Learn The MOST IMPORTANT Skills To Be SUCCESSFUL In The 21st Century | Ray Dalio & Jay Shetty

And the path, really, to success, in my. opinion, is to be able to to align those. Okay, what am I feeling? And then to reflect. intellectually, is that the right thing. if I'm going to The best-selling author. and host. The number one health and wellness. podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the number one health podcast. in the world, thanks to each and every. single one of you that come back every. week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, I.

know you're here because you love. learning about new insights, ideas, principles that can transform your life, things that you can put into practice, ideas that you can actually take into. your life, apply them, and see changes. and transformation happen. Today's guest. is one of the few guests who's been on. not just once, not just twice, but a. third time. I don't think there's more. than three guests out of our entire. library that have been on as many times. as today's guest, and I couldn't be more. excited to talk to him. The first time I. spoke to him, we were speaking about his.

book, Principles, an incredible book. If. you haven't read it, highly recommend. that you get it. Uh next time we spoke, we spoke about his second book, Changing. World Order. And the third one, this. interview, we're talking about his new. journal called My Principles. I've been. flicking through this over the past few. days since I've had it, and it has given. me so much self-awareness that I already. believe I have, but the opportunity to. reflect on it again and again. consistently makes a huge difference. Of. course, I'm talking about the one and. only Ray Dalio. Ray, thank you for being. here.

Thank you for doing this. Jay, it's such. a pleasure. All of these times, I love. it. Yeah, it's a joy to see you after 3. years. We did one digital interview, maybe even two, I think we did, in the. middle of the pandemic. Maybe this is. your fourth time, actually. Maybe I'm. completely wrong, but either way, I'm. just always grateful to be in your. presence. I learn so much from you. I. remember, I want to share this because. the first time I met you, I'd heard so much about you, and, you. know, your your reputation precedes you, and you have this, you know, huge brand beyond just I'm not.

sure about brand in terms of social. media or anything in the business world. And I had no idea what you were going to. be like and I was I was nervous. I was. it was 3 years ago, but it was that was. early in my career of doing this and. I was thinking to myself, I was like, "What's he going to be like? I've no. idea. Like, you know, how should I. behave around him?". And then you came in and you were the. most, you know, charming, disarming. individual that I'd met. You were so. comfortable to be around. I was telling. my whole team that I was like, "You You. forget everything in your presence. You. make everyone feel very comfortable, very respected, very uh very wanted and.

very valued." And I think that's a huge. gift. So, I wanted to say that because I. probably have not told you that, but. yes, 3 years ago I was very nervous. Well, there are times where there's um. an esprit de corps that there are. similar values, that you're going after. similar things and you can also play. jazz together. It's almost like when. we're right now, it's almost like we. could be playing together. Yeah, I love that. And I And we have that. So, I have the same respect and we can. So, let's go play some jazz. Yeah, let's. do it. I was going to ask you, do you.

remember the first time you ever felt. fear meeting someone? Because I know you. talk a lot about uh the truth and. fearlessness, but yeah, was there ever a. time when you remember meeting a mentor, a business person, a. person in your world where you felt a. sense of fear and how you dealt with. that? Um my reactions are tend to be more like. excitement. There's a nervous. excitement. Yes, nervous excitement's probably the. right word, yeah. Yes. Cuz I'm I'm walking in and I'm thinking, "Okay. Wow. Okay." But it's it's a.

little bit like life, you know? The question at certain moments. is is that excitement? For some people, it's excitement. For some people, it's. fear. And it's not just at those moments. of meeting somebody like that. It. happens a lot in life, you know? It's. almost ambiguity, a taste for adventure. I think I'm I'm more the taste for. adventure. So, I will nervously go in. maybe with some palpitations. and feeling more excitement at it. Like.

I feel excited about this. I think. that's a great refinement. I I would say. I I feel the same way. It's a nervous. excitement. That's something special you have. You. have this ability to be really clear. about words, really clear about. emotions. When you read your work, when. you're in your work, was clarity. something that you always found easy or. how did you develop that ability to be. so clear about the language you use? Even just what you did now, it was like, I used a word and you're like, actually. I feel this. And I'm like, yeah, actually I feel that too. So, tell me.

where that refinement came from. I honestly don't know. Um I have a lousy. rote memory. That means, I mean really, rote memory. means like um if it doesn't have a. reason for being what it is, like a. phone number or name or anything like. that, like I'm terrible. And if it and. in school, terrible, you know, memorize. this. But if it's within a context and there's. a story or there's something, I have a. superb memory of how that transpires. I. think I was born that way. And so, by.

being born that way, I'm wondering, does. that enter into this particular. question? And I um and then I think my. job requires me to be thinking in terms. of that sort of clarity. But I'm really. not don't know. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean. it's it's fascinating for us to at least. learn that and perceive that in you. But. it seems like you've done a lot of. reverse engineering as well to create. the principles in the first place. Like. observing success, observing failure, observing wins. It seems like there's.

been No, you're putting your finger on. it. You know, what I did is I got in the. habit at a very early age that whenever. I would make a decision, I would pause and reflect, particularly. if it was a painful decision or a. painful moment. I'd pause and reflect. I. have a principle, pain plus reflection. equals progress. And then I would write down my. reflections. That's why the journal. I. would literally use a journal. This. journal, by the way, is connected to.

an an app that facilitates that, but and. that's what what I want to pass along. And I think that that helped my clarity. Because at that moment of stepping back. when there is greater clarity, when. there's calmness after the storm maybe, or the excitement of the adventure, whatever it is that you're reflecting. on. That reflection, writing it down and. thinking about it, and thinking, am I. clear? I think helps my I know helps my. clarity a lot. Wow. I remember few years.

ago when when you went to some through. something, you know, extremely tragic. I. I emailed you just just a note of of. love and. support, and you quoted that back to me. then in an email. And I I was just blown. away by that because I have quoted pain. plus reflection equals progress by you. a million times. I think I repeat that. in every keynote I give because I think. it's such a powerful. it's such a powerful principle because. as soon as you remove the word.

reflection, progress disappears and all. you're left with is pain. And when you repeated that back to me in. that moment, I thought, wow, like to. remember that principle in this moment. requires so much just just so much depth. and I I was truly blown away by that. because it's one thing writing it and. it's another thing living it. The incident that you're referring to is. the worst thing that could ever have. happened to me with the. um. I would have rather died than have it. happen. It was the loss of my son. Yeah. But you know, meditation helps a lot.

Mhm. Right? So meditation. and reflection because whenever there's. pain, there's a reality. It tells you. something about reality. And it tells you something about how to. deal with reality, the reflections. Yeah. Yeah. Life is life. It comes at you. It. is reality. You can't change it. Yeah. Okay? You can influence it based on your. reactions. Yeah. But you have to deal with it. And you.

have to deal with it in a calm. way. So, meditation helps you be calm. It helps you see the clarity and then. move beyond that to deal with the. circum- stances well, I think. How did. you come to accept that? I think a lot. of people struggle with accepting that. life's going to come at you. It's going. to do what it wants. I think we have a. desire for control. And when someone. looks at someone as successful as you, they would infer that oh, Ray probably. is good at controlling things. He's. probably good at making things happen. What is that balance or what have you.

discovered about the idea of like. control and acceptance? Like where do. where do you live in between that. spectrum? Well, I think you know, it keeps coming. back. Uh the Serenity Prayer. Yeah. God, give me the serenity to accept that. which I can't control. And give me the power to control that. which I can. And the wisdom to tell the. difference. And I think that that really. guides it. You know, what is your best? And so, it it is the combination of. acceptance. but also.

the desire to influence. Yeah. Right? And so, yeah, and if you're going. to influence, you have to have that. equanimity. You know, like a ninja. You know, there are things coming at you. and you can't be hijacked by your. emotions. Mhm. And the smartness of your move will. determine the outcomes. Mhm. And how do you learn that? Because. it produces better results and the other. one produces bad results. And it's like. do you learn anything? It's the same way.

you learn don't put your hand on a hot. stove. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I I love. that because I think we live in the. world right now where it's like is it. this way or that way? It's always is it. either or? And you're saying, "Well, no, it's both." Right? We need both. acceptance and control. We need both. desires. And I think often we get lost. thinking, "Well, it's one or the other. You can only choose one." And in all. either of those cases, it's reality. Mhm. Okay, you're dealing with reality. Yeah. So, to go above it.

it is so important, you know? Here I am. in this situation. And what do I do? What resources can I. use? Who might I speak with for help? Mhm. All of that helps you navigate cuz. you still have to deal with reality. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. When when. did you We're talking about My. Principles the journal. And I know like. you said there's an app attached to it. And for anyone who's. wondering why this journal is different, there's so many reasons why it's.

different. A, because it has better. prompts than. most journals I've seen, but it also has. this QR code that kind of you can scan. on every page. And so, whether it's. doing the assessment or whether in this. case it's watching a case study of this. principle in action, it's it's an. interactive journal, right? Which is. very different. I think we have lots of. journals where we write with a pen and. uh you're jotting down your thoughts. But here, if you can see there's, you. know, exercises included as well. When. did I'm intrigued. When did your. personal journaling practice start, Ray? Or did you. About 25 years ago. But I I want to say.

that uh. by being it gives you sort of an option. Do I want to have what I'm doing saved. online so then I can play around with. it? In other words, I got the data. Yeah. So, now once I've got the data. online rather than on piece of paper, you can do things with it. Um but but. sometimes that piece of paper. But I. started about um I guess about. 25, maybe 30 years ago. I can't tell.

you. Um. I started when I started building my. company, I it was a point of having 67. people. I remember it because. every holiday season. I would, you know, I started my company. from nothing. So, I had two people, four. people. Well, okay, we got up to 67. I. remember it was 67 because it was. holiday season. And every holiday I. would um. shop for their individual gifts and I'd. write each individual long notes.

