SHAWN MENDES Reveals The Truth About His Two-Year Hiatus & Opens Up About His New Album

Simultaneously the hardest moments of my. life are coupled with the most beautiful. moments of my life every time. Yeah. It. actually became kind of like a joke. during this making of this album because. when I would walk into the studio and I. would you know, people would see on my. face immediately if I'm having anxiety. or panic and they would be like, "We're. going to write a good song today." We're. thrilled to announce that we've reached. 3 million subscribers. We're incredibly. grateful for each and every one of you. If you enjoyed this episode, so don't.

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science. World-renowned relationship. therapist and your favorite. manifestation expert is back to drop new. findings. Hit subscribe to not miss any. of these episodes. If you think of. someone who would love this episode, send it to them to make their day. The. number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the. only Jay Shetty. Let's dive straight into I actually want. you to share with people where we are. because this is not my studio. And we're.

in this beautiful place and I think. you're the best person to give us a. visual tour if you're if you're watching. and if you're listening then. Yeah, if you're listening we are in. we're sitting in the middle of a live. room in a studio called the Clubhouse in. upstate Rhinebeck, New York. If you're. watching you're seeing all the beautiful. candles and stuff. This is probably one. of my favorite places in the whole. world. This is the. room that. Oh man, I mean.

I've made all of my albums here, all of. my music, and I've had. some of the most magical moments. of my life in this room. Um. and so. I'm going to be probably a little. emotional just like even sitting in here. just cuz as I sit here and as we talk. it's just memories kind of circling. around. Um. Yeah, I've just like. time and uh. Yeah, it's it's a amazing studio. Yeah,

you can feel it. I I felt it when I. walked in and I can feel it right now. There's a there's a different energy in. here. So, I'm so grateful that you. allowed us to come in and. share this with the rest of the world. through this interview and it's. it's really beautiful actually being in. a space where an artist creates and. moves and. cries and breathes. Yeah. And I think it's rare. You don't really. get access to that. I think you go see. artists in a concert or in a public. space, but you don't really get this.

And I thought where I wanted to start. this interview was kind of roll back to. your announcement about tour and you. talk about this. In your song who I am you say, and I'm. going to be looking at my notes a lot. because I haven't yet learned all your. lyrics off by heart and I know the fans. are going to be really heartbroken. They're like, "Jay, how have you not done this yet?" But if. I if I'm on my phone I'm reading lyrics. back to you. So, in who I am it says it. broke my heart when I canceled tour. Had. my soul and my heart going back and. forth. Yeah.

And I wanted to read the message you. actually put up on Instagram at the time. because I remember it going out. We were talking about it. were talking the night before. Yeah. You. were actually the person I texted at. like 1:00 a.m. that night when I was. just in complete spin of of what to do. And I just remember feeling so much like. I think in those situations. it feels really hard. to ask people to give you advice or to.

give you an opinion because it's such a. big deal, you know, to do something like. that. And I remember assuming you were. going to reply something along the lines. of. you can do it, you know, you just you. know, you got it. Like we can do this, you know, we can figure out a way. And uh you were just like. in the most loving way, I can't remember. exactly something along the lines of. just like whatever you need, take care. of yourself, you know. And. I remember when I read that at my whole. body just like sunk into the bed and I. was like, oh god, like.

yeah, that was really important to me. So, thank you for that. But yeah, so. sorry, go on. No, yeah, no, no, no. I want to I'm so. glad that you remember that. I remember. you. telling me that, you know, on tour an. artist has to do something like or. someone like yourself has to do like 150. shows minimum. And I remember asking you. at what point do you feel like you can't. do another show? And you said around like 50. Yeah. And I was just like, what? I was like,

so wait, you have to do 100 And it was. so funny because I went on my world tour. last year. I only did 40 shows. Yeah. And I felt it around 33. Yeah. And I was like, wow, Shawn, what. has something to do with relative to. when the end is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but 50 is early. Like any race, you. know. And so anyway, you said there were there. were two times you posted about it, but. this one you said, "This breaks my heart. to have to say this, but unfortunately, I'm going to have to postpone the next 3. weeks of shows. I've been touring since I was 15, and to.

be honest, it's always been difficult to. be on the road away from friends and. family. After a few years off the road, I felt like I was ready to dive back in, but the decision was premature, and. unfortunately, the toll of the road and. the pressure has caught up to me, and. I've hit a breaking point. After. speaking with my team and health. professionals, I need to take some time. to heal and take care of myself and my. mental health first and foremost. As. soon as there are more updates, I. promise you I will let you know. Love. you guys.

Yeah. Walk me through how hard that time was. for you mentally, physically, even. before having to send that message, because I think when people see that. message, they think you've just decided. it. Yeah. But really, it's something you've. been holding. Yeah. for months, weeks, maybe even years. Yeah. And I think like the reality is. anyone who does anything at a high level. knows that it's hard. It's hard. Like. anything you want to do that's.

extraordinary is hard. So there are. going to be these moments where it feels. really hard and it feels like you can't. do it. And that, I think every athlete. or performer or anyone knows, you know, that there are these dips and these. peaks and that's just part of it. The. problem. is that for me. the hardest part about being in a state. of. I don't even know the right word to. describe it, but you could say, you. know, depression, you could say anxiety, you could say just general.

darkness or lowness. The hardest thing about that is. not the feeling that way, it's that. the feeling that way. makes you look at your life through that. lens and therefore all the love that's. around you and all the people who are. loving you and and supporting you, you. can't even see that love anymore. Uh and. so it's all just kind of getting. consumed by this feeling.

I mean, I've done I've done a lot of. tours and and that was, you know, and. I've been in hard places before and I. think the reality was that it would just. became really, really clear to me that. I needed to diversify in life, you know? And that since I was a kid, my entire. life had been about one thing. It had. been about performing and and making. music and just a constant kind of cycle. and it's and it. was amazing and.

but the reality is that. you know, I really do believe that all. your eggs in one basket is is a. dangerous way, you know? And uh I was. like I was the number one rooter of. like, I have no plan B. I don't have. plan B, you know? And I had nowhere to. go when things were getting hard, you. know? I I didn't have other aspects of. life that I felt connected to that I. could have like leaned into to have a. little bit of like a break from touring. and come back and just find that balance.

and. I knew there was only one way of doing. that and it was by step-by-step just. like creating a life, you know? And so. uh yeah, I mean, canceling that tour was. by far the hardest decision of my life. and. by far the greatest decision of my life. And. it gave me a life, you know? It really. it gave me time to. discover. so much about myself and yeah, I I'm.

smiling now because it's so far away and. but it it uh yeah, it did so much for. me, you know? Yeah. Who did you feel I know later on. you talk about in the same song this. idea of. I feel pressure from the people that I. love and it hurts. Yeah. But I know I got to do it. I got. to put me first. Like who do you feel. you were letting down at the time? Yourself and others? Yeah, I think the reality is it's not. just as as the artist, it's not just you. that sacrifices everything to do that.

You have a team of almost 100 people who. are away from their families for year, and they're everyday working there, not. sleeping, they're. sacrificing everything to put this show. on. That was one of the hardest pills to. swallow, you know, it was just like, oh. man, and like they are excited to like, you know, you got to be an insane person. to be a touring crew or anyone on tour.

You have to truly love it. You have to. understand that like this is profoundly. greater than you and what's happening is. magical. And so, and it was like not. letting people down and like we've. worked so hard. It was like, oh man, people were excited, you know, people. were proud of what they they created and. that was the hard part, yeah. Yeah, it. was like, I remember when we would talk. about it then, there was also this. weight around it where it was like. you'd had this growth period in your. life where as you said, you've been.

doing this since you were 15. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you were. kind of. getting the growth. opportunity to say, I get to make my own. decisions now. Yeah. And I remember like just learning. from you about that dynamic of. Yeah. young people who become successful and. famous and. Yeah. very, very early on, it's like you're. still a kid. And then all of a sudden. you're like, oh well, am I allowed to. make my own decisions? Am I allowed to. say I don't want to do something? Walk. me through a bit of that reflective. process because I think it's not an age.

thing. I think we all go through it. We. all go through this arc in our life. where we go I'm not going to be the one. to make the decisions now. Am I going to. take the responsibility? Yeah, and I. think. yeah, that's that's the hardest part is. is. it really comes down to the moment. you're prepared to take responsibility. for your life and for everything that. goes wrong and for everything that goes. right. And. it's a it's hard, you know, cuz your. whole life you You you have your parents.

to either rely on like, you know, you. look at them and they go, "Okay, yeah, well, they said." It's always kind of. like you can deflect that. uh responsibility onto someone else, whether it's my manager, someone. And uh. yeah, that was just like. this is going to be a a big decision I. make and then there's going to be. repercussions here and I'm going to have. to be responsible for it and. yeah, it uh that's it's kind of it's.

kind of just like that. And the. beautiful thing is that once I did that, it felt like now, okay, that was the. kind of big one and then every other. little decision, it was kind of like, well, here I here I am again making. another decision and. you kind of go like my. I'm sorry to bring my sister into this, but like for you, Aliyah, but like she. was like. oh, I don't want to she's like, can't I. just not have the responsibility? And. I'm like, that's not how it works. Like, once you start taking responsibility, you just got to keep taking.

