The Anxiety Doctor: Social Media Is Causing A Mental Health COLLAPSE (& It's Only Getting WORSE!)

there has never been a global. synchronized collapse of mental health. this is far larger than anything we've. ever seen in terms of its effects on. kids this is way way larger than Co a. much buzzed about book The anxious. generation is available now here's of. course Jonathan height girls are. extraordinarily anxious and depressed. boys are extraordinarily undeveloped we. shouldn't have kids with a massive. entertainment center in their pocket by. which strangers can reach them this is. complete Insanity.

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for you in the world subscribe right now. the number one Health and Wellness. podcast Jett J shett the one the only. Jett hey everyone welcome back to onp. purpose the place you tune into to. become happier healthier and more healed. thank you so much for investing in your. growth and your journey by being here. today as I'm about to interview one of. my favorite authors a researcher a. professor that I'm so excited to talk to.

I've been wanting to have this. conversation with him about many of his. books and we're finally here for his. latest installment it's called the. anxious generation how the great. rewiring of childhood is causing an. epidemic of mental illness please. welcome to on purpose Jonathan height. Jonathan thank you for being here thank. you for making the time and spending. this energy with us oh my pleasure Jay. thanks for having me this is a. conversation that I feel as I was saying. to you offline which is so critical and. Central for our listeners I know that.

everyone who's tuned in whether it be. right now on YouTube or listening to us. on an audio platform this is of the. number one concern in their life which. is their personal mental well-being and. then the mental wellbeing of their. children and the people that they care. about and love and I think when I first. saw the title The anxious. generation I was thinking about how. there's this rhetoric that has become. quite normal in society.

around how every generation has had. their anxiety whether it was the world. wars whether we talk about oh we have. social media but you know kids back in. the day had black and white TVs and then. color television and then then they had. video games and so I feel like there's. been this rhetoric that social media is. just the latest installment in a host of. previous technologies that have made old. people worried about young people why is. this different uh so that is the main.

counterargument I get is from people say. oh we've been through this before when I. was a kid we watched too much television. but look it didn't do anything to us um. and it is true that ever since modernity. began so beginning in the 17th century. when the pace of change really begins to. accelerate generation to generation the. Next Generation actually is a little. different from the previous one and the. and generally we think the Next. Generation they're kind of soft you know. they don't have our virtues um they have. funny habits so that's always been going. on and that's what I'm a late baby Bomer.

I was born in 1963 so that's what we. thought about you know you know the. millennial generation you know oh. they're always just you know folks on. their coffee and their and their avocado. toast they're not serious but actually. and you're a millennial I believe right. that's correct so Millennials born 1981. through 1995 roughly um but the. Millennials their mental health was. actually pretty good um better than Gen. X actually and they're an amazingly. successful generation they were creative. they traveled the world they start. companies so that's the normal intergen.

difference this time is really really. different because all of a sudden in. 2012 2013 it's like someone flicked on a. light switch and all over the developed. world we don't have data from the from. the developing world but all over the. developed World certainly the english-. speaking countries. Scandinavia girls in particular began to. get depressed anxious they began to cut. themselves they began checking into. psychiatric wordss in right around 2013. in the US it's very sharp right around. 2013 it sometimes is little bit but it's.

basically the early 2010s this has never. happened before there has never been a. global synchronized collapse of mental. health this is far larger than anything. we've ever seen in terms of its effects. on kids this is way way larger than. covid um this is affecting most kids so. I'm engaged in debates with other. Scholars about well why did this happen. and what I Marshall in the book is the. evidence that it's not just a. coincidence it's not just a correlation. that oh that's exactly when kids.

basically switch from flip phones to. smartphones it was between 2010 and 2015. all over the world um but I'm showing. that there there's a lot of uh of. experimental evidence that shows. causation and another thing that makes. this different the kids themselves say. it so when I was a kid we watched too. much TV but you didn't see kids. organizing to keep kids off TV you. didn't see kids saying oh please save us. from TV you know we're stuck watching it. we don't want to be watching it but. that's what young people are saying. about social media I just saw a survey. uh the majority the majority of people.

of of all ages including young people. say they would rather that Tik Tok was. never invented they're spending time on. it because everyone else is but they see. that they're trapped so this is so. different from any previous moral Panic. that's so fascinating to hear that it's. the first time that people are actually. saying or kids are actually saying that. this experience is something that we're. feeling yet we feel so trapped addicted. and exactly that's what my students say. at NYU that's what students say on. surveys when you ask them why do you.

think mental health is so bad in your. generation the most common answer is. social media they see it happening the. parents see it happening to the kids the. teachers see it happening to the kids so. there's all kinds of eyewitness. testimony like people see this happening. it's not just like hm I wonder if it's. the phone like no we see the evidence of. it what I'm fascinated why are people. debating you well there are so you know. I'm an academic and we publish um our. articles and journals and there are some. people who been studying media for a. long time and many of them are um very.

technophilic that they they you know. they like technology they some of them. like video games have been writing about. the benefits of video games and there. are some and so I think they come to. this prepared to believe that this is. just another moral Panic we've been. through this with television and video. games and before that comic books the. 18th century it was novels people didn't. want young women to read novels because. stimulate their sexual appetites so they. sort of approach it with a like you know. this is just another one of those moral. panics and then I keep doing this work.

with Jee twangy and Zack Rous we keep. showing like no other explanation works. this time is different this is not just. some artifact of kids being more willing. to talk about it this is you the same. Curves in self-report you see those same. Curves in Hospital admissions uh so and. psychiatric emergency department busit. so this is not just some illusion uh but. you know there's about four or five five. or six researchers um you know they're. serious researchers and they look at the. same data I do and they uh they say well. the the correlations are too small to.

explain it or they say you know it's. mostly correlational they're not enough. experiments and I say okay look I found. 25 experiments 16 of which do show a. causal effect you know with random. assignment the kids who the young people. who are assigned to do less social media. um in the first few days maybe their. mental health is bad because they're. addicted but if you wait three or four. weeks on average they feel better so I. say look here are all these experiments. and they say well the experiments aren't. good enough here's a flaw in that one. here's a flaw in that one so this is a. normal academic debate not going to. change their minds ever they're not.

going to change my mind ever um this is. just the way these things go but as we. argue it out in public the rest of the. world can look and they can say what are. my arguments what are their arguments. and then they'll decide yeah absolutely. and from reading your book and your work. what I understand is you actually I'm. not saying social media doesn't have. benefits either that's not. really what you're saying you're not. saying that there is no validity to it. well what I would say is for adults. social media has many benefits so you. know obviously many people start their. business businesses look I use Twitter.

to get my research out so for adults so. think about this these are these were. these used to be called social. networking sites because originally they. were just ways to connect people and as. an adult I have a need to network and. it's useful to me and Linkedin is useful. Twitter is useful many you know Facebook. groups are use these are all useful for. adults but let's talk about middle. school kids so in America Middle School. is roughly ages 11 to 13 let's talk. about kids just beginning puberty.

how much need do they have to network. how much do they need to meet strangers. strange men who are approaching them how. much do they need that um how much do. they need social media to connect with. their friends the telephone was an. amazing invention you pick it up you. press some numbers and you can talk to. your friend anywhere in the country. anywhere in the world so we already had. that how much more help did 11 and 12y. olds need to connect with their friends. and so I would argue that when we look. at middle school this is my main focus.

is early puberty early puberty the brain. is extremely vulnerable because the fr. the the fral part of the brain is. rewiring very rapidly um growth is slow. during childhood but it's very rapid in. puberty and so I would say that for 11. 12 13y old kids I'm willing to say there. aren't really any benefits and the harms. are extraordinary so that's why I say we. need to just raise we need to raise the. ages we should have a norm that no one. gets a smartphone before high school we.

shouldn't have kids with massive. entertainment center in their pocket by. which strangers can reach them companies. can reach them and we should raise the. age of social media opening account from. 13 which is at present not enforced to. 16 and enforce it if we do those two. things we'll really get at least a. handle we'll protect kids during early. puberty yeah and I want to get on to all. of those points I think one thing before. that I think the word anxiety in some. cases we've become so numb to it it's. become so normalized it is the norm to. hear someone you know as anxiety someone.

