Riz Ahmed: The Shame I Carried Nearly Broke Me

I have long deep history with this. critical voice and this shame and I. really think it can kill you, man. >> What part of you still feels like it. doesn't belong? >> Different parts of me in every place. that I go to. >> If you felt totally comfortable. everywhere you went, then you're. probably not in the right place. >> What is Riz Ahmed's dream? External. markers of achievement, the award, the. round of applause. They don't nourish. you on a soul level and the thing that. I'm seeking now is a sense of flow. That. moment when you forget yourself.

>> Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the place you come to become. happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone I've been. wanting to have in this seat for God. knows how many years. I'm joined by the. one, the only Riz Ahmed, Academy. Award-winning actor, writer, producer, and artist known for Sound of Metal, Rogue One, and The Night Of, and for. bringing deeply human stories to life. Riz is currently starring in Bait. If. you haven't seen it, make sure you do. A.

series exploring identity and the. tension between who we are and how we're. seen. His reimagined film Hamlet and. Digger, his new film coming later this. year. Please welcome to On Purpose, Riz. Ahmed. Riz. Honestly, whether it was post-9/11. blues, whether it was Four Lions, we've been with you from the start. I've. been. >> Oh, man. Thank you so much. >> a huge fan of. how you put yourself out there, the. conversations you have, your.

multi-disciplinary art form, and. honestly, I've been waiting for this. moment I feel like for like God, at. least at least 7 years since I launched. the show. >> Likewise, Jay, because I'm watching you. and I've just been rooting for you from. the beginning. And you know, we were. just saying this before the camera. started rolling. We have so many people. in common in the work world, but also in. the personal world, cuz we grew up not. too far away from each other in kind of. overlapping worlds as well. So, seeing. you doing your thing, blazing a trail, is just super inspiring. So, likewise,

man, I've been itching to get in here. and and yeah, talk to you. >> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was. thinking about it and and I I want to. vouch for this cuz I like doing this. when I've got someone on the show, when. I've got a memory that stands out to me. And it was probably around 5 years ago, I think it was. You'd been nominated for. an Oscar. We had this South Asian Oscars. evening in LA. And you were at the. party. I It was probably the only time. I've actually been in the room with you. It was me, you, and we were talking to. Bella, Bella Bajaria, who's chief. content officer at Netflix, dear friend. And you said to Bella, you were like,

"Give this guy a show, man." Like, you. were like you were vouching for me even. back then. You were like, "Give him a. show, Bella. Like, what are you doing?". And I was like, "This is I was like, this is so nice. I'll take it.". [laughter] Like, "You're the man of the. moment. You're nominated for the Oscar. and you're trying to get me a show." And. now we've got three shows at Netflix. So, >> Amazing. >> I was like I feel like you planted a. very important seed. And I want to give. you your flowers, give you credit for. that, man. >> For me, the reason I was rooting for you. was because. of not just what you have to say, cuz of. course what you say is is so rooted in.

this ancient tradition, it's how you say it. It's how. approachable it is. It's how human it. feels. It's how relatable it felt. Just. even selfishly on a personal level, when. I hear you speak, when I see the way that you're relating. to people or making these things that. can sometimes feel very abstract or kind. of elusive ideas, esoteric ideas, and. bring them into the everyday, bring them. into our daily lives, it makes me feel. less stupid. Do you know what I mean? It. makes me feel like, "Okay, yeah. Okay,

yeah. All right. I can I understand I. get to grips with that." And and I'm. certainly one of those people who for a. long time thought, "Oh, what's this. meditation stuff? What is this? This is. kind of a bit airy-fairy." And it. actually became such a big part of my. life for many years and changed my life. in so many different ways. It's really. because of people like you making it. relatable, making it human. So, yeah, on. on personal level, I was like, I need. more J Shek in my [laughter] life. >> You're too kind, man. Thank you. That. means the world. It's an incredible. moment for you. I feel like you're. everywhere in a good way. I feel like.

Bait has just pierced through the. zeitgeist in the culture. I mean, 95% on. Rotten Tomatoes. Unbelievable. Like, that that is ridiculous to even think. about. >> And like, to see the kind of. conversations it started. It's not just, "Oh my god, you should watch this show. It's really good." It started. conversations about identity, about. shame, about mental health, about inner. critic, about guilt, about all these. things. And And you see it. Wherever. Wherever I go on my feed, whether it's. TikTok or Instagram, either it's you or.

someone talking about the show. How does. it feel to put yourself out there in. such a vulnerable way because this story. has so much of a correlation with your. reality? How does it feel to put. yourself out there almost not wanting. validation and then to be validated for. it? >> It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the whole show is about. validation seeking and how it can lead. us down a really dangerous path. Um it's very natural, it's very human. We're social animals to want that. connection, want that praise, want that.

affirmation, to be seen. But, if you are. purely dependent on that external. validation and you're not giving. yourself that self-love, you can become. completely lost. And that's what the. show is about. And the show is really. inspired by my own journey with that. You know, I've been on that journey. I. continue to go on that journey. I'm I. haven't fixed it. I haven't solved the. equation. It's a constant battle, you. know, trying to find that self-love and. not just be on a treadmill looking for. it from other places. So, the show is. about that.

And about trying to get past validation. So, in a weird way, when people are. validating the show, I'm like, this is a trap. [laughter]. Do you know what's interesting? I was. saying something that is to someone the. other day, which is. I've never been great at receiving. praise. Just now, when you were saying. all these nice things about me, I was. actually saying, "Okay, I'm here with. Jay Shetty. I'm going to open my heart, try and be present, and receive receive. the good energy." But, something in me, and I'm sure you've come up come up. against this with all kinds of people. I. don't know how you deal with it yourself.

even. Something about receiving praise. sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable. >> Mhm. >> And so, I'm trying to find that balance. of not being desperate and hungry for. it. You know, you can't live off a diet of. this candy of these dopamine hits of. people's praise. But, also just receive. it and not avoid it. I can sometimes. swing between those extremes. You know, there's on the one hand there's googling. yourself late at night, >> [laughter]. >> and on the other hand it's like going. like, "No, no, it's nothing. It's. rubbish." You know. And so, I'm just trying to find that. healthy middle ground cuz the show is.

about that in a way. >> Yeah, no, I I I find that powerful. because I feel like it's almost like my. friend said this to me the other day, and I really liked it. It's this idea of. like too tight, too loose. Like. sometimes you're holding yourself too. tightly. Like everything matters and. everything's important. Yes. And then. sometimes you don't hold yourself tight. at all. It's too loose, and you're like, "Oh, nothing matters. No, it doesn't. matter what anyone else says about me.". And it's like, if you think about it, you're always trying to oscillate. between too tight, too loose. You're. trying to find that perfect balance of. like, "How do I hold myself in a way I. don't suffocate myself or strangle.

myself? But, how do I hold myself in a. way that I don't also just. let myself go?". >> Yeah. >> Where where nothing is important or. valuable. And I was thinking about it. cuz in the show we get so many of these. flashbacks into Shah's childhood, his. teenage years. I've seen the show. I. loved it, and I have been talking about. it with colleagues and friends and. people who have all had interesting. reflections on it. Both people from. South Asian backgrounds and people from. completely not. And that's what I love. about the show is that it starts really. fascinating dialogues beyond culture and.

gender and race. But, one of the things that stood out I. wanted to ask you is, what's a childhood. memory that you have that you would say. defines who you are today? >> When I was about 8 years old, me and my. brother got put up against the wall by a. couple of. skinheads, right? For people outside of. the British context, they're kind of. like it was like a racist movement, basically. Then they put a knife to my. brother's throat. I remember being 8. years old, looking up at him. He was. kind of defending me. And it was just the this kind of. shocking realization that oh, I'm.

different. I'm different in a way that. means I could be in danger. And feeling othered in that way made me. more vigilant, made me more aware of my. identity. In many ways, it set me on a. lifelong journey of trying to like. square the circle of my identity. In. some periods of time, I've tried to. code-switch a lot. If I've gone to a. predominantly white upper-class school, which I did, I'd code-switch in that way. Then I'd. hang out in my neighborhood, I'd. code-switch another way. And I think.

that journey has defined me. I think. that's how why I started acting was kind. of code-switching from one social. environment to another. It's It's a kind. of performance, right? And where am I. now? And really what the show Bait is. also trying to do and what it's about, it's about that search for identity. So, I'm trying to bring all those different. sides of me together, not edit and. censor myself when I walk into a room. I did this monologue for SNL UK recently. and I was working with the writers on. it. And it was about identity crisis. And I was I'm having an identity crisis, the UK is having one, everyone's having. an identity, we're all trying to work. out who we are. And I said, "Look,

that's why I stand like a mix between. Stormzy and Rishi Sunak.". >> [laughter]. >> And just trying to embrace that, and be. playful about that confusion. I think. that moment of realizing my difference. and navigating identity was a big one. The other one's a lot more of a playful. memory. Every time there was a community. gathering, at some point, the aunties would be high. on Coca-Cola and Fanta. And they would. say, "Bring Golu down." Golu was my name. in the community. Golu means roundo. Little spherical round object. Don't.

