Macklemore ON: How To OVERCOME ADDICTION & Master Your Darkness For SUCCESS | Jay Shetty

I believe that what's supposed to be. will be and when I can get in that place. of acceptance that regardless of what. happens with Maniac or the next single. or my album and how many first week. sales it does and YouTube numbers all of. that is not happiness it is completely. the best-selling author and host the. number one Health and Wellness podcast. on purpose with Jay Shetty. hey everyone welcome back to on purpose. the number one Health podcast in the. world thank you so much for coming back. every week to become happier healthier.

and more healed something that I'm. always working on for myself and one of. the things I love about this community. that we've built here is I love talking. to people who are using their platforms. for a greater purpose who Find autistic. and creative ways to talk about the. things we care about here whether that's. mental health personal growth addiction. personal challenges that we go through. internally and externally and today's. guest is someone who has used their. platform through and through to talk.

about really important interesting. fascinating topics I'm talking about. multi-platinum and Grammy award-winning. artist Macklemore who's made history. with a combination of Commercial Success. critical Acclaim and international. appeal with a total of 12.8 billion. combined streams today and Macklemore is. one of the most successful Independent. Artists of the 21st century and he's. consistently used his art and platform. to raise awareness around issues of. addiction and recovery and now the two.

new singles are out chant and Maniac. make sure you go and stream and listen. uh Macklemore Ben you could tell me how. how you want me to go. Ben thank you so much uh for making the. trip to be here thank you so much for. this opportunity for having me man yeah. fantastic amazing let's get an intro one. take oh yeah well we have to cut it down. I mean there was so many achievements I. was like I need to get back you know. everyone knows you are right I grew up. listening to music when I was back in. London and so for me to be sitting with.

you today is awesome and and you'll see. that for a few of the questions I'll ask. but I wanted to pick out I love this. lyric here that I wanted to share with. you it's obviously one of yours uh and I. wanted to start with this your new song. chant says they told me that I vanished. they told me that I had it they told me. that I'm gone I told him don't panic. yeah and when I was listening to that. there's a lot of what they're thinking. about where you are right and my.

question was where do you feel you are. today oh. let's just get into it okay you said you. like to get in yeah absolutely. you know I think there is a constant. narrative when you're in the public eye. there's a constant narrative about who. you are and that ranges between people. that love you people that hate you. people that you know have maybe heard a. song or two. and what I like to get back to is.

cutting out the noise. of any sort of outside influence in. terms of who I am as a person that when. you put yourself out there when you put. out art in any capacity can I do it in a. way where regardless of its success or. lack thereof or critical Acclaim or. Nothing at All. I know who I am and I think that that is. the most important part about being an.

artist because it's very easy to start. looking and I was actually I was I was. listening to something that you said. and you can correct me because I will be. wrong but about seeing yourself through. how you think other people see you and. how how false that is and we get this. very precious light this finite amount. of time on this Earth and we waste it. wondering what other people think of us. and also inheriting how we how we.

believe that they might be seeing and. it's a waste of time and I got to a. point years ago and granted this is a. daily process to like completely shed. this so I I have by no means arrived but. I stopped reading what people were. writing I stopped reading reviews and I. make art because I love it and when you. do that and you come from a pure genuine. place that is where happiness lies and. fulfillment lies in the creative process. so that's what I'm getting to with those.

lyrics the chant is just getting back to. the core of who I am as a person as a. and as an artist regardless of the. outside yeah I love that and I love what. you're saying about how it's a daily. practice it's something we have to. recommit to that ritual of getting back. there and blocking out the noise I. wonder when was the first time you felt. you lost that did you feel you had that. and then you started to lose that as. certain point or was it something that. you've always been able to like grasp on.

to even when it's been tough I think. that at the height of our success. and I look back to coming off of. um you know number one Thrift Shop was. number one Can't Hold This was number. one. all of a sudden this music that you feel. like is yours becomes the world and it. becomes open you know to public. interpretation I think I lost it then I. think that. um there was a point where it wasn't. just a relapse anymore I went back into.

active addiction around that time period. I didn't know how to maneuver the. success I had been an underground rapper. forever. and as long as like that like you know. my entire career was just like this and. then all of a sudden there was this. Skyrocket moment and when that Skyrocket. moment happened. and you're at the mercy of the critics. and the think pieces and like the people. that are out there just to write. scathing reviews or whatever I lost it.

and when and I compounded that by then. turning to to drugs to escape it right. like there's no escaping that there's. figuring out healthy ways to to cope or. even better to heal or to just you know. tune it out but I tried to put drugs on. top of that to escape which made it that. much worse and for me. um you know with my history of addiction. it is a progressive disease so I'm I'm. putting drugs on top of it and I turn to.

a place of fear and I think that that. fear really. was a paralyzing force in that time. period where I was scared. I didn't know how to deal with the. outside world yeah so around that time. kind of and it's crazy because it. happened at the height of the success. right so I had on one side all these you. know Awards and acclaim and millions of. people and millions of dollars and all.

this money and and all these things that. in is society's eyes that's what you're. working towards and on the other side I. had completely lost track of who I was. and the things that actually really. mattered and when when did drugs first. come into your life like when was your. first connection with that because you. talk about your history of addiction. right but I'm intrigued by that I I feel. like we always talk and I do want to. talk about recovery but I feel like it's. really interesting watching like when we.

as young people or as adults get. involved with anything of this sort to. then go back the other way so when was. your first kind of foray into that space. the first time that I ever drank alcohol. and I consider alcohol a drug I was 14. years old and my parents drank and I had. a liquor cabinet in my house above the. fridge and I went into that liquor. cabinet and I took one shot of vodka I. was 14 years old. and I had on my undershirt I had Tupac. in the background I poured one shot I.

took the shot and uh and I was like oh. my God I love the way that I feel right. now like I finally am turning this off. I took two more I wonder what three. feels like another one wonder what four. I ended up I probably weighed 130 pounds. and I took 12 shots of vodka in maybe a. 30 minute time period and um you know. ended up stumbling I got on the bus to. go downtown Seattle I ended up throwing.

up all over myself in a McDonald's the. cops came I had to run from the cops. that was the beginning of my drinking. career which turned out to be a very. painful one. um in the moment and in hindsight and. yeah you know drugs came along with that. marijuana and you know. some pills and a bunch of other things. but you know that was the beginning of. um a very unhealthy relationship from.

the very jump and for different people. it's different things like for some. people it's confidence for some people. it's. sounds like numbing the noise like. switching this off you said was was that. the goal was that the intention like. where where was that coming from and. where did it escalate to like what was. the the reasoning behind it for you the. easiest way for me to describe it is. that it was like an allergy. it was. once I had. a sip or a hit or a sniff or whatever it.

was I wanted more and I couldn't turn. that off and I never could it was like. from the very first time I didn't take. two shots and say you know what I don't. want to get busted by my parents like. I'm done this was like I took one and. and went to 12 in a really short period. of time and the longer that I've been in. recovery and examining my own life and. maybe what led me to that point because. I mean maybe you know it I don't know.

