LOVE THERAPIST SHARES Why You're Single & CAN'T FIND LOVE | Lori Gottlieb & Jay Shetty

We all have a place of knowing inside of. us. And we sometimes it's almost like we. get lost and we can't find it because. we're so concerned about how people are. going to feel about the way we feel. So. you really got to. work through your stuff so that you can. meet the person that you're going to. have true authentic chemistry with and. not this kind of like chaotic chemistry. with. I'm really excited and grateful for. today's guest. I think this is going to.

be a conversation that I know a lot of. you have been looking forward to and I. know it's going to be a conversation. that's going to help you with wherever. you are in life right now. So please. please please welcome to the show the. one and only Lori Gottlieb. Now Lori. Gottlieb is a psychotherapist, a New. York Times best-selling author of Maybe. You Should Talk to Someone which is. being adapted as a television series. with Eva Longoria. In addition to her. clinical practice, she writes the. Atlantic's weekly Dear Therapist advice.

column and contributes regularly to the. New York Times and many other. publications. She's a member of the. advisory council for Bring Change to. Mind. Lori is a sought-after expert in. media such as the Today show, Good. Morning America, and NPR's Fresh Air. Her new Dear Therapist podcast produced. by Katie Couric and co-hosted with Guy. Winch helps listeners to see themselves. more clearly and debuts this spring. Make sure you check it out and subscribe.

in advance. I'm excited to learn more. about therapy, human relationships, and. more. Welcome to the show Lori and her. new book Maybe You Should Talk to. Someone. We will put the link to the. book into all the captions and comments. so make sure you go and grab a copy. Lori, thank you for being here. Well, thank you for having me. Now, this. is a real treat and as we were preparing. I I ran into how many mutual friends we. have or mutual people that we've crossed. paths with. So, I've interviewed Guy Oh, wow. uh uh a many, feels like many lifetimes.

ago, but when I was at HuffPost with. Arianna Huffington. And at the same. time, Eva Longoria is a really close. friend. So, it's just uh I feel like and. and then you know Jim and Amon. Yes. So, yes. all comes together, it's always uh. small world. Absolutely. Absolutely. But, um tell I. want to start somewhere where I'm not. sure, maybe you get asked it a lot or. not, but I'd love to start with tell me. about your latest adventure with your. son. Uh. My latest adventure with my son. Well, there are a lot of adventures because. he's 14. And uh he uh you know, he's a.

really interesting person at this age. I. think that when kids are younger, um you. have you have more of a There's more of. a hierarchy Mhm. in the family. Um and I. think all of a sudden they start. thinking in all of these complex ways, and they make you they hold up a mirror. to you and make you ask questions about. yourself and the world in a different. way. So, I would say our adventures are. conversations. Nice. And and it does. Does what you know about the human mind.

and connection and relationships, where. does it help and where does it hinder in. the parenting process? That's such a great question. You know, I think what it does is it gives me an. awareness of the importance of letting. kids letting people access their. feelings. So, so many times as parents. we get uncomfortable with a feeling that. our kids are having, and we try to talk. them out of their feelings. So, you. know, a kid says, "I'm angry about. that." And we say, "Really? You're so. sensitive.".

Or we say, you know, or or they say, "I'm sad." And we say, "Oh, you know, well, here's a balloon. You know, let's. go to Disneyland." Right? We try We try. to like sort of talk them out of it, or. "I'm scared." And we say, "Oh, don't be. scared. There's nothing to be scared. about. Be brave.". Um and I think what happens is then. people don't know how to access their. feelings cuz they were always talked out. of them. So, I think the the benefit, you know, the upside of being the child. of a therapist is that nothing gets. swept under the rug. You know, the. downside is that he'll be totally.

screwed up anyway because. you know, that's life. Yeah, and what. are what are the lasting effects of. that? I I what you're saying is spot-on, like we're always trying to negate or. neglect feelings and emotions that. people share with us. What are the. long-lasting effects of that? Well, I. think. in adulthood. Right. I think what. happens is that people try to get rid of. their feelings. They don't realize that. feelings are positive, that our feelings. are a compass, that they tell us they. give us information. If you're sad, why. are you sad? What needs to change? If. you're anxious, what is that telling you.

about what's not working in your life? Even envy, people are so afraid of envy, and I always say to people, follow your. envy, it tells you what you want. So, instead of sitting there and looking at. what everybody else has, say, what do I. want? How can this help me to take the. the small step that I need to take to do. something different so I can have what I. want. So, what happens is people will. minimize their feelings. Um you know, well, I have a roof over my head and. food on the table, so I shouldn't be. sad, I shouldn't be anxious, I shouldn't. feel the way that I feel. Um people will.

um try to numb out their feelings. So many people feel like um you know, numbness is is a way of you know, like. kind of managing their feelings. But, I. feel like numbness isn't nothingness. Numbness is um. it's not hap- it's not not having. feelings, it's being overwhelmed by too. many feelings. And your feelings don't go away just. because you push them down. And that's. the problem because our feelings will. come out in.

behaviors, in a short-temperedness, in. anxiety, in too much food or wine or. time on the internet. A colleague of. mine calls the internet, she said, it's. the most effective short-term. non-prescription painkiller out there. True. True. And and like every. non-prescription painkiller also has a. lot of side effects. Well, yeah. Yeah. Terrible ones. The problem is that if. you don't know what you feel, you. you don't know what your story is, right? And I think that our stories are.

are this way of making sense of our. lives. And so, what happens is I as a. therapist see people come in and they. tell me their story. And the the thing is their story, there's so many problems with the story. They're They're We're all unreliable. narrators, right? We're telling a story. in a particular way. But I think if we. don't know what we feel, we only see a. very narrow part of the story and it. limits us. Yeah, so true. So true. And And I feel. half the challenge is also that we've. just become so disconnected with knowing. how we feel about anything. So, I mean,

one of the things that really helps me. is I'm always thinking like after eating. a meal, Mhm. I know whether I like that cuisine. or not. Like it's very clear to me. After I watch a movie, I know whether I. like the movie or not. So, I often try. and apply that same. sense check with myself after I meet a. person, after I go to a place, after I. interact with an energy. Is that a good. habit? Is that a habit that you. recommend? Is that What are the easiest. ways to getting closer to our feelings. and actually understand how we feel. about something or someone? Well, I.

think the first thing is to is to notice. when you get afraid of a feeling. I. think it's almost like our fear of our. feelings is scarier than the feelings. themselves. Mhm. So, um you know, what happened is. somebody might feel something that they. feel like somebody else might not like. Um and so, they say, "Oh, I'm going to. adjust my feeling to please others, to. make sure that it's how I'm supposed to. feel about this.". And then they lose their sense of of. their place of knowing. We all have a. place of knowing inside of us.

