The 3 SIGNS You're Dealing With A Narcissist & How To SET BOUNDARIES! | Dr. Ramani & Jay Shetty

So, the way gaslighting works is, it's a. denial of a person's reality. That's. step one. I never said that. That never. happened. It's I'm it very. authoritatively saying to you something. didn't happen. That by itself is not. gaslighting. Now, the step two of. gaslighting is The best-selling author. and host of the number one health and. wellness podcast. with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the number one health podcast. in the world. Thanks to each and every. one of you who choose to come here to.

become happier, healthier, and more. healed. And I'm so grateful to our. incredible audience. Uh it's been. phenomenal to see how much you've been. listening, learning, applying in your. lives over the past few months. I love. seeing the reviews. I love seeing all. the tags on Instagram and on Twitter and. the videos on TikTok. It means the world. to me that you're also sharing and. passing this forward. And today's guest. is someone that I've known for a couple. of years. We've interacted in some. really interesting environments. And I. have to say that whenever she speaks,

I'm like, "Wow." Like I I'm completely. in awe. Uh her insights are phenomenal. In real time, I've I've been parts of. like almost group thinks. And whenever. today's guest shares an insight or. shares some wisdom or shares a. perspective, it's so powerful that you know that. there's years of experience, there's. decades of learning that go behind it. And so, I feel really honored that I get. to have this conversation. She's been.

once before, but we were just talking. beforehand about how it was during the. pandemic. So, that was very pandemic. focused. But I think today's going to be. really truly powerful for you. I'm. speaking about the one and only Dr. Ramani, who's a licensed clinical. psychologist in LA, uh a professor at. California State University of LA, and. the founder and CEO of Luna Education. Training and Consulting. Dr. Ramani is. an author of several books. I recommend. them all, including Should I Stay or.

Should I Go, Surviving a Relationship. with a Narcissist, and Don't You Know. Who I Am, How to Stay Sane in an Era of. Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. Now, Dr. Ramani will be adding the role. of host to her resume. She launches a. new podcast, Navigating Narcissism with. Dr. Ramani, a show that focuses on. narcissism and its impact on. relationships. Now, I know all of you. are fascinated by relationships, narcissism, and your mind, there's no.

one better than Dr. Ramani. Uh Dr. Ramani, thank you so much for doing. this. That's a very big introduction, so I. hope I can live up to it. Uh it's true. I And I think we have. We've been in so many rooms. We have a. lot of mutual friends. do, yeah. Uh people that we work with, and I I really mean it. Like, I I love. the way you listen, and I love the way. you articulate what you're hearing and. connecting and putting the dots. together. And you're so in demand, so to. actually have you here today is is. really, really special. Uh I I wanted to. start off by understanding a bit about.

how you came to this work, and like how. narcissism be- Because today you're. known as the person who knows. literally everything about narcissism or. is deeply studying it. When did. narcissism become an obsession or a. focus or a point of study for you? Sort. of around 2004, 2003, thereabouts. And. it was it was in a research capacity, looking at what was happening in. healthcare settings when you had really. demanding, antagonistic, uh entitled patients, and the toll that.

was taking in healthcare settings, which. seems so obvious. But that led me to do. a deeper dive, and I realized how little. this had been researched in sort of. healthcare situations. I was. specifically working in the area of HIV, and so that started a research program. At that same time, I also had a clinical. practice, and in my clinical practice, uh you know, more and more people were. kind of coming in with the same. relationship story, because I was. studying narcissism in my research. I'm. thinking, how interesting. Let me just. shed this light on the patterns they're. seeing that are quite antagonistic. And.

And that just knowing that, and they. said, well, can this change? And the. answer to that is pretty much no. Once. they knew it couldn't really be shifted. that much, it totally changed their. point of view and lifted a lot of. self-blame. So, those were the two. things kind of happening, and that. honestly, should I say or should I go, my first book on narcissism came from. after the sessions, these clients were. so overwhelmed, they'd often say, could. you just put this in an email, right? And I really felt for them, cuz I could. see it was a real real deer in the.

headlights experience. So, I'd knock. out, you know, something in in an email. It also helped me organize my thoughts. And then I thought, okay, I keep writing. the same email. So, let's just make that a book. So, when. the world started sort of going upside. down, I thought, this is interesting. I am going to approach this topic, because I thought, well, this is. actually what's happening right now. And. everyone was using the word. A lot of. people weren't using it correctly. And. that's where that came from. Then from there was where it got.

interesting was. I'm a writer. That's what I do. But two young people approached me, former students, and had said, they were student They were finishing. school at the time. They said, you know, you should really be on YouTube. And I. said, that's ridiculous. You know, at my. age, it didn't make sense. It wasn't how. I consumed media. And I said, let's let's take a few. months. Let's see what kind of how it. how this space works. And over time, years of sort of honing it and tuning it. and all of that, that was actually where.

all of a sudden this reach happened on. this YouTube channel. So, it was an. evolution. But what I found was where. the real sort of pivot was for me, the. worlds of mental health was not. recognizing what was happening to people. in these relationships. And that's when. I got angry. And to me, anger is a great. motivator. I thought, "These people have gone to therapists. and being invalidated, and maybe it's. how you communicate, and maybe you. aren't trying hard enough." And I.

thought, "Oh my goodness." And that's. really for me when it sort of felt like. a revolution. I thought, "Something's. got to give, and if this means that. people are going to say, you know, "What's wrong with you?" And you have a. target on your back. I mean, I've been. called every name in the book, and. people said, "This is an unempathic. therapist. How could she?" And I. thought, "Oh my goodness." Like, I. thought, "People are trying to shut this. discourse down through shame.". And I thought, "Nah, let's just keep. going. I'm old enough to not really care. what people think about me anymore." And. so, I am That's That's really where it. came from. And now, that's just sort of.

the focus. The narcissism piece to me is. interesting from a scientific framing. and all of that, but the real passion. for me is working with people who have. been through these relationships and. have never really felt recognized, seen, or heard to help them with their. healing, and help them find themselves. so they feel that they can stand on. their own in the world and actually have. their voice again. That's the mission. Yeah, so important and so needed. And. I'm so glad that you're doing it. I feel.

like. this is more common as an occurrence. today than. than than ever before. And do you think. that's because. narcissism was somewhat hidden for many. years in the sense that it just happened. behind closed doors? Or like, why is it. only now that we're talking about it so. much? That's such a good question, Jay. You. know, and it's almost like without. giving you too pedantic a history. lesson, is that people have been The. word narcissism in this application, like about other people, didn't really. even start coming into the literature. until maybe the very late 1800s, early.

1900s. Then some psychoanalytic. theorists talked about it, but it was a. really quiet backwater in the world of. mental health. Mental health and. psychology are new fields. It wasn't. even until 1980 where we saw it come the. idea of narcissistic personality. disorder, which is its own issue. This. is very recent to me. What is that, you. know, 40, not even 50 years ago. And so, the this People have been narcissistic. since there have been people. And the.

and actually an interesting framing on. it can actually come from. There's fascinating work and if if. you've never read it, I can't recommend. this book enough. The book behave by. Robert Sapolsky maybe one of the most. extraordinary books I think has been. written in the last 10 years. And to me. Sapolsky is is a giant in in all fields. related to to psychology. And he makes. this incredible he he lays he's talking. about aggression. Sort of why or why do.

people behave aggressively? Why do. people behave badly? And we do know, the science has shown. it, narcissism is associated with. aggression and violence. Like This isn't. just like, "Oh, these people are a. handful.". There's actually a risk here and we're. not addressing this risk. But when you. look at what he says is you look when. you look at the evolution of human. history, he said, "What we do see is a greater. level of antagonism. in people who came more from cultures. where they were hurting. Hurting.

