MICHELLE OBAMA Opens Up On Her 8 Years In The White House: "We Know Too Much."

There's such a thing as knowing too. much. You've been married to the president of. the United States who knows everything. about everything in the world. Sometimes. you just. A phenomenally successful author, please. welcome the former first lady of these. United States, Michelle Obama. I don't want people looking at me and. Barack like #couplesgoals. No, no. There are some broken things. that happen even in the best of. marriages. What is the thing that keeps you up at. night now?

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Michelle, thank you so much for joining. me on purpose. This is such an honor. I'm so grateful to have you here. I'm. thrilled to be here. I'm a fan. Oh, that's That is That That means more to. me than you know. Thank you so much. And. I'll dive straight in. What is the best. part about being you? I have never. thought about that. That is a great. question. I think. my family, my friendships, I think one. of the things that Barack and I we. always talk about is that we're proud of.

the fact that we've kept our community. You know, people that we've known all. our lives are still a part of that. community that keeps us solid and keeps. us whole and grounded. It's easy to lose. your head on this journey that we've. been on and I think what keeps us. focused is that we've had we have some. solid people in our lives and we make it. a point to cultivate those relationships. and to learn to be intentional about.

them. And I think that that's probably. one of the coolest things is that, you. know, I've got this big kitchen table of. people who keep me focused and and keep. me honest. Uh what's the longest. friendship then, non-family? Like what's. the Oh. in years would you say? The. longest friendship, I mean, gosh, childhood friendships I I still. have. I've sort of picked up friends. throughout every part of my life. You. know, I've got one or two. I've got the.

high school friends that I keep in touch. with, the college friends, the law. school friends, you know, so you sort of. gather people throughout. Um. and I've I've had a lot of people who've. sort of just hung in there Yeah. before. we were the Obamas. Yeah. How how does. that work? I feel like so many people. who are on their journey, a lot of us. don't take steps forward because we're. scared of what our friends will think. Some of us get carried away with success.

and ego and pride goes to your head and. then you alienate people. Sometimes it's. envy and jealousy from everyone else who. didn't join you on the journey. How do. you navigate a multi-decade. level friendship when everyone is going. through so much? What are the kind of. key milestones in maintaining that. kitchen table? You know, I I talk about. this journey like climbing Mount. Everest. You start Not that I've ever. done that, by the way. But what I've. heard about climbing Mount Everest is.

that you you start out at base camp and. then you hit these summits along the. way. And everybody starts out the. journey ready, you know? They think, "I'm going to make it to the top." And. then you start the climb and some people. are ready for it and some people aren't. And it's surprising. that you learn along the climb who's. really ready. And there are people who. just emotionally, physically can't go. the whole way. They run out of oxygen,

you know, they weren't fit for the. climb, right? And one of the hardest. things is like when you discover that, I. mean, do you do you stop? Do you go back. because there was one member that wasn't. ready? Or do you keep climbing and sort. of leave them where they are? And we. found that that's been the the pattern, right? There are people who have been. they they were built for the climb like. we were and some weren't. And I I find. that I I talk to young people about.

this, too, because when you're. a kid coming from nothing, um, and I. won't say that I came from nothing, but. Barack nor I came from wealth or. connection or fame or fortune. Um, so we have a hodgepodge of people in. our lives and one of the toughest things. is to find out that a dear friend wasn't. ready for the climb. And in order to. keep pressing forward, we tell young. people that sometimes you got to leave. them there.

Because you can't carry people when. you're trying to get to the top. Um, it. slows you down, um, but there's, you. know, survivor's remorse that comes with. it. And I know there you know, a lot of. times when I talk to kids and I see them. well up, I see in them that struggle. That they've reached a point where. they've left people they love behind and. they struggle to figure out how to. weather or how to maintain those. connections and it becomes hard and it's.

draining. You know, kids, for example, who got the opportunity to go to college. when half their family isn't eating. Yes. Right? And they've got a student. loan and they need to use that loan to. pay for their books, but they're trying. to send money back home to pay the. electric bill. And I tell those kids like if you want. to make it, you've got to make some hard. choices about what to do with your life. or you will not make the climb yourself. And then everyone loses. And then everybody loses. And I think. that's how we've had to look at it.

We've been fortunate enough that we've. had so many people who were ready for. the climb. They had to adjust, they had. to go back and do a little working out, but for the most part they've made it. But for the people who couldn't, we had. to leave them behind and keep climbing. And if once we made it to the top, if we. could reach back and pull some others. up, we definitely did that. It is one of. the greatest challenges when you were. pursuing a life that is drastically. different from the one that you come.

from. Is there such a thing as a. graceful end? Well, it depends on who's. doing the ending, right? Yes. Sometimes, you know, sometimes I say. there's such a thing as the slow ghost. You know, where. you just sort of let relationships take. their natural course. Friendships and relationships kind of. tell you when they're ready. Yeah, that's so true. And you have to kind of. listen to it. You you learn as you get.

older. You know, sometimes you held on. too long, you let some, you know, bad. juju stay around too too long. And as. you get older you you can recognize, right? I've always approached life and. friendships and I try to tell my. daughters this too is stay open. Mhm. Stay open to the possibility of people. I never want my daughters and I never. wanted to feel so high that I was closed. off and suspicious. You know, not.

wanting to let new people in, right? And. that becomes very difficult when you're. the president and the first lady. You. know, you could you know, close your. life off so much, right? Because. everyone might want something from you. Totally. But I always felt like, well, that's a loss. You know, because if you. close everybody out, then you miss some. gems. Mhm. We've tried to be open and find ways to. let new people in our lives and develop. new relationships.