Apparently, my brother named me Golu, I. had a round head growing up. Don't ask. "Bring Golu down. It's time." And I. would perform and I would do Michael. Jackson dancing. And I would do like just right and it. honestly. they basically I'd be smashed off. Coca-Cola as like a 6-year-old just like. just freaking out just throwing my limbs. in I just remember these rows of aunties. just sat there clapping just feel like. this is the best feeling ever. I'm just. getting to express these quite wild.

animal movements. It didn't look nothing. like how dancing should look. I would. basically freak out in this really. expressive way. and be affirmed for it. Quite strange. but I don't know if anyone else can. relate to that [laughter] if any other. kids out there were brought down to. dance for the aunties but I'd say the. mixture of those two things you know. self-expression and navigating identity. is something that could be a bit. dangerous. Those two elements I think. have.

kind of really forged my whole path and. I've been exploring. how those two things relate to each. other my whole life. >> Yeah, I'm fascinated by those two. memories because they're like you said. one's playful. and has certain consequences with what. happens with that the validation the the. praise the applause for losing control. and then the other one is actually quite. to be in that threatening place as a. young man with your brother and. feeling the the racist implications of. having that kind of a interaction with. someone. >> So many people go through I mean sure. I'm sure you've experienced a lot of.

that. >> 100%. >> When you said Golu I was like so I was. overweight growing up. So I was bullied. for that. I was bullied for the color of. my skin cuz the area I grew up in there. weren't a lot of people of our color. And so I I get it like I I hear that and. that doesn't make it any more normal or. easy or better for any of us. It's just. like no that's what you went through but. I can also relate to the other side of. the aunties. I can totally relate to everything you. just said wrong. I'm just like we'd be. at like an event and the actor pulled. out or something and then my mom would. be like all right you got to go on stage.

and save the day and I'm like what do. you mean? Like, I haven't prepared. anything. I'm not ready for this." And. I'd have to figure it out. >> We're all out here just trying to please. aunties. >> Literally. Literally. What is up with. that? What is up with that? And the funny. thing is, where I was saying this to you. earlier and I saved it, but I was like, you know, like you you kind of you lived. the auntie's dream. Like, you went to a. great school. You then went to Oxford and did PPE. For. anyone who doesn't know, that's the. Prime Minister's degree. Like, the Prime. Ministers of England, I think pretty. much every single one of them did. PPE at Oxford as a subject. Like, it is.

it is the most world-class degree you. could possibly do in the whole entire. country. Then you go, "I want to become. an actor." And then you go be an actor, too. I'm like, you did it. Like, you you. did the academic dream. You did the You. did your dream. Like, when you look at. it from that perspective of, "Hey, wait. a minute. I actually lived. every dream here.". When you look back and go, "What is my. dream now?" Or uncovering what what is. Riz Ahmed's dream? Do you have anything. that feels close? >> You know, it's so interesting hearing. you say this cuz I don't know if you.

have this, Jay. If I sit back here and I. say, "Jay, you've done this thing. You. brought kind of mindfulness and this. Eastern philosophy to like the world. You've got the world's number one health. podcast." All this kind of stuff. You're aware of those things possibly as. facts. But your internal experience of. it, does it really land like that? Or does. it feel like a series of. mistakes that went right, moments of. hubris that went wrong, a journey that's. constantly unfolding that you're not.

quite in control of? And in many ways, like, you don't stop. to like breathe it, but maybe you I. mean, I'm sure you stop to breathe all. the time. So, you stop to kind of in you. know, kind of really have check. [clears throat] out that perspective. But when you're saying um these things. about kind of living the dream or. whatever, I guess I don't see it like. that. I feel very grateful for my. journey. And maybe the reason why I don't see it. like that is I've realized that all. these kind of external markers of. achievement, they don't really land.

They don't really land in the way you. think they will. The award, the round of applause, these fleeting. moments, these moments of kind of these. dopamine hits, those moments of the. little kid dancing in front of the. aunties being handed another cup of. Coca-Cola in a round of applause and a. you know, those moments, they feel nice. They feel good, but they're but they're. very very fleeting. They don't nourish. you on a soul level, those external. things. I think what we're searching for as. artists, as storytellers, as actors, but.

really any of us is a sense of flow. You know that moment when you forget. yourself? >> Mhm. >> It's that feeling when you're not. literally self-conscious. And you talk about this so much, right? And this this feeling of connection to. all beings and all people and every now. and again in a fleeting moment where. you're lost in a jigsaw puzzle you love. or video game or a or on stage. performing or in a conversation, playing. with your kid, you forget yourself. And. that's the thing I'm chasing. >> Mhm. >> It's trying to.

live in that as much as possible both in. my. art and in my life. I want to try and just find a way of. just. just living as close as possible to that. pocket rather than these milestones and. these trophies. and these things of achievement. Of. course, we all have an ego, we need one. We're still setting goals, we're still. setting targets, we're still living in. this world, but. I've realized in a weird way having. achieved some of those things, having.

ticked some of those boxes, it doesn't feed your soul in the way you. think it will. >> It makes so much sense because I think. as humans we're only good at living in. the two extremes. So one is life is all. about goals, it's about the milestone. and it's about winning and I want to get. there. And then the other option is ah. none of that matters, I've just got to. be. And really it's all in the middle. somewhere like you're saying, which is I. need to have goals and I need to know. where I'm going, but I know that that's not the thing. that's going to feed my soul or make me. feel full. I've been just thinking about.

this a lot lately because I talk about. these things and I practice these. things, but then you meet someone who. does it better than you, more naturally, more effortlessly, and you go You're. talking about me, Jay? >> Yeah, yeah, I was talking about you. recently. I was talking about my wife. >> Thank you. >> I was talking about one of my friends. who's like, she can make like if she saw. a beautiful colored flower on the side. of a road, she would stop and grab them and feel. like someone just gave her a million. dollars. >> Oh, amazing. >> And it sounds ridiculous to say it, but. having watched her do that,

I'm just like, that's what I want. Like to be you know, to be able to turn that really ordinary. simple moment. >> Yes. >> into feeling like it's the most all And. we see this in kids. I know you're a. dad, too, and so like, you see this in. kids when you watch a kid just marvel at. something. And they're lost in the. moment. >> You know, there's that classic. stereotypical thing of like, I'm trying. to get everyone out of the house. Put on your shoes cuz we've got. somewhere to be. Milestone, objective, achievement, goal. And the kid is like.

playing with the Velcro on the shoes. And it's that. >> Yeah. >> That's the thing. That's what it's all. about. It's this moment. What you're. saying kind of reminds me of obviously. there's that cliché it's not a. destination, it's a journey, but I think. you need to set the destination so that. you get to experience the journey. And. that's what I'm talking about is like, you can aim to achieve XYZ, just know. that XYZ isn't going to be the juice. The juice is going to be that feeling of. flow that if you're lucky, you might.

feel trying to get there. You know, the love that we've got on. Bait was overwhelming for me in a way. because it was so personal, cuz it was. drawn from such a. all my insecurities and neuroses and. such a personal place, not cuz I'm. trying to do something that's all about. me, but actually because I think those. feelings are universal. >> Mhm. >> I started I was just saying to my wife, it's like, should I be enjoying that. more? Should it be landing more? And that's when I realized like it's. actually the reward was the process of. making it. Was the process of reaching.

inside to a vulnerable place and kind of. offering it up. There's that moment of. offering, is that moment of letting go. There's this sample at the start of a J. Cole track. um called The Climb Back. The track's. called The Climb Back and I think it's a. sample from a very old audiobook called. The Tower of Leadership. >> Mhm. >> And it says, you need to ask yourself. why are you doing this work? Is it to. get. or is it to let go?

>> Mhm. >> That's it. When you reaching inside to. share something and it's an offering, that is the reward, man. That feeling of. lightness, that expansiveness. The. things you get back from it, they're. nice, but it's never going to be the juice. Like that letting go was. So, I'm trying. to making my peace with that now. >> Summer is all about freedom and your. jewelry should reflect that. I think. there's something special about summer. because it invites us to be a little. lighter. We travel more, spend longer. evenings with the people we love, and. collect small moments that end up.

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Meyer, King Soopers, Smiths, and Frys. where you can grab a free June Shine on. us. So, head to. drinkjuneshine.com/kroger. to claim your free can in store so you. can feel better and live better. That's. huge though to even be attempting to do. that because it's so easy to stay on the. hamster wheel. It's almost easier to. just keep producing, keep building, keep. putting out, keep doing that thing. You. had this great line, I think you said it. in one of the interviews and it's it's. it's in the themes of beta. It's even in. I don't believe it might even be in the. show, but you said like life just feels.

like one big audition. And I wanted to ask you about that. I. think it's such a great line cuz I think. people are exhausted. feeling like their life just feels like. one big audition. >> Big time. >> And we see obviously your character. Charlotte Teeth like he's going for an. actual audition, but then his life turns. into pretending like everything has to. be about that moment and he has to be. that character in his normal life and I. think we do that to ourselves. Is it. possible to live as if life is not an. audition? >> Yeah, that is really the central idea of.

the show. That's why the show is based. around an audition. It's not really a. show about being an actor. It's about. this. We always feel like we are all. auditioning. And that's because I think of social. media. to a considerable extent, the attention. economy that we all exist in, that our. value is about our visibility. And so we're all constantly performing. this version of ourselves that we think. we should be. That we think people want us to be.

That's true on your LinkedIn profile, on. a Zoom call, on your social media just as it is for. an for an actor, right? Like here's the. script. I have to behave like a more. desirable, put-together, successful. version of myself, but actually I can't. make sense of this script of life, and. I'm having a panic attack. And so, how. do you switch that off? How do you kind. of like. stop performing? I think it's really. interesting because you could say, "Well, you know what? It's about being. really vulnerable.".

It's about embracing your messiness. You can also get into like performative. vulnerability. I think so much of it isn't about what. you do, it's about why you're doing it, and how you're doing it. And I have to. be honest, at least for myself, like. I've never gotten to a point where I. feel like I've cracked this. But I have. some days, some afternoons, where I just feel. like. it's not about me. >> Yeah. >> I've forgotten myself. I'm in that sense. of flow. And ironically, that's when things are.

going the best, you know, when I'm not. thinking about them in that way. But I. don't I mean, how do you kind of find. this as well, particularly kind of. operating in a world that's about. mindfulness and meditation and finding. your purpose on a spiritual level, but. of course the medium is often digital. and social media? And how do you square. that circle? Cuz it must be. in a way it's similar as like being an. actor. >> 100%. You know, you're trying to do. something spiritual and forgetting. yourself, but you're doing it with. people watching. >> I haven't figured it out either. It.

would be stupid to say I have. And and. I'm grappling with it, too, and that's. why this interview was so exciting to me. because the themes in Bay are so. universal, no matter what you do. And. like you said, whether someone's. applying for a job on LinkedIn or. whether they're just trying to make. their mom happy or whatever it may be, it's it's all in there. And so, for me, I started to realize that and you you'd. feel this way, but as an actor it's slightly different. because with an actor, everyone thinks. you are your roles. So, right? Like if someone meets Chris.

