Robinhood CEO: Stop Trusting Experts if You Really Want to Make Money!

Robinhood was a very controversial name, and I think that's what made it powerful. because you either love it or you're. kind of like repulsed by it to some. degree, but it doesn't sound like a. finance company. The name itself tells. you a lot about what the company stands. for and what the products help you. achieve. The number one health and. wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay. Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. What's a childhood memory that you have. that you feel has impacted the work you.

do today? If I think about the childhood. memories that. I have that stick out, they're all kind. of like somewhat traumatic, I would say, but I I think I had a very happy. childhood by and large. Like I I. wouldn't trade anything, but. my childhood was full of. uh significant change. So, a couple of. the memories that stick out was going to. the airport for the first time. You. know, I I grew up in Bulgaria, a very.

small country in Eastern Europe. Uh I. was born in the '80s, which was a time. of communism. So, it was sort of like there was the West. and then the Iron Curtain, and not a lot. of back-and-forth travel. My first time. to the airport was actually after the. Berlin Wall fell, communism in Bulgaria. had kind of collapsed or was on the. verge of collapsing. My father was given an opportunity to.

to go to the US to study, which was, you. know, the the events that kind of. conspired to allow that to happen could. not have conspired uh at an earlier. time, right? But, you know, he had to go. by himself because. we just didn't have the money to like. send even my mom with him, much less my. mom and me. So, he kind of. went off uh. by himself to uh see if he could make it.

and make a new life for us in in kind of. this new land and. I think I. they were trying to prepare me for this. because I was an only child and. you know, the weeks leading up to it, you know, my parents were like, you. know, your dad's going to America. You're not going to see him for. for for a long time, you know, and it. ended up being. I think about 2 years before before I. saw him again. I'm not a very emotional. person. I've kind of been described as.

stoic. I wasn't a very emotional child. and I just remember like. when we got to the gate and I and my dad. kind of like went to the other side and. uh. I wasn't like allowed to to cross. because of course I didn't have a. ticket. I just like cried and bawled my. guts out because it kind of sank in that. I wasn't going to see him for for a very. long time. That's probably one of the. one of the biggest memories. Another. memory, you know, perhaps a little bit.

more relevant to. Robinhood was. after I had moved from Bulgaria to the. US and uh. we had gotten enough money to have a. vacation and of course the only place to. go back on vacation was to see my. grandparents back in in the home. country. So we we'd gone back and I. remember the exchange rate of the. currency, right? It used to be a sort of. like. two Bulgarian leva for $1, but I came. back and it was 2,000. So Bulgaria had.

gone through this incredible period of. hyperinflation where the the inflation. of the Bulgarian lev was the the highest. in the world. This was 1996 and I think. 1997 as well. I think there were 2. years. And so, you know, my grandparents'. pensions were just worthless. Everyone. in the country was struggling. and I think those early moments were. when I developed this like visceral.

understanding of how important money was. because I think to a kid. money's maybe not so important but to. me, you know, my parents were new in the. country. They were just like getting. started from scratch basically starting. from zero and. I always felt like every decision every. family decision had this like layer of. like. how much money is going to be spent on. this? How important is it? We have to. like. choose like the the budget potato chips.

or shop at Shoppers Food Warehouse. rather than Safeway because they have. like the dented cans and stuff like. that. So I I think from very early on. um. I got this understanding of like the. importance of money and saving it and. protecting it and that that was that was. just like driving so many of the. decisions that my parents were making on. a daily basis. Yeah, thanks for sharing. both of those actually. They they're. such unique perspectives. With the first. one, what was it like when you reunited.

with your dad after two years and the. last time you saw him you were. absolutely in tears? I remember that. very vividly too actually. Yeah, because. uh I landed in JFK Airport. I was 5. years old and um. it was my first airplane flight and I. remember I was just like puking my guts. out that entire flight because uh. you know, they they had some they were. serving some food on the plane. and I was traveling with my aunt who was. like 15 years old at the time and she.

was like a punk rock teenager. Like she. loved American music. She had her. Walkman on. She liked, you know, Nirvana. and grunge. She later settled in Seattle. which uh. which I think made a lot of sense. But. anyway, they they brought us the food in. the plane and, you know, it's funny, you. think plane food was like just this. trash, you don't want to eat it, but I. thought it was it looked amazing. So, I. just kind of like. engulfed all of it. And then, of course,

that led to. me puking my guts out. And so, I didn't. have a very fun plane ride. So, I felt a. little off coming coming out on JFK and. I hadn't seen my my parents in a long. time. It was like. I spent the the majority of the past. year living with my grandparents. My dad. first went, then my mom joined him. later, and then I joined with my aunt. And so, I was very shy. It was it was. almost like.

meeting strangers. You know, of course, I knew they were my parents, but after. not having seen them for a while, I was. like kind of hiding behind my aunt's leg. and I'd stick one eye out and get a look. at them. And there's this picture of me. in the parking lot of JFK Airport when. they kind of like showed me the family. car for the first time. And. um. it was this like Plymouth Duster from. the '80s. I don't know if you know the. car, but it. had a mask. So, back in the '80s, cars.

would have masks out front and that was. kind of the style. Um. And. I could tell. you could tell by looking at me that I. was like this shy kid, very very. nervous, didn't really know what was. going on. You know, landed in a new. place, skyscrapers everywhere. You know, there was just I remember the. skyscrapers. You know, just nothing. prepares you for that when you're coming. from a very very small country. It took. me a little bit of time to like get.

reacquainted with my parents. You would. think I would just like jump into their. arms and it would be like we we didn't. miss a moment, but there there was. definitely a little bit of hesitancy and. shyness before I kind of warmed up and. and realized who they were. Yeah, I mean it makes sense because. you you would separate so young. that it's almost like you maybe haven't. even had an opportunity to. to even build a relationship at that. age. Yeah, I mean when my dad left I must. have been three. That's what I mean. It's.

I can't even remember being three. Yeah, I mean I have very few memories from. before then. It was it was basically. saying bye to my dad at at the airport. Maybe my third birthday party I vaguely. remember. Two pictures maybe. Yeah. The. first snowfall, but yeah, it's like. three or four memories and that's. basically it. Yeah, and with the with. the second short story you shared about. the financial situation and seeing the. inflation in Bulgaria and. coming back to that world when you when. you went back, how did someone like that.

how did a kid like you shy separate from. parents seeing that in Bulgaria get to. Stanford? Like what is that journey look. like because I can imagine that that. wasn't a simple or easy journey. That. doesn't seem like a natural Yeah. natural progression. So when I got to. the US, I didn't know how to speak. English. That's what I was I was going. to ask that. Was that your first. language? Yeah. And uh Bulgarian was my. first language. I think. it kind of became clear, you know, once. my dad uh went to the US.

then. my mom tried to teach me English, but. you know, it doesn't really work unless you're. kind of talking to kids and doing it on. a daily basis and I I was three anyway, so it it would have been tough going. So when I first got to the US and um. and I went to school in Bulgaria and. I never really like. found uh found a good group of friends. in school either. I was kind of a a.

lonely kid. I mean it was preschool and. kindergarten, so. um. I I have too many memories of it, but I. would always switch schools too. Like. when I moved in with my grandparents, they obviously lived in a different part. of town, so I would go to a different. school. So, I never really like I didn't. like the idea of school, and I remember. kind of dreading having to go in this. new country, and you even more so I. didn't speak the language. I remember. just like kindergarten was was really. hard. There were all kinds of.

different types of kids. Um I couldn't. really like navigate my way around. I. didn't know who was who. I couldn't even. tell the teacher that I needed to go to. the bathroom, so I'd kind of hold it in. all day. And then I remember first. grade. Um. I have this like one memory from first. grade, which was I was in a little. reading circle. And you know uh. you know like the kids do these reading. circles and you're reading like these.

basic books. And I still remember this first grade. reading circle, and I was like, "Man, I can read, and not only can I read, but. I'm reading better than all these. American kids." So, I think that's when. I kind of had the realization that maybe. I was like intelligent or uh I. identified as as a smart person. And I. think my parents did this like really. valuable thing in hindsight, which was. they kind of like advocated for me. So,

they never got into like the PTA or. school activities or volunteering. They. they just didn't have time because my. dad was in grad school and working. My. mom was working as well just to to try. to supplement. And um. and they're like, "You know, our kid uh. our kid is smart. He should be in the. accelerated like math. Can can he skip. grades?" They're always trying to like. push the teachers to put me in in. another grade, and the teachers were.

like, "Well, well, he's small, and he. doesn't really have that many friends. We don't really think it's a great idea. for have to have him skip a whole bunch. of grades. But, um you know, they they. kept pushing. and uh. eventually, you know, I was given an. opportunity to skip a grade and uh I did. like very very well at school, but I. kind of had this fairly early. realization that I was smart and kind of. good at math and sciences. And then, um. my parents also had this way of like.

applying pressure, uh. which I think was like kind of honest. from their perspective, but also might. have been a little bit strategic, which. was. we're new to this country, we're. immigrants, like we're not citizens. We could sort of like get kicked out at. any time. There was this like. fear of deportation always. And so, it. was kind of like you got to do well in. school because uh. otherwise, we might get deported. And.

for sure, you're going to have to get a. scholarship because we're not making any. money in this family. So, you're going. to have to like if you want to go to. college and make it in this country and. get an education, it's kind of on you. I. would I would kind of hear this and. really internalize it at an early age, but it was quite intense. It was like, all right, well, I better just like. always ace all my exams and and do well. because there was like all this pressure. of the the family making it in this. country that I felt a big part.

Yeah, that I felt a big part of. Did you. Did it ever feel like too much or it. felt like it just got you to perform and. you locked in? Like, did you find. pressure to be your friend or did you. find pressure overwhelming? Yeah, I I. don't think that it ever felt like too. much. I think school felt. school, at least kind of in the uh early. days, was. relatively easy for me. Yeah, I mean, um.