And what I tell my kids is trust your. gut. Because you'll know. when people should be let out. But keep keep your aperture wide open. Mhm. Let people in, but when they show. you who they are, let them out quickly. Mhm. And you as older you get, you you. know, it's like, yeah, that wasn't that this one isn't working. out. So, let's just cut it quick, but. stay open. Mhm. And you're naturally. going to make mistakes. You're naturally.

going to get hurt. Absolutely. So true. So true. That's going to happen, but it's better. to be aware, note down the lesson, but. be open in the first place because being. closed is worse. You. You miss you miss out on the goodness, the possibility, the opportunity, the. the new, right? And I never want to miss. out on the new. I I'd rather keep give. people the benefit of of the doubt, bring them in, and and let them.

disappoint me. It's like I I can deal. with disappointment. I can be I can I. can get over hurt. Mhm. But I don't want to lose the. possibility of someone special coming. in. Wow. That's the greater trade-off. That's so powerful. And it's proven to. be. the right approach. You know, we we've. just met some wonderful people along. this journey, and gosh, if I had closed. myself off to that, I oh, I think of the friendships, the.

influences that I wouldn't have had. So, I want my girls to stay open, you know? I want them to open people. Yes, I had a. mentor in London probably around 10. years ago and he devised this set of. questions. that gives you your personality type and. there's so many tests like this. But his. was really interesting and it's very. aligned with your thinking. So. and he also had types where we'd get. locked and he'd call this CSC. He said. the more closed, the more specific and.

the more controlling you get, Mhm. the less you're able to actually. connect, grow, evolve, learn. And he. would always say as you're saying, the. more open, random, and supportive you. are, the more likely you are to be able. to invite people into your life at. different times. And I I love hearing. that because. that. Yeah, it was yeah, that change. from closed select oh, closed, selective, and controlling to open, random, and supportive. He was saying, you never know, you could have a random. interaction with someone that could be. the most beautiful lesson of your life.

And. And I also felt that, you know, when. you're the president of the United. States and the First Lady, you have to. be open. Mhm. You have to be open to all the. possibilities. You can't live in your. fortress and govern the people, right? And I think we benefited from the fact. that we had to figure out how to be. regular people in the White House. because we had kids in school. And so, we couldn't become just White House. people. We had to get to know that.

community and go to parent-teacher. conference and make friends with other. parents because we wanted our kids'. lives to be normal. But that. in a way kept me connected with people. and what they were really feeling and. what their challenges were and it keeps. me open and empathetic to people because. I'm engaged and I'm not sitting in my. castle looking out at everybody else. Mhm. Absolutely. So, I found it. particularly necessary in our role.

Yeah, so that's the best thing. That's. beautiful. What has been the worst or. the hardest part about being you? Well, I think it's the flip side of that coin. of that when you're on the top of Mount. Everest, it can be isolating and. dystopic in a way. You know, I think one. of the greatest things that we've. learned to appreciate in this role and I. I tell young people this, especially. young people who think they want fame, you know, it's like, do you know what. that is?

You know, are you grasping for something. that you have no idea or your parents. pushing you towards this thing? Is that when you become famous, well-known, you lose your anonymity. That's a tough thing to lose. price. Right? It's a huge price, right? The natural. everyday. thing of of sitting and being able to. sit in the world and observe it Mhm. and. not be observed, right? I mean Wow, that's a really interesting way of.

putting it, yeah. yeah, just sort of sitting in a park. and watching the world happen with. nobody. pulling you out of it, right? The simple. walk through a park or standing in line. at the grocery store and overhearing. life. We don't have that, you know, we. don't have spontaneity in the same way. and that's a hard thing to lose. Mhm. Now, here's the thing, fortunately we. lost it we lost it in our 40s.

I just think of kids who are reaching. for it not knowing that you you're about. to lose a really valuable thing. You. want to you're striving to lose it and. you're only 18, 20. You don't want to. lose your anonymity. You don't want to. trade that off for anything in the world. because once you lose it, you lose a a. more. We've adjusted, right? Because. we're adults. So, yes, I can figure out.

how to make one move, go on a walk, visit a friend, but I have to call like 12 people, and I. have to think about the movements, and. security has to be lined up. We can't do. the ordinary things of life, you know, go to a movie theater or. I joked at COVID when people asked when. we were all in quarantine, how did it feel? And I was like, well, it was kind of easy for us because we've. lived in quarantine.

for like, you know, a decade. a decade, yeah. And so, you learn to live. in this smaller footprint. But, it's. that's a tough thing that I don't think. people think about when they think of. power and fame, and there's there's some. downsides to it. Yeah. And and what do you What do people. want the most from you? And because I. love the idea of what you're saying of. being open. It's such That mindset is so. special. Yeah. I guess when that when you are. open and then, like you said, you can. get over that hurt. What is the hurt.

that you usually have to get over or. most commonly that you've had to deal. with? Well, the Maybe hurt is too strong of a. word. Um again, because we're older, it's just the loss of a piece of. yourself. Right. You know, I mean, people always ask me I was in Chicago. the other day, and every time I go back. to Chicago, people are like, do you miss. Chicago? I miss the Chicago that we knew. before we were. here. Wow, it's powerful, yeah. That Chicago is no longer available to.

us. To you, yes, yeah. You know, the way we loved it in that. way. And that's that's a loss. Is it a. hurt? Is it personal? No, it's just the way. life is, but it's still a loss. You. know, my husband loves New York, and it. was interesting, he thought for a. second, because he's been more isolated. than me. Mhm. He thought for a minute, when we the White House, we'll live in. New York." I was like, "Dude, you can't live in New York.".

And it's just he cannot access the. wonderful city of New York in the way. that he remembered when he was in his. 20s. Because guess what we can't do? We. can't walk down the street. We can't get. on the subway. We can't necessarily walk. through Central Park without a big plan. You know, the things that make you New. York, New York, we. can't access it. That's the part I. don't, you know, the people part, the. connection to people part. I never get. exhausted by that because I'm open,

right? So, it's not the people, right? It's just the way you want to live your. life, especially when you're open, right? You want to be open. You want to. be in the midst of people. And we've lost that. Absolutely. I think. what's beautiful about this book, The. Light We Carry, and Becoming, is it. shows us just how many trials, challenges, setbacks that you've had to overcome, and that you've gone through in your.

life so elegantly, gracefully, tactfully, you know, with. with so much determination and drive. And I'm intrigued that after having. overcome so much, like you said, climbing Mount Everest, using that as. our. as our analogy, what is the thing that keeps you up at. night now, or what is is your biggest. fear now after having overcome so many? It has less to do with me personally and. more to do with the world that we're in. There's such a thing as knowing too. much.