you love as anxiety children have. anxiety and I feel that word has been so. repeated over the last 5 to 10 years. maybe that it's become we've become numb. to it and because of that we don't. really understand and which you do spend. a lot of time in the early parts of the. book not only defining what anxiety is. an experience but the extent to which. anxiety affects our normal everyday. functioning could you give us a short. summary on that which I want people to. dive into the book to read the Deep. research on but could we at least.

explore what are the implications what. is anxiety and what are the implications. of anxiety in the long term if not for. some of these recommendations you're. suggesting so the most important emotion. for Animals is fear fear is across all. the different species vertebrates and. vertebrates there's a very you know huge. long Evolution a lot is known about fear. because if you've ever been snorkeling. or out in the woods you know that life.

for Animals is you're looking forood. you're looking for food and then you're. dead because someone jumped on you so. all animals including us have a hair. trigger alarm system that's normal. that's healthy uh so that's fear now. sometimes um that's when you're attacked. you're threatened now sometimes you're. in an environment where you don't see a. threat per se but it's you're very wary. of it and so let's say you know so. humans are much more afraid in the dark. because in the dark you're much more. likely to be killed by Nocturnal hunting.

animals so we have an innate fear of the. dark it doesn't mean we're necessarily. afraid but we're just we're a little. more on edge and so that's your brain. saying okay we're going to shift the. alarm system over we're going to make. you a little warier if anything happens. you're going to jump whereas if it was. broad daylight you would just look and. say what was that um so our brains are. these incredible survival machines that. have very very deep circuits for fear. which mobilizes us to fight or to to. flee or fight um and then for anxiety.

which is more diffus just a general. sense of threats now when the fear. system is triggered and then you take. action and then it shuts off that's. normal that's healthy but as many of. your listeners will know chronic stress. causes an increase in circulating. cortisol it keeps your stress system on. stress is not bad kids need stress but. short-term stress but when you have. long-term stress now you have hormonal. disregulation you have cortisol which. has many functions in the body but high.

levels of cortisol expose you to all. kinds of health problems joint problems. immunity I mean I forget the whole list. cortisol has so many effects um so. what's happening is um young people. there have always been anxious young. people some people are set to anxious. some people are set to more calm that's. always been the case but there's a shift. so that more and more kids are are. closer to the anxiety side now um part. of this is they're told there's a lot of. talk actually just this week or two. there's a lot of talk about how these.

programs that teach kids to label their. emotions and they talk about you know. were you afraid were you anxious they. seem like they're well-intentioned it. seems you know social emotional learning. there is some basis to that decades ago. but it seems though it's moving in a. direction of teaching kids to dwell on. their own emotions always be looking. inward how did that make you feel how. did that make were you anxious um you. know what you know where can you go for. help um that this there's actually not. much evidence that this is helping and. there's some new studies suggesting that.

this stuff backfires this is actually. making kids more anxious what kids what. I argue in the book is what kids really. really need to overcome anxiety is. exposure go out and play and sometimes. you will be afraid and sometimes you'll. climb a tree and you'll be go too high. and you're afraid I remember those. feelings from my childhood but that's. how you get over childhood anxieties. where sitting inside in a classroom with. a teacher giving you an emotion Circle. and saying which of these emotions are. you feeling right now Johnny you know. and and sometimes they're asked have you. thought about suicide. have you thought about harming yourself.

and they ask this over and over again so. this suggests to kids that they are weak. that they have these emotions and if. they have these emotions it's a problem. so I think we're you know the Mental. Health. Community um you know I think we're just. we're not we're not recognizing what's. driving the epidemic and we're not doing. things that would effectively reverse it. what is the root of that because I feel. like the research oscillates in some. cases or at least as humans we like to. oscillate there's this idea of the past. and I assume it's the opposite of what.

you just said where when you were young. you weren't allowed to feel I think. everyone's experienced that idea of oh. don't worry everything will be okay or. oh it it doesn't matter that you feel. pain like everything will be fine let. Let It Go or you know don't cry or. things like that and so that was one. extreme and then the other extreme is. what you're saying now where it's like. well let's talk about every emotion and. give it equal waiting and give it equal. priority what what is the middle and. yeah so um so I'm saying kid need. adversity they need to sometimes be.

excluded so all of that is necessary you. know if you if you ask any parent how. many times would you like your child to. be excluded you just have a newborn. child your child's going to turn 18 and. 18 years in those 18 years how often do. you want your child to be excluded and. to feel excluded and anybody who says. zero they're speaking from their heart. but they're not speaking from their head. I would never hire someone who's never. been excluded this person is going to be. have it very difficult to have normal. human relationships sometimes they won't. be included and that's not a big deal U. so we need adversity now I think what.

you're saying is it used to be we were. too insensitive and that's true uh and. there were a couple of categories. especially so bullying bullying is. really really bad but what we have to be. clear about is bullying is not. aggression bullying is aggression or. humiliation directed at a kid day after. day it has to be over time because. aggression is a normal and necessary. part of childhood you have to let kids. experience aggression Express aggression. Express hostility you have to allow that.

and let them work it out now now and. then there will be a problem there'll be. one kid who is picking on another kid. and that kid doesn't want to go to. school and if that goes on for more than. a day now it's bullying and now we need. to be responsive and I was a kid we. weren't in the 70s that we weren't um. and in some countries I know at the time. you know in Japan and Korea there were. horrible I mean the culture around. bullying and English boarding schools. I've heard so it's great progress that. we're being more senstive about bullying. um obviously the shaming of LGBT TQ kids. that was a that was constant when I was.

a kid um but now it's much much better. so so in many ways we do need to be more. sensitive but I think the gist of your. question is have we overshot have we and. I would say yes we have really overshot. um you know if if there's any you know. recess in America is often very heavily. monitored and as soon as there's any. kind of conflict an adult comes in when. my kids my kids went to New York City. Public Schools they go there still. they're in high school um and so that. kind of attention to let's make sure no. one's upset let's make sure no one's.

excluded you know my daughter and her. friend they formed a little Club but. they were you know on the playground. they were told no you can't do that you. can't exclude anyone that's crazy kids. need to play with that so anyway that's. the I think we've gone too far yeah. talking about recess I believe it was in. your book that you said that the average. recess time or outdoor time is 37. minutes is that the numbers vary it. depends on the but in elementary school. I've heard numbers as low as 27 minutes. as the average average yeah across the. day and sometimes that's combined with. lunch some kids only get 25 minutes.

including lunch and so you go you know. you're in you know kids need to run. around they need recess there's a lot of. research on this play helps them learn. helps them attend later but in America. at least and in East Asian countries I. would imagine um we're so focused on on. on test scores on that we think what. five and six and seven year olds is more. need is more math and they don't they. don't need more math what they need is. more playtime and then they'll learn. more in a shorter amount of math um in. the States if you are in a federal.

maximum security. penitentiary you are guaranteed two. hours a day of yard time you can't keep. it's in inhumane to keep them in in. their cells all day two hours of yard. time but if you're in elementary school. student in the United States you have no. guarantee and it's it's very often as. little as 27 minutes including lunch. which means you have to stand in the. lunch line that takes 10 minutes you get. your lunch you have you know you wolf it. down in 5 minutes you have whatever 5. minutes left to play this is complete. Insanity. if we want to get a handle in the Mental.