animals, goats, whatever, cows. Why? Cuz. you could steal those things. But people. who are pastoralists, people who farmed, you really can't go get up and steal a. field. I guess you could steal some of. the ears of corn, but you're not going. to make off with the whole field. Farming is more collaborative, hurting. is more individual. So, if you go back. and that is we're talking hundreds if. not thousands of years of human history, how people sort of interacted through. the world economically. You look at. history lessons. I remember as my. daughter was taking world history, we. had a very long drive to school. So, I.

said, "Why don't you teach me what you. learned on the way to school?" She'd. study, I'd learn something. But what I. thought over and over again over 500. years of world history, lot of drives. over many years, is that. what we were seeing is that these people. who are in the history books were all. very antagonistic. They were all very. narcissistic. They didn't have empathy. They were arrogant. They were. aggressive. They were controlling. They. lacked empathy. They had to be the hero. Like it was always the same story. So I. actually think narcissism, narcissistic.

relationships, all of this has been. around since time immemorial. It was. only because psychology is a field in. its relative infancy that we're only. talking about it in this way now and it. is only in the last 15 years that we. have actually started paying attention. to the harm this personality style does. to the other person in a relationship. It's incredible, isn't it? When you look. at it from that perspective about how. long people have suffered from or.

suffered with something because our. learning was still catching up with its. experience. And you think about anyone. who hasn't lived in the last 15 to 25. years, they potentially were called names, outcast, misunderstood, unheard, unseen, as you're saying. Absol- I mean, Jay, I. have worked with clients who are older. Okay, so they've been in 30, 40, 50-year. marriages that have been difficult from. the very, very beginning.

And they said, "You know what? It wasn't. until I watched your videos. It wasn't. until I read your book. It wasn't until. the last 5 to 10 years that this finally. had a name. And until then, I assumed it. was my fault. I wasn't trying hard. enough. I was complaining. I was being. unrealistic about what a marriage should. look like." That's what they were They. were basically, in essence, turning it. back on themselves, blaming themselves, and culture wasn't helping. You know, people were saying, "Well, I guess. you're not Marriage is tough. You have. to make compromises. That's just how. they are. They don't mean it. Their bark.

is worse than their bite. And so, people. would internalize that. And if you. really want to look at it this way, even. historically, we didn't really start talking about. domestic violence until the late '60s. into the 1970s. That's when Lenore. Walker made the whole sort of, you know, the the circle of um abuse in a in a. relationship and all of that. This is. all new. And that was in the '70s. To. this day, we still do not accord. emotional abuse the same level as we do.

physical abuse. And yet, I've got to. tell you, everyone who's physically. abused is emotionally abused. But. emotional emotionally abused people are. showing up with the same level of. symptomatology, often the same level of. post-traumatic kinds of um decrements in. functioning, you name it. So, we're see. it is this is all slowly evolving. Interestingly, the the field of mental. health is still slow to catch up. That's. something that's got to change. Yeah, absolutely. No, I'm so glad we're having. this conversation. And thank you for. letting us go on a history lesson,

because I think it's really important, quite frankly, to understand to really. get context of of where we are. Seeing as you said these words are. thrown around now and they're also. everywhere, and you've probably done. this a million times, but for our. audience, could you please define. narcissism and then narcissistic. personality disorder? Because I do feel. now, as you said, a lot of people are. using this on a daily basis. And while. it's healthy that our language is. evolving, I do often find that people. also get wrongly labeled or early.

labeled or whatever it may be. I totally. agree. And this is a big problem, struggle, call it what you will, is that. so, narcissism's a personality style, okay? So, if a personality style could. be anything, including narcissism, agreeableness, introversion, neuroticism, those are all personality. styles, right? So, narcissism's on the. shelf with them. Now, we would view. narcissism, which sits under a bigger. umbrella called antagonism, as a more. maladaptive style because their behavior.

can often put them at odds with other. people. Things like the entitlement, the. arrogance, the manipulativeness, the. grandiosity. These are sort of really. uncomfortable patterns. That's. narcissism, okay? Now, when we jump the. rails. to narcissistic personality disorder, it's a whole different game. The reason people really get kind of a. bee in their bonnet about this needs to. be diagnosed by a licensed mental health. practitioner is because in order for a.

person to be diagnosed. with a mental illness, not only do they. have to have a laundry list of whatever. is associated with that, whether it's. depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, substance use. disorders, doesn't matter. Personality. disorders are the same. So, you have to. have that list. And, this is the ringer. You have to be able to show that that. person is either experiencing something. we call subjective distress, meaning. that they're uncomfortable, or social and occupational impairment,

meaning that their life is kind of. getting wrecked by this, and they're. aware of it. It's a lot of awareness and discomfort. that many people who are narcissistic. don't have. In fact, they're kind of. sitting on top of the world. They got a. partner, they got a side piece, they've. got a they've got money, they've got. success, they've got power. They're. thinking, "I ain't got no problems.". Now, they're burning down everyone. around them, but you cannot diagnose someone because.

someone else. is unhappy with their behavior. That's. not what our diagnostic systems were. designed to do. So, when we get into. these antagonistic disorders, like. narcissistic personality disorder, it's. pretty rare that people with these. personalities get into treatment. And. when they do, it's for some other. reason. Their marriage is blowing up. They're sub They're using substances. In. some cases, they're depressed. Something's gone wrong at work. They've. been involved in something sort of. publicly that makes them look bad, so.

they go to therapy to save face. So, the. thing that gets them into therapy is not. like, "Uh I've noticed I don't have much. empathy and I'm really entitled and. arrogant. I'm looking for help with. that." Said no one ever. Right. Okay? So, what they're coming in with. something else. Often very arrogantly, like, "Okay, I see your fancy. certificates on the wall, Doc. So, how. long's it going to take you to fix me? I'm paying a lot for your time." Very. dismissive, very arrogant. Now, every so. often you'll see an a narcissist And not.

every so often, not uncommonly in people. who have narcissistic personality. disorder, they may also have something. else going on, like depression or. anxiety. Or like I said, a substance use. disorder. The therapist is going to focus, as we. do, on the more acute issue, the. depression, the anxiety, substance use. disorder. And they'll try to manage. that, right? Through combination of. therapy, maybe medication, whatever they. use. Time goes on, the mood's lifting a little, or the. anxiety's managed, or they're sober,

but they're still really awful and. entitled and arrogant and all this other. stuff. And because a lot of therapists. don't bring personality stuff into the. room, they don't think about it, they're. thinking, "Well, maybe I'm not doing. this right. This person still is not. Like, it's They're still not behaving. nicely, but they're not using any more, and they seem to be Their sleep seems to. be better." And so, you See what I'm. saying? Is the personality's like the. baseline. It's the thrum under the other. stuff that's happening on top. That's. the disorder. A person You have a personality. I have.

a personality. For example, I'm. introverted, okay? Believe it or not, I'm an incredibly. introverted person. That is my. personality. It is not going to change. Next week, I am not going to be the life. of the party, okay? On any given. Saturday night, I tell you the. probability is I am home reading a book, watching TV, or doing something. ridiculous at home. But I'm at home, okay? I can't change that. If you said to me, "Oh, come on, Dr. Ramani, we're going to. make you extroverted." I'd be like, "No, you're not." And And if you said, "But.

you have to become extroverted." I might. be able to stretch myself, but I'll. collapse, or I'll be exhausted, or You. know what I'm saying? So, that's. personality. It is who we are. It's a. psychological fingerprint of sorts. But. it's always right under the surface. So, you're not going to make the introvert. an extrovert. You're not going to make. the neurotic person more sort of um. relaxed and impulsive. You're not going. to take a conscientious person and turn. them into someone who is sort of acts. out, impulsive, and doesn't plan. These.

personalities sort of set who we are. And so, this is the In the case of. people who have narcissistic. personalities, they have very. disagreeable personalities. They have. antagonistic personalities. That's the. difference. And so, before people say it, I'm like, I'll. say, "Does this person have a lack of. empathy? Are they entitled? Do they seek. validation?" Sometimes people say, "Well, I think he's narcissistic cuz he. cheated on me." I'm like, well, he. cheated on you. That's all I got here. I. don't know if this dude's narcissistic.