And we sometimes it's almost like we get. lost and we can't find it because we're. so concerned about how people are going. to feel about the way we feel. Mhm. Absolutely. Yeah. And And And I find. like. a big part of that is also a survival. mechanism, right? Like it's a feeling of. like community or feeling of tribe where. we want to feel almost artificial. connection. because that feels safer than feeling. uncertain disconnection. Right. It's. It's for survival we have to connect. We. have to belong. You can't be alone. You.

will You will get eaten by, you know, wherever you are. So, you have to have. the tribe around you. But, the problem. is that it's not an authentic way of. having the tribe around you when you're. pretending to be something that you're. not. So, so many people in therapy for. instance, they they they come in and. they have a mask on. Um and they're so afraid of, you know, they want to entertain me. They want to. be liked by me. They're afraid that. they're boring. And I always say that if. you show me the truth of who you are, I. will be fascinated by you. Um no matter. what that truth is. But, if you're like,

"Look over here. Look over here. Look. over here.". I'm going to be so bored. I'm sitting. there going, "What is this person trying. to tell me? What is the significance of. what they're saying?" And they're what. they're really doing is trying to keep. me out. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it's. almost like. being like a magician who's is scared. away of giving their tricks and you're. trying to keep everyone entertained, but. then you never see that person beyond. that mask. Right. Right. tell tell me about. a time when you've given someone some.

advice where you actually realized that. you didn't feel it was the best advice. Like how does a therapist process that? Because I feel like in any profession, whether I'm I'm a coach and you know, you're a therapist, like when you're. giving advice, it's almost like there. are times when you're so certain about a. belief, you're so certain about value, and then I've looked back at stuff I've. said and just been like, "I was so. wrong." Have you ever felt that? How do. you reconcile that for you and the. person you've been working with? I think. it's really important for me to remember. that I might know what I would do in a.

certain situation, but that might not be. the best choice for them because I'm not. living their life. So, I have this word. taped up in my office. It's. ultracrepidarianism. And it means the habit of giving advice. or opinions outside of one's knowledge. or competence. I love it. And and and I think that that. applies to our friendships and our. romantic relationship, everything. Because you can't know what another. person should do. You can help them come. to a place of knowing for themselves. what they should do. So, I'm always. working to help people to figure out to.

get to that place of what should I do. and not ask the outside world. And not, you know, we crowdsource on the. internet. We do that like we ask the. internet. People will type in these. questions like, you know, "Husband is. cheating. What should I do?" And they. crowdsource that. And it will be. different for each person. Yeah, I. always feel that we have this extreme of. like when we're going through something. we'd ask everyone Yes. every opinion. Yes. Or we do the opposite where we ask. no one for nothing. Like you don't even. ask the experts or a therapist or. someone who can actually help you get.

closer to the answer. And and the reason we don't ask is. because of shame. Mhm. I think so many. times we keep these secrets from. ourselves, from other people because we. feel we have so much shame around the. fact that we're even struggling with. something. Mhm. Um you know, so many people keep secrets. from me as a therapist. And uh Carl Jung. called secrets psychic poison. And I think that's what they are. It's. like when we keep something and there's. a difference between, of course, privacy, which we all need to have, and. secrecy. Secrecy is about shame. Privacy. is like a healthy boundary. Wow, that's.

fascinating. Yeah. Secrecy is I can't. tell this to anybody. I get this I get. this so much. I see a difference too. between. the way men and women keep things to. themselves, right? So, so many men will. come in and they'll say, "I've never. told anyone this before." And then what. they tell me feels. like, really? That? That is your big secret? And I. feel so much compassion for them because. I feel like it's so sad that in our. culture we tell men, "You cannot be.

vulnerable. You cannot share this Um. because you will appear weak or you. know, whatever it is. It's not okay. Women will also come in and they'll say. I've never told anyone this before, but. then they'll say except for my mother, my sister and my best friend. So they're. told maybe one to three people, but for. them it feels like it's a secret and. they haven't told anyone. So I feel like you know, what is the. shame about? Why is it so hard when the. reality is that we're all going through.

similar things and we if we don't talk. about it, we don't know that. Absolutely. Yeah, and and I think that's. the saddest thing about all of that is. we feel like everyone's got it figured. out apart from us, right? It's It's not only that we feel. shame. It's like we feel like yeah, like. oh, she's got it all figured out. He's. got it figured out and that person in my. company has got it figured whatever it. is, but I'm the only one. Right. And then what happens is we have. this voice in our head that is so. self-critical, so unkind because we. don't get the feedback of oh, this is.

normal and everybody's going through it. And so we walk around I had this this. one therapy patient write down. everything that she said to herself over. the course of a few days and come back. and read it to me. And she comes back. and she has this sheet of paper and she. says, I can't read this. I'm such a. bully. And they were things like, you. know, are you going to eat that with. those thighs or you made a mistake, you're so stupid. Or you know, oh, look at all those. couples. I'll never find anyone. Yeah. And we don't realize that that that's. what's playing in our heads because we. don't reality check with other people.

that they're also struggling with some. of the same things. Yeah. And the thing. is self-flagellation. never enhances our growth. So people think I'm going to be tough on. myself and I'm going to hold myself. accountable and then I'm going to grow. and change. Uh-uh. Self-compassion. is how you grow and change and that. doesn't mean not holding yourself. responsible for things. What it means is that you can be. uh accountable. and you can also be compassionate and. that combination is going to help you. grow and change. Yeah, absolutely. And.

by the way, if anyone I'm just going to. throw out there if me or Lori look like. we're sweating, it's because we are. sitting in a sauna. Like we are in a. sauna right now. With no AC. With no AC. just for the benefit of this audio for. each and every single one of you. So in. case you see us sweat, it is the the. depth of the conversation, yes, but it. is also the fact that it is a sauna. And. it's only going to get worse. There will. be water. Just fair warning. But Lori, tell me about what first took. you into wanting to be a therapist.

because I feel like today. therapy is and and I mean of course I'm. only looking at it in the generation. that I'm in, but I'm seeing therapy. being a very growing need in the world. I'm seeing it as an industry that I. believe we need more qualified people to. serve people and and to help people and. support people. We're seeing the rise of. mental health. When you decided to be a therapist, what. was your calling to that and where did. you see its role at that time versus how. you've seen it evolve? So it's.

interesting because I came to the. therapy profession very late in life. Um. I never imagined that I would be a. therapist. Um I started off when I. graduated from college, I was working. doing film development and then I moved. over to NBC and I was doing um primetime. series development and this was a long. time ago. This was this was the year. that ER and Friends premiered. So this. is you know, 1994. Yeah, great shows. Um. great shows. Um but when I was working.

on ER, it was interesting because I. loved what I loved about working in TV. and film too was. telling these rich human stories. Um and. I felt like ER did that so well. I mean. nobody goes into an emergency room. because they they expected something to. happen, right? So So it's these. inflection points in life. Um and we had. a consultant on the show who was a real. ER doctor and I spent some time in the. ER with him, and he kept saying to me, "I think you like it better here than. you like your day job.". And he said, "You should go to medical. school." And I said, "Well, I'm not I'm.

not doing that. I was a French major. I'm not doing that." Um but, I went to. medical school. And I I I felt like in. medical school you saw the real stories. So, it wasn't the fictionalized versions. of them. It was It was real life. And. when I got there, it was like I went I. was up to at Stanford, and it was like. the the dot-com boom, the first one. before the bust. And everybody was. saying, "Oh, you know, there's this new. thing called managed care, and you're. not going to be able to spend time with. your patients in the way that you want. to." And I was really about you know,

had this idea of being the family doctor. who guides people through their lives, which of course leads to the therapy. thing, but I didn't realize that at the. time. Um and so, I I ultimately um I. started writing when I was there, and I. left to become a journalist, where I. felt like I could really spend time with. people, hear their stories, help them. tell their stories. And then later, uh when I had a baby, um. I was you know, it was one of those. things where I felt like I needed more. human contact during the day, adult.

contact during the day. And the UPS guy. would come with all the deliveries, and. and literally I would detain him and be. like, you know, "Hey, how about those. diapers?" And he would back away to his. big brown truck, and I thought, "Something is wrong here." He would At a. certain point he would like tiptoe to. the door, gently put the package down so. I could not engage him in conversation. Talking to strangers. And right. And so, I called up the dean at Stanford, and I. said, "Listen, maybe I should come back. and do psychiatry." And she said, "If. you do psychiatry, you'll probably be. prescribing Celexa in 15-minute. intervals. I know what you wanted to do.

