Russ ON: Toxic Masculinity, Music & Mental Health: “My Songs Were Cries For Help”

How do you even go about thinking about. what being enough means, especially in a. culture that's comparing and always. putting you up against other people? Yeah, it's so hard for me cuz I think it. does start in childhood and I think it. started with, you know, wanting to meet. the standard that my dad set. And, you. know, my dad, who I love him, and. disclaimer before like this interview. goes more, it's like I love my parents. and. they have done, I think, a great job and. I don't blame them for anything.

Um there's just realities that have. happened that like, you know, there's. experiences that I have that I now have. to deal with and learn from, etc. But my. dad's standard was perfection a lot of. times, you know, and he was very. critical. And so for me, you know, his. metric. it was impossible to meet. I ended up. adopting it as my own, you know, and so. the inner voice for a long time it was. my dad's inner voice of, you know, that's not good enough. Nah, you know,

you got a 92 on the test, if you would. have studied you got a 100, but it's. still an A, but, you know, little things. like that or showing him music early on. or career stuff and just in general, right? And but that inner voice that. used to be his became my own inner. voice. So now like it it becomes this. sort of inner critic that when I go. platinum it's like it doesn't do it. Maybe double platinum will. Maybe triple. Oh, you how much money did you make? 10? Oh, maybe 11 million will make you feel. good. And so you keep chasing the next.

thing thinking that's what's going to. make you feel good about yourself. And. I think um to reference like the Rick. Rubin. interview, I think he mentioned. something where it's like you get the. number one album, you get all this. stuff, and it doesn't do what you wanted. it to do, and you feel emptier than. ever. And I think that's kind of the. place I got to. Was I got the money, the. house, the this, and whatever, and. that's how you know there's really. something missing. Mhm. Because how do you get all that and you. still don't feel good? Mhm.

And it's a really empty feeling cuz most. people in the world think that the. reason why they're not happy and not. feeling enough is all these things that. they'll probably never get. And it's. kind of this beautiful. uh blissfully ignorant place to live. because you just get to like always have. this idea that. nah, I know like I'm going to keep going. towards this and I know this is what's. going to get me happiness. Even though. you'll probably never get it, right? Most people won't ever see a million. dollars or. whatever. But for the people who get in. but and I want no sympathy for like oh,

we don't feel bad for you. You're a. millionaire, get over it. But it's like. when you get everything you thought you. wanted and you still feel empty, you. realize that wow, that was not what I. was supposed to be chasing and there's a. bigger hole here and now I need to grow. down. Mhm. You know, and I need to look internal. because external didn't do it. Mhm. And that's what Oasis is all about. on the album, right? What is Oasis the. closest track to that feeling or? So Oasis was sort of this fool's. paradise is what the um idea behind that.

song was. It was like I got the house, the life, everything on surface looked. like okay, you did it. And. internally though I was still a mess. I. was joking with you you know off camera. like last time we talked, you know, I. was 30 lbs overweight. It was just. proportioned nicely so it didn't wasn't. [laughter]. it wasn't like too big in any one place. [gasps]. But I was 30 lbs overweight. I was. drinking too much. I was eating too. much. I had no discipline over my. thoughts, my eating habits. I had no.

discipline over my sexual energy, things. like that. So it was really like I was a. glutton, you know? But the way that is. dressed up sometimes, you're a rock. star, you're a king, you know? And so. Oasis is about on surface yeah, you're. eating good, you're you know, you're. you're gaining weight but cuz you're. getting money and you're eating good, and you're sleeping with random women, and drinking, but it's all good because. look, another plaque just came in, and. more money came in, another sold-out.

show. Um and it was sort of poking like. that whole song is sort of like poking. fun at me because I'm in my little. oasis. I'm distracted by like look at my. house, look at my life. What like. I love what you just said. You're like. you're distracted. Yeah. by the gold, and you're distracted by. the shining lights and the bright things. and the plaques. Mhm. When you're that distracted, how do you. open up your eyes? Like how do you even. get to a point now where you're able to. look back and go, I was distracted, now. I'm a bit more awake, and I'm working on.

this stuff? Because I can imagine that. it gets so loud. You're a rock star, you're a king, you're all these things. And then all of a sudden, you've got to. kind of like quiet that down and go, but. I'm still not happy. How do you get that. breakthrough? Because I feel like we're. all the best at setting ourselves up for. failure, and we're all the best at. avoiding advice when it's good. Like I. know. when I'm wrong because when my wife says. something and I know she's right. Yeah. And I don't want to admit it because I. know she's right, and that's what But.

it's that awareness piece is so hard. Yeah. How How did you What was the moment for. you? Cuz you are killing it, you're. still killing it. Yeah. You looked well then to me, you looked. well to me to today. Like you're doing. great. Like right? So And And I really. enjoyed your company last time, and I'm. going to enjoy your company this time. So externally, you could argue well, what's going on with this guy? we get good at masking it. That's part. of like, you know, I have a long answer for this, but um. Go on, go for it. First of all, therapy is kind of what.

like. not woke me up, but it helped, but. something I learned in therapy is uh. this idea that, you know, society. measures a man based off of how much. they can carry, how far they can carry. it, and how long they can carry it. And. I think for a lot of men, we have become. professional. hiders of our pain. And so, while I was. {quote} distracted, what woke me up to what was going on was. that there was psychological warfare and.

internal chaos constantly anyway. You. know, I like I would just kept pushing. it down, pushing it down, but I knew it. was there cuz I was pushing it down. And. it just got to a point where I just had. a breakdown one day. It just you push it. down enough and at some point you can't. push it anymore. And it, you know, overflows and it And what I learned is. um. when you're burying it, burying it, burying it, when it does finally just. explode, it's always going to be at the. worst time. And that time came right.

before a European tour that I had. scheduled and I had to cancel it cuz I. was like, my body and spirit and mind. just shut down. I just couldn't even do. it. I couldn't even like go through the. motions of acting like I could perform. and um you know, through therapy and. talking every week you know, and really. really being vulnerable and being honest. with my therapist, which I couldn't wait. for. Like. getting a therapist has been at the top. of my to-do list for like 4 years and I. just never did I never got around to it. cuz I just always once again was like,

do I really need one? Look how good my. life is. Like, nah, I think I'm. tripping. But it just got to this point, man, where I was like, I need to talk to someone cuz I feel. like I'm going insane. Yeah. It's just been so helpful cuz I'm like, Yeah. I want to figure out what's going on. internally. So it's like, well, I don't. know how to fix it. So let's act like it. doesn't exist, you know? I'm so glad you raised this cuz I've. been looking for the person I'm about to. introduce a conversation that I've been. trying to find the right person to have. it with. Yeah. And it just clicked to me in this moment. that you're that person. I'm I.

Like literally. And I think it's such an. important conversation that. I've been trying to navigate. I have it. offline a lot, but I haven't really had. it online. So this would be the first. time that I talk about it here, but it's. like, you just raised that as a man, especially, we're good at masking it. Yeah. And I think men in today's society, being a man in today's society, is such. an interesting time. And you come across. to me as, you know, like you're. and and you can describe in your own.

sense, but you're a confident man, you. know, you're a man's man, I'd I'd I'd say as. well. Like, I don't know how you see. yourself. That's why I don't know how. you see yourself. I was going to ask you. because you you so confidently are like, "Hey man, I need to find help. I went to. therapy.". Yeah. But at the same time, you're a rapper on. stage who's like dropping like the best. bars. And so, I'm like, when you look at. that paradox, I love that because I'm. thinking about what is it that you think. men are struggling with most? And maybe. it's even through your own friends, the. people you hang out with. Like, what do. you think men are struggling with in.

today's society because I don't feel we. talk about that enough with like what. the struggle is. Yeah, I think I mean, so much, but I think I think men are. struggling with being in tune with their. own emotions and feeling safe and. feeling like they have permission from. themselves to feel what they're feeling. because society has told them, "Get over. it." Effectively, you know? And um. I think for me, that's what I did for the, you know,

for the most part. And I think my. generation, little let alone like. generations before me, like we all saw. our dads probably just like get over it. and figure it out and you know, brush. brush the dirt off and and and keep. going. And um. that's what I did and I would just put. little trickles of what I was feeling in. the music. Like, it's so funny, you know, when I had that breakdown, when I finally just was honest with. myself and and got a therapist, I would go back and listen to old songs,

like songs like Nobody Knows or songs. like All to You. And it's like, these. were like such cries for help that I. think made me feel more insane because I. would put them out and [snorts]. they just became songs, you know? And it. sort of downplayed what was really going. on because it's like I take a very. vulnerable real emotion of sadness and. pain and confusion and feeling lost and. don't know what to do and turn it into 2. and 1/2 minutes of music and now it just. becomes numbers on a screen and streams.