You'd have to tell me a little bit more. about this person's behavior. And I. think people are using this as a. buzzword to to label or or talk about. someone who did something that. aggravated them. And you got to. remember, narcissism's not a one-off, okay? So, if one day someone did. something like they're having a bad. week, but in general, they're a very. even-tempered, warm, compassionate, kind, mindful, um self-aware person. That's who they are most of the time.

But then, 20 things are going wrong. Parent is. sick, child is sick, job is going badly, and they're a little. bit more short-fused. But they're even. saying, "I am not at my best. I am so. sorry. Cut me a wide berth. You know, I. I'm so so and they're very aware that. they're not behaving well. They may they're not they're not. behaving well in that case isn't. narcissism. It may just be a bad week. That's such a great uh explanation and I. hope everyone who's listening and. watching I hope that's giving you real. context and a wider perspective on on.

how this all fits together. Thank you so. much for that. Genuine masterclass as I. guess. Where I want to start is do we do. we have any understanding or how much is. our current understanding on how people. end up with a narcissistic personality? Because I think that's healthy for. people to have context over too. Like. you said, like whatever personality we. are, we can't change that core root base. of it. So it's worth knowing how we. ended up there because again, whether. we're parents, whether we're thinking of. being parents, whether we're navigating.

the world and concerned about ourselves. or someone in our life, it helps us. understand what are some of those facets. or elements that brought people into. being narcissist as a personality. Right. So this is where it gets. interesting, right? So personality is a. funny little thing where it's it's. there's a little bit of a genetic piece. to it and that genetic piece is. something we call temperament, okay? So. we all have temperaments and we see it. even in babies. Some babies you hold. them in their arm your arms they soothe. like this. They're easy. They're smiley. They're often they're just content, you.

know, and they and they're often kind. and even as soon as that point where. they're sort of aware of who other. people are when toddlerhood they come. into preschool age, they're very aware. They'll take their cookie. They'll split. it in half. There's some kids like that, right? Then there are those kids who no. matter what you do they arch their back. and they cannot be soothed and they're. and they always need attention and they. always want attention and they're mean. to their siblings and they take not only. the one cookie, but they take all the. cookies, right? That stuff that.

biological stuff is foundational in many. ways to our personalities. I'd say to. everyone, if you have access to anyone. who knew you early in life, see how well. like they describe your infancy or your. toddlerhood and how well it tracks to. who you are now. Every so often as a shrink I get to talk. to like a parental figure in that. person's life. Never been wrong yet. Every time that baby temperament, toddler temperament tracks into I'm sure. you were a sweet baby. I am so sure.

I called her mom she'd say Jay is the. sweetest little baby in the Doesn't. everyone say that about their kids? No. Oh my god, no. They'll say oh this. one. You know, I definitely not and I. was a super super super sweet baby. You. know, I'm I think I'm a pretty sweet. adult actually. You know, but a little. intense but sweet, you know. can relate to that. You know, but I I. bet you were and so that temperament. forms like a seed. All right, that's a. seed right there. That temperament is how the world reacts. to us. That kid who's. and won't be soothed and needs attention.

and needs to cartwheel through the. living room. the world doesn't like the kid that kid. that much, right? They go through. babysitters don't like them. Parents are. just a little bit of eye rolling. Kids. are perceptive and it might even affect. attachment because the parent is so. exhausted to dealing with that tough. child. It could even impair attachment. experiences and then they go into. school. Teachers don't like them as. much. Even peers might be frustrated by. them. They're having more invalidating. experiences, right?

That's a little bit of some of the seed. of what we see can be narcissism, right? Because narcissism also has an. attachment piece to it. In general, people with narcissistic personalities. often have more anxious or avoidant. attachment styles. A little bit more. anxious than anything else. And why that might be, it might be that. there was chaos in the family. There may. have been, you know, a bad relationship. between the parents. The parents may. have been distracted with their own. lives. They couldn't be bothered with. having kids. Um. there may have been literal violence,

mental mental illness, whatever it might. substance use, something was happening. in that early environment that may have. impacted the attachment experience. That's also associated with narcissism. We know that in some cases trauma early. in life is associated with narcissism, but that gets tricky because in the vast. majority of cases it's not cuz the. person might say, "Well, I had trauma in. childhood. I'm not narcissistic." Yeah, that's the bet I would take, but we do. see that sometimes especially if that. impacts attachment, that's going to make.

a difference. Those are sort of what I. consider more of the sort of the. difficult early circumstances, the. adverse childhood experience origins of. narcissism. However, there's another. side to it, which is the overindulged. kind of pathway to narcissism. It's like. think of narcissism as Rome and multiple. roads coming into Rome, right? And in the in the sort of overindulged. pathways, this is where you see sort of. your standard spoiled kid. The parents will give the kid anything.

Things and experiences and money, but. here's the ringer. There was a very. interesting study that came out a couple. of years ago where it's not just the. spoiling, but it's telling the child. you're more special than any of these. other kids. Not just that you're. special. That's a lovely message, but. you're more special. You don't That that line's not for you. You know, they'll the other kids wait in. that line. I'll I'll figure you you're. too special to wait in that line. That.

sort of that you're better than the. others. You're more special than the. others, which a narcissistic parent may. do to their child and that's how we'll. sometimes see narcissistic parents may. beget narcissistic kids, but not as a. rule. So, but all these pathways I'm. describing don't always end up in. narcissism. Why some end up that way, I. do think the temperament piece probably. plays a bigger role than we think and. I've worked with many many narcissistic. clients over my years of practice, and.

I've seen all of these ideology origin. pathways play out. But, depending on the. origin, that will affect how the. narcissism looks in adulthood. The more. kind of traumatizing neglect origin will. result in narcissistic people who are a. bit more. um sullen, resentful, aggrieved, sad, socially anxious. Whereas, the spoiled. child narcissism will end up a little. bit more grandiose. So, that that I hope. that makes it a little bit clearer.

Yeah, it adds a lot of color. I mean, I. think one of the biggest challenges we. see is that. when I speak to people, whether I'm. working with them or I meet them or when. they're working with a therapist and. then I'm connecting with them in another. part of their life, most people don't. realize. they're with someone narcissistic until. after they leave. Like, when you write a. book Should I Stay or Should I Go? I've I found a lot of people figure out. towards the end. It's not something you. spot very quickly, at least from people. I know. And I would love to hear your.

experience. You obviously you've done. this. for so long. You You've had so many. conversations around this. I found that. it's not something that people spot very. early or sometimes the early signs of it. even seem positive or it seems that it. can be attractive. Like you said, a lot. of people who are narcissistic can be. ambitious. They can be successful. They. could have achieved a lot of things. through that pain, that trauma. So, walk us through now, if we're in that. should I stay or should I go mode. That's the name of Dr. Ramani's book as.

well. So, as we're talking about it, feel free to order that book. When. you're in that position and you start to. sense there's some narcissism in the. person you're with, A, what are you. going to sense? What are the things that. people usually notice? Why don't we. notice it early on? Like, what about. narcissism is somewhat Is it Can it be. attractive? It's very attractive. And. here's the ringer in these. relationships. I people want the. narcissistic people to be the cartoon. villain, right? They want it to be in.

your face, bad, mean, lying, deceitful, betraying all the. time, right? Well, that would be easy. No one's going to put up with that. The. challenge with these relationships, whether it's a parent, whether it's a. partner, colleague, friend, sibling, you. name it, is that there's often enough good days. in there to keep you hooked. All these. qualities, charm, charisma, confidence, ambition, being fun-loving, being. extroverted, um.