And that was then long enough, take took. me long enough, to realize that I really. need to communicate better with them. Um, I also journaled because I needed to. write down my decision rules for the. markets. So, that I could go back test them. So, I it's a very great power if you can. know what your criteria would be and. then say how could I how would they have. worked in the past? How would they have. worked in this country or that country?

Because then you're not just making. decisions, you have perspective on. making decisions. So, those two things. together got me into journaling. Um, I. wanted the world, my world, my people I. worked with went up to 1,500 people. How. do you communicate in a really good way? And and it wasn't just journaling, but. then also I would combine the journaling. with uh videos and cases. My culture was. to have meaningful work and meaningful. relationships through radical.

truthfulness and radical transparency. So, what what we would do is video. everything or tape everything for. everybody to see. So, that way they. could see it. And so, by taking the. principles and putting them together. with the situations, it was fabulous. exposure. So, everybody was always. informed and they were going through. like this reality TV type experience. And that and then they would give. answers as they were going through the. experience because that way they would.

have that experience. But imagine a. reality TV experience, uh but it's your reality around you and. then you're making these uh this input. And then that input would be able to. know what people would think. Wow. So we. found all that experience really well. So we took the journals, the journaling. of the principles, I I did, uh and put. that together with the videos. And. that's that's on this. app, Principles in Action. It's called. Principles in Action. It's uh it's free.

and it's uh rated 4.9. People love it. But that journaling experience, that. reflecting, and reflecting together and. communicating together helps the people. bring people together and it also helps. people understand because too much stuff. is stuck up here. Oh, wow. I mean, just. hearing that, there's so many levels of. journaling there. There's the journaling. of, like you're saying, you writing down. your principles or the gifts and working. with people. Then there's the journaling. of even videoing everything. I mean,

that's journaling, right? You're. documenting it. It's recorded. It's. there to reflect upon. The The most brilliant part about that. though is that I think today people have. started to think journaling just means. writing down your feelings or writing. down your thoughts. Which is there. This. is No, no. I mean, I think it's good to. write down your feelings. Of course, yes, so I To bring them. forward, to look up to up to and to look. at them. Is that a good That's a good. exercise. Religion is not is a way of. life, is an approach to life.

I don't mean. Yes. part of religion. I mean, just how do. you how do you approach life? And you. get to make that decision. And so it's. really when you're in a situation, what are you going to do in that. situation and why? And of course, it. starts with your deeper needs, whatever. they may be. What do I want out of life? Who do I want to be with? What are the. directions, okay? And then it comes down.

to the particulars. And the particulars. can be. aspirational. I'm 73 years old. I know. that at this particular point in life, I. want to pass along the things that are. valuable for me. It could be on how do. you fire a person? How How do you treat. that person? It could be what is your. relationship like? And so those are the. principles. It's not just It's not journaling. feelings. And I So that found that very, very valuable. But I'm in a new phase of.

my life in which what I'm going to do is. get the best principles from everyone. I've been passing along my principles. and so on and it's been People find it. helpful. What a joy it is, as you must experience, when people say, "Oh my god, you've changed my life." But. other people can do it. You're doing it. And I say to so many people, um who are really very, very successful. people who have never written down their. principles, that they're going to die.

with them. And if they instead write. them down and. uh make them clear, then they're. teaching other people because there's a. life arc, right? We have experiences. that. things of decisions we make that make us. successful, okay? Including how to deal. with pain. And so if we write those. things down, we can help other people. And I think like I probably won't be. around. um to speak to my grandchildren in the.

way that I would like to then, but they. will have those principles. And so now. my aspiration is to get the the best. principles from wherever they. they come from. So this journal will be. accompanied by an ability for people to. submit their principles. and I'm doing. that also with the most successful. impactful people in the world. That's. why I'm going to be grabbing your. principles and that'll be put online so. that people can vote up the what are the.

best principles. They could either go to. Jay Shetty's principles or they can say. off through that voting what's the best. principle for the thing I'm dealing. with. So that way they can look and they. say I am dealing with this situation. Push the button. And then what are the. best principles for that situation. wherever they come from and then they. could choose their principles and that's. I think foundational for life. Yeah, that's fantastic and I know that's what. you're focusing with this is like you. want people to come up with their own.

and that's going to mean being exposed. to a lot of different ideas, a lot of. different insights to. find what they can hold on to and then. develop themselves. Did you always think. you've always said that to me since I've. met you and obviously that's been the. journey that you're on right now that. this phase in your life is giving back. and sharing the principles you've. learned. Have you always had a vision. for different stages of your life and I. don't mean a five-year, 10-year plan. I. mean more of like this is the world I'm. walking into. Like is that how you I. would say I don't know how many years.

ago I started to realize the arc of. life. Right. There's actually an. exercise in the book on the arc of life. Oh, there you go. That's the arc of. life. Yeah. And these are all the different. things that happen to you at that stage. It's almost like a script. And by going. down this script one can see where one. is and one can see the things that are. going to come at them. I started to. realize that in a big picture bit, I.

don't know, maybe it was 25, 30 years. ago. I can't say. But then I began to. research it. and understand it a lot greater. And. then I began to feel it. You feel it. Again, when you can connect. intellectually what's happening with. subliminally and emotionally what's. happening to you, you gain perspective. And so this like this phase, um it's not just an intellectual thing.

I don't know, maybe nature has. programmed us in our minds to have these. needs and feelings at a certain age. So. I know that now like the greatest joy. that I can have is to help people be. successful without me. I mean, I know. what what my time horizon is, and I know. that my greatest joy is in not any. longer in being successful myself. Um. that was that that was great and it's.

fine and so on, but I don't need more of. that, and I really my greatest joy is in. helping other people. And I can't say. whether that is a instinctual, how much. of it's instinctual, how much it's. cerebral by seeing that stage in life, but it's it's apparent. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you're doing it. And I I. remember even in even in other ways, like not just business success, but I. remember last year my wife and I we were. doing a charity event to raise funds for. COVID-19 in India cuz we read a. statistic that one person was dying.

every 5 minutes of COVID-19, and I. reached out to you and you just gave. such a wonderfully generous donation. And so in so many ways you're helping. and supporting, and and it's been so. beautiful to see. You're doing something. We were talking about this just before. we started filming, but this idea of. like coaching and mentorship, right? Like what you're saying is you're trying. to preserve this coaching and mentorship. for your grandkids, great grandkids, everyone else's grandkids and great. grandkids as well that will have access. to this. And journaling is someone that.

we see so many greats do as well. It's a. practice that has stood the test of. time. There are two schools of thought. Some. entrepreneurs believe that mentors and. coaches are a huge integral part of. their life. I know that I've had. spiritual mentors, financial mentors, career mentors. I've had mentors in. every area of my life. I see you as a. mentor. Uh on the other end, there are. entrepreneurs who believe they're. self-made, that you don't need mentors, you don't need coaches, you don't need. to listen to anyone's advice. Where. Where do you sit on that and how do you.

help young people navigate that today. because I think a lot of people uh are. stuck trying to figure it out or they're. not doing either properly as well. The. second group is stupid. I'm not but just be clear, okay? That. was very radically uh transparent. I. just want to be clear. They may confuse the. fact that um they may have good. instincts. They have to make their own decisions. They can be um.

independent thinkers that might do. controversial things in order to be. successful. That all is true, okay? That. all is true. But. the perspectives gained, the learning, uh the wisdom. that is gained, the open-mindedness, the. power of stress-testing your ideas. I. say that I think everybody's uh to be. successful should be assertive and. open-minded at the same time. Mhm. People ask, "Well, what does that merely.

mean?". It means the you have to believe, you. have to understand, and at the same time. you have to doubt and pull out and get. the questions so that you stress-test it. and you're you're learning, right? Yes, yes, yes. And so there's a great power in getting. the other perspectives. You know, a. triangulation for me is the key to. success, one of the keys to success. Triangulation, I mean, get the three. smartest people who you know who will.

care about you and but will disagree. with you, will stress test you and and. and have those conversations. And I like. to have them disagree with each other. Yeah. So I I'll bring them into a room. and we'll have a conversation and then. they do the back and forth. You want to. learn about anything like I have big. initiatives. And where I don't know anything. And I have found that if I follow that.