responsibility and. it's uh simultaneously grueling, but. also so much more rewarding because when. it goes well, you know, it's you who put yourself in that. position, so Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even. know at that point what I felt like and. what I looked like to myself. What was it for you that kind of showed. you that North Star when things were. dark? When love is in front of you and. it's trying to give itself to you. through someone, that's a hard thing to. receive. I remember so many times I was. just like driving my car aimlessly.

and I would just be like, you're exactly. where you're supposed to be. You said. something beautiful just now. You said. it was the hardest decision and it was. the greatest decision. Yeah. Have you found those two things. often go together or. would you say that's not the case? Um I. find that simultaneously the hardest. moments of my life are coupled with the. most beautiful moments of my life every. time, yeah. It actually became kind of. like a a joke during this making of this.

album because. when I would walk into the studio and I. would you know, people would see on my. face immediately if I'm having anxiety. or panic. And they would be like, "We're going to. write a good song today." Like every. time it was like there was some sort of. healing crisis that had to happen. I had. to like get through this pain, this. fear, this anxiety, these tears, this. anger, something and on the other end of. that was just like plain truth and plain. truth had was just the best ingredients.

for a song, you know? So, yeah, I do. How does an artist ever find peace then? That's a great question. I think like I would be. following through and I do follow. through even if there's no song to. write, you know? I think we're so taught, especially in. so many societies and cultures, but like. I feel like in the West we're so taught. to just. there's a time and place for things. And. if you're in an interview and tears are.

about to come, if you're in an interview. and anger is about to happen, you can't. let that happen. And I really have noticed that like if. you can just like. express it in an honest, calm way, most. likely a more beautiful thing is going. to come through that than what you. desired, you know? I would do that if. there was no song that came out of it. That's kind of my my way of moving. through life. It's like I head to the. gym and I'm like, if I walk into the gym. today and. I'm crying in the gym, that's the better. outcome, you know? So.

You do live like that. I do, yeah. live like that. Yeah. And I And I haven't said it yet, but you know, this this album, it's it's. so. fascinating for me to see it from the. moment that we're talking about now to. then its creation because. I remember when it was you trying to. figure out your voice and figure out who. you are as an artist, as a person, as a. human, and now when I listen to it, it. almost sounds so effortless Yeah. and. true Yeah. and authentic.

Yeah. in this really flowing way, kind of like. this channeling experience of even. listening to it. And I couldn't believe. it when I listened to it because I was. like wow, like you did it. Like that. that's how I felt. Like I was like, you. did it and then some. Like it was even. it far superseded any of the. expectations I would have had in the. conversations we had of how you were. thinking about it. Well, yeah, and it's like, you know, you. have the idea of. if some if I said to you, you know, 6. months ago, I want to make the most. honest album I've ever made, then you.

start having ideas of what that sounds. like and what that looks like. And then. at some point, actually in the studio. at some point, when you're done with all. the ideas of what you you are trying to. force it to become, there's a breaking. point and you surrender to it and the. album starts to become what it's meant. to be. And you just have to like roll. with that, you know. Yeah, and that's. that's hard though. It's super hard. that? How do you trust that? Because I. feel like we're living in a.

Cuz we're living in this time where I. feel like everything's perfectly. engineered and manufactured and even. authenticity is. programmed Yeah. And then you're trying to say, well, no, I actually want to create something like. that, but then. how do I not engineer it? Something that. I learned on this process was just like. the foundation, like the first brick you. lay, if that brick is a brick of like. authentic truth, if you work really hard. to get to that place, and that first. brick you lay is truth, each brick after.

that will be much easier, you know? And. like I remember. it felt like as long as every word I say. comes out of my like. the writers I was working with, everyone. became so attuned to. me saying something, and if I was like, you know, saying it and then I was kind. of quincing after if I was saying it and. then it just didn't sound right coming. out my mouth, we would just be like, all. right, that's not it. Like we need it. needs to to have that, like you said, that natural flow.

And that. first break just like set a foundation. for truth to just be it. And now we're. at the point where anything. that really isn't in that space is so. obvious that we can't even put it next. to it, you know? And so it just really. if you start there, it's so much easier. to build. It's so much harder to start. in a kind of place of I want to be. perceived this way and then halfway. through that be like, I want this to.

feel like truth and cuz it's it's get it. get it itself gets confused, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I was saying this to Helena. the other day yesterday when we were. driving from Boston last night. And I was just saying that I'm at a. point in my life where I just want to. experience. Yeah. Like I I I don't want to think about. It's not that I don't I want to be It's. not that I want to be irresponsible and. not think about consequences or. repercussions. But there are certain experiences that I. want to open myself up to.

Yeah. regardless of how they're perceived or. how I may have perceived them in the. past. Yeah. Because that's the only way I'm. going to actually get to live. Exactly. If I'm constantly curating and perfectly. managing every part of my appearance, perception, reputation, whatever else it. may be. Environment. I don't actually. get to live or breathe or experience. And when I hear you talk, I feel like. that's something I definitely learned. from you because there's been this part. of you that's. just been so open to being all of.

yourself and not having to pick. Yeah. There was a one lyric where you. say in Y Y Y you say I stepped off the. stage with nothing left. All the lies. are. with my head. Yeah. Um effing with my head. Um. What What were the lies? What What. Oh, it's lights is the lyric. Oh, sorry. My. bad. Oh, my bad. There we go. I messed. up. you go. There we go. There we go. There. we go. I messed up. yeah. was lies. I heard lies. There's not I mean no lies. I mean maybe.

lies internally, but yeah. I think the. lights and metaphorically, I think it. was just more so. it had so much to do with perception. Just this constant um. just this constant focus on what I look. like and what I feel like to the world. And I needed to I stopped I didn't even. know at that point. what I felt like and what I looked like. to myself, you know? There was a real like stripping down. process that had to happen. And.

took me a long time, but. up into up until like I would say like. the creation of this album, I don't. remember the last time I felt so like. just. myself. Probably the last time was when I was. like 9 or 10, honestly. Yeah. What was it about 9 or 10 that felt so. true? Not having. the need to like cover the lay cover the. layers of of what I was feeling, you.

know? I was just like an expressing. ball, you know? Like. similarly to how I am I probably I. probably like more emotional today. similarly to how I was when I was 9, you. know? And. yeah, I guess just that. not having the. the the words and. the stories that you've been told, you. know, as you start to grow up spinning. in my head and just expressing truth of. who I am. And.

I'm lucky too, man. Like I know that a. lot of people they're not surrounded by. people who are maybe super. accepting or embracing of that truth and. I know that's hard and I think I have a. lot of compassion for that and the. reality is that. I wasn't around a lot of people who were. and I think part of starting to just. like strip back those layers is also. to just maneuver the people you're. around in your life and starting to be.

around people who you can be like that. with and it just becomes a kind of a. feedback loop of positive. honest reinforcement and then. you know you look around one day and. you're like oh all these people in this. room like really love. Shawn you know. Walk me through that discomfort because. I think it's easy to jump from like a. cancelled tour to I'm in the studio. making new music and we both know it. wasn't like that. Walk me through so one thing in the. discomfort you're saying is surrounding. yourself with people that.

allow you to be yourself allow you to be. and figure it out. What else were like. really important. kind of principles that guided you. through that no man's land through that. desert of time. What was it for you that. kind of showed you that north star when. things were dark? So many things like. you know I think the process of like. healing and and moving through a dense. moment in your life is not just sticking. to one thing it's really using.

everything at your fingertips and. whether that was therapy or whether that. was like friendship or it was reading or. it was music or what it was you know. it was just a mixture of all of it and I. think. the hardest thing. for me in my life. has. been this kind of um. wanting to. always have the perception of like.

strength and all together and kind of. grounded and still, you know? And. when I. started to like allow myself to really. I think it's like it really you got to. really feel pain to like let your ego. get out of the way when you when you. when I started to really allow myself to. like lean on. my family and my friends and also like.

just reach out to people and be like, you know, that was just such a huge part of it, you know? I didn't know at the time, but. just using using the people around me to. support me was was a huge huge part of. it and. yeah, not and being open to not knowing. how to get through it and just letting. people maybe help me how they can, you. know, and they might have their own way.

And uh. yeah, the people there's a song on the. album called heavy and it's just so much. of it is just about letting. people who love you help you, you know, it's a hard people talk a lot about it's. hard to give love it's it's hard to be. in that state, but man, like receiving. love like when love is in front of you. and it's trying to give itself to you. through someone, that's a hard thing to. receive. It's really hard, you know, a. lot of people including myself just like. want to freeze up and. so my new thing is kind of like instead.

of walking into a room when I'm feeling. bad uh holding it, the first thing I'll. do is just like literally like lean on. someone. Like physically like, "Hey, can. I can I have some love and I need it?". And that changes it like shifts so much, you know? Yeah, that's so powerful. Yeah. That's so powerful. Yeah. I love. that. And and I feel like I remember in. the in the beginning when we'd hang out, if you weren't feeling good, there'd be. a part of you be like, "I don't think I. want to hang with you." Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. switch of what you're. saying where it's like, "Oh no, no. matter how I feel, Yeah. I need to.

lean." And and I love that and That's. freeing. Like, if if I can only hang out. with you when I'm feeling still and at. peace and if coming from a very high. perspective, I am like I got 3% of the. time, you know? Like and I think even. for doing something like this podcast, I. mean we when we first met each other, I. used to be like, "Oh, I got to get to. this degree of you know, uh calm and an understanding of life.". And the reality is I don't have a deeper. understanding of life, I just have a.

deeper acceptance of self. And that. allows me to sit here and be like, "Hey, like. Here here it is. Here This is what we. got, you know?" And. that has changed everything to me. It. frees you from. so much, you know? You can kind of just. be like, "Hey, this is That's actually a. huge part of it." I used to before I. would get out of a car and go into a. social situation or before I would I. just would say like, "I'm as I'm moving as fast as I can. I. cannot be healing any quicker than this. I'm.