Hemsworth, they think he's Thor. And. like they think they're getting a. picture. >> out, man. Come on. >> Yeah, they think Yeah, they think. they're getting a picture with Thor. If. you see Robert Downey Jr., you think. you're with Iron Man. Like that's that's. you know, Tony Stark. Like that's who. you're in love with. You're not You. don't know who Robert Downey Jr. is. Same with Riz Ahmed. >> Whereas for you, the public and private. self, there's an authenticity, there's a. coherence to it. >> Yes, there is in the sense of yes, I do. this in real life and I do it online. But I'm also a complete human being with. lots of other desires and lots of other.

complexities. So like. what I try and do as much as I can, which helps me more than helps anyone. else, is like I try not to say anything. profound when I'm around people. >> [laughter]. >> because because it's people come over. for dinner party, they're expecting. Jay's going to be dropping some. >> And I'm like literally the plainest. >> yeah, just in Man United scores. >> Yeah, exactly. I would literally start. talking about football because all I'm. trying to do is like I don't want to. play up to the caricature of what I. think I've become. It's like a comedian.

that just thinks they have to be funny. all the time. So I can feel like oh god, I've just got to be everything that. comes out of my mouth has to be. profound. And not is not only is that. not realistic, it's not possible. I'm. not I'm a normal person. Like not. everything I say is like deep and. life-changing and and I don't even want. to be that. So it's this fascinating. thing that I'm always dealing with. >> If it makes you feel better, Jay, the. time we've spent you Have you always. felt me to be very superficial? >> Thank you, man. Very shallow. I know. that's what you want to hear. Yeah. But yeah, so I think my point is I'm. always in one sense compensating.

by creating moments of breaking the. image. >> You know, somebody said something really. interesting to me that in a way inspired. the whole show of bait, right? It was. this one thing was this feeling of life. for all of us feels like an audition. And the other thing was. the distance between your public and. private self. is the amount of shame that you carry. The distance between how you want to be. seen or how people see you. and who you are when no one's watching.

That performance that we are all living. in, that's actually about that's a. measurement of shame. And I was like, I. want to do something in that spot. And. for me, in that that space between those. two. versions of yourself, that space really. started opening up for me. a lot about 10 years ago when I started. to become more known um in America doing. some work here and doing things like. Star Wars. That is when it felt so at. odds, you know, the perception and the.

reality couldn't be more different. And. that's something that's stressful, absurd, but also kind of funny. And so, I wanted to kind of liberate myself of. that shame, hopefully invite other. people to liberate themselves of of that. shame as well by. by actually trying to collapse that. distance between the public and private. self. So, I'm always an actor. What if I. make a show that's. taking all my vulnerabilities and. neuroses and and laugh about them and. put them out there. And there's so much. in the show that's really directly from.

my upbringing. There's that skinhead. moment. >> Mhm. >> A version of it. I had a panic attack. once when I was supporting Wu-Tang Clan. in concert at Kentish Town Forum in. North London. We re-filmed me having a. panic attack at Kentish Town Forum. I. said, I want to do the same place. I. want to burst out into the same alleyway. and have the same panic attack there. Even, you know, the British security. services, MI5 and MI6, were recruiting. my character. They've tried to do that. with me. >> believe that. Yeah, that's a crazy. story. >> After After I became more known as an. actor, they reached out several times.

saying, "Do you want to help us with. messaging? Do you want to sit down?" I. was like, "No, I'm an artist. I'm not. getting involved, mate. No No, thank. you.". But, I just tried to take all these kind. of. moments of confusion and contradiction. and and and try and. put them out there because like you. said, that the gap between your public. and private self can feel like a. straitjacket. And I think we're all doing it. You. don't have to be you or me. Like I said, we're all kind of performing, it feels. like these days. >> Yeah. >> And I feel the challenges, and I love.

that idea, the one that you shared just. now, this the gap between your public. and private self, how big shame is, or. how deep the shame you experience is. And I think that the biggest challenge. becomes when you never leave the stage. And so, everyone has to perform, everyone has to perform at work, everyone has to perform with. family, you know, there there's going to. be places in your life where you have to. perform. Life is that way. But, if you. never leave the stage, and you feel like. your performance on stage is who you. are, and is reflective of your worth, that feels like when.

you're really stuck, because now you're. saying. the value I get from being on the stage. is all the value I have. And especially. if when you leave the stage, you're. trying to be as boring as possible. Do you know what I'm trying to say? You're trying to be as imperfect as. possible. What is love? What is your. safe place? What are your safe. relationships? Is that a place where you. don't have to perform? Where you get to. be the messy, chaotic, neurotic, boring. version of yourself? And so, these weird. things happen, it's like the place of. love and safety is a place where.

and it should be like this, you know, my. cousins. they laugh about what I do. You are. friends with one of my cousins, right? >> Yeah. >> And um. >> We used to play football together like. 15 years ago. >> Exactly, right? But, what I think I love. about that WhatsApp group with my. cousins is when I. got nominated for an Oscar for acting, one of my cousins genuinely was like, "Okay, cool. Like, what is that a big deal? Is that like. when I won regional employee of the. month?".

>> [laughter]. >> I was about to say like, "Well, I would. say it's not like winning regional. employee of the And then another cousin. came in and went, "No, it's not like. that, because you actually won that. award.". >> [laughter]. >> Regional employee of the month. He. didn't win. >> Oh, wow. >> And it's That's That's healthy. That's That's good. Do you know what I. mean? To have your safe place be one. where those things don't matter, where the performance is immaterial. But, it can be lopsided, right? So, what. people get addicted to being out there. and getting a pat on the back. Not only. are we trying to be liked or validated,

it's like. what bait again is set up for is trying. to be something you're not. So, obviously your character's trying to. become the next James Bond, and it's not. really about Bond. It's this idea of I'm. trying to be something I'm not. >> Mhm. >> And I think that is even more difficult. than just trying to be liked. Because before, there's one version of. you trying to be liked for who you are. And now, you're trying to be liked for. someone you'll never be. And that's like. an even more complicated place to be. because now you're taking on traits, personality types,

clothing, whatever. I mean, I'm half. disappointed you didn't show up in a tux. today. You know that, right? Like, it's. like for everyone else, it's subway. takes you show up in a tux. Everyone. else have to be This is where I get to. be boring. >> [laughter]. >> You're not boring. You look great. But, yeah, it's like but that idea of trying. to be someone we're not, I find that. to be like. the the golden handcuffs, the drug of. society where. I remember when I started when I left. the monastery and I started working in. the corporate world just to pay the. bills and survive.

I remember thinking to myself, this. place is trying to make me someone that. I'm not. >> Yeah. >> And I could spend 30 years here becoming. someone that I'm not. I could become. partner, could make money, whatever. And that's. the challenge people having to work with. because. we're lucky we get to express who we are. through our work and tell stories and. everything. But, when I think about. someone who's like, "Jah, I've got You. know, Riz, I'm That's what I've got to. do every day. Like, I have to be someone. I'm not.". >> Do you think that we all have an. essential essence and go, "This is who. you are"? Like I said, I grew up.

code-switching with these very different. sides to myself, wearing a school. uniform at school and then shalwar. kameez at home, and then Reebok Classics. and fake Versace out with my friends, literally changing costumes, accent, and. personality. It was a form of acting. Now, I try and. bring all of that together, making. things like Bait or my version of Hamlet. or whatever, where we bring these. different things together in one place. Do we have an essential center? Isn't it. just about our circumstances and our. environment? This is when I'm asking you to say. something profound, Jim.

I need you to help me out with this. What's your take on this? Do you think. we have like Okay, this is you at your. core and that's you at your core? I. believe that life is more about. a collection and connection of ideas and. stories and narratives that you've built. as opposed to a center that was always. the case and it can sound. easy to say it, but actually it's really. hard. Like I always say to people, I'm. as much in love with monk wisdom as I am. with building a media empire, as I am.

with being a loving partner, as I am. with. a good friend. Like I'm like in love. with all of those parts of myself. And. I'm like trying to become okay with all. of those things. Those things that are. seen as contradictions. Correct. And. paradoxical and they feel like they. don't mesh, but I'm like if everyone sat. down and asked themselves who they were, I think we all have paradoxes within. them. >> Yeah. >> We've been taught to say, "I'm an. accountant. I'm married. I'm Hindu. I'm whatever it. is." Like we've been taught to have very. simple labels.

which are very, you know, incomplete. >> Yeah. And I guess it's like less about. finding yourself means being in one. lane. >> Yeah. I don't believe in that. I think. that having all these different sides to. who we are is is human and universal and. healthy in a way. Over the last. 10 years or so, I kind of really went on. this journey of. trying to make work from a more personal. place. When I came into this.

game, I felt like for some reason I had. to justify it beyond just myself. enjoying it. Now, I'm like actually my. joy is valid. you know, joy. And if. other people take joy from my work, that's valid as well. But, I always felt. like it's got to be a have a greater. purpose, right? And for me, that was about trying to. stretch culture. This idea of one person at a time, one. film screening, one performance at a. time, opening people's hearts and minds. to an experience that they didn't think. they could relate to, but actually, wow,

I recognize myself in it. It's like, I. was a big fan of watching The Crown. Mhm. And you know when you're watching. The Crown, you're suddenly like, I'm the. Queen of England. >> [laughter]. >> That's me. I'm her. I totally get, you. know, how it's this amazing body swap. that story can achieve, right? And so, to try and open people's hearts and. minds to realizing that we're all the. same. We're all one. And and to stretch. culture in that way. And before I used to think, okay, that. means me popping up in all these roles. that are as different as possible to me,

>> Mhm. >> change people's ideas about who can play. that role. >> Mhm. >> Who can be in a Star Wars movie? And all. this kind of stuff. And now, more and. more, I think like. I want to share the messy contradiction. of myself. >> Mhm. >> I used to think acting was about putting. on the mask. Now, I think it's about. taking it off. It's actually about sharing the most. personal. thing possible. And. that ends up being the most universal. Yeah. thing, you know. It's something.

actually I've never I've never really. talked about publicly before, Jay, but. I did this film called Mogul Mowgli. And it's about a guy who an artist who. suddenly loses his ability to walk, becomes tremendously ill overnight, and. is never sure if he's going to get his. life back. It was an exploration of lots of themes. that I was interested in creatively, but. what people don't know is that that that. basically really happened to me. It was 2015, and I just started filming Star Wars.