and how loud is it at the shows and I. forget, fans forget, people forget, but. most importantly I forget that. oh no, like this was like really what I. was going through. This isn't just like. a a lullaby. Yeah, I think you're right. I feel like. when I talk to people, I feel like men. are feeling a lot of pressure. to be a lot of things. Like to be. successful, to have it together, to have some emotional maturity, figured. out their mental health. And again, you. know, every gender has their own.

pressures that come with it. Right. But I think I know a lot of men who feel. scared to share that pressure because. they feel like you said that they. shouldn't have it. Like they're not. allowed to have that pressure. I think. you're one of the few music guys that. has found a way of intertwining mental. health and music in a way that it's not. cheesy and it's not like corny and it's. not like it comes across like when I. listen to you, I'm just like. God, that's a bar. That's like, you. know, you just it's you can appreciate. it just because it's good music and then.

knowing that you have this conscious. side to yourself. Was that like always. at the forefront of when you got into. music or was it something that evolved. with time because of your journey. because. I think it's quite it's quite a hard. balance to talk about meaningful stuff. Yeah. in a way that doesn't come across as. cheesy and corny. So how how do you how. have you found a way of being able to do. that? Yeah, I think I always was looking for. answers, you know? And I think I always, as a consumer of music, I always liked. substance and lyrics and things that I. could, you know, things that meant.

something, you know, things that maybe. could help me. And as an artist, when I. wanted to make my own, I was trying to. find answers. Like my creative side was. trying to piece together these other. sides of me, like what was going on with. my family, with my friends, with my. relationship with my career. Like the. creative side of me would come in and be. like, maybe this means that. Maybe what. you're feeling means this. Maybe you. know, and like Like I said, there's like. all these little like Easter eggs, I. guess, throughout my catalog of me.

trying to figure it out. And so I think. I was just naturally and am naturally a. curious person. and an ambitious person. And so like And. ambitious in the sense that I really. want to figure out what is going on with. me. [laughter]. Like I want to know why I think the way. I think, where that came from. And I. think in the past, it's funny when. you're like, you're a confident man, etc., etc. I was omnipotent. And I've. learned that that's not confidence, you. know. That's insecurity. And you know, I.

because This I mean, this is so so. multi-layered, but it's funny your shirt. says imperfections cuz it really stems. from me being a perfectionist, right? So. like, me being a perfectionist, there's. no room for me to not be right. There's. no room for me to not know what like not. act like I know everything and what's. going on. And I got being a. perfectionist from like the standard. that my dad set, which ended up becoming. my own standard. So early on in my. career, I had this omnipotence where.

like I knew everything, everything I was. doing was right. And I felt like I had. to act like that because if you're a. perfectionist, there is no room for. criticism. Perfectionists are trying to run from. criticism. And help is coded as criticism. to a perfectionist. So I didn't want any. help, and if you tried to help, I took. it as a critique and it threatened my. idea of being a perfectionist. Wow. You know? So like I'm trying to figure. out the answers, so like. Dude, I One thing you said to me last. time I've quoted this. so many times in interviews when I get.

asked questions about like oh what was. one of your favorite takeaways and it's. from our interview and it's you said. that when you sometimes get in the. studio at that time you were like I get. rid of all my friends so I can be in. there alone and make weird sounds that I. wouldn't make when people are in the. room because I might be scared of what. they think and I've said that to so many. people and everyone's always like quite. blown away or taken aback because I. guess it's not a common thing that. artists do and and it stayed with me for. so long but I was interested by what you. just said like how did your immediate I.

guess your immediate circle I'm assuming. you're around people that you love but. how do you think then the wider circle. responds to you saying things like I. need help therapy is good for you and. but like you know like do you have do. you feel like the wider circle goes. automatically like do you think the. world's got to a place now where we're. like yes Russ that makes sense you're. right or do you still have people around. you going no you don't need therapy man. you just need to go smoke or blow some. cash or like yeah like what what because. you come from the rap music world I.

wonder what do you hear? Um I think my friends like my immediate. circle my friends were all very. supportive. My family was supportive as. well but. they're obviously like what's going on. because my identity has been attached. when it comes to my family my identity. has been attached to helping them. You know that's how I felt safe that was. the role I played and I've never asked. for help I've never received help I've. never come off like I needed help and so. when they saw that I needed therapy I'm.

canceling tour it's like 911 in my house. you know as far as like my family. And um. so they were just like really concerned. um but I think as far as the world's. concerned I do think the world is more. open and receptive to the idea of. men needing help and that's okay and. even if they're not open to it, that is. naturally where this is going. Like I. just feel like the pendulum has to swing. at some point and this whole idea that.

men have to just be like, you know, military men who show nothing, no. emotions and like figure it out and. don't ask for help and we do it. ourselves. It's like. that is not sustainable, you know, it's. just not. Men need to communicate and. collaborate with each other and you. know, not feel so alone. How have you found the reaction to that. from like straight women? Do straight. women find men more or less attractive. or good partners based on that kind of.

approach and vulnerability? Like. I think it depends on the woman. And I. think a lot of times there's great women. out there who will respond well to that. and there's women who won't. And I think. a lot of times with men, you know, they. are scared to show that vulnerability. because of what a lot of women have. displayed, which is like I'm not. attracted to you. That part, yeah. And it's like, you know, I said on I. said on enough on Santiago, some women. looking at you lesser if there's tears. on your cheek, but if there's tears.

tattooed, that same girl is a freak. So. they're attracted to the pain unless. they hear the pain speak. So it's like. it's really interesting cuz when you. when you talk to when you talk to women. when you Thank you. But it's like when. you talk to women and you like kind of. see where their heads at, you see that they kind of like a lot of. women want this sort of rough and rugged. guy who's like he's tough and all these. things, but like you don't want him to talk. about it cuz now he's soft. But it's. like so you want him to have some pain.

Because that's what makes him the rough. and rugged, you know, but you just don't. want to hear about it. And so where does he go then? It's oh, so you just want him to be quiet. But. then you're wondering why he can't open. up to you. Oh, well, he just doesn't. open up to me. Which one is it? This. isn't Build-A-Bear. You know what I. mean? Like, and I feel women, too, who. it's like dudes want the girl who does. it the. That's why it's like find someone that's. compatible with you and gets you and.

rock out and forget about the rest. Yeah, but I love the way you just I. mean, the lyric it speaks for itself, but that is summed up so well. And by. the way, everyone who's listening, I'm. not trying to take sides or. Yeah. you get where I'm coming from. Like, I'm. just trying to come from a place of like. where we It's exactly what Rush has. said. Like, we want someone to be tough. but without the pain, without talking. about the pain. And it's like that's. just not real. It doesn't exist. The. idea that someone is tough. and hasn't been through pain is. non-existent.

Yeah. And at some point that person is going. to need to express or connect or. collaborate, as you said, either with. you or other people about their pain. This also applies to women. It applies. to every gender that people who've been. through pain are going to have stories. to tell. Yeah. And if you want someone tough, chances. are that they've got grit and resilience. because they've had massive loss in. their life or So, I think you just. summed it up. That is exactly what I was. trying to get to. pain is a prerequisite for being a. tough, hardened man. Mhm. Hardened from what?