wanting to have all kinds of interesting. experiences. Narcissistic people are. very sensation-seeking. They're. novelty-seeking. It can be really fun. That's why we talk about the love. bombing that happens at the beginning of. these relationships. And what happens is when I've worked. with people, especially those who've. been in longer-term relationships, they'll say, "Doc, it isn't always bad. It wasn't always bad, but the bad is. really bad. Like the bad leaves me. wondering if I'm any good, and I feel. like a bad person, and I feel like I'm. the one with the problem." And on and on.

and on, right? But then, there are those. good days, and the person will often. say, "See, I was the one who was wrong. I'm being I'm being too demanding. I've. got this silly notion of what a. relationship's supposed to be." And I. can set a clock on the fact that it's. going to go back into the downward. So, I think that that's one thing I want. everyone listening to this to know is. that people say, "Well, maybe this. person in my life isn't that. antagonistic. Maybe they're not that. narcissistic cuz we have these good. days." Plan on the good days. It's like. being in a relationship, or it's like.

living someplace where the weather's. always extreme. It's either like 85° and. sunny, or like the most horrific. hurricane blizzard, and that weather. alternates like on an every few days. basis sometimes. And so, as a result of that, it confuses. people to no end. It isn't always bad. There were good moments. There are good. memories, and that's what confuses. people. So, this idea of recognizing. someone in my own podcast, Navigating. Narcissism, we've done now 30 episodes,

right? 30 episodes, 30 conversations about. narcissism. And in every in many of these cases, what I've seen, especially in the. intimate relationships, somewhere around 1 2 3 years, things. were becoming clear. Mhm. Although you. see the red flags as soon as like the. first month, the pieces. turning into something like pixels, right? A couple of pixels teach you. nothing. Lots of pixels make a picture. And it takes a couple of years for a lot. of folks to get enough pixels to say,

"Okay." Mhm. There I There's no not. seeing this, but by then, they may be so. deep into it that cognitive dissonance. kicks in, and you want it to work. So, you tell yourself whatever story you. need to tell yourself so the. relationship can sustain. Well, we have. enough good good good times. Maybe it's. my fault. I'm being too demanding. You'll see this, especially if a person. is trying to find a relationship at a. pressured time of life. They want to. have kids. They feel pressured to get. married. Whatever it may be. But even in.

a family, a person will say, "I can't. walk away from my parents." even though. every interaction the person has with. them is wretched. And And my job is to. help people find that middle ground of. having realistic expectations. But. I do think that when people red flags. are always a story that can be told. retrospectively, like, "Okay, there was. a red flag on the first date. There's a. red flag in the first month." Yeah, yeah. Everyone will say like, "Okay, all. that being late or, you know, all that. um. telling me that they told me not to.

apply to that school because they cared. about me and didn't want me to feel like. I was, you know, they didn't want to. watch me go through the school telling. me that I couldn't get in." But in fact, what they were doing is holding them. back on their dreams. Like the the. pixels turn into a picture. And I think. that that it does take time, and a lot. of people will feel embarrassed. thinking, "How did it take me 2 years to. see this?" To which I say, "2 years is. fast. Good for you." And when the love. bombing ends, and love bombing lasts.

anywhere from 6 weeks to a year. I think. that's about the range. And so, when the. love bombing ends and the devaluing. starts, people are almost this on this. weird addictive treadmill of like, "How. do I get back to that?". Yeah. And what And what do I need to. change in myself? Never stopping to. think, "Okay, this person brought their. A game for about 3 months. They've. shifted. I have not changed." So, if you. can see it clearly, these you can see. the patterns clearly. Things like, you.

know, they'll get incredibly sensitive. to criticism. That's a very common pattern in. narcissistic folks. And so, everything. will be going well, and a person's. feeling more comfortable, and they might. give them feedback I don't know what. they're wearing or the restaurant they. chose or their job, and a rage that. feels like a tsunami will enter the. relationship, and the person will be. like, "What the heck just happened?". Those ego injuries can really result in. these volcanic kinds of, you know, sorts. of shows of emotion. That's when people.

start getting confused and saying, "Maybe I was harsh. Maybe I shouldn't. have said that." Yeah. And so, that what. we see invariably is the survivors in. these relationships take it upon. themselves to try to change everything. about themselves believing they can. change the other person. And if there's. only one takeaway here, it's that. narcissism, like all maladaptive personality styles, is really resistant to change. The more. maladaptive the personality, the more. rigid it is. The more healthy and.

flexible the personality, the more give. and take. So, agreeable people are. incredibly flexible. So, even if they. don't want to do something, they might. think like, "I love her, you know, she. wants to go. And I'm You know what? They've always been there for me, so I'm. going to go to the horror film festival. Might cover my eyes, but then think that. that's the give-and-take of a. relationship, and won't be angry about. it." That's the flexibility. Narcissism. is the opposite. It's like as solid as a. brick. Yeah, wow. And And I think that.

when people end up in those scenarios or. those experiences, we have this. You You raised this point that we almost. try and counteract bad memories with. good memories. Like we That's how we. like to make sense of someone is. well, if they do a bad thing, how many. good things did they do? If they do a. good thing, how many bad things did they. do? Right? If we don't like someone. overall, we'll come up with the list of. mistakes they made. If we like someone, we'll come up with the list of. compliments they made. What's a. healthier way of making sense of. someone? Because I don't find good and.

bad to be that healthy. As you said, it. could mislead you. I always say to. people, you've got to be able to be. comfortable with this concept of. multiple truths. Okay, multiple things. can be true at the same time. Mhm. You. could have had a wonderful courtship. You may have great sex. You This person may regularly gaslight. you. This person lies to you. You really love how they cook spaghetti. They're wonderful with your infant. They often raise their voice at you. Do.

you see what I'm saying? All of these. things are happening at the same time. Mhm. The hardest thing, I believe, a. human being can do. is to sit with those multiple truths and. not run away. It is the ultimate test of. mindfulness. Because we want we we. cognitive dissonance. Our brains are. wired. They're not wired for inconsistency. They're wired for consistency. And when. things are inconsistent, we feel very. tense. We feel very uncomfortable. And. the human species gears towards.

homeostasis. I need to not feel tense. The best way to not feel tense is figure. out, okay, I want to stay in this. relationship, so. uh he's a good father. What more could. you want, right? Now, you can argue the flip side of. that, too, when a person for some reason. feels ready to leave a relationship, they may say they may. cherry-pick all the a few bad things and. forget how much, you know, that this. person's actually really well-regulated. and kind and compassionate and all of.

that. I think part of the struggle. becomes what constitutes a healthy. relationship in any culture. Without. that agreed-upon definition, I think. that's half the battle. So, when people. say to me, what's a healthy. relationship? I'm like, oh, easy. It's. kind, it's compassionate, it's flexible, it is respectful, it is cooperative, it's collaborative, there's there's, you know, equitability, and it may not it may be that there's. very clear roles, but there's a. perceived sense of equitability in the.

relationship, there's self-awareness, and there's an investment in the growth. of your partner. That's a healthy. relationship. And people they'll look at. their narcissistic relationships and. say, I don't have any of those. Yeah. Okay? But unfortunately, culture. will often dictate what makes things. healthy, and then they'll be like, well, they have a good job, they make a lot of money, we are of the same religion, I like how. they look. Yeah. That stuff is I understand why. someone would value it. It's not the. stuff of a healthy relationship.