Why don't you get a graduate degree in. clinical psychology and do the work, the. deep work that you want to do?" And. that's exactly what I did. So, I feel. like I went from telling people stories. to helping people change their stories. in the therapy room. I feel like my. writing background is so useful because. I'm almost like an editor in the therapy. room where people come in with these. faulty narratives and I help them to. rewrite them. One of the things I think. people feel when they come to therapy is. um you know, I really want to understand. who I am. And I feel like part of.

knowing who you are, part of getting to. know yourself is getting to unknow. yourself. It's to let go of those. limiting stories that you've been. telling yourself over and over. um so that you can live your life and. not that faulty narrative that you've. been telling yourself about your life. And that opens you up to so many more. possibilities. So sometimes what we. think we know about ourself isn't really. accurate. And that's the editing that we. do in the therapy room. Yeah, absolutely. You're so right. We need to. unknow and unlearn Yes.

so much more than we feel we need to. learn about ourselves and know about. ourselves. It's the uncovering. Uh in in. my book I talk about the analogy that's. given in in the spiritual text of a. dusty mirror. So it's like if you look into a mirror. and you look into it and you ask what am. I looking at? It's like all you see is. dust. And that's kind of like our. experience of who we are. Whereas when. you start wiping away the dust, it can. actually be a painful process in the. beginning because the dust comes in your. face and you cough a little bit and it. gets in your eyes. But then slowly you.

can see yourself. So it's that cleansing. away of all the layers of dust that. we've accumulated almost. Right. And. when you say it's hard, it is hard. And. I think sometimes people imagine that. they're going to come to therapy and. they're going to download the problem of. the week and then they're going to leave. and they don't have to do any work. Yeah, yeah. Um you know, and and you. actually do have to do some work. And. that's why I talk in the book about the. difference between idiot compassion and. wise compassion. love that. Yeah, tell us about it. So. idiot compassion is what our friends do. It's like, you know, someone breaks up. with you and you're like, "Oh, he was a. jerk." Even though we know that like.

this has happened the last three times. because there's certain ways you behave. in the relationship that lead to this. outcome. Or, you know, you didn't get. the promotion you wanted and we know why. that happened because it keeps happening. to you and we say, "Oh, your boss is. doesn't see your talent." when we really. know what's going on. But we don't want. to rock the boat and we think we're. being supportive, but it's not really. supportive. And so, you know, it's kind. of like if a fight breaks out in every. bar you're going to, it might be you. But we don't we don't say that. That's. idiot compassion, right? Wise compassion. is holding up that mirror, but the clear.

mirror, not the dusty mirror. And it's. holding up that mirror and saying, "I'm. going to help you to look at yourself in. a way that maybe you haven't been. willing or able to see.". And I think you're going to like what. you see because it's going to help you. navigate through the world in a much. smoother way. Yeah. And maybe you will have to make some. changes, which people you know, people. usually come into therapy and they're. like, "I want things to change." And. what they want to change is someone else. or something else. They don't realize. that they are going to have to make some. changes. Yeah. And I and I want to say like you're the.

protagonist in the story. You're going. to have to make some changes. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I. think we struggle with that is. I was talking about this with a friend. the other day. We're on a walk and we're. saying. she was being really vulnerable and. open. She's amazing. I know she listens. to the podcast. You know who you are. It's I won't say names. But it's. it's the feeling of we want people to be. honest with us, but we struggle to be. honest with people. Yeah. So, it's a. weird like. it's a weird circle because we it's like. me saying, "Lori, I want you to be.

really honest with me about how this. podcast is going." But then when my. friend asked me how their podcast is. going, I'm not telling them the truth. Yeah. expecting you to tell me the truth. Yeah. So, we almost become demanders of. the truth, but not givers of, and then. that continues that circle if that makes. sense. And so, how how do we actually. open ourselves up to create space for. friendships like that? Because I almost. think in the same way as you're saying, we're creating those scenarios in our. life again at work or in relationships, Yeah. we are inviting idiot compassion. into our life.

That's right. Because we're not ready for it almost, right? Right, we have to be able to hear it. I. see this so much with couples that I. see. So, a lot of times, um you know, somebody will say and I see this most. typically in like a heterosexual couple. where. uh the woman says to the man, "I want. you to be really vulnerable with me. I. want to understand your inner life. Want. you to open up to me.". And then he does and he starts crying. and she is frozen. You know, she's like, "Well, well, I you know, be careful what. you wish for, right? I I I didn't I. didn't mean like that.".

Right? Or if someone's like or if the. thing that they're being truthful about. is something about something going on. between the two of you. And people are so afraid to share that. So, maybe they'll be open about. something out there, but if it's like. there's something I want to talk to you. about us. And the person says, "Yeah, I want to. hear. I want you to be really open and. honest with me." Until you really say, "I notice this happens between us and. here's something about you.". And the person's like, "Whoa, I didn't. want to hear that." Right? So, we're so. uncomfortable with other people's truth.

You don't have to agree with somebody. else's. feelings, but you have to know that. their feelings are valid, which doesn't. mean that you have the same feelings. There's a distinction. It's almost like. the difference between. um when somebody really wants someone to. forgive them. And I always say like. there's a woman in the book, she wants. her adult children to forgive her for. what she had done. They're estranged. from her. They. And I said, "You know what? You can't. You're You're asking for something. called forced forgiveness." That That. people are not going to forgive you.

because it will make you feel better. And sometimes not forgiving is okay. It's okay if your children never forgive. you. Maybe they will have compassion for. you. Maybe they will see you as the. mother that they want now even though. you couldn't be that then. Um we have to. learn how to forgive ourselves. But so many times if someone says, "I'm. really upset about this." We say we want. to hear that. But we don't know how to. um how to let it in. How how be open to.

it. Yeah, and how do you in the. in the therapy room and in your life and. when you're advising people, people live or sometimes we assume that. people live very problem-driven lives. So, when they come and see you, they. feel they have to start with the. problem. Yeah. Or sometimes when you see a friend, you. feel like you have to share something. that's going wrong for there to be a. conversation. I feel like almost. problems and wrongs have become better. conversation starters or more I would. say more comfortable conversation. starters for people as opposed to.

something positive. Do you see that a. lot? Is that. Well, you know what's so interesting. I. think that we have this weird dichotomy. where. on the internet, everybody's posting all. the positive things. Um in person, everybody's sharing all. the negative things. Yeah. Um and so there's not that. balance. I I I think that a lot of the time we're. we're kind of uh using our friendships. to kind of download our problems, but. we're not actually listening. When I was. training, I was doing my internship, a. clinical supervisor said, "You have two.

ears and one mouth. There's a reason for. that ratio.". I think we don't know how to listen. And so sometimes uh we feel like when. someone's telling us something that we. need to problem-solve for them. Mhm. Um. we don't know just how to sit with them. and not fix it for them. And we don't. realize too that sometimes. we're helping them by helping them to. hear themselves more clearly. Yes. And. if we talk for them, if we talk over. them, they can't hear themselves. We're. talking over their internal voice.