approach by getting the best experts and. I do that I can go into things with the. with the guidance. So it's so obviously. stupid, I think, or so obviously. beneficial. to be able to draw upon the best. thinking and then not to just blindly. believe. So when I say it, be assertive. and open-minded at the same time. Don't. just follow, okay? Do the back and. forth, hear the disagreements and then. resolve the disagreements. It's an. extremely powerful approach. Yeah, I.

know there was this amazing study I read. a few years ago in MIT where they said. that they did a study MIT did a study on. the most innovative people inside an. organization. And they showed two graphs to people and. they said, "Who do you think's more. innovative?" And in graph number one, it. was where one person is connected to. lots of different people like this. And then graph two was people connected. to people and then the people they knew. were connected to each other. And they asked, "Who do you think is.

more innovative?" And most people said. the second. I don't know if that's. because people don't know how to read. graphs or whether people really thought. it was, but the answer was that if you. know people who all know each other, chances are you're going to be less. innovative and less effective because. you live in an echo chamber. But if you. know people who don't know each other, who have more random ideas, disagreements, are less likely to. affirm each other's beliefs, which is. what you're saying, you're actually. going to get to a better answer. And so.

they were saying that if you know people. from different backgrounds, different. walks of life, different expertise, therefore there will naturally be. debate, you get healthier answers. So I. think that study always stands out to. me. And this is a problem, the biggest. problem of our society now. The biggest problem of our society now. is individuals who are highly. opinionated. who will not exchange open-mindedly the. different opinions about things.

And are in their echo chambers, whether. it's on the particular media that. they're connected to and so on. Who are. then having conflicts with each other. This is a threat to our society. Yeah, and and let's talk about that. I think. that's such a fascinating topic and idea. because I I couldn't agree with you. more. If I had to say for myself, I feel. like I think maybe it was from, you. know, working I love both of my parents, but I. I I was mediating their marriage since I. was a kid. And so I was very good at. being on both sides. I love them both.

individually and I would always like I'd. know I could listen to my mom and I. could hear her side and I could. empathize with her. Then I'd do the same. with my dad and I'd be there for both of. them and it it became a natural thing. that I was able to do I think because of. that. When I'm when I reflect on it, I. think that's how I gained that skill. So. I've always found it very natural to be. able to understand different sides, to. really empathize and connect with. different people and see that there's. truth and challenges in both. But I. think that's hard to do because I think. today we feel ideology is our safety,

right? And ideology is what makes us. feel secure in who we are. And so right, that's. That's a serious mistake. Right. So. yeah, let's let's dive into that. How do. we let go of that in recognizing that. actually knowledge and knowing is far. more a safety than holding on to one. ideology? I think it's simple, the fear of making. bad mistakes, of being wrong, should be. a motivator to take in these different. perspectives, and then weigh things,

okay? An ideology though, let's say it's. a political ideology. I want my children. to be educated in a certain way. That's. a very particular important ideology. Still means that there are choices that. you have. And then the question is, have. you made those choices in the best way? And then after you've made those. choices, what are you going to do about. it? Should you move from one place to. another? Should you what schools do you.

pick? I mean, you know, those kinds of. things. Life is just a matter of those. particular choices. And there are win-win relationships, and. there are lose-lose relationships. And. win-win relationships are a lot better. than lose-lose relationships. So, knowing the approach to that, knowing. live and let live, I can make my. choices. I can move here. I can do this. Or the mutual respect that you have for. uh it's okay, you can have your point of. view. To be less judgmental is better. I.

mean, not it's better for everybody. Is. somebody doing you harm? That's a whole. different thing. But the all of that I. think is very very important. The art of. thoughtful disagreement is the basis of. a very. uh innovative and also harmonious. society. If you want to have an. innovative harmonious society, you have. to have the art of thoughtful. disagreement. And the mediator is a very. uh important role so that you play. Um.

because like I I wrote in my other book, Principles, one of the handy things is. if you're having a disagreement, one of. you might be wrong. And how do you know? And how do you get past that? And so the. uh classic thing is to find to agree on. somebody who you mutually agree will. uh be a fair judge. Mhm. and a fair mediator. Mhm. And if you mutually agree on that. person, then you bring them then they. can get you they can help you along. And.

the exercise of going above it and. saying, "Okay, here's this disagreement. And how do we deal with disagreement and. uh our each other related to the. disagreement?" That is a good. perspective to have. Yeah. And so I think that as we look at. all those things, I think that it's so. clear that approaches like that are and. perspectives like that are very very. helpful. Yeah, and I love how you call. it an art because I remember when I was. at in my high school, I was part of my.

debating team at school. And I first got into it because I I. found public speaking natural and I. enjoyed it and you know, I I guess as a. young man, I thought it was fun to argue. with people and defeat them and things. like that. And I'd I'd go up there and. I'd I know how to pick apart someone's. argument and I'd know how to bend it and. twist it. And then I remember one of our. teachers or or coaches, he he sat me. down and he said, "Jay, do you think. you're good at this?" And I had an had a. young person's ego. I guess I was around. 15, 16 years old and I was like, "Yeah,

I'm I'm really great at this." And he. said, "Well, actually you you are just. winning because you get to arguing, but. he goes you don't actually know how to. debate." And I said, "What do you mean?". And he said, "Well, he said you're. debating based on why your point is. better, but he goes you don't know the. other person's point well enough." And. so he said, "The only way you become a. great debater is if you also deeply. study the opposing argument." He goes, "You can't just win on the merit of your. argument. You have to actually. understand where that person's coming.

from." And it changed my whole view of. debate. Yes, I'll I'll take that and I'll go one. step further. Oh, I'd love for you to, yeah. The one step further is not to win. your point of view. Yeah. The one step. further is to get a truth. Mhm. Mhm. The. real winner Mhm. is somebody who learns. something. Mhm. Absolutely. Okay, so I'm talking about in life. Maybe on the stage you say ah you won. the debate because you ended up with you.

the position you started with. Yes. And that and you won it we gave you. the most number of points. Yes. But the. real winner in life is to try to find. what the best path is. And the one who. comes out of it who has improved their. understanding and makes a step forward. is the real winner. Yes. So losing the debate in many cases can. make you a better winner. I couldn't. agree more. Couldn't agree more. And I. think I think that's the challenge. I. remember there's there's a famous. phrase. I don't know where it comes from. but there's three sides to every story.

One's yours, one's mine, and then the. truth. Right? Like there's we but we so. often feel that our side is the truth. Our way. it's such a terrible we've been raised. that way, you know? The educational. system means okay, you take a test, I. came up with the right answer, I won. Okay? Yeah. It doesn't take you through the. journey of saying I'm now having. experience and I was wrong. Mhm. And how. do I go above that? That's what one of. the big reasons why people often who are. very successful in school are not very.

successful in life. Yeah, so true. Yeah, it's so true. And I I hope that this. podcast at least reminds people that any. argument you have this week this doesn't. just apply with a debate in the. workplace or a disagreement at home with. your friends, with your family, wherever. you are if you can take a moment to. reflect on finding the truth as you. rightly said it's a healthy habit. experience. can become a good experience. Mhm. In. other words, if you approach it as a. fight. it's going to produce a lot of anxiety. Mhm.

If you uh approach it as a curiosity. and an. a game almost that you're playing with. each other, okay, to try to get at. truth, okay, then that could be really a. wonderful experience. Yeah, but somehow we feel that admitting. a mistake or admitting we were wrong or. discovering the truth makes us weak and. makes us. Bad education system, bad. you know, because it it just looks at. that particular answer and it doesn't. look at the sequence of discovering.

truth. And that's that that's a that's a. problem. It's a. it's a problem. But I found in people. that. it's not a problem that they can't get. over. I found that we have this culture in. which that's the culture, right? It. becomes obvious if you're not doing it. Yes. And when that you have in an. environment like that, then people's. behaviors change pretty quickly. I would. say in I don't know how many months. it'll vary, but maybe 18 months or so on.

that they would be curious what are they. what might they be missing and they. understand that it almost is so silly to. be a blocker of ideas. and to be antagonistic when there's a. different point of view. It's it's. really stupid to do that. Yeah. And when. they start to see themselves doing that. and asking why are they doing that, that. reflection and that then changing. behavior then produces.

changed behavior that produces rewards, better decisions and better. relationships. And when you have better. decisions and better relationships, you. have a better life. Yeah, and it and it does take time. You. said 18 months there, I think. I was. talking to my team before we kicked off. and I was just saying that I feel like. we finally in in my company have a. culture where everyone is so. self-reflective. and. self-focused on what they can improve. and how they can be better that it makes. it easier to have conversations where.

there's disagreement and debate and a. difference of opinion because everyone. is reflecting on themselves. They're not. coming into something going, "No, my. idea is the best and we're getting it. wrong." But, I think that takes a. certain kind of person and human who who. has that ability to do that with while. not losing their self-esteem. Yes, but that commit that can be. trained. Okay, here's the way it works. There is an intellectual analytical part. of our brains, logical, and so on.