I kind of like sailed through elementary. school. Um. by the time I got to middle school, I. was probably like. 4 years ahead of. uh. my classmates, three or four years ahead. in mathematics, for example. Um my dad. always emphasized mathematics, too. You. know, he was he was an economist in. Bulgaria, and he was always like, "Well, you know, if you're good at math, you can kind of do anything. So, all of.

this other stuff, like, you know, language arts, you know, you'll you'll. figure that out. Math is like the. thing." And there was also a little bit. of a competitive element because I would. be like, "Oh, Dad, you know, how old. were you when you figured out like this. type of math? Like, when did you learn. calculus?" And he was like, "Oh, I I. learned calculus when I was in graduate. school." I was like, "All right, I'm. going to do it in seventh grade.". Did you succeed? Uh no, maybe it was like 11th grade or. something. Precalculus, maybe. Yeah.

Then I, you know, started doing it. outside of school. I started doing all. of these camps. Like, there there was. this one um. there was this one camp called CTY. I. don't know if you've heard of it. Um I. did that in middle school. And. basically, the way it worked was you. take the SAT. So, the SAT is the um. Yeah. For any listener who's not. American, college entrance exam here. Um. I think it's required again now. For a. while, it wasn't required, but.

basically, you have to take it to get. into a good college. And for this camp, CTY, um. you you basically took it as a middle. schooler, and then, you know, depending. on how well you did on this test, you. could like qualify for certain classes. In eighth grade, uh. I got a pretty good score. I think I got. a 1370. And I'd skipped a grade, so I. was like a a younger eighth grader, too. And at that point, you know, I had this. math teacher in my middle school, and he.

had to like sign some stuff to have me. go to this camp. He's like, "770 on the. on the math in the SAT? Like, that's higher than I ever got, you know, when I was in college." Um, so I think at at that point, I just I. kept getting this reinforcement that, you know, I was really great at math. I. should I should keep doing it. And I. guess Stanford, uh, how how I came to Stanford was an. interesting story. The second vacation. that my family took after we moved to.

America, they took me to California. And. my dad was like reading all these travel. books, and he had this book like the. 1,001 Places to See Before You Die. And. a lot of them were on the West Coast. So, like, the Grand Canyon and uh, Sequoia National Park, where you could. drive your car through this like big. tree. I don't know if you've seen. pictures of that, but we drove through. the tree, and we kind of did this road. trip through California. And.

there was this one day where we drove. through San Francisco, and we spent the. night there. And it was the middle of. summer, and it was raining. It was like. close to 0°. C. So, I had to actually buy a jacket. because I was just unprepared for this. Um, and so kind of kind of this miserable. day. And then we drove down, uh, we drove down to Stanford, which is in. Palo Alto, about 45 minutes south of the. city, and everything cleared up. The sky.

was blue, not a single cloud in the sky. Um, it was sunny. There were like, I think. summer school was in session, so kids. were like throwing Frisbee at the oval, and there were like kids picnicking in. the main quad. And I just remember it. felt so ideal idyllic. particularly juxtaposed against how. horrible San Francisco was that day um. that I was like. this is where I want to go. Like my. parents have been spending all this time. talking about college, this seems like a.

fantastic college. So back then I wanted. to be a lawyer. So there's this photo of. me on that road trip in front of the law. school at Stanford and I'm like yeah, this is where I'm going to I'm going to. go and be a lawyer. I had seen A Few. Good Men, you know the Yeah. Tom Cruise. movie. Yeah. I thought being a lawyer. was so cool cuz you get to like really. get the people like these intense. arguments. I think I I I always remember. that even when I applied for college, I. applied early to Stanford as a result.

But uh the the lawyer thing I kind of. grew out of. For a while the American. dream involved home ownership. And I. have mixed feelings about it to be. honest because 401(k)s are fantastic and. in particular if if an employer offers a. 401(k) with a built-in match and they're. matching your contributions, you know, that that's free money. I think there. are a couple of problems with. traditional credit cards. One is Was.

Robin Hood the story ever a part of your. early life or was that just a name that. stuck out as a name in and of itself? Yeah. Did you watch the cartoon when you grew. up or did you read the book? I did. Yeah. No, I I watched the cartoon. I was a big. fan of that and of course Men in Tights. uh was was another great one. Yeah. The. origin of Robin Hood the name was you. know, the finance industry had a bad rap. in the in the early part of the last.

decade. Mhm. Still does really. Still. does. So um. you know, I. my my girlfriend uh Selina. uh my wife now but my girlfriend at the. time, she was kind of like. she started dating me. I was this. entrepreneur. I had this idea. And. she had to kind of explain to her. friends what I was doing. And And she. was like a doctor and medical researcher. at the time. So, it's a very. concrete thing, you know? Her friends.

were mostly researchers and doctors. So, she was like, "Well, uh. Vlad, you know, he's in finance." But, then they'd be like this groan, like, "Oh, you know, they thought I was some. kind of investment banker or something.". She's like, "No, no, no, but not that. kind of finance. They're like the Robin. Hood of finance. They're trying to help. the little guy giving them tools to to. invest and manage their money.". And so, when we were kind of coming up. with the name, that was a name that that. we got excited by. And there were a. couple of other names, too. Like, uh we.

thought about naming the company Omaha, actually. And uh. we got pretty close to that one. And in. hindsight, you know, Warren Buffett and. Charlie Munger were were never big fans. of Robin Hood. They were They were kind. of like crapping on us from time to time. publicly. So, sometimes I think if we. had named the company Omaha, maybe we. wouldn't have had that element. I'd also. never been to Omaha. So, that kind of. like uh that sealed it for me. So, Yeah. Robin Hood was a very. controversial name. And I think that's.

what made it powerful because you either. love it or you're kind of like repulsed. by it to some degree. But, it's not. boring. It doesn't sound like a normal. finance company. sound like a finance company. And And. And I think in hindsight, that was a. really good thing because. it's just memorable. And it's like. emotionally gripping. And the name. itself kind of tells you a lot about. what the company stands for and what the. products should like help you achieve. Yeah. How old were you when you first.

started investing? Yeah, you know, it it. ties into what we were talking about. earlier. I was at home during the summer. cuz, you know, my parents were working. and I spent a lot of time with. computers. Um. and one of the early things I discovered. was like building a portfolio on Yahoo. Finance, actually. And. this was 1997 late '90s. Wow, really, yeah. So, during the. dot-com boom when somehow.

I don't even know how I came across. this, but I was building a portfolio of. companies that I recognized like. Yahoo, 3Com which made the Palm Pilot, one of. the first consumer PDAs at the time. PDAs, oh my gosh, that Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember PDAs. Um well ahead of their time, right? Yeah, very. I did decently well. In. hindsight, everyone was doing well on. all those stocks for quite a long time. cuz it was the the dot-com bubble. But,

um. my parents basically saw an opportunity. to motivate me to do well on the SAT to. qualify for this camp that that we were. talking about earlier. So, basically. they were like. if you get above uh. I think it was like a 1,300 on the SAT, we will let you invest with like the. dollar amount of your score. It was. something like that. And so, you know, I. was like very motivated by this. Um.

And so, when when I got my 1370 and my. dad and I kind of he funded an E*TRADE. account for me and I started investing. No way. Do you remember your first. investment? Yep. Yeah. Uh I bought 3Com, the the. company that made the Palm Pilot. Yeah. My feeling was that this device was so. interesting and they had started giving. them out to my parents who by that point. were working at the World Bank. Mhm. And. I was like, all right, well.

if if the World Bank is using them, this. must be a company that, you know, is is. growing and they'll probably be around. for for a while. And plus the device was. just super cool. You know, pretty pretty soon after my. dad brought it home, he didn't know how. to use it, so I just took it and started. playing with it. So, um and actually. through that I learned a lot about. investing because what happened was. there was a spin-off. So, first it. started at as 3Com, but then this Palm. Pilot business was growing and they spun.

it off. Uh so, then I had two stocks and. then I started getting the prospectuses. in the mail and the voting documents and. I learned all about like shareholder. proxy voting and and all of this stuff. that a normal 12-year-old probably. wouldn't. wouldn't uh have occasion to learn. about, but because I was invested, I. actually like. felt compelled to learn more. So, yeah, I I think that really set me off. on a lifetime of learning about.

investing in finance. Yeah, how much how. much did you make or lose? At first I. was I was up quite a bit. Then in 2000, I think my my portfolio dropped to. maybe like 20 30% of what I started. with. And then it I think it it probably. took another 10 years beyond that for. for that portfolio to be in the green. again. Oh, wow. But I mean, I would say. it's the great thing about getting. started young in general, not just for. me, you have plenty of time to to.

actually like make up for the mistakes. and. you know, compounding over a long period. of time corrects a lot of mistakes. So, I think generally speaking, the earlier. you can get started in investing, the. better. Yeah, that's it's fascinating. hearing about your own investing journey. and starting at 12 is is pretty young. I. mean, that's that's pretty impressive. that you were able to. compute and factor that in. Have you. ever taken an IQ test? Like do you know. your IQ? I have not. No. Okay, yeah. I'm just see I was.

intrigued. Yeah. Just based on. everything you've been saying, I'm just. like it's it's rare that I've I've met. someone who's who's felt that they've. always excelled since an early age. Like. that's not as common an experience. anymore. Yeah. I don't know if you meet. people like that. I mean, I do think. that. Stanford in particular uh is is kind of. a interesting amalgamation of people. So, uh. you have. a lot of people from like. diverse modest backgrounds uh.