Yeah, those are the things we start. convincing ourselves through and and. coaching ourselves through and walking. ourselves through. It gets harder and. harder and harder because we get so. addicted, especially going back to where. you're saying about love bombing. Like, being love bombed is really addictive, and it's really intoxicating. because it's like, wow, this person's. really into me. And if I could count the. amount of friends I have this year that. have been love bombed. Like it's insane. like how common it is and it's at the.

shorter end, too. It's at that 6-weeks. mark or, you know, 3-months mark where. people are showing their their full. self, I guess, is the right way of. saying it. How do you stop yourself from. being love bombed? Like how do you avoid. being love bombed or how do you navigate. being love bombed? Because I think. that's the conversation. Like we're not. going to be able to stop being love. bombed, but you are going to be able to. slow things down. You are going to be. able to rethink. You are going to be. able to But we just love being loved so.

much and, you know, it's kind of like. the confidence boost we never had and. it's it's the influx of positive. compliments we never had. So, how do we. slow What do we do? It's a tough one, Jay. You know, I mean, listen, if you. put like. a bunch of I don't know. cupcakes or sweets in front of me. Starting to eat it, right? Knowing that. Okay, Ramani, you don't need to You. don't need the sugar. You know, we're. going to turn to then I'd say, "You. don't need the sugar. You don't That's. not good for you." Then that's easy I.

think easier when it comes to food. I think that what happens with love. bombing might actually be more addictive. than drugs because it's often addressing. a deficit many people believe they've. experienced in their lives. that they weren't seen, they weren't. recognized, they weren't valued. A lot. of people didn't get that in the in the. early part of their lives. So, that. someone's coming along or in their. dating life they didn't get it with. other people. So, when someone comes. along and is offering it, it almost. feels like an offset to those other.

relationships where a person didn't feel. valued or seen or any of that. Think. part A number one is that you need to. know what it is. So, when it's. happening, you're more aware of it. It's like It. again using a hurricane analogy. It's. like preparing for it. So, if a person. says, "Oh, hurricane's just rain and. wind." I'm like, "Mhm, maybe not." Like. let's get those, you know, let's board. up your windows, let's sandbag your. house, evacuate. Like, it's not just a. raging storm. So, knowing what it is. means you're going to prepare yourself.

in a different way. That's one thing. The second thing is love bombing becomes. a place for you to test the waters. Okay? So, I tell people, pull back on. that throttle. Let's come down in. altitude. Let's fly this plane a little. slower. Now, in most narcissistic. relationships, if a person tries I'm not. saying end it, but tries to pull back. Like, can we go a little slower? Or, you. know what? We don't need to go to that. place. Let's just go to this simple. restaurant. Or, I don't know about.

traveling yet. Like, I'd like to get you. know to know you better. You put those lines down and set those. boundaries. In the majority of cases, the. narcissistic person's going to jump. They're going to do things like doubt. your commitment. I guess you're not that. into me. Or, oh yeah, okay, I get it. You're not You're not vibing. Cuz what. you've done is you've taken away their. game. Right? Now, if they were really, really. a good, solid person who just happened. to be super into. dating you, then they'd say, oh.

you know what? I was I was so interested. in you. Let me slow this Let me slow my. role. I think I've got I let my. enthusiasm and they'll be. I let my enthusiasm get the best of me. They'll be self-aware of what they're. they're doing and might say, you know, I. think that I just you're really. wonderful. And but thank you. And. they'll receive the feedback and say and. say, you know what? Let's go to that. hole in the wall restaurant. That sounds. great. And it won't be an ego injury. And they won't view it again because.

you're taking away their game. That's. the That's the example of gaslighting, which by the way, today was designated. as the word of the year. What? Yes. Merriam-Webster Dictionary called. gaslighting the word of the year. Which. to me, let me tell you, I literally. started crying. I thought, after 15. years of talking about this stuff. quietly, I cannot believe that this is. finally entering into the mainstream, but people still use the word wrong. But, the fact of the matter is when when. you simply say something like, "I really. enjoyed getting to know you, but can we.

just step it back a bit?" And a person. says, "Well, I guess you're not that. interested in me." Then, you're being. gaslighted cuz that's actually not your. experience. You actually are quite. committed and want to slow it down to. see what it's like. But, that's a great. way to test the waters. That would be. like that would be me saying, "Can you. take all those cupcakes away? I'm not. interested.". Yeah. And I'd still be like, "I really want one.". Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's that. Exactly. Yeah. Let's Now that you've. said that, I didn't realize that's that. is incredible that it's the word of the. year in the sense that at least we're.

understanding it. It's sad that it's the. word of the year because it means more. people are experiencing it. It's like. the, you know, But, but can you again. properly clarify us what gaslighting is. again so that we don't misuse it and, you Absolutely. And I'm when I saw that, I'm like, "I'm going to bring this up. with Jay today." Because it's. that. When it came up as the word of the. year, gaslight A lot of people are confused by. gaslighting, right? Now, the origin of. the word is is actually is only in the. last. less than 100 years. It was a name of a. play that became a film, and, you know,

it was literally about the psychological. manipulation of a woman by her husband, and and how she psychologically sort of. falls apart because that's happening. Fast forward, the only people who talked. about gaslighting were therapists. It. was it was therapist talk. And we talk. about it, oh god, her husband's gaslighting him, you know, kind of thing. And my shrink would say. it to me, right? And I was like, "Oh, you're being gaslighted." So, it was. shrink talk. Nobody else talked about. it. And then, those of us working in this.

space, it was, you know, like, oh, that's the primary tool of the. narcissistic person because it's a tool. of domination. So, the way gaslighting. works is it's a it's a denial of a. person's reality. That's step one. I. never said that. That never happened. You're. What are you saying? Like I I don't even. see what you're talking about, right? You're like. didn't or this isn't happening? So, you. now you're already a little off balance. cuz I'm it very authoritatively saying.

to you something didn't happen. But that's not That's That by itself is. not gaslighting. Oh, okay. No. You got to go Now, the. step two of gaslighting is. then I tell you there's something wrong. with you. Right. You're so sensitive. Like why do you see this everywhere? Or. like Ooh, God, you know, paranoia much? I You know what? I'm going to get you. the name of a shrink so you need to talk. to someone cuz you keep imagining things. that aren't happening. Okay? So, imagine a person in a relationship.

where there's infidelity and they're. getting suspicious. Their partner's. hours, whatever it is, messages. And they say to their partner. what is this thing at work? You keep. staying and you're not you're traveling. Like, is there anything going on that I. should know about? No, there's nothing. going on. Okay, step one. We're not gaslighted. yet, though. Yeah. Yeah. Gaslighting is. but you know what I'm sick of? I'm sick. of living with an unhinged paranoid. lunatic. That's what I'm tired of. Right. There's the gaslight. Now, there's a step three.

Is that it's not a one-off. One time, yes, that's a gaslighting episode, but. the true gaslighting abuse happens over. time. Mhm. Over and over and over and it. won't just be about one issue. I never. said that. What is wrong with you? Oh, I'm getting so tired of your paranoia. You're so sensitive. And what happens. then is that other person being told. repeatedly by someone they do trust cuz. gaslighting is predicated on trust. It's harder for a stranger to gaslight. you. Mhm.

Partner, family member, healthcare. provider, um teacher, people who have. some power over someone, politicians. Can gaslight entire societies can. gaslight, right? When everyone is coming. in on one party line and denying reality. and then telling the people who don't. believe that that there's something. wrong with them and do it over and over. and over again, you break the other. person's spirit. You leave them. completely doubting themselves, completely blaming themselves. And so.

what happens is when a person's. chronically gaslighted, you'll see. things like No, no, you know what? This. is my fault. They start say They start. apologizing before they get into the I'm. sorry. I'm sorry. And I'll be like, What. are you sorry for? It's just they got so. used to saying it. So they're they're. they really get shattered by this where. they literally lose a sense of up and. down, night and day. They're just it's a. it's such a cruel thing to do to a. person. It is qualifies as emotional.

abuse. So this idea of gaslighting, great that it's in the public. consciousness, but it's not just lying. Everyone says, Dr. Ramani, what's the. difference between lying and. gaslighting? Lying is a denial of. evidence, right? So today we had our. time to get together and make it up. You. could say, Oh, yeah, you're going to be. here at. 2:00. And I'd say, That's not true. You. told me to get here at 1:00. It was. 1:00. 1:00. 1:00. I know it was 1:00 and I insist on that.