Health crisis I think we need to back. off on the adults instructing kids about. their emotions do a lot less of that and. take all the money and all the time. we're spending on that and give kids. more play and what do what do we need. you talk about what we need as children. you're talking about the need for play. is play truly just play or is there. certain parameters certain ideas certain. thoughts that make play more effective. yes play is a mamalian universal so. mammals you know the first mammals.

whenever it was that some females began. to secrete milk from glands in their. skin it's kind of an amazing. evolutionary adaptation for having a. longer childhood you know other animals. they lay an egg and that's it animals on. their own but mammals we have this long. long childhood and that allows us to. have much larger brains and much more. complex social behavior compared to say. reptiles and so we have this long. childhood um and especially the social. animals dogs more than cats but you know.

dogs and humans and are incredibly. playful creatures we have a puppy at. home she's now a year and a well year. and a half she still looks like a puppy. she wants to play all the time and she. has to play that's the thing since all. mammals play when they're young and they. take risks so Evolution isn't stupid. Evolution didn't say we're going to let. these these baby animals practice. jumping out of trees and practice. getting in fights for no good reason no. there's a very good reason that's what. you have to do to train your brain to.

reach adulthood and that's why for. hundreds of thousands of years millions. of years you could say all human. children played unless they were being. seriously deprived of play and stuck in. a factory so we in America we had play. all the way up through the 1990s that's. when we begin to lose it in the '90s we. freak out in America and Britain and. Canada uh and we say it's too dangerous. you'll be abducted you'll be sexually. molested no you stay home or you stay. under supervision oh and there's this. fabulous new internet so why don't you. spend more time on that that's what. happened in the '90s and that's when.

childhood really departed from the human. need for play and independent activity. and became over supervised helicopter. parented uh restrained restricted and. you can play on a video game in a way. but it's not embodied whereas we're. physical creatures we need to run jump. touch wrestle hug uh you know I remember. doing all those things with my with my. friends when I was in second or third. grade we would sometimes hug each other. or pick each other up or wrest Soul you. know it's children are physical like.

puppies but but now you know kids. they're on their screen all the time. there can be a playful element but. there's no risk there's no physicality. um they don't learn the social skills. that you do from face- Toof face. encounters when you were saying that I. was actually thinking back to a trip I. took to Rwanda two years ago and I was. thinking about our our gorilla friends. who we share I believe over 96% of our. DNA with and watching the young gorillas. play outdoors and you when you talking.

about wrestling and and we so. recognizable that's right yeah and it. was such a like cuz we're primates. primates have arms and primates use. their arms in play and you see it with. all you know with chimpanzees and. bonobos and gorillas yeah and it's so. cute right like we love watching it. because we mammals as adults we are. primed for cuteness because that. triggers in us a protective Instinct. over the kids so we have this protective. Instinct and un unfortunately it's kind. of run rampant you know it used to be.

the kids are out of the house you don't. see them but now we can monitor kids all. the time and we're just we're swooping. in too quick yeah no I I mean I think we. all resonate with that even as adults. there's this beautiful quote from George. burnard Shaw where he said. that we don't stop playing because we. get old we get old because we stop. playing beautiful yes that's right and I. think that we can relate to that I can. relate to the this idea that I miss play. I think the challenge is that as you.

said in the 1990s when things started to. Veer off course now children given the. choice generally are going to choose. indoor video games phone time iPad and. they're not going to choose play so I. think the challenge becomes now that our. taste buds have become. technological how do we rewire that. taste bud when we've been so diverted. that's right so it's not clear whether. it's that the taste buds have become. technological or that the technology has.

adapted so profoundly that it now knows. exactly what we most want so uh I was. born in 1963 I remember when the game. pong came out it was the first video. game you could get on your home. television so it was very very crude but. it's was amazing you turn a knob and you. can play tennis and I'd sit there with. my friend and we'd do that for you know. 20 30 minutes and we'd go do something. else um so these video games were not. immersive they were fun and and you. played with a friend. um but once you get you know you get.

graphics cards you get color monitors. you get high-speed internet you get. multiplayer video games these games are. incredible I mean my son plays fortnite. I didn't let him on in sixth grade when. he was 11 but I did let him on 13 around. covid time um these games are incredible. and as a boy what's most exciting is war. games and so the games just get better. and better and and this is actually. something we we need to talk about you. know so much of the talk about social. media and girls with boys it's a.

different problem boys there are many. that are harmed by social media many are. driven to Suicide I don't want to say. it's okay for boys but social media use. is not so correlated with depression and. anxiety for boys it is for girls for. boys what's happening is the technology. is so amazing and the real world is. getting more and more inhospitable to. them I mean we've been really trying to. reduce prejudice against girls and open. up girls and bring them into every. that's all great but girls are just so. much better in school they just do.

better in school they school is made for. more of a a female child than a male. child it's for you sit still you learn. you please the teacher um and we've. we've pushed Out rough and tumble play. we've reduced recess there's no more. shop class so boys aren't enjoying. school as much as girls um boys um are. enjoying the technology more and more. and it's not just the video games it's. also the pornography um so you know war. games and sex those are deeply appealing. to boys and young men and as the. technology gets better and better now.

you know if you're a boy with buding. sexual urges and you have two choices. one is the most incredible pornography. you've ever seen and then soon there'll. be goggles soon it'll be put into into. sex dolls and robots I mean you can have. this amazing sex life that you can. customize you can customize the body. size you can customize the personality. you know you can have virtual. girlfriends and boyfriends now so boys. are finding uh uh video game play and. pornography more and more satisfying and. it's just difficult to arrange a soccer.

game with your friends that's just. difficult let's just meet online and. it's difficult to flirt with a girl and. develop a relationship and fall in love. and have sex that's really hard um so I. think we're losing boys um it's not just. because their taste buds are rewired. it's because the technology is amazingly. good at learning what do we most want. let's deliver that but it's not what we. most need it's what we most want and. what's the cost of that what's happening. to boys brains and Minds so the big.

picture is that boys are failing to have. the kinds of experiences that will. toughen them teach them skills teach. them virtues and turn them into men um. boys development is different from girls. development all around the world. traditionally um boys generally. initiation rights involve more. toughening toughness demonstrations and. we can say this is terrible and. patriarchal but I actually think it's. important um so you know all kids start. off in the female sphere we all live we. know we're all raised by mothers and.

girls and aunts traditionally around the. world um and so girls stay within the. female world and girls initiation rights. are usually pegged to puberty to. menstruation and then they're taught all. the secrets of of being a woman all that. boys have to make the transition from. the girl the women's world into the. men's World and less so today I'm not. saying it needs to be this way I'm just. saying it generally is to some extent. boy development is different from girls. development and boys um if you give them. the easy way out all the time the many.

of them will take it and then they don't. they don't grow they don't toughen and. so I think what we're seeing now is is a. generation jenz born after 1996 and. later in which the girls are. extraordinarily anxious and depressed. much more so than the boys um but the. boys are extraordinarily undeveloped. many people say they have no social. skills they don't look you in the eye um. they don't know how to behave in public. they certainly don't know how to talk to. girl so I think we're seeing just a.

massive massive blockage of development. and you know jenzie the oldest St 28. we'll see um we'll see if they come out. of it but when the Millennials were 28. they had already invented so many. companies they were inventing. Technologies I mean the Millennials by. 28 they were like you know a meteor. streaking across the sky and gen Z seems. much more to be hunkered down like you. know talking about their anxiety so I'm. not blaming them at at all um it's not.

their fault we deprive them of play we. put touch screens in their hands then. they had the bad luck to you know. basically come out of college the eldest. of them right into covid so those in. their 20s now their work experience was. truncated what they need is mentoring in. a real office or a real job and they. didn't get it so again I'm not blaming. but man we have to have a lot of. sympathy and we have to make sure this. stops we have to stop this right now and. I think that's the challenge right A lot. of people say well people are going to. have virtual girlfriends and we are.

going to live in the the virtual world. and everyone's going to go home and put. their headset on and you know disapp. disappear into the abyss and then we'll. be wearing it all day not just in the. evenings and so there's that belief. system that actually we're just getting. better at using the technology that. would define our future success anyway. or future failure if we don't know it. but you're saying that there's just what. what are the I guess the harsher. implications of what does this look like. in 20 time okay so I'm very influenced.

by by one of the puzzles that I first. tried to deal with is why you know what. made jenz why because when I started. this work when I started writing the. Kling the American mind with Greg. lukianov we first wrote an article in. 2015 in the Atlantic and we thought. college students were Millennials the. you know the millennial generation. started in 1981 and you it was expected. to be if you're born all the way up. through 2000 you're a millennial that's. what we thought um but then jeene twangy. came out with her book I Jen and her. research showing that kids born around.