that come to Stanford and usually those. people have like excelled academically, which is pretty amazing. And then you. also have people that uh. come from like. wealthy families from all over the. world. Yeah, I think some people. consider that to be not ideal. Like. maybe it should all be merit-based and. everything. But I I think it actually. has worked fairly well because what.

happens is. um. the the folks from modest means that. have like really high horsepower get to. make connections. And you make. connections with all these people and it. kind of unlocks business opportunities. for you. So, you know, a lot of the. folks that I met. in my undergrad and the different types. of people, I think at the time I kind of. didn't recognize this, but they ended up. helping me in my business career either. because they became journalists that.

like helped tell the story of Robinhood. or they joined venture capital firms and. they became. uh indirectly or directly investors in. Robinhood or they they advised us with. certain things. I think everyone is so. diffuse in general because people people. grow up in different places, but like. college is one of those moments that. people get brought together and you do. in in in a place like Stanford in. particular get to encounter a lot of a.

lot of really special people. And you. know, when I came to Stanford. I I actually had no conception of going. into business. You know, that I kind of. stumbled into that later. By the time I. got to college, I was interested in. theoretical physics. That was like my. passion because I was consumed by this. question of like why are the laws of the. universe the way they are? Mhm. I I had. read about relativity when I was in high. school and I was just like.

the the first time I read like the you. know, Einstein's book of special. relativity, it just blew my mind and I. had to read it like six or seven times. to. figure out what was going on, you know? Um. and then I you know, you try to. understand more and deeper. Um. And the question that really motivated. me was like. why are why why do the laws of gravity. look like this, but like all of the. subatomic particles like all all the.

laws around particle physics look. different and is there one theory that. is basic that unifies both of them? This. this sort of like unification of quantum. gravity was this topic that really. interested me. So I I came to Stanford. to study that and that's kind of what. what pushed me into into eventually. doing math and and going to UCLA to. study math with with a professor named. Terry Tao. But like if you think about. that group of people, the folks at. Stanford who come to study theoretical.

physics, um. and you don't do that because there. there's very little money in it. particularly back then, right? This was. like pre data science and. applied machine learning. Um. So yeah, actually by by the time I I got. to that point, I was looking around and. I'm like, "Wow, I'm I'm the dumbest. person here. These are just I'm. surrounded by like some of the smartest. people I've ever met." Wow, and then and. how did you get distracted from that.

pursuit? Uh I was here at UCLA studying. math. and two things happened. Um. the number one thing was when I decided. to go to graduate school. and uh. I I kind of I think my bubble of the. academic world kind of burst a little. bit because I had this. romantic notion that. you would kind of spend all of your time. thinking about difficult problems and.

just like being creative. It's almost. like being an artist. Like maybe there's. not much money in it, but you spend a. lot of your time just like. practicing your craft, right? But then I. I was given this book. It was called. like The Mathematician's Survival Guide. And it was like chapters about how to. deal with the administration and the. bureaucracy of the graduate department, how to advocate yourself with for for. yourself with the department chair, how. to make sure that you get like a good. research fellowship so you don't have to.

spend all of your time teaching. undergraduate classes. And I think at. that point I was like, "Oh man, like. this is like a career and it's not like. the career that I wanted." Another thing. happened at the same time. So, my first. month in grad school was September of. 2008. And Lehman Brothers went under that. month. It was It was the start of the. global financial crisis. You and I are. basically the same age, I think, born in.

'87, right? Yeah, '87. Yeah. This was kind of like. uh. uh. maybe for you, for me certainly, like my. uh. the the folks that graduated in my year. of college, some of them went to finance. and some of them even went to work at. Lehman Brothers. And it was sort of like. 1 month after they joined, you know, there was like photographs of them. carrying their stuff out of the offices.

in boxes, right? So, yeah, that that was. a a tough time for for a lot of people. A lot of my friends' parents lost their. jobs that year. So, it was the global. financial crisis. And, um. Yes, so somewhat oddly, my good friend. from college, whose name was Baiju. Bhatt, who I ended up starting Robinhood. with, he had gotten a job in finance. kind of on a whim. And and he managed to. convince me that this time was the best. time to start a finance company. And of.

course, I wasn't like super committed to. my PhD path because of of all the other. stuff I mentioned. So, I was like, "You know what? This sounds like an interesting problem. Let's let's see if we can do something. here." So, we rented a little house in. South San Francisco, in the South. Mission. Um. where we were paying like, uh, $300 a. month in rent. Uh, we're all living. together. Uh, I had to take care of this lady's. cats, which was why the rent was so.

cheap. That was kind of my first. experience with entrepreneurship. What. attracted me to it was kind of the same. thing that attracted me, um about math. and and physics. It was the act of creating something. with. you didn't really have to. listen to anyone telling you what to do. Uh, you could use your entire mental. faculties and your creativity to like. determine your own success and your.

outcomes. You know, just like a couple. of people who are really passionate and. committed could build something and, you. know, actually use it as a vehicle to. sustain themselves economically. So, um. that idea, when I kind of discovered it, and I never really like thought of. myself as an entrepreneur before. I. mean, it it wasn't really something that. was common in the East Coast, to be. honest, or in Bulgaria. I mean, you had. some, um. but not technology entrepreneurship.

really. And then when I kind of started. doing it, and I started like programming. and writing code, then I just like found. the whole thing really intoxicating. So, um. even though we didn't have success, it. basically our first idea failed within a. year, um. I just kind of knew that that I wanted. to do it. So, that that gave me the. confidence to. drop out of of UCLA, start something a. little bit different, and it was uh.

it was the third idea that that we had. that led to Robinhood, and that was kind. of the one that really worked. I think. that the actual experience and the. mindset of an entrepreneur. just like resonated with me very, very. deeply, and I was having so much fun, like unlike anything else that I had. done, um that I I just knew I had to. keep doing it. Yeah, I mean, democratizing investing is such a. at least at the time as well was such an. ambitious goal. to think about trying to get.

the average person to be able to have. access to something that wasn't. accessible to them just a few years. before, especially in a place that. seemed volatile. You needed a lot of. capital to get started. I want to do a. bit of investing basics for people who. are listening, who may or may not be. using your platform already, and want to. understand a bit more about it. If. someone's. sitting there going, and I remember. being this person, so I remember 2013, I'd just left the monastery that I lived. in for 3 years, and I'd gone back into. the world of work, and I had a mentor.

who told me exactly which. uh crypto to invest in in 2013. Which. one did he say? Well, at the time he was. like. Dogecoin? No, no, it definitely wasn't. At the time it was like um Ethereum, Lithium, like Oh, yeah. Litecoin, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so he was he was. mentioning all these places. And I. remember in 2013 with. very little capital, very little. investment knowledge. You see, now if. someone said my uh mentor and uh what.

what did you call him? Your guru? Yeah, yeah, mentor, yeah. If if now. someone's like, "Oh, my guru told me the. which cryptocurrency to uh invest in." I. would be like, "Hey, you should be a. little skeptical of this mentor." But in. 2013, that was actually like uh I should. have listened. before the space got uh got a little. a little corrupted before the the. pretenders came in. Yeah, no, he'd been successful in tech. investing and things for years and. Yeah.

I I'd met him. He was I was what? 26 at. the time. He was 55. Oh, wow. Okay. he you know, he'd he'd been around. He. was he was a very smart, thoughtful. thoughtful person. I didn't really. understand anything about investing and. and I grew up in a family where we. didn't have a lot growing up. There. wasn't I didn't see my parents invest. I. didn't I didn't see them have that. And. so I remember being like. he was just like, "Just put $1,000. Put. $100 into each of 100 pounds." I was in. London. So he goes, "Just put $1,000. pounds into $100 pounds into each and. just see how it goes." And I remember.

being so risk averse that I didn't even. want to put $1,000 pounds into it. And. that's probably all I had at that time. I was working a job where I made 31,500. pounds a year at Accenture. Mhm. And I. could. in the UK, right? in the UK, yeah. I could have put $1,000. pounds in. I didn't. If I did, I it. would have been a great investment. Um. but the question I'm asking is a lot of. people don't invest because they don't. have enough knowledge, but they also. feel they don't have enough money. At. what point should you feel confident and.

comfortable to start investing? What. amount? And. yeah, let's start there. Yeah, I mean, a. lot of Robinhood customers start with as. little as $10. And I think that was. actually the innovation that Robinhood. unlocked. So, before we came into the. mix, uh you used to have to pay a trading. fee. And if you started in the UK, you. probably paid a trading fee at 2013 as. well. I mean, still do. The that market. hasn't gone zero commission yet. Let's. say you have to pay $10 per per trade.

