Jay, you're so right. For the. longest time, we've had two camps of. people. One camp said, "I am a very. scientific person. I only take to be. true that which is rigorously shown by. science. So, what is this spirituality. stuff?" And then the other camp said, "I. am a deeply spiritual, perhaps spiritual. and religious person. I know this in my.

heart to be true. I don't care what. science can or cannot show." Finally, science and spirituality do go. hand-in-hand. Science is only a lens. It's a lens of witness, whether it's a. telescope or a microscope or an MRI. study. And we can point our lens at a great. number of questions including. the impact of lived human spirituality. onto the rest of our lives. And including the deep nature of.

spirituality in every single one of us. and the journey through which across our. life spans spirituality burgeons and. develops. Science is actually not antithetical to. spirituality. Science can contribute to. a deepening of spirituality. Mhm. Absolutely. Why do you I people right now are moving. away from organized religion and moving. towards spirituality. Well, there's. definitely a trend right now that. particularly Gen Z is so hungry for.

spiritual life because sadly over the. past two or three decades our culture. has gotten more and more silent. More. really have had an ice age over the past. three decades of spiritual life in the. center of society. Our public square has. experienced an ice age of 30 years when. it comes to spiritual life. There is now a whole generation Gen Z. that is saying, you know, I know there's. more. I feel this tremendous love and I.

wonder where to take it, what to do with. it. My deep inner wisdom, my gut. instinct is telling me information and. there's nowhere in school that I've. learned where this information comes. from. The only way to realize who we are is to. own our birthright which is our inborn. natural spirituality. Spirituality. [snorts]. is not a belief. It is an inborn deep. seat of perception. Spirituality is not. a theory or a belief. Spirituality is a. perception that is hardwired in our.

brain. Spirituality, according to. science, we know three things about. spiritual life. One, every human being. on earth is born naturally spiritual. No matter what our tradition, whether. I'm Hindu, Catholic, Jewish, or. spiritual not religious, every single. human being on earth is born a naturally. spiritual being. Two, there are even. circuits in the brain. One spiritual brain and everyone on. earth has it.

Three, although spirituality is inborn, it is. 1/3 inborn, 2/3 environmentally shaped, which means we are invited to do our. part in strengthening the muscle and. building our gift of natural spiritual. awareness. The [snorts] question is not am I. spiritual? You already are spiritual. The question, the real question, is how. do you wish to accept the invitation? How do you wish to build your spiritual. life? Why should someone who's never.

considered themselves spiritual up until. this point even consider tapping into. their spirituality? Why should they do. that? The data is so strong that it. blinds the eye. A strong spiritual life is 80%. protective against addiction, 90% protective against depression when. we're otherwise at high risk, 82% protective against the epidemic of. our time, which tragically is suicide. A young person's more likely to die by. suicide than by what used to be the.

number one cause of death, which was. auto accidents. We have an epidemic of the diseases of. despair in most post-industrial. countries, and yet we also have the. antidote, which is strengthening the. muscle of our natural spiritual. awareness. Talk to me about the link. between spirituality and depression. What does someone who has a spiritual. life, what are they doing that's making. them less depressed? Depression is often. viewed only as a medical illness, but. that's actually an error. Very often.

people say, you know, I have depression. or I have addiction. That's a medical. biological condition in my brain. Spirituality is something else, it's. sort of ethereal. Actually, spirituality has circuits in. the brain. Any deep, profound human capacity. has circuits in the brain. The question is, how can we strengthen. our natural spirituality, body, mind, and soul, brain, mind, and soul? How can. we awaken our brain to move through.

depression, through addiction, to a more profound understanding of. life? >> [snorts]. >> Depression is often the knock at the. door for a spiritual awakening. Depression doesn't mean we're off the. path. Depression means we are on the. path. Anxiety, even trauma, can be the. first phase towards looking more deeply. at life, widening our lens, starting to. feel a presence in our heart, authorize. our inner knowing. Suffering makes us more sensitive.

Suffering makes us ask bigger questions. Ultimately, suffering widens the lens. and suddenly we see we let into the. aperture a frequency of light we hadn't. seen before, which is the fact that. every single bit of our lives is cast in. divinity. From the view of science, when. depression is met with a spiritual. response, what God are you do you ask of. me? What higher power are you revealing. to me? How might I love more deeply. despite betrayal? How might I forgive.

and therefore release myself. from the entrapment of anger. When we. cultivate a spiritual response to. depression, to sorrow, betrayal, we literally strengthen regions of the. brain for spiritual awareness. Next time. around, next time there's a hailstorm. and I encounter depression, despair, betrayal, a spiritual response is built. and ready in the brain. We are more able. to bring to life's challenges a. spiritual way of knowing. We are more.

prepared to bring an awakened perception. to life's disappointments and hardships. The way you talk about spirituality. right now, it sounds like a response, a. way of responding to stress, trauma, and. pain. How would you define what being. spiritual means and looks like as a. whole as opposed to just that response? Through the lens of science, spirituality is an inborn perception, but it is 1/3 inborn, 2/3 incoming upon.

us to cultivate. >> [snorts]. >> From the lens of science, spirituality. is an inborn seat of awareness through. which we perceive. that we are loved, we are guided, and we. are never alone. And for each of those. core components of spiritual awareness, there's a circuit in the brain. We are loved and held is the bonding. network. Same bonding network for which. as young children we felt loved and held. by our parents or grandparents. We are guided. There's a shift from a.

very narrow I've got to have it dorsal. to a bottom-up ventral big wide lens. attention network. Never alone, the. parietal that puts in and out hard. boundaries that lets us know we're. alone and distinct and unique and at. every instant also part of this great. unit of reality, the family of life. Loved, held, guided, never alone is the. deep natural spiritual perception built. into every single one of our brains.

It's now up to us to awaken our brain. and bear witness. to the actual love, guidance, and. presence that's written into life. The. divinity written into life, who I call. God, but everyone has their sacred name. Jesus, Hashem, Allah, the universe. The most interesting finding in science, I think, is that just as the brain is. wired to perceive we are loved, held, guided, and never alone. We are built to perceive something real,

which is the nature of life shows up to. be loving, holding, guiding, and never. leave us alone. It's simply up to us. then. to strengthen our perception. Every day. of our lives we have the opportunity to. be in a deep dialogue with the divinity. in life. But we have to build the muscle. of spiritual awareness. We have to. awaken our brain. What about someone who. says, "I don't have time for. spirituality. I don't really need it. I'm fine.". What are they missing out on? On the one. hand, spirituality is protective against.

some of the most prevalent forms of. suffering right now, depression, addiction, even suicide. But even [snorts]. if it were not for its mental health. benefits, spirituality in and of itself. opens the double door to an entirely. different journey through life. If you. want to roll out the red carpet in your. life, deepen your seat of spiritual. awareness, awaken your brain, and. suddenly we move from a very narrow. understanding of.

who am I, how well have I done, do I. have enough money, am I well known. enough, you know, what all the sort of. markers of outwardness, to a profound. dialogue with life. Not what do I want. and how am I going to get it, which I. call achieving awareness. We're liberated from achieving. awareness, and we can then start to ask, "Hey, what is life showing me now? What is the. universe revealing to me now?" Life. becomes less of a shopping list and less.

of a hallway of trophies, and instead. life becomes a very awesome, surprising. adventure. We don't get the life we. want. That would be way too small a. life. We get the life, if we're an open. system, awakened, that is far greater, a much bigger life. We get an inspired life. And I think. that's what's hard for people because. the hallway of trophies or the grocery. list feels tangible, and you know what. that means. And so it's within our control, and when.

something's within our control, we feel. more directed towards it. Whereas when. we hear about a quest or a journey or. inspiration, it feels so vague that. you're like, "Well, what does that even. mean?" May we do a practice? Of course. Okay, lovely. This is a practice that. honors exactly, Jay, what you just said. The difference between our laundry list, our grocery list, our trophy hall, and. instead, what really is the road of. life? Okay? Good. Let's Let's sit. 90 seconds. I I invite you to take two breaths and.

clear out your inner space. I invite you to think of a time where. you wanted something so badly. That red. door was yours. It was him or her or. them to say yes. It was that job, that. school, that home. So you did everything right. Planned it, A plus B plus C, researched it, ready to. close the deal, you reach for your red. door. But it stuck.