This is it. I'm here. So, let's just. let's be this, you know?". Yeah, and it trips us up. I feel like we. just. Yeah, we're we're trying to be something. we're not or trying to be something. we're not feeling. Yeah. We're trying to. feel something we don't genuinely feel. in the moment, whether it's us trying to. be more confident, trying to be more. calm, trying to be more whatever else it. may be, fill in the blank. Yeah. And it lets us down and. I wonder. Letting yourself down, too, you know? There's a part of you that you're just. like telling yourself you're telling.

that part of yourself like, "Ah, you're not good enough to be around. these people or to be in front of this. camera, you know?" What was the hardest. question you had to ask yourself during. this whole period? Like, what was the. question that you asked yourself the. most often. that you sought the answer for? It was just like general. direction. I remember so many times I. was just like driving my car. aimlessly.

And I would just be like literally I. think the verbatim words I said out of. my mouth were like, "You're exactly. where you're supposed to be. Like you're. exactly where you're meant to be. Like. this is. I know it might not look like what you. thought it was supposed to look like. It. might not feel like what you thought, but like. something about this. is. is it." And. there was just a lot of beautiful things. that happened in that time. Like I moved. to LA and I didn't really have a lot of. people around at that time. And I. remember I went to this coffee shop. every morning. And I got this I got a.

coffee. And as I was like sitting there. telling myself this, you know, I saw. this one guy. His name is Josh. He's. great human. And he's reading this book. I think it's called When Things Fall. Apart. He basically He was reading that. book for 2 years. Sitting on the coffee shop. And I went. up to him and said, "What's this book, you know?" He introduced me to another. friend and another friend. And by the. time after I knew it was like every day. there's three or four of us would sit. around having coffee. And it was like. just little group therapy sessions. And.

it just became the most the best thing. in the world to me. It was like 9:00. a.m. we're going to go talk it out. And. it was exactly where I was supposed to. be at that time. And it was so weird and. awkward and uncomfortable, but it man it. really. yeah, really that little thing changed. my life. It was funny cuz I I always. people would always tell me, "I just saw. Shawn hanging out at the coffee shop.". Like he's just like He was like yeah, yeah, he's like. he's like giving me the mayor of the. coffee shop. And it started to become like this this.

thing where everyone would like watch it. and be like, "What's going on here?". Brian called me one day and he said, "Hey man, Dion me um. he passed away in his sleep last night.". Years of like not processing it just. like all hit me. And it we sat there and. sobbed. It's strange because you kind of. bury it until you're ready to look at. it. Yeah. In relationships, it gets. oftentimes just like uh this feeling of. comfort, this feeling of I don't want to. be alone. And I feel like you you really.

took shelter in like building your men's. circle and your men's group and having. that ability to have, you know, a group. of men around you that you could be. honest with and open with. What What was. What was unique about that? Like why was. that such an interesting thing to build? Cuz I know you'd always talk to me about. that as well. This Yeah. group that you. were nourishing and cultivating. Yeah. And like I had a couple. I had, you know, I have I had this this kind of. coffee men's group and I had this other. beautiful men's group simultaneously. happening and I think. you know, I had just having like men.

from all ages, from all parts of the. world, who do all different things, like. really just show up and. strip it all back and. just be brave in front of you. I. remember like one someone something. someone something, I don't know, told me. like when someone is sharing something. hard with you, like. nine times out of 10, you don't have to. say anything back cuz the most. healing part about that experience is.

just to be witnessed in your pain. And I think it's just that. It's like to. be witnessed in your pain and for the. person in front of you not to be like. I don't want this. It's just for them. to, you know, when you open your eyes. and you're the pain is over and you look. up and they're still there like Hey man. Still here, you know. That's beyond, you. know. So. in simple ways. Like that's that's been. a huge part of it. Yeah. And I like that you were playing. that role while you were receiving that.

Yeah. there's something really interesting. about that. Well, it's empowering. You're. simultaneously being vulnerable and then. also listening to other people go. through their stories and you're. empowered to to be strong and hold for. them and it's just a beautiful process, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think a lot of us. feel like when I get there I'll be. strong enough. be strong enough to hold space for. others and it's almost like this. simultaneous mutual holding. Yeah. is is what we all need and you're. actually only going to be better at. holding others if you allow yourself to.

be held. Yeah. And if you practice holding others. even when you have nothing to hold them. with. Exactly. And that balance is what creates. that structure, that foundation that. you're resting on. Yeah, the roots. Yeah. Yeah, you were. talking about this. you're talking about heavy. and in the song you say it's been so. heavy, it's been so long running from. everything and nothing at all. Yeah. I was thinking about that a lot. I. was like so often. we think things are so heavy and there's. so much going on and then at the same. time you're like, but it's not. Yeah. there. Walk me through that.

dilemma because. a constant dilemma. It's like in uh. in reality there is a lot going on and. then also in reality. it's okay often times too, you know. It's that internal perspective that. you're going through and I felt like. yeah, just running when you have the. money and the ability to be on the. constant move and run, I just ran and I.

was just never still. and. it was like. I couldn't figure out how to get away. from the feeling that was that was. feeling so bad and. at some point I was just like, okay. You know, a friend of mine was like, "Hey man, wherever you go, there you. are." And at that point I was just like, "Okay, I got to let it kind of hit me, you know?" And. yeah, that that was just a big part of.

it is just like I said, the realization. that like when you you of move all of. the stuff out of the way, it just kind. of kind of the it just drops into the. truth. It's really hard to get to that place. when all of the noise gets out of the. way. It's very hard to get to that. state, but but sometimes when you do. it allows you to look around and be. like, "Okay, actually it's okay, you. know.". Were you running away from. fame? Was it Was it the What was it?

What did you feel you were running away. from? Did you Was there a point where. you were like, "I don't want to be. famous. Like I don't want to have the. platform?". Absolutely, and I think just like. more of like what I felt like the fame. was doing to my mind, and I was I was. letting it do to my mind, and it all was. based around. perception and. just all I wanted to feel was. comfortable in my own body, you know, and like not crawling in my skin.

From like. every word that would come out of my. mouth to the way I would sit in a chair. Everything, you know, and I think. it just takes time because the reality. is that if you spend your life around. cameras and around social media and. around people who are constantly talking. about the way you look, the way you. sound, the way you act in a way that has. more to do with a performance and. perception, then that is what you're. going to be focused on. And you really if you're stuck in that.

spinning, you need to put yourself. around people who are like. doing the that, who are like not worried. about how you're acting, not worried. about what you're saying, not worried. about how you're sitting, um and just existing, you know? And I. had to. just reconnect. with that, and that's that's why I named. the album Shawn, too. Like and you know, I just felt like. yeah, just that that process of. stripping just took so long, and a lot.

of it is just like I think a lot of it. is is. this idea of who I wanted to be in this. world, you know, this like. this image of perfection and. I just like even right now I'm just. like, oh man, like thank God for. everything because I'm sitting here and. I really am not having tons of intrusive. thoughts about like is how are you. saying the right thing? Are you doing. the right thing? It just it is is, you know, and.

I'm just grateful for that. It's a nice. feeling. I just got to like check on. that for a second, I'm glad you're feeling that way. That's. what I was saying when I when I was. doing the intro. I mean, I felt that way. because we always talk about these. things anyway. It's even strange having all this stuff. here. And this is and and it was funny. because I was noticing something that. was happening in our conversation. I'd. be halfway through a thought and you'd. lead on it. You wouldn't even let me ask. the question. No, and I was like, but that's what we. would do. Like we would never we would. never have perfect pauses and cadence. and And and I was liking that. Like I.

was appreciating that. I was. I was noticing it going, oh this is. really nice. Like I'm I'm not even. finished my thought and and Shawn. already knows what I'm about to say. And. I was like that I'm glad that we're. doing that and that, you know, when we. started this like my. you know, it was like I was like, yeah, I don't want this this doesn't need to. be a performance because there is. because it it's real. There doesn't need. to be that. So, I'm keep doing it is. what I'm saying. And I'm happy that you're feeling. there's no intrusive thoughts. I mean, you know, I think that constant. filtering that we always live in is. exhausting.