Well, that's, you know, uh if if you make a $100 investment, that's 10% of the of the actual value in. the investment. And if you want to sell. it, you know, then that gets to 20% for. the round trip. And so, it doesn't. really make sense to start with $100. uh in that sense because you have to. count on many years of appreciation to. just pay for your transaction fee. But. if you lower the fees to zero, you could.

start with any amount. Which is what you. did. Exactly. And and that was kind of. our big uh. that was that was sort of one of the. three big innovations that I think made. Robinhood possible and really made it. take off. It's eliminating the. commissions and lowering the account. minimums to zero. Because a lot of. brokers also had account minimums. You. couldn't even open an account unless you. had $2,000 or sometimes more in there. We said, "You know what? We really. wanted And and the reason, by the way, that um.

they had these account minimums was. these companies were not uh automated. enough to service small accounts. They. would just lose money on them. And so, we said to ourselves, "Well, it it would be. uh. it would not really uphold the mission. of a company named Robinhood to have an. arbitrary account minimum. We should. make it zero. We should hold ourselves. to that standard and we just should like. incent ourselves to make the business as.

efficient as possible because I think. that would be the long-term correct way. to build the business. Like let's point. everything towards uh creating a forcing. function for us to be more efficient and. more automated and adopt technology. more aggressively and be the first to do. it relative to to the market. And you. know, a company where everything is. pointed towards using technology to. lower the cost of things, make things as. usable as possible and as automated as.

possible, that seems like a long-term. robust structure for a company. So we. kind of like that, but yeah, a lot of. customers start with just $10 or even. less. And what what would you say are. the three biggest mistakes new investors. make when they don't know what they're. doing? I think it this is a little bit. strange given like so much of Robinhood. at least in the public realm is. you know, meme stocks and meme trading, but I I think probably the biggest.

mistake one can make is buying something. just because someone on the internet. like thinks that you should buy it and. is posting it. Um. I'm I'm personally a big believer in. thinking for yourself. And like buying something because people. on social media are saying it's a good. idea, it's just like. kind of anathema to me. Like sure, use. it as a signal, but like make your own. decision and and kind of think through. it yourself.

and don't just rely on. the opinions and commentary of of. others. Mhm. Any others? Big mistakes. that people make? I think just like. waiting to get started. Mhm. You know, now particularly with the tools, it. there there's, you know, with with. Robinhood kind of entering the market, not just Robinhood, but most of the. competitors that at least survive in the. space, there's no maintenance fees, no. kind of.

onboarding fees. Keeping money in the. savings account, where in particular now. with high rates, you know, a lot of the. banks are offering you 0%. So, your your. your money's just losing money sitting. in savings, not not doing the simple. things to optimize I I think are. mistakes. And there is so much free. content out there on the internet, on. YouTube, and. um. you know, that just spending even 30. minutes to to get educated and actually.

just like getting started and opening an. account and creating the habit of. investing, even if you don't think you. have much money, the technology is there. so that you could actually do the exact. same things with. $1 as you can with thousands of dollars. And you know, through another thing. Robinhood pioneered, fractional shares. You can invest any. dollar amount in pretty much any stock. You don't need a whole share. So, one of.

the first things that we did, which we. thought was very cool, was uh. you have, for example, companies whose. share prices are. hundreds of thousands of dollars per. share, like Berkshire Hathaway A shares, for example. And uh you know, they they. would almost pride themselves on having. the share price that's inaccessible to. normal people. And not everyone could be. invited to this club of like. shareholders. And they have the annual. shareholder meeting. But, you know, Robinhood figured out how to break up.

these stocks into pieces. You can buy a. dollar of it. And you know, then you had. all of these retail investors showing up. at the shareholder meetings. And I think. that made those guys very angry actually. in hindsight. Um but it was very. satisfying. you even pull that off? Like how how's. that even possible? Yeah, it was a big. technical challenge. Yeah, big technical. challenge. Um. basically, what happens is the company. has to keep inventory in all of these. names, and you imagine like.

Let's say, I mean, the way that this. works is probably a little bit more. complicated, but to simplify it, let's. say you want to buy a dollar of. Berkshire Hathaway, well, then we would. essentially have to keep inventory of a. whole share, and then allocate. internally different pieces of it. And. then, you know, when the total sum. exceeds one share, then we go out and. buy another one. So, we're kind of like. managing this portfolio of,

you know, right around one share in in. every instrument. Yeah. Yeah. And then we can just do that through. technology. I mean, we have great. engineers and data scientists and. brokerage experts that that can manage. the system. If you had to say that for a new. investor, there's certain factors they. should understand about a stock before. investing, what would you say are the. three key things that they should know? An amount of information they should. have before they go in and put any. amount in. I guess without giving people.

too specific investment advice because I. Yeah, I'm kind of not uh not really. allowed to do that. Um I'm a big. proponent in investing in companies that. create products that you like and and. use. You know, if if you use the. product, if you think that. the company that's making those products. is improving the products, and if you're. bullish on. it could continuing to be useful, and.

you think it's trending in the right. direction, um. that that's been sort of my philosophy. It's how I got started too. And I think. that's why if you look at the Robinhood. customer base and and we're now. publishing the stocks that our customers. um. are investing in most, uh we call it the. Robinhood Investors Index, it tends to. be consumer companies that make. products. Um. They're sort of like heavy in. innovation. So for example, Nvidia,

Tesla, Apple. These are some of the most. commonly uh. invested stocks. And it's because. our customers are younger, they believe. in the future, they tend to be early. adopters of technology and innovation. They believe in artificial intelligence, clean energy, electric vehicles. Um. So yeah, that those tend to be like. both sort of like some of the most held. instruments and some of the first.

instruments that uh that people kind of. buy into. We We also have a product. first trade recommendations. And it's. difficult for the service to recommend. individual stocks, but for someone that. actually comes in and they say, you. know, I just want to invest. I don't. really know I don't want to pick my own. stocks. Over time we're increasingly. getting better and better equipped to. serve that customer. So now, you know, you can just answer a couple of. questions and we'll we'll recommend a.

diversified portfolio of ETFs, explain. to you what all the pieces are, and then. you'll kind of see how it all works. mechanically. And I think sometimes just. like going through the process of making. a trade, it's much simpler than like. reading a book on it. I like to say that. it's like playing a violin. You're not. going to learn to play a violin really. well by like reading a book on how to. play the violin. Maybe if you're already. really, really good and you're trying to. get a little bit better, understanding.

the theory behind it is is going to. help, but otherwise it's just sort of. like pick up the thing and start. practicing and you'll get better the the. more you do it. One of the things I. became interested in when I was an. undergrad is options trading. A lot of. my students my year were applying to be. options traders. That was like a. before I went fully electronic, that was. a job that people had, right? And there. was this book. like. options, futures, and derivatives.

Uh it was called something like that by. Hull and it was like this thick. dictionary explaining how all these. option strategies worked. And I just. kind of imagine. you know, if someone had to understand that book. before kind of like. going into options trading or. discovering it for the first time, um. I think that would be just like an. incomprehensible barrier. But like you. build up some intuition for these things. by doing it and it's sort of like makes.

you more motivated to read the. literature and it also sort of like. gives you more real-world knowledge than. than you could ever get from just. reading. So I think just like getting. started and doing it is is the most. important thing. It's it's a skill like. playing a sport or or playing a music. instrument more than just like an. academic pursuit. Yeah, how many of you. users do you find going beyond just that. first trade? Do you have a percentage of. users that you know go beyond.

their first or second trade and kind of. continue on and build and grow versus. like they tried something out and kind. of just said, "Oh, this is not for me. I. don't know what I'm doing." With. consumer technology, there's sort of a. funnel for everything. You know, there's. people downloading the app. Not everyone. who downloads the app actually ends up. creating an account. Not everyone that. creates an account funds it. Um and you. know, we're definitely focused on making. sure. that we have a really good funnel, that. it's clean, that people who, uh,

you know, enter are getting exactly what. they want. I'd venture to say that our. funnel's probably much more efficient. than those of our competitors. Um, that. said, there are things that certain. customers want that we're not like ideal. at offering now. So, for example, if you. want an advisor, a lot of people want a. a financial advisor. They want someone. to manage their money for them, tell. them exactly what to do. Um,

we don't have a great comprehensive. solution for that yet. Although we're. working on it, I think we will get there. eventually. Would it be AI advisors or I think AI's. certainly will be involved. Um, if not, you know, replacing the advisor, certainly augmenting and giving them. kind of superhuman capabilities and the. ability to service more customers. Um, but yeah, I I think that's certainly one. of the most interesting applications of. AI in financial services.

But, uh, yeah, right now the platform is. like very self-directed. It's for folks that want to be in. control of their money and like, you know, like the the most hardcore. Robinhood users are the ones that. really are just kind of like. optimizing everything, you know, they're. optimizing their taxes, they're. optimizing all of their fees and. commissions and we we do attract some of. those people that are really want to be. hands-on with everything because it's a. very easy to use tool. We have we tend.

to have the lowest pricing across all, uh, services that we offer. We sort of. like from the very beginning have, uh, built with like the self-directed retail. customer in mind. Mhm. So, I think for that customer, there's probably no better fit. If you. want to be in control over. every aspect of your finances and you. actually in some cases are openly. distrustful of other people telling you.

what to do and there there's a lot of. people like that. They're like, "I don't even want to listen to a. financial advisor cuz I feel like. they're just going to. talk down on me in a in a good scenario. or rip me off in like a bad scenario.". And those people are like uh. yeah, like. they they tend to gravitate toward. Robinhood. At a time when investing's. becoming. more talked about, more diverse, there's. more options, I want I want to get your personal. opinion on people thinking about stocks. versus people thinking about property,

for example. Like which of course is far. more expensive, but I feel like we've. seen a generational shift from people. wanting to own their homes, purchase. their homes, get a mortgage versus now. people moving towards renting more. Are. you seeing that trend and are you seeing. people move towards stocks? Are you. still. What what's your personal take on people. choosing between buying and renting. versus using that capital elsewhere? For. a while the American dream involved. homeownership. Yes. Yeah. Right? Um.

and I have mixed feelings about it to be. honest because. there there's a lot of like corporate. interests that are pushing for more. homeownership. I mean, if you're a bank. and you're giving people mortgages, you. know, a lot of people uh criticize. leverage in the stock market. Um but if. you think about the amount of leverage. in. a 30-year fixed mortgage, Mhm. right? It's like. ungodly. Uh. right? You end up paying much more uh in.

interest than you know, even the the. principal uh sometimes. Yeah, I mean, again, without without. getting into investing advice, uh real estate I think has been tempting. for people because like you can see it, you can touch it. It's sort of like this. thing that you can use and it feels like. an investment even though it it really. isn't um especially when you give it. when you take into account all the fees. like the brokering fees on either side.