And you can't believe it stuck cuz. you've done everything right. A plus B. plus C. You might kick the door, be. angry, or even depressed. But because the red door is stuck, you. shift. 20, 40, 110°. over there. Over there is a wide-open. splendid yellow door. You might have never heard of yellow. doors, didn't know they exist. On the. other side of the open yellow door is a. landscape you had yet to imagine.

Someone. who makes you feel alive. A job where. your boss sees you in a way you didn't. even know you were capable. A community where you finally belong. The yellow door was not what you had. wanted. It was better, far better. The. yellow door was far better and better. for you. So now as you sit back and you think, "Wow, stuck red door, hairpin turned,

taking me to that surprising wide-open. yellow door. that has everything to do with who you. are. and where you are today.". Was there anyone there at that hairpin. turn? A trail angel pointing you to the yellow. door. It could have been a counselor, a. therapist. It could have been someone. you met for 2 minutes. at the coffee shop or a story from a. friend or grandparent, the trail angel. pointing you to the open yellow door.

And finally, sitting way back stuck red. door, hairpin turn trail angel, wide open. yellow door. that has so much to do with who you are. How really. are the most important parts of our. lives found? Sure, we have to do our. part and plan and try, but is it really. through radical control. that our lives are formed? Or are we less makers of our paths.

and more discoverers. of our journey? Where. in your road of life. is your higher power, God, the force? Is. your higher power in the wide open. yellow door and the stuck red door? Is your higher power in the trail angel? And your ability to be an open system in. dialogue with the deepest force of life. through which we are guided and loved?

Is it possible you've already been. on a spiritual journey, a great adventure? And I invite you back. Did you relate? Absolutely. So many times. Was there a red door and a yellow door. you might share? >> Absolutely.

For sure. I could I could picture. I pictured a particular moment in my. life, but I could have pinned it to so. many. that I felt a red door not open. and a yellow door open that was far. better than the red door I ever. imagined. And the yellow door was one. that I would never ever have come up. with even if I tried my hardest if I. tried to come up with it myself and. there was definitely a spiritual mentor. guiding me. towards. the opening of other doors that I may. not have thought of.

And so every single part of what you. said I could very very clearly visualize. it. Absolutely. And so what you're saying or what I what. I'm gathering from that for our audience. who hopefully did it as well. is that if you actually reflect upon. your life. you notice that you've already lived the. adventure. And so the adventure's already been. a life for you and if you can notice. that and remember it then you can. recognize that this next red door that.

you are now stuck on. to have a spiritual experience of it and. look for that yellow door. is going to be a healthier more powerful. way to live. That disappointment of the. stuck red door kicking the red door is. actually the beginning Mhm. of your. discovery of the yellow door. Mhm. So. the next time there's a very. disappointing depressing shut red door. you're invited to ask hey I wonder where. I might see the yellow door. Eyes wide open. Mhm.

We're already on a great spiritual. adventure. When we choose to listen to our trail. angels, when we pay attention to. synchronicity, when we listen to the. whisper of the voice of God in our heart. and our prayer life or in our meditation. life then we have a choice. to participate. in the sacred adventure. Jay many people say to me, you know, I. see synchronicities but I don't know if. they're real. I see trail angels but I. don't really know what it means. What do.

I do with that? Well when we pay. attention to synchronicity and say wait. wait a minute. You know, I was just. thinking of Jay and then I got this. wonderful invitation to join him on the. podcast. I was just reading Jay's book. and now I met someone who's also reading. Jay's book. When we notice the. confluence. in our lives that are synchronicities. and say, "Hey, wait a minute. That's. real." We authorize ourselves as. knowers, as spiritual knowers. We awaken. and say, "That synchronicity is real.".

Let me reflect, point two, on what this. might mean right here, right now in. terms of what I was just thinking, what. I was just doing. Three, let me act on this synchronicity, right? Authorize ourselves, reflect, and act. Once we act, Jay, we are participating. in the miracle. We are contributors in. our road of life. The spiritual. adventure heats up. It is that much more. splendid when we say yes to the yellow.

door. I'm going to cross into it. I don't hope for people that they get. their red door. I hope for people. that we get our yellow door. But we do have to say yes to the. guidance. Thank you, trail angel. Wow, I'll go somewhere I've never gone. before. I'll cross the threshold of that. yellow door. And what's on the other. side is not what I wanted, it is so much. better. It is someone who loves me in a way I. didn't know I could be loved. It is a. school that's more right for me, not my.

first choice, not my fifth choice. It. was the perfect choice. Or it's a mentor, a guide who saw a. possibility I didn't see in myself. If. someone's listening right now and. they're feeling completely lost and. stuck and out of touch with that. spiritual self, where would you suggest. they start? The whisper of a hunch that's already in. you, telling you say yes to the trail. angel. That you intuit that that red door stuck.

for a reason. Hey, what if you really take seriously. your deep inner wisdom, that whisper of. a hunch. What if you really take. seriously that synchronicity? You know, many people say, "You know, I I thought that that synchronicity was. real and my boyfriend told me I was. crazy. Or I thought that this spiritual. voice I was hearing was real and people. told me I was nuts. But you know what? What if instead you just for one moment. honor. the wisdom that is born inside of you,

that you are a splendid spiritual being. already built to see and know and be. touched by God's presence. You're ready. to go. Once we authorize ourselves as spiritual. knowers, then the red carpet rolls out. before us because we then are in. dialogue with a loving guiding universe. We then are being guided and that's an. entirely different life. That's a. spiritual adventure. Can you tell me. about how having a spiritual life. positively affects our mental health?

Yes. Well, a spiritual life says, "No. matter what comes to me, whether it's. what I wanted or didn't want. It could. be, you know, my partner betrays me. It. could be I didn't succeed at work as I. had intended. It could be that my best. friend has gotten busy and doesn't have. time for me. The disappointments or they. could be more serious. traumas. fall in all of our lives. But our ability to then say, "Okay, even in my darkest hour, I know that I'm. not falling through an abyss. I'm not.

falling through a black hole. There's a. buoyancy. I'm caught." Who caught us? That's the universe. That's God who. caught you. Even in our darkest hour, I don't know. if I should go left, right, or center. You don't need to know. Hand it over. You don't need to make life's biggest. decisions. Hand them over to the deep. force of life and your direction is. revealed. But you do have to make a. choice and the choice is to pay. attention, authorize your knowing, and. then act. What do you mean by hand it. over? Because I feel Does that mean I do.

nothing? Does that mean I Right. Very. good point. So, every one of us is born. with two forms of knowing. Achieving. awareness, which is tactic strategy, how. to close the deal. And awaken awareness, through which we. perceive life's guidance, the deeper. direction and love in life. We need. both. We can set our North Star through. an awakened understanding. Ah, the. synchronicity is guiding me to come and. follow the path to the right. But how do. I turn right? Well, I need tactics and.

strategy. Any. gift from God, a vision of who I'm to. become, I'm a healer, I'm someone who's. going to serve, I'm someone who's going. to take care of children, I'm someone. who wants to invent and create, then. needs to be executed. Achieving awareness is how we lay down. our contributions. Awaken awareness is how we find our. direction. Achieving awareness allows us. to implement, to really make a. difference. Spirituality has two. directions. One is the vertical, through.

which we experience inspiration, guidance, and love. The other is the. horizontal, through which we lay down. and contribute love and guidance. Inspiration comes often through. awakening. Contribution takes tactics, takes strategy. Children of the light. need wonderful sets of skills. I love. that approach. I'm so glad you said we. needed both. I've always felt that. sometimes spirituality and religion have. both had this. bad misconception where people see it as. a crutch because it's like, "Oh, yeah, well, I'm just going to hand everything.

over to the universe and I'm not going. to do anything about it.". And that almost feels spiritual, it. sounds detached, but actually it isn't. It's. almost irresponsible. Well, how we treat. one another is a spiritual choice, right? Just as we're loved and guided by. source, by the universe, we can choose. to be loving and guiding to one another. Both are forms of a an awakened. relationship, an awakened relationship. to behold God and a relationship to.

behold God in you. If I see you, my brother, as an. expression, like a ray from the same sun. of God, the universe, then our relationship becomes an. awakened relationship. We can have an. awakened relationship with God. We can. have an awakened relationship to one. another. It's very easy to stay on the. mountaintop where it feels whole, and. glorious, and bright. But Jay, what you've done in choosing to. come down the mountain and be whole and.

bright here on Earth towards fellow. living beings. is itself a profound act of awakened. spirituality. Well, I mean, for me, I'd actually say. that it was I was fortunate because I. gained more conviction. in the teachings that I learned during. my time as a monk in the real world. Because putting them into practice was. far more the real test and the real. exam. It's almost like I learned all of. these things in school.

