Stop Looking FOR Problems if You Want to GROW! - #1 Hollywood Director Judd Apatow

I had to look at the failure as the path. to success. I thought, "Well, every joke. that doesn't get a laugh is teaching me. what not to do." Sometimes we wait for. the result to make us believe that we're. worthy. Yeah. But, there's a moment that. I think when you do what you love, you're like, "Oh, no, I can do this. It's just a matter of time before people. kind of figure it out." The number one. health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only, Jay. Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the place you come to listen, learn, and grow. Today on On Purpose, I.

welcome a true icon, Judd Apatow, one of. the most influential storytellers in. modern comedy and the filmmaker behind, just to name a few, The 40-Year-Old. Virgin, Knocked Up, and Funny People. Together we explore how to tap into your. creativity, push through self-doubt, use. humor to get through tough moments, and. build the kind of resilience that lasts. in both life and work. We'll be diving. into Judd's newest book, Comedy Nerd, a. visual memoir of his life and career.

This book is epic, honestly. I've been. flipping through it and taking moments. out that I want to talk about today for. the past couple of weeks and I can't. wait for you to grab it. Please welcome. to On Purpose, Judd Apatow. Judd, it's. great to have you here. It's great to be. here. Truly, thank you so much for being. here. I'm I'm like I'm so fascinated. by your career, your life, and I feel. like there's so many directions with. which we can go and that's my favorite. kind of person to sit down with. But, the first thing I want to ask is, you. have a book called Comedy Nerd. Yes. You've made people laugh for decades.

What was the last thing that made you. laugh out loud? Uh there's a TV show on Hulu called Such. Brave Girls. >> not seen it. Okay. I I just I I I'll. just recommend that to everybody. It's. just. >> make this show. There's no. >> I I have nothing to do with it other. than my daughter Maude said to me, "I. think I've seen the funniest thing. ever." And then we watched it together. and we went, "Yeah.". So, that's about it. I I and I've been. catching up on The Righteous Gemstones, which I which I was behind on. >> Okay, I've not seen that either. You got. two good ones. >> Great two recommendations. I love that.

I I feel like you and your family just. have such a sweet fun relationship. Are. you always watching shows together and. connecting recommending? What does that. look like? Yeah, I mean when they're young you're. just you know watching The Iron Giant. 800 times in a row with them or or Toy. Story and then at some point you go, I. wonder if they could enjoy The Blues. Brothers. >> Yes. And you try to slip you know some. Caddyshack or Ghostbusters in there and. and maybe a third of them they like. Yeah. And you kind of can't get them to. love the stuff that you love. >> Yeah, yeah. But then every once in a. while I'll you know, when they were.

young I'd walk by their room and they're. like watching Anchorman or something and. I think okay, they're beginning to get. it. How long did it take them to get your. sense of humor and your style? I don't. know. I used to joke all the time that. like they just so don't think I'm funny. Yeah. And you know, I would go do. stand-up and they would be like, how long did you put them through it. for? I'm like 15 minutes. Like, oh god, you. know. Like they felt so bad Yeah. for anybody. that had to listen to me. Anyone who. paid to see you. Exactly. But I think.

that's the funny thing about kids is. they just have no respect for you. whatsoever. I mean, maybe hidden. Like. every once in a while they'll sneak out. Like, oh I guess they did like that. They like they think it's funny to hold. back. Yes. You know, like Maude is in. the movie Funny People and the running. joke for her in the house is she's never. seen it. All right. >> So when she comes over I'll just have it. playing on a TV and then she'll just. leave the room. That's amazing. >> decided this one I will never watch. >> That's amazing. What's her reason? Why. does she want to watch it? I I think she. just realized that it bothered me and.

now it's a lifelong gag. >> That's what it is. That's That's exactly. it. I don't have kids yet, but I can. totally relate to the fact that if I. thought something my dad did was cool, I. did not want him to know. Like I did not. want him to know. And you just got to be. prepared for that as a dad I guess and a. mom. Like I I saw one clip where I think. you and your wife were talking and I. think you said that her her like best. feeling of being a parent was when you. realized your daughters actually got. along. Yes. >> like that. >> was a big big moment. Yeah, cuz you. know, when they don't get along for a. while, then you're like, wait a second,

they called each other. Oh my god, they text each other now. And. then you just get excited that you know, the relationship you always thought. would happen, happens. How how did you. get over that as a parent? I think so. many parents struggle with that. Obviously, we all want to be liked. You. want to be liked by your kid. And this. is the person you love more than. anything else in the world, but for. years, they don't love you. Like I. always say, like I feel like I was. grateful to my parents when I was like. 21. Like it took all those years for me. to turn around and be like, thank you, Mom and Dad, like in a deep, sincere.

way. I may have said it before then. How. did you deal with that? Like it seems. like you have a really great. relationship with your kids, and how how. did you get over that hump of not them. seeing you as cool and funny and all the. rest of it when you did achieve so much? >> Well, I think that they. you know, I think we all got a kick out. of each other. Like we always thought. that they were really funny, and we. enjoyed their personalities. And so, even when you know, you go through the. rough middle school years, you know, we're still having fun most of.

the time. And but I also think like. we're we're like the kind of parents who. are like, you know, don't go to college, then. Leave me alone. Like we weren't. like the pressure parents. You know, we. were trying our best to uh. to say, you know, just figure out what. you want to do. And you know, you chase. your passion. And that that's the main. thing I realized later, which is people. are always obsessing on grades or. discipline, but the thing you're really. hoping your kids have is some sort of. fire to chase a dream. Yes. And I had. never thought about that before. Oh, I. need my kids to have some ambition, some.

energy to take a risk and go after. something. And so, you know, when I saw. that both of them did, you know, that. was a great great relief. >> Yeah. How were you in school? Did you. get good grades? I was like a very. mediocre mediocre student. I went to. school on Long Island, and they used to. do this thing where they would test you, I guess like in sixth grade, and they. would decide how smart you were, basically. And they would put you in. track one, which was the smartest, track. two, which is kind of most people, track. three, kids having a problem. And if you.

were put, like me, in track two, it was. really hard to get them to ever switch. you to a class in in track one. So, I. always thought like that kind of messed. me up cuz it was very early, like 12, where they basically said, "This is the. limit of your intelligence.". You know, and and that like really. bugged me. You'd see like the smart kids. go to class and you could kind of tell. that the track one teachers were. probably a little little cooler than the. other ones. Uh and so, but I I got my act together. I went to USC film school and studied. screenwriting. But, how I got in was I.

just wrote a really funny essay. My. grades weren't amazing. I just sent in a. couple ideas for movies, but my essay. was. it was meant to be funny. I just. described what the buildings would look. like that I would give them the money to. build. So, I just kept promising them uh how. much money I would donate. It was. basically the college scandal. Wow. In. 1985. And I think it made them laugh. Yeah. I. said, you know, you think the George Lucas building is. nice? Get ready for the Judd building.

But, I still have not given them any. money. >> Is that happening? I was about to ask. Are we getting a Judd building? I just. just so that they're not part of a bad. agreement, I literally have never given. them a penny. I'll I'll I'll go speak. there all the time, but I I don't want. them to be caught in anything. >> Yeah. Have you ever reconnected with any. of your like school or high school. teachers or anyone else who taught you. and you had any interactions with back. then that you remember now? Have you. ever. >> Well, you know, the the the man who ran. the the media program and the high. school radio station that I used to.

interview comedians at was named Jack. Demasi, and we're still good friends. And he you know, he was the first person. to say to all of us, you know, "Treat. this radio station like it's real and. just, you know, use use it." And so, we. would like call up and try to figure out. how to get free tickets and free books. and and live on Yeah, we would just like. use it. You know, people were. interviewing politicians and sports. people. My friend was interviewing bands. like REM and and then one day my friend. was like, you should try to interview. comics cuz he knew I was into it. And. then one day I got an interview with. Steve Allen and then I got an interview.

with Howard Stern and Sandra Bernhard. and and that became how I educated. myself about comedy. I did 50 interviews. in high school uh with like Seinfeld and. Leno. And as I look back now I go, it. helped. Like they did give me good. information and most importantly they. were nice to me which I I think made me. feel safe. trying to get in the business because I. thought, oh there's people like that. Yes. >> in there. Yes. Yeah. What was the most. memorable interview that you remember.

for yourself at that time? Cuz you were 15 years old. >> Yeah, I was 15 16 years old. I mean. Yeah, Martin Short I interviewed when he. was promoting SCTV and he was just so. funny. I was always amazed when anyone. would try to make me laugh cuz I was. just a kid. I just saw. Wow, this is the nicest person in the. world. They're like really like. going for it with me. You know, some. people would seem like, oh no, this is a. kid. I don't know I didn't want to do. this. And they'd be like fine but a few people. would be really funny. Jerry Seinfeld. was hilarious and talked to me about how.

to write jokes and gave me examples of. jokes he was working on and and that. all, you know, you know, stayed with me. forever. Yeah, it's so subtle I feel. like it is the things that you learn and. the people that you're around and I I I. wish everyone got work experience like. that. I mean that sounds amazing. Well, it was also a lesson in how to treat. people. Yes. Because you know, I was. just a young person and I would go in to. talk to someone and you know, for. someone like Jerry Seinfeld to to say. I'm going to sit with you for 45 minutes. and.

really take all your questions and. seriously and thoughtfully and that That. a big deal. Yeah, it's such an amazing. experience and entry into the industry, too, like you said. Oh, if I become like these people, then. I can still be a good person and a nice. person. >> Yeah, and and I didn't realize that till. like a few years ago. Like, oh, that was. a big thing about how I tried to handle. myself in the business was I saw these. people like Harold Ramis and they they. were just so kind and funny that I just. thought that oh, that's the vibration. you want to go for.

>> Yeah, do you Did you ever worry about. it? I feel like everyone has so many. thoughts on the industry. Did you ever. have a negative idea of the industry or. worry or fear that it would change you. or make you different or in any way. change your path? I was just really. excited by it. I think as a kid in the. '70s and '80s, just variety TV, Bob Hope. and Saturday Night Live and Richard. Pryor it seemed so exciting. And I also. thought there's not that many people in. comedy. You know, back then it really. felt like all of comedy was 100 people.

So, for some reason I thought I can get. in there. I think I can get a a job in. there. Yeah. And so, I I really was just. determined to figure out how do you. know, what is the path? You know, how do. how do you do it? Yeah, I I had an. interview where you were talking about. how you almost grew up in comedy with. all these amazing other people that are. all icons in their own right as well, like Jim Carrey and Adam Sandler. And. you were almost like you were like we. all grew up with our friends in our. career. Mhm. And I was thinking, what.

was it that allowed you all to be. friends and not competitors and not see. each other as your arch rivals or. your arch nemeses in that sense and. actually say, "Oh, no, you you you said. in that interview you were like, I saw. it saw them as friends." And I was like, "Wow, that's that's special. It's. unique.". >> I think it's different for everyone. Like, for me, I just thought. I can't compete with Jim Carrey. I can't compete with Adam Sandler. I had. an awareness. that these were very special. people. I mean, they were you know,

great friends and and remain and and are. so nice. But back then. just as a fan even when I was, you know, around Adam or Jim, I always thought, "Oh, that's the guy. That's going to be. the guy." You know, like it was like. hanging out with Charlie Chaplin or. something. And and it just turned out to. be true that they were the people who. were going to change everything. And so. I never felt competitive. I sometimes I. was depressed like I had lost the. competition. That's what really what I thought was, "Oh, wow, I'm not built like that.".