of the transaction, property taxes, maintenance. Meanwhile, you know, in the. stock market you you have it on your. phone now, commission-free, some of the. lowest fees, access to like the widest. variety of companies that are really. even though it's the US market by and. large the US market's increasingly. global. Um. I I think and I wrote this article back. in 2021. uh. investing in the global markets is is. really the new American dream. And. actually during the hyperinflation.

episode in Bulgaria in the '90s. my grandparents um didn't have access to. any tools that allowed them to invest in. equities. So uh my grandfather who is uh. a medical doctor on Navy vessels in. Bulgaria. he had like a contact on the port side. who would basically give him access to. copper cookware. So he would take his. Bulgarian levs from his pension and get. copper cookware. We had this closet they.

had their this closet in their apartment. that was just full of. copper cookware and that was like that. was their Robinhood app. Like that's. where they would. self-custody their wealth. I mean right. now you can buy any stock uh you can buy. crypto. We started offering crypto in. 2018 for uh. uh. the lowest fees in the industry. And you. can get, you know, you can get access to ETFs. You can have.

gold ETFs. So really in your pocket you. can diversify and uh hold pretty much. any asset. And you can even do real. estate through the form of REITs and and. other publicly traded ETFs. Yeah, you. can get exposure to that asset class, but like real estate investing in terms. of buying a primary home, yeah, it's it's uh. I think the story behind that is uh is. difficult. It's like very illiquid, high. transaction fees. You're kind of like. picking.

uh a particular neighborhood. So, even. if the global real estate market does. well, something could happen to that. neighborhood, you know? They could build. a power plant next door and you're kind. of in in big trouble. So, even though I'm not making any. uh investment recommendations, I think. it's. yeah, it's it's it's hard to kind of. like equate those two. And I think. really the future is going much more. toward investing in in publicly traded. stocks and cryptocurrencies. Yeah. Yeah,

that's why I wanted to ask your opinion. So, yeah, definitely not official. advice. I I read an amazing stat that. said the next generation is set to. inherit an estimated 72 trillion dollars. over the next 20 years. with 27 trillion going to millennials. alone. Yes. And that blows my mind. because first of all, I'm like, who are. those millennials? That's a big wealth. transfer. Yeah. wealth transfer. When someone like you. hears that, what goes through your mind? What goes through my mind is there's a.

big opportunity for Robinhood. There's a. big opportunity for us because we've got. more millennial app users than basically. all of the incumbent brokerage. competitors put together. Even more so, Gen Z. I think if you look at Gen Z, over 60% of. our competitive set just uses Robinhood. Um. and so we already have relationships. with these folks. Um. and we're offering more. Like we don't. just offer stocks. We have an awesome. credit card. We have among the best.

retirement products, an amazing. retirement product with the first. built-in match uh in an IRA. We have a. high yield product and we're adding just. more and more over time. And we're making it really easy to. transfer your account if you're, you. know, a customer of a legacy brokerage to. Robinhood so you can take advantage of. all these amazing offers and and rates. and the user experience. So, um, yeah, I I think that.

we'd like to put ourselves in the. position where Robinhood is like the. home for all of these assets and I think. uh I think we're rapidly getting there. What do you think you've done. differently to attract. those groups and those communities into. your space? Like what what what's been. the big difference? I'd like to say that. uh the way we communicate and the. marketing is a big part of it, but I. think the biggest thing is um. like the the economics, getting rid of.

account minimums and trading. commissions, removing the friction. These are all barriers that. um. prevented people. Yeah, I I think I. mentioned to you earlier that, you know, before Robinhood, if you had a hundred. dollars, it would have just been. nonsensical to invest. The fees would. have just ripped apart your portfolio. And, you know, a lot of times there were. barriers that prevented you from get. getting started in the form of minimum. account. balance requirements as well. So, we got.

rid of all of those and basically that. allowed a whole bunch of customers that. were previously underserved to be able. to open accounts. Um and, you know, unfortunately, a lot of those customers. were from disadvantaged historical. demographics. and, you know, I I think it's a great. thing that we've now kind of opened the. doors to basically everyone to open up. an account and become an investor. Yeah, similar to the to the property question, I wanted to know your take on.

traditional retirement accounts like the. 401k? Like in comparison to. the more aggressive. aggressive growth strategies in stocks? Like what's your what's your take there. again from an opinion base? Yeah, so. 401ks are fantastic. for those that you know, are privileged. have an employer that offers one. And in particular, if if an employer. offers a 401k with a built-in match and.

they're matching your contributions, you. know, that that's free money. So that. that value prop is very very strong. But. you know, not everyone has access to. that. And so what we've done is. and actually I think over time. uh. users and kind of end consumers can be. less reliant on individual employers. And it used to be that. you would have a job and you could like. count on that employer's pension to take.

care of you. You know, maybe you'd work. at the same employer for 20 30 years. Then you'd retire and you would kind of. subsist on the the pension plan. And then of course social security kind. of filled in some of the gaps, but I'd. say the future of social security is. very much shrouded in cloud of. uncertainty, right? So I think the the upshot is people have. to take it upon themselves to to be. responsible for their own finances and.

their own retirement. I don't think that. you can rely on the government. I don't. think you can rely on any one employer. Many people aren't sticking around at a. single employer for very long now, right? And so what's important is having. these investment accounts not tied to. the employer and actually tied to the. user. You're kind of carrying around. your your retirement with you. That's. why we launched our IRA products, your.

individual retirement accounts. So, we. offer Roth and individual retirement. accounts. If you're a Robinhood Gold. subscriber, you get a 3% match on. contributions. So, basically you might not have an. employer matching you, but Robinhood. will match out of our own economics. In. a world where you can't rely on a single. employer and you have these accounts. that should travel with you, I think. that it's much more future-proof and the. product's really been resonating. You.

know, we had end of 2023, which was the. first year that we launched our. retirement products, we had about 1.7. billion in assets under custody. And that's gone up uh. more than 6x since the beginning of the. year. So, now we have close to 10. billion in assets in in retirement. accounts at Robinhood. Was that was that. a more recent development or was that. something that was always part of the. plan? We had always talked about. offering retirement products. Um. there's just I mean the the financial.

space is so big and there's so much that. we want to do. um. that. the like order of things becomes. important and which. what's first and you know, there there's. sort of like always a balancing act. between innovative new features that you. don't find anywhere else but Robinhood. um and those are things like our 24-hour. market offering, which allows you to. trade stocks 24 hours a day. And we were. the first to market with that for.

individual stocks like Tesla and Nvidia. and Apple. Things like retirement. accounts that others offer, but you. know, we we'd have to kind of like catch. up and add them. And of course, we try. to put our innovative twist like the. matches onto them. And then there's just. like scaling the infrastructure and that. includes things like customer support. and just making sure that the. infrastructure gets more reliable and. sophisticated to handle more. Um which, you know, as we're expanding globally. and servicing other customers in.

in in different countries is also a a. giant area of investment for us. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because I. feel like. you're seeing all these new disruptive. platforms, technologies give people so. much. uh opportunity that wasn't accessible. before, but often they command a. even more scrutiny and uh challenge than. banks or any anything else did in the in. previous years. I was wondering what.

your take on the GameStop movie was. I. don't know if you saw it. Did you get to. see it or I saw some clips of it. Okay, you haven't watched the full. thing. No. I mean, I saw the clips that. I was in, of course. I wanted to I. wanted to see how I was portrayed. Uh. certainly not out of vanity or anything. like that. Did they have to ask. permission for that? No. It was kind of the weirdest thing. You know, your likeness and name can. just be kind of taken and monetized, and. I don't think the movie made very much. money, but um.

yeah, they certainly didn't ask for. permission. Right. And then when you saw. the clips of you in, how did you feel? Like how did that I thought they kind of. got my mannerisms right. I mean, it made sense cuz I think they. probably looked at interviews that I'd. done, and you know, they they basically. had figured out sort of like my way of. speaking, and. uh. you know, the the actor that played me. was very good-looking guy. You know, the. Winter Soldier. Um I think they had to. kind of make him look a little uglier so. he could he could more accurately.

portray me, but hey, I'm not. complaining. Um the plot was obviously. like complete fabrication. I think um. people really liked this whole. conspiracy theory thing, and you know, there was this like conspiracy theory of. collusion floating floating around. particularly at that time. So, um I don't think they could actually. like. uh. explicitly. say the conspiracy theory, but they were. just evoking it in all sorts of ways.

So, those parts were fictional, but I think. they got my mannerisms right. And then I I mean I saw you do at the. time you did tons of interviews. I think. you did a Clubhouse with Elon and Yeah. There were there were a bunch of. different things that I I I saw that you. did at the time. What does it feel now. reflecting back on that time? Cuz I. imagine that. there was so much scrutiny, there was so. much conspiracy, there was How how have. you felt about it since then? Like now. you can look backwards on it, I guess, as opposed to at that time where you.

you're looking right at it. What's changed over the last 3 years? Yeah, you know, from time to time I do. look at like some old clips um. of of my interviews back then and. you know, I kind of feel bad for myself. because I I was a I was like a little. kid, you know, it just. the company was private. Um. I was always particularly at that time, I was just very focused on getting the. technology to work and I didn't really.

want to be in the public eye and I I. certainly. didn't see myself as, you know, some kind of political figure. wrapped up in some kind of political. quarrel over investing or regulation. I. think what happened was uh. you know, GameStop, for better or worse, put Robinhood sort of like. firmly into the zeitgeist, right? Before. it was a little fringe. I mean, we still. had a lot of customers, but we we. weren't.

we weren't like a politicized brand. Um. And I think at that point I really had. to learn really quickly not just how to. like build technology and lead teams to. do it, but also how to represent the. company and. you know, it's like. you can see in those interviews, I'm. kind of like reading a script and. that that was my approach to interviews. for a while. I was like reading my. points and trying to communicate the. facts of the message. But um you know,

now now I know now that I'm much more. wise and mature and uh. still not nearly as uh as experienced as. you. You've probably done thousands of. these, right? But. it doesn't really resonate with our. audience to just like read the facts. You have to. give some emotion and some feeling and. have some empathy and. you know, you have there there has to be. a little bit more. So, I've I've had to. kind of learn all that stuff and uh.