And then when I came to the real world. and actually had to apply them and I saw. them work, it only gave me more faith. and conviction that what I'd learned was. valuable and deep and profound. Whereas, if you only ever used them in the. training ground, you don't ever get to. see how powerful they are, if that makes. sense. Relational spirituality. So, will. you tell a story or an example? Was. there a moment where you saw karma. happen or One of my favorite statements. uh from the Vedic traditions is that. when you protect your purpose, your.

purpose protects you. And I remember reading and studying that. for a while and I and I was always. trying to dissect the statement to. understand what it meant. And I was always fascinated by the word. protect. Because I think in the Western. world, we always talk about living our. purpose or finding our purpose or. discover your purpose. And here the. ancient Eastern wisdom was saying. protect your purpose, which means you. already have it. Right? You protect what. you have. You don't protect something. you don't own. So this idea that you. already had a purpose and your job was.

to protect it, I started to notice all. the ways in which I wasn't protecting my. purpose. >> Uh. And when I was in the world of work, I saw that in the world of work they. were trying to get us to be a certain. way. Hm. But there was a part of me. inside me that was like, "But that's not. who you are." Hm. Like this is who you. are. This is your talent. This is your. gift. This is your skill. This is your. values. Be that. And that inner voice of. knowing that that soft quiet voice that. was like, "No, don't just become you. know, the what do you call it? Don't.

just become the robot version of. yourself. Focus on becoming the true. version of yourself." And that took a. lot of courage and stress because. everyone around you is doing the same. thing and you're pulling away. But I saw. that as protecting my purpose. And. having lived that and now living my. purpose fully, I saw that if I didn't. protect it at that time, I would have. just given it away and foregone my. purpose. Is that purpose built into you? Is that a divine purpose? I believe so. I believe so because I didn't come up.

with it one day. It didn't, you know, it. wasn't something that I sat down and. figured out. It was something that was. revealed. >> Hm. And I think a lot of what I've. pursued in my life has been revealed. through inner connection, not There are. There are some There is Yeah, there are. strategic elements of the vehicle. through which it's disseminated. >> Right. So for example, the podcast, I. felt excited about doing a podcast, but. I also saw that a podcast was a great. way of connecting with people and having. amazing conversations like this one. And.

so that becomes the achieved awareness, as you called it. >> The strategic part, but the desire to. want to spread wisdom, that was not. strategic at all. That was an inner. calling. I didn't I I didn't come up. with that. Like that didn't It wasn't my. intelligence that went, "Yeah, that's. what I meant to do." It was it was. revealed if that makes sense. Profoundly. And we all have our spiritual calling. Mhm. You know, as you put so. beautifully, you are a natural. communicator. >> [snorts]. >> We all have our gifts. And we also have.

our areas that are not gifts. For sure. In balance that is not a win and a lose, those are both wins because both our. strengths and our not strengths allow us. to discern our true calling. Where. as a child of infinite worth, as a soul. on earth, as a being of God of infinite. worth, how do I discern my calling? How? How do I discern? And I think what. you've said so beautifully, our calling. is revealed. There's a deep inner wisdom.

when we listen to the whisper of the. hunch inside of us. There is a purpose. to us much greater. than our traits, than our successes, than our outwardness. There's soul has a. purpose. How do we become better listeners to. that inner guidance because I feel that. the more we ignore it, the quieter it. gets. And a lot of us for many years. have had to ignore it whether it was. because of parent expectations or. outward forces or just the busyness of. life. And all of a sudden you're now 30.

years old, 40 years old, 50 years old. and you're thinking. I don't even know what I'm meant to do. Like they're talking about revealing and. finding but I don't have a clue. What do. we do? How do we listen better? May we. do another practice? >> I love it. It's so easy. Yeah. This is a practice I always thank my. teacher from the late Dr. Gary Weaver. I. invite you again 90 seconds to take two. breaths. Clear out your inner space.

I invite you to set before you a table. This is your table. And to your table, you may invite anyone. living or deceased who truly has your. best interest in mind. Anybody living or deceased who truly has. your best interest in mind.

And with them all sitting there. ask them if they love you. Ask them if they love you. And now you may invite your higher self. the part of you. that is so much more than anything you. may have done or not done. anything you have or don't have, your.

true eternal higher self. And ask you if you love you. Ask you if you love you. And now finally you may invite your. higher power. Whatever your word, however you know, your higher power. And ask if they love you. Ask if they love you.

And now with all of those people sitting. here right now. what did they need to share? What do they need to tell you now? What. do you need to know? What do they say to you now?

>> When you're ready, I invite you back. How did you experience that? It was really clear who I picked at the. table. That was easy. And then. Who was there? My spiritual teacher and.

his spiritual teacher who passed away. who I never met. So, those are the two. people I chose. So, my spiritual teacher. is still alive and then his teacher who. I never met. Um but they were both at. the table. And. I definitely feel loved by them. Like. that's not even a It's not It's like. beyond I feel overflowing over whelmed. with the amount of love I feel from both. of them. And then when you ask me the question of. do I love myself, I felt.

very grateful that I have the ability to. do that. Um And then when you asked me about what. I need to hear from them and felt very. clear to me that. I mean, for me it was, you know, to. continue doing what I'm doing to. to be. continue to be a vessel and an. instrument for this wisdom and work that. I'm doing. And to know that I'm always protected. And so, it was very clear. And I'm so excited to hear what my. audience gained from their reflection.

from that because. I feel what you gave us there was a. really, really beautiful way of. listening. Which feels like no matter whether you. consider yourself spiritual or not, you'd be able to connect to that. Because the idea of having dinner or. being at a table with people you know. and love and love you. is something that feels very real. I love that as an exercise for people to. listen more deeply. It's That's That's. really brilliant. It's so beautiful from. your teacher as well, sir. A gift from.

the late after going away. >> Yeah, what. >> an incredible meditation. I really want. you all who are listening and watching. at home. to share with me your reflections as I'm. sharing mine through these meditations. because. it's. yeah, I'm I'm really excited to hear. what what people gain from them. And and. I'm assuming that this exercise can be. done at any time when people are feeling. disconnected from that inner voice. >> At any time we have a big decision to. make or if we're feeling despairing and. alone, we can call council.

Council is always present and ready to. convene. Those who truly have your best. interest in mind living or deceased will. always show up. And who shows up may. change depending on where we are in the. road of life, what guidance we might. need. For example, my youngest child is. an adventurer. She ran a 200-mile. ultra-marathon. She walked across Japan. Who watches over her is her. great-grandfather, my grandfather Bell,

himself an outdoorsman. He would likely. show up at her council. But my other child who's 23 and living. in New York and making movies, who would. show up at hers probably her artistic. great-grandmother, who herself loved language and story. So, we're loved by all of our ancestors, but we do have. guides. We do have profoundly present. sacred guides. Living and deceased, these are spiritual relationships. And.

Jay, it's so interesting as we look. through the lens of science, the same. way that a connection to God protects us. against depression, a relationship to. our ancestors protects us against. depression. >> Wow. Every single person at the table. who loves us, who guides us, who. protects us. is a real relationship. And when we. awaken. to the true sacred relationships. surrounding us, we are guided into a far greater.

spiritual adventure, and we are less. depressed and addicted because the bumps. in the road, those are absolutely. essential for the deeper path that we. each of us journeys. I love them. So. glad we did that. Thank you for sharing. that with me. Uh I was thinking about it from the. scientific perspective. You've done. You've done brain scans where people. recalled profound spiritual experiences. Could you give us some examples of. those? And what did you see happening in. the brain? Jay, we asked people of all different.

faith traditions. So some people were. Christian, others were Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, spiritual, but not religious. And no matter what tradition someone may. observe or not observe, spiritual but. not religious, the same neural circuits. run in our brain when we encounter God, the deep force of life. We asked people a very simple question. No one was confused by the question. We. asked people, Gen Z really, we asked,

"Tell us about a time where you were. really struggling in life, where you. felt disconnected or frustrated or lost, or you felt not enough, that you'd. failed or were somehow unworthy, felt. like a loser." And. nobody was confused by that question. And then part two, we said, "And in your. struggle, you turned to God, you walked through. nature, you meditated or prayed or. suddenly, perhaps even unsolicited, you. felt touched by sacred presence.