>> Yeah. You know, if you're around Jim. Carrey, you're like, "Yeah, I can't do. that.". I can't think that. I mean, I used to, you know, help him with writing jokes. and punching up scripts and stuff. So. that felt like the greatest thing ever. that that he trusted me enough to be a. part of his creativity in any way. Well, well, that's well, that's a great point, too. Like I was looking at from the. other angle, but I love I love the lens. you took it through, which is. then how did you how did you maintain. your motivation. and your drive when you're looking. around and you're thinking, "God, this. guy's ahead of me. This guy's going to.

be the next big thing. Who am I?" How. did you channel that feeling that could. lead to depression and giving up to. actually going, "Well, no, I I still. have something to say.". I think I just thought something's going. to. something's going to happen. I don't. know what it is. I started out as a. comedian and I was studying. screenwriting and I didn't really have a. vision of if I was going to be an actor. I wanted to be a. a comedian. I didn't I didn't really. think that much about being a director.

I thought about being a writer a little. bit and everyone was jockeying to break. in. and suddenly Jim Carrey was on In Living. Color and then Adam got Saturday Night. Live and I was beginning to write some. HBO specials. I wrote for Tom Arnold and. Roseanne was one of my first gigs and. then I met Ben Stiller. and we created a sketch show, The Ben. Stiller Show, together. and suddenly that was happening and out. of some weird fluke, even though I was. very young, we both ran the show, which. was weird. We We didn't really climb the.

ladder. We got a show on on the Fox. network, and so I was just trying to not. screw it up. And And Ben was a genius, so I was. watching what he was doing and trying to. figure out how I could help him run the. show and and not ruin this opportunity. And you know, it got canceled after 12. episodes, but you know, we won an Emmy 6. months later. Wow. And so it became this. interesting. >> How did the timeslot end with an Emmy? It It was a funny thing because I think. a lot of people really liked it. It was. on at 7:30 against 60 Minutes. It was a.

very weird timeslot, and Ben was really. trying a lot of new things in comedy. You know, Bob Odenkirk and Andy Dick and. Janeane Garofalo were on the show, and. so we knew this that the the head of the. network didn't like it. And so the whole. time we were like, "Oh, this isn't going. to last long." And 6 months later we won. an Emmy, and then people categorized us. as. uh People who were doing something. interesting. Right. Almost like an. alternative rock band. Like we were the. replacements or something. And I.

thought, "Well, that's pretty cool to be. a failure who can't get. Yeah, yeah, to not get ratings, but but. certain people that I respect think what. we did was great." And so that kept me. going for a while. >> Yeah, I love that for two reasons. because I remember reading Bob Iger's. book, and he talked about how Steven. Spielberg, Tarantino, George Lucas, that. they would all premiere their movies to. each other and ask for feedback. >> Yeah. And when I read that, I was like, "Wow.". And And he goes on to talk about how. they were so confident in their own. style. Yeah. And they so trusted that.

every person had their own style that. they never felt someone was going to. steal something or take something off. each other. And I thought, "Well, that's. an incredible incredible And these. They're all young at this age. It's not. like they're, you know, they're adults, but they're not mature. people with wisdom. And for them to have. that at that point, and it sounds like. you you're the same where you're helping. each other with jokes, you're building. shows together, you're running together. Like it almost feels like the comedy. version of that. If that was the film. version, this is the comedy version. Well, you when I was young we would.

watch, you know, Saturday Night Live or. Monty Python or Second City TV and it. was these groups of comedy people, these. communities. Where would you do this? You know, we would just be on TV, you. know, you'd be home and you'd watch, you. know, Monty Python would be on PBS when. I was a kid and and. you would see them and think, "Oh, maybe. they weren't." But to me they were all. buddies. >> Yeah. Right? And so Saturday Night Live. felt like a group of friends. I'm sure. they weren't. I'm sure like a couple. were and a couple weren't. >> with Jim and with Yeah, so in my head I. was like, "This is so fun that like.

there's a community here in Los Angeles. of people trying to break in to comedy.". And and I realized, "Oh, that was the. goal really, maybe more than even the. work was like to find that community of. like-minded people to have fun with.". Well, it's a miracle that anything works. because everything in comedy is an. experiment. There's no precedent that. lets you know this will definitely work. So you're always on the verge of massive. humiliation and failure. I can look at. like the newsfeed on my phone and be in.

a bad mood for 3 days. And a bad mood that will prevent me from. being funny. Right. And so I really have to protect my. mental state to disappear into. imagination. But I feel like there's. always healthy and unhealthy reasons to. do most everything. And that's what's. tricky, right? So on one level you're. like, "I love to be creative. I love. comedy." But in your unhealthy part you. feel like, "I want validation." What was. the first moment you were convinced that. I'm funny, I can write funny, I can do. funny? When did that happen in that. journey and process? Yeah, I'm trying to.

figure out when I thought I was doing. well because I was very comfortable not. being good because when I did all the. interviews they all said it takes like 7. years to find your voice. So in my head. I thought, "Oh, I started stand-up at. 17, so when I'm 24 I'll be great." And. so when I was 19. and I was terrible, I thought. perfect. This is where I'm supposed supposed to. be right now. So I had this clock that. was very aware that this was going to. take time and that I had to.

I had to look at the failure as the path. to success. And so I thought well every. joke that doesn't get a laugh is. teaching me what not to do. And then I'm. trying to get the first thing that I. thought was very funny. >> Yeah, that you thought not that the. result worked cuz I think that's a. really interesting part, right? I feel. like sometimes we wait for the result to. make us believe that we're worthy. >> Yeah. But there's a moment that I think when. you do what you love, you're like oh no, I can do this. It's just a matter of. time before people kind of figure it. out. Yeah, I started writing jokes for.

comedians. George Wallace and Taylor Negron and. then I got hired to write jokes for Tom. Arnold when he first moved to town. Everyone was like who's this guy that's. with Roseanne and he was trying to. figure out his point of view in stand-up. and so I was part of that. And then we. did a a bunch of HBO specials where he. would try to solve the world's problems. like reality comedy specials and we. would write these. setups for these reality pieces which. were filmed sketches. And Roseanne and Tom would get big. people to be in and Frank Zappa was in.

one and Fred Willard. I I got Jim Carrey to do one of these. intros and and Stiller and so these. little intros were funny and so maybe. those were the those were the first. things that they shot like oh my god, I. wrote a joke for Frank Zappa and it got. a laugh. and that gave me some confidence. Yeah, to see Martin Mull do your bit or and. just go wow, he's my favorite and I. think I didn't screw him up. I think I. gave him a good joke there. Yeah, yeah. That's I mean the the success the. failure to success piece is so. interesting. I saw somewhere you said.

something like you heard that someone. sold their 10th script and so you felt. you could not sell nine and it would. take time and I love that idea that you. said hey started 17 and it takes 7 years. to be a great comic. And so, at 24, I. think the reason why I'm. picking those two things that you've. said is today I feel like a lot of young. people just feel like they have to be. successful tomorrow because there is a. 16-year-old who has 100 million. followers on TikTok, or there is a. 21-year-old that is a billionaire, or.

whatever it may be. And so, and now. you're aware of what everyone's. achieving, not just your classmates or. the people you're around. And I wonder. if you've ever thought about, your. daughters going into the industry, too, how how do you help them reconcile that. that pressure and that timeline that's. just totally shifted where you can't. take 7 years to become an icon anymore. You should be an icon tomorrow. Yeah, I. I think that that must be tough on. everybody trying to do. anything cuz I I look back at when I was.

living with Adam Sandler, and I I always. think no one was paying attention to us. So, we would go to the Improv every. night, and Adam would experiment and do. weird characters, do Cajun man out of. the blue, and just do all these weird. things. And no one was judging it, no. one was taping it, no one was commenting. about it. So, there really was this. gestation period where you could be. really weird and funny and take chances. and really fail some nights, really kill. other nights. And so, the idea of people. paying attention to that where when. you're really young, you feel the the.

need to put yourself on the internet. probably is not great. for everybody cuz it's also really fun. failing when no one's watching. >> Yeah. >> No, it's fun to play a club at 1:00 in. the morning in front of 30 people and. just do something wild just to see if it. would work. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's almost. like you've got a kind of even if you're. all putting yourself online, you've got. a you've got to feel or remind yourself. that no one's really watching right now. And hey, people won't. they'll only watch my first videos after. I get a following, which will be okay.

And so, there's some of that that you. can kind of take forward. And I I you. know, I didn't direct till I was like. 36, 37 years old, uh movie. I'd done some television. before that. And I was better because I. wasn't given the shot earlier. I think I. just knew how to do it. I was more. mature. I had more to say. And so, I. don't necessarily think it's always. great to get the big break right off the. bat. I love hearing these stories, and. that's why I love the book Comedy Nerds. so much is because. for me, like my first experience of Ben. Stiller would have been Zoolander or,

you know, I'm trying to think of the. first Adam Sandler movie I watched in. Click or maybe something like that. And. it's like you come across this work when. or like with you, it's like Forgetting. Sarah Marshall or like and you you. talking about these huge hits that are. like worldwide famous people, you know, people talk about them, laugh for hours. And that's your first experience. Then. you realize, "Wait a minute, this person. had a TV show that had 12 episodes and. got canceled." And and and then they. went on to do something else. And so,

I feel like it's so sobering to hear it. And I feel like for our community that. are full of creatives, people who are. entrepreneurs, whether you're building a. business, whether you're launching a. podcast, whether someone's trying to. create their own brand or clothing line, it's almost like there's so much. pressure to be first and for your first. thing to be your thing today, I feel. And to know that your. your main thing that you do today that. you're most known for, directing, happened like, you know, 20 years in 20. years in to you doing the thing as.

opposed to 2 years in. And you've. continued to build an amazing career. from it. It wasn't It wasn't like that. was lost time even. You wouldn't say. that from 17 to 36 was a waste of time. >> No, and there was there were fun. projects that we, you know, we all. learned how to. make movies while making. So, you know, I worked on a a kids' movie called. Heavyweights, and that was the first. movie that we shot. And, you know, at. the time it was a little $10 million. movie that made $20 million, and you. know, Ben Stiller played the bad guy. Paul.

Feig was an actor in it. Keenan. Thompson, uh was in it, and our friend Steve. Brill, who I wrote it with, directed it. And you know, we did we didn't know what. we were doing and made this kind of. super weird Disney movie. And at the. time, I guess considered a failure. And. now, 30 years later, it's on Disney Plus. right now. And it's like a big movie. that kids keep watching. So, even the. things where you were learning, sometimes over time, you realize, "Oh, people love that one." Yeah. Even even. the things that at the time were. failures or people didn't quite get what. your point of view was. And then, you.

know, 20 years later, people say, "Oh, I. love The Cable Guy." And you're like, "Yeah, I took a beating for that in. 1996.". And so, and that's the other thing you. learn that it takes time for the world. to really tell you if you succeeded or. failed. You You may, you know, think. that you failed, and then you realize, "Oh, that never went away. Like, people. like that." Yeah. And they watch it. So, now when I make things, I'm not as. crazed about the immediate reaction. because I so many times I've seen things. bubble back up. Yeah. That's why I guess.

making what you believe is so important. And that's one of the reasons why I love. Tik Tok so much because songs that are. 5, 10 years old Yeah. 20 years old, some. of them will have a full refresh because. they hit the Tik Tok algorithm and now a. whole new generation is in love with. that song. Would you say though, Judd, that you felt that way or you felt that. way over time? Did you Have you always. made stuff that you believed was funny. and was made for you and your friends, or did you always put the audience at. the heart of it and it was their.

response that designed it? Because I. feel like in creativity, there's these. two versions where people are like, "I. don't care what anyone else thinks. I. just make what I believe is funny and. what my friends would laugh at." And. then there's like, "No, I'm listening. and learning and taking all the outside. notes, and then that's what I'm focusing. on." What What was your process in the. days when it wasn't working externally? >> Uh I you know, the the main thing is do. you like it? So, as a comedy fan or just. someone who wants to make things that. are great, that's the main bar. Like, do.

