Robert Greene: The Warning Signs of a TOXIC Person (They Hide It at First)

We don't really have a self. The self is. a construction of our minds. There. actually is nothing there. And that kind. of emptiness, egolessness, is. enlightenment. It's a beautiful feeling. One of the best-selling authors of the. last 20 years, Robert Greene. If you're. dealing with your own weaknesses and. your own emptiness inside, you're going. to be drawn to people who fill that up. People's perception of you can almost. become how you perceive yourself if. you're not careful.

Hey everyone, I've got some huge news to. share with you. In the last 90 days, 79.4%. of our audience came from viewers and. listeners that are not subscribed to. this channel. There's research that. shows that if you want to create a. habit, make it easy to access. By. hitting the subscribe button, you're. creating a habit of learning how to be. happier, healthier, and more healed. This would also mean the absolute world. to me and help us make better, bigger,

brighter content for you and the world. Subscribe right now. The number one. health and wellness podcast, Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only, Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the place you come to become. happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorite, someone who's been on the show before. You absolutely loved our first episode. together, and so I had to have him back. He's also one of my favorite authors,

someone that I've been rereading. recently, especially when I fell out of. love with learning, and I'll tell you. about that in a second. Today's guest is. Robert Greene, the author of the New. York Times bestsellers, The 48 Laws of. Power, The Art of Seduction, The 33. Strategies of War, The 50th Law, Mastery, The Laws of Human Nature, and. most recently of The Daily Laws. I am so. excited to welcome back to the show. Robert Greene. Robert, thank you for.

being here. Thank you so much for having. me, Jay. Thanks for that great. introduction. Of course, grateful to. have you back in the seat. And as I was. just saying to you offline, over. Christmas, I spent last year touring. I. was on stages. We did nearly 40 cities. across 90 days. My book had come out. I. was really pouring out externally. And whenever that happens to me, I. always kind of after that get a feeling. of I need to grow again. I need to learn. again. I need to nourish myself. And I really believe that last Christmas.

The Daily Laws of Power became my daily. read. And I have recommended it to so many. people. My wife started reading it. My. closest friends have started reading it. And it was just such a great book for. anyone who's either stuck with reading, someone who's kind of like not sure what. to read, someone who's trying to figure. out their direction in life, The Daily. Laws of Power is a great starting place, I'd say. Thank you. Thank you very much. uh I've always been a fan of your books.

and you sent me this beautiful limited. edition version, which I'm getting to. show off on the show. Uh but The 48. Laws, what a what a phenomenal book. So, thank you for being such a big part of. my learning journey. for having me. You're a rockstar. What a tour you had. I've never been on a tour like that. That sounds like fun. It was fun. It was. fun. We went to Sydney and Melbourne and. Brisbane. We went. all over India. I went to Dubai. I went. to Wow, so jealous. Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin. It was. phenomenal. Like it was amazing. consider yourself more of an extrovert. or an introvert? That So, that's a great.

question. And I'm going to let you define the two. for me because you'll probably have some. wisdom to share with us. I energize. alone. But I enjoy connecting with small groups. of specific people. So, I assume I'm. overall an introvert, but 99% of people. would say, "Jay, you're an extrovert.". But if I was in a big group of people, I. would find the one person who I share. values with to have a deep conversation. I wouldn't be. milling around introducing myself to. everyone. So, if that makes any sense.

But do you need to be alone? Do you feel. I I crave alone time a lot. Yes, a lot. So, you're a mix. You're a mix. And. either, yeah. If that's what it's. called, yeah. Ambivert, okay. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh but I've so many questions for you, Robert, that I want to dive into. And. I'm really coming to you with questions. that I know a lot of my community and. audience repeatedly ask, and I think. you're. specifically positioned to answer a lot. of these. The first one I have is. one of the biggest things I get asked.

is, "Jay, how do I deal. with negative people? How do I deal with. negative people in my family? How do I. deal with negative people in my friend. circle? How do I deal with negative. people at work?". In close, intimate circles, I feel a lot. of people feel they're dealing with. negativity. Well, you know, it all. depends on the details, the kind of. negative person you're dealing with. There there are several kind of ways of. looking at it, some kind of micro and. some kind of much larger.

The larger picture is. we all have negative traits, we all have. dark traits, right? And so, you kind of. if you have this idea that it's just. humans human beings are like this, it's. like a a flower or a rock or a tree has. its nature, you know, I just accept it. I accept people for who they are and I. deal with them on that level. I don't. judge them, etc. Now, of course, when.

you're dealing with negative people, it. can be very difficult because negative. people like to stir up a lot of drama. around you around them. And that's the. kind of power that they get. They like the attention that they get. from making people upset, from pulling. on your emotions, right? So, you have to have you have to have this. kind of larger look at them where. it's not about me, right? They're dealing with their own. issues, their own problems. There's a. history behind it.

It could be their parents, it could be. their family, it could be their spouse, their children, whatever, and they're. venting it on me in this particular. moment, but it's not personal. I tell. people, don't take it everything so. personally, right? But then, you know, so there all these different. levels and it's it all really depends on. the specifics cuz a lot of people come. to me for advice. But a lot of times you're enmeshed with. a negative person. Like it's your boss, it's your spouse, etc., etc. And it's.

very difficult to do what I'm talking. about, right? And so, you have to try. and get a little bit of distance from. them. You have to be able to to say to. yourself, um they're not me, right? They. have their own problems. I'm separate. from them. The sense of being separate from them is. very liberating, right? So, they have issues and they're trying to. drag me into it and they're trying to. drag me down, but I'm not them. I have. my own life and I'm not going to get.

involved. Sometimes you need to have. empathy, but sometimes you need to shut. that off. And so, the best thing in life though is that's. why I say there's just so many angles to. approach this from. is if they're like a deep narcissist and. that's probably the most common type of. negative person you deal with in the. world today and we all have come across. this. The power that you have is to recognize. people like that before you get involved.

with them and to not get involved with. them, right? And so, they have signs, things that you can pick up in advance. People who are toxic, I don't know if. we're going to say toxic and negative. are the same here. They don't show it immediately. They're. good at deceiving you. They can be very. charming. They can be very dramatic. They pull you in with their. great stories. They have Sometimes. they're even charismatic. A lot of. important CEOs in the world, people like. Elon Musk, are raging narcissists. They appear very.

exciting and you want to get to know. them. But you have to recognize that these are. people that are probably going to use. you. Right? They don't see you as an. individual. And. the people you associate with were very. um. as as humans, we're very open to the. emotions of other people. Right? And so. the people you associate with have a. huge role on who you are and the energy. you have, you know, your daily life, etc., etc. And so you have to be very,

very careful who you let into your life, right? And um. God Jay, I don't know. There's so many. different angles to approach it from. No, that's a really thoughtful. I tell people. that don't judge people as far as who. you're going to let into your life. Don't be um deceived by the appearances. Don't judge people based on their. intelligence, on their charm, on whether. they're good or bad, etc. Judge them on. their character, whether they have a.

weak or a strong character. What are some of the signals, the signs. we can look out for? Because I think. what you just said is so true that. we naturally get attracted to people's. appearance, intelligence, charisma, access, because we haven't really been trained. to view character. Yeah. So I remember. when I lived in the monastery, the highest quality or character trait.

that was considered. the epitome of. internal emotional evolution was. humility. And so, when you met someone who was. humble, and you met someone who. didn't have false ego, they were. considered of high character, and we. were trained in order to understand. that. But in the modern world, that isn't how. the material world works. We're almost. attracted to people who come off. arrogant and showboaty, and and even if.

we sense we don't like that, we still. believe that person has power. And so, what are things that we have to. look out for? Well, also there are. people who appear to be humble, but. they're not really humble. There's a lot. of people now who feign humility because. it's seen as a positive trait. Yes. So, humans are born actors, and you. have to kind of look behind the mask. So, I tell people I I view it as strong. or weak character. A strong character is. a person who can take criticism, right? Who can work with other people, right?