And the road of life took a turn. Tell. us about a time that started out. difficult, but through the inspiration. and guidance of God took a different. turn." We've asked this question of. hundreds of young adults. No one's ever. been confused. But about half say, "Wow, I'm so glad. you asked cuz no one's ever asked me. that before." Mhm. A spiritually. non-conversant society is silencing. our whole rising generation of Gen Z. They are exquisitely gifted and they are. not being listened to. We welcome people. into the MRI machine.

They tell the story that they've told so. many times about being touched by their. higher presence. They tell the story. that they'd previously shared with us. about being touched by the higher. presence and we then play back their own. story in their own voice in their ears. inside the MRI machine. And what we saw was extraordinary. As we. walk through a spiritual experience, the. same neural correlates come online in. every single person. It doesn't matter.

if I'm Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Catholic, spiritual but not religious, nature is my cathedral. The same neural. correlates run and they are the bonding. network. We perceive that suddenly at. that inflection point where we feel. God's presence, we are loved and held. The bonding. network comes up online. Suddenly at the. inflection point we know that we are. guided. And suddenly the parietal starts putting. in and out hard boundaries letting us.

know that we are never alone, loved and. guided, never alone. Every single one of us is able to. perceive that we are loved, held, guided. and never alone. What do these stories. sound like? >> [snorts]. >> You know, I just got turned down at. seven out of eight colleges. I'm feeling. like such a loser. I'm never going to. get into college like my parents and my. grandparents wanted me to and I'm. walking down the street feeling. completely unworthy. I really wanted to. be a nurse. I'm not getting into nursing. school. Eight out of nine rejections.

Nursing school may not be in the cards. for me. But then I see light in the leaves and I. know I will be a healer in the way that. God has intended for me. The profound rearrangement of meaning, the aha, the awakening, the illumination that speaks to a. deeper, wiser part of ourselves. Or I was going to get married. I dated a. boy for 3 years in college. I even had a promise ring. We were going. to get married the year after we.

graduated. And then the week before. graduation, he called it off. I've never. felt so unloved and unlovable. I felt so. unattractive, so undesirable. But then I went home. And sitting in the pews of my childhood. house of worship, by my parents, by my. grandparents, I suddenly felt my family's love. And then I felt a greater love. I felt. God's love. And I knew yes, I will love again. Jade, so many young people stop at the.

pain. So many of us, and can happen to. any of us, stop at the pain. But the. pain is actually an invitation. It's a. banging at the door. to listen for the illumination. And the brain is built, just like a. catch in the catcher's mitt, sure as. day, to receive the guidance, to catch the. illumination. The Bhagavad Gita, which. is the text of India, the primary. spiritual text of India,

it's based on a battlefield. It's a. historic story about the best archer in. the world who's on a battlefield, and. he's having to fight his family, which. he's pretty sad about, doesn't want to. And he's actually feeling anxious. And. that's the beginning of his awakening. conversation with God, called Krishna, who's his charioteer, who's actually. directing and driving his chariot on the. battlefield. And they have this divine conversation.

that lasts these 700 verses of the. Bhagavad Gita, 45-minute conversation. And it's all about learning, but it all. starts like anxiety is the beginning of. inquiry. And what I find fascinating. about that, having studied it for many. years, is that we live in a world where. we think of anxiety and these things as. bad, where we've got to suppress them or. push them away or. never have them again, when in fact it's. almost like life is designed in a way to. get them to ask the right questions.

And we almost because sometimes it's so. painful, we don't know how to rise to a. deeper question because it feels so. hard. So. talk to me about that and reflect on. that for me, and how do we do that? >> Jay, in that way, yes. Depression is the opening to. transcendence. Depression does not make us smaller. When we say yes, what is life showing me now? What questions come to my heart that I. wouldn't have asked otherwise?

Why am I feeling so anxious? What do I. fear losing? Why does it hurt so badly? Did I maybe. You know, there's a blind spot, just. like we have a blind spot in our car, between the person. that I want to be and think I am, and the person that I may actually be. living out, >> Mhm. and that blind spot is the zone for. growth. That's our opportunity. When there's a big blind spot, suffering. is an invitation to help narrow the. blind spot. How can I be more loving or.

maybe need to be more autonomous, whatever the welcome gift is. The blind. spot is not a moral failing, it's an. invitation for for growth and spiritual. growth. Well, the same is true in our. relationship to God or the higher power. There's a blind spot between the sense. of the world as we know it and the. profound sacred world as it really is. Suffering is an invitation to narrow the. blind spot and move more ever more into. a world that is one in which we seek.

God's guidance, know each other from a. spiritual you are my brother, you are my. sister. It doesn't matter if you happen. to have similar different views. politically or about anything else for. that matter. You're my brother. The last. thing I'd want to do is limit our lives. to other people's ideas when in fact we. have an ultimate opportunity for an. authentic direct spiritual relationship. with every single person around us. Do you believe everything happens for a. reason?

I believe that we can shift from asking. why is this happening to me to how is. this happening for me? So despite its origin, every moment is. an opportunity for profound spiritual. awakening. We can bring a spiritual lens. and say, "Ah, I can feel God's presence even now in. this moment of trauma and quaking. I do not fall through the abyss. God is. holding me. I can bring my deep perception of the.

guidance written into life and say, "I've never encountered this before. You. know, my father just died. I don't know. how to live in this world without my. father.". But wait a minute. My father can be a. conduit to God the Father, God the. Mother and start to evermore see the. guidance written into life. So. when we have and it's a choice, a. spiritual response to whatever comes, we. can ask the question, "How is this. happening for me?" And that's a great.

way of checking in with our intuition as. well. And listening to our intuition. That little whisper of a hunch. You. know, Jay, there are regions in the. brain for intuition. There are regions. in the brain for mystical awareness. These are valid hardwired forms of. knowing. When we ignore this sure fire. knowledge, it's to our peril and those. around us. We're being given guidance. And certainly we're being pointed in. life's pointing us to the double door. for much more interesting life. So.

you you it's it's worth asking, "Hey, wait a minute. What was the most. important decision. that you ever made in your life? Was it. about your family? Was it about your. business? Was it a moral decision? What. was the most important decision. that you ever made in your life? And was that made narrowly from adding. up the pros and cons and making a long. list of the 18 points? Or did you turn to a deeper form of. knowing? Intuition, inspiration,

mystical awareness. Being touched in meditation or prayer. life. Was there an awakened knowing that. guided your most important decision? And. how do you know the difference? How do. you know if you're listening to your gut. or your fear? The more we pay attention. to our awakened awareness, the more we. become pitch perfect. So, at first, it. might feel a little rusty or a little. awkward, but the more we say yes, that. guidance feels real. I'm going to act on. it. And then, sure enough, the proof is.

in the pudding. Mhm. When we do act on. synchronicity, a hunch, a mystical. awareness, who should come around the. corner but the answer to our quandary? Mhm. Right? The There is no difference. between internal awareness and external. unfolding. Consciousness is in us, through us, and around us. When we. listen to the guidance, so-called. internally, we are on the path to the. answers to our quandaries externally. >> Mhm. You've used God quite often in our. conversation today.

>> My word is God. >> Yes. And I wanted to ask you, do you. have to believe in God to be spiritual? Mhm. I think to be spiritual, we only need to. listen. to how the deepest force in life touches. and guides us. What you call that deepest force in life. and how you fashion that conceptually. is very secondary. It's way downstream. from the foundational catch in the. catcher's mitt of perception, of. awareness, of the loving guidance.

