Ryan Holiday ON: How To AVOID BEING MISERABLE For The Rest of Your Life | Jay Shetty

If success is this lagging indicator of. commitment now, how can you be sure that. you are paying your dues? The best-selling author and host. The number one health and wellness. podcast. with Jay Shetty. Society has gone in the direction of. becoming addicted to pleasure. Yes. Or. pleasure-seeking. Where. from the Stoics' perspective. why did we even ever go down that road? Like, why did we leave wisdom and. self-control? Or did we never have it at. all? Or we've always been trying to.

balance it. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the big. question is like, why do we take. something that we like too far? Yeah. Right? So, the Epicureans would say. like, "Look, drinking is great, but if. you have a hangover the next day, was it. actually so great?" And so, you know, if. you if you push the or the pleasure too. far, it becomes not pleasurable. But in the moment, that feels very far. away, right? Like, in the moment, you. want the thing now. Obviously, sex is. this thing for people. It's like, the.

thing you're attracted to in this. moment, you're not thinking about the. shame or the regret or the consequences. or the pain or the loss or the grief. You're not thinking of all those things. You're just thinking of right now. So, I. think a big part of this, this is where. the wisdom comes in, the ability to step. back and go, "What am I going to think. about this after I get it? What am I. going to think about this later?" And. realizing that your mind is very good at. tricking you. Just as your mind too. often tells you like, "Stop. You're too. tired. You can't go any further." You. actually have a lot left left in the.

tank. Your mind also tells you, "You need this. thing. You won't regret it. It's a ma-. You know, whatever." Yeah. And it it's. it's really good at putting those. blinders on. And so, part of. I think any meditative practice, any. philosophical practice, any journaling. practice. is is being able to argue with yourself. a little bit, to step back and have that. conversation about "Well, is what I. think about this true? Is the story I'm. telling myself about this true? I think. nowhere is this more important than for.

like ambitious people who have told. themselves, I will be happy when I. accomplish X. Right? Like of all the. things we need to be most disciplined. about, ambition is one of them cuz it. tells you this lie that after I become a. New York Times bestseller, after I make. a million dollars, after I get a gold. medal, then I'll be good, my parents. will be proud of me, I'll be happy, then. I can relax. And you have to have the perspective, the wisdom to go, "Was that ever been. true ever in my life before? Has that. ever been true in history?" Yeah. And.

then go, "Oh, okay, no, I can't tell. myself that lie." That doesn't mean you. don't work really hard to do stuff, but. you're not doing it under the false. pretenses that it's going to. be conditional to your happiness. Yeah, but there's a part of us that and. I and I love what you're saying, but. there's a part of us that always. believes that we are the exception. That. we will know how to spend money better. That we'll know how to. have love in our life better. Like we. won't be the one who fumbles off the end. of a cliff. Like we're smarter than all.

our friends even if we don't say that. We're wiser than the people who came. before us. And that's the and that's ego. is the enemy. But of course like that. that idea I think is what misleads us so. much. Yes. Yeah, it's it's like okay, you're on the metal standing, just won. the gold medal, and you're not feeling. happy for yourself. You're thinking, "Well, I could have done it faster.". You're thinking, "Oh, I got to do it. again." Right? Even in that moment. you're not able to think, "I'm doing it. to myself right now what I will be doing. to myself in the future." And that's.

this sort of insidious thing and you can. understand why from an evolutionary. perspective, it drives the species. forward. But you can also see the. immense personal cost that it inflicts. on us cuz it never allows us to be. present or content or happy with what we. have in that moment. And so I think. again, people think discipline is the I. always push myself to do better, do. more. Discipline can also be curbing. that very impulse, right? It like.

And ordinary people when we're talking. about discipline, what we're talking. about is. getting off your butt, working out, resisting eating candy and eating. nutritious food instead. It's, you know, managing your screen time. But. I think for a lot of more disciplined. people or for people who have tasted the. rewards of discipline, you have to learn. how to be disciplined about discipline, which is maybe the highest level of. of the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Now we're I guess now we've started. talking about discipline as a tool to. achieve daily or weekly, monthly, yearly. tasks. But you're actually saying that. we need to go back a bit. Like how would. you unpack that for how you're defining. discipline there? Well, it's it's like. what's the number one cause of injury. for athletes? It's overtraining, right? So like, yeah, your ordinary person, it's like you're not training enough. You're not working hard enough. But then. at an more elite level, at a more.

accomplished level, actually the trouble. is, hey, the the race isn't for 6 weeks. Like, you do you want to peak now or do. you want to peak at the right moment, right? Um or this is just a practice session. You don't have to go all out. Or, you. know, it's a long season. Are you. prepared for that? And so, you know, discipline. has to be balanced with sustainability, with rest, relaxation, recuperation, recovery, all these other things. And. that requires kind of a spiritual.

discipline not just, hey, I can run an. hour without getting tired, but like, can I stop myself from doing that? That's not what I should be doing in. this moment. Yeah. And And what I like about that is. that I feel there's different phases and. stages. Like in the first 2 years of my. career where we would have met in New. York and we went on a walk once as well, I think. And we we were walking around. the city and I remember talking about a. few of these themes, but it was at that. time in my life I was working probably. 18-hour days. Sure. Because I I had to in order to.

kind of break through that first level. Yeah. I was still disciplined in the. sense that I would make time to eat to. some degree and and meditate and I would. make some time to do a few things of. rest, but generally I was working 7 days. a week, 18 hours a day. And I'm very. grateful I did that. I don't look back. and go, "Oh, I wasted 2 years." It was. brilliant. But then in the last couple of years. I've taken my evenings back. And so I. don't work after 6:00 p.m. It's just a. rule. I don't want to work. I don't want. to be on the phone. And I was talking to. a friend and it's exactly what you said. He was saying to me he was just like,

"Well, don't you get less done?" And I. was like, "No, I get more done.". Sure. Because I know how much I have to. get done. I'm far more attentive and. focused. And then I'm not working at. 9:00 p.m. when I can rest and. recuperate. And now the next day I'm I'm. better for it. And so I I hear that idea. that that is also a discipline or that. could be seen as you being lazy in the. evening. And I think it's the question. of what is it easy for you to do that, yes or no? Right? It's hard it's. actually harder for you, I imagine, to. say, "I'm stopping at 6:00." than it is.

to say, "I'm going to work all night. till I fall asleep at my desk." Right? Like Yeah, I could do that. Yeah. If my. wife's not around, I could work every. weekend and evening. And also it's realizing that you have. multiple things you're trying to do. simultaneously. So, yeah, sure, working. continuing to work 18-hour days may help. you continue to advance in your career. But if one of the also the other things. you're trying to work on is to stay. married or to better yet have a happy. marriage or you have children or you. have your health or whatever. Like you. you were telling me before we recorded.

that you like you got in at 3:00 a.m. last night. Let's say you're a person. who always wakes up very early. Like I'm. a person who wakes up early. But then I. also have to understand that sleep is a. discipline. And so if some changes. outside my control mean that I didn't go. to bed to a certain time, the fact that. I wake up at 5:00, that's bad idea. And. it actually requires you wouldn't think. that sleep discipline would be a thing, but in the military they talk about that. sleep discipline. You got to get your. hours because you make bad decisions. when you're not rested. And other people.

bear the consequences of those. decisions. And so deciding, "Hey, I'm going to skip this thing that feels. comfortable to me to do, that feels. natural for me to do, that I feel like. I'm letting some part of myself down by. not doing, I actually have to be the. bigger, more self-controlled person and. say in this moment, I'm not going to do. that, right?" And And I think at the end. of the day self-discipline is the. ability to have an emotion, an instant, a feeling to do a thing, and then to.

catch yourself and go, "Is that actually. the right thing to do, yes or no?" And. sometimes it is, sometimes it's, "Hey, it's cold outside and it's 5:00 a.m. and. it's still dark, and I don't want to get. up. But I have to get up because I've. made these commitments, I'm behind you. blah blah blah." And other times it is. to stay in bed, right? Just like, you. know, sometimes uh you feel. surge of temper coming on and you have. to go, "No, that's not a good Like it's always.

the ability to step back, put the. emotion, the instinct, the opinion to. the test." And I think you learn this in. meditation, I think you learn this in. for Stoicism in the journaling of going. like, "Here's the thing, and I can. choose it or not. I can choose to. identify it or not. It is not me." I The. Stoics have this word ascent, right? Not. like ascent up a mountain, but a s s e n. t. Do you ascent to the feeling or not? Do you agree to it, rubber stamp it, approve it, go along with it, or not? yeah?