Who can deal with stressful situations, who can handle responsibility, and if. there's something goes wrong, they take. I I'm to blame for it. They don't look. at other people. They're somebody you can rely on. You. lean on them, and there's something. there to lean on. You can rely on them. in situations. A weak character is. somebody who cannot take criticism. That. is probably the number one. characteristic, the worst trait I think. in people, and a definite trait of of. negativity, is somebody who can't take.

any kind of criticism, right? They're so. defensive. So, that means they can get. away with anything. They can say. anything they want, and there there's. there's just like a wall, a shell around. them, right? So, the ability in a work. situation, in a relationship, to um to take criticism, and not and be. able to use it constructively, is an incredibly useful and powerful. trait to me that reveals strong. character. How people handle stress is a really.

good sign of their character. So, in a work situation, people are good. at faking it and and pretending that. they're very strong. But when it gets. really stressful and there's a lot of. pressure on it, the mask falls off and. they reveal that they can't handle it. They're too weak. They're reacting to. everything. They can't get out of the. moment. They're so impatient, you know, and fragile. And so, the ability to. handle stress shows that somebody has. something strong inside of them, right?

How they handle power. Right? So, when people are kind of. climbing up the ladder in in a group or. in a job, they they generally wear they generally. try and pretend like they're they're. they're with with the group. But once. they have power, that all falls off and. they could become abusive and they feel. like they can get away with any things. that they couldn't get away with before. They treat people below them miserably, etc. So, when people have power, how do they.

handle it? Are they responsible? Do they. suddenly become somebody different or do. they maintain the character that they. had beforehand, right? What kind of partners do they choose? Do. they choose a spouse, a husband, a. girlfriend, etc.? Somebody that they can. push around, somebody that's inferior to. them so that they can feel better about. themselves. How do they look when they're playing. like a game or they're in outdoor. activities or something that has nothing. to do with work? Are they so competitive.

they have to win at everything even when. it's like outside of that kind of. environment, you know? That those these are kind of traits that. help me sort of judge a person's. character. Yeah, and these are often the. things that we. either ignore or we actually. let them kind of fall by the wayside or. or don't pay enough attention to them. because we think, "Oh, no, but they're. so smart and they're so this." And I. wonder how much of that is also like. What What does that say about us that we.

often get attracted to. the wrong things within people? What. does that say about us? Does that make us of strong or weak. character? I know that uh. I tend to be I tend to get involved with. narcissistic people. It's a weakness of. mine, right? Um and maybe it's because of my. upbringing and maybe it's because I feel. a kind of emptiness inside of me and. that they're charm and the attention. that they tend to they pretend to give. you.

is kind of enchanting or casts a spell. on you and it draws you in. Yeah, so if you're dealing with your own. weaknesses and your own emptiness. inside, you're going to be drawn to people who. fill that fill that up. Are you going to. be drawn to causes and charismatic. leaders that pretend to give you a a. purpose in your life because you don't. have a purpose, but they have it for. you. Kind of thing. So, a lot of it has. to do, yeah, with ourselves and we're. attracted to to we're even attracted to.

negative people. And there are people. who have patterns in their life. where they deliberately choose the wrong. the worst kind of person for them, right? And over and over and over again. because at least that makes them feel. alive. At least the pain of it, you know, gives them a sense of. something's hap- something dramatic. And. so they deliberately bring on those kind. of that kind of pain. So, it it's complicated, yeah. Um.

Yeah, when you said that. often we feel an emptiness inside and. you were saying maybe because of your. upbringing you felt that emptiness. inside as well. Have you tried to fill that emptiness or. is there another. solution? Well, uh to me uh it's why I wrote the. book Mastery. Um the way I fill my. emptiness and have done it for since I. was a kid is through my work. and through my ideas and my thinking and.

and how I'm constantly looking for uh. new thoughts and new ways of looking at. the world. So, um. I I I find that if I don't if I didn't. have. my work. as kind of Some people think of work as. something that you just have to do. Right? It's just a way to get money. But. for me, it's a way to to feel like I'm. I'm I'm a human being that I am who I.

am. I was destined to write these books. and it gives me a Every day I wake up. and I know this is what I need to. accomplish, etc., etc. Um. and so. I That's why I read so many books. That's why I'm so intrigued by ideas. That's why I'm writing a book right now. about a subject that. very much captivates me because it does. fill that inner kind of emptiness. But. on the other hand, um. as someone who meditates.

and practices a form of Zen meditation. there is a purpose to emptiness, right? There It's It's not necessarily good to. be always having to fill things up in. your brain. Like you're just pouring. food into your system. You know, there is something actually. kind of intrinsically beautiful about. the idea. that there that there is emptiness. That. That I don't really have a self. That. there is actually not that there is no. such thing as a mind actually. It's It's.

an illusion that we create. Right? It's. something that's a something through. words that we have. So, that sense of. emptiness that, you know, I'm I don't. have an ego or that I'm confronting the. world and I'm just hearing and seeing. things as they are is actually a. beautiful thing. So, you have to kind I. have to kind of struggle against this. idea of always having to fill myself up. What's something you were saying you. like observing. humans and humanity? What's something. that. you've observed about humans over time.

that surprised you? Well, nothing really surprises me. because um. I read a lot of history and I see that. things just keep repeating over and over. and over again. I know though um since I had my stroke. and since I've physically weak and there. things I can't do anymore. I've actually noticed that. people respond to me differently and. it's actually very positive. So,

sometimes I can be very negative about. people. That's kind of my inclination. That's how I'm my mind tends to work. which is not necessarily a good thing. We all have these attitudes that make us. look at the world a certain way. I tend to have a negative bent towards. human nature. But, I must say people. have been very very kind to me since. I've had my stroke. And it's a. sad that you have to have an accident. like that to be able to perceive it.

But, I've seen another side where. everyone wants to help me. They kind of. empathize with the fact that I'm a. little bit helpless in these situations. And um it's also made me kind of feel. differently about other people who have. disabilities or things that they can't. help in their lives. But, the sense of. I'm a little bit helpless and people are. really eager to try and help me actually. is something that has kind of surprised. me in a way. Yeah, I I liked what you said that that. it's it's sad that someone has to go.

through something for us to then show. that sides of ourselves which means that. it's always there. It means that it exists inherently. within us. Yeah. Do you think it's because we Why why do. you think that is? Why why do you think. that is that if it's inherently there, we don't display it at all times to all. people? I don't know. Um. I mean, we're all born with a capacity. for empathy. It's something that it interests me a. lot because. uh the feeling that I'm connecting very.

deeply to another person, let's say my. wife, etc. is a very overpowering emotion. It makes. It takes me out of myself and I'm seeing. the world through her eyes as opposed to. me always projecting myself onto her. It's a very moving experience. And sometimes. you go to a movie. and you find yourself getting inside the. characters, you're getting outside of. yourself, and you're feeling this empathy for.

them, you're identifying with them. These are all very powerful emotions, right? And we all have the capacity for. that. But the world we live in is. actually a machinery to deaden those. those emotions, that sense of empathy, right? It just puts so much emphasis on. ourselves, on our individuality, on who. we are, our needs, you know, our the. attention that we want, that we deserve. We're so focused on ourselves that that. natural feeling of wanting to get inside.