And when you've been married to the. president of the United States, who. knows everything about everything in the. world, sometimes you just want to turn. it off, right? It's like, I don't know I don't. want to know what was in that folder. that you just got that made you quiet, you know? I don't want to know why the. security just pulled you over. I mean, it could be any range of things that. comes across the desk of the leader of. the free world, right? So, I know a lot. about what's going on and. what keeps me up are the things that I.

know. Um the war in the region, in too. many regions. What is AI going to do for. us? The environment, you know, are we. moving at all fast enough? What are we. doing about education? Are people going. to vote? And why aren't people voting? Are we too stuck to our phones? I mean, those are the things that keep me up. because you you don't have control over. them. And you wonder, where are people at. Where are we in this? You know, where.

are our hearts? What's going to happen. in this next election? I am terrified. about what could possibly happen because. our leaders matter, who we select, who. speaks for us, who holds that bully. pulpit. It affects us in ways that I. sometimes I think people take for. granted. You know, the fact that people. think that government, you know, it isn't Does it really even. do anything? And I'm like, oh my god, does government do everything for us?

And we cannot take this democracy for. granted. And sometimes I I worry that we. do. Those are the things that keep me. up. What What habits have you developed. because I think. people may not have access to the news. you do, but I think people can. definitely relate Yes, yes. to what you're saying of like. Absolutely. Jam, just seeing all the. news on my phone, I'm connected to the. TV, I'm hearing things from friends and. family. Like, I think a lot of people. can relate to you saying, I feel like I. know too much. What are some of the. habits of practices or rules that you've.

developed that have really become your. saving grace because like you said, to. you it's not just a news update, it's a. folder, it's the person calling, it's a. private meeting, whatever it may be. You're In one sense, it's even more. extreme because you're so privy to the. actual reality as opposed to a news. channel, which is part of reality. So. One of the most important practices is. is deliberately turning that off. for a moment or more than a moment. And.

I encourage that. I think our phones are. sort of the regular man's equivalent to. what I just described. We're too. connected all the time. We're reading. too much. We're taking too much in. We. are constantly being fed by images, and. that's become the norm, and it's. we've been sort of marketed that that's. cool. That's what we should want. But. our brains are not. We are We are not.

that sophisticated a species. Yeah. We. have not evolved enough to be able to. take in that much information on a. constant basis, and our kids certainly. are not prepared to handle it. I think. that that plays a huge role in the. higher rates of depression and suicide. among young people. They've got to let. their brains rest from the noise. Even. though, you know, we're all trying to. fix everything, everyone needs a break.

from it, right? So I am very deliberate. about knowing that I can't take all that. in, and and and we're getting it in such. sort of misinterpreted way, right? We've. got, you know, confirmation bias. We're. reading only what we already believe, and. I know I have to be very deliberate. about, you know, understanding that a lot of. the information I'm getting isn't even. complete. I do.

filter, you know. And then I I develop. habits that shut my brain off to. thinking, Mhm. right? I I wrote in The. Light about knitting, you know, which is. a habit that I I developed, a hobby that. I developed over quarantine. And that's. because it makes you so present and so. It It. Engaging. It It It It shuts your brain down and. allows your your hands, the motion, to. take over. Mhm. And in that way I found. that it is meditative, right? Um and.

that's what meditation is, it's quieting. your noisy mind. And some of us can't. connect to meditation, but I think we. need it. Mhm. I I think biologically we need to. shut that part of ourselves down to get. a rest from it. And I find that knitting. does it, exercise does it, um learning. something physical shuts my mind down. I. mean, I've taken up tennis, and there's. nothing that shuts my mind down than. running after a green ball.

and trying to figure out Move your feet. Hit the ball. Follow through. It's like, yeah, um. that shuts my mind down. For the hour or. 90 minutes that I'm doing that thing, I'm not worrying, you know? I'm. breathing, I'm outside, I'm letting the. sun hit my face. I am Those habits and. routines of. creating something, right? And we're do. We do that less and less now. It's like.

everything is all in the mind, it's all. technology. But I think we need. something where The thing I I love about. knitting is that at the end of it, I've. made something. You know? It's It's It's. just satisfying in a very different way. from problem solving or analysis, Yes. right? Building, creating, painting, drawing, fixing, putting something real. into the world that came from your own. hands. Yes. Something small, you know? That's.

why I talk about the power of small in. the light we carry because a lot of. times our brains are trying to do the. big fix. Mhm. And that's when we feel hopeless. and we're tired because most of us don't. have the power to fix anything on at a. big scale. But we can focus on the small. things that we have control over. Mhm. You know, making a sweater for your daughter, helping mentor a child in your. neighborhood, loving the children you.

bring into the world and making sure. they have everything they need. That's. where change happens, right? And when I. do those kinds of activities, I meditate. into that power, right? That small. power. That there is satisfaction from. hitting a stupid ball over a net. Yes. You know, and getting a good swing out. of it. It's like it makes the day better. because I served the ball right or I. finished a scarf.

Yeah. I love No, you're so right. I'm and I'm. so glad you're using the word shutting. down. And this switch to analog. I. remember at one point, and I think. everyone can relate to this, you wake up. to your phone. I'd be brushing my teeth. and I'm on my phone. I'm eating. breakfast and I'm on my phone. You know, just your phone is now tethered to your. hand in every activity that you're doing. throughout the day. And so your brain is. never shutting down and thing is we all.

know our phones need a reset, they need. a update, they need a software refresh. or whatever it may be. And I think I saw. somewhere that the human brain today has. to process like 74 gigabytes worth of. information a day. Yeah. Yeah. A day. And I was thinking, I remember. when your phone doesn't, you know, it's. a lot. And when you think about it, this is a. brand new technology, right? You know, when we got into the White House, we. could we had blackberries, right? Wow, yeah. Uh social media wasn't a.

thing, right? All of that came into. being in the 8 years that we were in the. White House, and it's just gone off like. a rocket ship. We don't evolve that quickly, you know, humans it takes generations for us to. evolve. We haven't adapted to this new. media. We haven't we have not. biologically. Mhm. adapted. Mhm. And so no wonder we're stressed. Yes. No wonder we're we're full of. anxiety. No wonder our kids are.