I'd never done studio movie before, never done a big franchise. I never. thought it would that would be my path. I was really happy doing indies like. Nightcrawler and Four Lions. I suddenly got to be in this film set. with stormtroopers and all these big. things. I was like, "Wow. Is this Is it going to happen for me?". One week into filming that, I. started getting this weird pain in my. legs. And I thought, "Okay, maybe I've pulled. something during one of the action. scenes." And I woke up one morning and I. couldn't get out of bed.

And I couldn't walk. Tried to go to a hospital. They were. like, they just kind of like palm me. off. They didn't weren't really sure. what it was. I went to the hospital back in my. parents' neighborhood. It's the same. hospital I was born in when I was. visiting my parents. I said, "Let me go. and check get checked out there." They. immediately saw what was happening and. they were like, "You need to be admitted. to hospital straight away.". And I remember saying, "I can't do that. I'm filming Star Wars right now.". And they said, "You're in a very. dangerous situation right now. I don't. explain to you what's happening, but you.

need to be hospitalized immediately.". And I just felt like, "What's happening. to me? Is my life kind of falling apart. before my eyes?" I ended up spending 2. and 1/2 months in hospital. I was unable to walk. I went down to just under 50 kilos. >> Wow. >> Uh 100 lbs, you know. I couldn't lift my. arms. I couldn't walk. Uh and I Yeah, I. was kind of going to a stroke gym every. day. A weird thing happens when your life. falls apart like that. When you're.

confronted with your complete lack of. control, it's really humbling. You realize if I don't even control my. own body, then maybe everything that I do have is. a gift. I remember being in hospital. Forget going back to to film the rest of. Star Wars. Forget having a career, ever being able. to walk again. I remember that sat there and seeing. like a pigeon sat on the window sill of.

this NHS hospital. And being almost moved to tears with by. its beauty. It sounds maybe sounds crazy, but maybe. you can relate to what I'm saying. Where. you're just like, "Man, I did nothing to. deserve that pigeon coming to visit me.". I get to see up close. Pigeons are. actually. amazing. They're like a little bit green. and red and you're getting to see the. sunlight shine off of it. This thing. that I've taken for granted. I was just absolutely blown away by this. animal, this wild animal.

that was there and I felt this sense of. such humility and and gratitude. And. I've always believed ever since then. it's when you're brought to your knees. that you're halfway towards praying. It brings you closer to the love in the. universe. And I went on a real journey and that's. when I kind of really started meditating. in earnest. I had this kind of crazy. crazy journey where. I had to kind of almost. grieve and let go of my life the way I.

thought it would be. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> And uh it was it was almost like I felt. like God or the universe was saying, "You know, all this stuff that you want. it's like happening for you now, right? Make sure you appreciate it. Don't take it for granted. You know, it was I was being taught. gratitude just before being given the. gift.". My friends are texting me like, "Bro, I've just seen the Star Wars photos, man. Like, you're going to be in Star.

Wars.". I'm in a hospital. desperately trying to get the nurse's. attention cuz I can't get up to go to. the toilet and I don't want to wet the. bed. My life is just it couldn't be more. different. to what people are perceiving it to be. It was something about that experience. made me want to start telling work from. a more personal place. And the reason. for that is that I felt a lot of shame. around it. I felt a deep sense of shame. And you. know, I've never really talked about it. publicly even now, but I. if anyone else going through that right. now, I wanted to I wanted to kind of.

share that and offer that. as a as an experience. because. I I felt this kind of weird shame and I. felt this critical inner voice coming. out that was like, you deserve this. This is where you should be. You don't you belong that pit. No, you. you're getting straight back down. This. this is this is your fate. How dare you. think you could be happy, you have the. things you want. And all this shame and. all this kind of like this really. venomous voice was coming out.

And I was like, actually this is the. thing that's killing me. The only way to. heal myself of that voice. is by owning it. Is owning my. experience. Losing my the shame around. my experience. Losing my shame around. who I am. That's what Mogul Mogely's. about. That's what Bait is about. Because I I believe you know, what what. happened to me was a kind of autoimmune. condition. Right? An autoimmune condition is when. the body attacks itself. And I know. we're both big fans of that book, The.

Body Keeps the Score. You know, it was. my belief that I was at war with myself. That my critical inner voice was so. out of control. That I was always attacking myself, beating myself over the sticks so much. that in a way my body had turned on. itself. I mean, I told this story. jokingly before um about one of my. tellys, which is. a 2 years after I'd finished filming The. Night Of, I'd still get up in the middle. of the night, go to the bathroom and start running.

scenes again. This is The Night Show has come out. I. won an Emmy for this role. It's done. Like, I should have moved on. with my life. But still in the back of. my head it's like, not good enough. You're not good enough. This is. embarrassing. How. You think that was good? Get back up. there. Do it again. >> Wow. I had this voice in me and my it's. my belief that that critical inner voice. led me to that hospital bed and I had to. look it in the eye. and say, "No more shame, man.

No more shame. I'm going to own this. I'm going to create work from this." And. that's what Sound of Metal was. That's. where Mogwli was, coming from that. direct experience. And the universe. brought me Sound of Metal, which was. also about an artist going through a. health crisis. And it was like, "No, you're not done with it. You will go. back there. You got to make work from this place.". Yeah, man. I I I have long, deep history. with this critical voice and this shame. And I really think it can kill you, man. It's not something that I've I'm done. with. Um but I think that critical inner voice.

just He's not the guy on the megaphone, but he's a guy who's always going to be. at the party. He's may If I'm lucky, he's at the. corner of the party. As hard as it may. be, talk to me about. the lowest moment, the worst day of. going through that time in hospital. because. those are the moments that. we all. have experienced rock bottom. But those are the moments you never hear. people talk about because. they're scary. >> Yeah. >> And and I feel like when I'm hearing you. talk about that, I'm like, it sounds.

like you were dealing with a lot. For. something mental to become physically. that debilitating. when you're a fit young man, healthy man. in general, like that means there was. there was a real war within yourself, as. you rightly said it. Talk to me as much as you can about. that. >> I was alone at night in the hospital. And um they were pumping me full of a. lot of steroids intravenously. And. steroids keep you up, right? And I.

couldn't sleep. And I just felt. completely alone. Whatever was going on. with me, it was resistant to treatment. So, I got a tiny bit better, and then it. went it was going south. And it started sensing that maybe there. was some it might be affecting my heart. And it might be affecting my ability to. breathe and it was certainly was. affecting my ability to swallow. I remember this because the people onset. of Star Wars, God bless them, they.

carried on sending me food. to the hospital. And I was having trouble swallowing it. and um. I was like, am I going to make my way. out of this? Am I going to die here? Hm. Is what I started [clears throat]. asking myself. And I started talking to. God. And I remember that rock bottom moment. again like I said, when you're brought. to your knees that's when you're halfway. to praying. It was that moment of. total helplessness. that I started talking to God and I.

said, "If you please give me a chance, if you. please let me live, I promise you as much as I can, I will I will I will give. I want to give. And what I meant by that. was when I said like I I just feel I. haven't emptied myself yet. You know, I've got more to give.". And I remember just pleading with God. and just the tears just streaming down. my face and just saying,

"Yeah, if you if if you if you just let. me live, if you let me get through this, I I promise you I will I will empty. myself. and try and give. from whatever you've given me.". And um. it was incredibly scary and uh the next. morning I remember they said. they said that they might have to start. a really intensive kind of chemo on me. God, right? I mean, that's like is a.

harrowing time like in your life. Like. that's like just. when I when I hear about it cuz I I. not not it wasn't life threatening but. my version of the mental turning into. physical was. I developed while I was a monk I. developed polyps in my throat. And so these get on your vocal cords and. people generally get it from like. vocal exhaustion or lack of vocal rest. or. some sort of vocal disruption and I. think for us in the ministry it was. mantra it was chanting it was you know.

and and I do not have a singing voice. for whatever it's worth but I think my. my vocal range is pretty limited and I. was probably straining it. I don't even. know how it happened and that's that's. the physical version but we all know. there's what from what we're talking. about there's so much more to it whether. it's a lack of expression a lack lack of. authentic communication of where you're. at. And I remember having to get them. lasered off my throat and so I went into. surgery got them lasered off. It's it's. it's pretty like you know you don't feel. it you're sedated it's not like I said. it's not life threatening but like for.

months after you're drinking from a. straw cuz you can't eat. >> What kind of food? Okay. >> And you can't talk so I have a white. board and I remember moving in back with. my parents at the time because I. couldn't be in the ministry and I'd. literally write to my mom like what I. could eat water whatever it was and I'm. literally carrying a white board around. my neck basically and just writing stuff. to my family cuz I can't say anything. And at that time I'm like I give. speeches at um colleges I give talks at. the temple and I'm I'm like speaking is.