I like it? Am I proud of it? And then. the second question is, how many people would like it the way I. like it? Cuz you can make something, and. you know, oh, this is very niche. idea. There's going to be a small crowd. who likes it. And certain ideas you're. like, I think this is great, but I. actually think everyone will like it. >> Yeah. Uh and I was always a big fan of. James Brooks. from when I was a kid, uh you know, watching The Mary Tyler Moore Show and. Broadcast News, and I got a chance to. work on the show he did called The. Critic, and I just saw that he really. cared if the if the.

audience liked it. And he would always. say, if the audience doesn't love it, you. failed. >> Yeah. Like, that's it's as simple as. it's as simple as that. And then if. they're not touched emotionally, if. they're not laughing, you didn't do a. good job. And you know, he was a big. supporter of table reads and getting. input from people and and and doing test. screenings and seeing how people were. interpreting the work. So, it's it's a. weird process because on one level, you're trying to be an artist and stay. true to what you believe in and what you. like, but you're also having this.

conversation with the audience because. if they don't get it, it's bad. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I I think now. creativity's become. in one sense, more. difficult because. the idea of a trend and everyone doing. the same thing is far more normal and. common. Whereas, in what you're talking about, there was. a sense of uniqueness and ingenuity, and. everyone's kind of doing that. Like, Jim. Carrey's not doing the same thing Adam. Sandler's doing. You're not doing the. same thing. If you're working with them.

on a project, that's different, but. you're not doing the same thing they're. doing. And. it's it's almost become harder to stand. out. Well, in one sense, you could argue. to I'm easier to stand out because lots. of people are doing the same thing. >> Yeah. But, it's almost like creativity has very. much become about what the algorithm. rewards. Exactly. And I I I'm I'm glad. to have escaped that. era. Yeah. Uh because. I think that is really dangerous to to. doing something very unique. Mhm. Because the next great thing is the.

thing no one saw coming. Mhm. It's just. the the wild idea or a band that doesn't. sound the way anyone else sounds. And so. there's a there's a lot of great stuff. that all sounds the same Mhm. in music. and you think, "Yeah, that's good." But. it all does sound like these other 12. things. Yeah. And then there's this. other thing where it's like Radiohead or. or whatever. Yeah. And uh and I think. especially in comedy. you do need someone to reinvent the. whole thing. >> Yeah. Like when you saw The Hangover and. you were like, "Where did this come. from?". >> Yeah. Like you know, it was so I Think.

I'm Going to Die was definitely that. Yeah, Will and. >> I Think I'm Going to Die was completely. that. Like. >> Yeah, Will and Adam had their. sensibility of what they wanted to be in. a big comedy and there really wasn't an. an exact precedent for it. And we loved. movies like The Jerk and you but they. had their real take on, you know, this. kind of arrogant American man. who needed to learn some some lessons. and that changed, you know, the game for. a lot of people. Yeah, what was what was. your sliding doors moment or like moment. of like if that didn't happen Mhm.

>> my life could have completely gone on a. different trajectory or in a different. format. I mean, there's so many of them. You know, I met Ben Stiller online at an. Elvis Costello Unplugged taping. And you know, we thought of this sketch. show idea and pitched it 2 weeks later. And everybody thought we were old old. friends and we had known each other for. 14 days. >> Wow. And suddenly we were just. you know, And it was just natural from. the moment you met. There was. >> We just got along great and Yeah. and. creatively we're we're in sync. So if I.

didn't bump into Ben that day, I mean, that was, you know, a pretty big one. Um. I remember seeing Jim Carrey at a comedy. club and. and thinking I think I've just seen the. best comedian in the world. And I called. my manager and I was like, "You have to. come see what Jim Carrey's doing." And. and that was a big moment. Just to to. witness it and. in in movies. Yeah, there's it's just like an. opportunity. Steve Brill saying, "Hey, I. want to make a summer camp movie that's. about a a camp for overweight kids.".

And I just said, "Oh, that's hilarious. If you need help, let me know." And just. him saying yes, you know, changes your. whole life. Yeah. Yeah, it's I I call I. mean, was there anyone that you felt was. so. good, but then you know, didn't have the. career Did you see people that you were. like, "Oh my god, this person's amazing, but they didn't have the career that you. thought they would?" Yeah, there's so. many comedians who are incredible, but. they didn't necessarily transition to. movies or sitcoms, but they remained the. best comedians of all time. Or they were.

just road comedians who were just way. funnier and better than other people, but some people never had that energy to. go, "All right, how would I work in a. movie?" I I think it's a very specific. understanding of yourself and story and. what you do. Adam Sandler started. writing screenplays for himself. when he was right out of college, when. no one wanted him to write a screenplay. for himself. No one was saying, "Hey, write a movie for you to star in." He. just had the sense of, "Oh, this is a. path I think that I I could succeed in.".

And so, even when no one thought you. could be the lead of a movie, he sat in. a room. I remember we sat with my friend Joel. Madison, they just wrote a movie. And I was like, "Wow, you just sat down. and wrote a movie? You can do that? You. can just get out the computer and do. that?" Uh but not everyone had that. belief in themselves. >> Yeah, why did you feel that turn was so. important, that connection between. comedy and then becoming a writer and. director? Why did Why was that calling. important to you? Where did that come. from? Like you're saying, not everyone. made that crossover. Well, when I was.

interviewing people, you know, some. people like Harold Ramis said that he. made a living by selling jokes. And I. just thought, "Oh, I don't have to make. burritos? I could like sell a joke for 50 bucks a. joke to somebody?" or. you know cuz I had you know worked in my. restaurant for a long time. Was a bus. boy, did a dishwasher. So some of it was. just I need money. Yeah. And most. comedians didn't want to write for other. comedians because they wanted to be. famous. >> Yes, yes. >> And I thought I think I can do it and. still do my. stand-up. And I think what it really was.

is I enjoyed hanging out with other. comedians and I enjoyed collaboration. Like my desire to be successful solo. wasn't very strong. I I I think on some. level I thought oh this is fun hanging. out with Ben. And I'm not looking to be isolated. >> Yeah, that's such a great sense of. self-awareness. I love that. Like I love hearing that. for everyone who's listening because I. think there's again like and I'm just. looking at thinking about our community. that watches our show and listens to our. show and has dreams and has aspirations.

and how often by wanting to be the face. or wanting to be number one in a certain. way you can lose out on like this Yes. you know tapestry of stories and. experiences and amazing friendships and. relationships where you're like yeah I. just I didn't really care about being. the guy who was on the screen telling. the joke. I was happy being the person. who wrote and built these universes that. these comedians played in. Yeah I mean. it was so fun like I would go to. Roseanne's house and just write jokes.

with her on Sunday. Yeah. Let's go like. at breakfast time, sit at her. breakfast table with her. She'd bring. out the legal pads. And to me that was. success. I I mean it almost to the point. of. if it didn't get much farther than that. I was already pretty happy. Like wow. there are people that are the best at. this who will let me be a part of their. thing. Yes. And so I was just so excited. to be allowed in the room. Mhm. You know. sometimes I joke that the only reason. why I even wrote anything was to get to. be allowed in the room. Yeah. Like I had.

to prove I was credible to to have these. relationships with everybody. Yeah. When. do you feel most creative and when do. you feel most creatively blocked? I mean. I work so hard to try to figure that. out. I think it's just an ongoing. uh. search for flow state. And so I used to never understand. anything about how the brain works. And. so you know I would you know when I was. young I would write my my process was I. would sleep till noon. I would get up to write.

I'd watch MTV. like Road Rules or some Like I would. just sit and watch TV for like 6 hours. And then at 6:00 I'd think I'm going to. write. Then I would eat dinner. And then after dinner at some point I'd. slowly move to the computer. Now it was. like 7:00 8:00 at night and then I would. write till like 2:00 in the morning. Wow. And that was like my my flow my. flow. And I realized oh this So it's. almost like a post-food relaxation burnt. out all my interest in TV in the world. and then my brain would just like get so. tired it would relax and then.

stuff would come to me. >> Yeah. But then you know when you have. kids Yeah. >> you can't work from 8:00 till 2:00 in. the morning and then you have to figure. out oh I guess I have to almost set an. appointment like okay from 9:00 to 12:00. I'm just going to sit in this chair and. that's something I learned from David. Milch you know who created Deadwood who. who always said you can't. think your way into writing. You have to. write your way into thinking. Mhm. So if. you just start writing your brain will.

eventually go oh we're doing this now. Yeah. And that if you do it at a similar. time. the second you hit the chair your brain. will go it's time to do the thing that. we do. And uh I even took a class on. flow states. One of those Steven Kotler. classes. And. it just totally worked. Like it was like. kind of hilarious and and you know there. were people giving advice about all. right get up don't have breakfast just. drink a little bit of black coffee try. not to eat lunch till noon don't let. your office interrupt you and then.

suddenly I realized oh, I'm really. getting a good 4 or 5 hours done just by. listening to some very simple advice. about not being distracted. Because I. could look at like the newsfeed on my. phone and be in a bad mood for 3 days. And a bad mood that will prevent me from. being funny. You know, I like I won't be able to go. to my world of imagination because I'm. thinking about some problem in the. world. And so I really have to protect. my mental state to disappear into.

imagination. Yeah. Yeah, how do you. balance that then in staying informed. and then. and does that ever inform your comedy? Does that ever inform the messaging you. want to put out there? >> I mean, yeah, as soon as the writing's over I go deep. down, you know, a terrible. rabbit hole of tracking everything. And. then I have to I have to. you know, be aware that. it could just put you in a massive. depression. Because we know too much. Like when I. was a kid, we didn't really know what. was happening in the world. Like I Like. I lived in New York and I I knew a.

little bit about what like Ed Koch was. doing. And I knew they were trying to capture. the mob. And occasionally you hear about. some crime or or a murder. I didn't. really understand what was happening in. Congress as a as a kid. I watched the. news all the time even in like middle. school. And now I know the major. terrifying problems of every country in. the world. And it's too much. It It really is too. much. And if you find it interesting, which I do, like I'm fascinated by how. politics work, how people treat each. other, all the problems of the world, the drama of crime, the drama of.

corruption. I can really I can read it forever. I. just find it so interesting as a. storyteller too. Like look, that person. was in this position and there's the. choice they made. They could have gone. this way or that way and they went this. way. So, for me we are one of my flaws. is I'm looking at too much. And when I'm. in a good writing groove, it's usually. because I found a way to to limit it so. that I could go in my own head and see. what's there. Yeah. Yeah, I read a story.

that said we're exposed to more tragedy. today in 24 hours than we were in our. whole lifetime 25 years ago. Just today. I there was like it's the equivalent of. today that there was 11 Pearl Harbors. in the last 3 days. And so I was like depressed the other. morning and I thought how would you not. be depressed just based on what you read. this morning? >> Yeah. Like it's a trauma response. to all of that. So, you know, for me. What do you do with that? What do you. what do you personally do with that? Because I feel like that's an issue.

everyone who's listening can relate to. >> I try to find things that I can do to. support people or organizations and and. causes that are fighting for values that. I agree with. You know, I you know, every month I do a benefit at Largo in. LA and for a different charity. You. know, I my first job was working for. Comic Relief, this homeless charity. And. so, I've always tried to, you know, be. connected to. philanthropy. some part of your brain is like, okay, you're doing something. Yeah. You're.

doing something and it never feels like. enough. Yeah. Uh but I think everyone. has to do something and just hope that. this collective that they're, you know, you know, move certain causes. forward and and helps take care of. people. But because it is rough to hear. about so much suffering. Absolutely. Uh. and and then, you know, the guilt. response, like should I be doing more? So, I try to spend some time every day. thinking about it and I remember I went. and had lunch with Norman Lear and. Norman Lear had the newspaper out. And I said, "What are you doing?" And he.

said, "This is something that Frank. Sinatra taught me, which is he would. open the paper every day, he would look. for somebody in a bad situation, and. then he would. get on the phone and uh write them a. check.". And you know, someone's house burnt down. or like he would just follow up. You. know, and just someone's got a tragedy, Sinatra would just write them a check. not tell anybody. Just And Norman Lear. tried to do that. So, you know, I like. that type of. thinking. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I.

feel like if you if you feel like you're. a part of the solution, even a small. part, Yeah. >> then the big problem feels a little bit. smaller. Yeah. And you know, so you can. go on GoFundMe or something and help out. in some way. The hard part is you go on. GoFundMe and there's 2 million people. with really difficult Yeah. problems. So, that gets in your head. >> you choose who deserves it? >> Also, you can make yourself crazy, but you. still have to find a way to do it if you. have, you know, the means. Yeah. What. was the biggest creative risk you feel. you ever took?