1996 and later are very different much. higher rates of mental illness and so. when you look at the millennial. generation their mental health is. actually pretty good you know the. youngest Millennials are a little bit. more like Jen Z but for the most part. the Millennials mental health is. fine they made it through puberty before. they got their first smartphone and. social media account so if you didn't. get a so you know Millennials like a lot. of them got you know Facebook when they. were in college in fact originally. Facebook was only for college students.

you had to be in college to get. Facebook so what we see in the data is. that if you didn't get a smartphone in. social media until you were 18 or older. your mental health is fine now you know. let's say you're 35y old right now you. might feel overwhelmed you might feel. that this thing is stressing you out but. you had normal brain development you had. you you used technology when you were a. kid you had a flip phone you used it to. connect with other kids you used it to. you know you'd have to text and it was. hard to text and you had to use your. thumbs and press number keys. but you use the technology as a tool to.

help you meet up with your friends or. maybe you called them on the phone that. was it that's all your phone could do. but if you got a smartphone in social. media at the start of puberty which is. what almost all kids do now um that. means you're going through puberty on. social media and with a with a massive. entertain with a supercomputer and a. entertainment system in your pocket with. you all the time so my point is this if. we can protect childhood and let kids. get through puberty and then we give. them the goggles and the virtual. girlfriends and everything else their. lives are still going to be kind of.

messed up by this stuff but at least. their brains matured and they're. probably not going to be depressed and. anxious for life if we if we keep giving. it you know it used to be at you know. 1011 is when kids get their first. smartphone now it's more it's going down. to five or six um if we keep giving. little children a touchscreen device. including an iPad and and using it as a. babysitter and saying oh yeah yeah you. just you know here here's here's your. device I'm busy I'm doing email I'm. cooking here's your device. if we keep doing that um we're not our.

brains are not going to adapt to that. children's brains are not going to. somehow evolve so that that becomes okay. it's not going to be okay yeah and it's. it's it's such a harsh reality but it's. true that people have less time we have. less we are doing so much more it seems. we are living further away from family. there's so many reasons why the iPad is. becoming the babysitter that feels. validated because we're not living in. bigger family spaces we don't have the. support of our neighbors we don't have. we don't have the resources or the funds.

to have a a paid babysitter or whatever. it may be so there's so many almost. valid reasons for why we even say take. the iPad no that's right again you know. in my book I have almost no really no. criticism for parents yeah and some. people say you know why don't it's the. parents responsibility it's their fault. why aren't you blaming the parents to. which my answer is you know I'm a parent. I know a lot of parents a lot of us are. really trying and it's really hard I. mean the technological environment now. is such that you know if you don't give. your kid a smartphone she's left out and.

she you know says Dad I'm the only one. I'm left out so parents are trying and. as a social psychologist who studies. morality I know that if one person does. something that seems evil well maybe. they're maybe they're evil but if an. entire society and if an entire planet. changes at the same time in the same way. it's not individual's fault and so if. parenting changed certainly across the. english- speaking World um we can't. blame the parents for that there must be. some reason why we all freaked out and.

began. overprotecting um so yeah I don't I. don't blame I don't blame the parents I. say we're stuck in systemic problems and. I'm proposing Norms by which we can. escape and I think anyone when I've been. mentioning you were coming on the on the. show I was talking to people about your. work and I was talking about your. recommendations of no social media. before 16 no phones before 14 and I. don't think there's any adult that I. spoke to that had any debate with either. of those I think everyone looked to me. you know I'm talking to everyone 25 and.

up but anyone that I talked to 25 and up. went that makes perfect sense I think. that's a great idea and what a brilliant. recommendation like when when do we get. started like that's right that's right. people are ready to get started because. everyone sees it everyone's sick of it. yeah and and obviously in the book you. hold you say here's what governments can. do here's what technology companies can. do here's what schools can do I think my. question is and I know you've talked. about what they can do in so many other. places which is fantastic my question is. how do we actually get that to be a. reality like what does it actually take.

to change Norms because I was trying to. think and and I'd love your take on this. like when was the last time we tried to. do that in any sphere of life and how. did it go and and where did it work and. where did it fail so we have a lot of. experience with Norm changes so one of. the clearest is smoking it took 20 or 30. years uh when I was in high school in. the 70s um you know a bunch of kids. smoked most of us didn't but a bunch of. of high school kids smoked you know age. you know 15 16 17. and beginning in the ' 80s or 90s there.

was an anti-tobacco campaign and it took. a few decades um but the rates of. smoking are very very low now now. there's vaping kids moved on to vaping. which is bad but not as bad as smoking. um Norms around lgbtq and shaming and. bullying and using racial slurs these. Norms have changed radically in the last. 20 or 30 years so Norm change normally. happens over the space of a few decades. and we have many many examples there's. we've been studied so some things get. more moralized like smoking is now seen.

as evil whereas homosexuality which used. to be seen as evil is now seen as. perfectly okay so Norms change over the. course of decades what's happening now. is very different what's happening now. the digital world has put us into an. environment in which things can spread. within minutes I mean this has never. happened in human history um Norms can. spread around the world in days not. Norms but ideas or memes can spread. around the world in in days and what. that means means that Norms can change. very quickly too and so all over the.

world all over the developed world uh in. 2010 kids had flip phones no social no. social media on their phones in 2015 we. have now the phone based childhood all. over the world kids are behaving the. same way so that that changed very. quickly and that put pressure on. everyone else to do the same thing okay. so we're stuck in this Collective action. problem that emerg very very. quickly but by the same token we can. escape very very quickly because. Wherever I Go the main counterargument I.

get is parents who say h you know it's. just it's too late the trains left the. station what are we going to do this is. the way of the future so resignation is. really the only obstacle I'm. facing but most parents so many parents. are upset by this that they're ready to. act if only some way can be found to. coordinate them so in the UK I just got. back from London a few days ago in the. UK the parents Revolution started in. February um a couple of mothers Daisy uh. Greenwell and Clare Reynolds they just.

put up um on a Instagram post they put. up that they started a WhatsApp group. for parents who wanted a smartphone fore. childhood they were going to delay. giving their kids smartphones and like. overnight tens of thousands of of. British parents signed up there's a. limit on WhatsApp groups they had to. form local they had to form hundreds of. WhatsApp groups it spread like wildfire. and what I'm finding I've been involved. in a lot of efforts to change ideas and. Norms it's very hard takes decades on. this one I don't have to convince anyone.

on this one it's like everyone's ready. to act they just need to know what to do. um and so you know I'm proposing these. four simple Norms as you said the two. that I would add that I add uh that we. haven't mentioned are phone free schools. we must keep the phones out of school. there's lock them up as soon as you come. in that should be doable that is doable. this can be done by September yeah and. the fourth is give far more free play. and Independence in the real world. that's the hardest one actually but. that's incredibly important so let me. actually just take advantage I'm. actually very excited you have this. gigantic Global a I was about to ask my. next question how can we help what can.

we do because I I want to be a part of. the mission great great so so here's. what I can say uh first let me just give. a little background which is is this. just happening in the United States no. um uh if if listener if you so all over. the world please go to after babble.com. after Babel that's my substack it's free. nothing's behind a pay wall uh that's. where we're putting our research out um. and you'll find articles there uh we. have one post on on how the the mental. health epidemic is hitting all the.

anglosphere countries and so this so. Zack Rous this was his first. International Post we've gathered all. the mental health data we can from. around the world most countries don't. have any but the developed countries. often do um so we can show that the same. thing is happening at the same time in. all the Anglo countries and then he. moved on to Scandinavia same thing's. happening at the same time in the. Scandinavian countries now that's very. interesting because I just had an. interview with a Finnish journalist this. morning and she said you know in Finland. we let our kids out like our kids at 78. they're out playing but even still she.

says they go outside to play and they. sit down and they're on their phone. because they all have phones from the. age of you know six or seven so so this. is happening all over the developed. World um I in Europe Zach has a post on. the rest of Europe it's especially. Northern Europe it's a little less so in. Eastern Europe and southern Europe um so. first there is variation around the. world in mental health that that is. definitely important but what I'm. finding is parents everywhere are seeing. their kids not playing they're seeing.

them sit on their phones at recess in in. countries where the kids can have a. phone in their pocket at recess the kids. are often sitting down on their phones. they're not running around and yelling. and laughing so wherever you are in the. world figure out you know figure out. whether you have this problem you. probably do that your kids even if. they're not depressed they're missing. most of childhood they're missing. Adventure they're probably have fewer. Hobbies they probably don't read books. they probably don't spend much time with. other people so this is going to. influence them in a bad way around the.

world um and then start talking to other. parents um the simplest thing most of us. are on a text thread with the parents of. our kids friends because you had to. arrange for the oh this birthday party. okay I'll pick them up and you know so. we're all in contact with the parents of. our kids friends just start with that. say do you know do you see this problem. are you concerned and especially if you. have younger kids you can delay when you. know you can delay when you give your. kid a smartphone if your kids friends. are in the same boat then it's not hard.