Yeah, that's what discipline is is. about. What do you ascent to and what do. you not ascent to? Yeah, I I wonder I. want to go over a tangent, I want to. come back to that cuz I actually really. like that point, but a few words ago. there was something that you sparked for. me. Sometimes I feel like with work it's. doable. Sometimes with even a partner or. with friends it's possible to say no, to. be disciplined. I find like and I want. to ask you this from your perspective, what about a sense of dad guilt? Like we. talk a lot about mom guilt and you know, if if we were speaking to mom I'd ask. about mom guilt in this scenario, but.

from a dad guilt point of view, like. you're a dad, I you know, and I I see. you wanting to be a good dad and and. you're very involved with your kids, but. at the same time you're a writer and. you're in a bookstore and you're doing. activist work. Like there's so many. things that you do. Do you ever feel. like that's like the hardest place with. discipline because it's like even if a. dad comes home at 3:00 a.m. And the kid. wants him at 4:00 a.m. like does the dad. stay up? Like what does the dad do? How. does it work? Well, it's so insidious. what we do is we go like I'm doing this.

for my family, right? And it's like, are. you? Or are you doing it for you? Are. you doing it for the money? How can you. be doing it for your family if you don't. see those people as a result of what. you're doing? Someone told me many years. ago they said, "Love is spelled t i m. e." And. I think about that all the time. I mean, obviously I always have things that take. me away more than I would like them to. be. And I suppose I could do nothing, but that would also leave me. unfulfilled. That would not be me. setting the example I want to set for my.

kids. But at the end of the day, realizing that everything I say yes to. also means saying no to someone or. something else. And. in some ways I try to use that dad guilt. a little constructively. I try to go, "Okay, this person's asking me to do. this thing or this person's offering me. money to do this thing or this is some. cool opportunity they want me to go. heli-skiing in British Columbia or. something." And I go, "I'm I don't want to say no to this cool. opportunity. I don't want to miss this. memory. I don't want to hurt this.

person's feelings." Then I go, "But I am. hurting a person's feelings. I am saying. no to a memory. Like I am taking. something away from someone. And that. person is a 5-year-old. And they're. going to feel it far more deeply. Someone else will take my spot on that. plane to British Columbia. No one will. spend that time with my kids." And so I. try to use that guilt constructively in. the sense that I'm I'm reminding myself. always that saying yes to one thing. means saying no to something else. And.

that conversely saying no means saying. yes, right? And then I always as much as. I can, I want to be saying yes to the. things that actually matter to me. And I. want to be putting my money where my. mouth is. It's like if if someone looked. at your calendar, you say you put your. family first, you say family's. important, blah blah blah. But then if I. looked at your calendar, what would it. show, right? If there was a custody. hearing or you know, if you were being. investigated,

if you were being audited, what would. the receipts show? Do you actually value. them? Do you put them first? And like it. should be pretty pretty obvious whether. that's true or not. Yeah, no. I I have. an exercise in Think Like a Monk where I. ask people to do their time audit for. the week. And it's literally that where. it's like And and it's against your. values because someone's values may be. different, but the idea that your. bank statement and your schedule show. your values more than what you say. Yes.

Right? The words that come out of our. mouth are not actually our values. They're our aspirations. Those are the. values you wish you had. But the values. that actually go, "What do you spend. your money on? And what do you spend. your time on?" Like that's far more what. your real values are. Yeah, I think. about that. I I saw this interview with. Jimmy Carter many years ago and he he. has this sort of crisis of faith and he. goes like, "If I was put on trial for. being a Christian, would I be. convicted?" Right? So it's not what you. say, not what you think, not what you. wish, but like what do the actions show?

And I think about that with Marcus. Aurelius, who I write a lot about the. the Stoic emperor. Like, he never. identifies explicitly as a Stoic, and. one of his translators says, you know, he never even says the word Stoicism. like in his writings. But, he's. considered this philosopher emperor, and. he probably still would have been even. if his writings had never survived. because the deeds are there. There's a. Latin expression, acta non verba, like. deeds, not words. And so, you have to.

always think not what do I write about, what do I think about, what do I want to. be true, but what do the actions show? And um no one is perfect, and I think. anyone auditing themselves uh is going. to be there's going to be some. disappointments, but you want like the. big. statements of priority to be there. And. to go back to the idea of guilt, when. you're looking at it, you shouldn't like. whip yourself and feel but you should be. like, "Okay, this is not the painting. the picture that I want to paint." And. that you're lucky enough in that moment.

to catch it now, not when you're 80, you. know, not on your deathbed. You're. you're you've caught it now, and so what. changes are you going to make to. to get closer between the ideal and the. reality. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and. something that that's interesting that's. coming out for me here is that pretty. much everything we do every day can be. defined by thinking, feeling, and doing. But, I think we're living at a time. where we're stuck in the feeling. generation. So, we do things because we.

want to feel a certain way, but then. when we feel things, we don't know what. to do with it. So, I'll give an example. of what I mean by that. If you. if we feel guilt, most of us don't know. how to shift from that feeling into. thinking and doing something different. in order to not feel that guilt again. Yes. And if we want to feel happy, we. just try and feel happy, not realizing. that you have to change your thoughts. and what you do in order to feel. happiness or whatever it may be. What. I'm trying to get at there is like.

that to me sounds like a discipline, too. Like, but we've gone so into. feeling because I think for so long. thinking and doing were the only things. talked about and we didn't feel enough. I think realizing that almost all the. things you want in life are accidental. byproducts of habits, processes, systems, routines, right? So, Victor. Frankl famously said that happiness. can't be pursued, it must ensue. It's. the result of getting those big things. right and then you just feel this kind. of feeling of happiness as a byproduct.

You don't, as you said, you don't go, "Today I must feel happy," right? You. It's It's the result of having meaning. and purpose and and taking the right. actions. And so, people sometimes look. at the books that I've written and. they're like, "What Like how do you do. publish so many books?" And it's like, "Publishing is not what I think about. I. think about writing. I wake up every day. and write and the accidental byproduct. of that is the publishing, right? And. so, good habits, good routines, like if.

you want a happier home life, it's like, are you spending more time there? Are. you you know, how are you setting up. systems or processes that the result is. that outcome, right? You control what. you put in, that the outcome happens or. it doesn't happen. And I think so often. we we just You're right, we just want. the feeling and so we try to cheat it or. steal it or we feel guilty that we don't. have it, when really you could start. small right now and and just get. yourself closer to it. Mhm. What What do you think is the best. discipline you've built like over time?