I don't think of any of them really as. creative risks. I do usually just try to. only work on things that I think can be. really good that I care about. So, it's. not like there's any one decision. I. just think I want to be proud of. everything I tried to do. And if it. fails, I'd like to feel like. I understand why I thought it could. work. And I And I like for things to have a. good heart and to say something. positive. I want to be aware of what I'm.

putting into the world. It's almost. easier to deal with failure when you. really believed in what you were doing. Yeah. To some degree. Cuz if you didn't. believe in it and then it fails, then. you're like, "Well, I didn't believe in. it anyway. I knew it would fail." Well, it's a miracle that anything works. because everything in comedy is an. experiment. There's no precedent that. lets you know this will definitely work. So, you're always on the verge of. massive humiliation and failure. And And. then that's just the spirit of it. Like, I I guess this will work. And sometimes. things work for some people but not. other people. You go, "Oh, this does.

work, but for way less people." And then. some things, you know, out of the blue. like the entire world loves Bridesmaids. >> Yeah. Right? And And it's the same. efforts that everyone puts on. And then. just sometimes things, you know, connect. in a the way. >> Yeah. Such a great movie. Such a great. movie. Absolutely. There's something you. say in the book. You say in your book. Comedy Nerd, you say when I stopped. performing to pursue my writing career. on some level I betrayed myself. The. truth was I didn't believe in myself. Yeah. So that's a part of that story,

too. Was that there was a sense of Sure. >> belief lost. Well, as a fan, I was aware the difference between me. and the people that I was hanging out. with. And and I And I also felt very. self-conscious. I look back. and I think, oh, I was I think I was. pretty in my head. I didn't really know. who I was. I didn't have a strong point. of view. You know, some comedians are. very like surreal. Some comedians are. very angry and they tell you how you. should do this or that. And I was always. right in the middle, you know. I was. just more talking about things I was.

confused about. And And I didn't have. solutions to anything. And I wasn't that. weird. So when I first did stand-up when. I was young, you know, I was on all the. talk the talk shows and did did all that. stuff. But I I knew on some level, oh, I'm not reaching the heights of some of. the people that I admire. And then I. started doing stand-up again about 10. years ago. And and it's much more fun. and I have a lot more to say and I don't. feel as pressured, you know, to to feed. myself with it. And so I can really be. experimental and have fun. I love. knowing though that you could be that.

uncertain, confused, and have some self-doubt and. still find your way. Yeah. >> Like there's something beautiful about. that. I mean, it it stand-up is very. confrontational because every time you. go on stage you're like saying to. people, you you should listen to me. I'm. worth hearing. And you're also saying, I'm entertaining. Like this should. delight you for 20 minutes. So there's a. certain amount of confidence and. arrogance to do it at all. Some people. do it out of neediness. Like they so. need the approval that even though. they're terrified, they'll do it anyway, you know, to get it like crack or.

something. But it's like writing. Like sometimes. like when I don't want to write, I. realize, oh, I'm not writing today. because I feel like I'm going to find. out today that I've lost it. You know, like it by literally by. >> have that now? Yeah, because every time. you sit down to type, you're like this. better be good and I'm going to find out. how good I am right now. And that's the. most unhealthy way to do it. Like that's. the opposite of flow state is like that. the critical voice is just there the. whole time. And you have the pressure to.

be good right now in this moment. What. do you do with that thought? You know, sometimes I have to play tricks on. myself. So if I'm going to write a. scene, the thing about. you know, say you're using a program. like Final Draft and it looks all. pretty. And so when you type like it has. to be good because it's so formatted. You know, it looks so beautiful. It. looks like a screenplay. So sometimes I. have to write without the formats. I'll. just open up a Word document. Now if I'm. going to write a scene, I'll say. okay, take the next. 15 minutes and just babble, you know,

with no punctuation ideas for the scene. And and just keep going and and maybe. like do an experiment like you're not. allowed to stop typing for 10 minutes. Just anything lines of dialogue, things. that could happen, crazy stuff. And and try to get in a state of just. pure. spewing. And then take a break. And then read it with a highlighter and. go was anything in there good? And usually there is. It may be very.

little or maybe it's like the whole. thing is garbage but this one idea is so. good I can't believe it. But you kind of. have to let your. your subconscious. speak and get out of the way. Yeah. And. and get that perfectionist out of the. way that was blocking you and saying. every line you write down has to be. almost like this final line that will. make it into the scene. It's like if you. were trying to think what would a woman. say to break up with me and you just sat. for 10 minutes and just wrote the speech. of why she's breaking up with you over.

and over again. And maybe the 20th time. you did it, you'd have reached some. bizarre place in your brain and it would. be something you never would have. thought you would have written. >> Yeah. From just some old injury. Like. cuz I really don't even understand how. the brain works, but it certainly stores. up a lot of stuff. >> Yes. And it it it pops out if you keep. coming at it from different angles. >> Yeah. Do you Do you believe there are. set of rules to good comedy or there are. no rules? I don't really understand any. of it. You know, like I'm not one of. those people that can really lay out why.

things work or or don't work. I I I tend. to try to think pretty simply about if I. write it as a drama, like if the the construction would work. if there were no jokes, that it won't be. hard to figure out a way to make it. funny. Mhm. So I try to not chase the. joke, try to take chase the emotional. story, Mhm. and then look at it like how. can I make it funny. >> Why? Cuz I think all the situations in. life which are painful Yeah. are really.

close to funny. That's why like in movies, there's so. many movies where it's just like. someone's breaking up with you. Yeah. And it might be funny because you start. crying. It might be funny because you. start screaming. It might be funny. because you run away. Yeah. Uh so I just. trust that, you know, if I. that that sense of why things are funny. that are. challenging or awful, that it'll just. come. Yeah. Uh you know, so when I think. about like Knocked Up and. Seth's trying to talk to Katherine Heigl.

and and she wants to tell him. that she's pregnant with his baby. And so the idea is before that, she's. just asking him questions about his life. cuz she doesn't know anything about him. because they had a one-night stand. And. everything in his life sounds like the. worst information if he was the father. of your child. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he he. he has five grand in the bank. He thinks. over the last 2 years, you know, he got it cuz he got ran his. foot got run over by a postal truck. And. you know, just on and on and on. So but. on another level, you think, "Well,

that's what you would do." So if you. were going have lunch with someone to. tell them that you're pregnant, you. might in the warm-up go, "How's your. life?" And try to get some info out. about what am I in for here? >> Yeah, yeah, that's the emotional need of. safety and certainty. >> Yeah, and she's not getting any safety. And he's oblivious, which is funny. He. doesn't know what he's walking into a. buzzsaw. And so, it's inherently. a very real situation, but for some. reason with certain people, it's it's. funny. I love how much you love. the scenes and and and even the. characters you've created because I find.

sometimes creatives get quite jaded when. something's passed on. You don't feel. that way through the book Comedy Nerd, through talking about it with you today, through all the interviews that I. watched in preparation for this. I I. don't You don't sound when you talk. about your characters in your movies, it's like you're in them and we're in. them and like it's fun. Like how have. how is that stayed and have you seen. other people get jaded? How have you. held on to that joy of what you created? Usually like when it's done, I feel disassociated from having been a. part of it. Mhm. It's It's just a.

feeling. Like that world exists. It's. almost like it happened. I don't think. of it as. the construction. And I know about all. the construction and the the levels and. the rewrites and the rehearsals of how. we got there. But when the movie's done, I I feel like. it's a real world. Like it's in another. dimension and those people are there. Yeah. And they're still going. You know, and I like them. You know, like I you know, you know, for all of. them. Like I I like the the characters. I spent so much time with them and uh. and if the movie came out really well,

um. a lot of times I don't you know, I don't. watch them. just because I worked so hard, there's no part of me that's like. looking to experience it again. So, I. don't have that. that uh. that viewing of a movie that other. people get because I know the story. I'll never really get to see the movie. the way someone else gets to see it cuz. I just know what happens and I've slaved. over like the music cue and the sound. effects. But recently I went to see The. 40-Year-Old Virgin for the first time in. 20 years. We did a screening. >> Wow.

>> at the at the Academy Museum. And I had literally forgotten 80% of the. jokes. I didn't remember any of it. And. it was the first time in my life I It. felt like I wasn't a part of it. >> Yeah. >> And I could just. enjoy it. And I was laughing. I was. proudly like, "Wow, look at these. lunatics go. They're really funny. They're They're going hard." Yeah. Everybody. I love that. I love that. What What's a joke you could make 20. years ago that you can't make now? Um I. think I think people are sensitive to. how we define people, how we goof on. people. You know, when I rewatch this.

stuff, it's not like a ton where I'm. like, "Oh god, why did we do that?" But, there's a few where you think, "Yeah, today I wouldn't have done. that joke." Uh. making fun of people for just being. themselves, what- whatever that is. But, a lot of the times we were talking about. people who get made fun of. So, uh. when I worked on Superbad with Seth and. Evan, >> Yeah. you know, we were talking about how in. every Marx Brothers movie, they would always have a really rich guy. punch Harpo Marx in the face, like in. the first 10 minutes. Because then Harpo.

could do anything to them. Right. And. you know, they represent rich people or. power. But, because they did something. really mean to him, Harpo had free rein to cause massive. chaos. And so, when we were doing. Superbad, they had, you know, one of the. kids spit on Jonah, you know, by the the 7-Eleven type. place. Mhm. And that was it. Then you're. like, "Whatever Jonah does, I know where. he is in school. I know how he's He's. not treated great. And I kind of want.

him to succeed. I want him to, you know, have something nice happen to him.". >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I always. look at it that way. Yeah, I love that. What's your take on What's your take on. the impact of AI and ChatGPT on writing, creative block? Are you a fan? Do you. feel it's going to be useful for writers. now? Do you feel it's a hindrance? Where. Where do you land on the I think. conversation? I I that the the danger of. it is it it allows you to shut off. part of your critical thinking. And so. if you really were into it, I think that.

you'd be losing something while gaining. something. So. if you think about GPS and you go, I. kind of couldn't drive around LA cuz I. don't know where anything is anymore. >> That's me. Uh or I don't remember. anyone's phone number anymore. I think. that if you were asking a machine to do. certain work for you like, "Oh, fix my letter.". Uh it seems kind of good, but at some. point if your chat GPT went down, you. you might not be able to do the letter.

Yeah. >> And so that's the thing that makes me. nervous. I I think it's very helpful for. research. So, I'm writing a movie that takes place. in college and I'm trying to think of. classes to go, "Oh, what's a what's an. interesting class about music? What's a. And that is like really really helpful.". But if you start going, "Write me the. scene of a. I think that you're in danger. And then. you have to ask yourself, "Well, why do. I do it?". And you know, I mean if you were just in. it for the money, I guess you could use. it as a tool. But if you're also in in.

it to to learn about yourself and. through creativity. uh have some self-knowledge and and it's. an an expression of you, you know, then you don't want it in. in your world that way. >> Yeah. It's almost like how hard your. hand hurts when you try and handwrite. now. Exactly, yeah. You're not used to. it anymore. And you. Wait a minute. If I don't have my phone, I got to write. something now. No, there's no cursive. And they say that you're more creative. when you write in cursive than when you. type. >> And so we've kind of eliminated this. thing which probably led to a lot of you.

know, beautiful expressions of how. people are feeling in letters and and. notes and and when people would write. novels. you know, longhand. Mel Brooks, I'm. doing a documentary on Mel Brooks. You. know, he would write all those scripts. on the legal pad. Yeah. And there's all. the research around how doodling helps. our brain connect ideas. And I when we'd. be on the phone, we would doodle while. we would talk to someone and it would. help us And you're getting the flow. state. >> Yes. I mean, and so okay, so now no one. doodles. How much creativity have we.

lost as a result of it? >> Yeah. But I'm scared of all AI stuff. I. mean, I go on YouTube and I just watch. videos about what could go wrong every. night all night. So you know, because I'm always. terrified by the fact that the people. who are in charge of AI are also scared. of it. >> Yes. >> So even the people who are doing it, they're like, you know, it's great. It's. going to change your life. It may solve. some diseases. It also may decide to. murder all of us and not want us around. But I do think it's also going to be. good at teaching you how to play the. guitar.