It's exhausting, man. I remember like you told me about some. of the pressures back then that came. from different sources of like, oh, if. you want to be the biggest artist, then. you have to do this. And if you don't do. this now, then you won't be as big as. so-and-so, whatever. Like, you know, and. it's like and and I was thinking about. that. And you know, when I met you, you. were whatever, like 22 years old or. something. And it's like. you're like, gosh, like hearing that as. a 22-year-old. And then you hear about. like, you know, TikTokers who are taking. off and they're hearing about it 18. years old or 16-years old and you. probably heard it. Yeah.

When you started at 15, like that can. really push someone into only caring. about those things. course. What What did that stripping away look. like? Where like. we always talk about this. Like you look. great, you're dressing well, like you. know, the hair looks good. Like how have. you got to a point where like you can. care and then still be detached? part of it. Actually, honestly, I I can. my tendency is to be very extreme and a. lot of what I work on in therapy is just. finding this middle ground is to not be. in these black and white binaries, you. know? And I often times like I went from.

like, you know, wanting to look like the. image of perfection to like, I'm just. going to go be a man in the woods and. like I don't care what I look like, I. don't care what you think. And there's a. good period, I'm sure, of paparazzi. photos where I people could tell, you. know? And We'll We'll find them and we'll. share. Yeah. And I think like it took me a long. time to also come back around to just. like caring about how you look and. caring about. uh that type of stuff. There's nothing.

wrong with that, you know? It's actually. a beautiful thing. It's just when you. start to be completely consumed by it. And so I started to find a middle ground. again where I was like, "Okay, you know. what? You can care. Just like don't kill. yourself caring, you know?" And. yeah, it just uh yeah, the extremes, they don't work for me anymore. I don't think they work for any of us. No. No, no. They don't, man. They don't. The second you can start allowing room. for complete like.

paradox to exist in your life and like. two things to exist like the number one. thing I say in therapy is. "Yeah, I know I'm feeling this and I'm. also feeling this at the same time and. that's okay.". And that's just like. it's just creating more space all the. time, you know? Mhm. You have this song Heart of Gold. This. was This was something that stood out to. me. You say, "I'm sorry that I wasn't there. to hug your mama at the funeral.".

Yeah. "I didn't cry. I didn't even feel. the pain. Then it hit me all at once. when we talked about it yesterday.". Yeah. Walk me through who that was and. Uh-huh. what happened there. Um. when I was young, when I was like 12, 13, um I had a friend. His name was Deomi. My friend Brian, you know Brian. Mhm. Him and I and Deomi were just great. friends and we uh we spent a lot of time. together and.

he was awesome, dude. He was a lot like. me. He was like a very sensitive dude. and just like I really, really connected. with him and. when I was 15, obviously I got signed, started making music and. you know, went off and started touring. and then him and Deomi and I just kind. of uh started to. disconnect and. yeah, I don't know exactly how old I. was, but I think I was about, you know, I was like probably like 15, 16, 17 and. Brian, you know, would would call me and.

say like, "Hey, uh. he would say, uh you know, Deomi's. gotten into drugs and stuff and. just thinking about his mom, his mom's. name is Gail and. you know, hoping that she sees. the beauty in the story of talking about. him and I hope it's okay, but. you know, when I was like 18, around 18, Brian called me one day and he said, "Hey, man, Deomi, um he passed away in. his sleep last night.".

And uh. yeah, he overdosed. He. And I remember when I heard it, Brian. was on the phone crying and I was just. kind of like somewhere on tour and. uh. Um. I just like felt numb. Like I didn't. really feel anything, you know? And just. like. hung up and. I just kind of went on with everything. and time just went on. And.

sitting in the studio. about, you know, 3 months ago and I keep. hearing this kind of. title, it's heart of gold. And I'm like. ask myself, like what is this song. about? What's this song about? And uh. Scott, who I make a lot of music with, he looks over at me and he goes, "Didn't. you have a friend uh who passed away. from an overdose?" The second he said. that. Brian was in the room. Brian goes, "Talking about Deonna?".

And uh. yeah, the second he said Deonna's name, it's just like hit me. Like years of. like not processing it, just like all. hit me. And we sat there and sobbed. And um. yeah, the song, man, it was a hard song. to write and it just felt like a letter. It felt like a letter to my friend that. I never got to. the things I never got to say to him and. you know, I imagine that like.

when you die of an overdose. especially as someone as sweet and kind. and loving as him, like. you kind of wake up wherever you wake up. and there potentially is this moment of. like, what happened? You know? Not that he needs it, but it just felt. like a good opportunity to just be like, "Hey, man, we love you and you had a. heart of gold and. and we're here down here thinking about. you and. uh. yeah, it's one of my favorite songs to.

play, man. It It just is. uh. it's just this beautiful golden light. and he is just like this super swaggy. dude and it's just like in it it holds. his energy. and it's just like every time we play. it, I just imagine this huge golden. light beaming up from the place we're. in, wherever he is, just reaching him. and. uh. yeah, I I. I love that song. You want to play it a. little? I can play I can play it for you on the.

on the on the song on the phone after. But yeah, man. know. I love that song as well. I was I. was intrigued cuz that wasn't something. I was aware of. Yeah, it's funny, man. Like how. these things are when you're open to. the truth and what wants to come out of. you and what wants to be uh made. Y- yeah, it it uh. it's unexpected and it was extremely. healing. It's still very healing to just. like sing that song out to him every. every time I play it now. Have you.

played it for his family? I haven't, actually. I'm I have to go back to. Pickering and and play it for his mom. Yeah. Yeah. How do you think she'll react? Yeah. I don't know. I I think she'll. love it. She's an amazing human being. I. always had an amazing. connection with her and. so I could see her just like she's just. a badass, just totally rocking to it and. loving it and. yeah, special family, special human. Yeah. It's nice to immortalize it in a song.

and. It is. immortalize him, yeah. Yeah, it is. It. is. Really, really nice. I've never wrote. about death in that way before, so. yeah. Was it Was it a process of. forgiving yourself for not having. Yeah, yeah, what can you say? Yeah, that was a lot of it. A lot of it. was the guilt for not reaching out or. the guilt for not being there for him or. even more so just the guilt for not. being at his funeral and and seeing his. mom and all this stuff and.

but music has this funny way of. healing in a way that other things. can't, you know, so. Yeah, can't wait to play for his mom, honestly. Mhm. I can't wait as well. I. can't wait for you to tell me how that. goes. Yeah, I will. Can imagine it just. being like this. Yeah. Really special moment, and I. think, you know, it's it's so human that. Oof, like, you know, there's there's so. many things we. we go through that. we're not ready to process something.

yet. Yeah. And then we feel guilty that we. weren't ready when. we almost. to be, yeah. But then you realize that. actually when you were ready to process. it, something more beautiful came from. it for everyone. I think I I think I spoke to you about. him, but one of my monk friends passed. away from cancer. My closest friend. during my time in the monastery. passed away a couple of years back. He. was he was uh maybe a year older than. me. He had colon cancer. And I couldn't go back to see him. because it was the pandemic when it.

happened. Um. and. I couldn't fly back. I couldn't be by. his side. I couldn't be there with him. And in the last few. weeks to months of his experience of it, he wasn't even in a place to do like. phone calls or, you know, and I spoke to. him 3 days before he passed away on the. phone, and he was like crouched over cuz. he was in so much pain physically, and. so I couldn't even. look at him, and. yeah, I always carried that as I.

I wasn't there by his side. I should. have been. I could have been. And it's. it's been something that when I was. listening to it and I heard that, that's. what I was thinking about. Yeah. It's strange because you kind of. bury it until you're ready to look at. it. Yeah. And sometimes you don't even know. if you're ready to look at it yet, like. at what part of it. And it's I'm I I. agree with you. I think music's the only. thing that can get in there. Get into that complexity of it. Yeah, it's grieving is just a complex. thing. Probably lasts a lifetime, you. know. It's beautiful that it came to you.

in that moment and that you were able to. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you related to it, man. Yeah, no, I mean I relate to it in so. many ways. I mean even even grieving. like I think grief also we talk about. obviously this is talking about the loss. of a of a friend and and mine, too, but. I think grieving's also like. I was at my sister's wedding last year. and my sister's one of my favorite. people on the planet, one of my best. friend. She knows everything about me. She's four and a half years younger than. me. Nice. We have similar sister vibes, yeah. Same with mine.