You know, hardened by what? It's pain, experience. So, it's like. I just I do think it's really. interesting for um the group of women. who want vulnerability and openness. emotionally from men who they also. almost shame into thinking that. keep your pain to yourself, though. Yeah, and then there's the other side I. find I have a lot of friends who are. like, my man doesn't open up, right? Like, I have a lot of friends who are. like, look, I want to be there for him. Like, I'm ready to listen to him. Like,

I'm I want him to be more open about his. feelings. Well, cuz men are scared that if they. do, uh wow, never mind. This is. unattractive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, cuz it goes against what we as men. have been taught makes a strong man. It's not personal to you, it's how. society has set us up. We've been brainwashed, you know? Would you say yours is just you're so. seeking the answers? Like what gave you. the courage to break that as someone. who's a stage performer who's crushing. it, who has who has actually everything. that 99% of men want? Yeah. What gave you the Was it courage or was.

it just like, I just need this, like, you know? Yeah, it was out of desperation, to be. honest. And also, I think like being. isolated from society plays like a part. in it. Like, I'm not out and about. I'm. not trying to be on the scene and make. friends. I like there's a part of like. being in my bubble that sort of gives me. that safety net of like, okay, if I'm. vulnerable, it's like, who does that really I'm not. worried if that girl or this person is. going to feel a way. Like, it's kind of. just me, you know, that has to deal with.

this. I feel like people struggle with that. even if they're not in entertainment. Yeah. People get glued to social media, they. get addicted. How were you keeping. distance when you're so interconnected. to the industry in one sense? it's also just a testament though to my. fans. I think I've had like I'm really. fortunate to have the kind of fans that. I do that. are actually supporters of me. And from. the beginning, I've tried to be as. authentic as I was in that moment. And. I've tried to be vulnerable and.

introspective. And I think. all of that played a part in when I did. have to cancel tour and when I have let. fans in on like the journey of mental. health and therapy, them being open to. it because. this isn't coming out of complete left. field as far as the introspection and. the vulnerability. I'm a vulnerable. artist. Mhm. I never was like that worried like if my. male fans would be like, oh, we're out. Because it's like. y'all are singing Losing Control. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like y'all are.

singing love songs and heartbreak songs. So, [laughter]. you know what I'm saying? Straight up. And it's like everyone's at a different. place in their journey and like however. like wherever you're at is fine. Yeah, I remember that when I was when I. was a teenager when I thought I was when. that's when I thought I was cool. Right. like I was that kind of person that. didn't understand how someone could get. depressed because I didn't get it. I was like that four years ago. [laughter]. Yeah, and it's like you have that. mindset you're like what does that mean, right? Like and then you go through your. own stuff and you're like, "Oh, I get it.

now." And I found that for me I found. that life has this really strange way. of making you go through things that you. thought shouldn't affect anyone. Right. So if you in your head have an. idea of like I don't understand that I. don't know how that affects someone. Life's like just wait. Literally and that's. that has happened [laughter] to me so. many times where and so whenever now I. have that thought I literally catch it. and I go, "Let's get rid of that thought. because let me actually try and be.

curious about it rather than look at it. in a condescending way." Cuz chances are. if I see it in a derogatory way or a. negligent way I'm going to have to. experience it just for life to teach me. that it's real. Yeah. Yeah, I got humbled for sure by um. by that kind of thing where it's like I. realized back to me being omnipotent I. got humbled by it realizing, "Oh, I. don't know everything.". You know? Cuz I thought I'm never going. to get depressed. What does that even. mean? Like what's. you know? And then all of a sudden. you're like, "Okay, so this can happen. to me.". Yeah, describe that for me. What was.

that for you? Like I think you hear and. I think I can ask you this because I. feel like you articulate your thoughts. so well and you really get in there with. what's going on like. so many people have said this, right? This idea of like you get the triple. platinum, you get the money and it. doesn't work. Like what actually and I'm. asking you cuz I feel like you'll get in. there. What is actually not working. about that? Like what is it about that. that doesn't help you feel better or. solve the void? What is it? Why does it. not work? Because I think so many people.

say that but then everyone goes, "Oh, yeah, but you're a millionaire. You can. say that.". Yeah. But let's let's try to help people out. there because I still like if I if I. prefer being financially safe. and. successful in doing what I love. I do. prefer that. Mhm. to when I was close to being broke and. not successful in what I did. Right. I much prefer my life right now. Right. But I also know that the thing that. gives gives me deep meaning and keeps me. going is my purpose. Mhm.

That's connected to my work. Like as. long as I feel I'm positively impacting. people, Yeah. I'm serving people, and I'm using my. voice to make a difference in people's. lives, that is what actually makes me. happy. And then what happens around it. is like the best bonus of all time. Yeah. See, that's a good value to have. though. Is like in good perspective for. me, the plaques and whatever, it not. working is really just because you're. clearly or I was clearly seeking. validation subconsciously and I thought. that. becoming a big artist and plaques and.

all that was going to make me feel. validated and make me feel like I belong. and make me feel approved and make me. feel good enough. And when I got all. that and I still had all of those. issues, that's when I mean by it not. working. And I agree too, like I prefer. my life now than than the alternative, but the hole is still there. And I think at 17 when I started like. really going after this, um I don't know if I had the depth.

in the awareness to know what I was. going after. Like I'm chasing approval. and validation, but um. when I look back, I can pinpoint certain. behaviors and certain times in the. studio or whatever where I was like. where I can tell I wanted people to. validate me. And I want and I thought that rap in the. industry was going to pat me on the. back. You know, and that's kind of what. I talk about in I Love You, Boy, which. is like, you know, I just I replaced my.

dad with the industry. Which is really like wild, right? Because I felt like as a kid wanting. just approval of your dad as a son, you. know, when you don't get it, you can. feel like ostracized kind of and just. like you don't belong and you're not. good enough on and all these things. And. it's so strange that as a white guy, what I chose to pick to replace my dad. to give me approval was a craft that.

I'm not that I'm ostracizing off off. that. You know what I mean? It's like. It's like I picked the hardest thing to. get approval from. Like I replaced my. dad with an industry and started to rap. I wanted praise and acknowledgement and. picked a profession that people who look. like me don't get. You know what I mean? So it's like it. was almost like I guess if I could like. analyze where my head was at when I was. 17, maybe cuz it's like if I could get. approval from this thing that I love, this genre, this lifestyle, this whole.

culture, then I'm officially approved, you know? Because I know how hard it is. to get approval from that. And I don't. know, it just it but it really stems. from once again not having the. self-approval and the self-validation. and thinking that someone else is going. to give it to you. And I remember. talking with my therapist and he was. like, or I think I said like, "Yeah, but you know, if I do get a. number one album or a number and go. number one on the Billboard Hot 100 and.

this person says I'm great, I'm sure. like I'll feel really good." He's like, "You probably will for about 20 minutes. And then I think you'll have your lowest. moment of your life.". You know, and I agree. You know, because when I have gotten. crazy accomplishments, it lasts for not. that long. And I'm right back to like. I'm lower. because that's another thing on the list. that didn't do it. Mhm. That's another thing that didn't fill. the hole. Mhm. You know, Forbes list, nope. Platinum, nope. Buy mom a house, nope.

Like none of it, you know? I see what you're saying and I won't be. I want that to register with people. because. what Russ is doing, which I appreciate, is clarifying the difference. It's great. in and of itself. Yeah. It just doesn't feel the hole inside. Like it doesn't solve the fact that I. don't feel better about who I am and. myself. It's beautiful to buy your mom a. house. I know. That's awesome. Like it's good for her. It's great. Like that that's not the. point. The point is it doesn't change. how I feel. Yeah. about my level of self-worth and.

self-esteem. the point is like if if I thought that. buying my mom a house and making the. Forbes list and going platinum was going. to make me feel validated, approved, and. like I'm good enough, then that's the. mistake. Yeah. Yeah. That's where you're going to feel. emptier than ever cuz you're going to do. that and that's not what's going to do. it, Yeah. you know? What's really interesting for me. listening to you is so I'm I'm kind of. like where you're at with your parents. where I love both my parents and. independently and in the same way. I have a good relationship with both of. them today.

and. but but it wasn't always it wasn't that. way externally. And with my dad. especially, so my dad didn't validate me. or even support me when I was growing. up. Like he would if he turned up to a. swim competition cuz I used to swim a. lot, when I'd look up at the stands, he'd be reading his newspaper. Oh, yeah. So or if I was I played rugby for my. school and it was one of my favorite. things that I made it onto my school's. rugby team. I used to be a lot bigger. growing up. And he did he would never. turn up to support me. And so my dad.