That that that that last bit there at. the end that you just mentioned is so. powerful. We're talking over their. internal voice and actually simply. listening to them allows them to hear. themselves. Yes. And ah you're so right. I I feel. like my best conversations are. definitely when I I can find the. narrative just by being able to share. and share and share because most of the. time we share we we talk for 2 minutes. and the person giving the answer talks. for eight. And it's almost like, you know, and now. it's okay, now do I take that answer? They don't quite understand me and then,

right? It just kind of gets lost. So, how do we shift? Is talking about our. problems useful? With who is it useful? And and when is it useful? Yeah, I think you have to choose your. audience. I think so many times people. have had bad experiences. Let's say that. growing up they had bad experiences. And. so then they end up choosing someone who. will disappoint them. And then they say, "See? See what happens when I'm. vulnerable? See how that doesn't work?". Yeah. Um and and what happens is they. they don't realize that they're. repeating this pattern. One thing that.

therapy really does for people is it. helps them to see. you are making choices. that are are repeating they're helping. you to repeat a pattern that is making. you unhappy. That is keeping you stuck. And and people don't realize that. they're doing that. Um there's a woman. in the book who keeps hooking up with. the wrong guys, right? Um and including, by the way, one from the waiting room. I. don't mean in the waiting room, it's not. that exciting. But but she meets him in the waiting. room. And I know, because of her. pattern, that you know, this is going to. be a disaster. And she keeps saying,

"Oh, it's the guys. It's this person. It's that person." And she doesn't. realize that these people are so much. like the people she grew up around. Um and I don't mean that we're blaming. people's parents, because I think that. most parents. did their absolute best. You know, most. parents really want to be a good parent. But sometimes they didn't know how or. they were very limited or there was some. mental there was some mental health. issues or whatever it might be. And so. they couldn't give their kids that that. mirroring experience that you know, is.

something that they would want in an. adult relationship. And so with her, it. takes her so long to realize that when. she meets someone who is going to give. her what she wants, she's like, "Oh, I'm. not attracted. No chemistry." Right? It's almost like like she doesn't know. how to be around someone who will give. her what she wants. Mhm. And there's a there's a learning process. around, "Well, wait a minute. just. because something feels familiar. Um. like the person who disappoints you. doesn't mean it's right. You know, that. chemistry that she kept feeling was like. oh you feel familiar, come closer.

Yeah. It's like no. The fact that you feel. familiar should be a sign like let's try. something different. Let's go into this. place of unfamiliarity. and it will be uncomfortable because you. don't know the customs in this country. You haven't been to this country before. You're going to have to use your. guidebook and and learn your way around. a little bit. But why don't you see what. it's like over in that country? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What what is your take. on the elusive chemistry? When people talk about it when they're. partnerships and you know, the way I've.

always understood it is. I've always felt that when you look at. chemistry and compatibility, chemistry. is something that I can feel multiple. times a day with different people. Yep. I can feel it with the barista. I can. feel it with my personal trainer. I can. feel it with. someone I'm just taking the train home. with. Like chemistry is something I can. feel over and over again. Compatibility. is something I can't. It's not as easily. replaceable. It took longer to build and. it's something that I have with less. people in the world in general. Uh and and so for me I've I always look. at chemistry as that elusive thing. because I hear the same. My friends will.

come back from dates and be like Jay. like but there was no chemistry and I'm. like okay well so so tell me about that. and how you've tackled helping people. understand chemistry and and filter it. better. Yeah. So this is I I'm I love. that we're having this conversation. because this is such an important part. of relationship. So many times people. will say, you know, they went on a first. date with somebody and they're like. yeah, I know I had a really good time. but there was no chemistry. And I said. well, the having the really good time. might mean that there's potential for.

chemistry. Yes. Um but what they do is. because they're on the apps and they say. oh well, there's like 10,000 other. people that I can date um and they just. keep recycling and recycling and. recycling and they don't give something. time or space to grow. And chemistry sometimes happens right. away and other times it takes time to. grow. So. there are these surveys that were done. where where men and women were were. followed for 20 years from the moment. that they went on a first date through. marriages, divorces, you know, all these.

things. And what happened was a lot of. people have revised their stories. depending on what happened later. So the. people who are happily married, let's. say, a lot of them said, you know, "Well, tell us about the first date.". When they're telling it now, they say, "Oh, yeah, there was instant chemistry.". But what they reported at the time was, "Yeah, I don't know, maybe I'll go on a. second date. I don't know. There's not a. lot here." But it built and so their. story became there was instant. chemistry. Yeah. Right? Now, the people who were. divorced, sometimes they would say, "Oh, I knew I never liked the person from the.

beginning." And yet at the time they. reported, "Oh my god, we had this. amazing chemistry." Right? So it's not. very reliable that first time is what. I'm trying to say. Yeah. Um it takes time. So you you go on. a first date or a first meeting with. somebody and and you say, "Did you Did. you have a good time? Would you like to. spend another hour with this person?". Mhm. And then see whether something. develops. Sometimes it does. A lot of. the times it does. A lot of the time it. doesn't, but you won't know until you. give it some breathing room. I should. say too that, you know, there's a saying. that we marry our unfinished business.

Mhm. And what I mean by that is that a. lot of times if you haven't worked. through some of these. um ways of being in relationship that. didn't work very well for you, you seek. them out in other people without. realizing it. So the person will look. very different, let's say, from your mom. or your dad or whomever, and yet um. once you get to know that person, you're. like, "Oh god." You know, like, "Oh, wait. This this feels really like oh, I. recognize that. I didn't see that at. all." Right? So that's our unfinished.

business. So you really got to. work through your stuff so that you can. meet the person that you're going to. have true authentic chemistry with and. not this kind of like chaotic chemistry. with. Yeah, chaotic chemistry is a. really nice way to put it because. yeah, that's often what it is. It's like. everything's chaotic, but we feel. chemistry. It's you know, it's like. people will say I have so much chemistry. with this person even though I can't. rely on this person or I'm always. nervous. I'm always on edge. I never. know where I stand with this person, but. we have so much chemistry.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's just and it's crazy how. I I'd love to date back actually and I'm. I'm doing some research on it right now. I'd love to hear if you already know. what some but I'm I'm really interested. in where that desire for chemistry ever. even sourced. Like where it started like. that one that we all have for wanting to. feel chemistry. Like I wonder where it. was a movie or because I remember the. first time I wanted a girlfriend was. because I watched a movie and my. favorite character like was attracted to. this girl and I was like, "Oh, maybe I. should have a girlfriend." Like I didn't.

you know, I was a kid and I didn't even. know what that meant. But it was just so. cleverly planted into my mind that I. didn't feel complete without a partner. And and it's fascinating to me look at. where these things started because. sometimes they're just things that. you've heard over and over again in. movies or books or songs and. Yeah, I mean I think that we we define. chemistry as sort of like this instant. magical thing. Um and and chemistry is. is so multi-factorial. It's about, you. know, what is this energy that goes on. between the two of you and and how are.

you together in daily life? Not like on. the vacation in Tahiti, right? Um so. when people think about spending their. lives with somebody, it's about the. day-to-day. It's about how do we get. through the hard things? How do we. listen to each other? How do we deal. with um the places that we disagree? How do we deal with the differences. between us? Cuz we think of chemistry is. like that overlap. Like we we both love. sushi and rollerblading and this movie. and that book and you know, and and. we're vegan and you know, whatever it.

is, right? Um and that's not chemistry. Chemistry is how do we inhabit the same. space knowing that we're two separate. human beings and how do we stay. connected even with the space between. us? Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's yeah, that's really powerful. Tell me about the uh. Tell me about dealing with the paradox. of being perceived as someone who has. all the answers. but also is. knowingly trying to grow in their own. life.