that's the point of this Collective get. getting out of the collective action. problem um I would also urge um anyone. around the world bring up the subject of. phone-free schools if your child so a. number of countries France um. Australia um a few countries have and. Britain um just have guidance that. schools must go phone free they must. either you know lock them up or lock up. the phones in a lock special Locker and. a Yonder pouch a lockable pouch um but.

if your country doesn't do that start. advocating for it if you go to anxious. generation.com that's the website for. the book we have a whole research Page. look at that send that to people I have. all kinds of talks I've given on YouTube. you can find my YouTube channel lectures. about why we need to go phone free so. that's right that's the thing we can do. this year we can do it in 2024 is make. all our schools phone free and that will. allow our children to learn more because. when there's sitting in class they don't. have the world's greatest entertainment. center in their hand ridiculous and.

they're not texting and they're not. bullying each other and they're not. doing Tik Tok challenge they're actually. listening to the teacher or passing. notes with other kids which is fine. they're interacting with other kids. that's actually okay with me why haven't. school's done it already I I feel like. it's a because a few parents complain in. the United States the only problem the. only reason they don't do it is that. American parents are so overprotective. many not all so overprotective and. they've gotten so used to being able to. text their kids throughout the day so it.

could be you know hey Johnny how did you. how did your math test go and they might. even te text that during the math test. and the kid checks his phone during the. math test um you know or oh I'm going to. be late for pickup like okay do the kid. need to know that during English class. like why not just you know let when when. he gets his phone back he can see okay. you'll be late for pickup um and in. America we have the problem that because. we do have school shooting now they're. extremely rare but they're happening. more so some parents think oh if there's. a school shooting I want to be able to. talk to my child and this is a huge.

mistake because if there actually was a. shooter on a school campus what you want. is the kids to follow directions and do. what they were trained to do you don't. want every kid pulling out their phone. and crying to Mom and Dad so I've spoken. to many principles or or heads of school. and I asked them why don't you B you. know ban the phones and they always say. the same thing there' be a riot among. the parents well only among some parents. and so if you're listening to this. podcast you kids in school talk to the. head of school and say no I want my kid.

to be in a phone free school I want my. kid to listen to the teacher and to. interact with other kids so that's. something we can all do right away and. do you have resources on how to have. that conversation effectively okay. brilliant I do so at anxious. generation.com we do have some you go to. resources or take action and then. there's a tab for parents there are also. two organizations in the United States. there's smartphone free. schools.org and smartphone free schools. movement.org so we have two different. organizations that are they show you. here's a sample letter that you can send.

here's what you can do um in the UK. there's smarton prech childhood. co.uk. So within a number of countries there. are already movements but you know what. you can just use the resources from The. American or the British one um and you. know what this Global audience start. your own um come to anxious. generation.com we have a list of aligned. organizations mostly in the US and the. UK but there are a couple in Canada. there's I think one in Germany there's. one in somewhere in Latin America so. people are starting these parents are.

rising up all around the world let's. join them let's talk about before we. dive into spirituality because I was. curious to see you had a chapter. dedicated to that inside the book talk. to me about the difference in girls and. their use of social media versus boys. because like you said and I'm glad we. talked about young boys because often. they can get forgotten in the. conversation but let's talk a bit about. young girls and how social media is. having a far more adverse effect on. their Mental Health First the evidence. of a link is just very clear for girls.

um with girls their mental health was. very stable until 2012 and then in 2013. it starts Rising it really is a light. switch for boys it's not so sharp it's. more gradual um secondly um the. correlations for girls are much higher. the correlation between time spent on. social media and mental health problems. so for girls the evidence is much. clearer now why why the connection um in. the book I go into the psychology of of. motivation and there are two categories. of motivation they're very important to. understand agency and communion so.

agency is the desire to be an agent to. make things happen you know when I was a. kid it was so exciting to take a BB gun. and shoot at tin cans because I pull a. trigger and the thing Falls over it's. it's an incredible thrill so that's. agency making things happen um communion. is connection being with friends bonding. sharing stories sharing emotions I. really enjoyed that too everyone has. both motives on average on average boys. and men are have a little bit more on. the agency side it matters more to them.

when you let them choose what to do. they're going to go out they're going to. build a tower and then knock it over my. friends and I used to build model. airplanes like World War II fighter jets. then we'd we'd put like rubbing alcohol. in them and then we'd light them on fire. like that was really fun to do so that's. agency making things happen communion is. connection girls if you let kids play. the girls are much more likely to sit. and talk they want to connect and what. are they talking about other girls. they're talking about relationships. they're developing their mental map of. space so girls are a little more.

sophisticated about social relationships. they think more about them they share. emotions more and that's a strength. that's that's something that that's why. women excel in certain professions uh. and Men excel in other professions um. but the differences aren't so much how. good they are they're what they enjoy. doing and so when the companies come. along and they say hey do you want to. see what everyone's doing do you want to. see what everyone's saying do you want. to see what they are saying about you. this is like catnip for girls this is.

this is they really Target the girls. insecurities and they get girls to come. on and then there's drama which brings. more girls on um now boys are affected. by this too but it's it's not it's just. not as alluring and if you give so when. everyone gets multiple screens you know. by 2010 2011 and the iPad comes out. multiplayer video games everyone is. tempted by screens the boys go rushing. into multiplayer video games and porn. they do a lot more of that the girls go. rushing for Instagram Pinterest Tumblr.

especially the the visual platforms okay. so now why is this so bad for girls and. I go through I think five reasons in the. book uh so one is just the social. comparison girls are always judged more. on their looks I just came across a. quote from epicus I read stoic writings. in the mornings epicus commented in. ancient Rome about how when they turn 14. girls are are are judged as sexual. partners and they focus they're made to. focus too much on their look and you. know this is a sad thing that these. girls are are are just becoming focused.

on their looks what's happening now. because girls it's constant social. comparison with other girls who get. praised for being not just beautiful but. sexy so whether they know it or not. They're copying porn star type poses. porn star type looks they're being. hypersexualized massive social. comparison and on average they don't. measure up because if if everyone on. Instagram is actually appears much more. beautiful than in real life well then. everyone else is below average so the. social comparison hurts girls more than.

boys um the nature of aggression is such. that boys aggression is more physical. and it's ultimately about who can. dominate who who can beat up who if it. came to that girls aggression girls are. just as aggressive but it's different. girls aggression historically and across. cultures and even across species um is. more relational girls will damage. another girl's reputation or. relationships and boy does social media. allow them to do that anonymous ly and. on the weekends too it used to be that. girls were safe from bullying on the.

weekends but because they're out of. school but now they're not so and then. there's the sexual predation you know. there are sexual predators that are. going for boys but if you're a boy on. the internet you're not being constantly. sexually proposition by older men I mean. it happens but it's not that common if. you're a girl on the. internet we just published an article. from Antonio bear who was a Facebook. whistleblower and his research within. Facebook within Instagram actually was. that 13% % of teenagers 13 to 15 year. old. teenagers had gotten some sort of a.

sexual proposition or someone coming on. to them a stranger coming on to them in. the past week in the past week. 133% so if you're a girl online it's. just you're just living among Predators. you're like you know the animals we. talked about before in the Woods After. Dark you're more frightened so for all. these reasons when kids shifted from a. play-based childhood to a phone based. childhood it was more devastating for. the girls VI and I were talking about. this yesterday what's your take on uh he.

was he was suggesting this idea of. everyone on social media being verified. oh yeah having to be verified what would. be your take on that oh my god of course. that has to happen so think about it you. know we're in America we're afraid to. let our kids out in part because we. think they'll be abducted there'll be a. stranger hanging out by the playground. luring them into a car and that has. happened in America it's very very rare. there's only about 100 150 cases of true. kidnapping by Str in this country every. year so it's extremely rare but it does. happen we're very afraid of strangers.

approaching our. children um but guess what the strangers. are not at the playground anymore. they've moved to. Instagram okay so the idea that we're. going to put our kids on platforms where. strange men can reach them flirt with. them say that they're a 12-year-old boy. or 15-year-old boy exchange fake photos. including a photo of your daughter in a. bathing suit or less this is complete. Insanity um I don't think we should be. having children interacting with. complete strangers um the sextortion.