Then you'd be able to show me the email. and say, Ramani, look, it says 2:00. And. then and then I and then I went with. that, right? Then we just close the lie. got Lies get shut down by evidence. Gaslighting is a lie, but wrapped up in. this invalidating bow. Mhm. And that I. mean, when I hear that, it breaks my. heart because I know so many people have. been on the end of that. And you see how. someone may even have started off with. an anxious or avoidant attachment style.

and now that anxiety is through the. roof, or that self- criticism is, you. know, the self-doubt is is even greater. Now that person can't trust again. Now. the person's struggling with. their value and their worth. And and I. know this a bigger question, and I and I. do want to get into it, but. that individual, what could they have done differently. to avoid going inward? Because I What I.

found is that. when someone is potentially probably one. of the other personality types, it's. natural. for them to think that there's something. that they need to change. That's the. natural default of the other personality. types. It's like, well, if something's. not working out, maybe I should change, cuz then it could be better, right? responsibility. Or take responsibility, exactly. And so. and I and I've seen that in myself even. when. even when someone would say the meanest. thing about me, even if I know it's not true to my core, there's a part of me that will still. reflect on it, because I'm like, what.

if? May maybe there's something I'm. missing about myself. But. how do you avoid letting it affect you? Or or are you saying there is no way and. it is going to affect you? I think that. it's a mix of things. And it's. interesting when you when people get. savvy about gaslighting and they know. they're being gaslighted in real time. Now, the one thing you can never ever. ever do is tell a gaslighter that you. know that they're gaslighting you. Cuz. then they're going to double down. Okay? So when it's happening in real time,

is and this is what's so hard, because. it becomes sort of a cart before the. horse thing. Most people haven't done. the therapeutic work of who am I? What. am I about? What is my identity? How do I stand as a person? What do I. believe in? What do I care about, right? Very few people do that work. Because then when you do that, again, I. get this I get this a lot in online. spaces because people a lot of people. out there who are very pro narcissism.

apparently. And so when I come out but. it's a very big organized community. Wow. Dr. Ramani is a terrible therapist. and she's very unempathetic. That was. one of last week's comments, okay? Wow. It has less impact Jay because I don't. know this person. It's a stranger on the. internet. But I have to catch myself because I. know there's parts of me that have that. neurotic structure where I believe. that's plausible just because that's. just who I am and how. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Yeah. The work then becomes.

I have to and it to literally talking. myself out loud. Like, Ramani, you are. empathetic. You're solid. You are a very good therapist. You've. seen really meaningful change in your. clients. Literally, I'm saying this out. loud. However, and this is the. interesting rub, this hurt you even though this is from a. stranger. So give yourself a second. And that might be talk to someone I care. about who cares about me to see if they. can uplift me. It might be do something.

pleasurable. Might mean doing a brief. workout. It might mean Whatever it. means. You know, that there's a moment. when I'm saying, I need to show some. compassion to myself right now because. this person has hit me someplace that. hurts. Becomes a different call to arms. at that point. Yeah. Does that make sense? But the. initial work is who am I and what am I. about? Yeah. You know, and I think that. this is why journaling becomes so. important because having these places. you've written things down where you can. look back and say, I I really have come at things from the.

heart. And sure, I've made mistakes like. everyone does. But listen, this is a. this is a highfalutin This is me having. been in therapy therapy for 50,000. years, you know? So that's also there. there's a place where that work's been. done and having gone through a life and. had to learn from all of that. That was. not something I was doing when I was 25. years old. So a therapist though could. if a good therapist, it would be a place. where somebody could say, "You're being. gaslighted." And I can't tell you how. many times I've sat with a client and. said, "It sounds like they're.

gaslighting you." And the client would. be like, "What?" And then we'll walk. through what is their reality, who are. they? And then when that session is. done, they'll often say, "I feel like a. big weight has been lifted off of me. because I was literally doubting the. very essence of who I am." And this is. where therapy becomes so important. because it's sort of bringing a person. back to doing that work of who they. really are, what they really stand for, what they're about. So, in real time, it's really about listening to it. I.

have to be honest with you when I with. in the presence of someone who is. gaslighting me and they're actually. somebody. who I do value, I tend to disengage a. bit. You know, I'll just sort of let you. know, I'll say, you know, I'll often. give the okay, we're just seeing it in. different ways. And um I'll sort of. soften and I won't get into it with them. anymore. I will I I don't In fact, one. of my techniques I give the clients I. work with is don't go deep. Don't. defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So, I'll disengage a. bit and realize, okay, this is no longer.

a safe space. And and that sort of feels. self-protective. And I think that that's. almost like retraining an inner critic. to say, "Can I also have an inner. bodyguard?" So that I can just have. someone's like, "Hey hon, let's just. pull you back a little bit." Yeah, yeah. I It's so interesting. I had an episode. with a coaching client cuz obviously it. that that's my I had a episode with a. coaching client earlier this year and. I have a similar approach where I'm. like, I know who I am, I know what I. care about, I know with what intention I.

work towards. And ultimately, if that's. an opinion someone has of me, they're. entitled to that, but but I'm not going. to go deep with it because I know that's. just not my truth and that's not where I. am. But like you're saying, that takes a. lot of self-work beforehand. And like. you said, there's also still an openness. to feedback. There's still an openness. to being better. It's not like you think. you're complete and you're perfect and. your intention's perfect, either. So, I. I really like that you brought it back.

to that because I I'm glad that we got. back to that that at the end of the day, it's about who you are, your intention, the essence of who you're trying to be, and that's ultimately all you have to go. back to before and after. But, it's. hard. But, it's hard, yeah. It's really, really And for people who've been. through lifelong narcissistic abuse, long-term narcissistic abuse in a. relationship, they're like, I have no. idea who I am. So, so I do say that. honestly, and the film, the original. film Gaslight, portrays this as part of.

the storyline. Ultimately, ultimately, she got un-gaslighted, if you will, because just one person. It only takes. one person. And I always tell everyone, you can be the person who turns the. gaslight off for someone else. You may. witness some something and say, that's. you know, you might be at a meeting and. someone might say, "That's not what they. said." And so now you're un-gaslighting. them in real time. It might be you do it. after the meeting if that's safer. Someone will tell you what's happening.

in their relationship and you don't. doubt them. Say, "Oh, come on, it. couldn't have been that bad." You don't. say that. You're like, "I am so sorry. this is happening to you. This sounds. absolutely terrible. Are you okay?". Because what you've done is you've given. permission to this person who's just. told you they're going through something. terrible minimizing it or in many ways. is a gaslighted approach. Like, "Oh, it's it's not that bad." because of our. discomfort with someone else's. discomfort. We can hold this space for. other people and sort of turn that.

gaslight off for others, and you'd be. amazed at how quickly that can turn the. ship around. Yeah, well, what are what are some of. the realistic expectations. for someone who says, "I think I I. change them. I think I can be the person. that helps this narcissistic person. evolve, grow, change, whatever word they. use. Like, what have been realistic. storylines as to how those. episodes and scenarios go? They don't. I. am In In my book, Don't You Know Who I. Am, there is a letter in that book. And I had been speaking in some public.

forum, this woman heard me, and in. somebody was asking me a question in. this in this forum, and she was in a. relatively new new marriage. They've. been together a couple years, married. All the narcissistic top notes were. there in her partner. And she was asking the question, "I don't know. Can I stick this out for. another 10 years? I'm just trying to. figure this out." And then this woman. just did it herself. She had She's one. of the few who's decided to stay the. next 10 years. And she beautifully lays. out, "Honey, this is what's going to.

happen if you stay for another 10. years." It's basically 10 more years of. gaslighting, 10 more years of broken. heart. Um I've worked with clients, Jay, who weren't ready to go. And so, they. say they they sometimes even drop out of. therapy. And a few times I've had those clients. call me back 3 5 7 8 years later. Sometimes tearful. and say, "Nothing changed.". And there's no sense of triumph in me. for that. I recognize that they needed.