wasn't there and that was really. interesting because at the time it made. me just want to get approval of my. friends and like be cool and whatever. and that leads you to do all sorts of. the dumb stuff. Yeah. But what it ultimately led me to was I. got to make my own rules of what success. were. So not getting his ver- he never. had a of success for me. Right. he almost had didn't have like. this is what you have to be to be. successful. Right. And so I've always seen it as I just got. freedom to define what kind of man I. wanted to be because my dad didn't.

really define what kind of man he cared. I would be. Right. And it's really interesting now cuz when. I look at my relationship with him. today, he's more like a friend than he. is my dad because he wasn't really. fathering me. And I think where I got. really lucky, like this really was was. like one of those moments when you feel. fortunate is I projected that lack of. fatherhood. Mhm. fortunately onto the monks. Oh. So I like because that wasn't what I was. meant to be and I wasn't spiritual and I.

really look at that as like I didn't. have any positive role role models in my. life. I didn't have any positive male. role models in my life. And the monks. were positive male role models and I met. them at when I was 18 years old. important to have. It's so important and the crazy thing. about them is. they don't validate you. Wow. So it was like even more challenging but. it's like you see an amazing role model. who's showing you the right way but is. not trying to falsely validate or. approve you. So you still have to figure. out. You still have to do it [laughter].

yourself. You still have to do it yourself. They're teaching you what you just said, how to do it yourself. Like that it's. still you on your own. You got to live. in your own mind and and when you. realize that it's like, yeah, I live in. my own mind. These are my thoughts. Yeah. What you just said earlier, I either. have to I either am translating my dad's. voice. Yeah. into becoming my voice. Right. or I'm actually going to choose what I. want my thoughts to be. Right. And and that's what they were training. us in. So through so much fortune I got. to that point.

And. even till this day I'm constantly just. practicing that because again I haven't. perfected it. I still get into the place. where you start hearing the noise. It's so funny cuz that's why I ended the. album with just me singing it was you. all along.". Mhm. Cuz all these things I'm chasing, validation, love, approval, patience, all of these things that I have to give. myself. Mhm. And I just I thought that everything and. everyone else was going to give it to. me. Tell me some of the ways you've been. giving it to yourself because you are. getting, like you said, like a lot of.

people get to the point you've got to. when they're unsuccessful. Mhm. So like they wait till the record's now. not getting the downloads and the. streams and like they're not really. winning the stuff and things aren't. going well and then you go, "Oh, this. wasn't it." You're realizing it while. things are hot, right? Like things are. good. You got a new album dropping. The. music sounds great, by the way. I wanted. to say like I I already I was thankful. that your team sent me the album before. and it's like I can't wait to play it. more and more and it I can't wait for. everyone to hear it. Music's awesome. And I just go, "You're winning and you.

realized it." Like what are some of the. things you're doing to validate. yourself? [laughter]. Like what what are you doing? It's like that's what I'm still working. on, you know. What are some of the practices the. habits? I think um you know, it's having good. values is one of them. Uh values that. like. I can control, you know. Uh I think. honoring the gift is important, celebrating myself, and I think. a way that I've celebrated myself, which. makes me feel good about myself, is to. honor my gift. And so for example, like.

going to the gym, for me to lose 30 lb. of fat, not muscle, right? 30 lb of fat. was crazy. Um I did it through shame. Do. you need to lose weight? Did you know? And just talking crazy to myself and it. still worked. But I lost the weight and. I still didn't feel good about myself. I. still had a breakdown, you know. Um and. so now I'm looking at going to the gym. as. I'm celebrating my health and my body. I'm honoring the gift of being alive and. being mobile, you know, and celebrating.

the gift of of my creativity by going to. the studio instead of looking at going. to the studio like, "I need to catch a. hit otherwise I'm a loser. It's like, nah, I'm celebrating myself. Every time I go to the studio, it's a. celebration. That's that's already a great mindset. Yeah, it's better than where I was at. No, but what I think what we don't. realize is even if critical, judgmental, negative motivation works, Yeah. the problem is now that's all you have. in your toolkit. Yes. to motivate yourself.

Right. So when you've lost the weight you. wanted to lose, you're now motivating. yourself still through that criticism, judgment and. Right. like talking down to yourself. And even. with the music, I love what you just. said. You feel so much more abundant. Yeah. when you walk into something and you go, I'm just here because I'm grateful to be. alive. I'm happy to be here as opposed. to. God, if I don't write the next hit. And. I know so many musicians that say that. to me and music is the hardest place. Yeah. And I feel like I have so many people in. my life that are friends that feel that.

pressure because again, like you said, it's the pressure they're hearing from. their management, Right. their team, Their fans. their fans potentially if they're not. connected to them. You're going to. become irrelevant. Yeah. You'll never be as big as so-and-so. Right. Didn't you see what they just did? Like. And so if you don't have that healthy. dialogue internally, and I do think it. is that for me as well. It's like I. spend. I spend so much time alone. just to monitor my internal dialogue. Scary. Because it's the only way.

It's terrible. Because when I'm alone, Yeah. I can truly choose and program the. thoughts in my mind. Yeah. Whereas if I'm constantly surrounded by. people and noise, it's natural that it's. going to seep in. Well, sometimes the noise distracts us. from looking in cuz looking in is scary. That's what I was doing. I think that's the biggest reason why. people don't want to spend time alone. Of course. Especially men. Because like. we, once again, know that or we have. like believed that our emotions are. relevant and ignore them, you know? be.

like just completely avoid feeling. anything and that's what makes you a. man. And so I think spending time alone. in meditation and doing like, you know, personal work is a very like it feels. feminine to men. It feels soft and the. the like something interesting that I. stumbled on is like. how strong of a man are you and how. brave of a man are you if you're scared. to face yourself?

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's the real bravery. Yeah. Sit in a room with yourself. That's like that's courageous. Yeah, I think it goes back to what you. were saying earlier that. it's the perfection and positivity issue. that we keep thinking that everything. has to be like positive and sunny. And when I look inside of myself. I see tons of a dark side and stuff that. I don't want to see. But I also know. that that's not me because of how we. were trained, the idea that.

you know, the concept in all of the monk. teachings is that the sun is always. shining, it's just often covered by. clouds. And so when you look up at the. sky, all you see is the clouds, you. don't see the sun and you think I am the. clouds. So when you look at your. thoughts, you see the cloudy thoughts. and you think I'm darkness. But actually. the sun's always there, it's just you. can't see it and so the light that me. and you are, the light that everyone. who's listening and watching is is. always there, it's just we're just. seeing all the dirt and the clouds and. the rain and the, you know, and we then.

judge it and see as negative rather than. the fact that hey, wait a minute, I'm. just I'm just going to find the light. and I understand that sometimes it's. going to be a cloudy day just like it is. outdoors. Yeah, and that's what led me to feeling. like a fraud. That's That song's amazing. That's what that is is because looking. at the cloud, thinking you are the. cloud. And so then when people give you. a compliment, you're like. they're giving you a compliment on you. being the sun and for me I'm like if. only you knew I was a cloud. I would. look at my shadow self and the parts of.

me that I'm ashamed of. It would make it. impossible for me to receive love and. compliments or anything positive. Also. tied in with feeling like a fraud was me. having to analyze well why did my. parents getting a divorce actually. affect me? Why did the hate coming in. actually affect me? Cuz on surface it. felt so vapid like oh your parents broke. up and people don't like you, big deal, right? But when I through therapy and. through really growing down, that's when. I learned like okay hold on since I was.

a kid, my role and my identity came from. being the savior of my family. emotionally, you know? And I talk about. it on. I love you, boy where my dad was very. reactive and my mom was like fatalistic. and um I was just the one running around. knocking on everyone's door to make sure. like everyone was good after a big fight. or whatever, you know? Cuz I was I was. worried, genuinely worried so the stakes. were super high. They felt like life or. death, you know? Like maybe there was. going to be self-harm or something. And so my identity was tied to saving my.

family and helping them. So when my. parents got divorced, it was the ultimate blow to my identity. of being the savior. It wasn't just like. your parents broke up or you're 23, get. over it. It was like who am I if I if my. parents break up? Who am I if I can't. save us, right? And then with the hate. coming in, I got my self-worth from being approved. and liked by everyone. And so when I got. hate and a lot of it, it wasn't just you.