Yeah. She's just like I love her to bits. and she's like she's like my little. brother actually. That's how. unfortunately she's been treated by me. Uh but you know, I was at her wedding. last year and I left the UK I left. London eight years ago now. And. we've kept in touch and we've kept our. relationship like we're as tight as. ever. So it hasn't been affected, but it. was really funny because I was at her. wedding. and I was just like sobbing the whole. time. And I have to show you a bit Can I show. it to you? I wasn't even planning on. doing this, but now that I remember I.

think I just showed it to my team the. other day cuz my sister was just with me. and she. I don't I don't even have it on hand. Photos of me crying at my sister's. wedding will be. to show you. It was just Wait, sorry. I wasn't. prepared for this. That's why it's. genuinely in the moment. I'm trying to. make sure that I have it. Oh, man. It's so good. And then and then zoom out to see. Roddy's reaction. Oh, man. It's really.

good. I've never seen your face look. like that. Oh, man. That is so good. That is an. unreal photo. There's so much happening. on your face. There is a whole story on. your face. zoom out? Yeah, I saw Roddy zoom Roddy's like. taking a picture. Roddy's like taking a picture. And so. and then I made her cry and that was. her. Oh, yeah. Good. But it was. But But the what I'm getting to is this. idea of like I was at my sister's.

wedding thinking it was going to be. completely normal. Yeah. And it wasn't because I started to. realize that when I left London, I had. to switch off. Even though I was connected with her and. I loved her and we talked all the time, there was a part of my emotional. connection to my family, yes, that I had. to turn off because. if I thought about it every day in New. York and then LA. Yeah, you couldn't do it. I couldn't do. it because. I didn't have any family and friends in. New York and LA and I didn't I didn't.

know how my life was going to go and I. didn't know what I was going to do and I. was like, "If I stay too connected. emotionally, I'm going to have to run. back." And then I remember I went back. to my house, my parents' home where me. and my sister grew up and it was the. first time she wasn't there. And I I last Christmas, like I felt like. I was. alone. Fully alone, like for the And it. was so strange because I was like, "What. is going on?" And and it was all these. feelings I denied or put away or hidden. from myself because it was too. uncomfortable to go there and they all.

just came up with my sister leaving and. getting married and all the rest of it. And so, I think grieving also. is also the loss of a former life, the. loss of a a former self, the loss of. There's so much to it that I think you. bring up in that song that at least it. got me thinking about. Yeah. Yeah. Grief is a really, really complex, interesting thing. But, yeah. That's beautiful, man. I love that photo. so much. I'll send it to you after. I'll send it to you afterwards. That's. so good.

I wanted to talk to you a bit about, you. know, and and I hope you don't mind. we're doing an album tour because I. think it's the To me, I always get happy. when I can. you know, your music's so healing for me. and. I know it's going to be so healing for. people. Actually, actually talk to me. about that because you had 15 fans in. here last night and that was was first. time you played this album to them. I. wasn't here for that. So, I want to hear. about. Oh, man. that like? really special. It was just like so.

I was It was my first time really. telling the story of all the songs, you. know? And uh. it was just a sobbing fest. Everyone was. sobbing and everyone was crying and um. it's just another reminder that like. greatness is not. one person. It really is just so many. things happening and aligning to make. something special, you know? It's like. the end of the night, like when I look. around, I'm like, all the candles are. lit and like all the all the people in.

the room, the fans in there, like the. friends who've come, like our friends. who are amazing chefs who've come and. made this amazing meal for them and like. there's flowers around, like you know, I. didn't do any of this and my band, like. there are all these humans who are so. amazing who come together. to make something special happen. And when you like make room for that and. give space for that collective effort to. be felt, oh, it was just like and on top of that,

just like the album itself, we put so. much effort into just the stories and. the truth of it that. I felt like my job was so easy. I All I. had to do was. represent the song. All I had to do was. speak the truth of what we wrote about. and and perform it that way and and move. on. Like there there was The Greatest. Show Ever was already wrote before we. started and I just had to step into it, you know? And and I think that's such a. I think that's such a representation.

also just of like for me, like as a. performer, like I have had a really hard. time, you know, when A, I. am carrying the weight of everything on. my shoulders, when I'm the one when I'm. telling myself it. this being fantastic all relies all. comes down to me. If I'm not fantastic, it all doesn't matter. Which is not true at all. And the more I. take that weight off of me, the more. fantastic it becomes. And B, when.

the art I've chosen to create comes from. such a truthful place, the show you play. is so much easier. It just like it supports you. It feels. like you just have the lift of of of the. truth, you know? And. and you can't rush that stuff at the end. of the day. You cannot rush. art and music. And you have to really. allow it. And the fans last night, they. were like, "Hey, you know, at the end of. the show they're like, "Hey, like if. this is the type of music you come back. with, take as much time as you need.".

And so it was so sweet. That's beautiful. Yeah, it was so special for me. Yeah, I. feel like when I'm listening to this. album, it feels like. I'm I'm listening to a friend talk to me. about what they've been going through. Yeah. That we're catching up on a call. Good. And I'm listening to a friend just. hearing about. what's going on in their life and how. they're thinking about it. Good. That's that's perfect then. And that's how And And I feel like. that's. it's so beautiful and it's obviously so. hard to do because.

you're doing it at, you know, everyone's feeling that way. And so. that's not easy. Yeah. And continuing. our tour of the album, you talk about. you know, love and relationships, which. is and romantic relationship, which is. such a big part of your own. journey. And we've talked about this and. So much, yeah. it's such a. it's such a sensitive part of our. hearts. Like such a like it's almost. like society's also made it. More Yeah. more sensitive. Like on such a pedestal.

as I often talk about recently. I was just saying this to someone the. other day who's going through something. and I was saying that. they've always overvalued and. overweighted romantic love. Instead of just general love. the general love. And you know, in your. song. in between Mhm. you would say, if I'm. not all in, then I'm all out. Mhm. And it's never going to happen if. it doesn't happen right now. Mhm. If it doesn't end with a ring, is.

it just sex? If it isn't black and white, then it's. on to the next. Mhm. I mean, can't think of how many people can. relate to that. experience. Yeah. And how many people when they hear. that are going to think, that's my life, that's me. Yeah. Walk me. through. what you're experiencing, what you're. going through when you're writing that. Yeah, for me, I'm definitely one of. those people who has over. put way too much weight on the romantic.

part of love. Doing that has done many. things. It's suffocated love. It has. closed the door to any other kind of. love that I could be receiving. I guess there comes a point where there. came a point over the last couple years. I was just like I realized life is hard. Like. there this thing is too long and too. hard to like not just not just be open. to the love that's in front of you. asking to be received right now, you. know, and.

that was kind of what I was writing. about there is. isn't it enough just to have someone. share a moment with you of love and. it's hard at first cuz it's like it's. really vulnerable to like allow that. because all the things come in is like. is this romantic? Is this this? And is. is this going to be forever? Is this. going to What does this mean, you know? Is this weird because you're you're with. someone and we're having a beautiful. connection. What does that mean? Is this. bad? Is this wrong? And all of that can.

exist at the same time and it's okay. And when you start making more space for. all that complexity to exist, like you. start to realize, wow, there's a lot of. opportunity for me to feel love every. day. And I have noticed that my fixation. on romantic love has dwindled, and I've. just been so much more, you know, I guess generally feeling that empty.

space of love fill up. And that's just. because I think I'm more willing to. receive it from more places, you know? And uh. it's tough, too, cuz. we have been watching Disney since we. were kids, and so we're like, where is. my forever, you know? And even in the. song, like, you know, I have another. song in there where I'm like, you're the. one and I live for this moment. It's. like I. that like. tickles a part of us. And we like love to hear that, and, you. know, till the end of life, I'll I'll be.

a hopeless romantic like that. But like, yeah, but part of me also has to just. know that yeah, love can just it can. really be there. You can you can. experience it, and if you just wait your. whole life for one person to give it to. you, you might be let down. And also, you might just that person might just be. so might be so impossible for them to. feel that for you, you know? So, yeah, I'm open to love. That's what I'm saying.

What what's it been like for you having. your romantic life be so public? And. then when it when you break up, it's. public. And then if there's a potential. reconnection, it's public. And then I. feel like. that is kind of. I mean, for anyone I've ever. interviewed, for anyone I've ever known, that that seems to be one of the hardest. things, because it's brutal for both. people, fans, audiences, people in. people's private life. Like, walk me. through what that's been like, and maybe.

where certain songs felt connected to. that experience. Brutal. It's. I mean. Honestly. I think Camila and I have just done the. best job at preserving our. private. little fire of love for each other. because. no matter how strong mentally you are. when there are millions of people. commenting on it it's so hard not to be.

affected by it and to be swayed by it. and to be inspired by it and to desire. because people desire it or to hate it. cuz people hate it and it's just human. And. I feel like her and I have just like. worked extremely hard to just protect. each other and protect that love, you. know, and. I learned a lot about that. And. it's part of it. It's definitely part of. it and there's no getting away from. that, but.

if I'm being completely honest, I I. don't really I don't really go on social. media anymore. So I. I don't really. see or care what people say about. my love life or or my relationships. because it's just. it's it's honestly too detrimental to. the actual relationship itself that I. I've become pretty strict on on that. part of it, you know. But it is it's. crazy, man. It's it we're not we're not. in a movie. This is not a movie. Celebrities are.

you know, sometimes maybe they think. they are and sometimes they literally. are, but like it isn't a movie. This is. real life. This is real love and love is. confusing and hard and goes through dips. and. goes through pauses, goes through. breaks, goes through so much and so um. yeah, I'm I really feel for everyone who. goes through that, you know. I I just. feel like as a celebrity I just want to. just come at it and be really truthful. from the place of.

this is what love is like for me, you. know. What have What have you both done and. maybe obviously speaking for yourself, but. what have you done to protect the. relationship. in apart from distancing yourself from. the noise? Yeah. What else has been. useful in protecting. it whatever a relationship may be in any. phase? For me and for us, I think immense. honesty. Just like. over communication, you know? Like I. felt this way when I was doing this.

interview and I said this thing and I. felt weird and I'm sorry if it came off. like that and you know, I I love you and. that's my you know, it it just. immediately cuts through any type of. assumption that I could make or she she. could make from anything and. you know, we're both amazing at that. I'll be the first to text her, she'll be. the first to text me and we just as long. as we're good, all the noise is just. noise and. that's been a huge part of it. Yeah, so. rather than be like, "Oh, I hope they. don't see that or. I hope they don't.

