Jordan Peterson: How to Spot Hidden Manipulators (Most People Miss These Signs) @JordanBPeterson

to be open to learning does mean at. least to some degree always asking what. am I doing wrong what do I have to give. up what do I have to let go of what do I. have to transform that could be very. painful there isn't anything better that. you can do with failure no matter how. unjust than to learn from one of the. most articulate men of our time clinical. psychologist turned culture Warrior Dr. Jordan Peterson The Man Who prefer. short-term mating opportunities are. Psychopathic narcissistic acuan and and.

sadistic so one of the unintended. consequences of the sexual Revolution is. that the freed up women have been. delivered to the psychopathic men most. people who have post-traumatic stress. disorder don't have it because they were. hurt they have it because they. encountered someone who wanted to hurt. them people can go through all sorts of. horrible things and not be traumatized. you wait till you tangle with someone. who's malevolent boy you will not be the. same person afterward the dark tetrad.

males are differentially attractive to. women mostly younger and naive women how. does a woman even begin to detect or. notice the. difference the number one Health and. Wellness podcast Jett Jett the one the. only. Jett I feel so many people today I'm. sure you hear this a lot as well they. feel that the.

surrounded by toxicity whether it's at. home whether it's at work whether it's. online they feel like they're in a space. where they can't become more they they. at least from their perspective well I. think some of that's actually a. technical problem and I I think it's an. extremely serious problem in our society. so we've invented these new. communication Technologies which we're. utilizing now the long form discussion. seem to be pretty radically on the.

positive side of that I would say but. the discourse on places like Twitter. Facebook in comment sections and so. forth is pretty degenerate and I think. the reason for that is that the evolved. mechanisms that we use in face-to-face. real world discourse have been Stripped. Away in the electronic domain and the. problem with that is twofold the first. problem is the exploitative sadistic.

Psychopaths have free reign because. they're not held responsible for their. utterances they're Anonymous they get. rewarded for the propagation of their. emotionally arousing material the. algorithms will capitalize on it um and. that's that's a very toxic. combination and then the anonymity as. well like we know perfectly well from a. vast array of psychological experiences. that normal. people anonymized are are much more.

likely to let the negative part of their. character have free reign and so I. really see this as a technical problem. is. that societies and psyches are always. threatened by the what they call the. dark tetrad personality proclivities. narcissism. melanism psychopathy that's parasitical. predatory a parasitical Predator is a. psychopath and ISM and you have those.

impulses within you and there are people. who are primarily characterized by those. motivations we have evolved mechanisms. for keeping that under control but. they're all dispensed within social. media and so what seems to be happening. is the dark tetrad types are hijacking. the political discourse on the right and. the left polarizing and dividing and. capitalizing on that and it's. catastrophic socially and. psychologically but they benefit from. the ensuing chaos by attracting.

attention to themselves in a manner. that's undeserved and counterproductive. I think the danger in that is sufficient. that it's civilization threatening I. mean we can't underestimate the power of. these electronically mediated. communication networks they're insanely. powerful and they amplify people to a. degree that's almost unimaginable and so. the manipulators and the Bad actors have. disproportionate influence on our. Peterson acad website we have a social.

media Network and uh we're trying to. incorporate all the features of social. media networks that have made them. attractive but our system differs from. let's say Twitter why well there's a. payment. barrier and you might say well I would. rather it was free it's like hm free eh. if it's free you're the product and if. it's free there's zero barrier to your.

exploitation right so the Bad actors you. could I think this is probably a rule in. a social communication system that's. free the Psychopaths come to dominate. because they can take it's not free. because you're devoting your attention. and attention is valuable and the Bad. actors can take advantage of your. attention and pay zero price. well if you set up a system where actors. can take advantage of your attention for. zero price the psychopaths are going to. dominate so one of the things we might.

hypothesize I don't know if it's true is. that there should be a price barrier to. all social media interactions if it's. free the Bad actors will dominate and. then the other thing we're trying to do. is to well encourage and reward positive. interactions but we're also going to. have the take the responsibility of. identifying the small number of people. who will repetitively misbehave and just. ask them to leave now you know that.

raises the Spectre of something. approximating censorship let's say but I. don't think it's reasonable to draw a. direct line between censorship. and not putting up with immature. Psychopaths like that's not the same. thing it's not opinion-based I've been. attacked by the psychopathic Types on. the left and on the right it's it's. politically. agnostic and so because the psychopathic.

manipulator types they'll use whatever. system of ideas is at hand to further. their own machinations and I think you. can distinguish the. Psychopaths I mean I use some rules. online when I'm dealing with comments if. you're anonymous you're questionable if. you're anonymous with a demonic name. you're definitely questionable and a lot. of anonymous accounts have names that. are luciferian you know I guess that's. part of the edginess if you use lol.

lmfao if you use derisive names those. are all indications of Bad actors like I. think you could characterize the bad. actor space quite clearly you do that. with diagnostic criteria but we have. this situation now where the social. media spaces. are overwhelmingly tilted in a negative. Direction by the predatory Psychopaths. do do you believe that things are as. divided as they seem or I know they're. not that's I was speaking with one of my.