what the science is in terms of genetics. or being predisposed I had some things. that um happened at an early age that I. think I wanted to turn off and it wasn't. until. relatively recently. that I've kind of examined those and. seen other men in the recovery Community. open up about sexual Trauma from an. early age and be open and willing to.

talk about things that happen to them. things that like definitely growing up I. never heard about and up until. relatively recently finding a community. of men in recovery I never heard people. talk about openly in meetings so I'm. like maybe that was the reason why I. don't know exactly yeah yeah no that's. that's fair I mean I think it's always a. collection of things rather than it. being one thing but when you're talking. about recovery now and you know. congratulations on just you know an. incredible journey to recovery when it.

was at its lowest plane which sounds. like it was when you were at your. highest point externally you're at your. lowest point internally and it's it's. actually not as surprising like that. happens so often right like you hear. that so often that people had their best. moments accidentally in their way. moments internally what was it that did. give you reassurance or redirection to. say I want to find a way out because I. can imagine that's so dark and anyone. who's listening and watching maybe they.

have a family member who's in that. position or maybe they have a loved one. or maybe they're in that position. themselves and they're listening to us. right now and they're like but it is so. dark it is so hard it is such a strong. addiction that it always looks easy on. the other side from the outside but the. person who's been through it knows what. it's taken right what was it at that low. point that dark point that you said no I. I see another side to this. life and death. what do I choose.

it came down to that and I knew the. truth I had been lucky enough that I had. already been to rehab. I had already understood that this is. the disease of addiction this is an. uncurable disease this is something that. I don't graduate from this is something. that I don't go into remission like this. will be with me forever and as a daily. uh reprieve and a daily practice what am. I doing for my recovery I went back to.

the origin the roots of what wrote the. music that ended up being the heist that. ended up getting all the awards and all. the love and all of that I went back to. that place of okay where were you when. you felt fulfilled and what did you have. and I had a home group where I where I. went and I had a service position and I. made coffee for a bunch of other. alcoholics and addicts and on Tuesdays. in order for the meeting to happen I.

needed to show up an hour early and put. out the chairs in the meeting and I. needed to make the coffee and the coffee. was trash it was horrible but I needed. to do it and I had that accountability I. had that sense of community I didn't. feel alone I felt something that I think. all human beings want which is to feel a. part of. and the disease of addiction leads you. to isolation at least for for a lot of. us. um you know right before I went to.

treatment I would you know the only. person I would pick up the phone for a. call was the drug dealer the the blinds. were drawn I was in a super dark place. now granted after the height of of. everything I couldn't hide I couldn't. hide from the world I had a full. calendar I just wore sunglasses inside. and kept going. um but I remember my wife and I and it. was after the Grammys and my wife and I. we went to India and.

um you know I was actually detoxing from. from drugs during the Grammys like I was. like you know maybe three or four days. off of opiates and definitely was not. out of my system whatsoever so that. place of fear was very still there I. never talked about this before and I. remember winning the four Grammys. and at the after party. got a pill from somebody again at the. after party and that was the beginning. of another attempt to escape everything.

that was happening my wife and I went to. India and I and I really detoxed and. realized that I needed to find my. community again. that all of this other. external. pats on the back all these strangers all. these people that are are with you for. the for the moment but they don't really. know me I need to find the people that. really know me that really love me and. the people that share this commonality.

of the disease of addiction because. those are the people that speak my same. language That Make Me Feel Again a part. of and not distant and disconnected and. why India What specifically about India. I'm fascinated it's my favorite place on. Earth there's something about this. spiritual undertone it's not even really. undertone you can just feel it. energetically moving throughout India. um you know we were we were traveling. around from from Varanasi to dharmasala.

to you know Delhi to all over wow and um. no one knew who I was no one cared. I was back to just being Ben and there. was something so simple about that in. that moment and I think that you you. travel throughout India and you see. extreme extreme poverty and people that. are. um still. happy and fulfilled in that and you.

realize that to actually be fulfilled. and happy in this world all what we have. been taught in the western world that we. need these benchmarks in terms of. success and square footage of a house. and what type of car all of these things. do not lead to happiness and I was. reminded of all of that and I just I. just love this I just love India that's. amazing was that your first time there. or you no I've been there before yeah oh. wow that's incredible yeah obviously I. I've spent so much time in India and. that's been such a I feel the same way.

as you do about it in the sense of it's. It's spiritual energy that's just. emanating right constantly yes and I I. find it's even easier to develop. spiritual practices there and habits. there and and things like that what have. become some of the. habits or practices or rituals that you. feel you've formed that have aided this. process of recovery Community seems to. be a big one of them you keep referring. to being around those people. reconnecting with who you were before. what what are some other things that.

you've really worked on that you think. of being pillars of supporting you at. this time I think service is a massive. pillar in terms of getting outside of. self you know it talks about in in some. of the literature that I that I work. from the disease of addiction is rooted. in in self-centeredness and in order to. get outside of self the quickest way to. do that is to think about other people. it's like the the thing that's under all. of our noses it's right there in plain.

sight and yet we keep going on our this. journey of like what do I want right now. how can I serve myself what are my needs. what are my immediate family's needs but. to really actually you know to find like. connection with other people it is to. serve and that's something in the. recovery community that is one of the. you know pillars wow that's a massive. part of it and it's looking inward it's. doing the step work it is uh figuring. out my Character defects really. stripping down figuring out who I am and.

how can I improve and there's so much. work to be done you know I mean and I'm. at a very I've been in and out of the. rooms of recovery for 14 years now. and I relapsed at the beginning of coven. so I have a couple years but I still. feel like a newcomer I still feel like. this is brand new and um I'm just on the. precipice of figuring out something. that's uh gonna open a new door yeah.

service is such a. underestimated habit and ritual and. hearing you speak about it in that way. is. so life-giving because I think it's one. of those things as you said we've just. completely taken out of society it. doesn't really exist in our vocabulary. it doesn't really exist in our. recommendation to people or as an. antidote to anything but as you're. saying in in the recovery Community it. seems to be a big pillar and a big part.

of that. do you do you remember an opportunity. where you got to serve or something. where you tried to do something like. that where you felt the benefits that. you just described was there a. particular example I mean I don't know. if there's a particular one that sticks. out but I think even to piggyback off. what you were just saying in terms of. society even with this culture of like. okay now we are working on our mental. health now I'm in therapy now I'm you. know eating healthy now I'm working out. now I'm doing Bikram Yoga like whatever.

like all of those things are fantastic. right like those are all great things of. of the self-care model that we have now. but they can still without the balance. of service you're still thinking about. me me me me right like what do I need. right now how how can I get my life you. know I need to talk about my trauma and. all of that and that's again. fantastic it's still easy to be thinking. about self in all of those practices and.

can you actually have all of that in. that still balance am I thinking and. showing up for other people and that can. be as simple as you know picking up a. phone call that you feel like you're too. busy to take that can be as easy as. listening to to a story of someone. um when you feel like you know you're. running and gunning and you're trying to. keep up with everything in life and just. slowing down and showing up for for. others when you don't want to that's the.