struggling, you know, because we we have. a new technology and we've just we we've. taken it in hook, line, and sinker. We're not even questioning how much, you. know, the more the merrier, right? I. think we need to be very mindful about. this new gadget. Yes. And we have to be mindful for our. kids because they have no filter, right? They'll just be thumbing through this. stuff, you know, their their minds never.

sleeping, and as parents of my. generation, we know so little about it. We don't we don't even know how to. monitor it. Mhm. It's like cigarettes, right? Is it. good for us? I mean, at one point. everybody smoked. Yeah. until we realized, oops, this. isn't really. Today. really good for us, right? I think we we. have to be cautious about this this new. thing that we're just lapping up. Yeah, I read an article a few years ago, exactly it was saying that today we.

absorb in 1 day, in 24 hours, the same. amount of tragedy we would in our entire. lifetime 25 years ago. Today we absorb. what we would in our entire lifetime in. 1 day, and it felt real. And that's why. people feel more panic. I mean, Barack, my husband, is a He's a fact-based guy. He's a science guy. Sometimes it's not. popular these days, right? Having a. president that believes in facts and.

science and all that stuff, but he's one. of those people. And he always says, you. know, statistically speaking, especially. when young people bemoan where we are. today, he says, you know, if you look at. history and statistics, if you were to. pick any time in human history to be. born, you'd want to be born now. Crime, war, those rates are at the lowest. But. nobody feels that. People feel more.

unsafe. Why? Because they're. they're getting fed images of every. crime that happens anywhere, everywhere. All right? And when we were growing up, you just heard your local news, you. know? It's just like, oh, there was a. fire or that kid, you know, and you. know. Now we're getting everything not. just from our community, but all over. the world. Stuff that's always been. happening, we just didn't know about it. We now we know too much.

And we're interpreting that to mean. things are horrible. We went through. world wars and depressions and famine. This isn't new. It's just we know. everything. And that's one way to look. at it. Yes, yes, absolutely. And and I think. you're right because there's the. incomplete information. I like the word. incomplete that you said. I appreciate. that kind of subtle point. Incomplete. information, then you have opinions, then you have feelings and emotions, and. so there's there's so much more. information on every level. You have the.

physical information, the emotional. information, the mental information, of. course the physical experience of it. And and it and it can be it can be too. much. One of the uh. It's so interesting you use the analogy. of climbing Mount Everest because. I went to see a comedy show a little. recently, and I'm trying to remember the. comedian's name so I'll have to find it. afterwards and and put him in there but. he literally was describing he was. saying relationships are like climbing. Mount Everest and so what he said was he. goes you start at base camp and he goes. you and your partner are ready you're. ready to go you're being guided and then.

at one point you're like oh we're cold. but it's okay we'll keep each other warm. we'll be fine and then he goes you get. to the first stop and you go oh yeah. like have you have you did you pack them. the gloves did you pack the gloves and. then your partner goes oh no I forgot. the gloves and you're like oh it's okay. it's okay we'll just keep our hands warm. then you get a bit higher and then they. were like now it's got to a point where. it's really cold and you go why did you. forget those gloves like you know it's. like the like come on like why do you. forget those gloves then you get the. next stop and your partner says to you. like you packed the sandwiches right.

and then you look at the sandwiches like. I don't know where the sandwiches are. anyway and so you talk about this so. much in your work in your book like. relationships are challenging they're. difficult I think you've been together. now for over 30 years 31. 31 years. 31 years congratulations. October. okay amazing 31 years congratulations. that's incredible and so inspiring in so. many ways my wife and I have been. together for 10 years and. that counts counts and and you know. definitely like can see the the. challenges unforeseen and seen that come.

with being together over long periods of. time my wife and I in 2016 we. both changed jobs so we got married we. changed jobs and moved country so we. moved from London to New York that year. we both quit our jobs in London I could. work here my wife couldn't at the time. because of her visa and we started new. lives and we obviously moved home and. we're away from our families and that. year was. it brought us closer thankfully but it. was a very challenging difficult year.

because I've heard that those are some. of the hardest things you can do the. only thing we didn't do was have a kid. that's right and. you you covered all the hard bases. from president and first lady I think. that that takes it but when you're going. for all these challenges, you've talked. about these many many times before, has there ever been. a time when you've said things or done. things and afterwards thought, I wish I. didn't do that. I wish I didn't say. that. What, in my marriage? Yes, yes. Of course. I yesterday. I love that. How do How do you How do you because.

you've been together for 31 years, how. do you rectify something like that when. you know because there's a difference. between being spiteful or being silly, but like when you really feel like, I. shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't. have said that. Like, how do you address. something that You know, that's the. practice of relationships, right? After. 31 years, yeah, we still do it, but you. know it quicker. And then you you. apologize, you know, you you learn how. to say my bad, right? And that takes. that takes a second, right? You know,

that's why I talk about relationships in. the light, I talk about marriage because. I I just think that number one, most. people don't talk about it. Like, our. parents didn't talk about your marriage. You didn't talk about your feelings. You. didn't talk about Your parents didn't. tell you about the challenges they were. facing. So, why? Why don't we share the. whole experience? Because what happens. is that by not knowing, you hit in in. your relationship some natural like. understandable rough patches.

and you want to quit. And it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. That's not. quit-worthy. That's just That's the just. the nature of things. You know, that's. why I joked, it's like, oh, you're mad. at your partner? You You're mad for a. year and you think the marriage is over? Nah, nah. You're going to have decades. of. I don't know if I like you, you know, because over the span of a 30-year. marriage, yeah, you cobble together.

enough arguments and you got a decade, right? And that's just the way it goes, but you. don't quit on it, right? You learn from. it, and that's what sustaining a. relationship is. It's the choice to. figure it out, not to quit when it gets. hard. So, yeah, I said something that I. didn't mean to say, right? You're You're. five, we might have had hurt feelings, and it would have taken days to rectify. it. You're 30,

it's like, uh there she goes again, or. there he goes again. I know when how to. talk to him about it and when, because. we've practiced it. We've made a lot of mistakes, we've. gotten it wrong, and after 31 years, we're getting better at it, and it gets. better and better and better. You know, look, if you lived with your roommate. for 30 years, you would hate them at. some point in time, but it wouldn't be. some defining thing. You have.

friendships, if they last long, you're. going to have some falling out. Why do. we put so much pressure on marriage to. to not be hard? It's the natural hardest. thing you will ever do, which is to try. to build a life with another person who. wasn't raised in your shoes, who has a. totally different temperament, right? And you're like having other people with. them. You know, you bring other lives and. other personalities into the mix, and. then life is happening.