my thing like that's what I do. >> Of course. >> And it's all gone. >> Of course. >> disappeared and like I can't even say. anything. Like I'm I'm I'm writing words. on a white board and I remember feeling. very similarly to what you're saying. about seeing that pigeon praying to God. like I I can I can relate to it and. again like mine was not life threatening. it wasn't you know there's a difference. between not speaking and not walking. >> No but it's profound because it's your. your gift turns to your curse. >> 100%. >> like the thing that you are blessed with.

which is this ability to communicate and. this desire, this purpose you have, that. is. the thing that's taken from you. >> Correct. >> And so, how has that affected the way. that you I mean, did that just make you. even more motivated to speak and to. choose your words and think about your. words? >> Yeah, I had to go to a vocal coach to. train and all of that kind of stuff and. they said that you would get your, you. know, your natural voice would come. back. It came back softer. I'd lost the. raspiness and the depth of my voice, so. I sounded different. Now I Now I sound.

back to normal, if anything, maybe it's. a bit better now, so I'm going to take. it. But like, at the time it was like I. was like, "God, I'm going to have to. learn how to talk again." Like that's. how it felt. And what it did for me was a few things. I remember talking to one spiritual. guide at the time. and I said to him, I said, "I can't. speak to God out loud anymore. Like I. can't hear myself talk to God. I can't. chant. I can't mantra, such a big part. of Eastern tradition. I can't I can't. chant out loud and you're meant to chant. out loud so you can hear the spiritual.

sacred sound. Like that's our practice.". And he goes to me, he goes, "God's. teaching you to chant with your heart.". Like and I was like, "God, like that. that that time I just remember that like. hit me." It was like he was like, "Yeah, you think Well, you think you talk to. God out loud? Like you think that's what. God listens to?" He was like, "God's. listening to this. Like God knows what's. going on in here. It's got nothing to do. with sound and voice." And I was like, "Wow, that's That's huge to learn to. talk to God with my heart." Like what. what does that even mean?

>> Yes. >> And then at the same time it's what you. said, where it was like, "Okay, now that. my voice is starting to come back, how am I going to respect. the fact that I have a voice? Like to. and, you know, to not take it for. granted, to be like, "How can you feel that this ease with. which we're talking right now and we're. communicating and I I can hear you, you. can hear me." When that goes away, God, life feels colorless and, you know, it. loses so much value. And so, again, and, you know, I we were talking. about this offline as well. Like when. you.

of course you forget all this. You start. taking all the gifts for granted again. You probably have to in a way to try and. kind of move through the trauma. But I. don't know if you have moments where you. remember that and you just sink into. that deep sense of humility and. gratitude. And humility is the word. I. mean, you're taking me back there. actually. I don't think I've actually. thought about this. I don't even I don't. think I've talked about it publicly to. be honest myself. I I don't I can't. remember if I've actually talked about. it. And I'm being reminded of your expe-. like your your experience triggering me. going. yeah, like that, you know. That was.

intense. That was intense. And and I. don't That's traumatic. Yeah, it was. traumatic. But all of that to say with. all of yours, talk to me about. where does the shame come from going. through something like that and then not. wanting to share it? Because I think there's the pain of. going through something traumatic. And there's then there's the pain of. communicating it to a group of people. who may or may not actually understand. what the hell you just went through. Yeah. But talk to me about where was the. shame for you in wanting to share that.

and what kept it in for so long? >> I I will, but can I first tell you. something about your voice? Um I love your voice. >> [laughter]. >> Uh but here's the thing. When I. sometimes I'm walking down the street, it doesn't happen to me a lot, but it. happens to me enough times I want to. mention it. Sometimes people stop me and they say, say I'm on the phone or whatever, they've heard me talking, they go, "Sorry, can I just tell you. you sound exactly like Jay Shetty.". >> That is hilarious. I'll take that as a. compliment. >> I'll take it as a compliment, bro. You'd. make an amazing MC.

>> [laughter]. >> I think you got a great you got a great. voice for that. That would be the album. Come on, man. You know. So, I just want. to going to give your voice its flowers. Um yeah, the shame, you know, I think. the. the show is about this idea of wanting. to be James Bond. >> Mhm. >> I wanted that. I mean, who who doesn't? Or if not. exactly that, a version of that. Then what I mean by that is like you. want to aspire to. this archetype of of heroism. >> Mhm.

>> And that is about being this kind of. invulnerable, powerful, alpha male, whatever that means. Although. hilariously, I mean, the alpha male in a. wolf pack is the animal that lets the. kids beat it up the most, you know? And. it's like the most chill and the least. aggressive, right? But we have these. ideas in our culture and I guess I. didn't want to I already felt like I. don't fit the mold. You know, for all the reasons we've. already discussed and we experienced. growing up. I don't want another strike against me.

of people somehow thinking I'm weak. >> Mhm. >> You know, or I'm fragile or I. Whereas now I look at it as like why. actually I feel like I showed a lot of. resources and strength and grit and. mental and physical, you know, teaching. yourself to walk again or lift your arms. or whatever. That that takes strength. and I can say that now. At the time I. just saw the glass half empty of it and. I thought. I don't want anyone to think. that I'm weak, that I'm broken, that I'm. not up to up to the mark. >> Yeah, yeah,

yeah. >> And in a way I actually think that. there's some truth in that that I think. the culture has shifted a little bit. more. >> Mhm. >> You know, I think we do because of. spaces like this, man, that you've. created and other people have created. where we. can talk and celebrate our. vulnerabilities a bit more. You know, I mean it's talking about this. right now, my body right now is kind of. like going. >> Oh, [snorts] god, yeah. >> Did I just say all this? Did I do all. this? But I also feel a bit lighter. It's that thing of digging inside, like. I said, and it's an offering, you know?

If there's someone going through. something like this that's watching this. if it normalizes their experience, if it. makes them feel less alone, then that's. beautiful, you know? And I I don't want. to share that. I I think it was that, really. I think. it was kind of my. again, it was the distance between that. public and private self and I felt that. if my public self. gets too close to my reality. it will fall apart again. >> Yeah, well said. Yeah, I know I I really.

believe you sharing that especially. talking about perception in that. externally everyone can be like, "Oh, you're winning. Your career's been. amazing. You won Emmys and Oscar nomi-. you know, all this stuff." And it's like. to actually go, "Oh, wait a minute. Even. him like there's there's stuff he's. going through. Not only is affecting. mentally, physically, and that mental. physical connection that I want people. to make here which I know you do, too, which is this idea that. a lot of what we're going through. physically is coming from some sort of. emotional block, mental block. And in.

Bait you visualize that as this severed. pig's head. which which is this Patrick Stewart. voice. severed pig's head. So, yes, the. critical inner voice in Bait is a. severed pig's head. It was sent to the. family as a racist attack. And it's. about I guess how we can internalize. the criticism of us, internalize the. prejudice. So, it starts to become. almost like his best friend. Like and. for me for a long time. my critical inner voice was something I. didn't want to lose. I was worried that if I.

make peace with it or turn the volume. down on that too much, I'll get lazy, I'll get complacent. I remember even. when when we won an Oscar for our short. film, it's so funny. It was almost like. the Oscar was looking at me going, "You ain't shit." The kind of elation. lasted as long as me going there, collecting it, going backstage, going to. the toilet, coming back, and sitting. down again. By the time I sat down, in. fact, I would say my critical inner. voice was at an all-time high when I was.

sat there holding that Oscar in my hand. cuz it was almost like a survival. mechanism. My brain was going or that. voice that part of my brain was going, "Don't put your feet up now. Don't think you can get complacent. Don't kick back. I have programmed you to strive, not to. savor. And so, you now we're going to really. crack the whip. It's just It was just going crazy. I. remember sitting there in that seat. having the most aggressively critical. thoughts to myself. It was It was like.

out of control. But, in the show, it's played by Sir. Patrick Stewart. I want you to know. there was a moment. long moment where I was like, it has to. be Jay Shetty. We ended up getting Sir Patrick Stewart. So, you lost the role to someone who's I. thought it has to be a really kind of. super established actor, one of the. greats, so it makes sure my character. feel insecure. >> [laughter]. >> Actually, what if you were my evil twin? I mean, there's not a.

slight resemblance, maybe. I'm. I was like, yeah, what if it should be. Jay? Jay should be my critical inner. voice. >> That would be hilarious. That would have. been so funny. But, you know, Pat- Sir. Patrick Stewart was was the right. choice. >> It It was one of those moments in the in. the show where you're like, what? Like, it's such a surprise. >> Right, right, yeah. >> Talk to me about that, because I think. what you just identified is the high. performers' and overachievers' curse. Where. the inner critic is what drives you to. extraordinary success.

>> Do you think? >> Usually, right? >> Usually, from everyone I've interviewed, whether it's basketball players, whether. it's tennis players, whether it's F1. drivers, they all say the same. >> thing, basically. >> The athletes who I think are playing at. the levels where every inch counts and. every minute matters, they all have this crazy inner critic, which they have to learn what to do with. it, because. in the moment, they have to believe that. this point is the only thing that. matters. And then, as soon as they win.

or lose the point, they have to believe. that point doesn't matter at all. >> Wow. >> Because that's the switch. They're So, the their code switch or that and that's. is that is like when I'm playing this. point, this is the most important point. in the world and then as soon as the. point's over, whether I win or lost the. point, that point's irrelevant. >> So, you need the inner critic and the. inner cheerleader. >> Totally. You've got And you've got to. basically be able to toggle between them. both. Yeah, it's it's just you don't. want to believe that it the inner critic. is the jet fuel. I want to believe that. it's like one of the engines, right? But, there's got to be that other engine. because, you know, I also feel that yes,

I feel like the inner critic or that. fear of failure. the possibility of shame, all these. things can drive us. But, I think it can also make us quite. tense. And I think our best performances come. when we're in a state of flow. And that. is about, like you were saying, too. tight, too loose. That is also about. being kind of loose. That's about a joy. It's about openness and receptivity and. play and curiosity. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All those things that the critic does. not really give us.