And then there's this subliminal, which. means we don't even know what it's. thinking, Mhm. emotional part of our. brains that is operating that. If you. speak with somebody and you have you put. them in the position of saying, "Would. you like this or would you not like it?". And you they start to experience the two. uses, I call it, then they start to see. that they may not. make they may make a different choice. For example, if I say, "Jay, I have these thoughts about what.

you're not doing well. Would you like me. to discuss it with you? Or would you not like me to discuss it. with you?" Yeah. Or I think you have I. don't know, it could be. even a fatal flaw. Yeah. By the way, fatal flaws are not fatal because you. may not be able to change yourself, Mhm. but you can work with people who. are strong where you're weak to be able. to be successful. Yes. But, when you ask that, um those things.

that they find a barrier, it's quite. often the case that intellectually they. understand it. Yes, obviously it's. desirable for you to tell me maybe. things I don't want to hear. Mhm. Mhm. Okay? Yeah. But, I know that of course I I first of. all I want to know that you're hearing. those things. And secondly, maybe. they're true. And so that exercise of. speaking. where the intellectual and the.

subliminal are at odds. And they see that it's at odds, and then. they begin to pursue a way of being is a. training process that can help them to. say, I want that. Yes. Yes, it's almost. like the debate that we're seeing. externally is actually a debate going on. internally between them already. Yes. If. that is it. Yes. The biggest debates we have is that. debate, the emotional us with the. intellectual us. And the path really to.

success, in my opinion, is to be able to to align those. Okay, what am I feeling? And then to reflect. intellectually, is that the right thing. if I'm going to, I don't know, punch the. person or if I'm going to maybe eat what. I shouldn't eat or something. And then. intellectually I can have the. reconciliation. between that emotional and that. intellectual to make the decision. And I. get alignment, and by the way, I find. meditation helps a lot. Um I can get.

alignment. And then I can take that view. that I have and then triangulate it with. others. The probability of me making a a. much better decision has increased. immensely. And it's And all success in. life is is making the better decisions. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You. it's it's really interesting the path. that we've gone down and I and I love. it. What When you said jazz, it's like. it's definitely been like that because. we've gone down a completely different. direction, which which I love.

But you you said something. You was. like, you know, this is one of the. biggest challenges in society today. What are some of the challenges you see. in society that we should be addressing. at the core? Because this isn't just. going into like the current events. It's. really looking at root challenges that. we have. Yeah. I've been an uh global macro. investor for about well, I'm over 50. years. And one of the things that I. learned in my life is that many of the. things that surprised me just didn't. happen to me before, but they happened. many times in history. So, by studying history, I could then do.

well. So, for example, studying the. Great Depression allowed me to do very. well in the 2008 financial crisis. What's happening now is allowing me to. do very well when others are having. problems because of things that have. happened in the past. The three big. things and there are a couple more, too, but the three big things that are. happening to us is the first the. financial that's happening at a macro. level, which is the creation of a lot of. debt and the printing of a lot of money.

to um pay for that debt. So, you don't. pay it back with hard dollars and so on. And that's putting a lot of money out. there and that's producing the. stagflation that we have. And the. magnitudes of that are unprecedented. You have to go back to the 1930s to see. something like that. And so, the value. of money and what you do with money and. its economic impact. uh affects everybody.

Uh the second big influence is the. amount of internal conflict that is. existing because of larger large wealth. gaps, the largest wealth gap since the. 1930s, the largest values gaps. And then. this intransigent win-at-all-cost type. of mentality, which is reflected in. populism. In other words, a populist is. a political representative who says, "I. will fight for you and win at all cost.". And that means not compromising. And.

that win-at-all-cost is why you see the. the January 6th incidents and things. like that. We may be in a position where. neither side in the next presidential. election accepts losing in the next. presidential election. That conflict uh. produces the most irreconcilable. differences in people who are in that. mindset. And that is what causes civil. wars, types of civil wars. You can. easily imagine that the central.

government might give um directions to. the local government or people and they. say, "I'm not going to follow that law.". You might see the Supreme Court, you may. not find that. We're And that's a world. problem right now. So, that second. problem is a problem. It's particularly. a problem when you have the first. problem because the first problem. produces financial problems, which. produces stress and antagonism and says, "I have this wealth gap or whatever it. values gap, I'm going to fight for." You. have the second, that's dangerous. And.

the third is the rise of. um powers um. The United States is no longer the. dominant power. In other words, if you. look at the percentage share of world. GDP or military superiority and those. types of things. And so, you have these. rising powers and the United States and. so, you have bigger powers in bigger. conflicts. We see it obviously with. Russia today, but we see it with China. and so on. And so, the whole geographic. world order is changing. All of these.

things make for greater conflict. Mhm. Right? The financial conflict, the. financial pain, how do I deal with. inflation? Where should I keep my money? It's not the same. How do I deal with. that? Together with the internal. conflict and that external conflict. produces a very stressful and risky. period for the world. We are in a risky. period in in the world. Mhm. And so, that those are from the macro uh bigger.

perspective, the biggest influences. I. studied when I studied this I studied. last 500 years of history and to see the. arcs because the arcs typically take 100. or 150 years to have an arc, a big. cycle. And so I needed to study the 500. years and I put it out in a book, Changing World Order, and there's also a. video, free video online, uh 24 million. people seen it. It's It's easy to see um. cuz I wanted to convey the message. And. um you you see those arcs um repeating.

over time for certain reasons. I think. it's very important that people. understand those arcs. And then again, with the equanimity and the other things. that we're talking about, approach the. that set of circumstances. So that's the. mix of circumstances that I would say. creates the environment that we're in. And the key to any environment is uh to. know how to navigate it well. So in that. book I I wrote different principles of, you know, how do you deal with that kind. of an environment? Uh I'm not saying.

that environment it there's nothing sure. in what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. But it does come back. to some basics. And those basics means. how are people with each other? How am I going to be with you? Mhm. Can. we have thoughtful disagreement? Can we. have compromise? Can we have a country. in which we are more together than more. of in fight? And to understand how that. choice, that together figuring it out is. going to be a whole lot better than. fighting with each other. Yeah, and I think that's the challenge.

we're seeing is this massive disparity. between the challenge getting more and. more extreme and our skills still being. at the same level. Like that ability to. have that conversation or that debate or. that disagreement, the skill level we. have is so low. That's right. And um you. see by studying um the French. Revolution, Chinese Revolution, the. Russian Revolution, all of these Cuban. Revolutions and so on. When it starts to uh intensify, you get. past the point of listening to each.

other and then you go into the fighting. mode. And that's a cycle. So, like in the. French Revolution, there were many in. the middle who said this system is not. working and for both sides and there. should be a reformation and making move. But if you were in the middle, you were. guillotined or. anyone in the middle, you have to pick a side and fight. Wow. And that's the nature of that. dynamic. It's all within us because if.

you take any measure of living. standards, the world the world has more. wealth than it ever has. It can. greater longevity because there's. greater science. So, what we have in. totality, the world has more than it has. ever had, right? So, our opportunity is. great. If we could just work it out, right? But we can destroy each other. We. can hurt each other very badly because. of human nature. And it's the same human.

nature that existed through time. There. are lessons, just don't do this. Yeah, I. mean when when you say that, I start. thinking of. when you're studying history and you're. studying those 500 years and and I'm. going to ask you this in a second, but. there's an example that came to my mind. I was thinking about like where where. did someone get it right or where is. there progress as well in history and I. recently got to visit Rwanda. and I would never thought I would have. visited and it wasn't part of my plans. I went because.

uh one of my friends opened up a. conservation center for the environment. for gorillas and it's a. beautiful space out there. So, I went there and we got to track. with the gorillas every day and walk. with them and it's it's a really. beautiful thing because you're walking. with them in the wild. They're not, you. know, kept in a. zoo or anywhere like that. They're in. their home and you get to go and observe. them in their home, but but more. importantly, I went to the memorial the genocide. memorial museum there. And the genocide was just 20 years ago.

and you learn about the two tribes that. you know completely I think 1 million. people died in the genocide out the 10. million population that the country has. So it's huge, right? Like and what I was. blown away by was I met with some of the. survivors and I sat with them because I. was just curious and intrigued because. everyone there now has let go of the. names of the tribes. They've let go of. you know the the heritage almost from. their parents. Most of these people's. parents would have. killed each other. Like it's a it's a.

very like a violent environment but. there's such a healing, there's such a. forgiveness, there's such a path to. letting go. Now of course there's other. challenges that are going on in the. country and the poverty etc. but the. leadership has spearheaded this journey. towards collective conscience and like. bringing people together and recognizing. that we're more alike than we are. different. And I was just astounded at. how a country 20 years ago in that much. turmoil is is rising from that. Uh did.

you find any examples in history where. people did have positive mediation? Well uh. what you're describing is the uh is the. typical cycle so I'm just going to make. clear what the typical cycle is. The typical cycle is that you have a. war, a civil war or an international war. that you have a fight for power. and then you have a horrendous. experience, okay? And then out of that comes a new order.