thing is like because services. in a way there's still a selfish. component of service because you are. still. you know this feels good there's. something that feels good about it but. you're actually you know benefiting. others at the same time yeah and it's so. counter-intuitive right like we. constantly feel like we have to focus on. ourselves to solve things but the. study's actually back up what you're. saying as well there's so many studies. on depression that show that even people. who are depressed who support other.

people are going through depression are. happier than those who are not. supporting that community and so right. even about supporting that same. Community makes such a huge difference. and I I know that for sure in my own. life that that was the Insight that. saved me too was because for me the. change happened that I worked harder on. myself in order to serve people better. so what you're saying by the balance it. was like the more I try to serve others. the more I realized that I needed to be.

purified yeah that's real and so then I. worked on my purification in cleansing. so that I could yes try and give back. better and again this is a daily process. I haven't arrived either but that cycle. became a really beautiful cycle where. it's like let me work on myself so I can. give my best to others yes now that I've. given my best I need to refuel and then. that becomes this beautiful Journey that. you go on as a human and I feel like for. me I'm I'm there today too where I'm. trying to pour out. into people and then I'm trying to pour.

in so that I have more Purity to pour. out that's a really good observation and. I think that. yeah it is a cycle it's a constant you. know evolution of like oh my god I've. been giving so much like now I need to. refill the tank you know the spiritual. tanker or whatever it is. um that that does get depleted and that. there is this balance that needs to be. found it's much easier said than done. yeah of course absolutely how have your.

lyrics and music changed at that time. because I feel like you know a lot of. musicians feel they often write their. best stuff in the worst times in the. darkest times because it's raw it's real. like you can connect to people's. emotions and people also feel that way. so they can see themselves in your music. right how have you felt as You observe. your music evolving and with the two new. singles like. has that has that impacted the music or. do you feel you're writing from a place. of always working on yourself and that's.

what connects with people I think that. I'm always working on myself you know I. was you know just in the coffee shop an. hour hour and a half ago and I get the. coffee and I go to the bathroom and I'm. like you know I just felt this wave of. depression and I'm like huh like where. where is that coming from I didn't find. an answer the darkness is always there I. don't have clinical depression by any. means I'm you know someone that I would. like to think is like relatively happy. but I do go through lows I'm a human I'm.

going through this this spiritual. experience in this human form but I I. felt this wave and I was like I wonder. if if Jay ever feels this wave of. depression which I do want to hear if. you do but like but I also had this this. thought of like you know this is what. creates art right if we were always just. like this or if it was just kept going. up and it just got better and better. until we died and then we're out here uh. it wouldn't be interesting like I need.

to feel those you know moments of. elation and translate that to music I. need to feel those moments of of. Darkness uh you know sometimes it's. self-inflicted sometimes it's just that. way that you don't know where it's. coming from but it's like this blanket. of Darkness over you and you're like man. I gotta fight through this right now. um but it all makes great music yeah it. all makes great art if you Channel it. yeah but do you feel that yeah I think I. I want to answer your question there's. some things I could relate to when I was.

in my teens and I first started hearing. about depression and that time it wasn't. the norm to talk about those things like. today as you said we're we're trying to. talk more about these things but when I. was in my teens when I first had someone. was depressed in my head I was like how. can you be depressed you have everything. like that was I was one of those people. who looked at a friend who seemed like. they had it all together and couldn't. fathom or understand. how they could be depressed right it's. like you make good money well you know. you you have a good situation you know.

you're a good looking dude like what's. what's your you get women like right I. had that very basic view as a teenager. and then I felt it for the first time. when I left the monastery so I lived as. a monk for three years majority of it in. India and when I left that's the first. time I felt depressed and I was around. 25 going on 26 and that was the first. time it hit me in my entire life and. that was because I had a plan and I had.

a direction I was going in and it didn't. work out yeah and all of a sudden I had. I wouldn't even say a wave I would say a. very strong sense of depression and I. didn't even let myself admit it to. myself at the time because I was so. scared about what would happen if I. admitted it and so if you asked me. during that time I would have said I'm. fine and it was only years later that I. was able to locate and say actually I. was depressed during that time I just. was scared to even say it out loud. because I didn't know who to say it to.

and it was then where my monk skills and. tools that I'd learned actually came to. help me. and give me that direction now today. that was. that was nearly 10 years ago since I. left so it's been a long time and I'd. say today that. I get sad thoughts I get depressive. thoughts but it's two things one is they. don't last as long anymore because I. found a process and tools of what to do. with them and the second thing is I see.

them as useful yeah as you said as. insight into what can be changed. transformed grown what work needs to. happen right so now they're not things. they're trying to avoid or things I'm. saying are bad or labeling them as. negative I accept that as a human you. will always have thoughts but it's your. choice what you want to do with them and. I've now learned skills and tools that. allow me to process them differently. than I would have 10 years ago right and. so it's not that you will never I don't. think there's anyone on the in the world.

who could never have a negative thought. or a tough thought or a difficult. thought. because the world is put in such a way. that there's constantly conflict there's. constantly uncertainty right. so unless you're numb from it all. there's going to be something that gets. beneath your skin or something that gets. into you but it's what you do with that. it's kind of like saying. wishing for a day where it stops raining. and stops being cold it's like that's. never going to happen the weather's.

gonna be the weather yeah it's gonna. rain it's gonna get cold it's gonna snow. and you either have your umbrella and. your snow boots ready to go or you're. going to be cold and wet yeah and so I. think for me it's like I'm focusing on. what's my umbrella what's my snow boots. what's my raincoat you know what are. those tools and habits and practices. that help me through that does that make. sense 100 yeah I love it yeah I'd be. lying if I said I don't have sad. thoughts or and I think we have to get. out of that because I think we all deep.

down believe. that we will one day get to a place. where you don't feel that way and that. kind of I feel stops us from getting. there I don't know if you've ever sensed. that yeah I you kind of think about. getting over something we both talked a. lot about getting through stuff yes and. with it but I feel like in society we. have this idea of you you're an addict. and now you've recovered right and you. said I'm in recovery and yes I'm. guessing that's language that lost yes. completely yeah it's interesting you. said that because I the first time that.

I went to India I was 19 years old and I. did a three days silent meditation and. on the third day I remember like I. couldn't meditate I never had really. meditated I'm trying to calm the Mind. follow the breath I have no idea what. I'm doing and my business is never going. to work for me on the third day. I was like up in the hills I was looking. out over you know a mountainous terrain. and you know I'm watching the trees and.