And so, yeah, for me it's like on that. mixing desk of the voices in my head. You don't want to hear the voices in my. head, Jay. There's a lot of them. You're. one of them. But, I'm [laughter] trying. to just find that right balance and find. a right moment to bring up that. cheerleader versus the critic. >> I'm glad you said that because I I would. agree with you and I would encourage. people to go there, especially if you're. a high achiever, a high performer, or. even if you you have goals and you think. the only way to get there is to make. yourself feel bad and beat yourself up.

And to actually go, "Well, that isn't the way I want to get there. There is a way of getting there that. isn't that. That just seems to be the. most common way that a lot of successful. people have got there, but then they. didn't like where they got either.". >> I think it can get you to a place, but. then it will kill you. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. >> You know, people would whip horses to. like make them run faster. Yeah. You're. going to kill that horse at some point, man. You're going to really hurt it. >> exhausted. Yeah. That's a great visual. >> I'm trying to find a way of something. else kind of taking over. And honestly,

I I of feel like what you were talking. about before with. kids, that's been a great teacher for me. >> Mhm. >> You know, play. >> Mhm. >> Just on a really basic level. >> Yeah. >> Play. The joy of that, the curiosity of. it. Actually not being in control. >> Mhm. >> That's been a a great teacher for me. Not least because actually I think kids. you can you can't control them really. I mean, they humble you every day, right? They. They They They They kind of you know is.

that thing where you don't raise your. kids, they raise you. >> Yeah. >> So, I don't know. I I think that that's. kind of something I'm trying to pass the. baton from the critic to the to the. child or or to the child. >> Yeah, to the child. I like that. Yeah, there's this. there's this beautiful quote from George. Bernard Shaw that I love where he said, "We don't. stop playing because we get old, we get. old because we stop playing.". >> Oof. >> And I love that. Like it just it's so. good cuz I'm like, yeah, like that's why. we feel old is because we stop playing, we stop being curious, we stop marveling.

at the greatness of a Velcro shoe, that. simplicity. And that's why time I was I. was looking into it actually because. that's why as we get older, I'm sure you. feel this way too, time just flies. Every adult I talk to they're like, yeah, god, time's just going faster. >> that is. a proven fact that that our brains. subjectively experience time differently. as we get older. >> Yes. >> So, in terms of subjectively. the spread of our life, um and how it feels to our brains is 50%.

of our life is lived between the age of. 0 and 8 years old. Which is crazy. That's like half of it. Cuz of how a day feels when you're a. little kid, how expansive and huge it. can feel. And how quick a year can feel towards. the tail end. So, yeah. As you're starting to feel more and more. conscious of time and its passage, like. what is that doing for you? Is that just. mean streamlining and. focusing on the things you really want. to or. that how are. managing with that? >> At one point in my life, I listened to.

Steve Jobs' Stanford commencement speech. every day for 9 months. >> Wow. >> In my opinion, it's the best speech ever. given because he also knew he was going. to die. So, I feel like when someone. knows they're going to die, >> Is that death awareness meditation, right? It's a big part of the kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> When I stick tradition and Eastern. philosophy. >> Yeah, absolutely. And it's like. every word mattered. Like he didn't That wasn't performance. If you If you see him do it, he also. just reads it like deadpan. Like there's. no performance, there's no emphasis, there's no poet Like he's not trying to.

say truth. >> Yeah, cuz he knows he's going to die. So, it's like there's a So, I listened. to that and. there's a line in it that just goes like. something like and I'll butcher it so. people should listen to the real thing, but he he literally says something like. every few days. if. I I check in with myself and I ask. myself I look in the mirror like am I. doing what I want to do if this was my. last day? And if after three or four days the. answer is then this is what I should be. doing, then I know I've got something to. change. And I'm like. I don't think we can all live like that.

all the time. I think I think there's, you know, people have responsibilities. and pressures and whatever. But I think. there's truth to the idea of. did you call the person that you would. call if it was your last day? Did you. talk to your partner in the way you. would if it was the last time you were. going to talk to them? Did you look at. your kid before you went out to work in. a way that you would want them to know. was how much you loved them? Like I. think all those things do matter. That applies even if you've got to go to. a job every day and you've got to say. hello to people. It's like did you. behave with everyone in the way that you. want to be remembered? I think.

that is important to me and I think it's. streamlining, I think it's focusing, I. think it's all those things, but really. it's more about it's less about what I. do and it's more about who I am in in. that what is the spirit of my being. I've noticed versions of that where like. in order to become successful, I've had. to be more technical, I've had to be. more strategic, I've had to be more. organized, I've had to be What What are. the words are? And then I go, "I'm just. a guy who loves the heart." Like I'm. That's who I am at the core of like I'm. just a guy who just wants to like love.

and be loved. Like that's who I am at my. essence. And who are the people who can. take me back to that. in this crazy world where I have to be. all these other versions of myself in. order to do the thing? People always say like what's your. favorite place? And I'm like, "I'm never looking for my. favorite place. I'm looking for my. favorite people.". Because as long as I'm with my favorite. people, it doesn't matter where I am. And so. I'm looking for people actively always. that keep taking me back to that place.

within my heart and can do it quicker, more beautifully, more gracefully, more. elegantly. And I find I'm. Some of them are old friends that I've. had for 20, 25 years. And some of them are new people I just. met last year. >> People who can make you more yourself. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> People who can make you forget yourself. >> Yeah. People who go beyond the avatar. The avatar. Like the person who's not. getting you to play up to your avatar or. your, you know, what And so I'm looking. I'm always looking to get Not collectors. in this I don't need a million of those. people. But you got to find a few people.

that you just drop in. Your nervous. system calms down. You know, the active mind switches off. >> So important. Yeah, so important. It's. interesting you say that because like, you know, we're in LA right now. And I. had a very kind of like. you're making me think about this. because I I had this narrative where it. was like, "I don't like LA." And you. actually making me think about this is. like there are periods of time when I've. adored LA. >> Mhm. >> And the thing that was surprising to me. now is just before coming here I was. like, "Oh, I got to go to LA, man.". Being from London like like walking and.

you know, and I don't like driving and. everything's spread out. And I was like, "You don't see anyone." And all these. kind of clichéd criticisms, right? And yet. I woke up today in LA. absolutely loving it cuz. um with my wife, with my kid. I'm with family you know, families have. come to visit the house is full. and it's suddenly like. being back as a kid surrounded by. clapping aunties or whatever, you know. what I mean? It was just it just feels.

like that environment. Um, it feels like. home. And absolutely it's the people, man. It's the people that made the place. 100% and and yeah, I was kind of. confronted with that realization this. morning. I was like, oh yeah, I've just. slipped into this kind of lazy. narrative. It's like. it's not what it's about. >> Yeah, and and and the time piece too. that you brought up that I think is a. really valuable thing is like how much. can I not try and fill time? And how much can I not try and be. distracted? >> it hard like kind of doing nothing. >> Yeah. >> Something that is starting to help is.

reading. >> Mhm. >> I'm very poorly read. >> No, I don't believe that. Really? >> No, I. >> you know. >> up a lot of things in like um, I listen to a lot of music, I listen to. podcasts, I watch talks, I post talks, I. talk to people. Um, but I had like growing up crazy. ADHD. And I'd get into a lot of trouble at. school. Now I look back I'm like, oh of. course that's what that was. And uh, you. know, there's loads of different ways in. which that manifests. So sitting down to.

read a book was like torture. >> Mhm. >> It was historically again the narrative, oh I don't read it read I can't read. Recently particularly being married to a. novelist that was like this is a bit of. a deal breaker. You need to be reading. book. You Please read my book. I was. like, okay, I've got to sit down and do. this. That is the thing that is allowing me to. like sit and kind of. do nothing again it's forgetting myself. >> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? >> Mhm. >> But I otherwise struggle with it. I can. very easily fill time, create a new. idea, now let's progress it. What if we.

do that? What if we And I'm sure I don't. know. How do you manage that? Is that. something that you're also. navigate. >> set rules around it because I'm like. that as well. I feel like I'm a creative. brain. I like I like building stuff. I. like playing with stuff, but I had to. start just building real. parameters around that where And what do. you mean like as in you don't work after. 6:00 p.m.? >> literally like yeah, it's like I won't. think about work or be on my phone after. 6:00 p.m. because to me that rest and. renewal is where the best ideas come. out. Talking about flow state, I can't.

invent flow. I can't engineer it. I. can't manufacture it. And so for it to. exist, I need to be in this lucid state. where. Riz said something. that randomly allowed for me to be. inspired at 8:00 p.m. and it came up and. that's fine, but I don't need to act on. it immediately. I just need to let it. breathe and let it sit. >> Letting it sit, best ideas come on the. toilet, see, bro? >> [laughter]. >> In the shower. >> In the shower. >> Actually, we stopped taking our phones. to the toilets. The toilet's now not the. creative Mecca it used to be, but the. shower, man. [laughter].