of another person. And you know, it's very strange, Jay, because. if you think about it, uh our inner lives are actually quite. boring. The same thoughts repeat over and over. and over again, the same emotions, the. same preoccupations, the same anxieties. And other people, they're so different. They have their. own worlds, right? They're like a It's. like traveling to another country. So, we should actually be much more. oriented towards other people. Uh we.

should have a natural interest in their. world because it takes us out of. ourselves. It's like therapy. But it's been deadened by so many things. in our world, by social media, by the. pressures we're under, by just modern lifestyle. And so, that. empathetic muscle that everybody has is. kind of atrophying. And yet, there'll be moments. where it kind of sparks to life. And you. feel like, "God, I want that I want more. of that in my life, more of that in my. world. How do I get it?" What what would.

you say is your most repeated thought on. a daily basis? Like, um. "What do I need to do today? What's on. my schedule?" You know, so like, I'm. meditating in the morning. And I'm trying to empty my mind, and I'm. going into what's called known as a. koan, right? And um. then these thoughts keep pu- bubbling. up. And they're so annoying. And it. makes you aware of what how of the. machinery of your own mind. And so, as. you to answer your question, it's always.

like, "Oh, did you remember that you have to. call this person this afternoon? Did you. remember that you have to change that. reservation? Do you remember that you. have to do this that the uh scheduling. things?". So unimportant, so trivial. Where I'm. trying to open my mind up to something. vast and important. It's little things. like scheduling and stuff like that. Then there'll be other thoughts that. will be repeating, you know, like if I. saw a movie from it, images will keep. popping up from that and such. It makes.

you aware that you're not in control of. your own mind, right? How have you found. over time with meditation and other. practices? What have you used in order. to start. quietening, emptying, whatever the right. word is for you, releasing those. thoughts so that you can. connect with the vastness, be creative, or self-express. Wow, it's uh it's not easy, and it's an. ongoing process. And I could say I'm. maybe 10% of the way where I'd like to. be. Um.

but first of all, uh you recognize. you go through a thing where a thought. pops up and it's like, "Why am I. thinking about that? I don't like it.". You you realize that it's just a. thought. And what is a thought? Now, I. know we're getting really weird and. metaphysical here. it. But, it's not it's it's not real. It's a. phantom, right? It has no reality. Reality is your body, the present. moment, the birds outside, the sky, where you are sitting, the fact that.

you're alive, that your blood is. pumping. These are real. But, that. thought in your mind is a shadow. It's a. phantom. It doesn't exist. It has no. reality. And so, I go through this process where. don't engage with it. And it's really weird because then my. mind plays tricks on me and it pulls up. a thought that's definitely going to. engage me, right? Cuz it wants that. It's It's like. a sugar rush. And so, I go, "Okay, no, I'm not going to engage with it.". And it made me realize as I went through.

that process. that this is what social media is based. on. Social media has mirrored the human. brain on a large scale. We have thoughts that are designed to. grab our emotions and make us. think about them repetitively over and. over again, compulsively, right? And. there's probably a purpose behind that. But, social media is is actually a. genius at that at picking out putting up. things up there that are going to engage. our emotions so we have to pay.

attention. So, I always try and. every time that happens, I withdraw and. I say, "It's just a thought. It's not. real. It's not who I am.". This is a very important part of. meditation. Your thoughts are not who. you are. They're a separate part of yourself. You. are something different from your own. thoughts. I don't know if that means. anything to you. It does. It does, definitely. And. while we are not our thoughts and we are. not our mind, our thoughts become our reality. Yeah.

We find that a repetitive thought turns. into a habit that turns into a pattern. that turns into an action, becomes our. reality. For example, I am a unorganized lazy individual. Usually translates into, oh, I forgot to. send that. It didn't happen because now. it's a belief that's built up. And so. it's so fascinating that something. that's so not real becomes so real. And and I've been really into.

seeing how thought editing is so useful. as an activity and an exercise. because I've found so many of my. thoughts become my beliefs that become. my life. And I think a lot of people don't. realize because they don't realize that. their thoughts are like clothes that you. can change. We do believe that our thoughts are real. and our reality. Right. And whatever we're hearing in our head. is exactly what is. Right. And we don't. realize that, oh, it's like looking in.

your wardrobe and saying, I don't like. the color green anymore. I'm going to. change it for blue. Right. It's It's as simple as that. Well, there. was a a something I read recently um in. in one of the Buddhist books that I like. to read that said, our minds are. basically topsy-turvy. They're upside. down. So, the reality is we don't I mean, I. don't want to get too deep into this, but we don't really have a self. The. self is a construction of our minds. There actually is nothing there. And.

that kind of emptiness, that. egolessness, is enlightenment. It's a. beautiful feeling and maybe in your life. you've touched upon it briefly. I know. I've touched upon it briefly. It's not. the reality I have every day. But that's the real That's real. And. what's not real are the thoughts, but. everything is turned upside down in our. worlds. And so, these delusional thoughts about. of about people, about who I am, about.

my habits, etc. They become our reality. when it's exactly the opposite. Right? You have to be able to to to be aware of. that. And so, you know, meditation is all about being. aware of is becoming aware of these. things because we walk around like. automatons. You know, I I'm very into this writer. named Gurdjieff. I don't know if you've. ever heard of Gurdjieff. He was this um he's basically from. Armenia. He was in the beginning of the. 20th century. He was this man who was.

very interested in in mysticism and he. traveled throughout Asia trying to find. the. the uh the essence of all the different. esoteric philosophies and he created his. own philosophy. And it's very. interesting, very exciting stuff. He. wrote a book called. In Search of the Miraculous. So, I. highly recommend people. And it's not. woo-woo stuff. He was a very, very. practical man. He puts it in very. practical terms. But his idea is that we. walk around asleep.

We're on automatic pilot constantly. We're not really aware that we're. breathing, that we're existing. We're. not aware where our thoughts come from. We're not aware of how our body moves, etc., etc., etc. And so, it's a process of slowly becoming aware. of these kinds of things that is really. kind of. I've been doing this 14, 15 years now. and it's really, really kind of changed. the course of my life, I have to say. Mhm. Yeah, I love that and I can't wait.

to read that book now and. I I couldn't agree more. I feel. we're so disconnected from our mind and. body that we. constantly believe that someone outside. of ourself has the answer for how we. feel. And while that may be true when. you're seeing a doctor or dentist or. something of that professional nature, we don't really know how our body's been. feeling for weeks or months until it. crashes and then we realize that we. haven't paid enough attention to X or Y.

or Z or. a relationship in the same way has to. end in order for us to realize that it. had lost investment and energy or. whatever it may be and. we're so far away from the self or at. least this version of the self that. yeah, we're not really aware. I love. what you just said about the idea of how. conscious are we of the fact that we're. breathing, we're here, we're present, we're together versus how much are we. living up here. Yeah. And.

and it's really interesting, isn't it, because. there's almost two realities that we're. always dealing and if we're getting too. heady, I'm happy to move away from it, but. it's it's almost like I've been thinking. a lot about how. in one sense what's out here is real and. in one sense what here is in and at the. same time actually what's going on here. is the real because it defines how I. interact with. everything else. And and it can help me. be a better filter, a better a chooser,

selector of the people I'm around and. the places I visit. So you say you have. to kind of use the mind to be able to. become present. It's a process. I would. say I'm. alluding to that in discovery, not in. pushing it, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense to me. I I agree. with that, definitely. Yeah. I I've been reflecting a lot recently. about how. most of what's happening is in the. invisible world in that That's very. interesting. Tell me more about that. So I've just been I was thinking that in.

in one sense you have reality. externally, the visible world, but how I make sense of that visible. world is all in the invisible space. And ultimately, how I make sense of it. is the reality that I experience, regardless of what's happening around. me, which is why we realize that. people who Well, we all are telling. ourselves stories and narratives all day. long. But how we're processing what we're.

experiencing is our reality as opposed. to the event or what someone said or. social media, as you gave an example. Like, I can either sit here and say, like, I know. that when I wake up in the morning and I. start scrolling on social media, my mind. is now moving 10 times, 100 times faster. than if I don't do that. And I know that. brushing my teeth and showering is much. more peaceful process if I haven't. looked at my phone than if I do. Right.