I'm closing my eyes and and the trees. are still and you know I'm seeing it. through my eyelids and the the breeze. came through and I had this moment of. meditation where I I didn't have any. thoughts you know or whatever version. that was I thought that I was having. this experience and. um. and I felt this wave of just like this. warm peace this sustained whether it was. three or ten seconds or whatever and.

um. it was this contentment that I don't. know that I'd ever really felt. and it was interrupted with the. thought of. but you're gonna lose this but you're. gonna go back. and I think that there was a that part. of that was like but you're gonna go. back to drugs but you're gonna go back. to depression but you'll never be able. to sustain this. and part of I think what the compulsion. around using for me is is like you know.

you get that moment of ah you know like. I've turned off the thoughts or like you. know the the drink hits or the drug hits. and now I'm you know equanimous in my in. my you know being and you know I feel. I'm high. I I like the effects of this drug and um. and then you go down and then you're. trying to find that high again when. really for me what I've experienced is. the most sustained period of happiness. that can be achieved is through a.

practice of clearing the mind. um now do I meditate presently not at. all not at all as I'm saying all this. I'm like bro why why aren't you. meditating man you got to get back. um but yeah I just you know I I remember. that feeling of peace and and. immediately being like but you're not. going to be able to hold on to this it's. a lack of a practice Yeah and and that's. that challenge right it's like. constantly wanting to hold on to. anything yeah and constantly want to go.

back to anything both of those thoughts. I think is what I'm referring to and it. seems like we're aligned it's that. yeah I feel like those are the two. thoughts that actually keep us the most. trashed completely so I want to hold on. to this and I want to go back to that. and those two things keep you trapped. for forever and ever and ever because. now you can't experience and you can't. present and you can't be yeah and and it. takes you everywhere and you know. towards more the beginning you were. talking about you're like you know life.

and death like that's you you've had. near-death experiences yeah and. that's. one of the most challenging emotions and. obviously no one ever wants to go back. to feeling that way. talk us through that of having a. near-death experience and how that. impacts you when you reflect on. something like that the near-death. experiences they're not linear in terms. of the. um you know I kept going down down down. it was rock bottom and then I almost.

died it wasn't that necessarily you know. it can you know just be like. yes I wasn't in a great place I was in. active addiction and I use this drug and. that drug and I ended up in the hospital. and my heart was beating out of my chest. that type of thing but I think. of. this moment where. um I was withdrawing off of Oxycontin I. was just crying. I was crying I was in the middle of the.

street it was summertime in Seattle. which is like the most beautiful place. in the world I'm biased but it was the. most it's the most beautiful place in. the world in the summer time and I'm. there and I can't stop crying and I see. no future for happiness. all my serotonin was completely depleted. I was 100. reliant on this drug for any sort of. crane to pull me out of a place of.

wanting to die and I think that these. near-death experiences yes I have had. actual like you know you were close. moments. um and you know ended up in the hospital. moments close to you know death but. even more scary than those. are those moments where you don't care. it can even go a step further than you. don't care it goes to a place of I don't. want to be here those are super super. scary in hindsight in the moment it's.

like. take me well yeah take me I'm not. fighting anymore I'm not fighting for. life anymore I I've I've gone down the. trail deep enough into the forest of. this that I am fine to just. leave this physical space that's scary. yeah it definitely is I I you're. reminding me of I had a conversation. with Dennis Rodman like three years ago. now on the podcast. and I asked him what his purpose in life.

was and he said to survive another day. like to live another day and to have. someone say that in front of you like in. an interview I was like it really took. me aback because you're not expecting. that Aid that much honesty but but in. that moment that much yeah you know. vulnerability as well and I know he's. surrounded by a good group of people who. are supporting him and helping him but. it was scary even to experience and you. know you've had your partner your wife.

who's been such a big part of your. journey you know you've spoken about her. music like she's been such a supporting. figure obviously she loves you that's. that's without a doubt and you love her. but what do you think has allowed her to. be a supportive and helpful partner. during this time. and how have you tried to help her help. you sometimes you may have got it wrong. sometimes you know but tell me a bit. about what she's done exceptionally well.

yeah and then when you've helped her. help you in an exceptional way but then. sometimes when maybe you haven't helped. the situation yeah oh it's a good. question you know my wife is is a is. amazing she's a big fan of of you she's. super excited she to come today all. right she's she's not here she's she's. directing a music video actually so. she's in the midst of planning for that. tell her I said my love I I definitely. I'll send a gift we'll have to send. something with you yeah she's she's a. massive fan so.

um it's cool to talk about her she's. um yeah she's my best friend she's. amazing she um I think first and. foremost you know I was in I was in. rehab in 2008. and I had been with her for you know. since 2006. so we're you know a couple years into a. relationship. and she was supposed to come up and. visit me in rehab and all the families. show up you know the the commencement of.

group therapy starts my at the time. girlfriend wasn't there and she had. ended up getting arrested on the way up. she was still drunk from the night. before after that she never went to. treatment. she did some some 12-step work but she. has never used sense and she was. definitely you know one of us like one. of me an addict and an alcoholic and. um never had that off switch but the way.

that she has shown up for me is that she. has stayed clean. and for herself first and foremost. foundational level and we just. celebrated last Friday her uh 14 years. of of sobriety and I got to watch her. take her take her coin go up to the. front of the meeting in front of you. know 100 people and take her coin and. she's all nervous and you know I have. tears in my eyes and I'm just like this. is my person I'm rooting for her more.

than anything. um to be clean and to be healthy and. it's something and she has done. something that I haven't been able to do. which is continuously stay clean and. um it's a complex question you know like. how do I help her help me the one thing. about the disease of addiction is that. it is Insidious and that when I am an. active addiction it starts before I. actually pick up the first drink or drug. it starts slowly and it creeps and it.

escalates and it starts telling me you. know what no one's around No One's Gonna. know you can do that all of a sudden I'm. in self-will I'm not in God's will. anymore I'm in self-will what do I want. and that selfishness Rises and Rises and. Rises and it can start with simple. things you know just like you deserve. that like go ahead buy that hmm omit. that these these little ways that it. just starts creeping creeping creeping. getting louder and for me all of a.

sudden it leads me to this place of none. of that works like material possession. to feel happy does not work for me you. know like go ahead get another watch go. ahead get that jacket get those shoes. you know do that have that experience. you deserve it it doesn't spiritually. fulfill me so now I'm like I'm on empty. in the spiritual tank and I'm reaching. for anything come on more more more how. do I fulfill how do I fill this void. this this God's eyes hole what how what.

do I do with this. and eventually I start to think. uh a drink or a drug sounds like the. best idea because I hate myself now. how can I help my wife help me in those. moments it's counterintuitive because. when I'm in active addiction and the. disease is talking to me I don't want to. tell anybody the disease is like don't. tell her. no she doesn't care you know the lies. the lies that I'm telling to myself in.

order to act out. are getting increasingly loud it's a. very you know I probably sound crazy. right now but it's um you're educating. that's how the disease works for me and. I think unless you have the disease and. maybe it sounds crazy but that's. actually the narrative that's slowly. happening whether I'm conscious or. unconscious in my head to get me to the. point of hating myself enough that a. drink or a drug sounds like the best. solution so. I have to tell her I have to be honest.

and she has seen enough relapses at this. point that she's like dude what are you. doing you're in self-will right now. where when was the last time that you. called your sponsor one of you got. outside of self when have you done. something in your recovery Community why. don't you go to a meeting she holds me. accountable even when I don't want to be. held accountable and usually I can tell. because she she'll say something and if. I'm naturally defensive. if I'm like no you don't know what I'm. doing you know.

usually I'm like okay she's got she's. got a pulse she knows me very well and. she's trying to help you dude like you. know if she says you know sometimes she. can miss misread the room. and I can completely hold that space and. listen to her and be like I I understand. that I could be doing better and these. these categories but I'm actually. feeling pretty good right now and I. welcome that from people in my life like. I think part of. addiction is that.