Rings now it used to be just 10 or. 20,000 a year reported um in in the. United States it's way more now there's. a Nigerian gang the Yahoo boys I think. it's called they've industrialized it so. we don't know but you know hundreds of. thousands millions of boys are getting. six distorted now and dozens are known. to have committed suicide it's probably. hundreds who have committed suicide but. most we don't know about um because you. know they're flirting with what they. think is a girl and then this criminal. gang trick fix them into sending a nude. photo and at that point then they say I.

have what I need to ruin your life send. us send me $500 right now or I will send. this to all of your contacts this is. complete Insanity that we let our boys. and our girls interact with criminals. day and night so what I would like to. see um is first we just have to raise. the age so you know below 16 they just. shouldn't be on it at all they they need. to be in contact with each other over 16. okay you know this is the nature of the. world people are going to be interacting. with strangers there are some benefits. to that there's networking issues but if.

you were on a platform like LinkedIn. LinkedIn people use their real names you. don't hear problems about LinkedIn the. problems are especially on Instagram. Snapchat um any platform that has. Anonymous strangers interacting um so if. we had if we had both age verification. which is essential we we have to get age. verification eventually and then also. identity verification now here I'm not. saying that the government needs to. mandate identity verification on all.

platforms the world would be a much. better place if we did that um there. would be many fewer threats to democracy. if we did that Russian agents and. Chinese agents couldn't like just drop. crazy rumors and make us hate each other. in America the way they do so I would. prefer that we live in a world where. every platform has mandatory identity. verification you could still post with a. fake name but in order to open an. account you have to show I'm a real. person in this country and I'm old. enough but I would be content even if. it's not mandated I would be content if.

platforms just made this the default. what if meta or let's say not meta. they're not going to do it but what if. there was an alternative to U Instagram. in which people had to be. verified uh and then they had all kinds. of other safety features if they have an. immune system built. in now how would I feel about letting my. 16-year-old daughter on that much better. than on a platform where she's. interacting with criminals from around. the world have you spoken to meta yes.

I've spoken to why would they not do it. well they say they're working on it they. say they're working on age verification. but they I've seen nothing from them. they I shouldn't say they haven't done. nothing they did they've done a few. things one thing is they at least I. think they set the Privacy defaults to. high for under 16 I think it is whereas. it used to be you know you you know. you're you're a nine-year-old you lie. you say you're 13 and what you say is. public that's completely insane so they. have taken a few steps but not much and. again Antonio Bear's testimony to the.

Senate last year was I showed them. what's happening the sexual solicitation. of teens I I told them a simple way to. have this reported they didn't do. anything so I think um meta in. particular has shown itself resistant to. changes suggested by people within. that's why we have a couple of Facebook. whistleblowers um so I'm hoping that. market competition will help um I'm. hoping that Congress will repeal the. mistakes it made in the United States we. created this problem for the world um we. you know our companies created this.

stuff our Congress said that we're not. allowed to sue them for what they do to. our kids they can show our kids whatever. they want and we can't sue them it's a. special law that says we can't sue them. uh but in other countries they can and. so I'm really hopeful that all around. the world people initiate lawsuits when. their kids have committed suicide. because of things that happen on social. media um I hope that people will. initiate proceedings if they can um if. it's clear that it was caused by by on. online activity uh and then Cong. the US Congress created this really this. very ridiculous law that the age at.

which you can sign a contract with a. company give away your data without your. parents knowledge without your parents. consent is 13 which is insanely low um. it should that I think needs to be 16 or. 18 but it was set to 13 in. 1998 with no enforcement in fact the way. the law is written as long as Facebook. or Instagram or SnapChat as long as they. don't know you're underage they're fine. but if they ask and then they find out. that you're under 13 well then then now.

they're responsible so it's very. important for them that they not know. how old their users are and we have to. change that we have to get to the point. where they have to know of course they. do know how old their users are they. know everything about their users but. they don't kick them off so we have to. get to the point where the companies are. held responsible for underage use in the. physical world it's like it's so absurd. you know people say tell me well it's. the parents job to keep them off okay. imagine a world in which we generally. think kids should not be exposed to.

hardcore sex to drugs to violence and to. addiction so we have age limits on bars. strip clubs brothel there you know the. brothel in Nevada and in Europe um and. casinos we have age limits on those what. if someone said you know it's the. parents job to keep the kids out of that. if they don't want their 13-year-olds. into brothel they should stop them from. going to brothel like no that's not the. way it works like no this is a business. this business is hurting kids this. business is responsible for checking IDs. for keeping out Children yet in the.

online world we say well you know what. are you going to do you know N9 year. olds are going to be watching beheading. videos they're going to be watching anal. sex they're going to be watching the cat. in a blender video have you heard of. this one cat and a blender I didn't know. that one it's exactly what it sounds. like and this is something that kids are. exposed to like a it's an actual cat put. in a blender and killed yeah I have not. watched the video because I don't ever. want to see it because I'll never unsee. it but I did enough research to know. this is not just an rumor this actually. happened in it was in China um so you.

know this is the world that our kids are. now inhabiting and I'm saying no no wait. at least till you're 16 get partway. through puberty before you're immersed. in this garbage and that is a great. transition to our spirituality. discussion well it's an it's an. ironic situation where we were. glorifying the Millennials to have been. much more productive and effective but a. lot of the Millennials who created. amazing companies are the companies that. are now creating this challenge that's. right is an irony yeah but I read. something around over 10 years ago and.

it talked about how humans defined what. was most important to a community a city. or a town based on the tallest building. that was built and so previously it was. the church or the place of worship few. years later that transformed or few. decades later that transformed to the. government building yeah and then. decades later that transformed to the. corporate offices and and now the tech. companies or the financial instit. and so we saw how Society has shifted. its North Star I was curious to see why.

you brought a chapter on spiritual. elevation and degradation into this. conversation and how is it connected. yeah so my first book was called the. happiness hypothesis finding modern. truth and ancient wisdom what I did in. that book it grew out of my teaching. psych 101 introductory psychology at the. University of Virginia I noticed when I. was trying to explain psychology to 300. you know students I would quote sh spe. you know there's nothing good or bad but. thinking makes it so well that Insight.

is actually also Marcus aelius and. Buddha Buddha says we are what we think. with our minds we make the world um and. so I realiz wow you know across the. Millennia across the continents people. have come to these deep insights about. psychology about happiness about love. about Consciousness so I collected I. read a lot of ancient wisdom all over. the world and I took out every. psychological claim and I organized them. and I made it into 10 chapters and you.

know so some of them are you know like. you know be slower to judge quicker to. forgive you know Jesus says judge not. lest ye be judged you know and I have a. whole chapter on how our moral. psychology is such that we jump to. judgments we care about our tribe we. don't care about the truth you know so. so that was my background I I wrote that. book on Ancient wisdom and then I wrote. the coddling the American mind with Greg. lukanov and we talked about these three. great untruths the ways that students. are being taught you know that they're. they're fragile ancient wisdom is you. know what doesn't kill you makes you. stronger there's quotes from all over.

the world about that um but kids are. being taught no you're fragile like uh. you know if someone says a word or a. name that can be violence against you so. we're making mistakes here um so that's. sort of my background is thinking about. ancient wisdom in Psychology all right. so then I end up writing this book The. anxious generation and I'm it's July of. last year and I'm way behind deadline. and I'm already really stressed about. like. you know I'm so far past the the. deadline in order for us to get the book. out but I felt like you know what I just.

wrot this whole book about kids I. haven't said anything about adults but. we're all feeling it most of us at least. are feeling it where something is wrong. you know the you know when I got my. first iPhone it was so amazing I loved. it um but these technologies have become. our Master they're changing our lives. and I decided you know what I I'm going. to write a chapter for adults I'm just. going to stick in a chapter what is it. that's happening to all of us and I just. start making the list you know it keeps. us indoors it keeps us distracted and I.

suddenly realized wow almost all the. ancient insights into how to live the. phone based life is the opposite and. once I saw that I said oh my God that's. the structure for this chapter so I. opened it with my earlier work on moral. elevation I I I study moral emotions I I. used to have writings on moral elevation. which everyone will recognize when you. you see a story about you read a story. you see a you know on the news or. anything about heroism about loyalty um.

about devotion you know a dog that um. you know was so devoted to its master. and it keeps coming to the train station. to greet him I mean you know we're. easily moved and we feel it we feel it. in our chest and it it's the Vegas nerve. um gets activated our heart rhythms. change um there are hormonal effects uh. there's um um oxytocin is released women. lactate I I showed that experimentally. in a study with Jennifer Silvers so I. did all this research on moral elevation. and the key to it is the psychology of.