Like how how does that paradox work for. you? Yeah. When it's like, you know, the. perception not only of your clients now. like, you know, you're going to have a. TV show about the book. Like the book's. been so incredibly successful which is. helping so many people. How do you deal. with that personally of that feeling of. yeah, I do have answers and I do not. have to help people. Obviously, people. are being helped. Like you're changing. people's lives and at the same time. you're like, yeah, but I'm still. learning and I still got to work on this. and I'm still working on this. How do. How do you deal with that paradox? Or. How do you Yeah. Well, well, that's. interesting because so in the book I.

follow. four very different patients where I'm. their therapist and then the fifth. patient in the book is me. Yeah. As I go through my own therapy. with my therapist and a lot of people. say, well, why, you know, are you. insane? You know, why why would you do. that? Uh before before the book came. out. I think it's really smart. And it. was Well, the reason I did it is because. I really felt like if my patients were. going to be so vulnerable, I felt it. would be disingenuous to be the expert. up on high helping these people when I. was going through something in my own. life. And and we all struggle. And and.

so I say at the very beginning of the. book that my greatest credential is that. I'm a card-carrying member of the human. race. And it was so important for me to show. how we're all more the same than we are. different and I think that that makes. what people can learn from the book so. much more powerful and impactful. Um what's interesting though is that. even though I was very sure that I. wanted to do that, once the book um so, you know, I I was supposed to be writing. a different book. I was supposed to be. writing a book about happiness and and.

it it just felt so empty to me because I. feel like happiness is a byproduct of. living our lives in a in a fulfilling. way and a meaningful way is really what. we all hope for, but happiness is the. goal in and of itself felt like a recipe. for disaster. So, it felt like it was. just I was I was a therapist and I was. trying to write this book about. happiness and it was making me. depressed. Ironically, I called it the. miserable depression-inducing happiness. book. And so, I ended up not writing. that book and then I ended up writing. this book and and I thought like maybe. three people would read it cuz everybody. said "Oh, you know, nobody wants to.

nobody wants to read a book about. therapy." And it's not it's a book about. the human condition. Um and so, once the. book was turned in and and the sales. team got it at the publisher and. everybody started like passing the book. around and and I thought, "Oh, no, maybe. like cuz I thought like three people. would read it." Now I'm like, "Maybe 300. will read it. Maybe 3,000." I didn't. realize like we're like 10 months on the. New York Times list now. And so, well, thank you. I I say that only in the. context of um if I had known how many. people were going to be reading it, I. think I would have hesitated to be so.

open. I let it rip. I mean, I I do not. come off well. I mean, I'm very just. here's what happened and I just let it. go. Um and so, I'm really glad that I didn't. clean myself up because I think that if. I had, people wouldn't have read it. I. think that the reason that people are. responding to it and seeing themselves. in these stories is because we're all so. real in the book. Mhm. You know, nobody's cleaned up in the book. Yeah, I agree. I I and I think that's. beautiful and. I I I do think that that message is so.

much stronger today as well and I I'm. really glad that you didn't know how. successful the book was going to be. It's great and it's funny though, isn't. it that we we feel that sometimes like. you would. and and I'm glad you didn't I know you. didn't too because you're you're very. happy sharing, but it is weird that we. think oh if that many more people are. going to see this, I wouldn't. What is. it about that? Is that just more chances. and odds of people having issues with us. or challenging us. Like, what is that. that stops us from being more vulnerable.

the more people see us? Because I feel. when you're not well-known, it's like. you strive to be well-known. And then. when you meet people who are well-known, they're almost striving for more. privacy. Yeah. You know, it's like, right? I'm sure you. see that in your work all the time. I. do. I think that people are afraid I. mean, I think there's shame there. You. know, like that that that as a. therapist, um. you know, letting people see me. struggle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And say, you know, here I I I mean, I do all the things. with my therapist that my patients do. with me. So So you see me like I want to.

be liked by him. And I Google stalk him. one night. And you know, I do all these. things. Um and it's embarrassing. Um. you know, to because you think, well, people will think less of me. People. will think that I'm less competent or. um you know, whatever you imagine. And. that's not been the case at all. Yeah. You know, I think that people have. said, I you know, I I I really I really. value what you shared. Um I really. respect you. I admire you for that. And. And I think that that translates to. people out in the world being more open.

with each other. Because the title of. the book, Maybe You Should Talk to. Someone, doesn't mean we should all go. to therapy necessarily. It means we all. need to talk more to each other. And so the more that I can model that. for people, if I can't you know, walk. the talk, if I can't do what I'm asking. people to do, then there's a big gap. Yes. But if I actually do it, I think it. helps people to say, "Oh, well, if she. can do it, then I can do it, too.". Absolutely. Absolutely. And what have.

you seen are those patterns of. clients that you find that you're. working with that have seen the biggest. transformations in their life? Are there. patterns in those people. that they have certain shared beliefs, values, work ethic, habits that that. help them take whatever advice you gave. or other therapists have given them that. have actually changed? Like, what has. been that kind of X factor that people. have shared? Um think that what happens is they. release the story that they came in with. and and sometimes it's these stories of.

you know, there's the content of what they're. saying like here's what's going on in my. relationship. Here's what's going on. with my anxiety. and they have a story about it. So they. think that the content is the story but. what I'm listening for is sort of the. music under the lyrics. So the lyrics. are you know, I'm having panic attacks. The music is what is the underlying. struggle or pattern that is getting you. into the situation. And once they can see that that can. translate into everything that happens.

in their daily lives. But I think it. takes courage. I think it takes so much. courage for them to say I'm going to. make changes. I always like to say that. insight is the booby prize of therapy. that you can have all the insight in the. world. You can say now I understand why. I'm struggling in this way. Now I. understand why I have these arguments. with my partner. And I'll say well did you do something. different? And they'll say well no but. now I understand it. Well you're not. really doing the work because you have. to do something different and I love. this Victor Frankl quote that's in the.

book where he had written. between stimulus and response there is a. space. In that space. is the power to choose our response. In. our response it lies our growth and our. freedom. So yes there might be difficult. people but then the question is what is. our role in that? So why are we in that. relationship or what is our role in. making that relationship so chaotic, so. difficult, so. there's so much tension in it. Why is.

that? So what what is it that that we. can do next time that person does that. thing that triggers us? Can we have a. different response cuz the response we. keep giving is yielding the same thing. Nothing's changing. So when we talk. about insight is the booby prize of. therapy it's not just having the. insight, it's you have to make changes. and you have to look that means that you. can make changes. You're not going to. change the other person, but your. changes can influence another person. So. it's always like doing a dance, right? And so if you change your dance steps,

that person either has to change their. dance steps too or they will fall flat. on the floor or they can leave the dance. floor. Yeah. But the good thing is you. changed your dance steps. And that's the thing when you say what. is the unifying thing that all of them. have in common when they've made changes. that have really, really transformed. their lives. It's about they they chose. different dance steps. Yeah, that's. great advice and I love that analogy of. the dance steps and may it I can. visualize it perfectly and it makes so. much sense and I think one of the things.