Oh god. Comes a new system. Somebody is. dominant. Like. Spanish Civil War. is brothers and fighting each other and. so on. A horrendous experience. And then. some force gains the power, wins and it. becomes such a horrendous experience. The French Civil War, the all of these. Civil Wars. They become such a a. experience. um that uh nobody wants it again.

And so the pendulum swings. So that you then. don't have a war. All right, so for. example, my father um. and that generation fought in a war. Mhm. Okay? In the beginning parts of. these wars, they're into the war, you. know, they're brave and they're going to. go there and then the war is so. horrendous. um and it goes on so long. And it by the. way, it's a great equalizer. They. destroy wealth, so wealth equality then.

becomes greater. And they go into that. environment and then it just it it ends. Mhm. And then when it ends, there's so. much hurting and so much not wanting war. that you come to a period of peace and. prosperity. And the cycle goes for peace. and prosperity. And then a new. generation comes along, okay, who has. not experienced. uh the war and then comes into that and. says, uh we will fight and so on. Like. our generation has not experienced those.

things. And yet they're intransigent in. terms of those fights. And they sort. Many people could say, "Hell yes, I'm. I'm going to fight." And then you go. through that cycle. So that's how the. cycle normally works. How do we then make sure that people. understand the ramifications and. consequences of. I think that's why I put out that book. because. I want people to worry about this. I have a principle, if you worry, you.

don't have to worry. And if you don't. worry, you need to worry. Okay? If you worry, then you will. take care not to do the thing you're. worrying about. If you don't worry about it, you're. probably going to do it. Okay? So when I. look at the set of circumstances, I. believe that we as a society, are at a. juncture. We recognize this conflict or. can we have win-win relationships? Can. we compromise? Can we have this.

together? Can we work well together or. not? Okay, we're at that. I think by. seeing those alternatives. and and having a middle I I you know, I. pray for a strong middle. I pray for. avoiding the extremes and the fighting. between those extremes. And maybe if. that's the case, then we will get it. And it's hard when the system's been set. up for the extremes, right? Like it's. difficult when I think it's more human.

nature than the system. Like, okay, we've had this democratic system. over through a period of time, but we. had one civil war and we've had others. How are we going to be? Democracy worked. very, very well for a lot of times for. in a variety of ways. I mean, I don't. have to recount them, but at the same. time uh the history of democracy in. cycles. Plato in his book The Republic. tells about these cycles over and over. again. And and the real risk to. democracy is anarchy because you can't.

have strong leadership because. everybody's fighting over everything and. it produces a chaos and that chaos. becomes intolerable and everybody wants. to fight and then you have the fight. So, I think it's more human nature than. a system. Yeah, human nature just goes. in that direction regardless. It's also. like um people who went who didn't have. anything. and are broke and are in the worst. possible positions. and a society that likes that and then.

they come out and then they work well. together, they make things and then they. can become decadent. The society can. become decadent. I I think our society. is decadent now. I think this it's got a. problem in that um the lower levels of. society I have intimate contact through. my wife particularly who is helping the. what is called disengaged and. disconnected population of high school. students in Connecticut. Those are.

students who disconnected means they're. no longer in school. They're out. They. don't know where they are. And disengaged means that they have an. absentee rate of greater than 25% and. they're failing classes. 22% of the high. school students in Connecticut are one. of those. One out of five education. isn't working. They're living in. poverty. We have created a. self-reinforcing cycle that in children. have. we didn't create an acceptable bottom.

You create a situation where children. guns. and gangs and children can't walk to. school safely. Shootings regularly in. Hartford, Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut just right up the road from. us. Okay, exists. Pockets throughout. this. And then equal opportunity. We do not. have equal opportunity. And to. simultaneously. have a situation in which we are not. taking care of the basics, but we are.

really over you know doing the luxuries. is creating a set of circumstances. that's a problem I think. And so. I think that's. how man is with each other. So you it's. a cycle. If you get spoiled like this is. the thing I worry about. you know our family does make sure our. family doesn't get spoiled if the kids. don't get spoiled because what happens. is then. they're not strong.

That's a cycle. Yeah. You know, it's. like three generations the classic three. generation cycle. You know, somebody. works hard they make it they have those. sound values. Then what happens is then. they inherited it and then they are in a. position where, you know, they don't. have the same and they're spoiled and. they're and they say, "I don't have to. work as hard. I'm living off of what. I've gotten and why don't I enjoy life?". and so on. And then while people around. them may be are suffering and you know, but they I see it in.

I live in Greenwich, Connecticut. It's. Bridgeport, Connecticut. People just. don't have contact. They don't see it. And so there are these cycles that. happen. With many of them, they. coincide. The cycle that I'm talking. about about attitude, about protecting. and how do we make a good society for. the most of it. Let's say the basic idea. that we should strive for equal. opportunity. I mean that's a fundamental. thing. Equal opportunity, right? But. that doesn't become the banner that. either it is pursuing. So these cycles.

of conflict, wealth gaps, and all of. those things exist. Yeah, it seems like. to me when I hear that, it perpetuates. and the cycle continues because it seems. that not enough people have experienced. Exactly. Right, yeah. The cycle lasts. uh longer than a lifetime. So you're. only going to experience that piece of. the cycle Mhm. in your lifetime, right?

Wars, depressions, okay, they happen. throughout history. Are we not going to. go into a war again? Are we not going to. have another depression? That's of. course at some point we're going to have. those things, okay? But we were lucky. 1945 was the end of the last war. We. began a new era. We had the cycle in. which things got better and better and. and there was a quality, better. equality. I know the world I went was. born into. I was lucky. I was born in. 1949. I had two parents who could take.

care of me. I went to a public school. and I came out to a world which for me. was a world of equal opportunity, okay? You when you have those types of things. and then things evolve and we're in a. very different part of the cycle now. The amount of printing of money, the. internal conflict, the external. conflict, those types of things. We're. in a different environment now and we. have to recognize that and why? We never. experienced it. Yeah. If we experienced it. and had that that terror for it or the.

choice of what could be, the joy of the. alternative, we would be in a different. position. Yeah, it also sounds like we. haven't experienced that but we also. haven't experienced what it feels like. to live in a culture of higher values. Right? So like when you were talking. about earlier and I'm going a bit more. micro but to take it macro again, when. you said and you know, we create an. organization where it's about meaningful. work, meaningful relationships, you. know, uh radical transparency, if you've never worked in a culture like.

that, you don't know the value of it and. therefore you naturally have a culture. of disagreement, arguments, disconnection. And so it's almost like. how do we get to a point where. everyone does it like you'll always go. and I'm going very micro here but. you'll always go for the junk food. unless you've had healthy tasty food, right? It's just natural because we've. been programmed to look for sugars, carbs, fats. You'll go for that unless. you've had healthy tasty food.

accessible. Yes. And so on a macro level. the challenge again comes that if you. have junk values and you have healthy. values, you naturally go for the junk. values because that's what served you. And so it's like how do you give people. at scale an experience of how living. with equal opportunity or other healthy. values is actually better for everyone, right? Like it's how do we do that? Is. that Is that possible? I. I I I I. I think it's uh the same as. good parenting,

good mentoring, and the good work that. you're doing. Right? There people on this broadcast. and you're helping a lot of people. And. I'm trying in my way to do the same. And. then um it's up here, comes in here, and then it has to be that visceral. experience it so that you start to. experience the rewards of it so that. you're afraid of not doing it. Right? Habit.

Okay. The I talked about 18 months. Okay, you can change the behavior in 18. months. By and large, behavioral change is like. an 18-month thing. If you take um somebody's Alcoholics. Anonymous or if you take other things, can you develop the subliminal. um. cue that you're working off of to. produce a reaction that becomes. instinctual so you do it. That is the. path. And wherever it comes from,

whether it's coming from this, that, whatever we're doing, and then action. that's taken to change one's habit and. then experience the rewards of it, that. you know that's the cycle. I'm just. answering you scientifically, right? I'm. not psychologically scientifically. That's what it is. It's not a. philosophical answer, it's just the way. it is. Yeah. No, but that's what it is. It's. It's building a new culture and the. culture starts with each individual. building it within themselves. Right. And it was See, you're making.

another good point. It's those things. that I just said. in a reinforcing. environment in which others share those. things. And then it makes it the better because. that group reinforcing it, which is a. culture, has a great great power over what's. going to happen. Culture is destiny. Culture is destiny. Well, what are some. of the things that you think. are after all these years, after all. this study, after all this research have.

become healthy things to aspire for. I. think to be a human means to aspire. Like we're always seeking, aspiring, wanting something. What do you think are healthy things or. how can people discover? Because I think. we all. you know, everyone could go down the. path and think, "Okay, there was a. time." It's what you said. Like there. was a time when all I wanted was money. or success. And then often when people. get that, they go, "Well, that was good, but that wasn't it." Is the world to. just seek and aspire for what you feel. at the time and then change it when you. get there because you realize that.

wasn't it? Or are there certain healthy. characteristics or values that you think. people can aspire for? I do uh agree on the journey and the. evolutionary process. of in other words, you go after. something. You experience it, you learn, and you evolve, and you're And so it's I. believe it's an evolutionary process, okay? So I think it is evolve well. and. contribute to evolution. If I was to say. for me what my aspiration is is evolve.

well and contribute to evolution. To. know yourself. That's why um to know. yourself means know your nature. I put out a free test for everybody who. wants it. It's called Principles You. It's it's the universally. determined like the most effective test. Principles You. It's free online. You. can go online and and understand. yourself and it helps you understand. other types of people. So knowing one's.

nature. and then finding the path for that. nature. is a very important thing. And number three, I would say. is meaningful work and meaningful. relationships. Yeah. For most people. If. you have something you're into and it's. a passion and you have wonderful. relationships, It's. for almost all people wonderfully. rewarding. So I would say it's, you. know, those those three things.