to see it the way they needed to see it. I don't get to dictate their rock. bottom. I don't get to dictate when. someone sees something. I do all the. psychoeducation stuff I do, online. education, to see if I might be able to. push the fast-forward button on that, but it's still you get there when you. get there. But. Like, there has been I can say it. probably counts. 10 instances of people, 10 of the. thousands I've heard, that where people. have said, "You know, this person actually, when I.

said I'm done, I'm over it, I'm In fact, recently came up in one of my seminars. in my healing program. And this person. said, "I'm done. I'm out.". Um and she moved into her own place. And her husband ended up going to. 12-step. He ended up going to therapy. He had become more self-aware. And she had found herself thriving. living by herself. But she did love him. And he said, "I want you to move back. in." And she said, "You know what? I'm. still growing and finding myself. So the.

answer to that is no. We can continue. having tentative conversations." And he. didn't rage at her. That was one of the more hopeful stories. I've heard in the last few years. Uh and. and that's that's one in five years. And. so uh you know, that in this case that. this person became more well-regulated. But her telling me that 12-step helped. led me to realize that perhaps addiction. was probably the more powerful piece of. that story. We'll sometimes see sort of. competing kinds of patterns.

But by and large, I have not I mean, it. is the realistic expectation though to. your point. The reason that book is. called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is. about 50% of people stay in these. relationships. They do. And the reasons vary from. finances to children, to religion, to. culture, to. I still love this person, to I'm afraid, whatever the reasons are. No one, not. me, not you, not anyone gets to judge.

those reasons. What I believe in as a therapist is to. meet them where they are at with that. And say, "Okay. So that's I understand I. hear you. I don't get to sit here and. tell you you don't love this person. You. love them. You love them.". I'm here to tell you this is what you. can realistically expect if you stay. Right? And I I use this um sort of. metaphor of going into the tiger's cage. when I'm talking with survivors, which. is there's a tiger, there's a cage. If. it's really a tiger and you go in that.

cage, you're going to get torn apart. If. it's not a tiger, if it's a sweet little. cat, then you might have a nice little. experience. But maybe the only way you And I'm. telling you, and even if I tell you it's. a tiger, you may not believe me until. you get in that cage. So, I know that sometimes my clients say. I have to let them go and let them go. into the cage. When they get torn apart, my job is to help bring them back. together again. And so, going into the tiger's cage is. something sometimes people need to do to. say, I just need to be sure.

That's what Yeah, yeah. And I say, I. understand that's part of your journey, and I'm going to support you in that. I'm here. I cuz I think some clients. think like, well, Dr. Romani is going to. be offended if I go, you know, if And. that's not healthy either. You're going. to. I I'm somebody who has gone back, who. continues to maintain more than a few. narcissistic relationships in my life. for reasons of culture. We're both South. Asian. We know that there's a tremendous. pressure in South Asia, and at least in. actually in many cultures, to sustain.

committed relationships and family. So, I can't roll into those cultures and. say, yeah, you got to go. That's not an. option. But saying to people that you. are not going to get a depth of. emotional need met here. You are going. to be invalidated. The work has to be in. you not believing what they're saying. They are not going to grow empathy. They're going to remain entitled. You. need to. You need to develop other sources of. support, and that might be through. friends, through family, through. spirituality, however what however you.

find those spaces where you feel seen. and heard. Like I said, whether through. other human beings, the universe, God, whatever that looks. like for you. That's your work. So, when. you realize that maybe the normal depth. of a relationship of a healthy. relationship is this, you got this. Yeah. And you're going to have to be ready for. that roller coaster of the bad days, the. good days, and not personalize it. But. in the long term, Jay, staying in that. toxic setting is going to take a toll on. those people, even with all the.

realistic expectations. It takes a toll. on a person. Well, I think you've just. hit something there that that's the real. growth, that whether you decide to stay. or you decide to go, the work of. figuring out who you are and what's. important to you, what your self-worth. is based on, what your value is, that's. going to happen either way. Hopefully. Ho- Well, that's that's going to be a. path that hopefully you'll have to take. either way. And so, whatever you're going to do, please take. that path because that's a path that.

stays with you forever, like. But to take that path. quietly. So, you don't get to So, the ultimate healing in the narcissistic. relationship. comes from a process called. individuation. You become you. Out It's. Imagine like a tree some that's so. shadowing that the plants under it can't. grow cuz they're blocked from the sun. Our goal is to get you out of the shadow. of their branches, to no longer have to. serve as a. in psychological servitude to them, that.

you get to individuate. The problem is. they don't want to hear it or see it. Sort of psychologically alive in a. narcissistic relationship, you have to. skirt a very challenging line of being. authentic in other spaces but not in. that relationship. And that's because that's really hard. because your your authenticity will be. shaved away. But if you make it a very. conscious act that once again, that. inner bodyguard, I'm protecting myself. right now. They don't get to see all of. me because they are not able to hold me.

safe. And I deserve that. So, I'm going. to put authentic me away for a minute. I'm just going to show up. Not going to. be cruel. Not going to be unkind. I'm. going to show up and do what I got to. do. You know, what whether that's just sort. of keep the trains running on time. I. work with clients, honestly, Jay, coming. up with a list of neutral conversation. topics. The weather What What What have. said it beautifully the other day. They. said, "Sports, news, weather." You know, like that's pretty much all you can talk. about in these relationships, right? And. weather tends to be the safest. Can you.

believe this rain? It's really cloudy. I. wonder when it's going to get warm. again. I mean, is And people say, "But. that's not a relationship." I said, "It. never was.". So, you learn that piece, but you allow. your authenticity to bloom in safer. situations. It's like a plant that can. only bloom in the night, but not in the. day, right? The flowers grow just at. night, but there's reasons it can't be. bloomed in the day. You're You're still. going to bloom, but you become a much. more intentional and mindful. person in your life that you really say.

to yourself consciously, even like you might be pulled in front. of a friend's house and say, "I can't bring all of me into this.". You breathe in, and you go and you show up as sort of. part of yourself, but not all of. yourself. And you know what? You know. who the real loser in that is? That fool. of a person who doesn't get to. participate in the full glory, the full. authentic glory of who you are. They. lost, not you, and you protected. yourself. And that that part require The reason.

why I'm hearing from you why that path. after 10 years in the letter, as you. said, is is even so tough is because. being a. less version of yourselves takes so much. strength and so much courage. It's It's. not weakness. It takes so much energy to. be a less version of yourself because. someone doesn't allow you to be your. full self. Correct. It's a restraint, but it's not. And I think for too many people in these. relationships, they're this attenuated,

less authentic version of themselves. They think that they're actually less. than. And I say, "You're not less than. You are actually caring for yourself. Yeah. You're learning that you can't. bring that in. And I have to be frank. with you, Jay. When people really get. this right, they're like, "Okay, I'm not. doing this anymore." Cuz what they were. doing before was they really were acting. in a way that they thought, "If I do it. this way, they'll change. If I do it. that way." I said, "Change is off the. table. From here on forward, you're. moving forward with change off the. table." And I'll tell you, that pressed.

the accelerator for many people saying, even if they didn't leave entirely in. intimate relationships, they often left. But in family relationships, they'll. say, "I think I'm going to take a pass. on Thanksgiving this year. I think I'm. going to not I'm only going to go for. one day of the family wedding." Like. they start setting some real boundaries, and they learn to tolerate other people. saying, "Well, isn't she uppity for not. showing up?" Like that tolerance of. people engaging this sort of enabling. discourse of, "Oh, you're not a team.

player." Or now you're the one who's. difficult, to recognize that when people. take these rather revolutionary steps. of taking care of themselves, that. again, I do believe that self-care. and that restraint in these kinds of. toxic relationships is literally an act. of rebellion. Mhm. Yeah, and I love what. the example you gave that certain. cultures, whether it's cultural, societal, financial pressures that stop. us from walking away, what are some of.