that I hear in that regard that. a lot of people I talk to and and I'm. I'm getting to get you to give them. advice which is fantastic and they all. listen to the podcast also is is the. feeling of like I know what I need to do. to change. but I'm only going to do it for a few. days. and if that person doesn't change their. dance steps back in line with me right. now I cave or I let go and sometimes. it's genuine and sometimes it's not. genuine. Sometimes it's like well if. they don't change I'm not going to. change but for a lot of friends it's.

like I'm going to change and I'm going. to be the best husband in the world for. 3 months. but if you know, but she never changes. Okay, so here's the thing. You're not. changing for them, you're changing for. you. 100%. And so if you stop changing in. positive ways for yourself, you're. letting yourself down. So you're not doing it to get a response. from the other person. If you get a. different response from the other. person, that's great. Amazing, yeah. But you're doing it to. get a different response from yourself. You're doing it so that you are making.

choices that align with how you want to. be in the world. And when you make choices that align. with how you want to be in the world, you will be putting a different energy. out there that maybe somebody will that. will influence somebody potentially, but. it will certainly influence you and the. choices that you make. So, you don't make a change and it's not a. contest, you know, it's not a contest of. like if I change, you need to change or. you need to change first. I see this. with couples a lot. Like Like I'll only.

change when you change. And it's a fight. it's a it's a historical fight that they. have with with from their childhood. Like I'll only change mom and dad when. you become the parent that I needed you. to be back then. But you're an adult now. It's like. wearing clothes that no longer fit you. Totally. Um and you're still like trying. to get those clothes It's like take off. those clothes. You're free It's There's. this analogy in the book that I love. that my therapist used with me. He said, "You remind me of a cartoon." And it's. of a prisoner shaking the bars. desperately trying to get out, but on.

the right and the left the bars are. open. No bars. Yeah. Right? And I was like, "Whoa, I am my own jailer.". Yeah. We sometimes are our own jailers. We think we're so trapped by everyone. and everything else, but we are the ones. who are keeping ourselves imprisoned. I. just did a TED Talk about this and it. was it was about the idea that that we. know on some level that the bars are. open, but we don't want to step outside. because if we step outside, we will have.

to change. And when we change, that means we have. to take responsibility for our lives. And sometimes we would rather blame. everything that's going wrong on. somebody else. Yeah. You know, if I take. responsibility for my life, then I'm. also responsible for what doesn't work. I can't blame my bad mood, my bad day, my bad circumstance, my not taking risks. on this other person. I have to be accountable to myself for. that. And how about when people take that. accountability, but instead of turning into action, they.

turn it into anger Mhm. on themselves? Right. feel that's half of what scares people. Like it's easier to blame everyone else. and everything else going wrong because. then I at least don't hate myself. Yeah. But it's like when you take it inward it. And sometimes that can launch you into. action. Like I I was literally sharing. that with a friend yesterday. I was. sharing that there was a time in my life. where I could have sat around and blamed. the people around me, or I knew that I. had to be accountable and take action in. my life and own it. And I was like, this. is my life. If I'm going to blame them, I'm going to be sad. So it shifted me.

into action, but we find also that it. can shift people into anger. How How do you stop someone from from. getting into that space where now they. see all is their fault and now it's like. they're just a bad person and it starts. becoming very negative for their. self-talk. Well, I would say two things. One is. that we really talk a lot about. self-compassion because self-compassion. um. helps you see how complicated human. beings are. It helps you see that I am. Yes, I'm these things and I'm also these.

things and both can coexist. Um I'm. growing here and I'm learning here and I. made this regrettable choice here, but. I'm going to learn from it. And and. self-compassion breeds compassion for. others. So then we're more compassionate. out in the world cuz we see the. complexities of other people, too. Absolutely. So I think that that when we. can instead of turning that, you know, the responsibility into anger, you can. say, I'm going to be really kind to. myself because no growth can happen. without compassion and no growth can.

happen without vulnerability. And you. can't truly be vulnerable if you're not. going to be compassionate cuz you'll. you'll have too much of that anger. Yeah. coloring it. Um so I think that. that's part of it. And I think the other. thing, too, is to remember that um. punishing yourself with anger is uh. is going to distract you from something. that we all have to face. And this is. going to sound like a non sequitur, but. it's not, which is that we're all going. to die. Mhm. Okay? Life has a 100%. mortality rate and that's not just for. other people. And so I think that.

sometimes we spend so much time in the. anger because we don't want to think. about. I really do have a limited time here and. we get so scared. We say, "Oh my god, what am I going to do? I have to make my. life worthwhile and I have to do all. these things that I want to do." And we. get so scared of not being able to. accomplish those things that we'd rather. sit in the anger so we don't have to. think about it. Mhm. Absolutely. Um so, I really want people. to be aware of There's a saying that I. love which is time is the coin of life.

Spend it well. Mhm. You're not spending. it well when you're angry either at. yourself or at other people. You know, anger is There's a thing. called the anger iceberg, right? And so, it's like this you can imagine this. image of like the iceberg and here's. sort of the the waterline, right? And. so, anger is on top but underneath are. more vulnerable feelings. Right. Sadness, anxiety, um. regret, you know, whatever it might be. Anger's just a disguise. It's It's just. the front-facing experience of the.

emotion. Yeah. We're so afraid of of all of our. emotions, even the good ones. We're. afraid of joy. There's a There's a word. cherophobia, which is it's an actual. thing. It's It's fear of of joy. And. there are people who maybe when they. were growing up, uh whenever they felt. like good for a moment, the other shoe. would drop. You know, something bad. would happen. And so, they got very. uncomfortable because joy for them was. almost like anticipatory pain. Like it. won't last. Yeah. rather never experience joy than to know. that it's going to go away. That was.

their mindset. It's too painful when I. get my hopes up and I think everything's. going to be okay and then boom, it goes. away, right? And so, there are a lot of. people who they put all these obstacles. in the way of their joy so that they. don't have to feel joy because joy is. too painful for them. Yes, absolutely. It's so true. And it's like while you're. in joy, you're only thinking about when. is this going to end? And when you're in pain, you think about. when is this going to end? And that. mindset continues. And that same mindset. applies to both, right? In joy, you. think when is this going to end and then.

in pain, when is this going to end? Right. And people are afraid of of their. pain, too. And And I think there's a. difference between pain and suffering. So So pain is we all feel pain because. if you're human, you're going to. experience pain. But suffering is the. ways that we exacerbate the pain. Yeah. Right. So suffering is I'm going to. Google stock my boyfriend or I'm going. to ruminate on this mistake that I made. and make myself feel really bad about. this thing that happened. Um you know, that's suffering. So So we we don't.

cause our own pain, but we do cause our. own suffering. Yeah, I think it's. fascinating how. we create suffering. Right? We create the suffering. The. What's that statement about how. pain is guaranteed, but suffering is. optional. Right. something like that. It's like that's. the choice that we get to make and. one of one of the things I really want. to dive into that with you is. uh loss, which we just mentioned about. in the break quickly there, and and. grief that people experience. And I know.