have haters, get over it. It was who am. I if people don't like me. Mhm. So. it just that's what threw me for a spin. It was I feel like a fraud. That is so deep. Yeah, your identity is. based on the roles you played and if you. can no longer play that role, then who. is what is your identity? And that's where it's hard because that. means going back to what you said. earlier, which was really powerful, is. that your values is the best place to. start because your values is something. you can control. If you only value.

yourself for a role you play for other. people, which you don't control, Right. now that's not your value. Right. And when they break up or it goes. astray, you don't know who you are anymore. That. is. devastating blow. Yeah. Yeah, especially when I didn't know why. I was so upset by it, you know? I was. like, this shouldn't be affecting I'm. 24, 25, like what's the big deal? Yeah. But it just didn't go away and then it. was funny that like the hate and them.

divorcing came at the same time. And now. when I look back, I'm like, this was all. like by design, you know? This was all. to help me grow down. But yeah, it's. like, you know, when you when you've. gotten your identity from a role that. you've been playing for so long and that. role is taken away from you or. threatened, it's like, yeah, who are. you? You said that phrase twice just now, growing down or growing up. Yeah. What. does that mean because I like that? I think a lot of times in my career I. was just focused on like external growth.

and like, am I getting more followers? Am I getting more money? Am I getting. more plaques? And am I growing up, you. know? And I wasn't focused on growing. down into like the core of who I am and. getting to the to the root of it and to. the truth of myself and that's what I've. been trying to do. That's what this. album is is like me growing down, trying. to like get deeper and deeper into who I. actually am, you know? Cuz I'm just. trying to operate from a place of. authenticity and truth. And it's hard to.

feel authentic and be authentic when. you're operating from a place of shame. Like I'm ashamed of who I am. and I'm insecure about who I am, so how. can I be authentic? Because authentic would being authentic. would mean being insecure being and it's. like I can't be that especially in rap. You know what I mean? So it's like got. to mask it got to be omnipotent, you. know. What was the darkest and scariest thing.

you saw when you started growing down? I think the biggest thing I. the like darkest thing and thought I had. was like I don't like myself. That was like the heaviest. And what was it that you didn't like. about yourself? I was ashamed. about how. I've handled my career. I was very mad about at at like. 23-year-old me. I would beat him up daily.

Um. I was mad about, you know, me being. reactive towards people. I just didn't like anything about, you. know, myself. And that was a real low. point of like once again fraud if only. the world knew. You know, and. I've self-help book, right? And I. mentioned that on fraud as well. It's. like. who am I? Like to try to give people a.

book like and for me the book so. successful and it's helped a lot of. people but I look back at that book I'm. like it's like vapid to me now, you. know, and I'm glad it's helping people. but and I shouldn't I shouldn't denounce. any version of me. That's like I'm. you're watching in real time what I do. And um. yeah, that's the that's the heaviest. darkest thing that I've come to terms. with not that it's a reality of mine. that I want to come to terms with but. getting to a place of like I don't I. don't like myself. That was the lowest. point. I love what you just said that it's like.

being authentic means being able to. accept that I feel insecure and that. that lost version of me. just got me through that. And that doesn't make it good or bad, but it was a reality. But we think being. authentic means being like smooth and. like organized. What I've learned in therapy is the. admission of insecurity and feeling. nervous is step one because. what happened to me, and I think what.

happens to a lot of people, is rejecting. your insecurities. leads to self-destruction. Mhm. So, for example, like I used to do. interviews super drunk, right? Why? Cuz. I was nervous and insecure about just. being my authentic self. I didn't know. how to be that version. So, I would. drink to knock the edge off. So, like. the the rejecting of my insecurity led. to self-destructive habits and overall a. result that I don't like, you know? So,

yeah, I think just sitting in your. insecurities and and. and and saying that it's okay to be. insecure and feel nervous. Yeah. And I think for me it's like, nah, like. especially as men, like, nah, I'm not. allowed to, like, we got to be the man, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often like even when. I if I ever end up I don't go to many. parties or events and things like that, but if I ever have to or I do go for a. specific purpose, and it was someone it was what it was on. the Trevor Noah interview when Trevor. came on the show. He said to me, he.

goes, "Jay, you always seem really. comfortable whenever I see you. somewhere.". And I was like, "That's because I only. really go to places I have a purpose.". Like I was like, "If I don't have a. purpose there." I was like, "If you ever. see me uncomfortable, it's don't have a. purpose then. I don't know what I'm. doing there.". Yeah. And I I had a couple of those last year, which we talked about as funny enough. My my team was like, "Oh, you should. definitely go to this event. It's really. important and stuff." And so, I went. along and I just felt really like. insecure there and useless because I. didn't have a role. I didn't have a. purpose. I wasn't representing what I. believe I got to Obviously, I was.

representing myself, but I mean, I. wasn't there to represent anything. bigger Yeah, me showing up. And I found. that when I do feel like that, I just go. up to one other person that I feel I. could connect with and just be like, "Hey, I'm Are you feeling insecure, too? Cuz I am." And it's. That's huge, man. because everyone's feeling insecure. Like, especially at like these big. events. Yeah. that like no one There's no one, no. matter how cool you think anyone is, there is no one who's at an award show, an event, or a party, or anything that. is feeling anything but insecure. I've.

not met them, at least. Right. And doesn't that break the wall. down? Literally completely. Like, as soon as you do that, it's like. it goes away. It's the resisting the. insecurity that has everyone on edge, and they're looking at you, and you seem. to have it all the way together. together. Meanwhile, you're panicking. inside, and now they feel like, "Well, I. got to have it all the way together.". And we're all tense and just like. acting. Yeah. And if we could just be like, "Hey, is. everyone nervous?". [laughter]. Like, it's almost like, "Let's all stand. here naked." Like, that's what that does. emotionally. You know what I mean? It's.

like, "All right, cool. Now, let's like. Now, let's continue.". Yeah, yeah, and that happens in our. like, you know, it happens in family. events, it happens at weddings, it. happens at holiday events. Like, it. happens in normal life. You don't This. isn't just about the entertainment. industry. Like, it happens everywhere. And I fully agree with you that it's cuz. we're just resisting, in your in your. words, like resisting that insecurity. Yeah. What's an insecurity that you were. resisting for the longest time? Like, what would you say was an insecurity. that you've just been holding on to for.

Not feeling like I don't belong. That's probably like one of the biggest. ones. Being a white guy in rap, in. hip-hop, um with no co-sign within the. culture to sort of make me feel like I. do belong. It was It was a massive insecurity of. mine, and I just came in guns blazing. Like, I don't need any of y'all. Look, uh. And it's like deep down, you wanted. everyone, though. Yeah. You wanted help deep down, you know? But. you masked it by, "Well, if I'm not.

going to get it, I'll do it myself. And. that became like a really big like brand. and motto for me. And I don't think. people understand that my song do it. myself and that energy it was survival. It wasn't like if you have people. willing to help you should tell them no. It was I didn't have help. I wish I did, but I didn't. So, I had to do it myself. Has there anyone who's ever reached out. in the industry that you feel has. not co-signed obviously, but like given.

you a bit of that kind of nurturing or. has it has it still always been kind of. like I'm making more. I think I've met a lot of great people. in the industry who have given me. validation and like you're great, you're. dope. But like yeah, I mean I've never. been like taken under someone's wing. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was always just kind of. like me and my manager just like going. at this thing, you know? And um. I'm trying to be more proud of my. younger self as much as I want to beat. him up for how he like was omnipotent. and a maniac. But it's like for what you.

were going through. that you crushed. You know, like I don't know how you did. all that. And and that's what I love you boy that. song is about especially on that third. verse where it's like you know, saying. you deserve a pat on the back. You know, it's just like I've never given myself a. pat on the back. And I wanted to take. that song to like as an opportunity to. give myself the much needed you know, pat on the back and compassion. Inspired by that song if you if you saw. like if you were.

if instead of me your younger self was. sitting in front of you right. a therapy exercise right [laughter]. here. If you were yeah, instead of me if your. younger self was sitting in front of you. right now like sitting in this seat what. does he need to hear? Not advice, but. what does he need to hear? What does he need to hear? He needs to. hear that. you're okay, you're safe. and I got you. That's what he needs to. hear. And what do you think he'd say back? Probably I don't need your help. Mhm. Yeah. It's really interesting how like what I.

think all of us need from ourselves is. just more compassion and more grace. And. the younger version of me needs that so. bad, needed that so bad, and I didn't. get it. And he didn't know how to. receive that help and receive that. compassion. Um and I don't know if he. you know, if I was talking to him and he. rejected the help and compassion, I. would just keep trying. Cuz I know. that's what he really needs. And he just. wants. to feel safe, like he belongs, like it's. going to be okay, like he's allowed to. make mistakes. You know, that's the.

other thing. Once again, being a. perfectionist, it's like it really is. like hindering when it comes to. everything, like accepting help, because. once again, help is coded as criticism. As a perfectionist, feeling good about. anything you've done because you could. have always done better, so you didn't. quite nail your standard of perfection. And I just think like that's what I'm. trying to get to now is be like giving. myself more grace.