Right, those are beautiful answers. It's. always such a. joy and pleasure to talk to you. I I. always learn so much and and you you set. the tone when you said jazz, you you gave us full permission to just. go off piste and and really co-create. and I I love where we got to. I, you. know, when we spoke last week and we. were saying, "What should we talk. about?" I. and I never go in this direction, but. I'm so satisfied by this meaningful. conversation because I think we went. somewhere we didn't plan to and that. always feels like a better end than what.

you did plan to as well. Well, this was like playing good jazz. But this isn't the end. No, no, no, please. Like I'm what I'm telling you is that. I'm coming back at you, man, right? Oh, okay. So I am going to you asked me a lot of. questions, okay? But what I'm going to. do is I'm coming at you for your. principles, okay? I want you articulate. and I'm going to give you those things. because I want that to be put out, okay? And distributed and I want people to. vote them up for the best situation. How.

do you deal with. a divorce, a death in the family, whatever. I'm going to give you a bunch. of those types of questions. What's your. formula for success, okay? So imagine. now there's Jay Shetty's and there's. other people there that they can vote. those things up to get whatever they. think is the best, which is essentially. creating the principles for themselves. or almost the way of life, the religion. for themselves that they think is going. to be best. So I think that's of.

paramount importance. I can't wait for that. I'm so excited to. I'm so excited to contribute, more. excited to use. Uh it sounds like a fantastic resource. Are you you're developing that right. now, yeah? And and the goal is that it'll be every. area of life. Every area of life. of life. Business, family That's right. I want. on anything to give the principles, right? And you just push the button you. say, I need help with I've got a I don't. know a ADD 4-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Push the button. Mhm. What's the.

best principle? That'd be amazing. Okay. That's what I'd like to do. So, tell me in terms of the journey of life, what are you going after? Mhm. And why? How do you look at your journey. of life? What are you going after and. why? And that's you. And then. what do you think other people should do. for their journey of life because they. may go after different things. So, give. me the more general answer that may not.

be. uh just yours. Mhm. Mhm. So, there's a. few steps to this. The first thing I'd say as a general is. that there are. four really important decisions that I. believe we have to make in life. And the first principle is how do I feel. about myself? I think that's a really important. decision and choice we get to make every. day is who am I and how do I feel about. who I am and who I want to be. How do I.

feel about myself? Now, when we get there, I'm going to go. to a principle that's going to help. that. I'm going to pull pull it out of. you, okay? Yeah. So, what do you do? Do you then. as you're making these choices Mhm. uh. say, I'm experiencing this and therefore. I feel better. And then therefore that. helps guide me on what I should do. Yeah, so I think with that one it I. think we're very aligned on the aspect. of nature. I think we're very aligned on. that. It's why I love the principles you.

assessment. Like the idea of knowing. that there is a wiring in the way that. we've been created and evolved that. allows us to be effective. And so, for. me I have a I have a. uh short formula for that and it's. passion plus strength plus service. So I. believe that your passion is what makes. you happy. and when you use your passion in the. service of others it makes other people. happy. And so when you add your passion. to your strengths and you add it to.

service or contribution. It equals what? It equals purpose. Okay, perfect. purpose, yeah. Okay. So people have to have a purpose. Okay. Mhm. And that equals the passion. passion plus the strengths. strength plus contribution or service, the ability to use that in the service. of others. we go. Yeah. There's a formula there. Mhm. Right, there's a principle. Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's the general. Mhm. That's the general like that's the first. that's only the first decision and. that's the formula for the first.

decision. Overarching. Overarching, yeah. Like that for me has been my my. dedication is to help people figure out. their purpose because I believe that if. we have people of purpose they'll be. better people, they'll be better. partners, they'll be better parents, they'll be better professionals because. I think what's missing in the world is a. feeling of individual and collective. value. I see. And then we they know that. they're getting it Mhm. because of how. they feel about themselves. Mhm. Yes, I.

think when you yeah when you have. purpose. you I what I've what's fascinating about. purpose is I think one of the and this. is probably quite a nuance but. one of the signs of a lack of purpose is. that we envy everyone. We we want to be. like everyone. We look at what someone. does and we're like I wish I could do. that. I wish I could do that. When one. finds a sense of purpose one can. actually appreciate someone else for. what they do really well because you.

realize that's their nature and that's. what they were born to do and this is. mine and this is what I was born to do. and so there's a lack of envy I think is. a great indicator to a sense of purpose. Like I I love what you do. I admire what. you do. I could never do what you did. over all these years. Not because I'm. insignificant or invaluable or I'm not. smart. It's just because my smarts are. different and I'm I'm meant to be. following a different path. And we so agree on. knowing what your nature is and getting. that feedback. Yeah. And by the way, I I we both like.

principles. You as a way as a step to. toward that. What about the life arc? Yes. The second most important decision. applies to the first is what do I do for. money? I think that's one of the That's. the same and that applies to what we. said, yeah. So, that that applies to the. two things. Those first two things are. solved by the equation we just. discussed. Like, what do I do for money? That's an important decision we have to. make in life. Everyone needs to make. money. Everyone needs to pay bills. So, that's already there. The third most. important decision we make in life is. I don't want to skip over that. Do you.

Can we drill into that or should we go. to the next one? No, so we can we can drill into that. I. think Yeah, we can drill into that. Absolutely, yeah. do you approach that question? I think that's what I'm saying. Some. parts of it apply to the nature aspect. And I think the part that is missed. mostly in that, and I love the author of. Flow who talked about the. beautiful synergy between our challenge. and our skills. So, he said that we. experience flow when our challenge meets. our skills. When our skills are high and.

our challenge is low, we feel bored. We. feel disconnected. We feel disengaged. But when our challenge is high and our. skills are low, we feel depressed. We. feel lost. We feel confused. And so, if. you want to feel experience flow in. life, we have to find where our skills. meet our challenge. And to me, that's. where how what we do for money, I think. one of the biggest mistakes we make is. today people are only focusing on. passion and not building their skills. and their strengths. And so, to me, when. you're figuring out what you want to do. for money, you have to figure out what. skill am I I'm to get really good at?

What am I genuinely willing to. discipline myself to become phenomenal. at? Right. So, and if I can do that, then. that's a good thing to do. You're saying and which I I agree with. and as we covered, know your nature and. and discover it along the way. Um but also for me it's uh if I can make. my work and passion the same thing and. not forget about the money part. Yes. Um then I am going to probably be. successful because I'll be happy. I'll.

also be good at what I'm doing and the. money part is an important part that you. can't forget about. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think um another principle ideally is. um to be self-sufficient plus. What I. mean by self-sufficient plus is that. that um you're not dependent on any on. the money coming from anybody else if. you can, right? That because you then. have if it doesn't come from anyone else. in that way. First, you're raising.

yourself to the level to be. self-sufficient. And I don't really care. whether that's at a. a high level of income or a low level of. income. The important thing is that. you're happy, that you pursue goals um. and that happiness and and that. particular thing. But if you're. self-sufficient plus, you means you're. free, you're self-sufficient, and it. means also that you can help others if. you because you got some plus. Um what. are your thoughts about um where that. that's one of mine. What about yours in.

terms of that measurement about money? How do you approach money? What is the. right amount of money? Yeah, I I would. say that we're very aligned. I think the. right amount of money is what's right. for you and what you're creating. But I. love the self-sufficient plus because I. I had this conversation I I had to. really rewire my relationship with money. as I grew older because I was kind of. trained to believe that I always needed. just enough. I always grew up with just. enough. I saw zero in my bank account. I. started working when I was 14 and saw.

zero in my bank account for many, many. years and that was fine. It was like, okay, I had just enough. I paid for that. thing. Okay, if I have zero, that's. good. Like I lived like that from 14 to. 21. And then when I went when I went. back into the world of work, I just. realized that was not the way to live. And it wasn't I I lived that way because. I had luxuries or it was just what I. had. It wasn't that I was wasting money. It was just that I never knew how to. make it, keep it, save it, invest it. And so when I rewired my relationship. with money, I love self-sufficiency plus.

because to me I also realized that being. able to contribute, being able to give back, being able to. pass on was such a healthy part of it. But so often we're trained that. simplicity is having enough for. yourself. But having enough should. include being able to also give, whatever that may be. Same experience. happened to me and we're talking about. the life arc. Like for me up until I I. guess it was probably it was certainly. in my early 20s. I was exactly like you. Like I like to do the things I like to.

do. If I've got enough money to do them, I'm having a blast. I don't need any. more than that. Yes. And then I got to a point where I. started to calculate. how many weeks I could live if not a. dollar came in. Okay. If I could live Can I live a. month? Can I live 12 months? Yes. Um I would calculate if I'm spending it. this and I have this and I wanted to. live. have enough freedom of that worry that I.

could have that amount. Um and I and I. got to the point where. uh it was about 3 years. If If I could. have 3 years that I knew like I'm. downtime and I'll that gives me enough. wiggle room. And so I started to realize. that if I took the the of money I had by. the rate at which I spent it. And I calculated how long it would last. That that gave me that kind of.

perspective. And that And that And then. I have a family. And then as I start to think of the. family, that number changes. And of. course what like you say, everybody then is an investor. Because everybody's how has that has to. put it somewhere, got to know about it. But I had the same experience. I think. that experience is part of the life art. You know, in the earlier part of your. life. It's It's normal. Then you get to a. certain other part of your life. Yeah.