And so, that choice is being made in the. invisible world. And. the visible world is simply something. I'm interacting with and taking from or. being affected by. Well, so we mostly. live in amid things that are invisible. Yes. Right? Symbols, etc. Yes. Language. is is is a symbol. It's not reality. And. so, um things like government and and. social behavior, the rules and codes.

that we abide by, but they're not. visible. They're invisible, right? Yeah, definitely. And and we're not. aware of that. And so, we're trying to raise our. awareness of the invisible world, or I'm. always trying to raise my awareness of. why do I process this this way? Where. Where does this come from? Where's this. idea. taking root? That's a very Yeah, that's. very interesting process to go through. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. It's like, yeah, it's. not clear. It's not Yeah. It's not like, "Oh, here's the step-by-step process.". It's just something I've been engaging.

with a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I like to try and go through. a thing where I I question all of my. beliefs and things of why where does. that come from? Why do I believe that? Why is that become something that's so. hardened into my brain? I believe that. about myself and who I am about other. people. I continually try to challenge. it and look at what might be the source. of it and then maybe say it could be the. opposite. Right? And it actually it can be can lead to a. lot of problems because it's like my.

mind is always swimming and I'm never. really think anything is certain. I'm. always, you know, saying the opposite. side of it. But um I think it's in the. end it's a very healthy process. How how do you I I love I love where. we're going because it kind of comes. back to your same point early sorry your. earlier point about how someone of. strong character knows how to take. criticism which means they know how to. deal with the opposite of what they. think or feel. And so this idea that you're sharing now. that it's healthy to be able to question.

to evaluate to assess our beliefs and. values. But like you said it's one of the. hardest things to do because you get. into a space of uncertainty, you. question your identity, you lose a sense. of direction. How do we question. ourselves without losing ourselves? And actually realize that that is the. process of. discovering and building ourselves. You. know, like who who really are you in the. end, you know, what what what. constitutes you the essence of you? What. were you meant to accomplish in this.

world? Right? Your sense of purpose, you. know, to use the title of your show. What is it that makes you an individual, makes you unique that you alone are are. meant to accomplish in life? Well, it's. not given. We don't know it and a lot of. people really really struggle with. trying to figure that out, right? Because they've been programmed by their. parents, by their siblings, by the. culture, by their teachers to say this. is who you are, this is what you should. believe in, this is what you were meant.

to accomplish in life, this is what's. cool and what's not cool. Okay? And so, you have to question yourself. You have. to say, "Is this really who I am? Do I really Am. I really interested in this subject? Am. I really interested in this kind of. person? In getting in a relationship. with this kind of person?". And so, question yourself on that level, you're getting at a deeper and deeper. core of maybe who you are at essence. You're cutting away all of the social. stuff that's been foisted upon you that.

it has nothing to do with you, right? So, in some ways, you're kind of a. mystery to yourself and you're sort of. trying to solve that puzzle. And you have to ask these questions, "Is this something I'm actually really. interested in? Is this an intrinsically. important thing to me? Or is it. something that's in the culture? Or. something that other people have told. me?" And questioning that. over and over and over again is not to. lead you into this abyss where there's. nothing real. It's to get you to closer.

to who you are, to what really matters, to what that essence of you is, to what. you were meant to accomplish in life. And once you reach that, that inner kind. of gold, then you have you have a degree. of certainty. So, I know I knew from a very young age. that I wanted to be a writer, right? I had a struggle to figure out what kind. of writing I wanted. But knowing that's who I am, probably about at the age of eight, it allowed me to go, "I'm not interested.

in that. I don't want to do that. This. isn't important. Why am I following this. career path? Why am I wasting my time. here?" And then, so, knowing that kind. of core, you don't have to keep questioning. yourself. So, I'm never going to. question myself, "Why are you a writer? Why are you writing books? You should. have been a. a pop star. You should have been a rock. singer. You should have written poetry. You should have been a lawyer." No, I'll. never go there because I have that that. firm ground beneath me. And that's what. your questioning is supposed to lead to.

Get to the essence of who you are. And. once you're there, you have a degree of. certainty in your life. Mhm. Yeah, it does. It does. And I feel like. a big challenge, something that I've. been thinking a lot about lately, is. a big challenge of where that comes from. is. because we care so much about what. people think. And we're scared of being an. unsuccessful version of ourselves. Because we'd rather be a successful. version of what someone else wants us to.

be. Yeah, yeah. And so we're scared of being an. unsuccessful writer if we could be a. successful accountant. We're scared of. being an unsuccessful artist because. we'd rather be a successful tech person, whatever else it may be. Fill in your. blank. And because what we. think people think of us. has such a stronghold on us that we. can't pivot to our passions. We can't. maneuver to our purpose. We can't accept.

that maybe I'm not what this person. wants me to be. And I've been spending a. lot of time in this to try and figure. out. and I'll and we'll let's let's dive into. it from different perspectives, but I. guess. how much, Robert, do you care. what people think of you? And how have. you made sense of that. over your time as someone who obviously. writes that a lot of people enjoy your. reading. People may disagree with you, they may agree with you. People as you. said, debate, discuss. But how have you. made sense of that? And and what's been.

your process of dealing with how you. think people think about you? There's. There's how people think about me who. know me personally, and there's how. people think about me in the social. realm who don't know me personally and. who have an idea of who I am. Just often very different from the. reality. But naturally, as a human being, I care. that people understand that I'm I'm a. certain way, that I have a certain. character, that I actually love jokes and silly.

bathroom humor, and that, you know, I. like stupid movies, and that I'm not. always, you know, reading heavy. philosophy. You know, my wife can tell. you all about this childish side of my. personality. So, you know, it's always been important to me to feel. kind of authentic and sincere. And I've always hated, and it's probably. why I wrote the 48 Laws of Power, I hate. people who are pretending to be. something that they're not.

Deeply, deeply wounds me, and I don't. know why. I don't know why it's been. like that since I was a child. Maybe I. suspected that in my parents, the kind. of falseness. that upsets me deeply. And so, I wrote the 48 Laws of Power because I. felt people are such hypocrites. They pretend that they're not interested. in power, but that's all they're. interested in, right? They wear this. front like, "Oh, I just want to help. people. I just want to write make movies. and culture and art." No, you're. interested in power. So, it's always been deeply important to.

me to kind of reveal what's really going. on in someone and to sort of feel that. way about myself. So, when I don't feel like I'm myself, when I feel like I'm faking it, and. sometimes, to be honest with you, Jay, being a kind of, quote unquote, self-help guru, it feels false. It doesn't feel like who. I am. I feel like a bit of an impostor. Mhm. It's not really what I wanted to. be. Can relate to that. I just wanted to write books. I love. ideas. I love thoughts. I love expanding.

my consciousness, Mhm. right? So, the. feeling that I'm not being who I am, and. that other people are kind of glomming. onto that, is upsetting to me. Yeah. I. don't know if I'm answering your. question. that that's I mean, that's resonating so. deeply with me. I think. it's so interesting, isn't it, how your. self-perception. is so different from. people's projection onto you. And so I I. can identify with that. I do what I do.