To be spiritual is to pay attention to. the loving guidance that's already. there. And in fact, many people say, "You know, actually, the most important decision of. my life, that I did make through my intuition. Somehow I just knew in my heart that we. should move or not move, that we should. have a child or not have a child. I just. knew in my heart." Listening to our. awakened awareness brings an entirely. different life. When we listen to that.

whisper of a hunch, when we pay. attention to synchronicities, listening. to our awakened awareness brings forward. another life. Why? Because consciousness. is in us, through us, and around us. Awakened awareness allows us to hear the. guidance. that has everything to do with the. on-the-ground, real physical reality. that we're about to encounter, whether. that's a premonition or guidance to find. the people in our lives. We, in our own family, Jay, we struggled. My husband and I struggled.

for 5 years looking for our child. We. could not find our child, and it was. profoundly depressing to me. And my husband was so depressed I found. him on the floor one night. He was. shaking. My, you know, big, strong. husband was literally crying and shaking. because no children had come into our. lives. I went to every top fertility. doctor in the country. I went to the. team that had the highest rates of. conception. I went to the team up and.

down the East Coast that invented in. vitro. And yet nobody came. And it was only once I started paying. attention to the synchronicities. and the guidance, the unprobabilistic. events in my life, and then started having mystical. experiences. that to To I said, "Yes, this is real. information that we followed the golden. thread and found our child on the other. side of the earth, a beautiful boy.

who was, of course, our spiritual child. Now, if I just took spirituality as a. nice feeling or something that happens. inside of me or as a way of coping, it. would have nothing to say about an. action plan in the world. But. spirituality is highly practical, actionable guidance through which we can. fulfill our deepest calling, our true. path, and support the calling of those. around us. My son would still be in an. orphanage if I didn't think.

synchronicities were real. >> [snorts]. >> My husband and I would not be parents if. I didn't think synchronicities were. real. Spirituality is not just a nice thing or. icing on the cake. It is the bedrock. It. is the only landscape through which we. can live our lives in a whole and. radiant way. And that's also you. accepting that yellow door even in that. scenario. The glorious yellow door, right. >> yellow door because spirituality doesn't. mean everything you want and like you. talked about earlier with the grocery. list, spirituality doesn't mean that it.

happens how I want it to happen when it. happens. Like that's not spirituality. No, no, it's not a transaction. Yeah. Which I think is so much of the. misconception of not only how. spirituality is spoken about today, but. people's belief that if I'm spiritual. Well, that's the ego driving the bus, right? If I think that because I'm. spiritual, I'm going to get pregnant. right away. If I think that because I'm. spiritual, my hopes and dreams are going. to all come true, that's actually putting myself in the.

driver's seat and saying, me and me. alone, I know the way. But spirituality actually is the ability. to look and see what the universe is. saying and then act. I mean, we don't. sit home eating ice cream and do. nothing. Spirituality allows us to see. where the universe is guiding us and. then do something about it. Paying. attention to synchronicity and then. acting allows us to be part of the. miracle. Listening to a mystical. experience, knowing that a visitation is. real and then acting allows us to.

collaborate in the miracle. Allows us to. be actors in a divine journey. So let's. talk about two practical things because. you said spirituality is actually. practical. >> Very practical. >> to talk about two areas of our life that. I think a lot of our audience struggles. with or is looking for. And so let's. start with love first of all. So much of. our audience is looking for love. People. are exhausted with dating right now. People are struggling with there's. plenty of fish in the sea. There's just.

ultimate unlimited options. How can. becoming more spiritual help you find. love? Oh. So you know, many people say, "I. listened to this gut instinct. I'd never. been to that bar before. I'd never been. sans, but I just felt like somehow I. should go. You know, my friend was. lonely. She asked me to meet her and it. was the right thing to do and I went.". And sure enough, that night I met the. guy who I eventually married. And he. never went to that bar either. Far too. unprobabilistic to have happened by.

chance. Or you know what? I've always. been kind of sheepish about those. platforms. I didn't know if I'd go on, but I finally did and do you know what? My husband never wanted to use those. platforms either, but he did and we. found each other. These unprobabilistic. meetings, these guided, inspired, really. meant to be guided, inspired meetings. are extraordinary for igniting love. Are. extraordinary for guiding us against all. odds to find each other in a big. universe, through all space and time.

But then, that's only part one. That. love is divinely guided. Part two is. that we then need to put divinity into. the relationship. It is a big roll up. the sleeves and do our job. Love someone. even when they're difficult. Love. someone more deeply when they are at. their most irascible and struggling. No, you know, is there something I'm. doing right now in the relationship. that's starving the relationship?

I'll give you an example, you know, let's start at home. >> [snorts]. >> I remember my husband and I went through. good, you know, it wasn't just 3 days, maybe 3 weeks pushing a month of. stand-offishness, you know, not arguing, just distance. And I was thinking, you. know, why does it feel so empty, so. stale in here? Why is there a latent. tension in the air? You know, and you. know, we'd even sort of find a way to not eat. dinner at the same time together, you. know, and he'd eat his special meal and. I'd eat my special meal. I had a sense, Jay, that somehow.

I didn't know the way back to him and he. didn't know the way back to me. So, I effectively took our stand-off to. counsel. I asked my higher power. And it for me, the word is God. I prayed. to God and I said, you know, there is. this stand-off. You know, please fill my. heart with love. Might you show me how. we can find our way back to each other, God? And what came, Jay, was an image of my. husband looking nourished and ruddy and.

fully fed. And I realized I had been. starving him from my end. I'd been starving him emotionally. I'd. been so busy with my own thing. I'd been. so unwilling to pick up the rope on. whatever was dogging him. God gave me an image, the universe. presented before me an image of. possibility of how I might more nourish. my husband with love. We don't need to take. our failings, our shortcomings, our.

blind spots as moral failure. Our struggles are an invitation to turn. to life, turn to God, turn to our higher. power and say, "Might you fill my heart. with love and show me an image of. possibility?" And the direction is. indeed. very surprising. It is a yellow door. pointing us somewhere an answer to the. problem. Psychology has really gotten it. wrong. Psychology says that if I'm. feeling guilty about the standoff with.

my husband or if I'm feeling angry about. the thin emotional connection right now. we might be sharing, I should somehow come up with happier. thoughts about myself or happier. thoughts about us and our marriage. Much. of cognitive therapy is a debate to feel. better, bigger, stronger. But actually, just as when I touch a hot. stove, I feel a heat that's real. Our emotions are exquisite detectors of. the truth in our lives. We can take that. truth, even if it's a little bitter to.

the taste, and hand that over to the. force of life and say, "With deep love, please will you show me possibility? Might I ask for direction, source of. life, who I call God?" And the image. that comes or the synchronicity to. unfold or the unlikely turn of events. is indeed the opening of the yellow. door. It expands us in our perception. to awaken and be more loving. What if. you're spiritual. and your partner isn't? Can it work?

Yes. It is very important that. spirituality not make us judgmental. about the people around us. You know, I. think very often I hear, "I went on a. retreat or maybe I tried psilocybin or. I've been working on my meditation life. and my partner's just not spiritual. enough anymore. I have surpassed him.". Right? The spiritual road is not one in. which you dust people and leave them. behind. It's one in which you go back. and get them. Now, it may or may not be that your. partner wants to pursue a spiritual.

life, But, can you love them from a. spiritual place in your heart? Could you be married to a spiritual. civilian? And that's a question about the depths. and breadth of your own heart. Yeah. Does it make it harder because I feel. like there's a lot of. now what you hear a lot of is oh well, you know, if they're not spiritual, I. can't be with them. If they don't go to. therapy, I can't be with them. >> [clears throat]. >> Because people are wanting people to. have a certain level of emotional. maturity or emotional intelligence.