And I talk about it on Tunnel Vision. where I say, "I want to stop thinking. that I got to go through hell to get the. credit I desperately need to give to. myself." You know, you can just do this. a easier way. [laughter]. It's also hard being a. high performer who gives grace to. themselves. Yeah. Because that's the hard part, right? It's like I want to perform at the best, but I know I need to be nice to myself, but I can't be too nice because if I'm. too nice to myself, then I can't perform. at my best, and it's like this fight.

inside of you. Yeah, I think it it it comes down to. kind of what you were saying earlier. where it's like if your tool kit is only. shame and like dark motivation, then. you're just going to use that, and it's. not sustainable. I think for me, the. light motivation is like. you know, I love what I'm doing. You. know, when I'm on stage, I love the. fans, I love performing. And as long as I did my best, I have to. be okay with that. Yeah. You know, I can say, "Okay, you. know, I know I can do better than that, but tonight I did my best." And it's.

easier said than done. Like, I'm working. on that, but I think that's the place to. start. It's just knowing like. did you do your best with the resources. that you had? And to think that you were. supposed to just be this all-knowing. entity. Yeah. It's like that's arrogance, you know? But that's why I would beat myself up a. lot. It's like, "How did you not know?". You know, but it's like you're allowed. to not know everything. That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful. actually to look back and think. I wouldn't have done anything better. I'm glad that. Yeah.

to just go through that. And. That's who I was back then. That's who I was back then. Those were like I based my decisions in. the past off of what I knew back then. And what felt true to me back then, what. felt authentic, and with the reservoir. of knowledge I had back then. That's. what I based my decisions off of. Obviously now, 7 years later, 10 years, whatever it is, I would make different. decisions, but it's like I can't be mad. at 23-year-old me that he didn't know. what 30-year-old me knows. Yeah, yeah.

It's so hard for me to not want to beat. him up. Like, "You're such an idiot. All. you had to do was like read this one. book and you would have even been better. off, you know?" Sometimes it feels like. the answer was right there. But that's what it is, right? Like, we. have this habit as humans where we judge. ourselves off of one conversation, one. event, one performance, one song, one. meeting. And what's really interesting. thing is about that is that we then. project that onto other people where we. judge them on one song, one moment, one.

interaction, rather than looking at. someone as this. Right. story of a human. And it's it's fascinating to me that you. would never ever pick up a book and read. one page and judge the whole book. You. No one really does that. Right. You would read some of the book at. least. But it's like with ourselves and. with others, we don't see them as a. story, we see them as a page. Yeah, that's. And right? true. And it's so brutal though. It's so brutal.

It's so brutal. I do it to myself and I. think. I think in the world of social media, too, you're not allowed to make. mistakes. Your one mistake is the book. Mhm. That just tells me everything I need to. know about you and how you treat. yourself. Mhm. Cuz I know like I tend to be, and this. is like not a great thing, a very. judgmental person. And I justify it by saying. relax, I judge myself, too. It's like. that's not good though. Yeah. You know? And it's But I do what you. said. I look at one event and be like,

you don't deserve anything because of. that one convo or that one tweet or that. one. Yeah, not realizing that that point that. was where that person was. Right. Right. And and actually we open people up to. change including ourselves when we. recognize that. our capacity for change can increase. Right? If you look back at an event like. you're saying and you're like, I. actually appreciate that's what I knew. then. I I didn't do something I was. proud of, but that's what I knew then. Now that I I think there's a famous Maya. Angelou quote where she says that now.

that I know better, I do better. Right. And the idea of. if you don't accept that that's possible. for you and others, that's what actually. keeps you in prison because you keep. saying no, No, no, that's who you are. Right. That event 10 years ago is who you are. and that's who you'll ever be. It's so tough. That's so true. It's tough. But I mean in social media, you're not. allowed to change your mind. That also. keeps people, especially celebrities and. people in the public eye, like into this.

prison where it's like, no, no, no, no. What you said you believed what you said. 10 days ago, let alone 10 years ago, you. better still believe that or you're. fake. Like And it's crazy because you're. allowed to change your mind and not only. are you allowed to change your mind. you're supposed to change your mind. You're supposed to now have a new belief. system. It's not like. Rick Rubin talked about it with you and. I thought it was so spot-on. It's like. if you still like have the same beliefs. you did 20 years ago upon learning new.

things and you're not growing like you. know, but. I think that's why you got to like. remove yourself from social media and. what the world in the mob of the. internet and stop trying to reconcile. with them reconcile with yourself and. give yourself the permission to change. your mind. Yeah. Yeah, I've I've what's something. you. think that you have changed your mind on. from let's say like. maybe 10 years ago or maybe if you need. to go back longer 20 years ago. Like. I'll I'll share one of mine. Mine was. when I was young I didn't because I grew.

up in this mindset. I believed that. people who had money had to do something. dodgy to get money. Yeah. Cuz that's the language that I was. raised in like we always heard that like. oh yeah, but he doesn't pay his taxes or. if I saw a nice car and I be like my. family would be like oh yeah, yeah, but. they always do that dodgy business on. the side and so in my head anyone who. had money must be doing something wrong. to have money. And that not only did that limit me from. appreciating others or admiring or.

learning from those people it blocked me. from thinking that was good for me and. possible for me. Right. Cuz you would have had to do. dodgy stuff. have had to do dodgy stuff and I thought. I was a good person. So I don't I'm not. going to do any I'll never do anything. bad. So. So you'll never get money. never get money. Yeah, exactly. And and. then you all of a sudden start realizing. where like you need to meet and this is. why I think that's why I love the. podcast cuz I want to show people or. show sides of people or let people show. sides of themselves where people can go. oh, that is possible. I can be a rapper.

Yeah. and go to therapy. Like I can I can be. you know, I can be someone who makes. songs about this, this, this and work on. myself. Like that is there is an and as. opposed to like this, you know, exactly. So for me that was a big one. for me of recognizing that you can make. money with integrity. You could use it. in service. You could it could be used. proactively for purpose and that. was a massive limiting belief and and. negative belief I had. What was.

something for you that you that you. changed your mind on? I think the big. thing for me. was. um. thinking that I was always right. Ooh, that's a good one. That's the biggest one for me. Because I was operating in this place, once again, of omnipotence, just that. I knew everything. Everything I did was. right. Every decision I've ever made was. right. Because. look at my life. Clearly, everything I've ever done was. right. And everything I say is right. Everything I know so.