The shower is always where you go. >> Yeah, and actually just to give Elliot's. flowers, driving has been great for me. in that sense. We just going on these. long drives and. you allowed the thing to bubble up. David Lynch used to talk about the fish, right? These fish that would just swim. to the surface sometimes. If you could. just allow the water to be still enough. >> Riz, I want to do a set of questions for. you that we've got that speak about. everything we've been talking about, but. we're going to do them as not. rapid-fire, but we're going to do them. as. quicker fire. >> Yeah, quicker fire. Yeah, not long.

rambling fire. >> No, no, no. You can give longer answers, but I I want to kind of get some out. from you. So, what's the hardest mask. you've had to take off? >> I think it was probably around. my health. Yeah. You know, kind of letting people into. that. Even when it was happening, I was. trying to keep people at distance. I. didn't want people to see me like that. >> Yeah. >> Particularly if I thought I was like, if. I might die, then I don't want people to. remember me like this, almost, you know? So, I I think it was that. I think it. was when I was at my most vulnerable,

letting people in on what was happening. and starting to slowly share that. >> What part of you still feels like it. doesn't belong? >> Different parts of me in every place. that I go to. >> That's interesting, yeah. >> And I think a lot of people feel like. that, a lot of creative people feel like. that. I've learned to embrace that. actually. I actually feel like having. that slight outsider's perspective is. kind of fun. >> Yeah. >> It allows me to like enjoy things at a. distance as well. But yeah, I mean all the time. I mean. Ah. [sighs]. You know, I remember.

going to meet the Queen and accidentally. trying to fist bump her. >> That's so good. >> It was like a British film industry. reception. Everyone lines up. She put. her hand out like this. From the angle. that I was at, I thought she was going. like this. I went like this. The. security went like this. >> [laughter]. >> And I ended up just going like this. You. know, it was super weird. >> Uh yeah, a ring. >> So, um I don't know, man. Like there's. There's all these kind of moments of. feeling like a fish out of water that. Now I actually kind of like I quite. enjoy being like, "Where am I? What is.

this?" You know, something you can laugh. about later. >> Yeah, yeah. It's a better story, too. >> I think so. Yeah, if you felt totally. comfortable everywhere you went, then. you're probably not in the right place. David Bowie says this thing of is when. you can't feel the bottom of the. swimming pool is you know you're in the. right place. You know, you're slightly. out of your depth working out. >> That's beautiful. I love that. That's. That's one of the reasons why I've I. actually like living in LA cuz I'm. reminded of my insignificance daily. >> Cuz it's so big. >> Cuz it's so big and I go to an event and. I'm the least important person in the. room. And I love it because.

the only conversation I'll have is a. really meaningful one. Because the only. person who's aware of me is someone. who's connected to the kind of work I. do. >> Wow. >> And then that allows me to. bask in the glory of the rarity of that. human in the interaction we just had. So, I try to belong to one person than. belong to a room or a place or a space. because belonging to one person is kind. of what we're looking for anyway. It's. like when you meet one person and you go. Oh god, we're even like we you know, we're from the same area. Like you know, we know the same people. Like that to me.

in a busy, big room is like pure joy. >> Mhm. >> That I know even the person winning an. award on stage, as you've rightly just. said, isn't even feeling. >> Yeah. >> And so, it's not being celebrated that. make gives us joy. It's not belonging to. a whole room that gives us joy. It's. just one person that looks at you and. you go, "We're from the same place. We. believe in the same things. We care. about whatever whatever that may be." Or. I had a really good debate with someone. that engaged me in a really curious way. and we don't agree. >> It can be so overwhelming in those.

rooms, can't it? Where like you're. chatting to people and you feel that. everyone's like looking over their. shoulder to see if there's someone else. to talk to and it's like pinball. It's. like social pinball. But finding a. center in those rooms, finding a kind of. a rooted place to drop into. Yeah, that's the way to do it. >> Yeah, I always I always say to God, I'm. like, "I just want to meet the one. person you want me to meet today.". >> Mhm. >> And and that's how I walk into a room. >> I love it. >> And I always meet that person and it's. always like becomes a friendship or we. had a great conversation and we don't. talk ever again or it's just like,

"Yeah, God, like I'm here for you. So, you just introduce me to the one person. you want to introduce me to.". And it Yeah, that that kind of carries. me. So, this one's a good one. So, uh. when was the last time you tried to. people please? >> This is going to sound like a small. thing, but clothes matter to me a lot. >> Me too, man. >> [laughter]. >> I grew up in the Wembley market where. they sold all the fake designer clothes. >> Yeah. >> So, it was all about that. We'd go and. buy some and we'd sell them and then. we'd go, you know, and try and buy some. real ones and I don't know, we were just. kind of obsessed with it, you know?

As teenagers trying to wear the mask or. having the costume or find worth, whatever it is. Now I see it more as a. kind of expression of myself. And recently, I was going to do a talk. show or something and I said, "I shouldn't wear that outfit. That's. too me in a weird way.". >> Wow. >> like, "That's I need to meet the. audience where they're at.". >> Yeah. >> Maybe they haven't seen a show like this. or have related to someone like me from. my background. I'm doing something maybe. target like, you know, this middle.

America or something and I and I was I. tried to dilute down. what I would wear and who I would be. >> Mhm. >> And luckily when I was was wearing the. thing I was like, "Who the hell is this? What am I What am. I doing?" [laughter]. And I took it off by remember and and I. remember actually in that moment being. quite surprised. I was like, "Oh, that's. still really That's still still a really. strong instinct in me.". >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> To do that, to edit and censor myself in. that way. Sounds like a small thing, but. do you think though you only get away. with being able to make that choice when. you're successful? I think chicken and.

egg. I think the people who become the. most successful are the people who are. most unapologetically themselves. >> I love that. >> Well, great answer. Yeah. >> Because the specificity and the honesty. and the authenticity is what people are. attracted to. It just feels real, you. know? >> That's the narrative again we tell. ourselves. Oh, when I'm when I'm successful then. I'll be myself. >> When people accept me I'll be me. >> Well, if you be you then people will. accept you. >> Yeah, yeah. So well said, man. So well. said. >> I feel like before we go to the final. five which is our rapid fire I feel like.

we have to give a bunch of shout-outs to. places in North and Northwest London. that we grew up around cuz we got to go. niche. We were talking about this. before. We were like, "We could have. done a whole interview about North. Northwest London and no one else would. have got us apart from our hometown. which we love.". >> is for the 15 people. >> [laughter]. >> that know exactly what we're talking. about. I'm going to start with the one I. said to you earlier, Kebabish. >> Kebabish. >> On Ealing Road. >> Yeah. >> Kebabish is literally a place that I. shout out on my last rap song. >> Do you know what? When I said that to. you earlier, I didn't even know that.

>> did a track called We Good with Cassis. It's on the Bait soundtrack actually. >> Yeah. >> I name-checked Kebabish specifically and. the amount of people from my past who. reached out and texted me like, "Bro, Kebabish. You remember those days when. we used to go Kebabish? The garlic mayo. My mouth is watering as I'm talking. It's actually the naan. It's the. freshness of the naan. Shout-out. Kebabish at Ealing Road." Okay, yeah, that's a good one. What about Will you. say St. Ann's or St. George's? These are. two shopping malls in Harrow in. Northwest London, right?

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whichever one the girl. I was dating wanted to go to. So, it was like I was I was flexible. Yeah, I was like whichever. >> All right, so that's a good one. I was actually saying as again to shout. out this area in London, so Northwest. London, we have all the best J's. >> [laughter]. >> We have Jay Sean, Jay Paul, and Jay Sean. And this is the holy trinity, man. It's. the holy brown trinity. >> That's hilarious. >> And then we have Riz Ahmed Patel. Yes, we're also there holding down the fort, Rayners Lane, Sudbury Town. So, but it's.

interesting. It's this kind of little. pocket corner of the world that's this. super multicultural, you know, because. of that I think it's like a real. creative hotbed and you get some. interesting stuff happening there. >> Yeah, Anthony Joshua from Watford. >> Exactly, he's from Watford. AJ. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. Sitting down with you is like. it is sitting down with an old friend. Like it feels that way because. >> the schools you went to, the people you. grew up around, friends and family. But. Riz, you've been amazing to talk to you. today. Honestly, this is. >> an absolute honor to be talking to you. >> uh it's been beyond my expectations to.

get your openness, your honesty, your. vulnerability. The The show Bait is a. winner already. Can't wait for more. people to watch it. I can't wait for. you. I mean, I know you've got Digger. coming out this year. You've got, you. know, Hamlet that's out already. Like. it's. I feel like, you know, just keeps. becoming more and more your year for. actually putting out real expression and. >> brother. I appreciate I'm trying to see. the TV. There we go. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate you. >> But Riz, we end every interview the. final five. These questions have to be. answered in one sentence maximum. >> Oh god, here we go. >> So, Riz, these are your final five.

brought to you by State Farm. The first. question is, what is the best advice. you've ever heard or received? >> Idris Elba once said to me, "Categorize. yourself not.". >> Explain. >> I'd hit a glass ceiling in my career in. the UK. He was like, "You should go to. America." I'm like, "Bro, what are they. going to do with a guy like me over. there? You're going to do nothing. I'm this, they don't have that. They have that, I'm not this." And he. went, "Categorize yourself, not, my. friend." And actually, when you do that, you're doing other people's work for.

them. It's about the limitations people. place on you, how we internalize them, and then we perpetuate that narrative. And go, "Well, I'm this, this is my. lane. I'm this flavor." There's so many. different sides to who you are. I told him that recently, and he was. like I was like, "Don't you remember. that conversation?" He was like, "Nah, no memory of that." I was like I was. like, "Great, thanks a lot, bro." Um but. it's those throwaway moments, right? When people kind of like see you. differently to how you used to be seen. >> Did you feel that? Like, was that hard? I know the representation conversations. over played. I know those conversations.

have happened of just like, you know, making it as a brown man in Hollywood, you've you've done that. But what is the. reality of that? Because. we say that, and then you're like, "Well, wait a minute, actually, no, I. haven't done that." Because. >> I think that there's a reality that for. women, for people of color, for people. who are differently abled, there is a. lot more resistance. I definitely do. feel like sometimes I have to work, you. know, twice as hard to get half as far. But I'm also kind of starting to feel.