nowadays just look incredibly. inauthentic and robotic and um. I think the. the more time has passed, the more I'm. kind of trying to. be as authentic as possible in my. appearances and I think that had to be. had to be something that I learned um. in doing so, especially in that time. where the stakes were super high and we. were about to go public and. you know, you have like all sorts of. advisers and.

lawyers and you know, professionals that. are trying to protect me and the firm. saying, "Don't say this. Be careful not. to say this. Be careful when you're kind. of making this point that you don't make. people think that you're actually. meaning this." So, any of if you're kind. of running the algorithm through your. head of like what you can't say and what. you what you should say and how what. you're saying could be kind of like. interpreted. hearing about it. Exactly. Yeah, eventually to to some. degree like. uh.

you practice enough and it becomes. second nature and you can kind of rip up. all the guidelines and be pretty. confident that you're doing the right. thing. But I think it has to be. authentic and back then I was just like. very inexperienced at all this stuff. I. sort of undervalued it and I think it. took a while for me to. get to like a basic level of competency. Yeah, no. I mean I think it's fair. I. think that every founder goes through. that journey of like you've been. building something in private in in a.

room or an office for so many years and. all of a sudden your company gets. notoriety in mainstream culture. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're having. to do things that you don't necessarily. set out to do as a founder. I feel like. even actors go through that where you're. just working on a movie on a set. Yeah. And then you have to go promote the. movie but. or or you're seen in public and. something impacts the movie and that. wasn't necessarily what you signed up. for. What were the actual ramifications. or consequences of all of that? Like. what actually how did that actually.

affect Robinhood apart from the cultural. propelling? Well, I think a lot of a lot. of people who were just like looking at. me at the time and maybe were. not Robinhood users themselves. Maybe. some of them were Robinhood users but. others were kind of thinking about it. and were aware of it. Um I think some. people got the impression that I just. like. maybe didn't care about our customers. Um I think that was the part that that. actually like pained me and kind of.

stayed with me over time. Uh they're. like oh look at him. He doesn't have any. emotions and he's just like talking. about these clearinghouse regulatory. requirements but he doesn't understand. the the pain that kind of customers went. through who wanted to. you know, buy GameStop or AMC or all. these other things. I mean like I. definitely understood the pain. That was. those were some of the most painful. sleepless nights for me going through. that whole uh. uh. ordeal. But yeah, my approach was always.

just um. uh I don't I don't want to like talk. about doing stuff. I like to do stuff. So, uh. I'm not going to like maybe maybe I'm. not going to be like super emotive with. my customers, but I'm just going to. build them great products that save them. tons of money and give them a great. experience so that they can learn to. invest and manage their money. I think. that was painful. Obviously, the. collusion narrative was painful because. it was like But it was never proven. There was no there's no like It was.

disproven. I mean, learning how to. communicate and. actually like um. to some degree like going through a. crisis and then surviving and then sort. of like learning from it and. um. building building back better so that. you don't actually repeat the same thing. again. I mean, Robinhood's had our share of. issues over the years. Like we. definitely haven't been perfect, but I.

mean, one thing I'm proud of is. they're all like we've made mistakes, but they're a they're a series of. original mistakes. So, we tend not to. make the, you know, same mistake twice. And so, like throughout all of these, we've just like built up a ton of scar. tissue and learnings and have been a. much stronger company. And I think all. of this all all of the crises, you know, I remember the dates, you know, it's. like Wow. you know, it's like January. 28th, 2021 or. December 12th, 2018 or.

March 2nd, 2020 right at the beginning. of COVID when we had a day-long trading. outage. So, you kind of remember all of. these events and kind of take different. things away from them, but um. I mean, at at the end of the day, we've. been a company for 10 years and you're. going to if if you're in a disruptive. space where. you're kind of challenging the status. quo and and trying to change things. Uh. Some people are.

Yeah, if some people are going to be. unhappy, right? And uh you have to have. thick skin to kind of get through that. Yeah, it's a it's an interesting. dynamic, isn't it? When when companies. are doing something for the first time, it's it's inevitable that there's going. to be. mistakes and mismanagement and. challenges. And I think And it's almost. like, you know, if if you're being too. careful, if you actually make zero. mistakes, you might not be successful. You're. probably not going to be successful.

because you're just like not pushing. hard enough. Like it's like he. At some point, not not taking any risk. is like the biggest risk of all, particularly in like a hot competitive. market. So, you just you have to know. the right amount. I think it's a it's. somewhat of a. a fine dance. But, it's it's it's. certainly not acceptable to like play. everything super safe in in the world of. business. And I guess the challenges because it's. dealing with people's money, it's it's even a more heightened There's.

a heightened sense of of safety. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and and people can be. very emotional about their money. Of course. I mean, it's especially if. people are putting large sums in. What. What were some of the biggest mistakes. that you felt and the lessons you. learned from them that were so pivotal. that you think would be useful for other. founders, for for customers to hear, for. for other people to just be aware of. like this is how you now look at it. versus at the time when you're like, well, we need to be risk per risk, try. things out. Designing our infrastructure.

uh. with scalability in mind from day one. probably would have saved us quite a bit. of grief because we've we've had to like. rewrite and like redo multiple times. The conventional wisdom is you don't. want to prematurely optimize anything. The Silicon Valley sort of like tombs. are littered with corpses of startups. that had perfect infrastructure and no. users, you know. So, it's always hard to do the. counterfactual on these things because. like.

you know, if we had if we had. over-invested in those things, maybe we. like wouldn't have customers and then. no problems but no customers, right? I. think we can end up being like. tormented by our past too much, so I. don't even I don't know how helpful it. is. Yeah, that's that's an interesting. take. I I can see why. I can definitely. see why. I mean, the only thing that. stood out to me was you saying that. your most difficult period was in 2022. when Robinhood's business took a hit.

amid the market downturn. Yeah, that's. true. And and I feel like. what what was so what was what was so. tough for you personally about that? I. mean, you've Yeah. Some people might. hear that and be like, "That's crazy. Like, how can that compare to GameStop, right?" I think the thing about GameStop. was it's like very acute difficulty. Um. you know, and it was like. almost like a roller coaster ride, you. know, it's like intense but it's over in. 3 minutes and it's kind of clear what.

you have to do to to get out of that. difficult situation. And you know, we. navigated it, we became a stronger. company. Um. 2022. was like a slower burn, right? And we. had just gone public in middle of 2021, kind of at the end of the window. The. window has kind of been basically shut. since then for IPOs, right? And we kind. of squeezed in right before things got. really bad. And so what happened was um.

you had this period where. uh. it became clear that inflation was. getting completely out of hand and that. freaked everyone out. Um and then it. became clear that the Fed was going to. hike rates. And we had kind of like. everyone was prepared for a multi-year. period of like zero rates. Um. and you know, to tame inflation, the. Fed, who hadn't really dealt with. inflation for 30 years, had to hike. rates up at the fastest pace in.

the past several decades. And what. happens was when. when rates go up, um. people typically invest less because. imagine if you can get 5% on your cash. just sitting there and the stock market. appreciates, you know, 7 to 10% each. year pre-tax, um. and you can get that 5% rate uh. without taking on market risk, that. becomes much more.

much more compelling relatively. So, you'll have less investing. And then. that's what we saw. Less people were. interested in opening up brokerage. accounts and investing for the first. time. And that was like our whole. business, you know, that was the core of. our business. And we didn't really have. anything for a high rate environment at. that time. And you know, there there was. some criticism of this when we went. public and some questions. You know, the. the analysts and investors would be. like, "Well, Robinhood, you've done. really well during COVID and during this.

extended period of zero rates, the. company has gone to 20 million users in. that time, but how are you guys going to. do in a. environment where the interest rates are. higher, you know? Is it is this just is. Robinhood a zero interest rate. phenomenon?" Um of course, you know, we. had answers to that, but until you prove. that, uh. people don't really believe you. And so, we we actually had to like. go through uh an incredibly challenging.

process of like changing the strategy of. the company, effectively re-founding the. company in 2022, um. when you know, the. the entire macro environment shifted. And I think we we did a really good job. I mean, within 6 months after that, we. had gone adjusted EBITDA positive. In. 2023, we had GAAP profitability at the. first time. We now have eight business. lines that are generating 100 million in.

revenue or more. So, the business is. very diversified. More than half of the. revenue is interest rather than. transactions. And now we're starting to get the. question, "Wow, like Robinhood's doing. so well in this high interest rate. environment. The Fed's going to cut. rates. What are you guys going to do. when when the Fed cuts the rates and. like you can't you can't have these like. high interest rate revenue streams. firing on all cylinders now." So, now I have to go backwards and and prove.

that. customers still would want to trade. options and crypto and equities. So, Yeah. Yeah, it was I I think it's been. interesting. Yeah, it's funny how it. just keeps oscillating between or. cycling, I guess. Well, the more times. you do that cycle, I I always felt like. when we were private, every time we. raised a new round of funding, we had to. kind of like re-prove ourselves to these. new investors that came in and just. didn't understand the company. Um but. then, you know, the longer we lasted as.

and we got up to like series H, I think, in private funding. And you know, by that point, the series A, B, C. investors had developed such a deep. understanding of the company. They They. had so much trust. And I think it's the. same with with a public company, or at. least I'd like to think so. You know, you pick your investors, your investors. pick you. And. the more cycles we go through, we are. building institutional knowledge as a. public company. And I do think that,

you know, the market is starting to to. recognize that, "Hey, maybe. this founding team, the management team. of this company knows what they're. doing. And the more cycles we go. through, I think the more we'll prove. that out. Yeah, and I think I read. somewhere where you were saying that. that time really changed how you looked. at being a CEO and a leader. And and. reprioritizing the company was What was. You You just talked there about almost. what you did in terms of building. product, diversifying. uh income streams, you know, having all.

of the portfolio of how people could. use. uh Robinhood, but what was that like for. you internally from a leadership. perspective? What changed as how you. about how you led? Yeah, so so there. were there was this uh exercise that I. would go through with uh. with some of my team where I would. imagine if uh. a new person came into the role as as. CEO. And I've told this story a couple. of times, and it It's It's not like.