Of course it's going to be hard, you. know? But I wouldn't trade in my. marriage for anything in the world with. all the ups and downs, with all the. running for president stuff. I was like, why'd you do that? I mean, talk about. that being a big gaping. Yeah, transition, yeah. thing in our. lives, but the good has outweighed it, and if we hadn't hung in there, we would. have missed all the good. And that's. what I tell young people, like. First of all, pick well.

Pick somebody you respect and like. Start there, right? And then remember. that that's who they are. And then. understand that with that, they are. going to be and you are going to be. deeply, deeply flawed. And you're going to make a whole lot of. mistakes, right? But in the end, you can. look that person in the eye and you go, "You're still the person that I like and. love and respect and we can figure this. out.". So, I share that.

Because I don't want people looking at. me and Barack like #couplesgoals. and not know that no, no, there are some. broken things that happen even in the. best of marriages. Absolutely. And and. you used that term quit-worthy. Is that something that you defined for. yourself, what you saw as quit-worthy. and what you saw as not quit-worthy? a good question. Look, I think there. there are some objective quit-worthy. things, like criminality. Of course. Abuse. But hey, that's that's that's me,

you know? There are some people who love. through a whole lot of things. So, I. think that has to be individual, but if. I were talking to my daughters, I. wouldn't want them in to stay in a. marriage that made them feel oppressed, that was an overall negative to who they. were, right? I do think there are. reasons to walk away from marriage, friendship, a whole jobs, a whole lot of. things, right? So, yeah, I have a clear.

list of like the non-negotiables, but. everybody has their own. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's so. important that, you know, everyone who's. listening and watching, the idea of. having our own. quit-worthy definition is is such a need. because it can get really hard to find. clarity when you get really deep into. something. A practice that I love doing. with a lot of my clients and even people. that I work with or online is I ask. everyone to write down the needs that.

they have in their life. Mhm. And then write down the people that. fill those needs. And it could be. themselves, too, some of them. And then. some of them are their friends, their. mom, their dad. And of course, in your. book, like we know it's like your mom's. like wisdom, right? Like like she's the. Buddha in your life, as you say. You you. see different people. What are the roles. that you initially wanted President. Obama to fill that you then realized. they actually needed to be filled by. other people? That's a good question. Um I write about. it. The fact that it we we are two very.

independent, ambitious, smart people and. complex, you know, as as individuals. We, you know, we're dynamic and you. know, I'm not saying that as a. ego trip, but. No, I know what you mean. You're. constantly in flux and. right. And I learned it took me a while. to learn that, you know, there's no way. we could be everything to each other. We. have different interests, different. goals. There was a stage in my marriage. where I thought that's what a partner.

was supposed to be, you know, you should. call me all the time. We should talk all. the time. We should be each other's best. friends all the time. Our marriage got. better when I got better about that. because I think he already had that. independence, this this notion of. I love you. I don't even if I don't talk. to you today. That to me is like I don't. need that. I felt like I needed more of. that. Mhm. But as I got older, right, I. got more mature, more clear about my own.

goals, I realized that I, you know, he. can't be responsible for my happiness. I. have to be responsible for that. I have. to define it for myself, have to learn. how to achieve it. My husband is. definitely a part of that, but he is not. the he I cannot put him in the center of. my happiness. That freed me up to let. him be him and let me be me. So, I have friends who give me things that.

my husband doesn't give me. I have. girlfriends who One distinction that we. have is like I may talker. All right, when I sit down with my. girlfriends, we can talk for days. I. mean literally for days. We can take a. break for lunch, but we can talk. You know, my husband's not He He can. talk, but he He'll come by a friendship. session, you know, 9:00 in the morning. I have a friend staying with me and he's. like, "What are y'all talking about?" I.

was like, "Well, we're just now getting. into our kids and we're going to talk. about each one of them separately for. like an hour, right?" He's like, "I I. couldn't do that, right?" He can't be. that for me, but I have really good. mostly girlfriends who give me that, you. know? They We will dissect life to the. bitter. We will ring everything out of. every subject. And he's like, "I think. I'm done." Yes. I was like, "Well, you. can go be done cuz I've got her and we. just got started. We're going to We got.

12 more hours to go, right?". And And that's so beautiful to hear. because I think, especially when we're. young, we think that that person has to. be all of that. And And from the. beginning and or they'll become it. There's the other fallacy of like, "Oh, well, I know who they could be and who. they could become." How much of that did. you feel you had to disconnect and. detach from of like. what this person could be to you, obviously, not in the world, but. disconnect from all of those beliefs,

right? Um and every couple is different, I found. I I know people who are each. other's best friends. They like to. travel together. They walk and hold. hands. And I I have friends who are in. relationships where they talk like every. hour. Mhm. I'm like, "Are you talking to. again? Nothing changed. You know, it's up to. the individuals to define that for. themselves. Um. That's a keyword, yeah. for Barack and. I. And I think you should be clear about. that because the other thing is that. when we hold on internally to an.

expectation of the other person, we. don't even share it. So now we're mad. that you haven't even fulfilled. something I never even told you I. needed, you know? That takes time and it takes work, which. is why marriage is hard. Yes. Because you'll have the tendency to live. in your head and live out the image of. what you want them to be and you haven't. even communicated that to them. That's. just one little fraction of the. challenge of marriage and friendship and. all of that. Yes. It's hard. It takes. time, but it's worth it. Absolutely.

Yeah, I think those. those check-ins are the hardest. I I. know that there's there's four check-ins. that I try and keep a good habit around. with my wife that have really helped me. One of them is every day I'll ask her. like. what was your highlight today or what. did you learn today? Something something. positive, something like what's what's. the best thing that happened to you. today? I want to know because it's so. easy for us to get so busy in our days, not see each other all day, not speak. all day. And days can go by like that, too, because we're also traveling.