up and down some things make us feel. closer to God uh some things make us. feel further from God that's the way. cultures talk about it um and it's. always a vertical metaphor God is up the. devil is down so this is my view I'm a. Jewish atheist myself I don't I'm not a. Believer but I've had some religious. experiences I've had a number of. spiritual experiences so I know these. are an important part of human. psychology and once I put in that. framework that ancient Traditions are. trying to move us up they're saying you.

know meditate you know Hindu Traditions. Buddhist Traditions you know things. everything out of India is much more get. control of your attention get control of. your Consciousness otherwise it just. gets drowned in trivia but no you know. meditate live purely do your work with. Mastery come out like the moon come out. from behind the clouds and Shine That's. a loose translation of from the dapada. but what does a phone based life do. constant notifications constant. interruptions my students at NYU you. know they get two or 300 notifications a.

day on average on their phones many of. them never go 10 minutes without. interruption um so so I just made a list. and it was things like spiritual. practices involve making something. sacred and we all agree this thing is. sacred and we worship it we have sacred. days so you know in the Jewish religion. we have the Shabbat you know Sabbath. you're not supposed to use Electronics. if you're Orthodox um things are sacred. and it's the sharing the sacredness. binds us together that's what every. religious community does but a life.

online nothing is sacred there's no. there's no sacred time there's the. internet never closes it's Global um. there's no there are no holidays there. are no holy days um and the constant. demand for you to post about your brand. what you're doing look at the amazing. life I have so we have a posted after. Babel we we we're just taking on this. really wonderful British writer a young. woman named Freya India jenz. writer and she has a post which starts.

with you see a photo of of a young woman. posing for a sexy selfie on the train. tracks in front of aitz here she is. she's on some tour of aitz the. concentration camp but it's a nice day. in Poland and so she poses in a sexy way. in front of the gates of hell and so you. know if everyone's a brand manager all. the time nothing is sacred oh and it's. All About You whereas one of the keys to. spirituality is it's not all about you.

you actually are not that important it's. only when you can transcend yourself. transcend your self-interest that you. can open your heart to God to to our. higher motives to love to other people. so you know you just go through the list. whatever the Ancients urg us to do to. achieve spiritual progress a life lived. online even for us adults pulls Us in. the opposite direction I couldn't agree. with you more and I think what's really. interesting when I'm hearing that and. that's primarily why I started this show.

the goal and the intention behind this. show was how can we avoid gossip how can. we avoid the juiciest scoop how can we. avoid the lowest hanging fruit and still. get as many or more views than everyone. else on the internet beautiful because. my belief system was that if you were. able to make wisdom go viral then you. could actually raise. Consciousness and if we keep feeding.

people junk food and junk content it's. actually not that hard to get clicks and. Views but if you actually just as if. you've retrained your habits when you. put a healthy meal in front of someone. it can taste like the tastiest meal in. the world because you've retrained it. and we've seen that like I know that the. audience that listens and watches us. which is all across the world every age. bracket and every demographic is. choosing to do something healthier with. their time but I wonder when I'm. listening to you Jonathan I'm hearing.

the challenge again goes back to the. iron ironic point I made which is if. creators are not informed and trained in. sacred. creation you end up creating things that. have the flaws of the Creator and so. when oh beautifully put right when I. look at what the flaws of the Creator. that's beautiful yeah like i' I've. always thought when everyone's like oh. do you think AI be manipulative of us. I'm like of course it will because we're. manipulative like it's it can't not be.

anything that we've seen so we're like. AI is going to take over the world it's. like yes because humans did like it's. not it's not that surprising and so when. I think of the challenges that I see in. even TV content and streaming content. and how dark it's got and whenever. anyone says to me in my coaching. practice that I have anxiety the first. thing I asked him is what did you watch. last night and it's there's such a. direct correlation between. these cffh that are released in. everyone's brain to keep them addicted.

and so I go where do this education come. in because we can take away and I agree. with you by the way I'm fully with you. we take away what is currently causing. an amplification of insecurity Envy ego. and the acceleration of it but the. challenge is that the seed of that Still. Remains and then gets exercised in. adulthood how what do we do well so the.

first thing is we need to understand. what's happening to us and this is all. so new and um my argument is that the. world change life Chang between 2010 in. 2015 and my book is about how it changed. for kids but it changed for all of us. and we're confused we don't understand. it um these things are powerful tools we. know we adults we benefit from them in. many ways um but we don't understand. what's happening to us and so my hope is. that you with my book with your show.

with a lot of people who are writing. about this I think people are coming to. realize you know we were we were. confused in the 2010s it was so new and. I think we were beginning to get there. to see this is a problem and then Co hit. and we all got super confused by Co and. we needed our online devices all the. time in Co but I think the reason why. things are changing so fast now is. because now that we're coming out of. covid now everyone sees the wreckage. they see it in the new patterns in their. children they see it in the new patterns. in themselves they're sick of being on. Zoom calls all the time they want crave. human contact so so let's just see how.

far we can get just by raising awareness. of this as you're doing on on your show. as many people are doing so two things I. would urge people to think about are you. need to control your own attention your. attention is the most precious among the. most precious resources you have so once. you see your attention as a precious. resource you can stop letting companies. just steal it from you this is perhaps. the most effective thing I do with my. students at New York University and. they're mostly 19 years old plus or. minus and I I I show them how important. attention is they're business students.

they want to have an effect on the world. they want to create something and I show. them if youve giving away all your. attention to Notifications to Tik Tok. you have no attention left so you're not. going to be able to do anything in this. life do you want that no they don't well. okay how about if we turn off almost all. your notifications how about if we take. social media off of your phone so I'm. hoping that some of them will quit. entirely but let's just start by just. don't it on your phone you can use your. laptop at home whatever if you need to. check you need to keep up with things.

just by making a few changes they regain. their attention now suddenly they have. the mental capacity to think to to to. think big to to do things so we we need. a global awaren a global recognition. that our attention is being drained away. as if there was like a like a giant. mosquito you know like a giant drill. stuck into our brain sucking out our. attention we got to say stop we got to. pull the needle out that's the first. thing um uh another is to recognize that. we need to be rooted in real communities.

with real relationships and face Toof. face and touch and so we need to resist. taking the easy way it's so much easier. to set up a zoom meeting than it is to. get in your car and go to visit someone. uh and there's many times when you need. to do that but but we need to rehumanize. our lives and that means more time with. real people not feeling so rushed um and. being able to be open to people and. sharing experiences so that's another. there's so many list I'll just list one. more area where I want to really raise. awareness which is time in nature so the.

modern world we're further and further. away from nature um and as we get busier. and busier we have no time and so after. 2012 when everyone's on social media all. the time everyone's on their phones um. people are spending less time people in. America uh Church attendance has. plummeted since 2011 or so 2012 because. no one has time everyone's so busy with. their notifications and their and their. posts um so exposing ourselves to to. Beauty to Nature going out for all walks. go out for a walk I have my students go.

out for a walk in a park with no phone. and no headphones they can't listen to. music they have to go just walk slowly. and the effects are amazing because many. of them they've never noticed they've. never noticed how beautiful the world is. yeah so we can we can take steps to. rehumanize our lives and how do we resp. spiritualize them like how do we going. back to that chapter of I feel like it's. also spiritualizing of intention right. if someone's creating something and I'm. assuming when you do your research and.

the books you've written and even the. the the one H happiness hypothesis that. you started with and and the journey. that you've gone on it seems like your. intention has been to uplift people. through your work certainly my early. work I used to study positive psychology. and the goal there was very explicit the. whole movement started by Martin. Seligman in the 1990s the whole movement. was psychology is pretty good at taking. people from -6 up to zero we we we're. you know we we have some ways to bring. you up to zero but most people are. actually above zero most people are.

actually doing reasonably well and they. want to go from plus two to plus seven. and psychology had nothing to say to. them so yes a lot of my early work was. about how do we get to plus seven um but. especially with the cing the American. mind and now the anxious. generation I'm I'm now talking about how. do we get from10 up to up to zero I mean. that's the first step um just help kids. help the Next Generation get out of. defend mode out of performance mode and. into a more human real childhood it's.