because I'm just sharing what I love. So. I love meditation. I love. uh wisdom books. I love. traditions. I love. ancient wisdom and modern science and. seeing the parallels between the two. And I just love talking about that and. sharing that. Yeah. And I don't think I've ever thought of. myself as a guru or a guide or a. or that kind of individual. But we in society, if someone shares or.

teaches or gives insight or advice, we. box them or bucket them as that. So same. as you, we'd go in the same bucket even. though we kind of do similar things but. very different things. And we probably. have some similar interests and some. different interests. And it's. interesting how. there isn't a space. Like I often say to. people, I'm just trying to be everyone's. spiritual friend. Like that's my goal. Like I'm that guy who's. introducing my friends to cool things.

that they may not have come across, whether it's Eastern spirituality or. wisdom or whatever it may be. Like I'm. that guy. And that's all I want to be. I. don't I don't want to be anything else. But it's hard when. you almost get put on a pedestal even. though you didn't ask for that, didn't. want that. Well, people's perception of. you can almost become what you how you. perceive yourself if you're not careful. For sure. You know? And so um that's why I keep coming back. to myself and going, is that really who.

I am? I don't think so, Robert. You. know? And also. I actually um am very I'm a flawed. individual. I'm a flawed human being. I have. you know, blind spots in my nature. I. have compulsions that I wish I didn't. have. And I don't like this idea that people. think I'm this powerful person who's. figured everything out, cuz I'm not. I. have. That's why you know, I write the wrote. the book The Laws of Human Nature. It. was because I understand that I shared.

the same flaws that I have narcissistic. tendencies, that I too can feel envy, that I have moments of grandiosity. So, I'm not comfortable with the idea. like that I'm this. somebody that I'm not. The The The The. The perception of me is But, that's what. happens to a lot of successful famous. people. They become trapped in what other people. are thinking about them. They become. trapped in that image. And I honestly. think. I I could be way off base, but I'm.

thinking of somebody like Anthony. Bourdain, who committed suicide. I think he was. burdened and weighed down so much by how. people thought of himself, and it wasn't. who he was, and it kind of made him feel. deeply uncomfortable. Now, I'm sure. there were many other issues going on, but a lot of times can make you. uncomfortable in your own skin, the way. people perceive you, and it can lead to. deep feelings of depression and and and. a loss of who you are, kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

could you write a new book called The. Flaws of Human Nature? It's like a. Thank you. That's what the book is, really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. 18 dark corners of human nature. Yeah, that's a good idea. it's No, it's just you know, a thought. of like Yeah, it is true. It's. there's a seeking of perfection, and there's a sense that we've created. in the world of before and after. In the sense that if you look at like a. a workout program, and there's nothing.

wrong with this, because it makes sense, but there's a before picture, and. there's an after picture. And if someone's wealthy, it's like they. were poor, and now they're rich, and. everything's a linear before and after. journey. And what we're talking about, and I. fully agree with you on this, is that. actually all of my challenges are. cyclical. And they're different. So, it's not that I never feel envy anymore. It's that I feel it differently to how I. felt it 10 years ago. And hopefully I'm a bit better at.

dealing with it and understanding it and. and engaging with it than I was 10 years. ago, but it's not that it doesn't affect. me anymore. Right, right. And same with spiraling thoughts. It's. not that I don't have anxious or. negative thoughts anymore because I'm. enlightened. I still have those thoughts. I just deal. with them better than I did 10 years. ago, and I probably have more tools to. help me engage with them. That's very interesting. And and I think that cyclical nature is. a wonderful thing to accept as an.

individual and as someone who's learning. because you then don't fool yourself to. think Oh, there will be one day where I. will no longer have a negative or. anxious thought like Jay and Robert. Like, you know, they probably never have. any. It's like, well, yeah, you probably. have less, but it's not that I never. have them. Exactly. Uh right? Yeah. Yeah, and so so that. kind of idea of this before and after I. think is. what confuses so many people because it. feels like oh, there is a point at which.

I never have to go back to being this. version of myself. Well, that life isn't like that. You. know, it's weird sometimes because. before the 48 Laws of Power came out, I was just this nobody living in a two. one bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, rent controlled, you know, never really. made any money, never really had any. success in life. And I was constantly. giving people advice, but nobody would. listen to me because I hadn't written. the book. And suddenly the book comes. out, and I'm supposed to be a different. person. Mhm. It was very strange, but.

I'm actually the same person that I was. when I was living in that miserable. one-bedroom apartment, you know, and. giving out my advice that nobody. listened to. Now people listen to it, but the only difference is because. suddenly. I have this credential, which is very. strange. Yeah, I can I can relate to. that so many ways. I was. I I used to be mentoring coaching people. in my community. I would do these little. events in London. 10 11 years ago now. where like five people would show up and.

and it was you know, I was I was just. doing it. I I would speak at. universities for free for years. Like I. was. it was you know, it's been such a big. part of my life to just do this. I've. always wanted to be someone who's. learning and sharing. That's what I. enjoy. I enjoy learning and I enjoy. sharing. And I enjoy synthesizing and. making things simple and practical for. other people. That's that's what I get. my joy from. And. I was always inspired by two quotes. One.

is Ivan Pavlov where he said, "If you. want a new idea, read an old book." And. so that's always been something that my. work has been inspired by. It's always. based on ideas that seem timeless, but. they're and and old. Very beautiful, yeah. Yeah, and then there's another. thought from. Einstein which is another part of what. inspires my work, which is if you can't. explain something simply, you don't. understand it well enough. Mhm. And so. these were the two kind of tenets that. what I enjoyed doing in the world. And.

again, I don't think they're. magnificent, miraculous, or brilliant. They're just what I'm meant to do. Uh and there's such a beautiful. significance and insignificance in that. very understanding. Like it's really. significant building cuz I'm like, "I. know what I have to do." And it's really. insignificant cuz I'm like, "It's just. what I have to do. It's It's not the. best or the worst or it's not. comparative." Right. Um and I think that's how when you're. talking in the daily laws of power, that's that's kind of how you in. different words how you describe like.

your life's. um, you know, your life's gift, your. life's work, your life's path. I've. always liked. old books myself. So, um, you know, I read. a lot of books of philosophy, etc., history, but I also read books of famous. Zen classics. The 20th century books, uh, I'm not so sure. But I'd read like. something from the 11th century where. the thought process is so different, but.

it's timeless, it's human. Man, that is so beautiful and so sparks. these ideas that he or this writer, this. thinker was dealing with the same things. now a thousand years later, but they still strike a truth, but it's. in this language that's very weird and. primitive and barbaric. I don't know why that excites me so. much. It's the same idea that a modern. writer might write, but put in the words. of somebody a thousand years ago, it. suddenly touches me. Yeah. Can you explain that, Jay? I mean,

I don't know if I can explain it apart. from the fact that you've reincarnated. and you had some connection to it, but. um, can I explain it? I can't explain it, but I can I can reflect on it. I mean, I. find that there's a part of it that. that writer or creator may never have. known if anyone would ever read it. Yeah. And so that privacy and that. secrecy and that. intimacy with their work, not knowing that it would ever be.

viewed, seen, read, broadcasted, that has some power to it, I think. Yeah, yeah. There's a There's a humility. to that. Whereas now people write where. expecting all these people to be reading. it. We do it for the attention. Yeah. It. was much different back then. Yeah, that's very interesting. Never thought. of that. Yeah, I've I've definitely found that. I try and re- Yeah, I try and sit with. ideas for longer now and try and. kind of I'd love to know your process. for that. How have you managed that.