And And I think the other thing for me. and and the measure that I give people. is that let's say when you start your. working life, hopefully it isn't this. case, but I think for the majority of. people it will be, when you first start. your career, 100%. of your time at work is potentially. doing something you don't love. And I. think that's good for you. Yeah, that's. good for you. It's important. It builds. resilience, it builds character, it's. great. But I think success and happiness. to me is that as life goes on that. percentage starts to get lower and lower. and lower. Well, I think it is I I think it's just.

that you do things, for me anyway, it's. that I do things that I don't love. because I get things that I love more. Yes, I I couldn't agree more. I I say. that about my life today when everyone's. like, "Oh Jay, you must love your life.". And I'm like, "I do plenty of things. that I don't love to do in order to make. time and space to do what I love to do. and do more of." I fully agree. But I. think that percentage needs to shift cuz. you don't want 100% of your time at work. to be doing something you don't love. Another principle I would say, and I. want to get your thoughts on I'm going.

to pull out your principle, is. own it and don't be the victim. Uh what what I mean. that person. who describes. you know, this terrible thing and also. tends to blame others. Mhm. I didn't. this thing happen and that thing. happened. Mhm. Is probably not looking. at it as what do I do in this chess-lit. game of life.

Yeah. that is now having these things. come at me. Yeah. Where if you own it and you say, "Listen, this is your game. Yeah. This. is your life and these things come at. you Yeah. and now it's your move and you. got to make those moves right. So, you're. thinking not woe is me, but you're. thinking, "Okay, now I've got to do. that.". Yes. I think that's an important approach to. life. What do you think of and what is. or your version of something like that? Feel free to totally disagree with.

No, no. I I I I wish I mean. I'm not saying I wish I disagreed with. you. I I don't because I think there's a. lot of similarities. I've always called. it change the situation, change. yourself. And it's like I think a lot of. us those are two choices. And I think a. lot of the time we put a lot of energy. into changing a situation. And to me that's a lot of the time. that's out of our control what we were. discussing. Like I can't decide the. weather today. I can't decide whether. someone's going to like me because of. how I behave with them. I can't change.

someone's complete energy or aura. towards me. I can't always change the. situation, but I can change how I view. it. I can change myself. And Wayne Dyer. had a beautiful statement where he said. that. when we change the way we look at. things, the things we look at change. And I think that's always been very. important to me is that. if I can't change the situation, how can. I look at it differently? How can I. change the lens through which I'm. perceiving this? So, I hear that connected to the thing. that you said earlier about whether. you're feeling good for yourself. Yeah.

And it brings up another is don't worry. so much about the approval of others. Yes, yeah, that's a great one. I mean, that's that's a huge one. I mean, that's. at the core of so much of this. It's I I. talk about in in my book Think Like a. Monk, I talk about the four C's for the. four types of people you'll meet in your. life. And the problem is we're trying to. find one person to do all of four of. them. So, some people in your life are. going to have character. You go to them. because you know they have high. character. That's why you trust them. They may not always be around, they may. not always be available, they may not be.

you know, they may not be next to you. every day, but you go to them because. you know if you want to make a decision. with high integrity, that person is a. person of high character. Then you have someone in your life who's. consistently there. You have someone. who's always been your friend, they've. always been around. They don't. necessarily give the best advice or the. worst advice, but they're consistent. They're there, they're with you, they. they will go through the trenches with. you, and they're consistent. They don't. always have the best next move or the. best idea or insight, but they have. value in the fact that they're loyal, they're consistent. But that is their. value in knowing that. Uh the third is.

care, someone who cares about you. I. always give the idea of my my mother. Like, if I called my mom right now, I'd. say, "Mom, I was just with Ray, I just. interviewed Ray Dalio, I learned all". she'd just be like, "Have you eaten. today?" Like, that's what my mom would. ask me. She's like, "What did you have. for breakfast?" I'd be like, "Mom, like. I just spoke to Ray." And she'd be like, "No, no, no, what did you have for. breakfast? What are you having for. lunch?" Right? That's It's someone who. cares for me. I'm not necessarily going. to go to my mom to ask if advice for my. podcast, but I know she's the person. that cares for me. Like, I know she'll. be there for me no matter what. Uh and. the final one is competence. There are. people in our life who are high.

competence. They may not care about us, they may not have high character, but. they're very competent in what they do, and I may take advice from them in that. So, to me, knowing who to get approval. of in different areas. If I try and get. career approval from my mom, she may. never give it to me because she's not. happy for me to be on a plane, and she's. not happy for me to be running around. and missing meals. She she doesn't. approve of that. Uh at the same time, I. don't need uh my spiritual teacher, for. example. I go to him because he's of. high character, but if I asked him for.

business advice, he'd say to me, "Well, this is my. integrity principle, but he's not. necessarily going to give me investment. advice." So, I think becoming very clear. about who I went to approval for what. became very useful. You see, um. Yeah. these are coming out nice and uh. quickly. It's like playing jazz, you. know? There's something that happens. really quickly and it happens. But, it's. very important to slow that down cuz I'm. going to be able to take this stuff. Okay, yes. I have it in the book. Oh, yeah. no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Yes. so that somebody can look it up. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes. is going to be This is. why it's so great. Yeah. Because I can take what what. you've done and we can put it there. And. then somebody says, "When I go for that. moment, how do I push the button. Yes. and get the answer?" Yeah. Right? It's going to be brilliant. Okay, that that's This is an This is an. important thing. It's going to be fantastic. Right. So, I'm going to just keep pulling these. I love that. I love these things from. you, right? Yeah, I love it. I I can't wait to do. more. And and you know, I won't We won't.

go into depth on these. Decision three. and decision four, the third most important decision we. make in life is who do we give our love. to and who do we receive love from. Mhm. I think it's a huge decision. The. most Maybe the most. May- Maybe the most. One of the most important. the most important decisions. important decision I I was just at my. I'm sorry for the. No, I want to hear from you, please. just at my. one of my son's weddings and I was just. describing what it is and the peace that. I have. And I was making the point which.

I truly believe is who you pick as your. life partner. Mhm. The person you wake up with in the. morning uh and who is in that life. partner Yeah. is the most important. decision you can make. Probably. It's. It's certainly right up there. So, you're touching on that. So, go I didn't. mean to. No, no, I want to I mean, no. Hearing. about your son's wedding, that's. beautiful. I fully agree. It's such a. huge decision. hear you saying. It's exactly that. And and I think for. me, I broke that down from from.

research, from coaches, from working. with clients in that space who have been. married for a lot longer than I have. And of course it would be wonderful to. get your feedback. And and wonderful Jim. who's both of our book agents as well. who's had a very long marriage himself. And so I'm I'm always stress testing my. ideas with Jim. I'm saying, "Jim, what. do you think of this?". But I came with three things. The first. thing is this is the obvious one. It's. like liking someone's personality. You. have to like them. They have to like. you. That's obvious. We know that. There's a sense of compatibility more. than just chemistry. I think people.

often I was likening recently an analogy. of like chemistry is like a spark. Like. you light a match. There's like this. spark. You hear the sound. You see the. fire. But then the flame's going to burn. out. The match is going to last like. this long. But if you use that match to. burn a candle, that candle's going to. give scent forever. It's going to last. It's going to burn and be beautiful for. so many people to experience. So that's. that compatibility piece. The second. piece which I think is rare is like a. deep awareness and respect for each. other's values. So I think if you really.

love someone, they don't necessarily. have the exact same values. I don't. think they have They may have similar. versions, but they're never exactly the. same. And I think respecting and being. aware and encouraging the other person. towards their values is really healthy. So I always give the example of me and. my wife. My wife, her first value is. family. That's her number one value. And. my number one value is purpose. They're. very different and they can be. conflicting often. I want to be on a. plane when we have a family event. I'm. I'm at an event when we're doing this.