Then every week I try and ask her like. how can I what can I help you with this. week? Like is there something coming up. that I just need to be aware of? Yeah. Sometimes it's just information. Yeah. And that gives me an opportunity. to also tell her I've got a really. stressful week coming up. Just know that. I may not be at my best this week. I'm. just letting you know. Uh every month I'm, you know, checking. in with her and trying to just say to. her like uh what's what's your big focus. for this month? Like, you know, what's. what's the big thing that you're working. on? Then every year is easy like, you. know, what's your goal this year? A. resolution or whatever. And I find that.

those questions and sometimes every. quarter I'll ask a question which is the. hardest one, but it's like, is this. relationship going in the direction you. want it to? Mhm. And if it isn't, what are you. willing to do and what am I willing to. do to get it back on track? Yeah. Because I find so often, like if. you just don't talk about that deep. intimacy, you're just going on different. tracks and that's why 5 years later. you're like, "Well, I don't know you. anymore.". Yeah, yeah. And so I find that like. staying in close contact, but one of the. biggest things I read which I wanted to.

try with you was the Gottman Institute. talked about how the number one skill or. habit in relationships, and they looked. at couples the longest and they found it. wasn't date nights, it wasn't vacations, it wasn't any of this stuff, it was. learning how to fight. Oh, yeah. Yeah. how to deal with conflict and most. couples, obviously, we all go, "Well, we. never fight or we're never going to. fight." But it's inevitable. So, I came. up with these three fight styles and I. wanted to know. Okay. how you see yourself and how you.

see President Obama or how he would see. him himself. And so, here the three. fight styles are a venter, which means I. want to fix and solve it right now. You. like to vent. Mhm. But you're really. trying to fix and solve it. The second. one is you're a hider, you need time and. space to think about it. You just want. to go spend time by yourself. And then. the third one is the exploder where it's. like, "I want my emotions to be heard, felt, and seen before we take time about. or before we try and solve it." Which. one are you? Okay, so I've changed over.

I think early on in our relationships I. was more of an exploder. Wow. I think he. has been always been a fixer. Mhm. Right? The venter yeah, fixer yeah. So then I. would be explosive and then want to. hide, right? It's like, "I want to. explode, let me have my emotions, and. then give me a moment.". Yes. Right? And he's like, "We've got to fix. this. We've got to, you know, shut this. down. We got to I will figure it out. Let's talk this through." Um. And I love that about him, especially as. a man. You know, he is somebody that is.

not afraid to put his emotions out. He's. smart and so he knows me. So he's like. he won't let me pretend like there's. nothing wrong because he knows I know. there's something. You're a little off. and. um but I've had to learn that exploding. on a fixer it doesn't feel good to them, right? It's just you know, it feels good. for me, but it doesn't feel good for him, right? But he's learned that as a hider that I.

do need a little more time, right? If. I'm exploding. I can't be rational enough to talk. through your fixing. And you if you want. to fix it, then I've got to be in a. rational place. So let me hide for a minute so I can get. myself down to a fixer place. I think. that's been the trajectory. of our sorting through learning how to. argue, but I like I like those. But he's.

he's been pretty consistent. He is. consistently the fixer. You know, and he's also much more even. keel, you know, than I am emotionally. We're just different people in that way. and he's learned not to be too afraid of. the explosiveness. It's like. I don't mean it. I'm just saying it. right now cuz I need to say it. Right? And that awareness that you're just. displaying there is so powerful to to. witness because you realize wow, it's.

not as serious as I'm making it out to. be. It's important. it's it's important and I need to take. note of it, but it's I don't need to. deal with it in this Right. Right. It. well and it's maturing. We all say well. say what's on your mind, you know, tell. it like it is. And it's like yeah, I'm. that tends to be who I am, but as you. get older you realize yeah, that's your. heart, but your head tells you you want. to be heard. And you have to think about who you're. talking to and what your end goal is.

because that will dictate how you have. to communicate to them. So, when you're young, you just want to be. heard. Yes. As you get older, you have a goal. You want to achieve. something. Mhm. And being heard in the way you say. it may not get you to your goal. Yes. I mean, that's at the crux for me. of what going high is, right? I mean, going high is being strategic. If you're. really trying to make change, you have. to think about whether your approach.

will allow for change to happen. You. know, going high means you're thinking. about a broader point outside of your. own anger or hurt or pain. You're thinking, "Where am I trying to. get to and how do I do that with this. group that I'm trying to move?" That's. passion matured. Mhm. into purpose. And young people. often, they want to just act with. passion, right? But passion doesn't always solve a. thing. And I've learned that in my.

relationship, you know, my passion isn't. is meaningless if my husband can't hear. it. You know, if I've hurt his feelings in. the process, well, what's That's not the. point. You know, so I have to mature my. passion. You know, I have to mature as a. mother, right? I have to be very careful. as a mother with the words I say. I. can't just say what's on my mind. I can. I have to think about how I say it to. which child, because they're both.

different, and they both need to be. parented different, right? So, going. high is like to me, it's the mature way. to live, right? It's the. It's mature way to get the message. across. It doesn't mean that how you. feel isn't relevant, right? It's true. It's real and true, but that's that's. for you to deal with. When you're. dealing with external people, whether. it's your husband or your kids or your. friends, your passion has to take weight of well.

well what's going to work with this. person? Mhm. What's going to work with. this group of people? To me, that's what. going high is. Yeah, what a great definition. I think. you're the best person to have this. conversation with. I love how you. explain the need for that. And actually. I I don't think I've heard it explained. in that way before. I really appreciate. it because I think currently we've. confused being authentic and being. strategic. What you were just saying is. when you're sharing how you feel, you. are being authentic, Mhm.

but maybe it won't be authentically. received or heard or seen because it. wasn't strategically perceived, but we. sometimes today perceive strategy as. manipulation or as a technique as. opposed to. Or selling out. Or selling out, right. But walk me. through that because I think how we. perceive we we've put authenticity on a. pedestal, which is not wrong, but we've. put strategy as like the thing that you. kind of, you know, shun. Well, and maybe. strategy is too strategic or hard of a.

word, but you could replace that with. empathy, Mhm. right? You know, if you are. connectivity, it's sort of like who am I. trying to move? And where are they in. this, right? And when you're the. president of the United States or the. first lady or you have a big platform, I've always felt like I have a. responsibility. to set my feelings aside and think about. where are you? Mhm. Why are you so.

angry? Where is your hate coming from? Mhm. Because yeah, I can be mad at your. hate. I can be mad that you're, you. know, you just said something racist or. you knock me down a peg or you misjudged. me, but if I'm trying to fix the. relationship, I've got to understand. what are you going through? Mhm. Where. did that perception come from? What's. your history? What puts you in this. spirit of hate? Because that's going to. dictate how we can even begin to have.

the conversation. I don't lose my. authenticity in that cuz I know who I. am, right? But I have to make room to. understand who you are. That's either. strategy or empathy. But to me, effective communication, especially if you're a leader, Mhm. if. you have the power, it requires a step. back. Yes. Right? And I think that's what going. high is. And I do, you're right. I think. in this day and age, we've kind of. supplanted that consideration.