Like, is it writing? Obviously, that. would be the obvious one, but is there. another one that you think underpins. that success? Like, is there a. discipline you've worked on the longest? Well, I think writing is such a. sedentary sort of uh intellectual, cerebral thing that I try to balance it. out with like a physical practice. So, I. try to do something hard every single. day. Running, swimming, biking, I do a. walk once a day. Like, I do something. hard every day. And part of what that is.

is transferable back to the practice, right? Cuz again, it comes down to the. you don't want to do it, it's hard, it's. not going the way you want it, but. you've cultivated the muscle of being. able to push through that. Like, there's. lots of claims about the health benefits. of cold plunges. And they may or may not. exist. That's not why I do it, right? The muscle for me is is the cranking of. the knob of the looking at the cold. plunge in my house and going, "It is. going to be unpleasant to get in there, but I I have the ability to force myself.

to do that." That's the muscle that you. want to cultivate. Yeah. Um and I I think, you know, people. want to be the person on the other side. of that, but they don't realize that the. way you do it is by just starting it. Just starting it. Yeah, it's so true. I. I I can relate to so much of that in my. own life. And when when you're saying. that, it's I feel like today most of. what I do, I'd say I spend a lot I'd. spend I spend like 75% of my life. outside of my comfort zone. I am. constantly doing things that demand more.

from me than I believe I'm skilled and. able to accomplish. yeah. And in a healthy way, in a in a. good sense, cuz I feel challenged. And I. feel that challenge forces me to grow my. skills, which then meet a new challenge, and then that keeps growing. But then I. find myself in my personal life often. resorting to comfort, uh because I need. to kind of cushion the amount of like. pressure and stress. And so, it's like. this balance For me, I'm at that that. place in my life where I'm like, "Okay, I'm pushing so much. I need my personal.

life to be super like, you know, cushioned to some degree." It is. interesting, right? We will take And. Seneca points this out in one of his. letters, like, we'll push ourselves, we'll take risks uh to to succeed. financially, to succeed in business, to. succeed in our careers, to butchers our. reputations, but then we don't want to. do it in the other places. where most of us would admit it actually. matters, right? My favorite passage is. in Meditations Marcus Aurelius says. like, "A better wrestler, but not a.

better forgiver of faults, a better. friend in tight places." He he's. pointing out how we'll go like, "Yeah, I'm trying like. you'll talk to someone that has this. well-laid-out plan for how they're. trying to increase their back squat or. their mile time or how they're trying to. to they've got they've they've got these. aggressive goals for their stock price. or or, you know, how many copies they. want to sell of this thing or they have. we have really clear financial and. professional goals. And then in our.

personal life, we just wing it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't Yeah, I didn't mean that, but I. know what you mean. Yeah. I love that. point. And I think the point is like you have. to be challenging yourself. in your personal life also getting. vulnerable, you know, getting outside. your comfort zone, having the. conversations that you like I think it's. because our professional stuff is so. much more quantifiable. And then there's other people are. looking at it, whereas the other stuff. is private. And so we we just we hold. ourselves to different standards and you. think about what that costs us in terms.

of a place you get to in your marriage. in 10 years that had you thought more. consciously about or put 1/10 of the. focus on, maybe you could have got there. in 1 year and then had 9 years of. enjoying it. Yeah. No, that I fully. agree with and I maybe I didn't clarify. When I said comfort, I mean more apart. from like my sleep I have so many. routines that are already set up that I. try and make my personal life more. comfortable becau- as in my individual.

life of my own self-care because I find. I'm pushing myself in so many areas, but. I love where you took it to because I. think that's the critical one, right? It's like. what you're kind of leaning towards is. most people will become people they. don't want to be in order to achieve. something. And that external pursuit. often does that. By the end of building. a billion-dollar company or whatever it. may be, you end up going, "Well, I don't. even like the person I am anymore or.

I've lost the person who I thought I. was.". Whereas the pursuit of doing it inwardly. with your family, with your friendships, the the openness that's required, chances are you'll become the person you. want to be. Like chances are you'll. become someone that you're proud of. being and. I I think that's such I want to dive. into that. That is such a powerful way. of looking at it. And you're saying it's. because of the quantifiability, which. which I think there's truth in. I also. think it's the uh. it's harder. It's it's harder because. like you're saying, there's no external.

reward, there's no number that proves. you did it, and it's fluctuating way. more because people's emotions, like. anyone in your family and friends, you. can't control it. You could You can. control or master an algorithm or the. stock market to some degree, but with a. person, you can't do any of that because. you can't set something up and then be. like, "You're going to stay this way.". Well, it's like you get so used to the. control and the power that you have from. the mastery of your professional domain,

right? Like when I sit down to write, I'm in control. I'm comfortable. This is. a place that I have carved out for. myself. When I'm arguing with my wife or I am. dealing with a 3-year-old who's having a. meltdown, I'm not in control and I'm humbled by it. and I'm struggling with it and I don't. feel like I've got it cuz I have so much. less I've literally never done that. before. And I'll and I'll have such a. short window where I'll ever have to do.

it, right? It's not It's not like, oh, I've been in this place on a book 12. times, right? Like, I've only had one. 5-year-old. And so, you know, it's just. so much more challenging. It's just a. much more multi-dimensional, you know, N of 1 like. difficult thing. And so, it it's going. to demand more of you. And I think I. think it's like, look, optimizing your. professional life or maximizing your.

professional life. very unlikely to improve your personal. life. But if you have optimized and maximized. and improved your personal life, gotten. your house in order, you're going to be. better at what you do. You're going to. care less in some degrees about things. that used to bother you so much. And so, which one are you going to focus on, right? Cuz you can get you can be a. titan in your industry and then be a. total amateur at home, right? And I. think I'm going to go where it's easy. Mhm. Mhm. And that's And that's the.

thing, I think discipline often gets. applied to the titan in the industry, not the amateur at home. Yeah. And. that's how we think about discipline. We. think about discipline is what can I. achieve through this Yeah. uh in in an. external sense. Yeah, and you At least. today, that's the language. And you can. get away with so much more. If you're. really talented, you know, you can be a. jerk, right? You can demand a lot of. people cuz you're paying these people, right? Like, not saying you should, I'm. just saying that there's accommodations. that are made for you. And And.

sort of insidiously, the more successful. you are, the more needed you are, the. more accommodations you are. But there's none of that in the other. area. And so, you have to there's some. humility required, right? You You're. meeting equals on an equal playing. field. And the discipline to say like, yeah, I'm I'm going to wrestle with. that. I'm going to try to get better. I'm I'm not going to allow myself to to. do these following bad habits. That that. takes a a certain amount of self-control.

and focus and and discipline. Yeah, I. get I guess one of the biggest. challenges with discipline is that we're. trying to destroy a habit that we hate. Like there's this idea that it just has. to break and go, right? If you have a. habit that you don't like about. yourself, whatever that may be, it's like you're just Well, or at least. I found when I'm coaching clients or. working with people is that they have. this. like bitter feeling towards this thing. that they have. And they want it to go. at all costs, but that almost makes you.

hold on to it harder. Like that makes. you grip onto it and wrestle with it. more. And I remember when. when we when I lived in India, a lot of. the time the analogy that was given or. the the metaphor that was given to to. meditate on because we'd see all the. time was like snake skin. And the idea. was that when snakes shed their skin, they just slither out. They don't It. doesn't like they don't want to They. just go I mean, they don't even have a. Yeah, they Yeah, they're not like the. hawk. Whereas like like snakes just. slither out and then their skin gets. left behind and then it you know, they'll grow more. And so the idea that.

it's it's such a natural organic process. of if you just slither, if you just move. forward, you naturally shed. Um yeah, I. want to hear your thoughts on that. the beauty of process, right? You don't. sit down and go I have to do this right. now. What do I have to do today? What. are the small steps? And and you get. great by. minor improvements compounded on top of. each other day in and day out. Showing. up day in and day out. And. that's the same uh.

hey, we were fighting like crazy 6. months ago and now things are awesome. Why is that? They made a change and you. made a change and you made a response. and a change in response to their change. and it compounded and now you're here. That work can fall away at any moment. You have to rebuild it, but I think, you. know, the Buddhists talk about willful. will. Like almost the more intentional. you are about That's the irony, too, is. we're talking about how you know, being. intentional in your professional life. often pays off. Being intentional, having clear expectations, wants,

desires in your personal life is harder. because it depends on other people. Uh people who are not like you, people. who did not sign up for that. And I. think one of the things you learn having. kids and then also being married is that. like. a scent in that same sense of like. acquiescing to things, adjusting to. things. Like I'm a routine person. Kids. don't care about your routine. They fall. asleep when they fell asleep. And you. have to you have to adjust. Like you're.