since that moment of where you became. quote unquote successful because. externally because of 48 Laws. How did that change your creative. process? How did you hold on to the the. roots of this kind of thinking? So after. the 48 Laws of Power came out and it was. successful, I was at a turning point in. my life. And it's a turning point that a. lot of people I think have faced was. do I just continue redoing the 48 Laws. of Power? It was successful, it worked. well. Why don't I just write the 48 Laws. of Power part two? It'll bring in money,

it'll bring in attention. I'll just riff. off what I wrote there. And something about me was not. comfortable with that. It seemed cheap, it seemed easy, and it seemed lazy. And. I know myself that if I'm not challenged. by something different, I grow bored. So I have to write something that feels. like there's energy behind it. There's. anger, there's love, there's something. powerful behind it. I have to feel it or.

it won't be in the words. So if I'm just. doing the 48 Laws of Power part two, it won't be there. It'll have an. emptiness. And damn it, a lot of artists. and writers fall into that trap and it's. why their books kind of have this sort. of hollow ring to them. Right? They're just going through the. motions, just repeating what worked. before. And I can't stand that feeling. I have to feel like. I'm off into a new land with this new. book. So each book has to represent a.

challenge, right? And so the one I'm writing now is. completely different from all seven of. the other books. And it's an incredible challenge, but it. makes me excited about every day because. I know I cannot repeat. the same kind of books over and over. over again. My soul becomes dead and I. have to feel alive with each project. Am I answering your question? I keep. feeling like I'm not answering You are. You're totally answering my question. I'm loving these personal answers. No, no, I I can resonate very deeply with. that as well. I always try and write. about something that I'm.

working through or struggling with, whether it's personal, whether it's with. clients, whether it's with. someone in my life, friends, family. Like it feels alive. It needs to feel. alive. I can't write from a point of. theory or knowing. Yeah. Like the book has to be a discovery. Exactly. just started my journey. I've only. written two books, but as I'm hearing. you, I'm I'm happy to. that I feel that I'm. thinking about it in a healthy way. Yeah. Because yeah, I was I was about to. write my third book, and.

the topic everyone wanted was so. predictable and expected, and it made. sense. And I was like, I don't want to. write about something that makes sense. Like that's boring. Like it's like I. want to write about something that feels. like alive in my life, and electric, and. makes me I'm like now that I've chosen I. will tell this to you later, but I've. chosen my next topic, and I've just been. like writing notes about it. I'm reading. about it. I'm seeing connections and. doing. that means it's going to be a great. book. Yeah, it just it feels I mean it's. harder. It's harder because you don't. know. So you're spending more time like.

we said earlier, you're spending more. time with emptiness. Yeah. Because. there's a sense of well, I don't know. which direction this book's going to go. in. Yeah. So it's it's that comfortable. with discomfort and uncertainty. Yeah. But there's a joy in that. Yeah, very. much so. Yeah. When you're when you're. discovering your process through a book. or or work, how have you learned to. become. comfortable in the discomfort of. creativity. in that. like you don't know where the path's. going to take you, don't know if it's.

going to land or not, you you don't know. if it like how are you how are you. grappling with that process of what. we're discussing? Well, it's very. strange, because I'm dealing with it. right this very moment. I'm writing. something that's driving me crazy. And it's this And the very subject I'm. writing about is about what I'm going. through. So, I'm writing it This is in my book on. the sublime and I'm writing about the. concept of the daemon. Are you familiar. with that? Mhm. It's the idea It's an ancient Greek.

idea, but it's in many other cultures. that we have a second self. That there's something There's a voice. inside of us. that is guiding us to something higher. or better, but it can also lead us to. something lower and worse. It can be. demonic, which is where the word comes from, or. it could be something And Socrates had. his daemon. It was a voice inside of. him. And it said. It always just said, "This is the right. way to go, or this is the wrong way to. go." Nothing more than that, right? And.

so, when I'm writing. it doesn't feel right. It's driving me crazy and I'm going. through this right now. It doesn't feel. right. It doesn't resonate. It's not. truth. It's not real. You got to start. over. You got to do it again. In the. back of my mind, I'm thinking, "God, I've lost it. I'm getting old and I just don't have my. mojo anymore.". But then I realize I've gone through. this like 85 times, every single book. It'll come to you. It'll come back. This.

isn't right because it doesn't feel. right. It doesn't resonate. It doesn't. have a reality to it. So, I have to go. through this process where I write. something and it excites me and it. interests me and it just flows out of me. as opposed to like I have to pull every. word out. And so, I learn to trust. myself that eventually I'll figure it. out. But each time I hit that wall, I. go, "This is it, Robert. You're. finished. The book isn't going to come. out. You're done. The wells are dry.". You know, so. Yeah. That's so interesting. I feel like.

that is every creative's journey. Like. it has to go through that. The wells are. dry, as you just said. That kind of. experience of. that's it. It's over. There's nothing. else coming out now. I'm like, you know, and and it's almost like we as as we. know like the cliche of like it's on the. other side of that feeling. But it's But. it's true that there is a sense of. when everything is just not making. sense. How have you learned to sense. whether something feels true to you?

Because it obviously felt true to. someone. How How do you decipher between. oh, this feels true. It feels real to me. even if people don't agree with it. Cuz. it just feels that way. It It's purely. just a feeling. First of all, it it like. I'm always trying to get at what's real. and and not at what's theoretical. I. have a real dislike of abstraction for. its own sake. Right? It feels like it's. it's it's it's a. a way of alluding something. It's It's. It's an evasion.

I want to get at the core and the. reality of what I'm trying to write. about. And so when I get it, I feel it and I. know that I've done that. And I and I. have the reader in my mind and I know. the reader can connect to it. It's It's. going to have a personal appeal. Whereas. I have a tendency to be abstract and. professorial and theoretical, I cross. all of that out. You If you saw my. notebooks, 95% of it's crossed out and I. don't let the public ever see that side. of me because I don't like it. I want my.

books to feel. like I'm I'm hitting something that's. actually truthful and real that people. don't like to talk about kind of thing, you know? So right now, I'm writing. about what is our self? What is the. sense of self that we have in our world? It's a very limited idea of the self. We. have very limited idea of our. consciousness. We have very limited idea. of what it means to be a human being in. the 21st century. We're actually much. more immense and much more interesting.

than we think we are. We have these. possibilities, these connections, because we're a part of something. incredibly vast. And to have. consciousness is absolutely an. astounding thing. Mhm. Right. So, I want to sort of expand what. you, the reader, thinks of who you are, what yourself is. It's much larger than. you imagine. But, I have to. it convey that in language that feels. right to me, that feels authentic, that. feels like everybody.

in Africa, in China in in India, in. Idaho is going to be able to relate to. it, you know? Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, I know. I know, for. sure. And that's I think that's what I. was alluding to with that invisible. world point of like how. that's what we don't see. Like, there's. so much to ourself that we don't see, that we're fully unaware of, that we. don't have we don't realize we have. access to. Right. And. yeah, it is finding the right. terminology I find to be such a There's.