>> Uh-huh. That they hope comes with. spirituality or going to therapy. Yes. I. know many people feel that way. Most people feel that way. But, that's. actually not my view. My view is that. can we love someone for who they are and. where they are particularly if we've. made a commitment as a family or if. we've made some type of lifelong. commitment. It doesn't say to death do. us part doesn't mean until you have. surpassed them in your growth. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. It to death do us part doesn't.

mean that. this is not a contract. Marriage isn't a. deal. It's a calling. Can you love someone for who they are in. their journey? We don't need to marry. our identical twin. And we don't need to make a lifelong. commitment to an identical twin. In. fact, life's much more interesting when. we complement each other. My husband and. I have been married for 30 years. I've. had one spouse, one house, and one job. From which [snorts]. anything else is possible. Yeah. When we. get the bedrock of our lives set firm,

then we can really erect a meaningful. life together. Yeah. We're not identical twins. My husband. and I have different interests, we have. different vocabularies, and we probably. have different maps of reality. But, Jay, I absolutely adore him and I. know he loves me. Not because he's just like me. Really, but because he isn't. Yeah. I. can relate to that with me and my wife, too. Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah, even though we both have a. similar spiritual practice, the way we.

practice is so different and the way we. live it in the world is so different and. the way we express it is so different. and. I couldn't agree with you more that to. me when I was trained in spirituality, spirituality and non-judgment are almost. synonymous to me. in how you practice it. Like you can't. be spiritually enlightened or you can't. be spiritual and be judgmental. Those. two things just don't live together. And it's fascinating to me how when we.

start to become spiritual, how. judgmental we can be. >> [laughter]. >> Because it defeats the whole purpose of. everything you're doing as as a. spiritual person. You're trying to. become more compassionate to yourself. and others, more loving to yourself and. others, not passively, but. expanding your radius of care and how. much you can understand and comprehend. But so often it does exactly the. opposite. I had a. really good example of this. I invited, I don't know if you know who she is, but. I invited Julia Fox onto my podcast. I'm.

not sure if you're aware of who she is. And if not, I can give you a bit of. background. So, Julia Fox is known as an. actress and a model today, but her background is that she grew up. in an abusive home, became a. sex worker in her teens, then became a. dominatrix, then left that world, became an actress, a model, and is now 3 years celebrate, 3. years sober, and takes care of She's a. single mom to a young son. I'd read her book and I was blown away.

by her transformation. and saw it as truly spiritual and work. that she's done on discovering herself. and finding herself through all of these. phases of life. And it's really interesting because. before people had heard this version of. her, I brought her out on stage at an. event in New York at Madison Square. Garden at the theater. And the audience was like, "Jay, why. would you bring out Julia Fox?" Like. there was this judgement. And I addressed it cuz I could feel it. And I said, "Hey, just listen till the.

end of this conversation. And then you. can decide how you feel. It's your. choice, but stay with me." And we spoke. And then at the end of it, the amount of. people that came up to me and said, "Jay, I'm so sorry I judged at the. beginning, but actually I learned so. much from her. And she's so smart and. she's so eloquent. And she seems like. such a wonderful person.". >> from you, Jay, they learned love. They. learned radical, true, unconditional. love. And from her, Julia, they learned that. the spirit is far greater than our. struggles, the traps we may have been in. in our past. Our spirit is infinite. And.

look how she said, "Yes." And listened. to the guidance. And saw the love. What an extraordinary. teaching. Incredible. You know, it's so easy to say, "Okay, in. my partnership" I'm giving an example. I. share in The Awakened Brain that in the. journey to find Isaiah, there were very. I'm very grateful for some very sacred, mystical visitations. Now, I didn't say, "Oh, I've had. mystical visitations. And honey, you.

haven't. Therefore, I'm ahead on the. path." No, I think the mystical. visitation to one member of the. partnership is to be shared by both. So, if you happen to be perhaps more. spiritually perceptive, if you happen to. be on a more intense or palpable or. vivid spiritual path, then you have the. opportunity to bring that home and share. that guidance, offer that love to the. partnership. You know, the data shows.

that very often families are enriched. and made spiritual by one lead partner. And someone else in the partnership is. bringing something else. And my kids heard that back to me. They. said, "You know, mommy's on a path and. mommy's so spiritual. But [snorts] if it. were just mommy, we'd be living in a. tent or something. >> yeah, exactly. >> it were just Daddy, it'd be way too. strict. We think you're a good balance. That's amazing. Absolutely, absolutely. If someone's dating,

how can they stop avoiding the voice. inside of them that tells them this is. the wrong person? Because I feel like we. often justify Mhm. someone is right for. us because of the outward boxes that. they tick or the fact that our family. and friends think they're amazing, but. inside of ourselves we knew it. Mhm. And. then when they leave us, Mhm. it feels. like we were double dumped because we. already knew it, but then they left us. Well, Jay, I think you're pointing to. the importance of hearing the deep inner. wisdom. Every one of us has a spiritual.

compass that always points to the truth. The more we listen and pay attention to. the inner spiritual compass, the more we. become pitch perfect in hearing the. guidance. But if we're just a little rusty or. we're getting our feet wet, we can. always take the question to counsel. Take the question, is this guy right for. me, to your counsel. Ask those who truly. have your best interest in mind, your. higher self and your higher power. Hey, what say you? Because counsel is.

there to answer any question, >> Mhm. to bring guidance at any juncture. in the road. And in fact, we can bring a problem to. counsel. We can bring a person to. counsel. Counsel is a place in our soul and our. neuro-wiring where we can return Mhm. to. receive an awakened response, to receive. awakened guidance. Mhm. Once we practice. counsel, I suggest to people to an. invitation to try counsel every time,

every day. I offer people the invitation to. practice counsel every day. because then we become accustomed to. returning into the place of transcendent. relationship. We become a little bit. more nuanced in ability to hear. guidance. And ultimately, we become more. aware of the guidance within ourselves, which is the voice of God, the universe. Let's shift to talk about money. Yes. Because you just mentioned there that. your kids said, "Hey, if we just had. mom, we'd live in a tent.".

>> Yes. "If we had dad, it'd be too strict, so it's a good balance." What is the. practical connection between. spirituality and money? >> Mhm. Our spiritual perception. allows us to walk our true path, our. true calling. And when we do, there is. abundance. It's not our preordained. mail-order vision of abundance. It is. big A abundance that comes in many. forms. It comes in oftentimes meaningful. relationships. It comes in a sense of.

fullness and sparkle in in the world. It. comes the fullness in our heart. And. very often when we are on our authentic. path, we find that the finances end up. getting I don't mean to preach a. prosperity message where oh you'll get. loads of money if you're spiritual. Spirituality is not a transaction, but. spirituality [snorts] will align us with. our path through which the road rises up. to meet us. And we very often do find. that we are provided for. What mistakes.

do you think spiritual people make when. it comes to money? I think the biggest mistake early in. [snorts] the spiritual path is to. sequester our spiritual life as being. separate from our work life. But in fact, how we show up at work is a. spiritual endeavor. Even if we don't. like the job. Even if we may not in 5 years or 10. years be doing the same professional the. same profession we do now. When we show up with an authentic. spiritual voice and say, "You know what?

I'm not going. to make an immoral decision even though. my boss is leaning on me. You know, I do. think there is a purpose in the fact. that this client right now has told me. that his wife is dying. I feel in my. heart love for the other side of the. steel, and I don't want to exploit them. or take advantage of them. When we bring. our spiritual heart to work, we make. more ethical decisions, and in the end, we make win-win decisions. An awakened. decision is a win-win decision.

It is far more sustainable and yes, more. outwardly profitable in the long run. Mhm. So, the biggest mistake we can make. is to leave our spiritual selves at. home. And as a boss, the biggest mistake we. can make further down the line in our. careers is to silence the spiritual. voice of people. sitting at the work table. Mhm. Absolutely. I have a lot of friends who'd consider. themselves to be spiritual. Many of them. are depressed and not financially. secure. When you tell me that people are.

spiritually less depressed and they. should have an abundance opportunity, I don't always see that translate into. reality, and I'm trying to understand where. they're tripping up or going wrong. Yeah, oftentimes I hear spirituality is. in the ashram. Spirituality is in. removing myself from commerce or the. bank or the career that I've pursued for. 25 years. I would say just the opposite.