no longer the center of the universe. And that is such an important thing that. you have to figure out and adjust and. accommodate towards. You're the master. of the universe here, but that you leave. that behind when you walk through the. front door. Yeah, absolutely. I was. talking to. Ammar from Yes Theory. I don't know if. you know the guys at Yes Theory. Yeah, they're awesome. And we've had them on. the show before, but I was talking to. Ammar the other day and they just. released their um. project Icarus Man. I think their. documentary, first time like their. feature documentary. But he was talking.

about this and he was saying that. when they built Yes Theory, the goal was. like how can we say yes to things we. would usually say no to, right? Like. that was the obvious point. And now he's. learned that it's equally important to. say no, but the part that really hit me. when he was explaining it and I think. we we both vibe with the idea. He was. saying that. and it's something you said earlier. He. said, "I have to start saying yes to the. things I find hardest." And so he was. saying that today, no matter how many. marathons he's done, no matter how many.

crazy expeditions they've gone on, no. matter how many countries they survived. with no money, he said the hardest thing. for him to do is sit with his thoughts. for 15 minutes. Like he was like, "That's the hardest thing." He goes, "I. don't look forward to doing that." He. said if someone told me to train for. something, he goes, "I look forward to. that." But if someone told me to sit. down with my thoughts for 15 minutes, he. was like, I don't look forward to it. So, that's what I'm doing. And he was. saying, that's why he's trying to build. that. And he was like, that's his new. definition of seeking discomfort. Because he said, when people come to him. and say, "Do you want to build like a a. million-dollar company, a billion-dollar.

whatever?" He's like, I can get excited. about that. But, he goes, I don't get. excited about it. Is that a good sense. of people finding what discipline is for. them? Or how do you see that? I mean, I. think restraint is the hardest thing, right? Uh Blaise Pascal in the 1500s. said, "All of humanity's problems stem. from our inability to sit quietly in a. room alone." It was hard 500 years ago. It's harder now when you have a cell. phone in your pocket, when you could get. on a flight and travel anywhere you want. in the world, and there's unlimited. distractions, opportunities, things to.

get excited about. Like, it's hard to. hold the mind still, to be physically. still, or or maybe not to be physically. still, but have the mind still while the. body is in motion. This requires like so much discipline, so much uh self-control, so much. self-awareness, right? Even to to to. understand that it's hard for you, that. it's something that you. uh are naturally averse to or avoid, is. a step in that journey to getting better. at it. Cuz a lot of people are just.

doing, doing, doing, and they're not. even aware they're running away from. something. They're not even aware that. it makes them uncomfortable to be still. So, I think we have to understand it's. this journey. And that hopefully as you. go, you get more and more comfortable. that cuz at the end of the day, that's. the That's the one constant in life. Wherever you go, there you are There you. are, as the expression goes. Like, you're there. And if you can't get. comfortable with that, can't get in. touch with that, you can't see what's. there, then you're going to wake up one day and.

realize. I did all of this stuff to get away from. something that's been inside me the. whole time. And. that's very, very sad. That is. That's. Yeah, that's. Well, that's the that's the inconvenient. truth of it, right? Like, that's the. hard part that you chased pleasure for. so long. that you completely missed. what was in what was already there, but. I I think is it that we don't What is. your take from studying it like Is it.

that we don't know the benefits enough? Is it that we don't like processes. enough? It is Is it that we're just. addicted and there isn't a because I. look at And And I do think looking at. very daily habit changes is the easiest. way to build the muscle to go I can do. this. So, I always give the example of. when I met my wife, I was addicted to. sugar. Like, I I genuinely was, and I. didn't even know it. I had a Sprite and. a chocolate bar every day without. thinking about it. It's how I got. through college. It was life. When I was. a monk, I didn't have either of those.

things, but that was more of a. suppression, and there was lots of other. interesting things to do or I didn't. need that kind of energy. When I came. back, You're like the convict who's. sober in prison. Just cuz you don't have. access to it. I didn't have access to it, and I didn't. I definitely built a discipline where I. didn't feel like I needed it, but then. when I came back to the real world, all. I wanted was chocolate and sugar. And so, when I met my wife, it's like, you know, we've been married for 6 years now, together for 10, and she like At first,

she would just educate me. And like, she would just tell me cuz. she's a dietitian and nutritionist. This. is her job. She's laying out all the all. the dangers of sugar. Then she's like. taking it out of the like home. Like, it's not around anymore. It's not. accessible. And then almost like it's. taken 6 years, and I would say now I'm. at a place where the habit is really. transformed. That's like a 6-year. journey. And obviously, it probably. happened like halfway through, I'd say. Like, probably happened 3 years ago. where I really started cutting out. sugar, but it needed a coach. My wife. was the coach. It needed a.

obedient or submissive student. I I. trust my wife on this area. It wasn't. like I would I didn't have an ego about. it. She knows more than me about the. body. And then on top of that. it needed a focus in the sense that in. my health we kind of did it one at a. time without even trying where is like. we took our sugar first, we started. working out next like she was she kind. of did that even unconsciously. It just. took so much and I go and I know. obviously with the Stoics we talk about. mentoring and coaching and there's. always this cross learning, but I feel.

like now we're all trying to do it on. our own. We are and we're also expecting. that it just happens and it's just like. epiphany. If knowing what to do was enough, everyone would be in great shape, no one. would have any of these illnesses or. problems that we have. It's so much more. complicated than that. And I think I I. do try to remind people that it's a it's. a journey that you're on your whole. life. There's passages in Meditations. where Marcus Aurelius is going, "You're. an old man and you're still losing your.

temper, you're still worried about what. other people think." He's like, "You're. still afraid of death and it's almost. here.". And and realizing that if the wisest. people in the world struggled their. whole life with this thing the idea that. you. who were lucky enough to hear about it. in your 20s or 30s or 40s that you're. just going to get it, it's naive and. it's also unfair to yourself. The. question is, are you getting better at. it as you go, right? Seneca says, "How.

do I know I'm making progress in my. philosophy?" He says, "I've begun to. become a better friend to myself.". So. discipline is not just squeezing blood. from the stone, it's not just whipping. yourself. It's. hiring a coach, it's uh you know, setting reachable goals as you go. It's. it's stepping back and giving yourself. credit and saying, "Look how far we've. come, man. Like we're doing great, right?" It it's not it's not just this.

sort of like in your face, like how are. you not there yet-ness, right? It's it's. a journey and you're not supposed to. really ever get there. That It's like. the horizon. It's always a little bit. further away. And so, you know, I think. when we hear discipline, I think we. think of like the Marine drill sergeant. Yeah. And this is kind of transformative. You didn't have discipline and now you. do. We should also think about it the. like having a discipline. It is a thing. you do your whole life. And realizing.

that that's how we should measure this. progress. I think though that that's. what we're banging our head against is. that the mind. has been so far removed from the idea. that things take time, that patience is. required, that one step at a time. Like. we hear those things all the time, but. there's literally nothing we do in our. lives that requires us to move one step. at a time anymore. Like it just doesn't. work. And we know these examples, like.

whether you're ordering food to your. house or whether you're getting this. delivered or whether you jump into an. Uber or Lyft. We know that. But I found. it really interesting recently, like I. just went through uh double hernia. surgery. And it's not life-threatening and it's. meant to be routine, but it's far worse. than the doctors make it out to be. And. the journey back to feeling like I can. operate normally, it's been 2 months now. and I'd say I'm 75% there. I would say. that the first 4 weeks were like. learning how to walk again.

Yeah. And I have never ever moved that. slow in life, in a good way. As in that. every movement of the body or the mind. had to be slow. Yeah. Because if I moved. fast, I could potentially relapse. Yeah. So, I couldn't I can't I still can't. pick anything above like uh 15 lb. I'm. not allowed. Uh I I couldn't for that. first month, like walk for the first. week and then I had to shimmy for the. rest of it, and I had to like when I sat. down on a chair, I had to be so mindful.