it's it has to be secret you know even. you talk about 10 years ago with like. you know this depression that you're. like I feel like I I had to be okay I. had to be fine I had to tell people I. was fine. and there's the secrecy with addiction. that we can't talk about it that when. those thoughts come in or in recovery. and I'm like I'm a person in recovery I. have to be like you know holding up. these pillars and now I'm a public. figure in recovery and I need to be it's. like dude I am still I am just like.

everyone else completely fallible and so. far from who I want to be yeah but the. more people that I can talk about that I. can talk to where I'm not a secret that. is when I share my truth. and it opens up a platform for other. people to or when they share their truth. all of a sudden I feel comfortable in. the space to tell mine yeah the disease. dissipates and by the way you don't in. your words don't sound crazy at all. actually I feel like you're educating us.

and enlightening us on what's going on. inside and so actually I'm learning a. lot and I appreciate it a lot because I. don't think we. we only watch these if it doesn't happen. to us you only watch it from the outside. right and you have no idea what the. dialogue in someone's mind is and so. hearing what dialogue you've had in your. mind right is massively Illuminating. because like you referred to mine I I. agree with that on so many levels and. that's that wasn't even addiction that.

was that was a form of depression that I. was experiencing and couldn't vocalize. it what to speak of something when. you're going through addiction yeah and. and I couldn't agree with you more that. whether it's something tiny or whether. it's something huge if we don't talk. about it you actually never learn like I. I had a very non-life-threatening. surgery recently like it's pretty. routine it's inconvenient but it's not. like you know it's not I'm not gonna. you know die from it like that's not.

what kind of surgery it is and me even. just telling some of my friends about. that I found out a quarter of my friends. have had that surgery but never told me. like no one ever talks about it and I. know it's not a big deal but the point. is that knowing that they'd had it and. knowing that they'd been through the. surgery and knowing that they'd. recovered or knowing where they'd had. struggles was useful yep what to speak. of addiction or something that's far. more detrimental to your health and. well-being yeah you know I can totally. understand why being able to share that. and and I really love the point you're. making about.

and and this is partly societal and. ourselves is you just explained a lot of. roles like I'm a public figure in. recovery I'm uh I'm uh this in this I'm. a music artist who was addicted whatever. so we we create all these titles and. roles and designations that are not the. real us and Society forces us to play. them and we force it there was a lyric. that I I love this is probably one of my. favorite songs that you've done I was.

talking to my uh I have a meditation. program that I've created for com and we. were just there recording before this. and so we I'm recording for like four. hours just teaching meditations and I. was speaking to my producer I'm really. good friends with his name is Ben too uh. saying that you were coming on the show. he loves rap too and so I was sharing. that you were coming on and we've then. started talking about some of our. favorite songs he was saying this one. was his and I was like oh me too it's a. light tunnels uh and and there was this. lyric that um that I thought was really.

powerful for what we're talking about. right now you say uh they want the. gossip they want the drama they want. Britney Spears to make out with Madonna. they want Kanye to run and go on longer. because that equates to more dollars. they want talking topics they want. trending topics you know etc etc and so. you know it's it's that idea that we're. trying to create Society is trying to. create these identities right for us and. then we kind of try and live up to those. identities how do you in this moment.

disconnect from that and go well. actually yes people may say I'm a public. figure going through recovery I'm a. music artist doing this how have you. found a way over time to not subscribe. to that identity and be like no I'm Ben. I'm you know who who are you today like. how do you create that disconnect things. that help my kids. getting off of social media. again not to be redundant but my my. community in recovery.

I think we're all trying to get back to. that place whether you're in the public. you know space or not it's. the idea of who am I really at the core. and. I've always used used art as a medium to. find out my own truth and to find out. who I am as a person but it's all the. things that we're kind of discussing. it's like and that you were talking. about in terms of service too like you.

know doing your own work and then. putting it back and then going back and. forth in this cycle I think it's getting. exercise I think it's clearing the mind. I think that it's um picking up the. phone I think that it's like I I think. it's these small little acts throughout. the course of a day that that you. realize that all of this is so fleeting. and then it that it's not real it's not. all of that world that's in light. tunnels that we're speaking about it's. as real as we make it and I think that.

it's really challenging to divorce. yourself from media when you are a part. of the media when you are a part of a a. topic or you know you can I could throw. out 10 celebrities names in like the. first you know you'll have thoughts and. judgments right away when you hear. someone's name. and we've put people we've. compartmentalized people we put them. into boxes we don't really get to know. who they are and I think that that's why. long-form podcasts or you know.

conversations are have helped to kind of. reshape how we view certain people. um and are actually really beneficial to. get to know individuals outside of uh a. headline now the unfortunate part is and. also for how short our attention spans. are. and now you know we you know five second. increments 15 second increments we're. scrolling we're moving on we can't.

retain information we're on to the next. it's really dope to see that like. long-form podcast there's a lane for. this where either it's super fast or. like I'm gonna listen to Joe Rogan for. three hours yeah you know what I mean. and like. and I think that that's because people. are longing for something. deeper they want to hear. conversation. they want to see the evolution of of.

dialogue start here and go here you know. like that is what actually is real we. are not. we we are not creatures that operate in. in three to five second increments. um there is a flow in an evolution and I. think that explaining who who we really. are you know our Character defects our. flaws our shortcomings to the things. that make us brilliant and unique. um. to really examine those yeah is is what.

this life really is all about yeah and. that the rest of it. um is something is a hurdle to get over. I I love that analysis of it I really do. because you said earlier you you said. we're Spiritual Beings having this Human. Experience. and I think a lot of people on their. spiritual Journeys or their inner. Journeys at one point you get caught. in the evolution of it where it's hard.

being a spiritual being having a human. experience like you're like how do I. make music. in this world but then not feel of this. world right like that becomes a really. tough thing and I've worked on that. personally I work on it personally I. work with so many people on it. personally and I find that the natural. human instinct is to retreat yes it's. like to remove ourselves and when I. became a monk I think subconsciously. that's exactly what I was doing where I.

wasn't escaping because I didn't have a. a bad experience with the material world. I could just see from other people's. experiences that the material world. wasn't satisfying to them yes I could. see people who were more successful than. me more wealthy than me more you know. everything than me I was 21 years old. and I could see that they weren't happy. and so I was like okay well I need to. figure out a different path and I gained. three years of getting time to figure. out what my values were and who I was.

and why I wanted to do anything. and then coming back like I find that. too today where it's like I'm not a monk. anymore I'm married I I have I have. businesses we have we we have money like. you know things like that. and it was like I had to make peace and. sense of those ideas for what they meant. to me and what their use was without. them defining me or me trying to. distance myself from them so I think.

when we first we Chase things yep and. then we run away from them until we. figure out how to use them properly yes. no it's on your Instagram today. and you know a massive way that we size. people up or that we gauge success is by. numbers right analytics and find our own. value right like how did this Tick Tock. do why did this one work in this one. didn't it yeah you know I really liked.