It's like, "Oh, I'm just going to tell. them what I was why why I was feeling. that way.". Yeah, yeah. And then how do you open. yourself up to receive that honesty when. it isn't comfortable, let's say? I think. it's also just a part of just. understanding. the situation. we're in as and not only as as. celebrities, but artists, you know? Being two people that make music and. tell the story of the heart and that's. just a big part of it and we both are. very aware of of that, you know? So just.

having respect for the fact that. we're storytellers, you know? Wow, and. that takes a lot though. Yeah. That. takes a lot of maturity. for sure. That's like a really mature. perspective to have. Yeah, and I mean. we've been doing it since we're very. young. So I think at this point we're. just like. we hopefully just have a great deep. great respect. So, I don't think either. of us would ever cross a line, you know, we we deeply respect each other.

That that takes a lot, man. It's so hard. to like. you know, as as I've always said to you, you're an old soul because I'm like I. know people like twice your age, maybe. even. more than that, who who struggle with. that. Like it's it's so hard to. actually have that perspective and. understanding and respect for someone's. personal, professional. Yeah. you know, orbit. It is. It is, yeah. It's hard when it's. two people, too. It's easy for one. person to do. I'm just lucky she's an. amazing human being and she's incredibly.

understanding and thoughtful and caring. So, communicating with her is not. difficult and I think that's just. probably a huge part of it. Yeah, yeah. Why does it feel sometimes. that. you can have. two people who respect each other so. much. connect so much, have so much admiration. and and love for each other, but that. it's not right romantically. Like, why. is that? Because you have this beautiful. lyric that in nobody knows that says. when you're so in love and your souls. touch, but it's still not in love, where.

does it go? Like, I feel like that's. something a lot of people have been. struggle with. Yeah. That's a great question. It is a great. question. I I don't have the probably. greatest answer for. I think that's. exactly why I asked, where does it go? Where does that love go when it's so. present? Um. and I think the best answer I can come. up with is just that. love. is a lot, but. partnership is more than love and.

I think it has a lot to do with. how you support each other in your. day-to-day life and really being honest. about who you are and. making sure that someone that you're. with is in support of that and doesn't. have to bend themselves entirely to be. in support of that and vice versa, you. know, and I think. it's tough because you can go your whole. life and never feel that feeling of deep.

love again. And uh. I think it's just really complex. It's. it's it's been something I think people. have been trying to figure out for a. long time and. I just think potentially, you mean we've. talked about love a lot. I think. potentially we're still all wrapping our. heads around love and we're still. working through such westernized movie. romanticized dramatized versions of of. it. And if you go to places that have. been less exposed to that type of. thinking then maybe love is a little.

simpler or a little more, I don't know. Um. And so for me, like I just like. hopefully there's a little bit of both. Hopefully you can have that spark and. that magic and that love and you can. also have that compatibility where your. two lives are working in. flow with each other, you know, and. obviously you're going to have to bend. here and there, but. I think to a degree, you know. Yeah, I. don't ask you or anyone because I think. someone has the perfect answer. I know I. don't. I I ask because I think when.

people are navigating something that's. when they have the most reflective. Yeah. variegated view of it because when. you're actually going through it. Yeah. you actually can at least people. can hear themselves in you Yeah. in in your voice and that's what the. song does. It's like. people listening to it going, "Gosh, yeah, am I with the right person at the. wrong time or is it the wrong person at. the right time or is it. a constant question. It's like a. constant question to be like, I mean, that's also part of it is like not.

it's okay to be unsure even if you're. unsure for the rest of your life. Like. that might be part of it and. And that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the art of what you're talking. about in the album, what you talk about, what we've talked about, what what. you're speaking about is just this like. how do we get comfortable with. discomfort? How do we get okay with. uncertainty? Whether that's And but. that's like that is the hardest thing. and like you said it's not something. that you ever get to.

It's something you're constantly. practicing, like constantly working on. and I feel like romantic love is the one. that like exposes everything because. Yeah. there's love, there's envy, there's. comparison, there's competition. Like. there's so many emotions that it kind of. triggers out in you. What have What have. you done to. manage your discomfort and uncertainty. when it comes to to love or just. generally? I'd say both. Both, yeah, both. I mean I think. it's.

a lot of therapy, honestly. And I think for me it's just I. think everyone's different. For me it's. really helpful to just speak as. practical as I can about each situation. This is what's happening and this is. what's not happening and this is what's. going on and I'm feeling confused and. all of this is just happening and that's. okay. You know, I think to be honest it's like. I'm currently not in a relationship. So. I'm sure I'll I'm I can't wait to be. back in the the love spins, the.

the all the emotions getting triggered. and all this stuff cuz being in a. relationship is really hard. It's I. think sometimes it's easier to from the. place of being single to be like in a. place of like hey, like you know, find. the balance but like once you're in a. relationship it's much harder. It's well. once you have something to lose it's. much harder to not have a tight grip on. it, you know? And so we'll see when I'm. when I'm back in that state. No, I love what you're saying cuz I I've. always said and maybe I've never even. said this out loud but I always thought.

I always reflect on like if forever for. whatever reason and and not that this is. indicative of anything that's happening, but if for whatever reason me and Radha. were to ever go our separate ways, it's. interesting. I think a lot of people. would say, "Oh, but you told us you. loved each other.". Yeah. And you told us you had the. perfect relationship, and which I have. not, but and I've I don't have a perfect. relationship. I've never claimed to have. one, but the viewpoint becomes, "But but. you guys like Yeah. you know, Jay, you. wrote a book on love. Like, how could.

you break up with someone?" And I'm. like, "No, no, no, like that's life. Like, that's reality." Like, and I think. we have this view, again, clarifying, there's nothing going on. I'm just. Yeah, of course. I'm just saying it for. for an example, because I think it's so. important to address these things, because I think we have these very fixed. viewpoints. Yeah. of of what something should be and. what something should look like. think it goes back to just like, I don't. know, like maybe this sounds too. idealistic or or like optimistic, but.

like I think it goes back to just. finding. what you actually figuring out what it. is you actually want in life. Like, for. me, it's like, do I want. to be in a constant state of like, I. have someone, I have this like this. fiery thing that always is mine, and it. you know, it's like more of that like. ownership, that like uh desire, which is.

which is super enticing and and gorgeous. in its in itself. Or like, what is it. that I actually want? Or do I want to. feel. just a general more more love from more. places, and do I want to. feel supported, and like I'm growing, and like I'm being. seen. And if you really ask yourself. that question, and then you find an answer, you might. not, but if you find an answer, then you can start moving forward with. what your answer was. And for me,

it was really more of just like. I really do want to just like have a. greater I I don't want all of my eggs to. be in one basket, you know? Cuz I don't. know how life can go. Like things. happen, people die, people get sick, people. you know, fall out. Like I I And I don't. want to be I I. I would love nothing more than to meet. my wife as I walk out of the store. today. But like at the same time, too, like. yeah, I just want to until that moment. I'd love to be experiencing love also,

you know? Yeah. I don't want to just. wait till then, you know? So. There's. some fans outside waiting now. Ready to go. Yeah, no, it's no, I I Do you know what? That's what I've always admired about. you and I I'm hearing it today. I hear. it in the album like. you've just always focused on asking. good questions. And and that's like your. life. Like that's who you are. And and I. think that it's so funny because as. humans we get so fixated on the answers. And we get so fixated on just a few. answers. So, we ask the same question.