the healthier boundaries people can set. up? So one boundary is, "I'm going to. make time for myself to bloom, to be. authentic in my own space. I'm going to. find friends and community that that I. take strength from." Are there other. healthy boundaries that people can set. if they are currently staying in this. situation based on financial, societal, or family expectations or pressures? Not. to engage in the same way. I think a lot. of people would get sort of with the the. dog with a bone kind of a fight with. them, right? It's just sort of letting.

it go. People will say, "I I don't want. to relent." I'm like, "Well, then don't relent with people you. actually who are healthy and can go be. very sort of deep, mindful, circumspect. people. Don't get into that argument. with them unless you just want to get. into an argument for the sake of getting. into an argument. Something else that. people need to be prepared with in these. sort of narcissistic relational. situations is that there's a lot of. baiting. If you're not giving the. arguments and being as gaslightable as.

you once were, that's not very. satisfying for them. So, they're going. to find a way to go for the jugular to. make you bleed and make you fight back. And I say to people, you've got to know. sort of your your true north, as it. were. And you might not take 90% of. arguments, but if they go after some of. those things you hold sacred, it could. be your children, it could be a belief. system you have, it could be um. people other people you care about, whatever it is, if they go for that,

then you're like, "You know what? I'm. I'm I'm going in. I'm tiger's cage. I'm. going in. I am going to I can't listen. to this. I can't do this." But, recognize it's not going to change. anything, and it's a question of which. depletion is worth worse at that point. Holding yourself silent at such a point. or actually having the argument. And. then I tell people, if you decide to go. in and do that, you need to engage in. some form of just coming back down, whatever that looks like for you after. these kinds of interactions, because.

many, many people will say after they've. had to spend time with a very toxic, difficult, antagonistic, narcissistic, call it what you will person, they'll. feel really depleted. And if you keep. having those episodes of depletion, you're going to get sick. Yeah, I've. also found that, I mean, more from an. experience point of view that. the more you're associating with that. energy, the more likely you become or. adopt certain behaviors, too. I don't. know if you've seen that, where certain. people start adopting similar patterns,

similar behaviors in order to be able to. fight back and defend themselves as a. defense mechanism. Not saying that you. become narcissistic, but that you also. respond by gaslighting or trying to you. know, you're using that person's game. against them because that's the only. play to survive. And you're doing it. consciously, but eventually, I mean, it. just becomes unconscious to some degree. I don't know if you've seen that or. heard that. I I've definitely seen it where people. will say. change. I'm not saying that. that No, I think that people will say, "I don't know how often you'd be willing.

to steal food, but you'd steal it if you. were hungry." Yeah. Doesn't make you a. thief. Yes. That's yeah, yeah. That That. aligns with you. And that's the um. we would all do things we don't. ordinarily do to survive. And I think. that some people until they understand. this personality style doesn't change, that you have to have these realistic. expectations, all of that. Until people. get that, they do keep sort of getting. into the tango with them, which may mean. you know, shifts in terms of. frustration, dysregulation,

um. their own empathy may wane. We know that. there's something called compassion. fatigue. Compassion fatigue is very. contiguous to burnout. And people in. these relationships will say, "My. empathy is gone to hell. Like people are. telling me their problems, I'm like, I I. don't have it anymore." And it's not. that your empathy is gone away, but it's almost like it's been a one. You've just It's almost like a vessel. where the compassion's only going out. and very little's coming in. Yeah. Dr. Ramani, this has been incredible to talk. to you, and I just want to recommend the. books because we only touched the tip of.

the iceberg. The book I'm There's two. books here that I highly recommend. One. is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Um you're going to hear about chapters. about how did you get sucked in, how do. they make you feel, and of course, answering the question Should I Stay or. Should I Go? If you are a friend or in a. tough position in this kind of a. relationship, then this book's going to. help you make that decision. Extremely. practical, applicable advice. And the. other book is called Don't You Know Who. I Am? How to Stay Sane in an Era of.

narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. Um Yeah. this book is also available. right now, and so I highly recommend. both these books. Uh Dr. Romani, is. there anything that you didn't share. that you really want to share from your. heart, or something that's on your mind, or something in the moment that you feel. inspired or called upon to share with us. today? I think that for me it is the. I'm tired of the loss of human potential. I'm seeing in these relationships. Wow. Whether it's a 5-year relationship. or 60-year relationship. And while it is.

very hard for a person to actualize and. give light to their best self while. they're in these relationships, it's not. impossible. And I have worked with people who have. been in long long-term relationships. like this, and yet I see this. their and empathy and compassion are. deeply retained. They still do laugh. deeply, and and they'll say, you know, and they'll say, "Listen, we I can't in.

my in my world, in my life, in my. culture, I can't end this, but that. doesn't mean there's not joy in my. life." And I think for me, what I want. to do is think everyone's been. misplacing their hope in the. narcissistic relationship. The hope needs to be in oneself. And that the hope has to be that there. is this this tremendous untold story in. you, and it is your story, not the story. of them in your life, but you and yours. And to give sort of flight to that.

narrative of you, that to me is that's. the work, that's the healing. And to let. And people say, "Do I Does this ever. fully go away?" And the answer is, "No, it doesn't." It is something that's. there, and I'll say, "Survivors have a. unique beauty, right? It's roomy, and. it's the wound where the you know, the. the wound is where the light enters. you," and all of that. There we say the survivors can see each. other in the room, right? They're the. ones in the audience that are sort of. like, you know, with I'm I'm finally. being heard and seen kind of thing. And.

they they've had a different journey. It's I'm not saying it's better or worse. or more virtuous, but there is a there. can be this sort of depth you bring into. your life after having been through it. It's a loss of innocence. I have to say. you will you'll never sort of laugh and. be in the same way, but you may sort of. when the laughter comes, it feels like a. gift. And I think that. many survivors say, "I'm I'm ruined.". Not only not ruined, there's a depth to.

your to your inner beauty that really. comes out. I'm not saying anyone should. seek it out, by the way. It will find. you. That's the problem with narcissism. in our culture. And so like I said, this. is being done through storytelling in my. podcast. I try to teach about it, but. above all else, to me the work is. helping people heal from this because I. don't believe anyone is defined by this. No, that's so powerful. Everyone's been listening and watching. The podcast is called Navigating. Narcissism. Make sure you go listen and.

subscribe. YouTube channel as well. Dr. Ramani. And of course on Instagram, make. sure you tag us across platforms, whether you're sharing clips on TikTok, whether you're sharing in your stories. or your posts on Instagram. Make sure. you tag Dr. Ramani and I letting us know. what stayed with you, what stuck with. you, what you're going to share with a. friend. Maybe there was a moment that. you know someone in your life needs to. hear. Make sure you pass this episode. along to them. I hope this episode very. clearly defined and described for you. narcissism, gaslighting, love bombing.

Really trying to break down what these. terms actually are, how you can get an. instinct for sensing them, knowing when. they're there, and then the steps that. you can take which are laid out. beautifully in the books and the content. that we've recommended. Really hoping. that you find the help and support that. you need in order to navigate narcissism. in your life in any form. And we're. going to be welcoming Dr. Ramani back. onto the podcast many, many times to. have future conversations about this. theme in different areas of our lives as. well. So, Dr. Ramani, thank you so much.

for your time and energy. Honestly, your. work is so needed and so powerful and. what I love. from sitting down with you every time is. not only is my mind. stimulated and not only do I feel my. intelligence has gained, I always feel. moved by the words you share as well in. my heart space and I really appreciate. that. So, I thank you so much. you so much for opening your heart and. letting that happen, too. If you want. even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the. boxes over here. I'm also excited to let. you know that you can now get my book.

Think Like a Monk from. thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description to make. sure you order today.