Spirituality is bringing your deepest. wisdom and soulfulness into the bank, the profession of 20 years. When we. separate ourselves out of the flow of. life, we've taken ourselves out of the. energy field. We've taken ourselves out. of the. majestic symphony that is the embodied. spiritual reality. Society isn't. unspiritual. Everyone's born a. spiritual. Society is the embodied. spiritual reality. Now, how much are we. going to cultivate that reality, and.

what are we going to bring to it? How. are we going to show up? I think we end up depressed and poor. when we isolate ourselves, when we. sequester ourselves, and certainly when. we feel holier than thou. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like that approach because. going back to the Gita, because Arjuna's. an archer, he's a warrior, he's told by. God to do his duty, which is to protect. and to fight. And that's quite a remarkable direction. from God to be saying, "You should.

fight." Rather than Arjuna's actually. saying, "I think I should just go to the. forest and meditate, and I don't need. this land, and it doesn't matter." And. God's like, "No, you need to protect. future generations, and you need to be. ahead of it, and you're doing your duty. You were born a warrior, and so carry. out that duty." Yes, were you born a. warrior? Me? Mhm. Probably a little bit, yeah. I've got a bit of that, for sure, yeah. Yeah, for sure. >> I relate to that, too. Trying to make. change within major institutions that. was foundationally spiritual. You in the. center of society. I've been doing this.

work in science and in academia and in. the Pentagon. I think that when we work. from a deep spiritual awareness, then we're actually part of a mission. And it can be at times. a spiritual fight. Yeah. And it can be. at times a spiritual fight. Spirituality. is highly embodied. Spirituality has. everything to do about fighting the good. fight, standing up for what's right. Spirituality has everything to do with. building and creating something that is. inherently good. So, spirituality is not. just contemplative practice, and it's.

not just being soft and gentle. There. are times where righteous indignation, a. firm back, speaking up for what's true, fighting to build something, to. create a land that has spiritual values. is a highly profound act of devotion. Spirituality is not something that's. quiet and mousy. Spirituality is very. often something that is active and. strong and uncompromising. I think a lot. of people right now when they look at. the world, they think that there's.

nothing spiritual obviously about what's. going on. How do you think about that? Oh, I think we're having birthing pains. for an extraordinary collective. awakening. I think that I'm tremendously full of. empirically grounded hope. Just as each. and every one of us. moves through suffering to. transcendence, that depression leads to. transcendence, awakening. I think as a. society we're on the brink of awakening. to a far more spiritual center field.

way of living and treating each other. We're on the brink of a much more. spiritual society. What do you think? I think people ask better questions and. get more committed to doing amazing work. in the world when things are not going. great. >> [clears throat]. >> So, I think that when we see pain in the. world and we feel motivated to want to. make a change and contribute. I see so. many people who are getting more. involved in charity work and getting. more involved in philanthropy. I see so. many people who are wanting to go out. and make a difference. To me that's. spiritual that sometimes the alarm clock.

gets louder and louder and louder to. wake us up. Because otherwise, if it's. on snooze, we kind of get complacent. And so, I I always feel that anxiety and tragedy. and. it's it's a. it's a painful reality and I wish we. didn't function that way, but humans. almost wait for things to get really bad. before we. do something about it. And if you don't. know what to do, you can, just as I shared in my marital.

challenge, right, hand it over. See seek. direction Mhm. from the source. Meditate. on it. Pray. See what inspiration comes. If the old way of working isn't going to. give us a good answer, then open up perhaps to a spiritual. direction. And I see, to your point Jay, a lot of people, yes, they keep their. day job. Yes, they still show up. But they're showing up in a different. way. And suddenly and I just heard from. a fellow who'd been a trader on Wall. Street for 20 years. He said, "You know,

I've had a spiritual awakening recently. And now I'm showing up on the trading. floor in an entirely different way. And. I notice the young guys are coming to me. and they're asking for advice, advice. with their partners, advice with their. bosses. There must be something that I'm. giving off. Some sort of peace, some sort of. solidity, some type of enlightenment. that welcomes others to seek guidance. So, if everyone showed up at work that. way, we'd have a different commercial. system. We'd have a different society.

When we each cross the bridge, then. together we really are making a. different type of awakened society. I. think the challenge people genuinely. feel is we're so exhausted from our. lives and our days. Mhm. We always. think, "Oh, yeah, when I when I have. more energy, I'll do that. When I when I. have a bit of peace, I'll do that." What. are you thinking about that? >> I think that your spiritual life is the. only path. towards gaining energy and peace and. direction. So, even if I'm completely. exhausted, every morning I force myself.

to walk out the door, go outside, and. open into my morning meditation and. prayer. Now, there days where it is more. profound than others, but if I miss a. day, it becomes a very different type of day. If I miss practicing in the morning, the day unfolds very differently. I have. to say, "Oop, at about noon, excuse me, step outside, and even though it's noon or 1:00, do my. morning prayers.". Morning prayer for me is an opening to. connect in dialogue with the universe.

If I miss it, then I'm working from a. place of ego, of want. What do I want. for me? What do I want for my family? If I go outside and start loving God, please open my heart and fill me with. love that I might be present to you. You. use your words. Uh, today is a dialogue with the universe. You've said that children are born as. pure souls. >> Mhm, yes. Do you think everyone is born. good? Everyone's born a knower. We know this through lens, the lens of.

science. So, we can look at twin studies. and know that every single person is. born with a natural capacity for. spiritual awareness. And every single. person through MRI studies, we know, is. through MRI studies, we know every. single person is born with circuits in. the brain for spiritual awareness. What. does this look like in the child? Science shows us that unless socialized. otherwise, a young child naturally. perceives. continuity of consciousness or spirit. after death, unless told, "Oh, no, no,

that's not real.". A young child naturally perceives that. we can directly know. We don't need to. have been told or read it or seen it. We. can have direct access to consciousness. Science calls this implicit spiritual. cognition. I say the child's born a. knower. Now, what happens in school is. that the child says, "Oh, I know the. answer to that." And the teacher says, "What What do you mean? Point on the. page. Where does it say? Where did you. read that? You need to cite and. reference how you know that." And the.

child says, "No, I just knew.". That exchange says to the child that. direct knowing is somehow less real, that the type of knowing that we. raise as. prime, to which we give primacy, the. type of knowing that we value here in. school, is one that comes from someone. else. But actually, the most important. knowledge we have doesn't come from. someone else. It is an original, authentic knowing within ourselves. That's how we know our own calling, our. own purpose, our own direction. School.

has socialized us out of our natural. spiritual awareness. School has. foreclosed the direction and guidance. that is built into life. The child comes. in and knower, the child comes in. listening and paying attention to their. inner spiritual compass. And school we. learn, "Oh, no, no, that's not real. You. need to have been told that by someone. else." What can parents do to protect. that? It's essential that parents. protect their child's natural spiritual. awareness. Parents can say,

"Hey, you said you just knew that. How. wonderful. Was that direct knowing? You. just knew?". Or child might come to us as parents and. say something like, "You know, I felt. grandma's presence even though she's. dead. I really felt grandma's presence.". And you can say, "Wow, grandma really. loved you. It makes sense that she'd be. watching over you." We don't need to. have all the grand answers as parents. But to protect the child's natural. spirituality, we need to authorize them,

our children, as knowers. "Wow, [snorts]. you had a dream that daddy and I were. going to travel around the world and. today we told you that? Wow, you had a. hunch that your sister was going to come. home from school early and then it. happened? You had direct knowing. Wow.". Honor and authorize your child's direct. knowing. Because everyone else in society is. telling them it isn't real. We have. poisoned a generation with something.

that's called radical materialism that. says it's only real if you can touch it. or kick it. But actually, there's a great deal of. information in the unseen. And the child. has access to that information. By. saying to the child, "Oh, no, that. feeling you have in your gut instinct, that's just that's just your intuition.". No, no. Wow, that's the gift of your. intuition. What, you made that up? You. imagined it? No, no, no. Imagination, like touching a hot stove, images,

what's true. You figured that out in your important. imagination. Authorize, authorize, authorize. Well said. I really like that. How. important is spirituality at home from a. scientific perspective? Tremendously. important. The child is born a naturally. spiritual being, but this is 1/3 of an. endowment, 2/3 cultivated by us as. parents and grandparents. It can be by a. devoted loving mentor, a member of a.

faith community. It could be by a coach. or a counselor. But when we pair true. deep love, authentic love, with transparency, opening the window. and sharing our own spiritual life, the child is embraced and their. spiritual core is formed. >> [snorts]. >> As a parent, if I say. we can do four things as a parent to. strengthen our children's spirituality. The first is call it out, use a language. that speaks to synchronicity, mystical.

experiences, talk about the spiritual. reality, and give it a language through. which the child gains a road map of a. spiritual sacred reality. If we say it's. real, it's real. Two, [snorts]. invite your child into your own life. Share the stories of when I was 16 and I. really didn't know if God existed, I was. really depressed. When you were born, I. knew there was much more than just skin. and bones to us. You know, speak. authentically about your own journey.