Great trade-off. Great trade-off. Another line that stood out to me Jared. in your book, you said, "I learned later. in life through therapy that I'd. projected all of my childhood divorce. drama onto the network executives who'd. rejected or abandoned me." Yeah. >> And so I want to dive into multiple. parts of that. Let's let's first start. with I think you've talked about how. you've done therapy for like 20 years. It's been a big part of your journey. Walk me through how the questions have. evolved in therapy 20 years, 10 years, 5.

years, 0 years today. I It's It's. amazing how many new things you learn. as you get older that you didn't quite. understand before because on some level. you understand that there's a lot of. projection happening in your life. But. you know, in maybe the last 5 years I I. I think I learned a lot more about. trauma responses to things and and the. ways that we. just change our whole way of dealing. with everything based on trying to avoid. past pain. And I That was something I.

didn't learn about for the first two. decades of of therapy. The idea that. a lot of time we're just in a in a fight. or flight or a response to everything. You know, I had a therapist say, you. know, when you walk in a room, like say. you're walking in a party, the first thing you do, you might get. anxious and you scan for threat. And then your brain assesses the threat. and they might go, oh, looks like these. people seem nice enough. We can enter. the party. And then he said, the thing. you're supposed to choose is. opportunity.

And okay, I'm going to actually go try. to talk to that that person. Maybe. something nice would happen if I talked. to them. And in some way we're doing. that all day long. We're like scanning, where's the problem? Where's the. problem? And I think that's something. that. has been very destructive for me as. someone who's always looking to solve. problems in a very. OCD type way. Like, what's the problem? How can I solve it before it happens? And then you realize that you're. consumed all day long running potential.

problems. And so that's been a big. thing. Like, how do you let go of a mind. that wants to look for trouble? How do you? It's I I mean, obviously it's some some. version of mindfulness, some version of. noticing. the process and having some higher self. separation to go, oh, I'm doing that. thing again. And can I connect it the the the one. who's observing is me. and the rest is just kind of mental. clutter. But it's really hard. It is.

really hard. >> It is really hard, especially if you get. caught in those cycles and they just. repeat themselves round and round and. round and you're back in square one. What was the particular aspect, the one. that I quoted there, you're talking. about projecting all of your childhood. divorce trauma onto the network. executives. Talk to me about that exact. Well, I feel like there's always healthy. and unhealthy reasons to do most. everything. And that's what's tricky, right? So on one level you're like, I. love to be creative, I love comedy. But. in your unhealthy part, you feel like I. want validation. I want to succeed, I.

want safety. Like if I succeed I'll have. I'll have safety. Maybe I'll have love. And so you have both this very pure. creative love for something and then. this. trying to protect yourself through it. And so, then you're you're doing work. Let's say you hand in a script. >> Mhm. And then someone says, "I hate your. script. The studio hates your script.". So, in your mind you could go, "Oh, are. they Are they correct? Maybe I should. read it again." Or you could go,

"Why are they trying to murder me? Why are they trying to destroy me?". >> Yeah. And then you're mad at them because. you've given them so much power. Mhm. And and now you're irrational. You're. just in they don't care about me. How. come they don't see me? How come they. don't understand me? Mhm. And then you. have just that insecure, "What if. they're right? What if I'm terrible at. this?" And so, you're projecting all. these old wounds and needs onto a. creative relationship. But I didn't know. that because I was just a young person.

Yes. So, you know, when people would. give me notes that I didn't agree with, I really felt like, "Oh, you're trying. to destroy me." Yeah. And you know, to. learn how to have those conversations in. a healthy way. uh took a a long time for me. There was. literally a moment where I went, "Oh, I'm treating the head of the of the. of the network like it's my mom." Mhm. I'm mad at her in the same I I felt like. I'm mad at her in the same way I'm mad. at my mom when she's not there for me. Yeah. And I need to take that energy out. of this. Yeah. But it is a fight or.

flight response. "Oh, you don't like it? Well, if you don't like it, then I'm not. going to be able to eat and now I need. to fight you." Yeah. And and it's and. it's heated, right? And And so, you know, as you get older, you know, maybe your testosterone levels dropping. helps as well. You you you just go, "Oh, that's what that is." Yeah. >> Okay, take a breath. What are we really. talking about? What's their note? And. you may decide you completely disagree. and oh, maybe let's not do the project. together or maybe I'll take it to. someone else. >> Yes. But you can't be rational till you.

calm down and go, "Oh, everything I'm. filtering this through has nothing to do. with what we're doing." Mhm. That's such. a great note and I love the visual of. you saying, "I'm treating the network. exactly like my mom." And I'm thinking. about. just the moments in my life where my. reaction has been. totally based off of a trigger response. or trauma response. that now you're turning this scenario. into something that it totally isn't. >> Mhm. And it's coming from something in. the past and something you've. experienced and feels real, but this.

isn't that. >> Yeah, you're having a tantrum. Yeah. Like a kid. Yeah. It and and it's also. embarrassing to realize that you're. wired that way. Yeah. Right? Like, "Oh, man, I'm I'm So basic. Yeah, I mean, I. would just be so hurt, you know, when. Freaks and Geeks was. basically about to be canceled and they. would give me notes and the notes were. usually notes which would have made the. show not as good. Uh you know, it was like I was at war. Mhm. And. and my back went out. I had to have like. back surgery because I was putting.

myself under so much stress. I had made. it so important. And. the hard part is, you know, can I work. just as hard and not make it emotionally. important? Can you with creative tasks? That's a great question. Like, can you. because Freaks and Geeks was super. successful because. you pushed yourself to that limit. And. because we didn't give in. Correct. That's That That's the giving part so. important and so I'm like, have you found that you've been able to.

not give in but not emotionally carry. all that load and still create something. that successful? Is that even possible? Yeah. Yeah, you can. And and you realize. it like, "Oh, I didn't get emotional and we had a good. conversation and uh you know, it's it. but it's it takes a lot of years to see. it. >> Yeah. Because what it is it's a because. it's a trigger response, it happens. fast. Like your emotional reaction. So, do you have that extra 5 seconds to go, "Oh, I'm getting heated." You know. And. you still have those moments where you.

snap and then like years later you'll. wake up in the middle of the night, "Oh, I feel so bad about yelling at that. guy." You know, and it just happens out. of nowhere. And it's usually around the. idea of. are we about to ruin the work? For me. it's always about is the work going to. be good. It's never about like the. release or the success. It's always My. only thing that makes me crazy is. if I think someone can get me to ruin. it. >> Yes. That really kind of freaks me out. >> Yes. You know, and that's. not healthy the level to which it freaks.

me out. And I worked for people like. Garry Shandling who. were so sensitive. And they really felt like. you're trying to destroy me. >> Yeah. And I always thought, "Oh, I feel. so bad for them that that's how they. experience this.". And then I realized, "Oh, I do it. I'm. doing it in my own way. I have a. variation of of this this need for the. work to be good. And why? For who? Like. can I make it so people can enjoy it or. is it so I can make a living and people.

like me? Yeah. >> You know, can I separate the healthy. from the unhealthy? I always think about. Ram Dass talking about I guess it's part. of like the idea of like all dharmas. dreams that like you live your life and. then you also realize that life is. ridiculous. Mhm. And meaningless. >> Mhm. And so you still have to be in the. game and you still have to do your best. But can you hold at the same point like. this is all so silly? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. And And when I think. about that, I do better. Yes. >> But it's it's really hard because you're.

trying to care and not care. Like have. attachment and non-attachment at the. same time. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's like how do I. realize what I'm doing is valuable and. at the same time embrace my. insignificance. And And it's like. it sounds beautiful and it is possible, but I hear what you're saying. There's. there's a level of focus and due. diligence that's healthy and then it's. only as healthy when it's matched with. detachment. >> Yeah. As opposed to when it's so. addictive and we're we're we're going. through our first set of TV and film.

projects right now that I've ever done. in my life. And I have that same feeling. because I can everything you're saying. I'm like wow like I can so relate to it. because. up until this point also a lot of what. I've created has been fully like it's. never been funded by anyone else. We've. never worked with a studio or production. company. It's all us. And so I have a. lot of and as time has gone on I've. built more confidence and conviction in. my intuition that I'm aware of what I. believe will work and and what won't and. and I've sat with it for long enough and.

I've done this for 20 years and all the. rest of it. And then someone comes and. gives me a note then I'm like I know. that's not going to work. And then we. incorporate in the pilot. We make the. pilot and then the only feedback we get. from the audience and everyone is we. didn't like that bit and I'm like I told. you like I knew it. And so then what do. you do with that because it's such a. human experience of Well, it's always. picking your collaborators. Everything. in my career changed. uh you know when I started working with. uh Universal Studios and Donna Langley. because uh.

her and uh. the executives there Peter Cramer, Eric. Buyers, you know they they just got it. And so then most of that goes away Yeah. because you have a good relationship but. also they get what you do and they. understand your process. But I had a lot. of relationships with people you know. like with Freaks and Geeks where they. told me we don't like the show. It was. funny there was a documentary about. Freaks and Geeks and they interviewed. one of the executives who canceled it. And you thought in the doc he would. admit that he made a mistake but he. didn't. He was like kind of still proud.

of it. And so I think a big part of it is who. who should I collaborate with? How you. know part of it is. picking the person that you can have a. healthy discourse with. And that's. tricky cuz sometimes you don't know. everybody. Yeah. And you only by going. through it do you go oh I like that. person. Let I'm going to bring them the. next one." Or "I need to run away from. that person.". How did you get better at doing that and. making that process quicker? Is there. ever a way to get better at knowing that. earlier? Uh it it No. I mean, I think.

you just have to like meet them and then. treasure it. Yes. Yeah. And just go, "Oh, okay. I'm going to stay here.". Because I I and to value that because it. really is a special thing when it when. it works and people give good notes and. they they understand you and they're. excited for you and they they encourage. you. So, uh I I try to remember there are those. people and then go back to them as often. as they'll have me. Yeah. If If If fear. and doubt would disappear from your life. and mind tomorrow, what would you do. differently?