I imagined myself being fired. I was. worried about that or anything like. that. But it was all almost like. Okay, this thought exercise of Let's say. I didn't come with any of the baggage of. like having founded the company and made. all the decisions to get us to this. point. If I could look at it from um. with a beginner's mind and just say, "Hey, I'm here. I'm seeing this company. This. is kind of the state of affairs. What would I do differently?" And you. know, I came up with a a bunch of things.

uh. that like a stereotypical like top CEO. coming in would would do differently. They would pull back on remote first and. get people in the office so they could. collaborate and work together in person. And even though I had turned Robinhood. into a remote first company not too long. before, I reversed my own decision. there, which was kind of tough from a. self-consistency standpoint. People have. a very hard time being inconsistent with. their prior selves. So I think that's.

like one mental barrier to get past. Um. another one was I just made this. realization that, you know, if you look. at our business, a lot of our revenue is generated by, you know, a relatively small component. of very active traders. And we actually weren't building. products specifically for them. And as a. matter of fact, we looked at kind of. this customer base um.

very deeply in 2022. And these folks. tend to be more sophisticated. So, actually when when the markets are. crashing or moving sideways, they tend. to actually be more resilient cuz they. can. deploy more sophisticated strategies. that can take advantage of all sorts of. market environments. And we saw what we saw was the more. active someone traded, ergo the more revenue they generated for. us, the less happy they were with. Robinhood.

So, so actually our most active. customers had like the least customer. satisfaction with the platform. So, then. when we kind of like grokked this, we were like, this is a five-alarm fire. Like, any healthy business, like, you. know, you don't have to be a Yeah. an. MBA from Wharton to realize that your. most valuable customers being like. unhappy with you is a big problem. So, um but what was remarkable was when we. kind of like shifted focus towards.

making these active trader traders. really, really happy, we fixed it like. that, like much faster than. I thought possible. I think within 6. months we had basically like. solved the problem. Yeah, it's kind of. interesting, a lot of introspection to. how we ended up sort of like ignoring. the active trader audience for for so. long. I think once we sort of like. refocused on that and. and really started treating them like. the important constituent part of the.

user base that they are, uh, the company just. started doing much better. I think by. and large that was the biggest part of. our of our turnaround as a company since. going public. Mhm. That's that's. fascinating. I mean to to discover that. your deepest users are unhappy. Yeah. It. must be like such a Yeah, and part of it. was like Robinhood was. historically very targeted very focused. on the first-timers. We want to be. someone's first brokerage account. We.

want to make it as easy as possible to. get started with $5, right? But what. happened was. um. one, a lot of the people that got. started with us then became really. sophisticated and like wanted more. advanced tools and had more specialized. needs but still loved Robinhood and. loved the simplicity and the ease of use. of the interface. But the other part was. if you think about our options trading. platform, for example, we're one of the.

few. very few that offer options trading for. no contract fees. Most of our. competitors charge 65 cents per options. contract. So if you trade 100 contracts, that's $65. That's real money. And. there's some active traders that you. know, spend thousands of dollars a month. on other platforms paying these contract. fees. So even if like the platform's not. really built for you, there's like a really strong economic.

incentive to use it. So you had a lot of. these like super active options traders. that were using Schwab or E*TRADE or. others. Maybe they're using their. charting from their other platform but. they're putting the trades in via. Robinhood and just to save fees. So. you know, we grew active traders. We. also had some using us because the the. economics were so good. Yeah. And in. that way we sort of like built up this. large active trader business. incidentally while building products for.

first-time novice investors. Mhm. Yeah, I mean, it it's so interesting that. since the beginning everything. everything you talked about from the. name, there's always been people who've. been disgruntled, slightly angry as you. said earlier, like this feeling of like, "Oh, these guys are doing something, you. know." Yeah. Has has that kind of like. has that kind of change now as a company. matures and like people see you become. established and not obviously. competitors, but when you look at the. people. who felt that way initially, do you find.

that founders are reaching out, you're. more connected to people and as as. you've become more established as well, or does it get lonelier as things go on? Well, I think in different ways it does. get lonelier, uh but I would say. in general, um. I think in the past couple of years, especially, we've like fixed more. problems than we've created, hopefully. Uh and so our customers generally have. been getting happier and happier, not. just the active traders, but.

uh you know, the great thing when you. fix things for active traders, they're. like power users of the platform, so the. customer experience for a more casual. user improves as well. So yeah, fortunately, you know, again, knock on. wood, uh. we we've been like we we've been. avoiding like major catastrophes in the. last few years. Um which, you know, the. last few years have been hard just with. standard business challenges to to work. through, so that's been really nice. I. think like.

to some degree, I I don't expect. Robinhood to ever be. perfectly understood and. non-controversial, so it just. comes with the comes with the territory, I guess. What's made you comfortable. with that? I feel like that's obviously. always hard. We always want to be liked. We want what we create to be, you know, overall seen in a certain way. What what's made you comfortable with. that? Well, I think the first time that, for example, I I saw negative press. about Robinhood, uh.

probably was like 2018, 2019. So, for. the first four to five years of the. company's existence, it felt like. everyone was kind of rooting for us. Like the regulators were fans, right? You know, I I remember our first FINRA. exam, um. uh. we we had, you know, someone kind of. looking at what we were doing. FINRA's. our primary regulator. And, you know, this was a young guy. Um. He's like, "Hey, there's never any like. new brokerages filing. This is like.

super interesting. I wish you guys. luck." It gave me this feeling of like, "Wow, I. every investor and person I talked to. was like, "Run as far away from regulation as. possible. You don't want to be a. regulated business. It's going to just. grind the company to a slow death. So, find some way to do it via partnerships. or something." When we got started, it. was unheard of to. uh. to like be a financially regulated. startup. It was really before the word. fintech existed. For example, Robinhood.

predated that. Probably created it to to. some degree. And then, you know, the. press was always telling this David and. Goliath tale where we were these little. guys that were going after the, you. know, uh big established gigantic competitors. Um and, you know, we had the millennials. on our side. And and so, it was just. like very very positive always. And it. kind of. I was like, "I don't really get what all.

of the fuss is about. Like, all of the. negative press and all this stuff that. people are talking about that's. happening to other companies, maybe not. us.". Eventually, I would get like the comms. and marketing people that um. they would come and show me the clock of. like company perception. Have Have you. seen this? I've not. No, I'm fascinated. like this clock and like basically, when. you're kind of here, everyone loves you. and when you're kind of here, everyone. hates you. that. And and they were like, "So,

you're here at like 4:00, but you should. get ready in the next 6 to 12 months, you'll be here and and everyone's going. to hate you." And you just haven't seen. it yet. Yeah, and then it keeps going around and. they were like, "Look, Facebook is here. They're like a little ahead of you. Everyone hates them now." They ended up. being exactly right. And then a couple 6. to 12 months later, it was like all. negative press. But I guess like the way. I got used to it was just going through. that, right? It's like the first time a. negative article hits, you're like,

"Holy. It's negative press. I've never seen it. before." And you you kind of feel like. it's the end of the world. And then, you know, after the 600th one, you're just kind of like, "Okay, it's another one of these things. I'm just going to move on and and run my. business." Yeah. And then when the press. turns positive, you're like positively. surprised and you're not expecting it. So, I think that's how I got through it. You just get punched in the face enough. and your face contorts to the shape of.

the fist, right? What What How have you managed your your. personal life through all this? Because. I feel like, you know, when we start the. interview today, you talked so much. about your personal life and you know, how you came to this country and and the. build and I feel like. you know, as you're an entrepreneur and. your professional and personal life. almost become one and you know, when. you're building something is that's. growing as fast as you are, you get. absorbed and you have to be like, you. know, you sleep and dream and eat. Robinhood. Like that's how it has to.

work. That's how it goes. What's been. powerful for you in your personal life. that you think is allowed you to. reinvent, reboot, stay renewed, stay. re-enthusiastic. Like you seem as. excited about Robin Hood today as I. imagine you would have been in 2013 if. not more. And what what's been allowed. you to renew your enthusiasm so. consistently? My kind of uh. sort of like analogy of.

so many things, my mental model for so. many things that I use uh in business. and in life is kind of the the barbell. Like I like to get things on opposite. sides of the barbell, right? And I tend. to ignore the things in the middle, right? So so basically for me. personally, my work is like highly intellectual and. that's maybe on one extreme. And what's what's the opposite of like. intellectual? Just sort of like the. physical. Um. so I really focus on that and it's just.

uh super basic. And you know, when I. started I would kind of. not really spend too much time and. effort on my health, but as I've gotten. older and the job's gotten more. stressful, I notice that like effort I. put in here pays off multiples, right? So now my like wellness routine and my. training, I spend more time just dialing. it in. So making sure I get the right. amount of sleep, that I have an awesome.

mattress, that like I keep my bed at the. right temperature. I like to journal. before bed and I like to shut off the. devices. The devices, by the way, has. been the hard part for me. You know, I. like. try really hard. I have to do unnatural. things to like stop from looking on my. phone. Like Like my phone's not with me. right now, for example, because. you know, I I would just it's hard to avoid. looking at it. Um. and if I know it's in my pocket, you.