I was like, "Wow, I thought I was. mindful.". Yeah. And having this surgery has made. me the most mindful person ever. I've. I've never eaten that slow because. the digestion was harder, and there was. pain in this area, and so. it was the first time in a long time I. felt that present. And I consider myself. to be a present person. I think at the. root of it is this illusion we have that. we're in control, right? That we're. deciding how things go. And then we have. an injury or a problem or something that. disrupts it, and we are rudely, but also.

uh kindly reminded how little control we. have. I remember I was I I moved across. the country. I was writing my first. book. The 2 days before I was supposed. to start writing my bike in New Orleans, I get stuck in the streetcar tracks, I. go over the handlebars, I break my left. elbow, and I'm left-handed. And so like. all of the way that I was thinking about. writing this book goes out the window. for like 6 weeks. I couldn't get like. the a adrenaline or the endorphins that. I needed just to function as a person. So, I had to go on these like long.

walks. So, you know, I get the news, and. it's like, "Okay, I'm not going to be. able to work or think for like 6 weeks. This is a total dead loss for me.". But then I started taking these walks, like hour, 2 hour, 3 hour walks just. around. And what do you know? I start writing. the book in my head on these walks. If I. had gotten. things the way I wanted them to go, it. would have been far less advantageous to. me than me having to respond to the way.

they did end up going. So, at the core. of Stoicism is this idea that we don't. control what happens, we control how we. respond to what happens. It seems like. it's this curse, this human frailty or. weakness that like we're not in control. But our superpower is our ability to. respond to that, to find good in it, to. be made better for it. And you you go. through this thing and you realize, "Oh, this is an opportunity to practice. all of the things that I ordinarily take.

for granted, I assume I have." There's. this one Japanese Zen master, actually. the the Zen master from Zen in the Art. of Archery. And he's at the end of his. life, he's he's dying and he he he goes. to like urinate in the snow and it's. red. He's like bleeding, he's dying and. his students are alarmed. He goes, "This. too is practice." All of these things. that we experience, that we didn't want. or we thought they should go a different. way, they're actually the opportunity to. practice the way or the logos, as the.

Stoics would call it, in the way it's. actually meant to do. If we choose to be. present, recognize it and take that. opportunity. instead of fighting it or resenting it. or wishing it were otherwise. Even I. love that point that you made that that. even that was practice. Yeah. That is beautiful. Like that's. that's magical. Like that idea that even. in that worst scenario at the end of all. of it, it was still practice. And if we. could only wrap our head around that, because I think we still think of. practice and performing, practice and.

arrival, practice and the end, we still. see it as separate and and there is. nothing that's separate. Like. that tree outside that's huge is still. growing and being nourished. It's just. you don't see it anymore. And I almost. sometimes what I do with clients is I'll. give everyone a seed and I'll ask them. to plant it and take care of it. And that's like an old way of just. learning growth, because it's so painful. to be watering something every day and. not seeing it grow, only to realize it.

is growing. Or I remember something they. gave us in the monastery was like they. gave us this rope, it was like this. really old rope, and it was already tied, and we were. asked to untie it. And it's like most of. us spent the whole of the first day we. got it trying to untie it and failing. Yeah. Only by like day 21 to realize all. we had to do is pull it a little bit. every day and hopefully it would unravel. because it was so tight. And so even if. you sat there all day, you would just.

you'd go mental and you wouldn't get. achieve anything else. Right. Yeah, it's. it was the willful will, right? It's. like wanting it a certain way, needing. it a certain way, trying to force it as. opposed to stepping back and letting it. be what it is. It's like the way our. mind works. Whatever is happening now, you will look back on sometime in the. future as formative to who you become, right? And yet in this moment all we're. doing is trying to make it something. other than it is, right? Like we will.

look back on COVID and see the the good. in it, the lessons that came from it, the reminders it gave us, the weird. experiences we had, the connections, the. all of that. We'll look at that. But in. that moment, all we're thinking about is. when this will be over, whose fault it. is, you know, what it's cost us, right? Freud says in in retrospect, the. struggle will strike you as most. beautiful. But it seems it's such a it's such a. shame, so unnecessary to deprive. yourself of understanding the beauty of.

it now. Certainly perspective adds to. it, allows you to see it differently. But what if you could just not feel. guilty, worried, anxious, resentful, like you know in the future this will be. a story, right? You'll you'll learn. But you could give yourself. the gift of at least some of that now by. accepting it and just seeing it as what. it is in front of you, that it's. practice. Yeah. Yeah. And the And the. challenge I guess is that because we've.

not had an experience. maybe in our early childhood or in our. teens where we saw that, where it was. like we went through a difficulty, we. built discipline, and we got over it or. we learned from as you're saying, I find. that a lot of people have experienced. difficulty but then they were given. comfort or shelter or the difficulty was. somehow removed or left so you never got. the opportunity to build the discipline. muscle if that makes sense. Like my my. wife will love to talk about like for.

her she went through a difficulty like. her parents would come and save the day. Yeah. Right? Someone would swoop in and. solve the issue. Her sister would do her. homework for her. And so as that. happened more and more and more it. created this behavior of someone who. will save the day that I don't need to. build a discipline around this. Obviously saving is coming from a good. place. The other thing we do is we tell. it's so bad that that happened to you. I'm so sorry. You're this victim, right? Like. the first year of COVID they would. describe for kids that this was like a. lost year.

And I just remember thinking like how. That language, yeah. patronizing but. also self-fulfilling. that was for kids. Like. uh when I would talk to my grandparents. or old people that lived through the. depression or the Second World War. which were by the way a lot longer than. COVID, they weren't like oh it was a. lost time. It was a transformative. formative experience that in retrospect. made them who they were that maybe even. if you'd asked them if they would have. wanted things to be different they would.

have said no. And we have the power to. to transform whatever we're going. through into that thing. So yeah, by. rescuing someone you're depriving them. of that thing but also by telling them. that there's no there's nothing in this. thing that it's indisputably. inarguably bad is to deprive them of the. agency, the perspective, the gift that. they have in front of them if they. choose to see it that way. And we should. emerge from this period the very least.

as you said like if you haven't been. through stuff like this before, you just. lived through an event of historic. proportions. Like you just lived through. an. that your kids and your grandchildren, future generations will marvel at. And. you emerged unscathed, maybe even. improved in some ways. Like you you. should emerge from this with a real. sense of what you're capable of enduring. and surviving and adjusting towards. And. that should give you a lot of confidence. as you wake up and you experience things.

that. are so microscopic compared to that. thing. Yeah. Right? And and you should. feel armed with a certain set of weapons. or tools that maybe you didn't have. before. Like you've been knocked around. and you didn't get knocked down. That's. That's powerful. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and in my own little way it's like. in while I was going through my surgery. it was exactly that where it's like I. can either sit here and think this is. the worst because it did feel like the. worst. For someone who's active, always. on planes, and always traveling, always.

working, to to be completely off and it wasn't. even restful because it was painful. Like it wasn't restful time. Everyone's. like, "You didn't work for a month. It. must have been amazing." I was like, "Well, no, I was in pain.". Yeah. But the idea that my mind at the. time was like, "This is the worst. I. hate this. And when's it going to be over?" Right? Which is the same as COVID, which is the. same as anything. Like those are the. three thoughts that go through my head. pretty much, whether it's surgery, COVID, or anything else that's going on.