I don't know. I mean, what I would do. differently is is uh you know, just. probably be happier. I don't know so much about like work. >> answer. That's a great. >> like in life, I would like to have uh. lightened up. You know, a few years ago, I I was. just feeling terrible and then then in. my mind, I just heard. the phrase, "Lighten up.". Just And And I thought to myself, "Wow, you're in a comedy and you're so heavy. Like you just really need to lighten up. Why do Why do you look at everything in.

such um intense terms?" And But that. only works cuz you know, if I remind. myself of it, I can lighten up. But what. if I go like a year and go, "Oh, I. forgot to say lighten up Yeah. in the. last year. I forgot to You know, I'm I'm one of. those people like I will write all these. things down. Like. >> Like I'll have like a piece of paper and. you know, one of the things I I wrote. write down a lot is uh. uh just try to do better today. Mhm. Like just look at today. Mhm. Don't look. at the long arc of it. Like, okay, what. am I going to do today? Will it be fun? Can I make it fun? And at the end of the.

day go, "That was a good day." Yeah. And. if I think about the next year, I'm. usually in meltdown. Yeah, you reminded me of this uh. beautiful story where a student once. asked the Buddha, "What do you gain from. meditation? >> Mhm. And he says I didn't gain anything. And then the student says, "So then why. do you meditate?" And the Buddha says, "Well, I don't meditate because of what. I gain. I meditate because of what I. lose. I lose fear, I lose anxiety, I. lose insecurity, I lose envy and ego.". And and it's what you're saying. It's.

like, "Hey, if if there was no fear and. doubt anymore tomorrow, how would you. feel?" And you said, "Happy." That's a. beautiful answer actually because it's. it's not something that's blocked you. from taking action, but those are emotions that make living. and breathing a lot harder. >> Yeah, cuz your mind's just going. Like I. I like to meditate, but I just don't do. it enough. And every time I do it, I'm. thrilled after. I'm like, "That totally. worked. I feel better for the next 5. hours." And then I might go 11 days not. doing it again. And I don't And I always.

think, "What is the part of my brain. that's fighting doing it?" Because. clearly there's something resisting just. being present and quiet, and it doesn't. make any sense now cuz I like it. But. there's a little part that's like, "Don't do it.". You know, you know, I I guess some. people go, you know, "That's your ego, and your ego doesn't want to be. destroyed, so it's trying to figure out. a way. get you not doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Earlier, that's reminding me. of before we started taping, you said. something to me. You said, "It's. it's surprising of the things we're not.

addicted to.". And and then I asked you if you ever did. drugs. And my the reason for my question. was I feel like there are so many people. today who feel their creativity is. dependent on something recreational or. whatever it may be. Your life, as you explained it to me. before we started taping, was not like. that. You were scared away from drugs, and you can share that. >> Yeah. Well, my grandfather produced the. first Janis Joplin album, Big Brother. and the Holding Company. And so my. entire childhood, they always talked. about the fact that she was the best.

singer who ever lived, and she she took. drugs and died. In fact, that's that's why it's in. Freaks and Geeks when Joe Flaherty says, "What happened to Janis Joplin?" She's. dead, you know. Was because that was this mantra. And so. all of that really really scared me. And. then the few times I did it when I was. young, usually I would just get paranoid or I. never had like the great experiences. that would make me go, "Let's do more of. this." It was one moment where I did try. to buy some pot and my brother found out.

who's older than me and told the guy not. to sell it to me. But I always think. if my brother didn't tell that guy, "You. better not sell pot to my brother.". Maybe I would have found a you know, the. the part of me that loves it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I got a good long run of. that. I never loved drinking. I would. always get tired and fall asleep. I I. think it's just my chemistry. doesn't get that kick out of it where I. like I know people who who'll say, "Oh, I wrote that entire series you love. high." Yeah. And I'm like I I literally can't write.

one joke. Yeah. Like the second I'm high, I'm just like, let's just watch, you know, Great British Bake Off. You know, like. I'm not in creative. mode. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so but thank. God because that's just a random thing. because I think if I loved it it it. would have been a. a real problem. But I was very aware. that like that I wanted to succeed and I. thought that's not going to help me. Yeah. You know. Yeah. You've You've said. you read a lot of self-help books. I was. wondering if you had to pick three that. have really had an impact on your life.

and a lesson you've learned from each, what would they be? I mean, the three. that I go back to all the time. one is called The Untethered Soul. >> Mhm. uh by Michael Singer. >> Yeah, great book. And. I'm always going back to that book. although there's tons of YouTube videos. of him talking. They're all great. And. with anything really good, usually. they're saying the same thing just in a. different way. It's so it's one idea and. it's just kind of. rewritten to to find another way to get.

you to soak it in. And And his thing is. that. he feels like people have these energy. blocks. So, you know, something happens. to you, you know, like say someone punched in. the face at a party. And so, then you. think, "All right, I guess I'm the guy. who doesn't go to parties." And that by. the time you get older, you have a. hundred of these, or you have a thousand. of these. And everything that you do is. avoiding certain. things, certain types of people you. didn't get along with once. And so, he. he I guess he described it as like it's. like if you had a thorn, and instead of. pulling it out, you put it like a metal.

thing around it, and then you realize. you needed a bigger metal thing, and. then you would go to the party, and you. couldn't let anyone bump into it, as. opposed to just taking it out. >> Yeah. Uh and. to just like live with the pain of it, and and to let the energy, whatever that. experience was, move through your body, and and and see it. And I I find that to. really helpful. And And those books are. great. >> That's a great answer. The I always read. Pema Chödrön books, just all of them, when things.

>> Mhm. >> Start Where You Are. >> She's amazing. And I think she writes. better than almost anybody about. Buddhism. And she talks about uh tonglen. meditation. And I guess there's a lot of slogans. But. uh. the things she mentions is that um. she does a type of meditation where you. try to breathe in. someone else's problem, and then breathe.

So, you take it in, and then you try to. send out. like fresh, clean air. Like you breathe. in there like dirty muck, and take it on, and then give them. clear, fresh freshness, right? And. and then you might run. Okay, I'm going to do that for the. person I hate. Now, I'm going to do it. for. myself. I'll do it for my friends, and. I'll do it for all my enemies, and I'll. do it for everyone in the world. Mhm. And it that's a beautiful piece of. meditation that really changes your.

chemistry. when you do it. Because you're always. trying to fix help yourself. So, like a. pure giving meditation just changes. everything. >> Absolutely. Uh and then the third one. there these books by this guy named John. Welwood. Mhm. And they're relationship. books. They. they're just some of the best written. relationship books. But. he basically talks about how in your. relationships. they're meant to bring everything to the.

surface. And confront you with it. So, in your. relationship, in your marriage, it's all going to come up. >> Mhm. And you have to look at that as a. sacred thing that you both help each. other with what comes up. Mhm. And it's. not like I'm so mad at you for telling. me that I do this. Yeah. But really the. relationship is that we're in this. together and that these things are going. to keep bubbling up and can we figure. out, you know, how to address them and. address them in a positive way. There. was another guy named.

Harville Hendrix who had books about. this. Where it really was to embrace. it when it comes up. Mhm. And not be. annoyed. Like, you know, this is the. whole point of the relationship is that. you're going to tell me how annoying I. am. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, those are beautiful. recommendations and I hadn't heard of. the last Welwood. So, I'll have to go. and grab a couple of copies of that. But. no, no beautiful examples and beautiful. lessons. So, so deep and profound. When. did your fascination with that work. start? Like when did that begin with all.

of this reading and writing? I mean, it. sounds like you're a voracious reader on. the other side, too. Uh my you know, my. parents never talked about religion. ever. Mhm. Not positive, not negative. We didn't talk about it. And so, even. though, you know, they're very nice people with good. values, there wasn't a system. So, I think I really had a hole there an. existential dread from the idea that. there was no structure to the universe. or how I should think about the meaning. of life. And when I met Garry Shandling,

he would recommend these Buddhist books. to me like Feather on the Fan or Turning. Problems into Happiness. >> Yeah. Turning Problems into Happiness. had this. was based on the idea that anytime. anything bad happens, you're supposed to. be happy because it's giving you an an. opportunity to work on something. Oh, I. could work on patience or fortitude or. or something. I had never heard anything. like that in my whole life. That that. that's what you're supposed to do. Like, wait, problems are good? I'd never ever. had heard that. And um.

and so I became interested in those. those books and then. probably it's some of it is almost like. mental hoarding. Like I I would just buy. so many self-help books. And I think. sometimes it's hurt me because it's just. too much. And then I just drown in it. like, oh, I'm supposed to. not want anything, but I'm also supposed. to list what I want so I can manifest. it, you know? I'm supposed to be here now, but don't. live in the future, but I have to plan. for it. So, you know, like and I just.

start passing out. I love it. Me, too. I get that. It's. Yeah, you've got to be selective and and. focused on what you pick up. For I feel. like there's always been this I don't. know whether it's a myth or it feels. like something people have said for a. long time and therefore we feel it's. true. And I guess you're the right. person to ask, but. comedy is often or humor is often been. seen as hiding something or carrying a. certain weight behind it or pain behind. it or a coping mechanism. Is that true and what is it for you?

I I Over the years, what I realized is a. lot of times when I'm writing is I I'm. trying to figure. my own thinking out. Like, what am I. thinking about this? I'm just trying to. explore. myself, maybe a struggle, maybe a. question. So, I would you know, some people say you. know you write the movie to figure out. why you write the movie. And you're not even sure what you're. working on so you know in my career I've. been. the person who's worked on projects.

about high school and about college and. about getting somebody pregnant and. about maintaining a relationship and. about getting sick and about you know so. I feel like I hit these major life. turning points because I feel like I. really need to to work this through but. when I'm doing it I'm not conscious of. that. and then maybe later I'll go oh I must. have. been thinking about. these issues like friendship and the. value of your work when we were doing.

Funny People you know my mom had been. sick and I noticed that when she thought. she was going to get better she was. happier than when. when she thought she was going to die. when she had cancer she was always. happier than when she thought the. medicine was working and she was going. to get better all her neuroses would. come back but when she thought she had. no hope she kind of dropped everything. and became this very. much more serene. person. and so I thought oh so I started writing.

a movie you know it's an Adam Sandler. movie about him having an experience. like that but at the time I didn't. realize that's what I had done it took. like a while for me to. go oh this movie isn't about me and. comedy this is about my mom and and you. know what she went through. So you'd say that comedy heals pain not. hides it. Well it certainly is a road to. understanding yourself sometimes when. I'm working with a writer if I'm. overseeing a writer you know I'll say I.

feel like a lot of these movies are. about a problem usually an emotional. problem and then you think what would. have to happen to the character for them. to hit bottom enough to make a change. Mhm. Cuz in life usually you make a. change cuz something happens, usually. something that's not great. And so in a. movie. there's usually some sort of bottom. Even in the silliest movies, someone. crashes. And and then I always say, "And. what would health look like?" So if they. figured it out and at the end they were.

doing better, what would better look. like? Mhm. Mhm. I like that. And then I. guess do you ever feel after you've made. something that you feel better? Like when you when you do have that. reflection? Yeah. Yeah, sometimes you. know, at the end of it I have a good. feeling. You know, when I worked with. Pete Davidson on The King of Staten. Island, we we talked a lot about sacrifice. Because I was thinking, "Oh, I've never. worked on a movie. that's about being there for other. people." Most of the movies are about, you know, emotional situations and. people having meltdowns and fighting.

with other people and just trying to. make their lives work. I've never made a. movie about people who are willing to. risk their lives for other people. And I. think, you know, we all felt a great. responsibility to. to show, you know, the lives of first responders. and to be respectful and to show the. challenges of that for families. And so, you know, when it came out really well, I was I was especially proud of it cuz I. wanted to do right by all those people. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. That feels. like a really nice three like 360. Yeah, cuz we met all those, you know, the.

firefighters and a lot of them lost a. lot of people in 9/11 and you know, we. knew like how sacred this space was that. we were we were talking about. >> Yeah. Your movies have made people or. loved, made people happy, made people, you know, rem- have great memories. around them. Like, would you say are you. happy? Am I happy? That's a that's. that's that's the right question. Uh I mean, I think I'm always trying to. figure out how to be happy. And I think I I ebb and flow. I think I. have periods where I get like really.

lost and caught up in my head and in. things. And then every once in a while. like it clears up for a little while, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I feel good about. how everything is and what's going on.". I feel in between. tragedies. You know, like like, "Oh, this is a good period." But then. sometimes I just lose it. Like I lose. touch with. the thing that makes me feel. like I understand where I am in the. universe. You know, cuz sometimes, you. know, especially now as everyone's. talking about.

computers and everything changing and. the world is changing where we're like, "Is something happening right now?" I. can really get thrown and and. just obsess on it all day long. Like, "What's the point of all of this? Like, what are we doing?". You know, to just. like it's almost like feeling really. happy and loose. in my mind sometimes feels like I'm not. doing what I should be doing to make. something positive happen. >> Interesting. >> And that's not really fair on myself.