almost like your students in the you. know the people that will go on to. become entrepreneurs and Business. Leaders it's almost like the challenge. still becomes that even if people think. big and think successfully and think. scaled and are open-minded it's almost. like without the inherent belief that I. should create something to help. others without that no matter what you. create will in some way harm or or cause. difficulty to others because it wasn't.

there in not saying that you can do. something perfectly and not saying you. could build something without any floors. completely that's no one can do that but. this idea that at least if that's my. intention if that's at least my North. Star if that's my compass and I'm. wondering where where people are getting. that from if at all yeah I'll take what. you said and I'll just make it a little. bit more business friendly please um you. said seem to be something like if you. intend to make something that's good for. people or or you know if you have a.

positive intention that's is going to. help people and so you know many people. think like oh you know I should go into. a nonprofit work I should go into. charity work you know a lot of young. people are headed to towards nonprofit. work and a lot of the nonprofits don't. do very much and they're they're wasting. their talents there since I moved to a. business school in 2011 I used to teach. in the psychology department of the. University of Virginia but I've been at. the NYU Stern School of Business since. 2011 what I've come to see is that is. that almost all businesses make the. world better because they're creating.

something that people need and I once. heard a philosopher say in an ideal. capitalist Society the only way to get. rich is by making other people better. off and so you don't have to be all. pro-social you can just say look there's. a need for this kind of wrench I. invented this wrench the world's better. off people need it and and then I make. money that's great you know if I tell my. students if all you do is is create. goods and services that increase this. the general welfare of humankind because. it's a useful product that's great.

you're part you're part of progress um. but now when we look at it that way now. we get a new view of social media. because social media is not a normal. consumer product a normal consumer. product if it hurts the customers. they'll stop buying it unless they're. addicted but with social media and. especially the um the the advertising. driven business model that Facebook. developed originally now many of them. have copied the customer is the. advertiser that's who pays the money the.

consumer is the product they're the. victim in a sense of this and that. explains why for especially for Tik Tok. and Instagram I've seen a couple of. surveys now and I did with my own class. you say do you use Tik Tok you know so. let's do it this way I ask my students. how many of you use um Netflix how many. of you watch Netflix at least once a. week almost all hands go up how many of. you wish Netflix was never invented. nobody. nobody Netflix is Stories full length. Stories We enjoy it maybe we watch too.

much but we don't feel it's ruining our. lives okay how many of you use Tik Tok. once a week most hands go up how many of. you wish Tik Tok was never invented most. hands go up same thing for Instagram so. we have this bizarre situation where a. couple of big platforms especially Tik. Tok Instagram Facebook Twitter a few. others they're sucking up most human. attention billions and billions of. people are spending hours a day day most. human attention is being drained away. for a product that most people wish.

never existed so this is I think the. greatest destruction of human value in. human history these products should not. exist or at least they should not exist. in their present form unregulated not. responsible for the harm they cause. causing massive harm the people who use. them don't overall which they didn't. exist something is deeply deeply wrong. um with with our society and the and the. the nature of these companies which are. now some of the biggest richest. companies on Earth yeah and you could.

argue that fast food companies and junk. food companies have done the same for. years and got away with it too well. that's true that's true but at least. there people are making a decision now. there it's it's part of it is addiction. but at least there you know like I. really enjoy Fritos I just love Fritos. it's just you know something I and M&M. there are a few consumer products that I. love and I you know I know they're bad. for me but I make a decision about it um. and I don't think and and they are of. course they are adding to obesity but I. think social media is so much more. pernicious because if I eat Fritos that.

doesn't make anyone else eat Fritos but. if I get on social media that you know. the more of us are on the more pressure. there is to be on and that's especially. hitting our kids we've got to break that. up absolutely Jonathan it's been such a. joy talking to you and uh so insightful. I'm so glad you gave our audience so. many great call to actions and we'll. make sure we put them in the caption in. the comment section so people can find. them easily uh we end every episode of. of on purpose with a fast five or a. final five these have to be answered in. one word to one sentence maximum so you.

have some something to play with drink. of water let me compose myself this. could be difficult uh Jonathan I these. are your final five the first question. is what is the best advice you've ever. heard or received well what comes to. mind I don't know if it's the best but. what comes right away to mind is what my. father said when he dropped me off at. college and he said uh John the most. important things you learn uh you're not. going to learn in the classroom and it. was just you know it's just advice to go. have experience and and that's actually. something I tell my students now is just.

you take risks have experiences. beautiful uh question number two what is. the worst advice you ever had or. receive um the worst advice I ever. received um hard to say but I think um. generally a piece of bad advice that. young people receive um is you know just. follow your passions um that's important. but I think many young people now think. that they need to be engaged in work.

which is not just rewarding but socially. valuable like as though my first job. after college has to be have all these. features and what I try to tell them is. no no you want to end up there you want. at you know in a decade or two you want. to have work that you love that doesn't. mean you have to love every moment of it. yeah you know think long term think. about the skills you need think about. the toughening you need think about the. experiences you need and it might even. be unpleasant for a while but but think. long term mhm great uh question number. three an experience that you'd never. thought you you'd ever try but you're.

glad you did um I'm really Pro experien. I'm very high in openness to experience. and I always kind of wanted to try. everything so you know whether it was. psychedelic drugs or um you know travel. all over the world so I actually can't. think of anything so you've done them. all well I I've done I mean I've done a. lot of different things in my. life yeah yeah which I've talked about. on some podcasts now that now that. Michael Polland has written a book on it. now that people can talk about. psychedelic experience that is you know.

I mentioned before I've had a number of. spiritual experiences some of the most. intense ones were on psychedelics. question number four an experience that. you are excited to try this year an. experience I'm excited to try this year. uh well this well actually going to. Wimbledon my my son have you ever been. before no it's going be amazing my my. son is graduating from high school and I. wanted to give him something special I. said what's something that that you. what's an experience you want to have. and he said wimble he loves tennis we go. to the US Open in New York but he's. never been to Wimbledon oh you're going. to have the best time yeah so I was able.

to scr up a few tickets and we'll go a. couple of days fantastic that would be. great okay Fifth and final question we. asked this to every guest who's ever. been on the show if you could create one. law that everyone had to follow what. would it be I mean I'm thinking kind of. practically here you know um you know. one would be that businesses that impose. costs on others um that are not party to. The Exchange should have to bear the. cost so basically get rid of. externalities and social media imposes. so many. externalities um but if I if I have just.

like one Dart to throw one thing to ask. right now I'm just going to say let's. get uh effective mandatory age. verification on the internet so that. some sites um are actually like porn. sites are actually not open to Children. um I think a law like that would be. that's that's going to be the big hard. one that would be a real game Cher so. again not very I you know hoping you. know it would be great if I could come. up with you know some version of K's. categorical imperative here um but uh no. I'll just go with those are the ones.

I've been thinking about fantastic. everyone thank you so much for listening. the book is called the anxious. generation how the great rewiring of. childhood is causing an epidemic of. mental illness Jonathan height thank you. so much for joining us on on purpose I. really am encouraging everyone who's. been listening and watching to go ahead. to the sites that Jonathan recommended. see if we can be a part of the mission. support the work that Jonathan and his. team are doing because I couldn't agree. with you more I think this will this is. what I what I love about what you've. done is often I find a lot of thinkers.

and thought leaders create fear based. arguments and without any Concrete. Solutions and I feel that only adds to. the fear and anxiety in the world and so. I'm very grateful that we have very. tangible specific things that we're. fighting for here and I really really. hope that you'll lean on us to help you. and and help be a part of this with you. well thank you Jay I am wildly. optimistic that this is a problem we can. solve in a year or two at least get most. of the way towards solving and I really. appreciate your help in getting the word. out I'm so excited to reach a global. audience because this is this is a panum.

this is a global problem AB so thank you. Jay thank you Jonathan thank you if you. enjoyed this podcast you're going to. love my conversation with Michelle Obama. where she opens up on how to stay with. your partner when they're changing and. the four check-ins you should be doing. in your relationship we also talk about. how to deal with relationships when. they're under stress if you're you're. going through something right now with. your partner or someone you're seeing. this is the episode for you no wonder.

our kids are struggling we have a new. technology and we've just taken it in. Hook Line and Sinker and we have to be. mindful for our kids they'll just be. thumbing through this stuff you know. their their mind's never sleeping.