know, then it's almost like too close. So, I mean, actually during the whole. GameStop stuff, it was particularly. acute for me because I was at home, so. there was no boundary between work and. personal. And I was going a little bit. crazy. And so, I had this thing where I. would try to sleep with my phone in a. different room, so I'm not always just. tempted to. check out what. emergency is is happening. Which ended.

up being a big problem the morning of. GameStop because it took forever for my. team to like get a hold of me. And then now I Then for a while I slept. with like three phones next to me, which. it really backfired. But yeah, my health I work out a lot. Um. I've gotten into like hot cold therapy. At first I was doing cryo, but then I. got like a cold plunge at my house that. and and that really helped. And yeah, just like the basics of sleep and diet,

I think has has made a world of. difference. And just trying to like. uh I don't think I've figured out the. device thing and sort of like my rhythm. of the day perfectly, but that's a. that's a work in progress. And your marriage you married too, right? You were mentioning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's How's How's it been like. dealing with all of this, but it sounds. like you've been together for quite some. time. Like it's Yeah, I've been married. for. almost 10 years now. Yeah, got a got a. bunch of kids. Um.

great kids and uh. they don't really know what I do. Same back to how your wife didn't know. what you did either. Yeah, um well, she did, but uh. yeah, um Show them Robinhood, the. cartoon, and they'll get it. Oh yeah, they love that cartoon. I think like the. the credit card they kind of get a. little bit cuz they know they can use it. to buy toys. Yeah, my my My. is a great compliment to me. She's very. patient. She's very empathetic. All the.

things that I'm not. And so she's just been an amazing. partner through all the crises. And. she's sort of like. knew me before Robinhood. Right? I mean. she she kind of helped come up with the. name. So. I think I think she feels like. Robinhood's like one of the children. Just kind of like I do. Yeah, that's. beautiful, man. I wanted to this I'll. probably cut and put back again. I was. the credit card there. I'm intrigued as. to product you created.

because you saw the traditional versions. of them being ineffective. Yeah. So when. you go build a credit card. what's what's wrong with a traditional. credit credit card that you can get from. anywhere else? Like what what are you. doing differently? I think there are a. couple of problems with traditional. credit cards. Um. One is that. basically the rewards are kind of. incomprehensible. I think that anytime there's like.

websites devoted to like exactly how you. should kind of like work through your. points to optimize the value you get. from all the points. Um. like. media empires like the points guy were. created on the back of this. Right? It's. like yeah, if if you want to spend 10. hours a week optimizing your points and. max maximizing the rewards. I I think that's pretty good. But we. wanted to create something that. simplifies all of that. And basically.

just by like using it for the vast. majority of people, you know, you get. the best rewards. So a simple clear. reward structure that you don't have to. be like a PhD to decipher. People. building their credit. if if you're a student and you are. you know, you you don't have a credit. history, uh typically you have to start. out with like a really crappy card. You. have to sort of like upgrade your way to.

a nicer card once you prove that you're. worthy. And you know, there's a crappy. starter card for people with no credit. history and like the premium card for. uh folks that have the means. We asked, "Can we Can we fix that? Can we actually. have a starter card that has the same. economics, the same reward, the same. design uh. for as like a highly premium card?" And. then the digital experience, you know, most cards don't really think through.

how to take all of the things that. technology and, you know, fintech has. given us and. uh sort of like give them to you in the. same package. Um. And those are things like virtual cards. I don't know if you've been to a. restaurant, you probably you probably go. to restaurants where you have to. give your credit card to lock down the. reservation. Imagine you could create a. virtual card so that not every. restaurant has your actual card number. And if you want to cancel the. reservation, you don't have to call the.

restaurant, you could just disappear. that virtual card, right? Got it. Or, you know, if you want to. sign up for a free trial, you can create. a virtual card seamlessly and that can. be your free trial card, but you don't. have to give them your your real phone. number. Mhm. Helps maintain people's. privacy. And in fact, there are great. innovative businesses privacy.com. created with with this notion. We put. all three of these things in in one. package. One card for everyone, the best. rewards in the industry, 3% cash back on.

all categories, a beautiful physical. card including the solid gold variant, which I have in my wallet, I can show. you, and uh. a digital experience that's like. world-class. Um. And we put all these together and it's. it's definitely the best reviewed, most. popular product that we've ever rolled. out. Uh even more popular than free. trading. So, it's it's been quite. amazing. And And now it's just like.

like we. people want to rolled out faster. That's. the one limitation. We had a over a. million people join the waitlist for it. within a month of announcement. And. Wow. the bet was that if we make the. rewards in the product so good, we. wouldn't have to spend the typical like. $500 to acquire credit card user that. the the big banks spend. We could get it. just organically. And that seems to have. proven out. Wow. Now it's just about. getting it into everyone's hands while. also validating the economics and the.

underwriting of a new credit model. Vlad, it's been fascinating talking to. you. You're truly a extremely unique. individual in in in a positive sense. It's. Oh, thank you. It's really a brilliant. Maybe some negative, too, you know. Brilliant brilliant to dive into your. mind, honestly. It's uh it's it's been. really fascinating for me. We end every. episode of On Purpose with a. final five. So, these questions have to. be answered in one word to one sentence. maximum. So, Vlad, ten of these are your. final five. The first question is, what.

is the best advice you've ever heard or. received? Be honest. Mhm. Don't lie to. others, but most of all, don't lie to. yourself. Mhm. Good advice. Question. number two, uh what is the worst advice. you've ever heard or received? I think. in the context of the of the company. uh. trusting experts who have done it before. Mhm. is bad advice, generally speaking. I think you have to listen to experts. and understand, but like.

I don't think people should blindly. trust anything. Uh question number. three, if we saw one of your evening. journal entries, what would we learn. about you that we haven't learned today? I still really love math. And I spend uh a non-trivial amount of. time trying to solve basic math. problems. Really? Yeah. Oh wow. That's cool. In your journal? In my. journal. Yeah, yeah, you'll see pictures. of like triangles and spheres and stuff. in there. That's cool. Uh fourth question,

how would you define your current. purpose? I think it's it's to seek. truth. I think if I had to find like a personal. I think a lot about like what are my. what are my personal values? What do I. care the most about? And I think my top. value is is truth. Mhm. Actually. I care. about truth. And I mean in in terms of. purpose, uh. I I really want to.

understand how the universe works. Mathematically or other. Mathematically, physically, yeah. I. mean, we can start with that, but of. course, psychologically is good, too. Oh, cool. Financially, I think we're closest to. that one. Pretty close to understanding how it. works financially. And how do you define. truth? That's a sub question to that, not the fifth. I think that's a really. good question. How is truth defined? Um. I think that.

truth is something that. multiple observers will simultaneously. agree on. Mhm. Yeah. So, if you had like. multiple independent intelligent. observers observing an event with like. the same information, they should agree. on it. And if if they agree on it, then. uh. you have like high confidence if it's. true. Now, of course, if it's something. that's like. fact-based, it's even easier because you.

can just like prove that it's true if it. follows from axioms, but um probably the. more interesting one is if if there's. some ambiguity. Yeah, I also find But I. think you need a notion of verification. and. and also some notion of like. independence. Yeah, one of my favorite verifications. of truth I feel in my definition is. timelessness. That's something being timeless. I it. was as true a thousand years ago as it. is today. Yeah, like the Lindy effect.

Lindy effect, right? Tell me about it. Yeah, basically like um. I think it was I read about it from. Nassim Taleb. Okay, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so so. basically like. he says a good approximation for how. long something's likely to be relevant. is how long it's already been relevant. So I think the the way he kind of. describes it is. the New York Times best seller list. If. a book.

sort of like hits the best seller list. and is a best seller for one week, you can basically assume that it's going. to be irrelevant in a couple of weeks, right? But if, you know, the Holy Bible, people have been reading it for 2,000. years, you have pretty high confidence. that it might it's it's going to be. relevant 2,000 years from now in a way. that you wouldn't with what's on the. best seller list now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Fifth and final question, we. ask this to every guest who's ever been. on the show. If you could create one law.

that everyone in the world had to. follow, what would it be? I think. there's too many laws. Yeah, I think deleting laws is the more. interesting thing. If there was a law. where in order to create a new law, you. had to delete at least one. existing law, I would feel much better. about it. That's a good law. If you. think about overregulation, which I. think is a big problem, it's really, really easy for new laws to be created, it's easy for like. organizations and the government to get.

bigger, and that creates all sorts of. problems. Like it's it's impossible to. get, you know, high-speed rail in. California, right? We need a force to. counteract that, and right now it's very. easy for these things to get bigger and. more laws, but like. periodically, we've got to go in there. and slash laws and make things smaller, and there's. there's a lot of pressure against this. Well said, Vlad. Uh. I look forward to many more. conversations with you, philosophical, seeing you have the truth,

psychological. Uh truly truly wonderful to get to know. you today, and thank you for being so. honest. Thank you for being so open and. vulnerable, and uh even though you. described yourself as stoic at the. start, I definitely feel uh. you you you shared you shared a lot of. emotion in in what you shared. So, thank. you so much for for doing that. I really. appreciate it. Thank you for taking the. time. You know, it's been it's been a. lot of fun, you know? I don't usually do. uh. I don't do too many podcasts in general, but this was a unique experience. Yeah.

I'm very grateful grateful for your. time. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for. listening to this conversation. If you. enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with. Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key. to growth and the strategies for. unlocking your hidden potential. If you. know you want to be more and achieve. more this year, go check it out right. now. You set a goal today, you achieve. it in 6 months, and then by the time it. happens, it's almost a relief. There's. no sense of meaning and purpose. You.

sort of expected it, and you would have. been disappointed if it didn't happen.