I got to a place now where I'm so much. more curious and I'm so much more. humble in the sense of like I'm open to. being wrong. Because it's like I believe. what I believe, but I'm open to changing. my mind. I'm open to someone else. telling me their beliefs and me being. open-minded and curious about it. I'm. open to not always being right. And I. think that is a much better like. starting place. And that's it's really interesting cuz. everything we're saying is basically. that paradox of like we were saying, you. want to be ambitious, but you got to.

have grace for yourself. You. want to be you want to have know your. values, but you want to be open to. learning more and changing them. And. it's almost like everything is this. and I think that's where we struggle the. most because whether it was parenting, whether it was school, whether it was. our background, we were always told that. there was one right answer. Right. Right? Like you have to get. in the back of the book. And it's in the back [laughter] of the. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. it's like there's one right answer that. everyone has to get to and if you're one.

mark off the answer, then it's the wrong. answer. And the truth is that life is so. variegated, it is so gray, it is as you. just said even when you were talking. earlier, you were like, there are so. many layers to this. Yeah. So, it's like one answer is. material stuff doesn't make you happy, right? But, it's like when you broke. down the layers of like actually, why. did my parents divorce make me unhappy? It's because this is And so, you're. like, everything is so layered, but I. feel like we haven't I don't know if our. brain Our brain almost needs not an app, but our brain needs the ability.

to be able to understand how everything. is so multi-layered. Yeah. But, we're so it's so much easier to. just put someone in a box and and go, that's what I'm judging. And just be more flexible. Yeah. And I think uh Atomic Habits talks about. like keeping your identity small. And I thought it was so genius. It talks. about, you know, there's athletes who. their identity is, I'm an athlete, I'm a. point guard. And what happens when. you're not playing basketball anymore, though? And they have this identity crisis, and.

sometimes it gets really, you know, severe. And he talks about how like instead of. saying I'm an athlete, how about saying. I'm a hard worker who, you know, works. well with teams and did it. And so that you can still get you can. still apply what your strengths are from. being an athlete into other aspects of. your life after being an athlete is. done. And I thought that was so powerful. because it's so easy to get tied up into. I'm a rapper, or I'm a this, or I'm a. that, and you start trying to like do.

things based off of the perception of. yourself. And I just think being more flexible, you know, and not being so rigid on who. you are, and just, you know, be open. What's something that you were very. I guess. inflexible about unflexible about, and. now that you've become more flexible. about in your identity? I think being a man. And being what I thought. that means, like being start not showing. any emotion, not showing like anything.

is affecting me, um, not receiving help, doing it myself. All. these things, like, that to me is the. most valuable thing that I'm now. flexible on is because I've learned that. there's strength in vulnerability and. there's strength in being honest and. there's strength in collaboration. You. know, learning from a positive. male role model who's older than you and. just can give you, you know, new wisdom, new knowledge. It's like. there's strength in collaboration. I.

think We talked about it in therapy. It. was this documentary that my therapist. was talking about, like, and he was. talking about how like alpha males who. lead. by dominance via like fear are often. like exiled or killed. And the ones who lead through. collaboration and cohesion, like, like, exhibit peace and like people love. them. And it's so funny because I think. growing up, like, we would idolize those. male figures who were the like just. dominant, you know, and just invoke fear.

and all these things and I'm just trying. to help myself and I'm also trying to. help my fans and then on a real, real. specific level, I'm trying to be. a lighthouse for young men that can look. at me and say, "You know what? I don't. have to have it all figured out because. he doesn't. And if he's allowed to make. mistakes, I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm trying to get men and people to just. be nicer to themselves, have more.

compassion, have more grace. what you were saying about leaders. because. I feel like there is that perception. that leaders have to be stoic and strong. and cold. Yeah. And it was really interesting to me. because I'm I'm still close with my monk. teachers and like they're the kind of. people that like would come and sit in. the back on the floor of a class and. listen to a young monk give a talk. Yeah. And that was considered humility and the. strength of a leader was like they. weren't enforcing their authority.

Right. Like they would always say like a real. leader doesn't I would always hear them. say this like a a real leader doesn't. demand respect, they command it. Right? It's just it's natural for them. They. don't have to walk into the room and all. eyes on me. They don't have to do. something big to gain attention. They. actually would come on and put the. spotlight on you. Right. But it's interesting because that isn't. our general belief around leaders. We almost want to be. pushed around and moved around to think. someone's powerful.

Right. It's almost like if someone's kind and. gracious, you kind of think of them as. like a. soft. and a pushover, yeah. Whereas and so I. think there's so much rewiring that. almost needs to go on into what is. healthy leadership or. I know and I'm not like the epitome of, you know, where neither of you should be. looking, but it's like I agree. I think. there's a re- wiring that has to happen. on what it means to be a man. And I. think men need to also stop looking for. what it means to be a man from women.

And women need to stop even caring what. men say when it comes to what does it. mean to be a woman? Mhm. It's we don't know each other's. experiences, you know? Men need more. male collaboration, positive male. collaboration, positive role models. And I think it's what you said earlier, like knowing that we're wrong. If we're. all sitting with someone to learn about. them. Right. we go into it going, I probably don't. know. Right. what you're going through right now. Right. And I'm probably wrong. Right. As opposed to like, yeah, I already know. I've I've got you figured out like all. men are like this or women are like this.

or or whatever it may be, which which is. kind of how we live in the world. What. Does anything. Do you sleep well? What keeps you up at. night? I sleep well now. I got a aura ring. Oh, nice. Yeah, I like the aura ring. Yeah, I'm a I don't know. I'm 30 now. I'm trying to like be in bed by, you. know, midnight. You're living. [laughter]. Dude, you're getting I'm 30 I'm 36 this. year and I I sleep at like 9:30 p.m. 10:00 p.m. Yeah, it's so good. gone to sleep at like 9:50, getting like. 8 hours of sleep. I feel like waking up. going on walks. I'm like.

[laughter]. who am I? This is crazy. How does it feel to have. hit 30 and 31 soon? If like even Santiago, this feels like. my debut album because it just feels. like this is a version of myself that. has not been shown to the world. And I. still feel as young as I ever felt, but. I just feel like I know myself more. I'm. more comfortable with myself. I'm living in more of my truth and. authenticity. And I'm excited. Like I. just feel.

I feel blessed to make it out of my 20s. alive, you know, without any like drug. problems or anything cuz looking back. I'm like I can see, you know, reasons for numbing the pain, you know? But um. yeah, I'm excited. I also love the. you know, I was watching you I'm always. following everything you're up to and I. love the way you talk to the fans when. you're on stage and when you post from. it, but also how you've been encouraging. so many young artists to like jump on. tracks and like be a part of the music.

through TikTok and everything else and. like. I think that's so dope, man, cuz I it. just I think there was I think there was. one with you do with Caitlyn, right? Like yeah, and it was just like. [snorts]. I I just found that whole approach to be. so true to how you came up and and what. you do and like being able to pass down. How does that feel to be able to now. like. It's. It's incredible. I feel like I said it. before to like my friends and and. people, like you don't really feel the. power of your platform or the power of. your money until you give it away and.

see how it affects someone who maybe. doesn't have that. It sort of like snaps. you out of it for a second. It snaps you. into really what you've built, but yeah, I mean for me like the you know, the. approach on TikTok and putting Kaylyn on. the song. It's like it's a no-brainer. Like and that's where like I'm glad I. don't have an ego in that sense and in. that field. It's like if I'm putting up. a song. and someone is affected by it enough to. want to do their own version and people. love it and I think it sounds good. Why. would I not just like make that a thing?

Yeah. Just like this is the entertainment. business and it's like meaning we're in. the business of people enjoying what. you're doing. This is a cheat code. They've already. said that they enjoy it. Just give it to. them. It's like. Yeah. I thought it was dope. I loved it. too. Yeah, she's great. Very talented. Yeah, very talented. Where where you. just mentioned the ego there. Where does. the ego still block you sometimes? Like. you were like that's somewhere where I. don't have an ego. Where is somewhere. I don't have a How would you describe. the ego? It's a great question. Cuz then I could answer.

Yeah, yeah, it's great it's a great. question and that's why I want to give. you a a very thoughtful answer. I would. say that the ego is. any moment in which you create a false. sense of security. Mhm. So you're creating a false sense of. being safe. As opposed to something like. arrogant, blah blah blah. That's because. those are all ultimately it's a false. self-defense mechanism. Yeah. So like for example with my wife, it's. like if my wife tells me something that. I know is blatantly true. my ego will even construct something.

where I'm like, "Oh yeah, but this. happened before and this It's like I'm. constructing a tru- I'm What I'm saying. is true. It's factual, but I'm still. using it just to defend my ego. Yeah. Cuz I'm scared of just saying. like, you know, that you're wrong. Yeah. Oh, well, I do that all the time. So the wrong part's true, but like. Yeah. Where where do you create a false sense. of safety in your life or a false sense. of security? I think trying to constantly. save my mom emotionally and.

take on my family's emotions as my. responsibility because without me doing. that, they're not safe. is like a really. big. crux of like my stress. You know? And it's not on them, it's on me. And. it's really me not. like I'm not allowing my mom to pull. herself out of the hole unless I go down.

there with her. But that's really. the opposite of empowering. It's like I. need to I need to let go, but letting go. so scary because if I feel like she's. drowning or if I feel like my brother's. drowning or my sister or whoever I love. is drowning and I'm watching them drown, how am I supposed to not go in and save. them? But the reality is sometimes. they're just flapping their arms and. their feet are on the ground. And it. just looked like they were drowning.