There's one word that which is a bit. more ethereal, but. I guess an astronomer could find some. beauty in it, but there's a term in the. Vedic literature is called Antar Akash, which means inner sky. Say Say it again. Antar Akash. Antar means inner, and. Akash means sky. Inner sky? Yeah, inner sky. Beautiful. And it's this idea of how. you know, we're so fascinated by outer. space, but there's that same inner sky. that exists. So, just that like the. galaxy and the planetary systems and.

everything else, that exists internally, too. Oh, after But, but there has to be. a just as we have to go and do space. exploration. Yeah. you could do the same internally. Oh, for sure. discover so much. That's exactly what I'm writing about. That's very interesting. And and and it's Yeah, it's fascinating. And so, yeah, I find language is what I. find vocabulary so needed, and I feel. like I grew up. with a small vocabulary, but not the. biggest, and I feel reading, of course, expands that, and especially when you.

read history and other books, and I. found that. it's language is just so powerful, and I. I worry that social media exposes us to. such limited language. that the brain and the mind and the. consciousness doesn't have the. opportunity to be expansive, because the words don't allow for it. If. we're all reading the same memes and the. same trends and the same hashtags, and. it it kind of just creates this very, very limited space of consciousness. Well, that's why I like looking at other.

languages. I've I speak several other. languages, and I'm constantly learning. them. And then right now I'm reading a. a lot about an African. culture. called the Akan. um in West Africa, in Ghana, and their. their concepts of the soul, the spirit, and the body, and they have a word in. there called Sunsum, and we translate it to spirit, but then. I'm reading the African philosophers who. actually know that word, and they go,

"It's not the it's not the same as the. word spirit." And then they go on to. describe it. And that one word contains. all of these other worlds that are so. weird and interesting that the word. spirit in English does not convey, right? You know? And other languages. have that sense. And so, language can. have that possibility where it opens up. it's not just this. this one track meaning. It has other. balances, other possibilities to it, right?

And so, yeah, we're kind of. deadening our language in a way. You know, if you study like other. cultures, you know, Eskimos had like a thousand. words for for snow, and we have one. word, you know? Russians have like 40. words for the color blue, and we have. one word, kind of thing. Our As the. language gets smaller and smaller and. more uniform, our thoughts become more. and more limited and uniform. So, to.

know here a word like inner sky, it opens up all these other ideas in. your mind. Mhm. Whereas we don't have a. word like that in English, you know? Mhm. And and then cuz I'm I'm doing things. with Zen, Japanese language is so rich. with things that we can't possibly even. begin to express in English, you know? So, yeah. What what have been other ways. of people opening up their minds? This. has been something. one of my favorite things to do. I. remember reading a quote from Robin.

Sharma years ago that said um. ordinary people have big TVs, extraordinary people have big libraries. Uh-huh. And and it was one of those. you know, little dreams I had that was like one. day I have a home, I'm going to have a. big library. And and that was one of my. most favorite things to kind of put. together when I when I moved here. And um. I started spending more time in when I. would travel, I've always collected. books. I've always. And and I started also collecting.

expanding my audio library. I realized. as I grew, when I was growing up, we. listened to a very limited form of music. in my home. And even as growing up as a. teenager, I listened to like one genre. of music. that? Uh rap and hip hop. Like that was. And again, I love rap and hip hop. I. love rap and hip hop history. It's super. cool. I have no issues with it. I just. think that my audio library was so. limited in my teens. that now that I'm in my 30s, I'm now. listening I'm trying to listen to so.

many random different things, which. again inspire different thoughts, different feelings, different emotions. And so, I realized that vocabulary was. one thing, audio has been another thing. What are other things that you've. discovered that help open up that. consciousness and mind? Because. as we both keep referring to, social. media technologies is almost making us. more limited, more singular, more. one-dimensional. Well, um. it is something I'm I'm writing about. right now. So, music and the audible. stuff is very very interesting and very.

exciting. So, this is new phenomenon where. musicologists. have been able to recreate music from. eras that we never could listen to. before. So, I was writing at one point. about. a. festival in ancient Greece. And to put. me in the mood, I wanted to hear ancient. Greek music. Well, that doesn't exist. I mean, no. recordings of it. But sure enough, there. are. And the rhythms.

and the sound is so weird and alien that. it makes it music captures the spirit of. a time, right? So, if we're only hearing these same. melodies, you hear cars going by with. that same kind of pop song. It's such a limited circle of harmony, such a limited circle of what music can. be. But when you open up to African music, to music from ancient Babylonia, to. Greece, to music in South America, other.

rhythms, other poetry in in music and. sounds, it's mind-blowing. It's interesting. So, that's what I'm saying that the human. animal is much more interesting than we. think it is. Reading about ancient cultures is a very. mind-expansive. um project you can go on. Do you have. any books you'd recommend in that. regard? You know what's so exciting now is they. have these books called The Daily Life. in The Daily Life in Ancient Babylonia,

The Daily Life in um I forget which city. in India, The Daily Life in Ancient. Greece, etc. And you get a feel for not just the. grand philosophical issues, but how. people ate, what their houses were like. And so, um so, I was writing a I just. wrote a chapter about our relationship. to time and history. And I was trying to take the reader in. my new book, I'm giving them exercises.

And I'm saying, "Try to imagine yourself. in a world a thousand years ago, and you. walk out your front door. There's no mechanical sounds. There's no. airplanes. There's no cars. There's no. machines. It's just birds. Maybe a saw. and a hammer is the most you're going to. hear. That's a strange thing. There are no. signs. There no advertisements. There's. no words everywhere. It's kind of empty, right? You're just wandering around. There are all these kind of rancid, weird, horrible smells cuz people aren't.

bathing. There's no But, they're very. human smells, right? Your whole sensory. experience is on another level. But, when you live in this 21st century. world, where things are so sanitized, well, we don't smell these things. We. only hear these packaged mechanical. sounds. Your sensory world is shrinking. down and down and down. And you realize, yeah, ancient world, they had some bad. stuff. They weren't very good, you know, they had slavery. I I I understand all.

of the negatives. I'm not painting this. portrait. But, on another level, their realm of senses, their realm of. language, their internal worlds were far. richer than ours. And by connecting to. that, by reading these books, by reading. books, not just the daily life thing I. said, but actually text from those. times, as I was mentioning when I read a. monk, a Zen monk from the 11th century, and the different thought processes, it. opens my mind to a different way of.

thinking, to a different way of. accessing reality. Mhm. But, like I'm. reading a lot about Aztecs, cuz I'm sort. of obsessed the Aztecs. I don't know. why. And they had these amazing spectacles. That was the thing about the ancient. world, these festivals and spectacles. that are far beyond Burning Man or any. rock concert, right? You know, I could describe the fire. ceremony in Aztec culture that only. occurred every 70 years. There is. nothing you can ever imagine in your. life that would be like that. It is so.

utterly spectacular. And so I have this. 800-page book called Aztec philosophy. It's very theoretical. But God, it gives you an an entree into a totally. different way. of thinking about the world. Right? Where they have these metaphors. that the universe has this energy. Some. of the energy is like string that's. being wound around a certain way. It's.

like weaving like other other things. like that. This kind of energy that the. world has. Wow, this is fascinating. You know, our ancestors were actually. thinking of but they're not our They're. us. It's a human being. We're all human. We all have that same kind of. consciousness. Yeah. You know, I I love also finding. things in cultures that match but are in. different languages. And so. Like what? So I went to Hawaii a few. years ago, which obviously for someone. who grew up in London it's not normal.

People in America or LA travel to Hawaii. fairly often. I went to Hawaii and um. I don't often. It's more accessible, but. I went recently and. my wife and I went went on one of the. tours there and they showed us. uh the petroglyphs which are there. obviously like markings and storytelling. uh technique and tool. And they were showing us how when a. child is born they used to place the. umbilical cord on the ground and they. would then draw a spiral around it. And. that would be seen as a place that the.

child could always come back to to feel. the energy and reconnect with the earth. Oh, exciting. And I was thinking that's spectacular. I. wish everyone felt this connected to the. earth. And then we would go out every. morning on a canoe, I forget their name. for it, but they had their version for. it, and they would pay respects to the. sun and the ocean. And we would take part in this ceremony. with them. And in India, there's something known as. Surya Namaskar, which it translates to. sun salutation. Sure. Which again, I've talked to Andrew.