>> Yeah. Um. but it is the feeling like. I can't just be like, "Whee!" Because. like, look, have you seen what happens. today? Like, what are we supposed to do. about this?" And it's uh you know, like. a deep kind of. guilt that is again, some sort of. fight or flight response and and a. childhood thing, too. Like, you know, just. stay on top of things, you know, don't. don't let anything slip by you as a. survival strategy. So, like, actually.

being happy sometimes feels like a. violation of my survival strategy. Wow. >> a big thing to like, can I let go of. that? And sometimes I can, and then. sometimes I totally can't. Yeah, and. it's so interesting how. Thank you for going there because it. it's so interesting how those things. that make you successful and make you. organized and make you good great at. what you do, they everything comes as this. double-edged sword of stopping you from. having an experience. And then at the. same time, there's a beauty to how you. feel because it's It's that you feel a.

sense of responsibility and. >> Yeah. empathy and compassion because. those are all good things you want to. feel. At the same time, you don't want. it to steal your joy. And so, it's such. a Yeah, it's interesting living in that. in that landscape. And I as I was. listening to you, I was thinking that. I think happiness is never not. being lost. It's knowing that you've. been lost and found multiple times. And. so, that ebb and flow that you spoke. about, it's almost like knowing that oh, I've been lost before. Yeah.

>> And there's there's joy in that and. there's happiness in that and that this. is the the journey back and forth. Uh. but I love what you're saying about. needing a overarching structure and a. overarching almost belief. Have you Have. you ever discovered anything read. anything that that feels that way that. started to kind of scratch that itch or. Well, >> it something you seek? Well, kind of. like the meditation thing that you're. talking about, you know, this idea of. returning when you're lost, it is the experience of meditation like. you're you're trying to not think and.

then suddenly you realize oh, I've been. thinking for 12 minutes in my meditation. and you're not supposed to beat yourself. up about it. You're supposed to. celebrate that you realized to return to. your empty mind again. And that every. time you return, it's good. And even if. you only let's say in 20 minutes of. meditation, you were running stuff for. two giant hunks and you only got back. twice, that you should celebrate it as. the greatest success. >> Yeah. Um that is a way to look at all of.

life. Like, you know, like life is. suffering yet we soldier on. Right? And. it just it's it's a it's a mix and it's. always going to be a mix. It's always. going to be up or down up and down, but. um I've never really gotten the exact um. way to kind of keep returning to. something that feels good. But, I did do. ayahuasca a couple of years ago. And it was a really it was a wild. experience. And most of it was about. like trying to let go. So I really felt. like I was like not letting go. Not just.

being open. Like that's my issue and and. then at the end after this you know long. experience. uh you know. you're like. you're vomiting. You're you know you're. you're you know you're you've gone. through it. I don't recommend this to anyone by the. way cuz it's crazy. And I feel like I. don't know if it's safe for people. Uh you know so it's not anything you can. say to do. Yeah. But but the but the end. of it like I had this like image of. Jesus which is weird cuz I'm Jewish. And.

so it's not like the thing that I would. think of and suddenly I see Jesus on the. cross. at the end of this like 8-hour trip. And in my head I'm like oh I get what. that is. It's uh he's there for us and. we should be there for each other. Mhm. And the whole idea of it just like. landed with me. Mhm. And I thought oh I. guess that's it. It's just like being. there Mhm. for other people. And and that's the one thing that I try. to go back to. >> Wow that's beautiful. Where did you go. to do ayahuasca? Uh I did it in the.

state of California. Oh okay. Okay. I'm. pretty sure it's illegal. That's amazing. >> but it definitely was you know for me a. very meaningful. >> Yeah. Did you ever do it again? Oh no. that was it. Um I had done it one time. before but I got really scared and took. very little. Yeah. And which is a. mistake because if you take very little. you're not having the experience but the. shaman is because the shaman takes the. ayahuasca also. That's part of it. So. then suddenly like I'm not high and the.

shaman's singing to me for 8 hours. And. I'm not really even feeling anything. So. then you just got to watch someone dance. and sing with a drum. >> Yeah. And it. so then I went back again and then I. committed to. to doing the whole thing. >> Yeah. Wow. Wow. I mean that. I mean that's a pretty special. experience to see Jesus and to have that. as a take home. Yeah. That's that's. pretty powerful. >> Yeah. No it really was and I tried to. take it seriously and and and hold on to. it. And the funny thing was that after. ayahuasca. for about 6-8 months, I would wake up.

and it was. as if my mind had been working on. problems all night. And when I woke up. it was like telling me what it had. figured out. And so I would just like wake up to. these like messages. And so I'd be like. asleep and then I would get up and in my. head I would hear. "You're not doing any of the things that. you ask Leslie to do.". You know, things like that. You know, like you know, "Oh, you know, all that. matters is love." Or you know, whatever. it was, but like it was different every.

day. >> Wow. >> And it really felt like I was stepping. into a conversation, you know, that was. happening. Wow. >> And it it it then then it finally faded. >> And then you realized it was just Leslie. saying. Whispering in my ear. That's amazing. What You've been married. for 28 years. >> 27, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> 27. You've been married for 27 years. What's the secret to a 27-year marriage. that looks happy and fulfilling and. wonderful? Uh marry Leslie, man. That's. the that's the main thing. I mean, it's.

you know, it's a it's a lot of work and. you do realize that, you know, so much. of it is like the courage to be honest. about what's happening, what you're. feeling, what you're going through, and. you know, to really be there for each. other. But we really enjoy each other, you know, like we you know, we love each. other, but we're also I think kind of. engaged and amused and we're creative. together and we love our kids and I. think that we have a really, you know, nice relationship, you know, with them. But at the same time it's like the work. of, you know, what's coming up, you.

know, you know, what. what am I struggling with, you know, what how do we make life work, you know? Our kids moved out. and it's like, all right, what's life. now? And you're just in this very. beautiful. partnership to, you know, make the best. of this life. Yeah. How how is that. curiosity that musing, that amusement. stayed? Like what what is it being that. you've practiced to keep that alive? I think it's it's just her. Wow. I don't. think it you know I don't think it's. there's like work there. I you know I.

think like in life you can get. distracted and you can get kind of. pulled into things and and consumed and. off track, but it's really about kind of. getting centered and and present, which. you know is hard if you're a. hyper-vigilant person. Mhm. And you're. just worried about everything being. good, you know, to kind of clear it all. away and and be there. I mean that's. like the you know the work of a lifetime. to figure out how to clear it all away. and just be there. Yeah. Were there. moments where you felt you were moving. at different paces in careers, work,

life, family, and always had to find a. way to stay connected? I mean I think. like we we we always you know supported. what we were doing. in work creatively. I think that we. realized that. you know we're not always going to work. together, but when we do something. really special happens and we get to a. deep place and you know it's very like. funny and real and people feel it. But. we're talking about things that are that. are meaningful and she's so funny and. and creative and comes up with these. amazing ideas, so it's a real. collaboration when we decide to do that.

kind of work together. And then we're. always supportive on you know if I'm. doing a project, you know, she's. you know, watching cuts and giving me. notes. Like we try to just like help. each other, you know, do a good job. Yeah, yeah, she's she's fantastic. I. mean yeah, whenever you guys work. together I feel like you're spot-on it. is magic. And and that that must be just. such a bonus because there's. you obviously have this loving. relationship at home, you're having this. great relationship at work. >> Yeah. And to hear that it's. her and that there's not necessarily a.

work behind it Mhm. sounds I mean it. sounds wonderful. It's like. >> Yeah, I mean it's terrifying also. because you you put yourself out there. Yeah. And so you so so if you go, "Okay, we're going to make a movie as a. family.". >> Yeah. And the kids, too. Yeah. On some. level, it's crazy cuz it's like, "Well, if this goes bad, this is a worldwide. humiliation.". You know, so I would really feel the. pressure, you know, as the captain of it. to not make anyone, you know, look terrible or, you know, and but I.

also think it made it better because I. just I just cared at such a high level. They obviously cared and and and did an. amazing job, but. >> it did the opposite, yeah. It really. like focuses you and then you're having. kind of an amazing conversation about, "What do we want to say?" Yeah. You. know, about life, about relationships, about marriage, about kids. And so, you. know, for years we have common purpose. Mhm. And I think that was, you know, the. best part about it was really. all of us as a family moving towards the. same goal. Yeah, that's so special. I.

love seeing that. I know you were recently, you know, just. seeing your daughter. have have her moment, both of them have. their moments. It's like it must be so. fulfilling. What do you think was the. most important lesson you taught your. children when they were young that you. see them mirroring today? Leslie and I. tried to tell Iris and Maude that the. most important thing is uh. you know, to care about the work and be. passionate about it and to be. uh proud of what you're saying. in it and that all that matters. is that and that you shouldn't take any.

work just for your career. You. shouldn't, you know, try to figure out. how to get successful. That it'll it'll. always come because you have something. to say, something that that you want to. express, that you're that you feel good. about. Uh and and we talked a lot about. just having the courage to take the risk. because it is scary, you know, making. things. And you do have to. gird yourself for rejection and, you. know, careers which have highs and and. lows. And so, in a way, you know, you're. saying, you know, you can handle this.

Like, let's, you know, or or maybe you. don't want to do this, which we also. said to them many times. Like if this. isn't fun for you because it's it is. hard. It's hard on the people who have a. creative life because you know, you can. go through periods where you're like no. one understands me anymore. And then suddenly it's better again and. it's it's. it's like being an adrenaline junkie in. a way and you know, you don't want them. to experience it that way. You want them. to be proud of of what they're.

contributing. But it's hard to explain. that to kids. Like you know, it's all. about you making a contribution. They're. like what? Because it like took me decades to. realize like. everyone wants someone to walk up to me. and. tell me they like something that I did. or it made them laugh. It's easy to not. take that in but when you do and go, oh. that is the only reason I did it because. this person I bumped into has watched it. 11 times and it's the thing they turn to. that makes them happy. Like that's. actually the only reason to do it. That and to be able to eat.

How do how do you try and let people. down lightly when you're rejecting them? I imagine people are pitching you crazy. ideas all the time. What have you. learned? You've told told us about how. you deal with rejection. What about when you're rejecting other. people's ideas? I I think. you know, being direct with people and. also trying to be constructive with. people. You know, I remember working for. James Brooks on this cartoon The Critic. and when he would. listen to people's pitches for stories,

he always gave them a lot of time and. even when the idea was terrible, he. would kick it around from all these. angles to see if the room would find. something in it. Like maybe it would. lead to some other inspiration. And I. that that really had a big effect on me. because someone would pitch something. and I would think, this is the worst. idea. We'd go on to another idea and he would. go, but what if this and what if that? And and he never seemed annoyed. He. seemed fascinated by the thought and. like could it work if you did this? Does.

she have to be a that? And I think when. you do that to people even when you say. you know I don't want to make your movie. but you give them you know the time to. say here's why I'm not passionate about. it. Here's what's interesting about it. because the truth is you know I've. turned down things that. became big hits and and that's happened. to me. It doesn't mean I'm right. It. just means that I don't connect to it. >> Yes. You know someone else might. >> What was one of the ones that got away. that. um you may not have loved but went on to.

do something great. I don't know I can't. think of one off the top of my head. You. know usually. usually it's because I don't move fast. enough. Someone sent me a script and it took me. too many days to read it and then they. sold it to somebody else. Yeah. Yeah, that's uh yeah I but I like what you. said that it's not about. because it's not about whether it's. successful or not it's about whether. it's meaningful to you or not. Mhm. That. is such a great metric. Because if it becomes about what's. successful I mean there's going to be a. million things that are successful and. you're going to miss out on all of them.

because there's so many things that are. successful every year but. if it's meaningful to you you want to be. involved and I think that's such a great. lesson. I find when I speak to anyone. who's creative. you know. we had Rick Rubin in here and and it was. talking about music in that way when I'm. talking to you I'm like I feel like I'm. understanding comedy in in a different. way because. this isn't just it it's never been as. simple as oh yeah we're just trying to. just trying to make that person laugh. It's like there's there's so much more. there's just so much more deep intention.