for long parts of my life. I personally really struggled. with knowing how to deal with people. who'd lost someone. For a long. for a great amount I think I'm a lot. better now, but. it was something I generally had to work. on. And it's funny because I feel like. you're just expected to know how to deal. with this stuff. Right? Like there's no. Like you're expected to know how to deal. with grief. You're expected to know how. to deal with breakups. And not just for. yourself, but for other people in your. life. Yes. And in this chapter you have a. chapter where you're talking about John,

the the character. Yeah. Tell us about that experience of. dealing with grief and and how to. support someone you love Yeah. through grief. Yeah. So I you know, I. think there's a lot of loss in our lives. in general, but we don't we we minimize. the loss. So there are the kind of these. silent losses. Just before I get into. John, there's this idea about, you know, it was a breakup, but not a divorce. Within 3 weeks you'll be over it. You. know, and it's kind of like and so we. and so we we don't know how to support. our friends if they're really.

experiencing the grief of the end of a. relationship that where it wasn't as. tangible because, you know, it's not a. divorce, for example. Or, you know, we. see that with, you know, somebody had a. miscarriage but they didn't lose their. 8-year-old child. And then people don't. talk about the miscarriage and they're. so alone in the experience. Yeah. Um because these are these silent. losses because people feel like, well, I. can't really, you know, it's even just. being single, okay? So, a lot of times. people will talk about ambiguous grief.

Ambiguous grief is the grief of being. single because. you don't know when and if you're going. to meet someone. So, you're always. dealing with the loss of not having a. partner and it never ends. Um in the sense of you can't say, "Okay, that person's dead now." Not that person. Not that that ends. Let me be clear. What I mean by that is when somebody. dies, you are going through that. experience of what it what they meant to. you in their life and they live on with. you in a certain way and you loved that. person.

Um here you haven't met that person yet. You don't even know who the person is. So, you're you're grieving for the. person you have not yet met. And people don't understand the grief of. somebody who really wants to be with. somebody. Um you know, and people will make all. kinds of comments. Oh, well, you know, you'll meet someone or, you know, like, "Oh, you have such a great life." And. and they don't want to acknowledge that. Yes, that might be true. Yes, and. Yes, and this other thing exists, this. ambiguous grief of will I ever meet this.

person? Where is that person? I'm. longing for this person that I don't. even know what that person looks like or. what their name is. Yeah. Right? Um so, I think that we need. to learn how to deal with loss and how. to support people in loss. Um in the. book we have loss in in the sense of um. you know, even just losing the hope for. a better childhood, right? So, Charlotte, the woman who keeps hooking. up with the wrong guys, what helps her. move forward is that in order to. um. in order to move into adulthood, she has.

to let go of the hope for having had a. better childhood. Yeah. Um if you let go of that, you can move. into adulthood and hold that grief. And. and and that's when things open up for. you. So, there's all kinds of grief that. every single person experiences. Um in. the book, we have, you know, loss of a. child. We have loss of This young woman. goes on her honeymoon and she's in her. 30s and she comes back and she has. cancer and and eventually it turns out. to be terminal cancer. And how do you. deal with You have 1 year's They say you.

have like a year to 10 years to live, right? And so, people would say all. these things like, "Have you gotten a. second opinion?" You know, like they. don't they don't know how to sit with. her in the reality of her diagnosis. Um you know, they'll say things like, "Well, my cousin took vitamin this and. it work you know, as opposed to just. this sucks." Or "I love you so much.". So, there's a there's a chapter in the. book called what not to say to a dying. person because she wanted to write a. book about all the things that. well-meaning people who loved her said. But they're so uncomfortable with.

talking about the truth of the loss. Yeah. Right? So, if somebody is. experiencing a loss, I hope that we can. talk about the truth of the loss with. them and not try to distract them from. that. Yeah. Um because that's what's really. going to help them. Yeah. I love that. It's such. That's the best advice I've ever heard. on loss, for sure, because. yeah, everything's a distraction. We're. always trying to distract people from. their pain. And it's our discomfort. Yeah, it's our discomfort reflected on. Right. Right. We say, "Oh, I don't want.

to make them uncomfortable." You're. actually making them uncomfortable by. not speaking about what's there in plain. sight. Yeah. So, this thing is there in plain. sight sitting between you and you're not. talking about that and you're making. them uncomfortable and they feel like. then oh, I feel so unseen right now. because you are trying to make yourself. more comfortable in talking to me and. I'm not in this equation at all and yet. you're trying to comfort me. Absolutely. Yeah, I I mean, I can definitely think. of. there are literally people's faces. flashing in front of me right now that.

when you're saying that I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what they wanted to talk. about. That's exactly what. Right. what they wanted to do but either. I was too scared to go there or. if it was me, people were too scared to. go there or whichever way it was and. yeah, every you've got. just going to say it's a little bit like. apologies, you know, like who is the. apology for? Right? Are you apologizing. because you really feel uh you regret. that that happened and you feel sorry or. are you apologizing cuz it will make the. other person feel better? And I think. that the more that we can have an.

authentic dialogue um and go to the hard. places um both people end up feeling. seen and heard. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's. that's the hope that I'm hoping everyone. who listens and watches this. conversation is just and and reads the. book 100% like I really hope everyone. who's listening and watching today reads. the book because I feel like it's. it's exactly that. It's these subtle. insights, these these it's it's life's. all lived in these moments, these.

transition moments, these pain moments, these. tragedy but like these moments and and. they define our relationships, they. define how much we trust others, they. define who we feel loved by and who feel. close to and who we feel far from. Like. for example, when you when you when you. just want to go to the park on a sunny. day and someone doesn't want to go, you. don't feel offended by that. Like it. doesn't affect your relationship but. it's like when you're going through. something really painful and someone. doesn't know how to process that, that feels like it can make or break a. relationship often and I see that with. people deciding who they love.

by how they feel that person treats them. when they're going through something. difficult. That's right and that's why that's why. going back to what I said earlier about. choose your audience that you know you. want to make sure that the person that. you're opening up to is the right. person. Yeah, absolutely. Two more questions. before I ask you the final set of. rounds. So, two questions that I want to. end on before we go into the rapid fire. rounds are um. how do we be a good friend to others? I.

know it's a very open question, but I I. want to leave it open so that you can. answer it. How is What is the best way. to be a good friend for someone else? And the second question, how do we allow. our friends to be the best for us? Mhm. Because I think that's the part that we. don't hear often enough is how can we. help other people help us better? Yes. Yes. We can be a good friend to others. by learning to speak their language. So, I do that as a therapist all the time. just because somebody this person comes.

in with something that's similar to what. the other person came in with. They're. unique individuals and you have to learn. to speak someone's language. So often we. try to take our language and push it. onto them. Yeah. And it doesn't work. Totally. Right? So, being a good friend. means I'm I care enough about you to. learn your language. And how can we help someone be a good. friend to us is to be open to the.

differences between us. We need to let those differences be a. part of our friendship to enhance our. friendship. Um I think so many people are so worried. about uh. you know bringing those differences into. the friendship. They think well there's. going to be a rift here. I believe this. and you believe this and we have. different ideas about this. That's okay. Absolutely. That's amazing beautiful. answers. Thank you so much for for. sharing those. So, we have our fill in. the blanks and rapid fire rounds. These. are fill in the blanks is a new segment. that we've started this year since the.

one-year year of the podcast. So, I. share sentences and you fill in the. blanks. So, therapy doesn't mean. Oh, no. Okay, wait a second. I know. You can think about it. Okay. Um. an instant fix. Okay, good. Okay. Humans. are innately ridiculous. Okay. Shame and. guilt are toxic. Change your narrat-. Changing your narrative allows. possibility. Suppressing your feelings. only.

makes you sick. We suffer unnecessarily when. we get scared. Being vulnerable and transparent can. transform us. The only way to achieve. true connection is by being courageous. Okay. Wonderful. Beautiful. That was. great. You were doing fantastic. Okay, that was very good. We often get people. who want to go off on a tangent. You did. not do that. I appreciate it. It. sticking sticking within the rules. which is why I had to think about it. Okay, so these are rapid fire now. Final.

five, which is one word to one sentence. maximum. Okay. There are very few people. that stick to it, but I I have deep. respect for anyone who does. If I wasn't sweating before, I'm. sweating now. I know. Okay, fine. All right, here we. go. Uh let's go. I've got a selection here that I can't. wait to choose. So, what question do you wish people would. ask you more often? How do you feel? Really? Interesting. How do you feel? I'm going to start the trend.