And having to reframe those thoughts in. the moment. Yeah. made it become a really beautiful. process at the time, and now with a. sense of gratitude for it having moved. on. But that's what I'm hearing from you is. like you will reflect Well, hopefully. you'll reflect afterwards, but there is. a bit of reconfiguration that has to. happen at the time. Yeah, there's a. story about Phil Jackson when he was the. coach of the Lakers. He gets this back. surgery. Super bad back surgery. And he. can't stand on the sideline. He has to. sit in a a And the way they had him sit.

it's like a a row back. And so suddenly. all the the things that he's comfortable. with as a coach are not possible. He's. not able to pace the sidelines, get up. in people's faces, intervene, direct. people. He just has to sit back and just. to watch. It's like the antithesis of. his coaching style. And yet, and he's a. sort of a Zen Buddhist guy sage guy, he. realizes that this is practice. That he. he realizes that now the team's having. to come to him. Now the team's having to.

solve some of the problems. He's having. to explore a different way of. communicating. He's having to. communicate verbally better than. physically. It's a way to change, adjust. He's forced to do it differently. and thus learns some things he wants to. continue doing differently. Now realizes. he was taking for granted certain things. that are actually super important, right? And so you can always take from. this, like it's this forced lifestyle. experiment. Just see it as that, right? Like COVID, the biggest forced lifestyle.

experiment in human history. Things that. people said were impossible had to. become possible. Remote work, you know, e-commerce, all these things. And then you want to throw that away by. saying, "I can't wait for things to go. back to normal." Right? It's like. normal's what caused this, right? Normal. was you before you learned the things. that you've learned in that intervening. time. And for COVID, for for Phil. Jackson's back surgery, insert whatever. disruptive event you're undergoing in.

your life. Yeah. You don't want things. to go back to how they were. You want. them to go to a new place where you have. the old perspective and the new. perspective fused into something new. When when Marcus Aurelius says the. impediment to action advances action, what stands in the way becomes the way, the Zen expression is the obstacle is. the path. Same east-west coming to the. same idea. It's like this thing has. opportunities inside it to make you. better should you choose to accept them. Yeah. And and that's I like. It's not. the simplistic idea of And And I'm.

always trying to address this. It's not. the simplistic idea of look for the. positive in the negative, right? Like. that's not what we're saying here. This. isn't the idea of like, "Oh, there's a a. a beautiful side to this." That's not. the point. Let's Let's get into that a. bit because I feel like people kind of. simplify and go, "Oh, no, that just. Yeah, we'll just look for the silver. lining." Which is not what we're saying. Well, do you know the Stockdale Paradox? No, tell me. So, James Stockdale, he. studies Stoic philosophy and then he's. shot down over Vietnam. He's. And he's taken prisoner. He's been 7. years horribly tortured in this.

Vietnamese prison camp. Afterwards, he's. speaking to Jim Collins who wrote who. writes Good to Great. to Great. And and. he formulates what becomes known as the. Stockdale Paradox. Jim Collins says, "Who has the worst trouble in the prison. camp?" And Stockdale says, "Oh, that's. easy. The optimists." Right? The people. who thought, "I'm going to be out by. Christmas. I'm going to be out by the. spring. This isn't going to be hard.". When Stockdale's parachuting into this. camp, he says, "I am leaving the world. of technology and entering the world of. Epictetus." He says, "It's going to be 7. years at least." But he said He said,

"The first step is I had to. unflinchingly accept the reality of my. situation, which is that I might not get. out, which is that I'm probably going to. be tortured, which is that I'm not in. control, which is that there is so much. unknown pain and suffering ahead. I have. to accept that. This is not going to be. fun. This is not going to be easy." He. says, "But simultaneously, I said to myself, "If I get out, I want to have transformed this into.

something that in retrospect I would not. have traded away." That's the paradox of. what we're talking about. Stuff happens. Life gets in the way. You lose someone. Your company goes bankrupt. The market. shifts, you know, a natural disaster. Your life can get flipped upside down. at a moment's notice. You have to. unflinchingly accept the reality of that. situation, the unfairness, the. unexpectedness of it, your blamelessness. or your blameworthiness for it. And then. simultaneously go, "Okay,

I'm not saying this is wonderful, that. I'm glad it happened, but I can make. choices now that derive positive. benefits from this, that make me better. for having gone through this." And I I. was at the beginning of the pandemic in. the middle of opening this bookstore. I. sunk my life savings into opening this. bookstore that by the time it was ready, it was impossible to open. It was. looking like this enormous failure,

mistake, you know, like albatross around. my neck. And I I wrote this note card to. myself and I have a picture of it cuz I. took I wrote it to myself, I was. thinking about every day, and I took the. picture in front of the bookstore. Uh. and I just wrote to myself, I said, "2020 is a test. What make you a better. person or a worse one?" Right? I have no. idea whether the bookstore will work. I. have no idea where things are going. I. have no idea what life is going to look. like. What I control inside that is to I. emerge from it a better person, right?

More community-minded, a better spouse, a better thinker, a better writer, more. patient, more self-aware. Those are the. things I control within it. And so, when. we say the obstacle is the way, we're. not like, "Oh, it's great this terrible. thing happened to me." But you're saying. what I took from this terrible thing. Or. maybe you're trying to strip the labels. all together, but you're saying what I. took from this was positive I made from. it. That's the paradoxical. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great way to I'm so. glad you went into that because yeah, I've heard the example in the same way.

of when there were soldiers who said, "We'll be home by Christmas.". Yeah. They their hope was shattered. Yeah. because they weren't home by. Christmas. And whereas the people who. said, "We'll figure out a way to get. home, and if we get home, we'll see our. family." And. that person was more likely to be able. to deal with the fact that it didn't. happen by this time. And I think. I think that's become our obsession with. controlling time. Yeah. Is partly where. that comes from where it's like we want. this done by this time.

Yeah. And then whether it's positive or. difficult when it doesn't happen, we're. completely demoralized, right? Like it's. almost like it's all over just because. it didn't have happen by an arbitrary. date. You're setting yourself up for. disappointment or frustration or. resentment or despair by attaching to an. outcome that's not yours. If you get. lucky, sure you'll feel wonderful. But. if you work for years on a book and. success or failure of it was did it win.

awards? Did it sell lots of copies? Did. your parents read it? You know, those. are things that are not in your control. But if it was I understand this better. than when I started. I am more confident. than I was when I started. You know, like I said something I got on the page. what I thought only in my head at the. beginning, right? Like when when when. you move the outcome or the goal to. something that's up to you, you'll.

always win. And I think that's what wise. people do. They're It's not that they're. not ambitious. They are ambitious. But. their ambition is things that are up to. them. And And so when Marcus is saying. better wrestler as opposed to better. philosopher, better friend, whatever, he's shifting from like this external. societal driven thing to this internal. thing that he controls, that he gets to. judge the success or failure on. And. it's not so quantifiable, either. It's.

something deeper, more human, more. connected. And so as you shift that, not. only do I actually think you do better. work, but you are increasing your. chances of feeling good about yourself. at the end of that. Yeah, and I think. the challenge Ryan though is that today. we want both, right? We want the We want. the feeling of I did something that was. true to me and it resonated with a lot. of people or or whatever that means, right? Like and I feel like that's where.

where everyone kind of gets stuck. because it's like. you know, when especially when people. watch people do what they love and it. gets received well, it's like, "Oh, well, I want to do that, too.". Where do you think people go wrong in. that journey because like what are the. mistakes we make on that path? Because I. feel like that's pretty much where where. people are headed. Well, yeah, I mean, I. think we're sometimes not honest. We're. like, "I'm just I want this album to be. true to who I want to be, my artistic. expression, blah, blah, blah." That's. why you made all these sort of.

individualistic decisions, but deep down. you have this sort of secret lie, which. is that you're actually judging yourself. on where it lands on the Billboard. charts, right? So, that's the worst of. both, right? Cuz you're not going, "Well, what do I need to do to be. commercially successful?" And I'm. consistently judging myself on whether. it was commercially successful or not. You're You've set yourself up for. maximum disappointment. But, if you can. say, "Look, here my goal is to do my absolute best. My goal here is to get to the truth of.

what I'm saying, to express my in What. What's true inside here." And that's. what I'm going to focus on and I'm not. going to waste any time on these other. things. I actually do think, I'm sure. you found this, is that that does make better work. It. makes truer work. It makes more. authentic work, more relatable work. It. It actually does make a better product, but only if you are fully and honestly. and deeply committed to doing it. It. can't be like, "I'm making the. charitable donation. I'm doing it. anonymously,

but I still hope everyone sees how. wonderful I am." You know what I mean? It It's You can't have your cake and eat. it, too. Yes, exactly. And and I think. it goes back to what you were saying a. few moments ago, where it's like you. have to accept the reality, which. includes your own intention. Like I know. that I like creating things that are are. true to me, but are commercially. successful. That is important to me, is. a value of mine, and I'm okay with that. Because I don't want to lie about those. things to myself at all, because.