behind what you're creating and how. you're doing it. Well I love Rick. Rubin's book. Yeah. Uh and. you know years ago Garry Shandling said. to me you should get to know Rick Rubin. Uh. he's like I think I I don't know I think. there'd be something there. Yeah. And so. I got to know Rick and he would show me. music and I put some music from the band. The Avett Brothers in This Is 40 that he. had played for me. And then one day he said they're about. to do a new record with me. You should. You might want to do a documentary or. something." I And and I thought,

"Well, I maybe I should do it because Gary. said, you know, Gary was my mentor and. and I'm going to follow that. I'm going. to follow that through as if it's like a. a message from Gary.". And then I we followed me my my friend. Michael Bonfiglio followed David. Brothers around for a couple of years. and made this movie called May It Last. about them making a record with Rick. Okay. >> And it was about two these two guys um. uh who uh.

who are just good guys. And it was a. funny thing is we were making this. documentary and we're like, "Where's the. drama?" Yeah. Cuz it's like two good. guys making music and working with Rick. Uh and um. and we realized, "Well, that's the point. of the movie. It's almost like a. meditation on creativity. And then like. some people aren't. Some people are kind of great." And we. thought, "Oh, that's kind of a beautiful. thing if we could figure out how to make. this like. uh you know, fascinating uh you know, about a band being good to each other.". Yeah. And so I I I always think about.

about Rick. That's so funny. I didn't. know that. I I loved what you said there. you talked about obviously Gary being. one of your mentors. How how important. have mentors been in your life? Gi-. gigantic. I mean, the entire the entire. thing. When I I look back I'm so. grateful, you know, that you know, I. bumped into Gary at a comedy club and he. asked me to write jokes for him for the. Grammys and then hired me at The Larry. Sanders Show. Then he asked me to co-run. it the last year. Then he asked me to. direct it. I never directed before. And. you know, so he was like a real angel.

who just believed in me and kept giving. me opportunities. And now I look back. and go, "Wow, those are giant. opportunities." I didn't know anything. He really taught me. And how do you explain those? How do you. make sense of that now when you reflect. on those huge moments that he gave you. when you were learning the ropes? I. mean, I remember like he you know, he. wanted to hang out when when I was young. and writing jokes for him and and um he. was living with Linda Dusat and and I. would go over there and like just eat. with them sometimes and just watch TV. and he was beginning to develop The.

Larry Sanders Show and he would show me. auditions and and and scripts and I. remember thinking, "Why is he doing. this?". You know, like like it was hard for me. to go, "Oh, he's just uh a good guy.". Like like this is so weird because he's. the he's like the most talented funny. guy in the world. And he likes having me. around and then I later in life I. thought, you know, he never had kids but I feel. like. that was like his way of doing it. It. was like through me. That it was a. uh like an experiment in in fatherhood.

And and I think that, you know, when he. was a kid, his brother died. uh when he was little. and his parents never really talked. about the brother and it was discouraged. uh that they just kind of moved on in a. very kind of early 1960s way. And it it really hurt Garry and it made. him. very sensitive in a lot of ways after. that. And I thought that.

he was nice to me in the way he wished. his parents were to him. That's what I thought he was doing. Wow, so in one sense you were able to. give him a gift, too. Yeah, like I think he was trying to. prove it was possible to be uh purely. giving. like that. Yeah. I never knew it at the. time. I just thought, "Oh, Garry's a. great friend. He's so he's so sweet.". But then later I other people would tell. me like, "Oh, Garry, you know, felt very. paternal with you." And I thought, "Oh, yeah." Cuz I I went through all my.

emails after he died from him. And every email. where I asked him for something, he said. yes. For like 10 years. I just like. scrolled through and I'm like, he said. yes every single time. And other people. would be like, "He says no to me to. everything." And I and and I just. started crying. I was I was like it was. just such a beautiful thing to scroll. through like someone just. consistently just being there. That's so beautiful. And asking for not. that much in return,

you know, other than to not screw up the. Larry Sanders Show. That's so special. What's beautiful is. you've done that for so many others, too, I feel. Like that seems to be. something you live on. Yeah, and it's. the fun part, too. I mean, it's. you know, I I like to do it I a lot of. it is from Gary, but also it's really. fun to work with somebody who is very. inspired and needs some help. understanding what they're doing, but. >> you know, they're doing something.

amazing and you can help them and you. go, "Oh, yeah, just I could give them. some of the wisdom that I learned over. the years and this person can actually. pull off. the thing that they're trying to do. Like they're good enough without me, but. I can make this way easier if I say, "Watch out for this. Watch out for. that.". >> Yeah. It's beautiful. Judd, it has been. amazing learning from you. I feel like. I've gained so much wisdom about whether. it's the comedy industry, whether it's. about resilience, whether it's about. breaking through barriers, believing in. yourself even when you don't,

all the way through to just how much. work that you've done. We end every On. Purpose interview with the final five. These questions have to be answered in. one sentence maximum. >> Well, though I break that rule often, so. well, we'll see how well we do, but Judd. Apatow, these are your final five. The. first question is, "What is the best. advice you've ever heard or received?". Don't live in here. Live in here. Ram Dass said that to me. when I interviewed him for his podcast. He goes, "Here bad, here good.".

Tell me about your interview with him. I. They asked me to interview him and. it was over Zoom and in the middle of it. Garry Shandling I invited Garry. Shandling to sit in and halfway through. he showed up, and the two of us were. just trying to make him laugh, saying. dumb jokes, you know. We were like, "Are. you mad at Eckhart Tolle because you're. like the the be here now guy, and he's. he's the now guy?" And like, you know, and he was just laughing, and um. but he also said, you know,

"I am loving awareness.". And you know, he said a lot of things. that were really reducible at that. anytime I think about them, you know, deeply. affect me. And the other thing I noticed. about it I I have a photograph of. of me and Garry. Uh you know, it's like. a still of our side of the zoom. And in. the in the photograph Garry looks purely. happy. Wow. And I thought, "I don't know. if I've ever seen Garry look happy and. serene like how he looked when he was. talking to Ram Dass." Oh, that's. beautiful. I love that.

Uh question number two, what is the. worst advice you've ever had or. received? >> Stop crying and I'll give you or I'll. give you a reason to cry. Is that Is that advice? >> to you? Yeah. That was like a parental. thing when I was a kid. >> Okay. Um but um. someone said to me, and they meant it in. the best possible way, but I probably. took it the wrong way. They said, you. know, when you're when you're doing your. TV pilot, and they give you notes, if the note is wrong, don't do it. because. if you screw up your show, they won't say, "You know what? Let's.

make your show anyway because I gave you. that bad note.". But I took it like. to really fight. Yeah. >> And I would just like refuse to take. certain notes out of self-protection. I. took it too seriously. >> Yeah. I didn't realize that there's a. real give and take, and you you have to. respect the people that you're working. with. And um. and and later on I realized like if the. people who are trying to help you, if. they think you think they're idiots, they'll try to destroy you. You know, that there's a lot of ego.

involved in this exchange, you know, for. people when they kind of take a risk to. tell you what they think of your thing. And that you have to be very respectful. to their uh you know their mindset and. their ego in the same way I'm so. sensitive. Mhm. Wow, that's that's. profound. Uh question number three, what makes a good friend? It's funny because I was talking to. David Milch, who's was is one of my. mentors, and um. he was talking about.

he had a friend when he was a kid. growing up, and he said, "We would just laugh so. much." They were like 12, and. they would crack up, and he said, "You. You know that way you behave with your. friends where you never ever have to. think about what you're going to say to. them cuz you just know they're going to. get it, you know they're okay with it, and so you're in this crazy joyful. flow.". He said and then he said, "That's what I.

think writing should feel like.". And that that's how I I think of your. friendship at at its best. >> Yeah. You know, it is that feeling of. total relaxation, confidence, hilarity, connection. Yeah, well said. I love. that. You have so many great friends in. the industry outside, and it's beautiful. to hear that, and that's I couldn't. agree more. It's I feel like I'm around. my best friends when I don't have to. filter anything. >> Yeah. And and we can hash it out if we. have to, but yeah, there's no filter.

Uh question number four, what's something that you used to value. that you don't value anymore? Well, I'm a hoarder. So, I've always saved everything. Yeah. Like I've really saved everything. >> tell by the book, the pictures, the. >> It's 570 pages of scanning of my like. childhood autographs, my. >> It's amazing. >> James Garner and Jack Klugman. autographs. Like Like I save things when. I was 10 like I was the Smithsonian. And you know, you know that thing where. like, "Oh, there's an article about you. in a magazine." And instead of getting.

one copy, you you get 20, and then you. put them in a box, and you can't throw. it out. Like, you literally can't throw. it out. And. when I put this book together, I thought, I need to let go. of this stuff because it's. it's mentally unhealthy. Uh. and also. if I could let go of it, I could. probably connect more to the spirit of. all of them. I I shouldn't need to, you. know, hold on to uh you know, some.

stuff. But, I'm glad you did. Yeah, so I. scanned it all and put it all in the. book. So, now I should throw out like. seven storage spaces worth of crap. But, you haven't yet. >> I haven't yet, but I'm really working. towards like not needing it anymore. That's great. I'm glad you didn't. I. thought it was remarkable. I mean, the amount of stuff you've saved and. scanned and shared in the book, it's. unbelievable. I wish I I've Yeah, I wish. everyone was able to tell their story. that visually. >> Yeah. Because that's what takes you back. to that time. It's It's It's so hard to.

do it through imagination, and you. saving all of this means we don't have. to, so. Well, I you know, I thought um. I want I want to go through all my. stuff. I scanned everything, and then I. had like 400,000 photos. So, I spent a. year laying the whole book out with no. writing. And then I took about 6 8 months, and I. tried to do the book uh. with a lot of like little essays and. captions so that it felt like I was. explaining the book to you. >> Yes. Yes. >> So, if you open any page, it's. >> Yes. me going, "Oh, let me tell you what. that is." And uh.

I I think it's a it's a fun read because. of that cuz you can open to any page. >> Totally. And I also have all the. projects that failed and explained what. they were and why they failed, and it's. not just uh success things. >> No, absolutely. No, I think that was the. best part about it. It's so real. Even. today, you've shared so many things that. I I feel uh are not the highlights. There There's so much. Uh fifth and. final question, we ask this to every. guest that's ever been on the show. If. you could create one law that everyone. in the world had to follow, what would. it be? The thing that it you know it's. such like a corny bumper sticker,

but but every time I hear it I think. well if people really live this. it would be meaningful which is uh. you know you don't know what anyone is. going through be kind. And I you know I. did this documentary about Mel Brooks. for HBO that's going to be on in January. and you know he's 99 years old so I said. you know what do you tell you know. you're like your your grandkids what. what. advice you take from. you know this you know century on earth. and he said be kind. And I I think that's it. Yeah, well.

said. Judd Apatow the book's called. Comedy Nerd we're going to put the link. in the description to go and grab your. copy. I want you all to. clip on TikTok and Instagram the pieces. that really resonated with you that. connected with you the stories that. you're going to remember and share. I. again I learned so many nuggets of. wisdom from Judd's today and Judd I'm so. grateful that you not only lived your. life shared it in this beautiful visual. way with all of us and I hope I get to. spend a lot more time with you because. this was too much fun so thank you so. much. So grateful to you and really.

appreciate it. All right, thank you. Take care. If this is the year that. you're trying to get creative, you're. trying to build more, I need you to. listen to this episode with Rick Rubin. on how to break into your most creative. self, how to use unconventional methods. that lead to success, and the secret to. genuinely loving what you do. If you're. trying to find your passion and your. lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one. for you. Just because I like it that. doesn't give it any value. Like as an.

artist if you like it that's all of the. value. That's the success comes when you. say I like this enough for other people. to see it.