Huberman about this. This is like. kicking off the circadian rhythm, but. the goal is you pay your respects to the. sun for everything it offers to you and. the energy that it provides. And so, to. see that in Hawaiian culture, Indian. culture, and then I was in Bhutan. recently. I went on a trip to Bhutan, which I'd always wanted to visit. And this is a culture that really feels. like. you're going back in time. Like you walk. out there and it feels like what you. just described a thousand years ago. Where is Bhutan? Is it near Pakistan? between India and China. India and.

China. So, right in between. Where they're. where they're having their tensions, the. kind of wars that's going on a little. bit, or. Bhutan doesn't have a war, no. They. don't even have a military. It's not. part of their culture. They they believe. in uh they're a. Buddhist nation. Is it a Buddhist nation? Yes, yes. And their practices are very protected. Their culture is very protected. Like. everyone's generally still wears the the. the cultural dress. Oh, exciting. Um it was it was. spectacular. There's no I There may be a.

couple of these now, but until very. recently, there's no malls, no cinemas, no. uh restaurants, like completely. And. it's beautiful because it's just hills. and mountains. They believe that the. forest will always be 70% of the land. mass because they believe they're. sacred. You can't trek up to or ski on. any of their mountains because they're. sacred. They protect them. So, there's a. And and you almost I almost felt like. what you just said, there's no signs. You can't hear anything. There's no.

machinery like it really does feel like. that. Yeah. And we all all of us who were. there experienced this sense of slowness. that you don't experience anywhere else. And not in a bad way, in a in a the mind. the gravity almost of the space was. really really powerful to experience. That's very exciting because, you know, you can go out into nature into the. mountains and you can feel that. And you. can feel like this is what it was like.

2,000 100,000 years ago. But we don't have that feeling with. human things because every city has its. Starbucks, its malls, its generic. culture that we've transported. throughout the world. So to have a place where you can. actually go back in time. is fantastic. But I wish it wasn't so far away, you know. Yeah, yeah. It's It's far It's. far. It's worth visiting for anyone who. wants to. It was a really special trip, but you're right. The the generic.

culture is the right word actually. There's there's a every street looks the. same. Every area looks the same. You You. I know there's a lot of passion behind. local businesses and it's healthy. People want to support local business. We need more of that because the generic. culture really takes away from like you. expect I mean I was in India just. recently on the way back and it's like. there was a Tim Hortons like right. there. What? A Tim Hortons which I think. is like popular in Canada or something. like that. Is it popular in the US Tim.

Hortons? No, it's Canada. Or my wife was. telling me about it, but it was just one. of the It's It's And then there was a. Starbucks. And then it was the same. same thing. I was like I'm in India like. you know like I I I don't not expect it, but it's yeah, it's the generic. That's. what's. made the brain so dull. It has. Yeah. Yeah, we're becoming homogenized. I mean I I like going to countries like. Mexico because there's still pockets in. Mexico where you can feel something of. another very different culture. You.

know, it's only in small little areas, but it's very exciting nothing like. Bhutan. But you can still get it a little bit, you know. Yeah. Robert, it's been such a joy. talking to you today and as always I. love how we just get lost and this is. what I wanted. I was I was craving a. authentic real connection where both of. our minds are in this moment. Okay, yeah. Um but I want to end with a. few. uh. solid fast-paced questions. We call this. the fast five. Uh and I probably did it. with you last time so I'm going to.

change it up this time to you. my mind is fast enough to keep up with. you. So you have to answer the questions. It's more like the final five. You've. got to answer the questions in one word. to one sentence maximum. So. Uh Robert Greene, these are your final. five. The first question is. what is something you had wished you'd. learned earlier? The piano. I mean I know you were. probably thinking about. something. about life. But I love music and I wish I had. learned the piano when I was young.

still play? Do you play now? No. No, okay. Uh second question. What is something that you used to be. sure about but that you now are less. sure about? I guess a sense of. right and wrong or good good and evil. Mhm. When I was young I had a very strong. sense of it. It's a great answer. And now I'm not so sure about what it. is. It's a great answer. Uh question number three. If you could go back and live in any.

age, I'm thinking you're going to say. the Aztecs but uh. where would you like to go and where. would you want to live and what would. you ask? I would go back. to the Paleolithic era. and our earliest ancestors. because I'm fascinated by their world. and what they were like. So, the Paleolithic is. 20,000 years ago. Okay? And I would uh like to know about their.

their religion, their spirituality. I'm interested in origins of human. consciousness, so. Have you read any books on that that. Yes. What would you recommend if. someone's. It's the subject that was just my last. chapter I was writing about. Wow. The origin of language is the origin of. of human consciousness. Wow. It's the same time that there were the. cave paintings, right? The famous cave paintings in France, but. they're all over the world. Aborigines, et cetera. And that was the beginning of.

symbolic consciousness. Yeah, there are all sorts of books. written on that subject. Amazing. Question number four. If you could have three people over at. your dinner party, any three people you. choose living or dead, who would they. be? Well, it would be Friedrich. Nietzsche because I'm reading a. biography of his right now that's. unbelievable. Um. the other would be Buddha. Why not? And then the other would be uh.

It's very odd mix of people, so I don't. know if they're going to get along. though, isn't. Um. yeah, I I'd say uh okay, maybe Socrates. Okay. And and let the fur fly. Uh fifth and final question, Robert. I. find these stressful. They are. They are. stressful. Um. something you're trying to learn right. now. To be more forgiving about myself. because I'm extremely unforgiving.

With yourself? Yeah. Not easy. It's not been my life pattern. Where did. the pursuit begin and why is it a a. pursuit? Well, I think. um of my upbringing, I always had a. feeling of never good enough. I'm never smart enough. I'm not doing. enough. I'm not a good enough person, and I internalized that. And so um. it's probably partially led to my.

stroke. Probably lit me drive makes me drive. myself too hard. And so. sometimes I just have to be more. forgiving. So. instead of thinking, "God, I'm never. going to write anymore at the well is. dry.". The the forgiving aspect is, "Robert, you're tired. You're exhausted. You're doing fine. It's going to come. It will come. Just trust it.". So it's kind of like. in you know. being indulgent towards yourself.

I can be indulgent towards other people, but I can't be indulgent towards myself. So. just learning to. forgive myself for not being perfect and. for not. getting exactly what I want in life. It's does the hardest thing for me. Mhm. That's beautiful. It'd be very good for my health if I. could if I could ever get there. That's. beautiful. Thank you, Robert. You're. welcome. Everyone, Robert Greene. I hope. you enjoyed this episode of me and. Robert truly just having a genuine. passionate conversation about things we.

love. Please share on TikTok, on X, on. Instagram, on Facebook, whatever. platform you use in the YouTube comment. section what resonated with you, what. books you're going to read, what you. connected with. Maybe some of the. creatives out there who want to shift. the way they think or whether you got. some great insights on what are strong. and weak character points. I want to. know what hit you, what resonated with. you. And thank you so much for listening. and watching. And thank you again, Robert, for your time. so much for having me. and energy. So grateful. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. That.

means a lot. Yeah, we could go on for. hours. truly. If you loved this episode, you'll love. my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on. understanding your trauma and how to. heal emotional wounds to start moving on. from the past. Everything in nature. grows only where it's vulnerable. So, a. tree doesn't grow where it's hard and. thick, does it? It grows where it's soft. and green and vulnerable.