Mhm. Because my feelings count. Mhm. My. voice has to be heard. Which is also why I think we have to. learn how to hear people throughout. Right? Yeah. to give people a space to be heard. outside of the anger. Right? Cuz that's. where all that's coming from, right? When people can't mature their response, it's because they don't have a voice. Mhm. It's like if I don't have a voice. in regular conversation, then I will.

make you hear me. Yes. Right? Young. people feel that way. Absolutely. Right? Oppressed people feel. that way. People who don't have a stake. in it feel that way. Which is why I. think it's strategic to. give everybody a piece of something Mhm. so that they feel seen and heard. I. think that brings that ratchets down the. anger, the explosiveness. Mhm. Because people can guarantee that.

they are being seen, they'll be heard. They don't have to yell, they don't have. to tear something apart. Mhm. They don't have to break it because. they own it. And we just lose sight of. that. 1000%. these days in our policies and our. perspectives. You can't shut people out. You know, I. talk about in the light when I think. about kids from communities that are. under invested in. Their their anger. their lack of like I don't none of this.

belongs to me. So why would I protect. it? Why wouldn't I break down your house. or. rob you or try to take your car? Because I don't own any of this. This. country is not mine. They don't see me, right? I think we do better with kids if they. feel like I've got a chance here. This. place is investing in me, so I'm. invested in it. We do that with kids in. the inner city, but we you know, we. don't talk about education. We don't. talk about what we're giving them or.

whether they have music or or joy or. sports or activities. We just want them. to have nothing and then be okay with. it. But they're going to fight to be. heard. Yes. They're going to fight to be seen, but they're not going to do it in a. rational way because. they don't have a strategic place and. they don't feel like they're a part of. it. So true. So true. When you're trying. to go high, when you're trying to have. this view of I want to understand your. story, I want to get inside your mindset.

and and recognize why you have evolved. in this direction or this particular. path, if anything, what does still. offend you? Like Injustice. Uh ego, greed. It's offensive. Racism, ignorance, it's. offensive. And I've always been that. kid. I don't like unfairness. I don't. like bullies. But I have to. think about how I deliver messages. That's beautiful. Still, even in my pain and my anger and.

my disappointment. So that those. emotions are there, Mhm. but I have to. think about where do where do I let that. out? Yes. In a safe space and that's. what my kitchen table is, right? I still. have those emotions but in my public. facing voice. I have to be responsible, right? And. strategic and thoughtful. about what's going to move the needle. What's going to add value? My emotional.

well-being gets taken care of at the. kitchen table. I I can't suffocate those. feelings but I can't act them out in the. town square. Yeah. Cuz I'm just going to. add fuel to the fire and that doesn't. help if we're trying to move the needle. And that doesn't make you inauthentic. I. don't believe because those feelings are. still mine and if you ask me I'll tell. you what I'm angry about but I I'm not. going to lead with that and in the midst. of the message I'll make it clear what I. stand for and what I don't stand for.

But the tone and tenor of the message. matters. We can't just say what what the first. thing that comes to our minds. We. cannot. That is not authenticity. To me. that's that's childish and we see. childish leadership right before us what. that looks like and how that feels. Where somebody is just base and vulgar. and. cynical.

in a leadership position. It it doesn't trickle down well, you. know, that just begets more of that. I think we are obligated to model for. those of us that have a platform because. it resonates. And I want to resonate good. I want to resonate reason and compassion. and empathy. And that's more important. than my feelings cuz my feelings I can.

take care of those. That is that's that's a masterclass in. communication right there. Genuinely, that is to hear that from you with so. much. empathy but energy. is so empowering for everyone who's. listening and watching because I think I. think we've approached it from the other. way around today. I think I think my. personal feelings, not mine, but in. general how we feel, my personal. feelings have become more important than. moving and supporting and serving and. caring and getting to where we need to.

get to. Yeah. Yeah. And that's because we've. suppressed those feelings. That's why. that has happened. It hasn't happened. because people are mean or insensitive. It's happened because people feel. they've been so unheard going back to. your point. And that's why we need to. give space. We need to get let this. rise. How early did you start. recognizing this for you in your own. life? Like where Do you remember like. the earliest before the White House like. where you actually were like, this. worked. Like this made sense and I still. felt good because I had my kitchen.

table. Is there anything that comes to. mind? And do I go to childhood? I don't. think I knew any of this when I was. little. But I think I you know, I. learned it on the campaign trail. Mhm. Mhm. It it was a product of one of. the hardest moments that I had on the. campaign trail, but one of the. best growth moments and I write about. this in The Light when I was accused of. not loving my country Mhm. because of. some phrasing I said. I learned first of.

all that when you have a public forum, especially in this day and age that it. and and you're like competing, people. will distort you whenever they can. And. and if they distort your words, your. truth, even your personhood, which I. felt like people attempted to do with. me, with us, they tried to otherize us. as the first black people, accusing my. husband of being a terrorist and not. being born in this country, accusing me.

of being an angry black woman and you. know, the labels that can easily get put. on. others that people that are othered, right? To make people afraid of us that. that. is a strategy that gets played again and. again and again. It was being played on me and it got me. to the point where I was almost ready to. quit campaigning, right? But then I thought I have to be. more strategic than they are about how I. deliver my message.