like that is. gives my journey more meaning. >> Mhm. >> To me, but I know for a fact also for. many others, you know? >> Yeah, yeah. >> And that actually, I think more and more. friction is what gives life its meaning. You know, you order a meal on Deliveroo, it does not taste the same as you've. taken that time to cook that for. yourself. Shout out Deliveroo. I'm not saying. [laughter] that. uh I don't do that, but I'm just kind of. like I I I just feel like it's what's. given my journey its its meaning for for.

me, and I know for others. So, I. wouldn't I wouldn't change it. I think. for a long time I'd say, "I wish I could. swap that out. Wish I could make that. different." But I don't feel that way. anymore. >> What advice would you give to someone. who is a person of color, differently. abled, who. is a woman, a gender that may have any. of these experiences, what would you say to them? Because I. think the bitterness, the pain, the. rejection. >> is real, yeah. >> It's real, it's justified, it's not. imagined. I don't want to gaslight. anyone who's going through that. It's.

hard. I would say, you know, my. experience is like the gift and the. curse are usually the same thing. >> Mhm. >> You losing your voice has made you so. conscious of what you're communicating. and how and the words you're choosing. There's so many examples I can think of. in in my own journey where the thing. that I thought was blocking me, if I. just lean into it, it could unlock. something. And I would say to all of. those people, the thing about you that's. different. is an obstacle.

in certain ways, but it's also the key. >> Mhm. >> And I would say lean into the. specificity of your experience of who. you are. You know, I went to Oxford University. and felt very out of place there on many. different levels. And. my experience there taught me something, which is that actually, cuz I was. thinking about quitting after the first. month. I was like, what the hell am I. doing here? Kind of had a mental health kind of. breakdown almost over there and felt. super depressed, super kind of like an. alien. But I kind of feel like now the. place where you stick out, if you can,

if you can find a support, if it doesn't. hurt you, the place that you stick out. is a place where you should kind of. stick it out. You have an opportunity of. changing the temperature in that room. Of bringing other people into that room. >> I love that, man. Yeah, it reminds me of. the stoic statement of the obstacle is. the way. >> Oh, wow. >> That idea of like the obstacle is the. way. There There is no other way. And so. that obstacle, whether it's how you're. set up or your background or your. uniqueness or. >> Yeah. All right, question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever.

heard or received? >> It was one of the first casting. directors I ever met said, um hey, Hey, to meet you. He was, um. just be careful about your eyes. You can. look like a bit of a psychopath. sometimes. Cuz I do this, [laughter] I get excited. and I start going like this. I just want to want to watch this. interview back going, I did it there, I. did it there. I sometimes say to my wife, I go, "Am I. doing the crazy eyes?" She goes, "Stop. think don't think about the crazy eyes, okay?" But it just made me very. self-conscious. And actually weirdly I remember for a. couple of years after that. I was acting like this in everything. Go. and watch some of my stuff from like the.

early odds, bro. I'm like. That's brilliant. I have big eyes. I can be I get. animated. It's stuff got to you know, learn to try and lean into that. >> Yeah, yeah, I love that. Question number. three, you mentioned your wife a few. times. What's been the biggest lesson. that you've learned from your wife? >> When I see the path that my wife has. been on. how she's had to fight every step of the. way the dedication, the devotion it's. taken for her to. tell her story with such specificity and.

and reach the world with it. I think I've kind of understood what. devotion means. Devotion to her path. Her creativity is a kind of prayer, is a. kind of devotion. Devotion in seeing how she is with. our child. I think she just operates. from like a deep place, you know? I think the biggest thing she's taught. me that and also you can never buy. enough phone chargers. >> [laughter].

>> She will. take them all and lose them all. >> Yeah. >> You know they say it's the way that you. the first thing about someone that you. find cute ends up being the thing that's. like kill me now. We actually met because she had lost her. phone charger. >> No. >> I was in a cafe in New York. A laptop. charger. I was in a cafe in New York. just writing a script or whatever. She. came in on the phone, laptops only on. the communal table. She sits down. opposite me, pulls out her laptop, starts emptying out her bag looking for. her charger.

It's like chaos and I was like, "Can I. can I help you? Do you want to borrow my. charger?". After 6 years of marriage, bro, that. hasn't changed. >> [laughter]. >> She's still borrowing my charger. Now. I'm trying to hide the charger from her. >> That's always the That first thing. [laughter] that I said to her. >> Was that What Did she know? She was like. Was that. >> No. No. No. I might have thought that. maybe for a minute. Now that I know her, I just know. >> No. >> It's like a vortex of chargers. No, but. look, I'm I'm I'm just kind of. trying to downplay it and joke around, but I think, you know, what my wife has. taught me um so much, but the word that.

comes to my mind is devotion, devotion. to a purpose, to a journey. Um. Yeah, to your path. >> I love that, man. Beautiful answer. Uh. Question number four, what do you pray. to God for today? >> I went to Mecca recently, and. >> [clears throat]. >> you do this thing where you kind of try. and pray for everyone you know by name. And I started realizing that everything. ends up kind of cohering around like. three basic ideas. I pray for people's. health. I pray.

for people's ability to provide. >> Mhm. >> um for themselves and their loved ones. uh in a way that. allows them to have dignity and feel. good about it. And the third thing that I always pray. for everyone is is for them to. be brought closer to their purpose. >> Mhm. >> I always say, "God, bring me close to my. purpose.". Cuz that's a way of bringing me closer. to myself as you intended.

>> Mhm. >> And also closer to you, your purpose. I. think your path is something that is. extremely personal, but also divine. >> Mhm. >> And so, alignment to our path, to our. purpose, there's this phrase in Islam. that said "al sirat al mustaqim", which. is the straight path. Right? You people interpret that in. different ways, but for me, it's about. finding your path, the path that's. intended for you. So, yeah, man, your. health, your uh rozi roti, your ability to. provide, and your path.

>> I love that. Have you been to Mecca. before? Was that your first time? >> No, I went once when I was 15, but I it. was a different experience. Um I went. older and actually you know from a more. spiritually skeptical place, you know, how life throws you around and you kind. of ask questions and we went this. December and both me and my wife were. went with openness and I would say, you. know, we are Muslim and um we have. spirituality in our lives, but we also. feel often that organized religion and. the way that it's used. it's.

definitely. put some skepticism into our hearts as. well and and going there was. incredible and I would say. it was actually just a physical act with. of walking around in a circle. with all these people. from all over the world, everyone. dressed the same, everyone's mask kind. of stripped away. There's just such a sense of oneness. there. There it was really kind of. beautiful. And I promised myself I've.

got to try and bottle this feeling, but. of course as soon as you're on that. plane you're like back on your phone, you're. Um but that was it was powerful, yeah. >> It's interesting as you were talking. about that cuz I've been thinking about. this idea a lot about how modern society. has made everything about. upwards and forwards. And actually when. you look at spiritual traditions, everything's circumambulating. >> Beautiful. >> And even in India when you go to a holy. place you you circle it. >> Or in a wedding when you walk around the. fire seven times, right? >> circular. And so when you start looking.

at life that way versus that way, I love. it. It's just a fascinating like mindset. shift of like, oh what if we saw life as. cyclical and not as linear. And. everything we just talked about today. >> I love what you're saying. I think of it. as a spiral. >> A spiral, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, yeah. >> Because you kind of re-tread the same. ground in life, but hopefully from a. more elevated perspective each time. >> I like that. >> You know, um an epiphany kind of works. in that way as well, and those leaps. that you have of understanding I I they.

usually kind of not by going to the by. retracing your steps. >> Yeah. >> And feeling different or wanting. something to feel different. >> I like the ascension aspect that you. just added. That's not just round and. round and round. It's it's straight up. So there is some ascension which is. which is beautiful. Uh fifth and final. question we ask is to every guest who's. ever been on the show. I'm really excited for your answer. actually. You can think about it for as. long as you want. If you could create. one law that everyone in the world had. to follow, what would it be? >> I want to be off my phone more. >> Mhm.

>> But we're all locked in because. everyone's on their phone. I'll put it down if everyone else does. >> [laughter]. >> I just want everyone to be off their. phone. I want everyone to go back to. dumb phones. And and here's why that I. go through periods of time where I put. my phone away totally. I put it in a. little safe, and I lock it away for like. 12 hours or 20 hours or. um. you know, before we had a kid, me and my. wife would go away, and she as a. novelist, she has to do that kind of. deep work, you know. You can't kind of.

dip in and out of it. >> The way she does at least, she can't. And so the phone would go away for like. 5 days. We like check into a hotel, give it to. them and say, we'll take this when we check out. >> Mhm. >> Time feels totally different. >> Mhm. >> My. experience of the day feels totally. different. The thoughts in my mind are. totally different. I'm a little bit closer to being. obsessed with the Velcro on the shoe. again, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> I would love to just.

do that. I don't know what that means. about this show though, Jay, and who. gets to see it. Maybe we'll have certain. just certain hours in the day. >> Yeah. >> Where we can all go back online. >> great answer. I love it. I feel like. that's that's that's the crux of it all. Rizwan Ahmed, be uh excited for. everything that comes from this day. I. hope we stay in touch. Yeah, man. It's. been such a joy to do this with you and. I hope you felt you got to share. everything and anything you wanted to. talk about. Absolutely. And thank you. for creating the space for me and for. other people. It's a very enriching. space and empowering one where we can.

just be vulnerable in that way and. share. So, thank you. Thank you, man. Thank you. >> If you're feeling inspired by this. episode, you won't want to miss my. conversation with Wicked's Cynthia. Erivo. >> We are afraid to let a person go. And we. need to be okay with letting people go. We don't know what path people are. walking on when they walk into our. lives. We might just be a stepping stone. in their path, just like stepping. [music] stones in their life.