what I said in in this one and yeah and. no one really no one shared it yeah why. yeah I mean that's part of your business. yeah yet your platform is based around. like mental health which in a way our. society and and yet the way that you. talk about this is via Tick Tock via. Instagram via these social media things. that have got our societies stuck in. this place of comparison in this place. of of ego in this place of I am lesser.

than I am not enough look at all of. these other people's lives I am living. scrolling these death Scrolls that we do. I feel horrible about myself call. culture that is really addictive how do. you balance the game that you have to. play yet with the spiritual mental. health side that you have to live yeah. definitely it's such a great question. and. I'd say that so I started doing what I. do today offline when I was 18 years old.

so after I met the monk for the first. time which I talk about my book think. like a monk I I met my first monk. teacher at 18 years old and I started. spending time with him and whatever he. would teach me I would share it right. because I was so blown away by it so I. started a club or a society as we called. him in England uh a society in at. University at College called think out. loud and every single week I'd invite. students over and we'd sit and we'd.

dissect a movie and talk about it. philosophically psychologically. spiritually and I would facilitate these. sessions and when I first started them. like zero people showed up because it's. like people at 18 want to get drunk and. go to the club they don't want to come. to a society to think out loud yeah and. so then I started handing out posters. and flyers because I realized that I had. to do a bit of marketing to make sure. people were interested. and then people started coming and so by. the time I finished University we had. 100 people coming yeah and no one paid.

for it it was absolutely free I did it. because I loved it I did it because I. got the buzz of presenting what I was. learning to people and helping them and. I built some of my best friendships that. way because I met all these people at. University who were like oh yeah we we. Jay helps us understand the stuff he's. learning from the monks and the wisdom. same stuff I do today. and then when I went to the monastery. obviously I actually spent time studying. and deepening my meditation and actually. deepening my skills and since I've come. back I've done the same thing so I've.

been doing this offline when no one. cared and no one viewed and no one. watched and there were no followers and. there was no money for 10 years before I. did it online so up until six years ago. if you came to one of my events in. London called conscious Living 10 people. showed up once a month to hear me talk. about these same things that I talk. about today it sounds like my. underground rap career right yeah. exactly that's that's basically what it. is it's like and I did it for 10 years. not thinking one day it would be big I.

did it because I loved it I love this so. yeah I went from it yeah I loved it I. did it for 10 years with no money no. followers no nothing yeah and it was. amazing even when 10 people showed up I. was so grateful yeah so then when six. years ago this kind of took off and then. the last couple of years it's really. blown up. I live in gratitude every day and yes I. am massively aware of what connects with. people and what resonates with people. but my intentions different my intention. is How Deeply can I speak.

what I'm learning and what I've learned. so that it scales and gives access to. everyone so I'm not basing myself worth. on how many people like it I'm basing my. ability to simplify ideas on that and. that's just one part of me right my. self-worth is based on how I feel about. myself how my wife thinks about me. because she knows me really well right. how my monk teachers feel about what I. do and my best friends who've been my. best friends for like nearly 20 years.

like those are the people whose opinion. matters deeply to me my community here. matters to me but at the same time my. self-worth is not based on that my. ability to do my job well and the. purpose I've chosen is based on that and. I think like you're saying that isn't a. perfected formula it's a Daily. Commitment yes to can I improve my. ability to communicate but this isn't me. improving who I am this is me improving. my ability to communicate seemingly.

complexity ideas in a way that everyone. can understand and digest them but. that's just one percent of who I am. that's not that's not me an entirety if. that makes sense it does yeah do you. look at the numbers of course I do yeah. 100 I I think it's hard to do what I do. without looking at the numbers it's just. that the numbers don't dictate like I. won't go to sleep upset at myself as a. human being as a soul because of a. number going badly I will just be like.

there is a defect in my process of. communicating or effectively. transferring this message that I can. work on but if I think this is a problem. with me yeah that's too heavy and that's. where I think the disconnect is hey dude. you can always blame the algorithm yeah. I always blame the algorithm I don't. like doing that that's when in doubt I'm. one of those people that I will sit down. with people I'll be like the issue is. never well yeah very rarely is the issue.

actually the algorithm from my six years. of social media experience the issue is. your ability to understand. what is going on but again that's not. you and so and I think that's what we've. not learned how to differentiate our. album sales from our self-worth right or. our social media following from our. self-worth and identity so to me there. are two things this I need to improve. professionally but my professional. failure is not a personal failure and I.

think that I'm always grappling with. that again I have not arrived this is a. daily conversation in my yeah but I feel. healthier that I want to figure out how. to fix this for this but fixing that is. not fixing this these are two separate. like I meditate for me I don't meditate. to improve my career. and I don't focus on my career to. improve my feeling of me they're two. separate Lanes yeah if that makes sense. it does I see success and happiness and.

I want to come to this to ask you I see. success and happiness as two separate. Lanes yes happiness is what I do for. myself and success is what my career. brings and what it can achieve but I. don't cross the two because uh that's. when I think it gets messy for me and I. wanted to ask that like as you've gone. through so many highs and lows successes. and losses. how have you how do you define success. and happiness for yourself right now. like how do you look at those terms and. what do they mean to you now compared to.

what they meant to you like 10 15 years. ago right and I hope I'll answer you a. question yeah you did yeah beautifully. honestly it was just an honest answer. yeah yeah no I I think about success. very different. and I get caught up in The Matrix of. everything of course but am I fulfilled. happiness is fleeting right the more we. try to grab onto it the further it gets. um do I have sustained fulfillment do I.

have meaning do I have purpose do I have. a life that is worth living do I feel. excited to wake up most days am I. engaged with my kids all of those things. that to me is what success feels like. today now I also have a business I have. multiple businesses and I like to win. I'm a competitive person me too I get. that I do like to win now winning I. think is a is a tricky thing right.

because oftentimes we don't know what we. never know what's in store I might drive. away from here and you know crash down. the hill and that's it you you don't. know and I think about. you know what I want you know in the. last two singles that you've mentioned I. thought that they're really great pieces. of Art. thought that they were you know. had potential for like you know Chan. it's like it's got this endemic hook and. you know it's it's got a feature that. people know and I'm rapping really well.

and the beat gets really big. hasn't performed well. commercially Maniac sounds like. something that could be on the radio and. you know it kind of is but it's bubbling. slowly but it's not really streaming. well all these things I have a team of. people that are trying to figure out. that we're trying to figure out why this. worked why this didn't work and um I. realize that the universe is already. it's already been written I believe that. what's supposed to be will be and when I. can get in that place of acceptance that.

regardless of what happens with chance. regardless of what happens with Maniac. or the next single or my album and how. many first week sales it does on YouTube. numbers and if I grow my Tick Tock. audience all of that is not happiness it. is completely. separate and if I get too caught up in. that like you're saying if I get too. caught up in that world then I cannot. truly be fulfilled and have meaning in. my spiritual life which. is where the true like.