I have to be authentic, but I also have. to be careful. so that I don't get mischaracterized. I have to be smarter than them. That. doesn't mean I stop, but I had to regroup for a minute there. and really evaluate how am I going to. regain control over my narrative. and communicate in a broad way, right? That allows me to be heard especially as. a black woman. here being critical or being authentic.

or passionate, right? That was a learning curve to me. I I. mean I think my sentiments about the. importance of communication were always. there. My belief in how important it is. that stories connect us, that was there. I learned that in life, but learning how. to do that on the public stage, I I. learned the tricks and pitfalls of it in. my first campaign.

and those lessons stayed with me. Yeah, that's Thank you for that example. I. That example definitely connects. You. reminded me of probably one of my. favorite. set of words from Martin Luther King. where he said that people who love peace. need to learn to organize themselves as. well as those who love war. For those. who us who love love and love peace and. love compassion and empathy, if we're not organized about it, if. we're not strategic about it, if we're. not thoughtful about it,

That's right. it won't have the impact. that we all crave for it to have. Um. Michelle, we you've been so kind and. generous with your time. We end every. episode with a final five. Uh these are. the fast five which I always ruin. because I'm too interested and curious. Uh they're usually answered in one word. to one sentence god. I'm going to I'm. going to ruin it. So, it's fine. Uh so, the first question after asking Michelle. is what is the best advice you've ever. heard or received? I heard a lot of it.

from my wise. mom, "Come home. We like you here." Mhm. To explain that, it was like my parents. always taught me that. the world won't always like you, but you can't count on the world to like. you. Mhm. You come home to be liked. Mhm. You go out there to get your. education, to earn a living. You won't. necessarily find people who will see you. or love you or like you. You get that here, right? And that's.

been a piece of advice that's stuck with. me. beautiful. Thank you. That's that's so. powerful. I know a lot of people who. need to hear that right now. Uh second. question, what is the worst advice. you've ever heard or received? I don't. know. I don't I don't know that the. worst advice stays with me. You let it. go. My brother This isn't the worst, right? But it goes back to what we were. saying earlier. You know, he's like, "When you get into the White House, you. got to be careful. No new friends, right?". That's not who he is, but you know, it. was a short way of saying, "Be careful.".

I think staying open. was more important in this phase in our. lives than being closed off. I'm I'm glad we stayed open. I'm glad, too. Uh question number three, you said. that the White House doesn't change you, it reveals more of who you are. Yeah. What did it reveal to you about. yourself? That I'm pretty strategic and. smart and resilient. The White House. tests you in ways that.

you never anticipated. Mhm. And the fact that we came out as a. family, as individuals, the four of us, me and our two daughters, that was us. Mhm. That was our values, our compassion, our our smarts, our. strategy that got us through. You know, I'm so proud of my husband. The way he led, the way his administration worked, the.

team that we built, so proud of. everyone. I I may have. diverted from the question, but. Beautiful. Please continue. I think. that's that's because of who we are. And I know that now. Mhm. I can I can see it in your eyes and and. feel it from your words. Like it's. it might it must be hard like knowing. that, you know, it can't always be that way in one. sense. It's almost like. great that you've been able to leave, but there's a there's that feeling also.

of like, "Oh, but that was great." I. mean, the bars are different for people. in life. That I've learned. Mhm. This is the. thing about being another. Mhm. You learn how to be excellent all the. time. Mhm. because you can't be less than. Mhm. Other people can. Other people can. be indicted a bunch of times and still. run for for office. Black man can't. You just learn to be. good. And in the end, you benefit from.

that extra resilience. Mhm. You know, you could be mad about. it, but it also makes you. more equipped. Mhm. Right? But it's. still not fair. Yeah, definitely. Uh question number four, we've got two. more left. Question number four, you've obviously already. began living and will leave an. incredible legacy for the work that. you've done. If you could describe what. that you'd want that legacy to read,

if someone was reading it or hearing it, what would it what would it say? That she helped. more young people feel seen. Cuz I start with young people. Because with one word. we can change a kid's life. We can lift them up. But that same. wrong one word can crush them forever. Mhm. And those are the building blocks of our.

humanity. How we treat our kids. All of. them. All right? And so, I hope that my. legacy is creating a stronger foundation. for. young people. Mhm. A fifth and final. question. We ask this to every guest. who's ever been on the show. More more. appropriate with guests like yourselves, but uh, if you could create one law in. the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be? Everybody should have.

a a home to live in, food to eat, a job to go to, and education. Period. They would be the fundamental. rights of everyone in the world. Now, there could be levels of that. You know, we would not live where so few have so. much and so many have nothing. And that. law would create some kind of equity. We. have this trickle-down approach, right? That's the basis of a capitalistic.

economy, right? But that's not happening. Yeah. It's not trickling. The law would it would require in. whatever way, if we're not trickling. voluntarily, then we need to be forced to trickle. How do we create that law? It really I'm. in. How do we get that law? Mandatory. trickling down, right? Yeah. No, we so need that. We so need. that. What's blocking that? What's. what's stopping that? I think fear.

Yeah. I mean, I I write about fear. because I think fear is at the source of. so much because I think the people who. have a lot are afraid of not having. enough. And it's not rational, right? But. we fear the other, too. And so it's hard to give to people that. you think you should be afraid of. because you can't connect with them. We're all human. We're so alike. I don't. care about skin color or how we pray or.

who how we love. We're all the same. What keeps us from seeing that is fear, right? I don't know you. You're. different. So I got to be afraid of you. and I can't I I have to make sure you. don't come into my space. And then we. live in a culture where. people with power pray on fear to get. more power. I'm going to make you all. afraid of each other. And then I can come in and rule it all,

right? I think fear is at the root of. that. I Shalae, deeply appreciate uh. your time, your energy, your presence, the. eloquence but also the the deep energy. you bring to conversations like these. and I'm definitely grateful for the. light you carry and I'm very deeply. appreciative for you sharing it on On. Purpose and I hope this will be the. first of many conversations together. So. thank you again. Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll talk again. Absolutely. Thank you. If you loved this episode,

you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life. by changing your brain. If we want a. healthy mind, it actually starts with a. healthy brain. You know, I've had the. blessing or the curse to scan over a. thousand convicted felons and over a. hundred murderers, and their brains are. very damaged.