I enjoy the idea of creating thoughts. and ideas that can affect lots of. people. Like that that is something that. gives me a sense of. feeling that I've understood an idea, and been able to communicate it well. enough. I I guess what I'm saying is. that it comes back to what you were. saying at the beginning, that I don't. set out to write a commercially. successful book, or launch something. commercially. Like that isn't what I. used set out to do. Set out to. understand, articulate, communicate with. myself, and write an incredible book.

And then that leads to that. But at some. part of that process, you have to think. about the sharing of it. Yeah, of. course. And I've learned a lot from you. in this regard. Like you're not helping. yourself or your ideas by rejecting. what makes them accessible, or. shareable, or turning your nose up at. this tool or that tool. Like look, like. when I want to learn about an idea, I. want to read long-form books about it. That's the medium that I'm comfortable. in. I don't think TikTok. But millions.

of people do think TikTok or Instagram. And to turn your nose up or close your. heart off to those people because. they're not like you, is not just. snobbish, but if you actually care about. the ideas, it's selfish. And and so I. don't think they're mutually exclusive, but I also think if you're on those. platforms, and you're letting the. algorithm decide what you do and don't. do, you are sacrificing the whole reason. you became a creator in the the place.

Correct. Absolutely. And I think that's. the that's the balance, right? It's like. there's there's people who just. completely sell out for the algorithm. And then there's the selfish creator or. the snobbish creator on the other end. who thinks they're too cool. Yeah. Like. it's kind of like this badge of honor. where it's like, oh yeah, I don't need. to do that. Like I don't care about And. And I'm like that that defeats the whole. point because I'm hoping this book was a. compassionate expression of service, hopefully. And maybe it wasn't. Maybe it. would just was a selfish arrogant move. of professing your ideas and that's like.

the best thing about it. And so you have. sellouts on one end and you have selfish. on the other end. And to me like service. is kind of in the middle where it's like. service means I understand people's. needs and interests and concerns and. where they're at. But I also have to. serve them what's most beneficial. Well, it's like you meet people where they. are. Yeah. And And like. it there's almost a greed to it. It's. like, well, I wrote it in a book. If you. want to hear it, you can buy it, right? Well, what if they're not ready for. that? What if they're too busy for that? What if they already did buy it? But. they just need a reminder of it, right?

And so there's different just in the way. that like, look, I also read in English. That's the only language that I speak. But I don't turn up my nose at all these. different translations. I go, oh yeah, there's a process. These ideas get. translated in those languages and they. reach people who otherwise wouldn't have. consumed it. Yeah. Yeah. And understanding that. different people have different native. languages. Some people like audiobooks. Some people like podcasts. Some people. like. this social network or that social. network. And that by thinking that, you. know, one is superior to the other. In.

fact, you should be translating your. work in all these different areas. Long. form, short form, audio, video, text, what you should be everywhere that's. that's possible. And understanding that. the win is that the ideas are reaching. people and helping them in their life. If some of those things translate to. sales or followers, great. But like I. always think about like again, what is. success? At the end of the day, like if. your thing sold zero copies but it.

changed the world, you'd be like that. was that that was a win. So, why don't. you just do the stuff that changes the. world and trust again, trust the process. that you'll probably be able to make a. living. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and most. things that do change the world or have. an impact started non-commercially, right? Like in that sense of especially. creation or ideas, I mean uh maybe not. businesses, but but ideas. Like when. when I started creating content, even. the first few interviews I did with you, like I did I mean that Nasdaq that whole.

Nasdaq I never got paid for that whole. series. I was interviewing authors every. week because I was fascinated by the. idea that I get to sit down with people. that I find interesting. You're also putting in your hours. You're getting good at this thing. Exactly. And you're getting good at it, you're enjoying it, you get to meet. awesome people. Uh and even even when we. did the show at HuffPost, it was like it. was. I was leading the show of what kind of. show we wanted it to be. It wasn't like. it was already set up. And so, yeah, I. look back and I think like all stuff. that had an impact and grew was always.

from that deep intention, pure intention. of I want to create something that will. hopefully help people have these. conversations and that was what it was. for me. I felt when I started creating. content, there weren't there were so. many people who had deep thoughtful. conversations offline, but there was no. spaces online really to have those or. there wasn't a piece of content you'd. send to your friend and be like, "Did. you see this? Like have we talked about. this?" And I wanted to create an excuse. for people to have more meaningful. thoughtful conversations based on ideas.

I mean, look, I think at the end of the. day it's like you create a lot of value. and if you can capture a small. percentage of it, you're good, right? Like I think about Craigslist, like the. vast majority of stuff on Craigslist has. been free since the very beginning. And. yet Craigslist still makes a billion. dollars a year in revenue. Like when you. create a lot of value, I create so much. content and like the only part that is. not free are the books, right? And the. books fund that work and then that work. also funds the books. It's you you're. creating kind of a flywheel of stuff. I.

was thinking about one of my books that. that hasn't sold as well as the other. books. Which one is it? Lies of the. Stoics is different than my other books, but I personally use and then also have. reused stuff that I learned while. writing that book almost every single. day. So like the monetization, you know, to use that word, the value creation. there was a personal one. And the book. has done extremely well by like any sort. of standard, but like the primary.

beneficiary was me. And again, if you whatever you're doing, you can say, "Look, the primary. beneficiary of this is me having gone. through it, changing, developing, learning.". And then the byproduct is that I paid my. rent or that like, you know, this. happened. Then then you've you've won. and all the stuff that's out of your. control is the extra. Yes. That's where. you want to be. I can't agree more. And and that. requires just so much. I think that.

requires refining of the intention. It. requires having a. sense of belief and confidence. I think. I think for me it was the other and and. for you too I from from your journey. that we've talked about before like. I spent 10 years doing this without any. followers or without any commerciality. to it anyway because it was all offline. And it was speaking to rooms of five to. 10 people if they showed up. And so it. was like for so long I was doing it. without any care of how far it went. because it was just so powerful. It was.

so beautiful to live in that world of. even if I had one meaningful. conversation with someone after an. event, that would make my day. Like I'd. talk about it for weeks. Let me ask you. this cuz I've been thinking about it. lately. The work that you're doing now. or that I'm doing now is the result of. work you did a long time ago. It's a. lagging indicator of sacrifice and. commitment and study and practice from. however long ago. Sometimes what keeps me up at night is I. go. but 10 years from now, 15 years from.

now, am I putting in the work doing the. stuff now that will pay off then? And. how do you know? How do you know if if. success is this lagging indicator or. growth is this lagging indicator of. commitment now? How can you be sure that. you are paying your dues? Yes, I'm so glad you said that because I. literally just I've been talking to my. team about a few things that we're. doing. I've literally asked us to find. three new coaches. Like I've I've. literally gone, I've always learned. through one-to-one coaching or. mentorship. Like that's my favorite,

apart from books, that is my favorite. way of learning. Uh and especially when it comes to. self-transformation. So I love ideas. through books, but when it comes to me. actually changing, I'm better when I'm. working with one person and getting. mentorship or coaching. So you're. thinking about who are you who are your. teachers to get you to the next level, level you might not even know exists. yet. Correct. And so I'm I'm trying to. identify those people right now. So when. I was a teen, I was reading Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Steve Jobs, right? Like well, Steve Jobs a bit later. actually, but Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. Like that's who I was reading.