from a spiritual perspective, the. knowing, truth truthful knowing of your. own heart. When you share your authentic. spiritual story, the child knows that. actually our life journey is a spiritual. journey. That's third thing we can do, very important, is to invite our. children. to share their own spiritual. experiences. Say that our relationship, our family, goes down to that bedrock. Spiritual life is part of who we are, whether it's, you know, God brought us. together, the universe from across the.

world brought you to me, my beautiful. spiritual child, or when Daddy and Mommy. got married and we both brought our. kids, we knew that God had made this. full abundant family. Talk about who we. are as a family from the deepest. spiritual perspective. And the fourth. piece, all four are important, the. fourth is non-negotiable, which is. invite your child into a practice of. transcendence. Whether it's prayer, you. know, loving God, open my heart. Now, you finish the prayer. Do you want to.

sit by my side and while we meditate. through which you're invoking the sacred. consciousness field like a little. antenna, they're starting to pick it up, right? >> [snorts]. >> Share transcendent practice. When we as parents share transcendent. practice, we allow our children the rest. of their lives. to get back to source. The brain is more. of an antenna than a factory. We were. born able to receive consciousness much. more like an antenna. than a factory that makes thoughts.

spirituality. The child's a little. antenna. Teach them how to raise it. Teach them that what comes through their. antenna is real. And show them that you can always raise. the antenna and feel the presence of. love, feel the presence of guidance. I think that's so different from what I. feel a lot of people who grew up in a. spiritual or religious home experience. which was forced. Mhm. Force of. practice, force of belief, force of ritual without reason, >> Mhm. force of turning up and showing up.

whether you cared or not. So now they. don't like the whole thing. >> They don't like any of it. Yeah, that. rebounds. Does. These are invitations. What's the difference between. spirituality and religion? Mhm. Well, for as you probably know, for about 2/3. of people in the states, and it's pretty. true across post-industrial countries, spirituality and religion go hand in. hand for about 2/3 of people. And about. 1/3 of people say, "I'm spiritual, but. I'm not religious." Whether or not we're. religious, we are all inborn spiritual.

beings. Religion is whether I'm Catholic. or Hindu or Jewish is a gift of our. parents and grandparents. Religion, the. sacred text, ceremony, is. environmentally transmitted. Spirituality is innate. Now, Jay, I think in support of the child's. own natural spirituality, we can as. parents take on a child-centered point. of view. Listen to the child's spiritual. experiences and say, "Wow.". Offer in the first person speaking for.

only myself a spiritual voice. So, for. instance, I used to take hikes with my children in. the forest when they were young. And. when we came to a fork in the road, I. always said Robert Frost Frost poem, "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not follow both, and. be one traveler long I stood." And of. course, it's the road less traveled. It's about listening to your inner. wisdom and making an authentic original. choice.

Years went by. >> I love that poem. Dozens of times Robert. Frost was shared in the woods at the. juncture where the road forked. And sure enough, years later, my. children walking through the woods will. approach a fork in the road and say, "This is the point where Mommy recites. Robert Frost and cries.". >> [laughter]. >> They're [snorts] aware there's a choice. There's a choice in the road. Now, when I cry, I didn't cry cuz I. thought it would be an effective way for. them to remember the Robert Frost poem. It was a genuine authentic sense that.

the most important thing in life is to. learn to make your own choices. They got. the picture. When we're transparent, when we share. what's really important to us on our own. spiritual path, they know it's real. They get the picture. And then on their. own terms, they can claim it. Because. you weren't doing it to teach. You were. just sharing it. Like there's such a. difference. It's almost like we remember. things when someone shares them as their. inspiration versus when they say, "You. need to do this." Like, you need to know.

like I don't know if you turn around to. your kids at that young age and said, "This is a lesson in how you live your. choices in the future." Like, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> It's like that doesn't work on anyone. Like, if if you share something you. love, I'll remember that. And you would. for me, too. But, if I said, "Lisa, you. have to live life like this and this is. what you've got to remember.". All of a sudden, your defenses go up and. you just switch off, especially as a. kid. Jay, I was sharing the best thing I. had, which was the joy of living an. authentic, original life. Yeah. And not.

borrowing my life from the playbook or. someone else's life. Lisa, what does. therapy do that spirituality can't? And. what does spirituality do that therapy. can't? Yes. So, Jay, for 30 years, I've. been working at the intersection of. spirituality and psychotherapy. And I've. published over 200 articles on. spirituality and mental health and. recovery. Many of which are in top peer-review. journals. Spirituality is essential. to recovery from depression and.

addiction. Spirituality is protective. against depression and addiction. There's nothing in the clinical or. social sciences as important to whole. person formation as a strong spiritual. core. So, in my view, psychotherapy minus a. spiritual core makes no sense. A spiritually informed therapy is one. one in which the patient is authorized. to open to the guidance in the universe, to raise their antenna, and ask the question, "What is life.

showing me now? What is this suffering. revealing to me now? Is there a blind spot where I'm being. perhaps. um inconsiderate or selfish? Is there a. blind spot where I have yet to take. ownership or autonomy of my life. >> [snorts]. >> Is there a way in which I'm not. listening to the universe? And the. universe is pounding louder and louder, to your point, until I hear? That type of reflection is a reflection. brought forth by suffering, but it is.

not purely a psychological question. It is one in which we were asking to see. beyond. what we know. Awakened awareness has information. that has yet to unfold before us. Mhm. Achieving awareness draws on all the. information in our own lives and. everyone else's to date. It is. inherently based on the past. But intuition, mystical experience, and. awakened knowing has information that.

has yet to unfold before us. >> Mhm. The yellow doors. That's why spirituality is essential to. mental health, because what is suffering. but a banging at the door to emerge. beyond the person that we've ever been. before. Lisa, I can't wait for people to. read The Awakened Brain and to connect. more with your work because. sitting with you today and going through. your exercises and. hearing about your ability to pull from. science and from spirituality, it's it's.

such important work and it's I'm so glad. that you're such a good messenger of it. because it feels like it's been hidden. from us. It It feels like it's not as accessible. as it should be and you're bringing it. out, so I'm so grateful for that. I'm so. grateful for our conversation. And it's true, every single person. listening already is spiritual. Mhm. This is theirs. It's not only for the. most pious. or the most learned. No one owns this.

You are spiritual. But it is your opportunity to awaken. Yeah, we we end every episode of On. Purpose with a final five. These. questions have to be answered in one. word to one sentence maximum. And so, Lisa Miller, these are your. final five. The first question is, what. is the best advice you've ever heard or. received? Listen to your inner wisdom. and bet against the pack. >> [laughter]. >> Nice. I agree. Question number two, what is the worst. advice you've ever heard or received? Do.

as I say. >> [laughter]. >> Question number three, what's the first. thing you do in the morning and the last. thing you do at night? Every morning, I. open the day. through prayer that invites my heart to. connect to God. And every day, I close the day by. thanking God for the guidance, the love, and the miracle of the adventure that. was the day before. What do you pray to God for? I ask that. I might align my heart with God's. guidance and love. And that day, serve.

God in love. I don't know what it'll. look like, but I know if I'm in. alignment. Fifth and final question, Lisa, we ask this to every guest who's. ever been on the show. If you could create one law that. everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Every single person in. your path was sent by source. Treat them with an awakened heart. Dr. Lisa Miller, the book is called The. Awakened Brain, The New Science of. Spirituality and Our Quest for an. Inspired Life. Go and grab your copy.

right now. I hope you listen to this. conversation many times. My favorite thing you could do is please. take a moment to do the two practices we. did together with yourself. And then share it with a friend because. I feel those simple practices that Lisa. so beautifully guided me through. could be the unlock that you're looking. for. I've always found that you need. these tipping points in your journey. And Lisa gave us so many beautiful ones, but those two exercises particularly, I. think could be doorways and gateways.

into your spiritual life. If you've been. struggling, if you felt like you've. fallen off, if you're reconnecting, whichever part of the journey you're on. So, thank you so much. Lisa, thank you. for your time, your energy, your. presence. >> connect with you. You're a beautiful. soul. Aw, thank you. >> Very kind, truly. Thank you so much. If. you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my. interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to. change your life by changing your brain. They don't do things until someone's mad. at them to get it done. They need stress.

in order to get stuff done. And that. just makes everybody around them. stressed.