Right now I feel I feel very joyful. You're very kind. I appreciate that. That's cool. That's interesting. I'm going to go off on a tangent. Okay. Cuz I I have so much to say about that. actually. Yeah, let's go. Okay, so let's do it. Yeah. I I felt we needed to too. How. I feel like people don't ask that. Or. when they do ask that, they're expecting. you to say, "Okay, good, bad." Mm. Like, you know, it's like we give such bad. answers to that question. Like When someone gives me an. interesting answer to that question, I'm. almost more alert. Yes. Does that make.

sense? Yes. Yes. So, it's not So, it's it's I. don't mean how do you feel like, "Oh, hey, how you doing?". I mean, I actually want people to be. curious. Um and so, I think people are so curious. about like what's going on? How's that. project going? What's going on with the. You know, it's sort of like all this. like content-level things, right? I want. to get in the process with people in the. right context. Yeah, of course. So, you know, I I think. that sometimes we forget to ask the. people that we care about how they feel. I love that. I think that's really cool. Yeah, I misunderstood it when you said. it the first time. So, I'm glad we.

of like, you know, how was your How are. you feeling? Mhm. Yeah. And it's hard to ask that and. answer that. Yeah. Cuz when you ask that, you've got to be. really ready to listen and receive. Yes. And and the person who's going to. answer is going to have to. try to not give you the 2-minute answer, so. Well, also a lot of times when. people ask that, it's they they have an. acceptable range of answers. Um you. know, you can feel the ways that are. acceptable to me. Um which is very different from, you. know, they might throw you a curveball.

And those curveballs are where your. relationship deepens. Yeah, absolutely. All right, question number three. When. was the last time you felt heard and. understood and not in a therapy session? Right here. Oh, thank you. It's very. kind. All right. Uh question number. four. I'm I want to You're too good at. this. I need to try and find something. that Not I mean, I want you to be good. at it, but Okay, this one I really like. If you could create a law that everyone. would have to follow in the world, what. would it be? Kindness. And and what would that.

practice be? Like if you had to simplify. kindness into that one habit or one. practice or one thing that everyone had. to do every day as the law, what would. it be? Uh before you speak, ask. yourself, how will this land on the. other person? Mhm. It's a great rule. Yeah, you would change everything. Yeah. J- probably wouldn't say much. I think you would. You think you would? Interesting. would. I think that we know how to be. kind. I think that, you know, all of. these obstacles get in the way. Mhm. But. I think that when we take away, you.

know, all of the noise in our heads, and. there's so much noise, uh we innately. know how to be kind. You know, is it is. it kind, is it true, and is it helpful? If it meets those three criteria, then. go ahead and say it. Nice. And once you. practice that, you don't you don't need. to premeditate so much. You will you. will organically start to just speak. that way to other people. Yeah, absolutely. In the In the Bhagavad Gita, the book from India, it's called um. the four austerities of speech. So, it's. is it true? Is it beneficial to all?

Mhm. This is my favorite one. Can it be said in a way that doesn't. agitate the mind of others? Oh. Right? Like Like, you know, it's like that that. delivery point of like, how can you say. it in a way that isn't going to agitate. someone's mind? And then the fourth one. is is it based on spiritual text and. foundational text? Okay, fifth and final. question for you. What is the biggest. lesson you've learned in the last 12. months? Mhm. Um that. people really want. to be open. And I I I think that I knew.

that as a therapist, but I didn't. realize, you know, I thought, well, maybe in these little clusters of people. who go to therapy, those are the people. who want to be open. Everybody wants to. tell their story, and everybody has a. story. People think, oh, well, my story. isn't that interesting, or my story is. kind of boring. No. People's stories are. fascinating. And I've gone all over the. country in the last, what, since last. April when the book came out, and I I. people are telling their stories. Yeah. And every single one is.

fascinating. And And they are realizing. that their story has value. Yeah. And often those silent or unheard. stories are the stories that are more. interesting. Yes. We were just talking about that now. Like, I know people that are just in my. vicinity that have fascinating lives and. stories that may never become a movie or. may never become a book, but they're. just fascinating stories of resilience. and human connection and breakthrough. power and all the rest of it. And so And. I think we learn so much from other. people's stories. And that's why in the. book so many people have said, "Oh, I I.

learned a lot about myself even though. they're not in the book because it's so. different." If I say to you, Jay, if I. say, you know, "You're like this or you. do this." You'd say, "Well, no, I'm not. I don't do that." Right? That's our. response. Um but if you see someone else. do it, you can say, "Oh, I'm kind of. like that.". I do that sometimes. Totally. Um it's. it's very non-threatening to see. yourself in other people's stories, which is why I think we all need to be. sharing our stories more. Absolutely. I. agree. And thank you for encouraging. people to do that. Lori, you're amazing. Everyone, this is Lori Gottlieb. Maybe.

you should talk to someone. Go and grab. a copy of the book. I promise you it's. a fun read, it's entertaining, and as. you've seen, it's deeply insightful and. empowering as well. Please, please, please go and grab a copy. Like I said, we will put the link uh to the Amazon. order in the captions and the comments. Uh Lori, this has been amazing. Like. Thank you so. you has been phenomenal. To sit with you. in a sauna {slash} not sauna Yeah, I. love that you're saying that. We're we're we're both sweating, but I I. just genuinely want to say, like, I I.

love what you're doing. I love the way. you're presenting it. I think it's. exactly the language and the. storytelling that the world needs today. And I'm so happy that it's had so much. incredible success, and I'm so grateful. to meet you today. Thank you so much. grateful for our conversation. you. I'm really excited for you all to. read this. Everyone, go and follow Lori. uh across social media. Where are the. best places for people to find you? They. can find me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb. 1. They can find me on Instagram at Lori. Gottlieb {underscore} author. They can. find me on my website, lorrigottlieb.com.

Uh they can read my Dear Therapist. column. It comes out every Monday in The. Atlantic. They can read the book. Yeah, perfect. Go and follow her on all of the. social media platforms. Uh and I'll be. tagging her in all of these posts. If. there's anything that said that really. stood out to you, that really resonated, that really connected, please, please, please tag me and Lori on Instagram and. share it so that I love seeing what. connects with you. Like it means a lot. to me because it helps me ask better. questions for you. It helps me. understand our guest better for you as. well. So please do that. Thank you for. watching or listening. See you soon. If.

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