I'm just okay I'm just okay with what is. and I don't control it and some of the. most painful experiences where I was. like why is this happening to me like. God why would you do this to me were my. greatest blessings were the things that. opened up the door for something and it. sounds cliche it's like you know but you. have to go through those moments of pain. you have to walk through that fire to. get to that place of oh I had no idea.

why I was doing that and now I am here. and look at how beautiful this moment is. and I think that the trick is. um. remembering in those moments of of why. why is this happening that there is a. deeper reasoning and that this will pass. yeah totally yeah the way I was thinking. about what you were saying and well I. was sharing earlier and it's that. imagine you just bought a brand new car. you love it you think it's beautiful. it's great and you go driving and you.

sing when you drive out here and you're. driving your car. and then someone knocks into it and it. gets a dent and it's a really bad Dent. that means you can't drive it needs to. get fixed it needs to get sorted out now. when I get out of that car and I get. into bed that night. if I'm thinking I'm dented. that's just inaccurate the truth is. something I have something I care about. is dented and that needs to be fixed. right but I'm not dented because my. cause dented I'm not damaged because my. car is damaged my cause damage needs to.

go to the shop and needs to get fixed. but that doesn't damage me and I think. that's that disconnect where it's like. yeah like when you're saying like the. album sales isn't all right whatever it. is it's like yeah that needs to be fixed. that needs to be sorted out but that. doesn't mean that I'm broken that just. means that there is a system mechanism. which somehow how we're creating how. we're building that can be improved yeah. right and so to me and and I love the. point that you're saying that to me it's. also. an alignment of. how much we're creating and what we're. creating I find that when I make.

something out of alignment it's more. likely to fail. when I make something from a place of. I'm making this because I really believe. in it I care about it I've actually. focused on getting good at it and now. I'm putting it out there it has a better. chance of doing well yeah versus when I. put something out because I'm like I can. do this I know I can do this because I. have this and so I think when people are. like oh I have followers so I can do. this right but you don't really want to. do that you're just doing that because. you have followers and I think there's a.

study that shows how. after someone sells a company in the. next two years they make their worst. investment decisions why because now. they have money yeah so they make bad. investment decisions when you didn't. have money you made better investment. decisions because you were so careful. and so thoughtful about it yeah and so I. find like sometimes abundance leads to. stupidity because. abundance needs to be treated with love. and respect.

as opposed to with abandon and and. wastage yeah but you brought up a good. yeah yeah in terms of you know the 10. people that would come out in London. yeah to talk and what your intention was. and I think that. for all of us but particularly being in. in the public eye it's constantly moving. that needle back to what is my intention. here yes what is my intention yes and.

if you're in the studio and and or you. know I'm in the studio and I'm creating. a record if I'm going into it like this. is the one that's going to be on the. radio that song sucks yes thank you that. song is horrible yes no one wants to. hear that and the public is smarter than. we give the public credit for they can. tell when an artist doesn't know another. artist and they just made a song because. the labels were like you know what one. plus one equals three no it doesn't real. art is felt yes authentic people yeah.

that's that's what's contagious is when. people can actually feel and hear that. authenticity you can't manufacture that. and again but with all the noise with. all the white noise it's it's in the. periphery. if I'm not centered if I'm not. spiritually fit I am eventually going to. feel like guys we need a tick tock song. we need something that like is going to. be really catchy in a five second. increment and if we don't have that then.

I'm not going to be happy yeah and it. has been proven time and time again that. that's not how art Works yes and I think. that this fast food way of of of media. right now in some ways can be great but. in other ways it's it has my fear is. that it's killed the art it's it's. killed the overall Arc of an album or. the growth of an artist you know from. track number one to song number 15 I've. realized in this in this album cycle.

that I'm like in the beginning stages of. putting out we don't take in media like. that anymore like the album is almost. Obsolete and um I don't ever want to get. to a place of creating out of necessity. to appease an algae Rhythm or a. structure that I don't believe in yeah I. don't believe in it now that's going to. say I'm not going to play the game with. what I've created yeah but I don't want. to create. and then go play the game that is.

brilliant I I love that if the intention. in in The Vedas which is the the system. that I studied as a monk or The Vedic. tradition it said that there's four. motivators or four intentions which were. my intention so the lowest form of. intention is fear or insecurity we do. something out of fear so it's like I'm. not relevant anymore right let's make. something that makes me feel relevant. right that's fear that's not from a. place of art so you make something from. a place of fear it might do well it.

might blow up but you won't feel. satisfied because you know that you were. just scared and now you're scared to do. it again yeah so when you create a fear. it just creates more fears for new. creativity because you don't know how. you got there the higher up from that is. to have the intention of what you were. saying you have a Target or a goal but. you just plucked it out the air I want. that number one I want to build a. billion dollar company I wanna and now. it's just about this goal because the. goal makes you feel good you don't. actually feel good about what you're.

making but you like the idea of it might. become a number one Whatever billboard. or whatever it may be and so that's a. goal or Target higher than that. intention is you're doing something. because it feels true to you and then. higher than that is you're making. something out of service. or to improve people's lives or to. impact people so when you look at those. four intentions what I'm hearing is. you're like I want to try and make. things in those top two intentions yes. and that way I'll be fulfilled and like.

you said we can play the game with those. things too we'll still figure out a way. to make those things relevant and. important but we know that the art is. sacred the art wasn't sold out and I. think that's what I Vibe with too like I. I can totally get behind that because. I always connect back to why I started. and what connected and I love the joy of. making something sacred go viral I get. so much of a kick out of that rather. than making something sell out go viral. because it would go viral anyway yeah. that's great dude like no you're.

inspiring this this is well I mean you. think about whenever I'm in the studio. you're trying to get to those top two. and. and it's almost an exercise. when I'm in front of the page. to work through those bottom two layers. because they're there they're not always. there but they can pop up you know that. like can you do it again and then you. said it like okay now you did it you're. still not fulfilled can you hold on to.

it and you watch people their entire. careers trying to hold on to that. relevancy yeah and it's just this game. of like come on can we hold on to this. thing that's like you know so we can be. putting this Echelon and keep working. and keep going and never take more than. a you know 14 months off of an album. cycle we got to keep going what award. show are we showing it's exhausting it. is exhausting and I couldn't keep up. with it and I realized that it really.

um you know in the first couple months. of being like really famous that this. was not sustainable for me that I needed. to recharge that I needed to take take. time off to work on myself so when I go. into the studio I'm not operating out of. that place of fear of scarcity of you. know what if this doesn't happen it's. like dude. and I think that that's easier said than. done when you had the success right when. you're like you know what I'm gonna be. good for Life yeah financially I'm. straight.

just be honest I'm gonna be okay but. when you're you know when you're really. you know I'm trying to feed my family. and I've been there too you know I'm. trying to you know make sure that I. don't overdraft that I'm that I you know. can pay this month's rent with my six. people I'm living with and you know I. need to get this show so there's there's. a privilege in being able to like be. like okay well like now I'm just working. on the spiritual side of myself. um and there's an actual real side of it. you know in terms of the the physical. world of I need to eat yeah I need to be.

able to pay for this roof over my head. yeah but that's a great point but still. I'm almost writing in that space to to. get out the cobwebs of those first two. two layers. and get to a place of you know what bare. minimum this does nothing at least we. had a great time. in the studio at least I found out some. truth about myself at least this was an. exercise where I got better at my craft. and I enjoyed being creative and I got.