Yeah. Like, will I ever find my person? Like, is this the right person? Like, we. ask the same questions. And we don't ever get any better answers. to the same question. Yeah, there's no answer to those. questions. There's no answer to those questions. And what I've seen in you is you're. always trying to ask like this wider. array of questions that. that, you know, like where will it go? Yeah. Like, isn't because the normal. question to that would be like like so. when you're so in love and your souls. touch, but it's still not in love, where. does it go? Most people would go, "Well, is that love or not?". Yeah, does that mean it was love? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

not I don't question that. There's zero. doubt in my mind that love is love. It's. yeah, it's like, where does all that. love go to? And I think that question. itself is like, oh, it that love is. still completely here and able to funnel. into the same person if they're willing. to receive it in a different light or. funnel into anyone else around you that. you love, you know? And. but uh it's also like, damn, like, that. absolutely sucks. Like, that there's.

this that is just a. just sucks, you know? So, I also I also might have said like, "Doesn't that suck?". You didn't You didn't know I didn't. know, but that's something I would have. read, bro. Yeah. Because it does. Yeah, exactly. It goes back to your. point of the truth. You know, I really. want to encourage people to, you know, I. I'm going into my world a bit here, but. everyone who's listening and watching, I. really hope this album helps you ask.

different questions. Yeah. Because I I. feel like that's a real strength you. have, and I've learned through being in. your company that you don't really ask. the same. questions that we all ask, and I think. that's what's led you on this beautiful. journey and beautiful path, and been. able to look at. the same things we all go through, but. in a different lens, is because it's. your ability to to always zoom out and. ask a question that isn't the obvious. one. Oh, wow. Thank you, dude. And it's. really powerful, and and I love that. it's through music. So, yeah, sorry, I.

went into a bit self-development, personal growth, but Hey, man. I'm right. there. They all know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, for sure, for sure. Um there's a couple more lyrics here. that I that I love because. I they're just so powerful in the love. and relationship space that I have to. bring them out. This Yeah, this one. So, but what about. the in-betweens? You lay your head on. me, living for the next time that we. touch, isn't that enough? Yeah. Talk me through that. Yeah. I think similarly kind of to what we. were just saying is if you're if you're.

always focused on the highs, you might be waiting a while to receive. something special, you know? And all. these all these beautiful in-between. moments, like, even like for me, allowing myself to. kind of like, love the moment before the show and. after the show and. the morning and. all of that really. it does one it does a lot of things. actually takes pressure off of the show.

to have to be such a big deal. And then it also just helps me enjoy the. day generally much more, you know? If I. sit there all day being like there's one. important thing today and that's the. show. That's basically one and a an hour. and a half two hours of my day. What. about the rest of it, you know? I want. to enjoy the in-betweens, too, cuz they. are beautiful, you know? Yeah, because otherwise our life's just. book ends. They're just they our life we. look back it's just the highs and lows, you know?

Yeah, that Oh, wow. Like yeah, that's. Yeah, and and I find like it's also then. your life becomes a waiting for. What the next high? yeah. Yeah, and so you're living in. constant anticipation. Constant anticipation. anxiety for something to end. Yes. And that's the only in-between you. have. Absolutely. linked to a beginning and an end. Yeah. So, I'm in anticipation of when will. that good thing come? Yeah. And then I'm in anxiety of. When will this good thing end? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oof.

Uh one one last one which you go so. vulnerable on, you say, where is it? Visions of her naked in my head head but. I went off and chose my self instead. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's. that's. there is a. voice, maybe you can call it a voice or. a feeling, I think, inside of us. that says sometimes like this is what. you got to do. You got to do something. hard here, you know? And our very human.

side will do everything in its power to. get you not to do that. And it will just like show you images. and. movies and the best plot you've ever, you know, seen in your life of the thing. and it can really confuse you and just. be like, what have I done, you know? If. you are I mean, I think a really common. thing actually I've noticed is a lot of. people who have recently been in a a. breakup would be would tell me like, oh,

like I've been having dreams of them. every single night for 3 months, you. know. Wow. And I thought that was just me. I. thought I was just I thought I was the. only one and I thought it meant. something. And I think that. it's really common, you know, just for. our it's part of the process of of. something and at the end of the day like. I think. we all we can do is is try to make the. best decision that we think is best for. ourself. and accept that because I'm not going to.

at the end of my life God's not going to. appear and be like, hey, all these. things you did, those were the right. decisions and all these ones were the. wrong ones. Like that's not going to. happen. I'm never going to get that. I'm. never going to get that. So, I'm just. trying to understand that like, yeah, I think. it's uh. it's just expressing that side of just. like mental torment when you're going. through healing that's just like it.

wants to keep you somewhere. A big question I ask myself is like, when I am struggling to move past. something, I ask myself like, what is it. that holding on to this thing or this. person or this way, what is that protecting me from? Like, what is that way of being protecting me. from? So many times it comes back to such a. similar thing, you know, and. in relationships like it's often times.

just like, oh, this feeling of comfort, this feeling of I don't want to be. alone, you know, and. the beautiful thing is that if you can. kind of move through those feelings on. the other end might be like a grander. sense of comfort from within yourself, but also a greater diversified comfort. from many people and that creates a more. consistent sense of home and comfort. And it's just like it's just interesting. how it all works. What about the torment. of like people who people who would say. like. well, why can't you and Camila just make.

it work and just be together and just. like come on, you love each other so. much or the other side where people. would say, well, well, if it's not. working, just let it be. Just just throw. it away. Just forget about it. And. you're kind of happy to live in the. torment of like I'm I'm happy to be in. the in between. I think the reality is. no one will ever know what it's like to. be in our bodies and. to feel what we feel and to know where. we know we're going. Cuz oftentimes where we know we're going. is not something we can express through. words to other people. It's just a sense.

a sense of where I'm headed and. no one's ever going to understand that. So. I just that stuff is just noise in the. wind for me. It it it feels like. we're talking something so surface here. about something so immensely deep and. complex that. it's not even worth my time to go into. to answer those questions cuz there's. not even a. an answer to those questions, you know, and it's not a sense of I think choosing. to live in torment. I think it's exactly.

like uh listening to yourself and. trusting that. And. I had a friend. who's going through hard decision and. they asked me like. I said, you just got to follow your. intuition. And they're like, what does. that feel like? And I'm like, well, I can't ex- necessarily I'm like a I. don't know, like a like a little thing. in your stomach or your I'm like, I. actually don't know. Like, but this is. clearly exactly the moment that you're. about to learn what it feels like. And.

like, if you can't find that sense of. intuition, then. well, at at point, I don't know what. guides us, you know? Also, if you're not. sure, you might not be ready to make the. decision yet. Like, there is a There is. a pressure to make decisions all the. time. Like, I understand you don't want to waste. people's time. I understand you don't. want to do the wrong thing prematurely, but like, some things just need to play. themselves out, and. it's I think that's just the reality,

too, you know? So, Yeah. allow yourself. to get to that place, but don't let. yourself go over that place, please. I'm going to say this to you cuz I don't. think I've said this to you before, but. it but it's an interesting reflection. I'm having right now. I actually feel. with you, we get a sense of your old. soul when. I ask you a superficial question. And and actually like And I haven't. tried to ask any profound questions. today because that's not my goal, but. there's a there's a beautiful simplicity. of you that comes out. Yeah. because you would never answer a.

basic simple question in a basic simple. way. And that's what I think actually. kind of demonstrates where your. consciousness is. Yeah. In a beautiful. way. Yeah. And so, it's just a thought I'm. having right now. I'm like, I'm never. going to ask you a profound question. ever again in my life because that's not. it for you. For you, your your your like. essence comes out when you're having. like a conversation that people would. think is really normal. Yeah. But you just don't look at it that. way. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. I almost can't compute. It's like the thing happens in my head.

where I can't compute surface. Yeah. And I I'm like, It's not computing. We got to get We got to get under it. how we get to see that you're not. computing. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Totally. And I only. realized it while having this. conversation. I was like, oh yeah, like, but um but yeah, I wanted to show you. something because um I sent it You can. You'll probably guess who it's from. Um which I thought was really beautiful. Oh, yeah. That's beautiful, man.

Is Tony crying? What was he crying about? I'm probably um um a lot of things. He's. going through a lot of beautiful things. in his life right now, too. But, these are my people. Like, these are. I talk about like an album is not just. about making music. If you let it, it. can also be about. completely changing your life and the. relationship to the people you've made. the album with. Like, what this has done for me and these guys.

is just like they became friendships to. lifelong friendships, you know? What. does it feel like being in this room. 10 years. Dude. Since like that that to me feels. like such a incredible journey that. we're going to be a part of here. Like, to to sit in here 10 years older. You. were what? You were 16? Yeah. 15 going on 16. Yeah, I remember. singing Treat You Better in here and. like. I love that. Something, yeah. I just was.

I I remember just like so much. inner torment and so much breakthrough. Like, this is this place of breakthrough. for me. This is always where I've found. the wall and I've broken through it. And. it's just a magical little place, dude. It's like it's like my version of. Hogwarts here, you know? Really is. And um. I can't I'm just so happy Like, this. this time around like what I've been. really trying to do is. everything to be really have a lot of.

intention of just like we're here right. now, you know? And we're upstate and I'm. going to play a show. in a few days where I made the album. It's like you have to work so much. harder to curate an experience when you. just allow the story you just kind of. let the story happen and support that, you know? And. it just feels like. yeah, I needed a lot of holding. And. even even just through this week like. the first little show I did yesterday, like I needed to be in this room. This.

room knows how to hold me and. yeah, man. Just uh. It's cool. I just love it here. I'll. I'll be here for many more years. Yeah. I think uh I feel like everyone can find. a similar place like this for. themselves. It may not be a place where. they record music, but. a place that they can turn to and come. to and be held by and. be embraced by and feel rooted and feel. nourished and.