You know? But. Dude, that is a great answer. Was it? I don't. great answer. No, because you just there. is another definition is as when you. asked me that question that came to my. mind, it's. and whatever anyone's belief in God is, when I say the word God is like God, universe, whatever whatever you. personally choose, but like the ego is. when you choose to play God. instead of play your part for God. Wow. Okay, so that was a good [laughter]. answer. And that's why it's it's a great answer.

Yeah, yeah. Because that is exactly what's. happening. It's like you're you're. saying it's all on me. Right. trying to be the universe. The almighty. omnipotent. You used the word at the. beginning. Like that's a god-like word, right? Like where you're like everything. rests and depends on me. Right. Which means if I do it, I'm going to. save it, and if I'm not there, it's. going to fall apart. And that's ego. because like you just rightly said, like. not only you can love someone and let. them still grow by themselves and still. be there for them, but you can't grow.

for them. But when you want to grow for. someone instead of grow with them or. help them grow. Yeah. And I think that that level of. like. omnipotence and that level of control. also. influences like lack of confidence. because. by me being like, let me handle it. really says, oh, so you think that if I. handle it. you know, me being my mom like, oh, you. think if I handle it and don't let you. help me Russ that like I can't do it.

You know? And I'm just like, yeah, kind of. [laughter]. You know, but I need to it's just really. it's coming back to that place of my. role and my identity. I always played. the role of helping and being. responsible emotionally for people and. and saving them and fixing things. And. so it's just second nature. I get very. hyper vigilant when I when someone. around me is upset because if you're. upset, it's my fault. Is what it is what it gets like coded.

as. And. I'm trying to unlearn that, but that's. tough because like I said, I feel. um. or when I was a kid the stakes seemed so. high. It felt like it was life or death. if I don't help. What if someone self. harms, etc. But now. when someone's upset, I still can't let. go. and and still be there for them, but not. feel like I have to go down into the. hole with them. because I'm still operating from that. child like role, you know, and I and and. I'm just working on understanding that.

like they're okay, they're going to be. okay, like you know, no one's saying. like cut them off and don't talk to. anyone, but it's like you don't need to. go down into the hole with them. Yeah, that's beautiful. And man, the the. album Santiago is inspired by Paulo. Coelho's Alchemist, which is a legendary. if you haven't heard of I mean, you have. to have heard of this book. Everyone's. listening. If you haven't, it's a. legendary book by legendary author. When. did you first come across the book and. and why did you feel like you wanted to. bring music into the book. Um so, Boogie is my best friend put that.

book in my hand when I was probably 17, 18. I met him last time. Did you? Yeah, he brought him with you last time. Beautiful. So, you met. He's such a great dude, yeah. He's incredible. So, he put like that. book in my hand. Pretty sure, yeah. Napoleon Hill in my head, you know, and. crazy books to read at that age. Um and I was instantly like. it became like a Bible for me, you know? And there's there was just so many. parallels that I found and I just I. opened it back up a, you know, a few. times over the years, but for whatever. reason, 2 years ago summer of 2021, I.

decided to reread it. And you know how. you can like read a book that you've. already read, but you read it at a. different time in your life and all of a. sudden different things stick out and it. resonates deeper. And so, I it just felt. it just spoke to me so deeply. than even before. And. I was like, man, I want to make a whole. album. that gives like. that parallels the book with my story. But, what ended up happening was. it was hard for me to just tell my story.

and not make an album about The. Alchemist. And so, that's why I ended up. saying it was loosely inspired by The. Alchemist because at the inception, it. was truly like. it felt like I couldn't write about my. life, I had to write about Santiago's, but then Paulo Coelho says something in. in I think the forward where he says, Santiago is my journey, but it's your. journey because one man's journey is. everyone's journey. And that was the. unlock for me and the permission for me. to like tell my story.

and there is like parallels within The. Alchemist and my natural story, but it's. not. a complete side-by-side thing. It just. It was a lighthouse for me, you know, the wind, an oasis. It was things that. I related to, but I still had my own. input on. But, yeah, a complete. framework and lighthouse and he's a. genius and he listened to the album and. What did he say? Yeah, he likes it. So, it's like he that. to me was like this is insane. That's beautiful, man. What a beautiful. homage to like, you know, one of the.

great writers. nervous cuz I'm like it was so so. insane. I started making this album. summer 2021. He doesn't follow me on. Twitter. Randomly, like right when I. start to make it, he follows me on. Twitter. You know, he follows like 160. people. And I was like, what are the. odds that like while I'm making this, but you know, if you read The Alchemist, the signs and all these things, I'm. like, all right. Clearly, I'm supposed. to be reading this or unless he's got. the room bugged. Like I don't know. what's going on. Um but I so I told right when he. followed me, I told him I was like, yo, I'm actually making an album about like. loosely inspired by The Alchemist. And.

he was like, that's so great. Keep me. posted. And he would like check in. periodically, like, yo, how's it coming? And I was like, he doesn't follow me. anymore. I don't think it's personal, but. [laughter]. I love it. I love it. You just you took. Santiago down a different path. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's beautiful, man. I love that. I love that. If there's one song, Russ, you've been amazing. This has been such. a It's always great having you here. I've got two questions for you. One is. is there anything I haven't asked you. that you want to talk about cuz you're a. friend and I I I have to honor you with. that question. Is there anything we.

haven't dove into that you're like, "Yeah, I want to talk about this." Or. even if it's quieter and you're like, "It's on my heart right now. I need to. say it." The floor is yours. No, I think honestly, I think we touched. on everything. Everything. Yeah, and I'm really, really happy with. how this went. I appreciate you having. me, for real. Of course, man. I appreciate you. I was. looking You can come back on whenever. you want. Like this is like it's it's I. love conversations where they really are. just like a back and forth and like. that's how I feel with you. I'm just. like we can just talk about stuff and. figure stuff out and not know the answer. and you know, but if there's one.

I'm going to say my one, you can say. yours. What is the one track you want. everyone to go stream after listening to. this episode? Which one would you. recommend? you, boy. I was going to say the same one, yeah. I. think it's so aligned with today's. conversation. But the other ones that I. recommend too that we discussed today, Fraud, really powerful. Oasis, highly. recommend too as well. And then of. course go listen to the whole album. Russ, you've been amazing to have back. on. I appreciate you so much as a as a. human, as a artist. I I don't know.

anyone who's made mental health and. music seem that cool as you have, which. I love because it's it's my life's work, but seeing you do it in your way is so. empowering and I think there are a whole. group of listeners that are going to. come up and just have different. viewpoints because of you. So. I hope so, man. Thank you. it's happening already. It's happened. and it's happening. So, but thank you, man. I appreciate you being on On. Purpose. And listen, it's a testament to like the. reason why I always want to come back. here is cuz the energy you have and like. the barriers down vibe you have where.

there's no judgement and the depth you. have. It was just such a no-brainer for. me to like I always got to go back and. sit with him because it's just such a. like even the energy in this room, it's. just so. curious and like safe, you know? So, that's a testament to you. Uh thank you for saying that, man. I. appreciate it. Anytime. Yeah. Anytime. And everyone who's been. listening and watching, wherever you. are, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're. driving to and from work, or whether. you're at the gym, make sure you tag me. and Russ in all your posts on TikTok, on.

Instagram. Let us know what resonated. with you, what stuck out to you on. Twitter, on Threads. I love seeing the. little clips. I love seeing how you're. enjoying the podcast. It means the world. to me. I know it means a lot to Russ. And tag us when you're streaming as. well. Santiago out right now. Uh thank. you so much, everyone. If you loved this. episode, you'll love my interview with. Will Smith on owning your truth and. unlocking the power of manifestation. Anybody who hasn't spoken to their. parents or their brother, call them.

right now. Don't think you're going to. have a chance to call them tomorrow or. next week. That opportunity with my. father changed every relationship in. [music] my life.