But we found a way of respecting each. other's values and then showing each. other that we respect it. But we don't. forcing each other to have the same. value because we're different people. And then the third and final one I found. is uh. a dedication. to helping that person get to their. goals, for them to reach their. potential. That I love you so much that. I'm going to help you get to your goal, not my projection of who you should be. or who I wish for you to be, but who you. want to be. I'm going to help you. because I think that's the greatest act.

of love is that if you really love. someone, you want to see them become the. best version. Well, I'm very excited about taking. these and putting them in the writing. and pushing the button so everybody can. excited. And they're all in my new book, 8 Rules of Love. So, that comes out next. year, 31st Jan. called? 8 Rules of Love. Okay, it's interesting. 8 in there. Have you taken the test, the. five types of love? I have, yes. Yeah. Yes, very good. It's a great test, yeah. It was so interesting to see it. We did. it at uh family, you know, my my son's. daughter-in-laws and everything. What. are yours? I'm interested. What are your.

love languages? I want to know. Well, um I'm. um. acts of love. Okay, acts of service, yeah. I am not the compliments. Yes. Yeah, not words of affirmation, yeah. Words of I'm not words of affirmation. Right, right? Yeah. Don't give me the. words. Okay. Good to know. And it's so. interesting because. um. I. I see it all the time in a our. relationship. Yes. So, being able to articulate that. Yes. I forgot what the other ones are.

There's There's words of affirmation, acts of service, gifts, touch, and time. And time. Quality time, yeah. Yeah, quality time. That's important, too. But, I see it. when we did the little test. Yeah. and we did it, we could see where. sometimes it was going like that. Yes, yeah. Oh, yeah, completely. It can be. totally opposite. Yeah. In other words, I'm I'm giving you. something Yeah. and you're not. appreciating it because you're looking. for the other type.

Exactly. And it's so handy to do. And. these personality profile tests are. valuable in finding out our nature and. operating that way. So, I'm looking. forward to your book. No, thank you. I I I think what you're. doing in extracting principles and. putting them in one place, I think. that's really special because yeah, if I. went through my first book and now my. second book, there's so many principles. in there. But, like you said, you know, you have. to flick pages to find them. To be able. to just search into an engine is is a. brilliant idea. I created a.

what I call a coach, and it's in this. this app Principles for Action. And the. way it works is, cuz I was thinking, what do I need an answer to? And then it gets you to the right. principle. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you have a book. of principles, you don't have that. access. So, the app is needed to be able to say, okay, here I am. I'm in this situation. Boom, button, get the right ones. Cuz.

you'll never find them. You'll never. raise that book again. Yeah. Why not use. an app? Yeah, absolutely. Much quicker. And and. and easily accessible. And. I think the the fourth one, to finish it. off to finish off my my piece at least, was um the fourth most important. decision in the world is that we make in. our lives is uh how do we serve the. world? How do we how do we help the. world? And it's interesting to hear you. because those four decisions that I. talked about, they move through the four. stages of life as defined by the Vedas, which is what I studied as a monk. And. so, the four stages, which I've.

reconfigured into my language, are love. yourself, love others, heal from pain, and then love the world. And I feel like that's the journey that. we're being encouraged to go on in life. is we first have to learn to love. ourselves. Second, we learn to love. others, wives, kids, families. Uh third, we have. to actually heal from the pain of love. because sometimes love can. you know, there's a few thorns along the. way, there's a few challenges, and I. feel sometimes we hold on to that. bitterness. And when you cure that.

bitterness, you actually get the ability. to love everyone, love everyone you. meet, and love the world. So, the fourth. stage is how do we learn to serve the. world? How do we contribute to the. world, which you're demonstrating at. this stage in your life where you're. like, I want to give back. I want to. I want to help. And so, that's the fourth one. And it's so wise. I think that I didn't. really appreciate. in the middle part of my life. the power of love. Mhm. I think that. there's accomplishment and you're. focusing on accomplishment.

Yeah. And sometimes that has conflict. and you do the conflict. Um but you don't realize. how enjoyable love is. How enjoyable. giving love is. Yes. And receiving love is or being in a. loving community, which is also one of. the reasons that the environment that. that I perceive now is so repugnant to. me. Mhm. Because it has so much the. opposite of love. It has so much hate.

It has so much anger. It has so much. fighting in it. That's so destructive. That's so toxic. So, that love and a. society that has that, oh, it is true. that the greatest joy you get is that. experience of helping others and them. and the connections and all of that and. it produces a an environment that you. want to be in. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that for those who are. listening and and love feels. ethereal or elusive, I I think as a.

basic for me love is like safety plus. understanding, right? If someone feels. safe and someone feels understood, that. is the beginning of love. It isn't love. in itself, but people need to feel a. sense like I feel safe with you and I. feel understood by you. You know, that's. the beginnings of that feeling and in a. workplace, safety and understanding are. very core aspects that could easily be. implemented and even in a relationship, family. My my view of what love is. is that I.

feel what you feel. so that it brings me happiness. Yeah. Cuz you have a relationship. that ah, you're well. Yes. Ah, you're. happy. Yes. And and that brings me happiness. That's what Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, feeling other people's pain, feeling other people's love, like being. able to have that ability. It hurts me. Yeah, if you have. me joy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that is love. That is that is really beautiful. And.

and yeah, I think that's what. It's so crazy we've talked about so many. different topics today and it's amazing. how how love is that one unifying force. that we're all seeking for, but it's. almost like. there's just so many we've created so. many barriers to love. because we think love makes us weaker to. some degree. We feel that feeling. someone else's pain or feeling someone. else's joy somehow takes it away from us. and and think like a monk, I correlate. the.

I I say that there are there are. unlimited seats in the theater of. happiness. But we're living in a world that has. made us believe there are a finite. number of seats. Because now, if you. want to go see a big sports game, there. are finite number of seats. There are. finite number of VIP tickets. And so. that mindset has made us believe that. even in the theater of happiness, there. are finite number of seats, but the be. reassured that your name is on a seat. And and you can claim it. And no one. else can have that seat. It's there. waiting for you. And Well, for me, love.

works in that it reinforces my. well-being and it reinforces my joy. because it's part of that evolutionary. process because I also get what your. happiness is and that's the sense. because it's interesting psychologist. in terms of what is produced happiness. They show that past a certain basic. level of income or money, there's not a. correlation between happiness and and.

money. Yes. The highest is community. Mhm. Across societies. If you have a. sense of community, Yeah. you have a higher level of happiness, you live longer, all of those things. That is love, that is connectivity. I. think that's a real power. Yeah, it's it's almost like saying like. it's not about the journey, it's not. about the destination, it's about. community. Like that's the key thing. Meaningful work and meaningful. relationships is a powerful combination.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I could do this with forever. I. I mean, we could literally I mean, I'm so glad you did this. Yeah. Yeah, this is beautiful. I'm I'm so. happy that you flipped it back on me. I. got to share some things that I haven't. really talked about in that way yet. So, I'm really happy. more. Yes, I I'm all in. it. You have to help me organize it so. that we put those principles in a good. way. that is such a genius idea. Honestly, I'm all in. Any any help and support I. can give to formatting, sharing, amplifying, I'm I'm in. Great. It sounds incredible, honestly. The.

world will be a better place. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. What. is What is it called? This is the app. This is on the app or this is separate. to the app? Well, this is going to be built out on. the on the app. We have the means by which we can. collect them now. We haven't built the. voting them up yet. Got it. So, there's going to be on. connected to this, Yeah. all people will input their. principles and we're going to have all. of these things and they can go on and. they say Jay Shetty's principles. Yeah. That's so cool. Um that'll exist. That's so cool.

Um and take a clip of this tape and put. it on or whatever it is so that people. can see it. Uh but the voting up we're building. So, that has to be built. brilliant. And we have a a tool called. the coach that will help to get them to. the right principles, but that's got to. be built up more. That's amazing. Well, we can figure out the coach as well. There there'll be some synergies there. Oh, okay. I'll show you the coach. me that. Yeah. we have the first version of it and I'd. love your feedback and we can talk about. how to do that. Yeah. It's cool. Amazing. Everyone who's.

been listening and watching, I hope. you've enjoyed the jazz. Uh I I can't. play any instruments anymore. I don't. know if Ray still plays any. dad was a jazz musician, and I can't. play. It breaks my heart. Yeah, I I learned the piano and the drum. kit, and now I can't play either. But, either way, I hope you enjoyed the. music. Uh I'm so grateful to sit down. with Ray to have this free-flowing. conversation. These are my favorite. conversations where I literally feel. like we're just co-creating, collaborating, inventing together. Uh I. highly recommend that you grab a copy of. the journal, My Principles. It's out. right now. Uh we referred to a lot of.

different things, books and apps in the. conversation. We'll put them all in the. show notes, so you have access to each. of them. We have interviews with Ray on. Principles You, uh Changing World Order, and Principles as well on the show. So, if you want to go back and reference. those, please feel free. A big thank you. to Ray for being so generous with your. time. I think we've been together for I. think. of hours. I'm I'm so grateful. Honestly, Ray. This is fun to play jazz with you. Ray and Jay. If you want even more. videos just like this one, make sure you.

subscribe and click on the boxes over. here. I'm also excited to let you know. that you can now get my book, Think Like. a Monk, from thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description to make. sure you order today.