Yeah, I hope this acts as a symbol to. encourage people to look for that. It could just be a little tree somewhere. on a hike. It could just. What's your take on that? Yeah, look for. it or be open to the fact that you might. be in it and you not might know it very. well and. yeah, it's just. having a space. that holds the intention of. the place you go to. lay it all out, you know, really like.

lay it all out and break through and and. and struggle and. not all studios feel like this. It's. also beautiful town we're in, too. Like. this town is special and not being, you. know, in nature, like that's just like. in the winter, it gets really different. here, too. It's a whole whole story. Yeah, we've had rain and thunder in this. room already. It's like Oh, yeah. It's. like beautiful. looking at it behind you. Yeah, it was. raining. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh Shawn, you talked about. um. your sister and I talked about mine. Yeah. And Elia actually sent us a note. My sister? Yes. Oh, no. I'm going to cry already. Um Is it okay if I read it to you? Sure. Yeah. Fresh hooked it up, so Fresh hooked this. up? Oh, no. Yeah. You ready? Sure. So, she says, "Dear Shawn, I want to start by saying a huge thank.

you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for opening up your heart, being brave, and sharing your incredible gifts with. all of us. Thank you for being not just a beautiful. human, but also the most amazing friend, brother, son, mentor, and artist. I'm truly at a loss for words to. describe how proud I am of you, how. proud we all are. Your music today feels like the most. genuine and authentic art you've ever.

created. It's filled with vulnerability, fear, diversity, patience, humility, pain, and a sense of home. But, above all, it feels. unapologetically and beautifully you. Watching you grow over the years has. been such a privilege. I feel extremely lucky to be by your. side as your little sister, and to be a part of this incredible.

process with you. You've taught me so much about. connecting with my own heart and body, tapping into embracing my truths, and. living with more love, perspective, and. abundance. I absolutely adore your eagerness to. learn, and the way you listen so. thoughtfully. Eagerness is a kind word. And I'll be honest, I really enjoy. watching your unique YouTube videos with. you. Honestly, you're like a real-life. freaking cool superhero to me.

Thank you for having the courage to be. imperfect, and for sharing that with the. world. Your compassion and kindness, both towards yourself and others, are. real superpowers. We all feel the depth of your connection. through your authenticity. It shines in. everything you do, and it's especially. powerful in Shawn, the album love. This connection you create through your. music has helped me feel more grounded. in my own life. And I know it will. resonate with others in just as. meaningful a way.

It's like nine hearts with love so. deeply, Aleah. Oh, man, that's so beautiful. Thank you. It means a lot. I love you, Aleah. Oh, man. Yeah. She's my best friend. And I think. over the last 6 months we've just gotten. so close and. my little big sister, too. Like I think. when you start. letting your little sister be your big. sister sometimes, you know,

it's such a beautiful experience when. you see your pain. turn into something beautiful and then. people start to feel that way. And you. got to believe people when they tell. you, you know, especially in people in. my life. Like she would not say that if. she didn't mean it. Even for you. And so, yeah, I'm just I'm kind of in. awe of it all and and grateful for it. all because although I was there every. day doing it, like. there really was a greater thing at play.

and. yeah, man, it's been it's been the most. healing. thing I've ever done. Yeah, I really. hope people feel that way, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean. I wanted you to hear it from her because. I feel like. we all need to hear it. Yeah. We all need to hear it. Yeah. And you know, I can imagine that. when you finish an album, it's actually. the beginning of then sharing it with. the world. Yeah. And so, my hope today internally. was like, I want you to feel so much.

love Yeah. and so much support and so much embrace. so that as you go out and I thought of. it almost like this. Like the beginning. it's this little spark that's so, you. know, tender and. you have the people you really trust, and you show them little clips of it, little voice memos, and they put little. They put their little twigs on it, and. that flame starts to grow, and then you. start showing other people, and they put. a log, and I almost imagine my team and. my friends and my family each placing. logs on this fire, and now we just have.

this like massive bonfire going. If If. there was a hurricane, it wouldn't blow. it out. It's just like, "All right, now. we're good. Give it to the world. It can. handle anything, you know?" And that's. really what it feels like. It feels so. much greater than anything I could be a. part of, and um but thank you. That's. really so sweet, man. All right. The I. love you, man. I always have, and um. it's really special for me, as well, because I feel like. I've said this to you, and I want to say. out loud, it's the.

You had every reason, when I met you, to. just keep doing. what what would have been the right. business decision, the right. professional decision, the the right. artist decision from a. results standpoint. And I think. your bravery and courage at your age, and the maturity to step back, and actually say, "I'm going to go on a deep inward. journey.".

And I don't even want to use the words. find yourself, because that would mean. that you've completed it, and now you're. sharing it. So, just go on a journey of. self-discovery and adventure. And. then to come back to this when. you feel you're ready to share wherever. you currently are. Yeah. It would have been so much easier to. just not think about these things. Yeah. In the short term. In the short term. And as I've said to you before, I've.

seen people do that for three or four. decades, Yeah. and then finally figure it out. And the fact that you chose to do it so. young is an immense. credit to your incredible family, your. friends, to you, your team, and everyone around you because. you made the hardest, most difficult. decision in your position. And I'm so like happy to just see the.

fruits of it. Me too, man. Because I still remember so many. conversations of. Infinite. All the little seeds. that we planted of like. intention and love and. hope and everything. It's all just. everything's blooming. We're standing in. a farm of just like love like everything. at the same It's almost overwhelming the. amount that starts to happen in the. harvest and it's just yeah, this season. Yeah. And I'm so humbled that you. allowed me to not only.

walk that parts of that journey, little. parts of that journey with you, but have. this opportunity today, too, because. Yeah. it's uh. it's rare that you get to live in these. cycles with people, especially when. we're so busy and you know, and so. I'm so grateful that this is the first. of our hopefully forever cycles. Yes, sir. And I'm I'm with you all the way. I. love you. I'm rooting for you and. Thank you, Jay. I've got your back through it all. Thank you, man. I know you do. Yeah. I. really appreciate you, man. You too, man. Uh we we end every On Purpose with.

a final five, which are a fast five. You. have to answer each question in one word. to one sentence. Let's give it a shot. Let's try this. They're not superficial, so don't worry. I'm not like what's your. favorite food? You just start getting. long-winded questions. Uh. question number one, Shawn, these are. your fast five. Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever. heard or received? Wow. Nothing's coming to mind. Mhm. That's good. I like that already. It all.

sums up in an energy, I guess, more. that's just like anytime someone. says something. that just allows there to be more space, you know. Question number two, what is the worst. advice you've ever had? Um. to suck it up. Question number three, how would you. define your current purpose? I would define my current purpose with.

just being committed to be. the most honest version of myself in. every moment, you know. Um. I have a lot of trust in. what that will do. in this world. Um. and I think. I've learned so much like even just to. be here, I've learned so much about.

following my truth into the dark and. feeling like I'm letting people down, but how that led me into. creating a really beautiful healing. album and hopefully that how that will. pick people up. And it's kind of all. part of it. Question four is what's the message to. the fans with this album, Shawn? And. Bring your tissues. I love you guys and I am beyond. grateful for your patience and your love. and.

it's a beautiful thing to be growing up. at the same time as you. And so I hope a. lot of the words and and the stories. resonate with you and I hope you feel me. because I feel like we've been out of. connection for a long time and. um. I just always want to be. honest with you guys no matter what. And. so I hope you love it. A little off show of that, why was now. the right time to come back for you? There was a moment 6 months ago when. Andrew and a couple people I love, they.

kind of like were like, "Hey, can we. just play you back some ideas you've. sent us that we think are cool?" And I. was like, "They're probably not." And. they brought me into a room and they. played them back and I was like, "These. are kind of cool.". And it was just very obvious to me that. like. I got to go try, you know? Like I think. often times people wait for inspiration. to fall into their lap before they try. And then sometimes you got to go in. there and chop wood and carry water for. a few days before inspiration strikes.

And you know, 3 days of like, "Why am I. here? I should not be here. I'm not. ready to be here." The fourth day. inspiration strikes. 6 months later you. forgot you ever were chopping wood and. carrying water. You were just enjoying. yourself and making art and it just. changed, you know? So. it's the right time, I guess, just. because it is. Did you really want to leave in those. first 3 days? Desperately, yeah. And it. And it's funny how quickly I forgot I. wanted to leave and how quickly it just.

turned into passion and inspi- inspired. to make something beautiful again. Like. almost like. a night and day difference. Just. that's how inspiration works sometimes. Yeah. Feel the fear and do it anyway. Exactly, yeah. going to wait for it to be free of fear. and then take the step. Yeah, no, no, no. The fear is like the greatest thing. because you're scared of something and. that something is probably something. worth writing about if you're a writer, you know?

Fifth and final question we ask this to. anyone who's ever been on the show. The. question is, if you had to create one. law that everyone in the world had to. follow, what would it be? The law The law would be to to say what. you really feel, you know? But to say it. in a way that doesn't really hurt. people. But like to speak the truth, you know? Speak your truth. You're going to get so. much further I think with that. Yeah. That'd be a horrible law though. And hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to get arrested if.

I don't say this man, but that hair does. not look good. Not your hair right now, your hair looks. great. I love that. Yeah. Shawn, thank you my brother. I. appreciate you. It's been beautiful. It's been a lot of fun. Yes, it has. It's been emotional. It's been deep and. raw and vulnerable just like the album. and uh I I can't wait to see you perform. live. I'm so excited. Okay, thank you man. Thank you. If you loved this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with. Selena Gomez on befriending your inner.

critic and how to speak to yourself with. more compassion. My fears are only going. to continue to show me what I'm capable. of. The more that I face my fears, the. more that I feel I'm gaining strength, I'm gaining wisdom, and I just want to. keep doing that.