at 16 years old. Sure. They were hugely. uh. formative in my ideology in so many. ways. And then in my 20s, obviously I. lived with the monks. So that was hugely. that. And then went to public speaking. school when I was 11 years old. So that. has that has lasted far too long and. needs to be refined again. Uh and and so. yeah, I completely agree with you. I. look at all the skills I have today and. I go, where do they need to be refined? And then I look at, well, what are the. things I'm missing out on because I'm. not exposing myself. Now, I do think. that I do find having the podcast very.

fortunate because I do get to sit down. with a lot of people that I seek. mentorship from in an informal sense and. then I can be like, oh, I'm really going. to do a deep dive on that person's book, or. Yeah. Like Gabor Maté was just on. Yeah. He's amazing. Like, you know, and. and people have known about him for a. long, long time. This was the first time. I interviewed him, but I'm like now. doing a backwards reading of all of his. books. Sure. And so I love that, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like what rabbit holes are. you falling down? What sort of new It's. like a great athlete. It's like, "Well,

what am I adding to my game this off. season?". Totally. And like how do you not get. complacent. and coast? Cuz you could be coasting for. a long time and not realize. skills, yeah. that your skills are your. speed is slowly decreasing before and. then it's it's too late. Yeah. That's. such a good point. And and I think the. thing that hit me there what you just. said is just it's also what skills do I. need that I'm not trying to see the. results now. Like what is something I'm. happy to let kind of simmer and build. and just organically grow rather than.

like I'm going to learn this skill. because next week we're going to launch. this thing. Like that's not what I'm. talking about. Well, all the things you were talking. about that made you who you were, those. were never means to an end because the. end was inconceivable, right? Like none. of it didn't even exist. Absolutely. But somehow it was the perfect like. training montage for who you became. And. how do you make sure the montage is. continuing as opposed to this once in a. formative thing and then, you know, every once in a while I'll do a talk and. like it's the person before me you're.

like, "Oh, you've been doing this a long. time the exact same way and you you. stopped. You stopped and you don't you. You don't want that. Yeah, exactly. And I and I think partly. that's also me allowing my At least for. me, and I'm only talking about myself, but I I think this is helpful for. people. I think you have to allow yourself to. become different things. And giving yourself permission to follow. that bliss, as Joseph Campbell would. say, because. right, for example, when I when I wrote. Think Like a Monk, that was uh.

the kind of end and beginning of a new. journey in my life. Like I was kind of. encapsulating what I've learned over the. last. 15 years, and then it was like, "Well, now I'm in a new space. Like I'm a. married man now. I'm I'm I'm a business. person. I'm a I'm a I'm so many more. things." And so it was almost like me. saying, "Okay, well, I'm going to put. this wrapper on this right now." And now. my next book's all about love. And. there's loads of people going, "Jay, like why are you writing about love? Like why" And I was like, "Cuz I'm. fascinated by love. Like And I'm okay. with answering that question.

Yeah. of why love. I don't want to. continue to write books. I mean, by the way, the love book is. full of wisdom I learned during my time. as a monk. Of course it is. But the. point is that I don't want to be defined. by that, and I don't want to limit. myself to any human experience, because. then I'm basically saying I have to be. this, and that's what performers do. I. have to play this character for the rest. of my life, and then you get typecast in. your own life, and you don't let. yourself And I'm like, "Maybe my next. book will definitely not be about love. I know that for a fact my next book's. not about love." But I'm okay with that.

Like I like the idea of. I'm letting myself go in the direction. of whatever I want to become, because. why why would I limit it now? Well, we. talked about like, you know, cranking. the shower handle, that that's a muscle, right? My first book was about. marketing. I could have sold my next. book about marketing, my next book about. marketing. I could be still doing that. I could still be speaking about that. first book. And when I went to my. publisher and I was like, you know, I. want to write about this obscure school. of ancient philosophy. They were like, "What?" You know? They were like, "How's. half sound?" You know, they gave me half.

what I got for my first book. But that's. that muscle. I was. Yeah. like, "I don't care. This is what. I want to do." And so when you cultivate. the ability to to do that hard thing, the challenging thing, the different. thing, the investing in like being bad. at something to get good at something, you think about Tiger Woods, he's. changed his swing three or four times. from the ground up. That's the real. muscle that prevents you from sort of. ossifying or declining. It's the ability. to go like, "Just cuz I'm here doesn't.

mean I'm going to stay here. I want to. try and do something radically new or. different that I I hope will work. commercially, but I know personally I. will emerge right like like let's say. that the the book doesn't work. I'm sure. it will. Let's say it doesn't work, but. you're like hey my my marriage is better. as having done it. That's a win from top. to bottom, right? And then, you know, you take that with you as you go. For me. writing it, I wrote a completely. different book than the one I thought I.

was going to write and I wrote it three. times. And the first time it was too raw. and probably too like it was it was. probably too tough a read. And the. second time it was too shallow. Like it. was totally like not what I would want. to do. And then third time we got the. balance right. It's funny what you said. about earlier like the discipline of. trying to get out of doing things wrong, but the discipline of ambition. Once. you've had one success in anything, most people grip onto it because now. you've had a taste of it.

Yeah. And now you're scared that if you. don't be that person, you will lose it. And I just wouldn't want to live that. way because then you are just acting and. not being. It's like what you think that. having the success, proving yourself. should make you more. courageous, less risk-averse cuz now. you've done it. But in fact, the. opposite is true, right? This is where. courage and discipline are related. Uh it's the opposite. Now you have. something to lose. Now you don't want to.

change, go in a different direction. because the expectation is set with the. first one. So you imagine how scary it is Tiger. Woods. You're like you're the best swing. in golf and you're like but I think it. could be better, but I'm going to have. to go have a bad swing for months to get. to the other side of that. And so the. ability to say I decide whether I'm. successful or not, not the external. results. And that's why I'm willing to. go down this detour, try things. differently, do this. That is that sort.

of key skill and courage and discipline. have to be related. They complement each. other and yeah, like it was come from my. first book came out, it debuted on the. best seller list, it was controver- But. if. who I would be today if I continued down. that road would be a caricature of that. first person cuz I would have been it. would have been a copy of a copy of a. copy of a copy. Instead, I went towards. something that was interesting to me. which opened up another thing that was. interested to and and that like I. wouldn't be who I am had I done the safe. thing. And so all they say all growth is.

a leap in the dark, right? You have to. continually take that leap. And one of. the things I I hope you learn when you. do that is first off, it's not as scary. as you thought. But then sometimes like. it doesn't work. And you go, oh, but I feel great about. it. And then it decouples external. recognition from the internal process. And then you go, yeah, I just do what I. want. I do where it takes me. And a lot. of times it works out, sometimes it. doesn't, but it's called being a creator.

for a reason. You're making something. You're the leader, you're not a. follower. Well said. Ryan, this has been. so much fun uh The best part. diving in with you. We've been talking. for ages. I had no idea where the time. went. Uh but it's been such a joy just. always like just getting into it with. you. And I hope that everyone who's been. listening, I hope you go and grab a copy. of Discipline is Destiny, The Power of. Self-Control. uh by Ryan Holiday. And of course, any. of the other books that we've. recommended before on the show. If you. love this episode, you can go back and.

listen to a ton of other episodes with. Ryan. Uh and again, I hope today's episode I. tried not to do for everyone who's. listening, and you know, I've been. trying this more recently, I tried not. to do a systematic conversation of. breaking down how to build discipline. and which did you know, I I've been. avoiding that kind of hack kind of. conversation recently which I think. you've been really resonating with. because I think sometimes. the penny that needs to drop isn't the. how to it's kind of like the the.

churning of the idea in your own self of. of coming closer to what it truly means. for you and making sense of it. So. that's been my attempt at least and I. hope that's coming through. I hope you. enjoyed this. Please do give me feedback. on on Twitter or Instagram. Tag Ryan and. I both with your greatest insights the. nuggets of wisdom and we'll see you on. another episode of On Purpose. Thank you. everyone. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life. by changing your brain. Everything in.

moderation. Which is the gateway thought to hell. It's the gateway thought to cheating. As. soon as you hear someone say everything. in moderation, they're going to do. something bad for their brain.