together with Community whoever was in. the studio and we made something that. will be around forever regardless of if. it's viral or if it's a number one or. top 100 it doesn't matter we made. something with pure intention and the. people that heard it were the people. that were supposed to and everything. else is outside of my control and if. you're a creative. then you just keep going yeah you just. keep going and I was like I was.

listening to some old music that I had. written in like you know 2004 or five or. something the other day and there's this. Dennis Hopper sample and he's talking. about. um you know if you're an artist if you. are really truly an artist. um your art is like breathing you have. no choice but to create that that is the. exercise. and I want to be that person I am that. person I don't have to try to be that. person I just I am an artist and for.

those of us that are there is no choice. the success is a bonus but at the end of. the day if I wasn't doing this for a. living sure I might have a different. nine to five. but I can almost guarantee you that when. I get home from work I'd be going right. back to writing raps yeah and that and. that's what it is it's that love it's. that dedication and I love the clarity. you gave though of when you're on the. come up versus when you've created a. platform because. I agree with you that sometimes fear and.

the goal of survival are actually what. gets you started and gets you going and. gets you your first breakthrough it's. just once you've had that please upgrade. yeah right because if you don't upgrade. at that point you're still driving in. gear too yep and it's like but no no you. were meant to get to gear five by now. and you're still going at gear two. and it's like that's what takes you down. the other way and so I agree with you I.

think you're right that I think it's. such a great clarification I'm so glad. you brought that up that sometimes fear. and the goal and the insecurity is what. gets you moving yeah and there's nothing. wrong with that it's just that it gets. you moving it's just not going to keep. momentum and. I've just seen too many people just stay. on that gear too. and and that's when you when it all. breaks down right so I I think that's. that's such a beautiful description. where where are you. today as you look to the Future as you. look to now as you look to to what.

you're building and creating for. yourself like what are the values that. govern your personal and professional. life today like what are some of the. values that you're developing working on. and and holding close to Your Heart. Right Now honesty. with myself with my partner. uh with my kids with my community I want. to be. transparent in all facets of where I'm.

at I think that vulnerability honesty. telling the truth are constantly things. that I come back to that just make my. life more streamlined I don't want to. hide anything I don't want this person. to know this part of me and this person. like I want to be someone that can hold. that space of this is who I am and. um and I'm honest about it I want to. have integrity in that sense I want to. keep delving into the layers of my own.

Character defects of things that I need. to work on of studying my past traumas. in order to figure out my next step and. to figure out where I'm at. um I want to I want to be a dad that. listens. that ask questions. that is there for the Beautiful Moments. the difficult ones that's super. important to me and I realize that with.

my lifestyle there's a frequency in our. house right like my wife is working on a. million things that have to do with all. of our creative projects I am there's. people in and out of my house all the. time and I think that that frequency my. kids I know they can feel it I know they. can feel the insanity of this creative. like you know home that we have that is. beautiful but it's also chaotic and I I. want to make sure that.

um I'm taking time for those small. moments that is much of like this Rat. Race that we're in to to do a media run. and to you know go from here to the next. thing to this and that I taking the time. to really be present with my kids. because it goes so quickly you know my. daughter's already you know my my eldest. is seven and a half and it's like seems. like it's so cliche it seems like. yesterday she was you know two months. old and um I know that that's how life.

moves and I just want to be someone that. like when I look back at it all through. all the ups the Downs the triumphs the. the shortcomings that I can look back on. it all and be like you know what. I left something. here on this Earth I was I made some art. that impacted the world and that doesn't. need to be on a broad big broad brush. stroke scale that can just be with a. couple individuals that I made some art.

that resonated that changed some lives. and not in a grandiose way but just like. the MCS that came before me underground. rappers that changed the way I think. about life that you know I think about. there's this there's this rapper that. passed. um from from the group Blackalicious his. name's Gift of Gab. and he passed last year and he had this. this era of of fantastic music and he. and he passed away I didn't know he was. sick and he passed away.

um during covid. and I remember just thinking like. I never got to tell him what his music. meant to me and the spiritual. um the spirituality in his writing and. how that resonated with me when I was 18. years old that led me to delve into. myself via the pen and. um. that if it wasn't for him. I might not have ever written other side. I might not have ever written same love.

that he actually gave me some tools that. opened up this conduit that I was able. to channel something bigger than myself. in these moments that led to music that. then impacted others and that that music. could go on to to transfer in different. ways to a Next Generation that is what. I'm seeking as a person and as an artist. and I think that that you know when. you've had that platform you know or you. have a platform like I have there's this. tendency to think that it has to be on.

this massive scale and I don't want to. think about my life in this big you know. open canvas of a world like I need to. you know there needs to be millions and. you know a billion people that know who. I am and lose what's right in front of. me which is my seven-year-old my. four-year-old and my 14 month old or my. wife and know that my family is there. and that's. at the very Forefront of what I care. about just as much as speaking to the.

rest of the world I don't want to miss. that man that's extremely powerful and. uh I love that reflection coming through. you right now and channeling all those. ideas with us uh we end every episode. with two. uh segments uh one's called the final. five which is uh every question has to. be answered in one word to one sentence. maximum so you have a sentence one word. two one sentence you get you get that uh. and then we'll do the other one so these. are your final five Ben uh the first.

question is what is the best advice. you've ever received. be. present. nice be present simple and easy that's. good advice that's that's always great. advice uh what's some of the worst. advice you've heard received or seen. repeated or advice you never want your. kids to receive advice you'd never want. them to hear I never want my kids to. believe that other people's opinion of. them. is any of their business I agree that's.

beautiful all right question number. three uh what is your current purpose in. life like how do you define your purpose. today and the work you do and who you. are my purpose is to create to explore. and to show up for other people uh. question number four if you could uh. what's something you used to value that. you don't value anymore I used to Value. superficial momentary escapism Fifth and. final question we ask this to every.

guest on the show if you could create. one law that everyone in the world had. to follow what would it be. that all people would have. empathy for one another. I need that and accept people for where. they're at Ben thank you so much thank. you I'm so grateful to have spent this. time with you today had the opportunity. to connect with you I mean we've been. talking for like nearly two hours it's. been amazing and uh thank you for being. so open so vulnerable so.

so giving and also just generating so. many interesting directions for this it. felt like a real conversation and back. and forth so I appreciate that a lot. absolutely thank you so much. thank you and uh everyone who's been. listening and watching whether you're. walking your dog whether you're cooking. whether you're uh on your way to work on. your way back from work or at work I. want you to share what you learned today. so please tag us both on Instagram on. tick tock on uh YouTube on whatever.

platform you use Twitter and just let us. know what were the insights that stuck. with you maybe there's a practice or an. idea that you're going to share with a. friend I love knowing what's gonna stay. with you from this conversation and of. course we hope that Ben will come back. on in the future and uh keep documenting. this journey with us absolutely you have. an open invite them whenever you want to. come back and uh so grateful for your. time likewise thank you if you love this. episode you'll really enjoy my episode. with Selena Gomez on befriending your.

inner critic and how to speak to. yourself with more compassion.