friends today Greg herwitz who has been. doing polling trying to identify. statements of conception that Americans. radically agree on and he has a list of. about 50 that 85% of Americans agree on. they're very foundational things no I. don't believe it at all I think that. there's a a fringe of the dark tetrad. types who are. radically stirring the pot and that the. algorithms.

and the anonymity and. the Costless nature of the communication. is facilit enabling them yeah and it's. extremely dangerous how do we not let. the average mind how do we not let. ourselves become consumed by believing. that is reality when that's all we're. exposed to that I don't know I don't. know how you do that I mean I think part. of that might be realizing that that is. happening you know it it'd be use useful.

for people to familiarize themselves. with the symptoms of what's called. cluster B Psychopathology borderline. personality disorder narcissism. psychopathy antisocial personality. hisonic personality to know who those. people are and so and to start to become. aware of that I think that's actually. harder for people on the left and the. reason for that I believe is that. agreeableness tilts people towards the.

radical left because agreeable people. are highly empathic and they tend to. think of anyone who's suffering as a. victim the problem with that attitude is. that it doesn't arm you very well with. an understanding of evil because truly. malevolent people camouflage themselves. as victims and they take advantage of. the empathic and so and that's a big. problem because the last thing you want. to do if you're truly empathic is enable. the the sadists right and there's no. shortage of that we know for example. there's a developing psychological.

literature that shows that the active. Anonymous troll types are much more. likely to be characterized by dark. tetrad traits is is there a way that we. can affect that at more of a root level. so that those AR think one of the things. that social media operators should do is. they should separate the anonymous. accounts from the verified accounts so. for example I would like to see it on. Twitter where the verified accounts you. see their comments. and then there's a hidden space.

underneath which is anonymous accounts. and if you want to click on that and. look through what the troll demons have. to say you can it's a little trip to. hell you're not required to do it and. they're separated from the people who. will stake their reputation on their. words which is what you do when you. genuinely identify yourself you know now. the anonymous types like to say well you. know anonymity is necessary because in a. tyrannical state only the anonymous can. tell the truth and my experience with.

that is that for every one in. 10,000 Brave Anonymous whistleblowers. there's. 99,999 sadistic macu alans and so you. might think that you're a brave truth. teller in the confines of your Anonymous. de demonically named account but. probably you're just a sadistic. Troublemaker so I think that would the. and then the other issue probably is. cost like.

free first of all free is an illusion. because there is nothing that's free at. least you're paying with your attention. and your time it's not free your data. yeah abs and your well that's the next. thing you're also paying with your. identity and all your behavioral data. right and so none of that's free and so. that's an illusion and I think one of. the things we have observed with. Peterson Academy because the social. interactions there are very positive and. pretty much Universal so it hopefully.

we'll establish that as a what would you. say a cultural convention right but I'm. certain that a fair part of that is just. that you can't produce a 100 troll. accounts for nothing and do nothing but. cause trouble because at minimum it's. going to cost you some money so I think. we can probably dispense. with maybe 80% of the Bad actors just by. not making it free so no one knows right. this is why I have sympathy let's say.

for people like Mark Zuckerberg and for. Elon Musk sort of equally even though. they're not necessarily on the same side. of the political Spectrum it's like. Zuckerberg gets hauled to Congress and. raked over the coals but it isn't like. as if we can assume that he knows how to. solve this problem because the. psychopathic parasite problem is really. really old and those sorts of people are. very good at manipulating communication. networks and there's no reason to assume. that some of them aren't equally good in.

the new technologies you know and musk. is musk's approach is something like a. radical Free Speech approach but like I. just sat with one of my friends here. actually this morning this Greg herwitz. I was telling you about and he's done. some forensic investigations first of. all indicating how much of the troll. activity on social media networks is. funded by International actors Iran. topping the list let's say which is you. know unbelievably horrible and then how. much of the path ological content is.

generated by a very small number of Bad. actors with disproportionate influence. you know 20 20 Bad actors on Twitter. like seriously malevolent people who are. working to cause trouble fulltime they. they can punch way above their weight. way above their weight not good and. there's no there's no saving. them well the terrifying thing is and. women should know this is like the guys. that are just out for a good time. they're not much fun and they're a lot.

worse than you think and the worst of. them are so much worse than you think. that if you ever got to look inside. their mind you would never recover. people who haven't found their calling. is that they're not noticing it in its. micro manifestations there's going to be. certain things that grip you and disturb. you and those are the problems that. you're destined to have to contend with. the cluster B psychopathologies are. notoriously resistant to. psychotherapeutic inter vention I mean. first of all this kind of goes back to.

the discussion of Pride they're very. unlikely to come for counseling because. and if they do they're the sort of. people and I'm I'm dead serious about. this they're likely to announce. themselves as the sort of person that. the therapist is very lucky to be. interacting with right that there's no. doubt that this will be at least as. advantageous for the therapist as for. the client and that they're the sort of. special person who has graced this. office with their presence and that's.

that's not not a word of exaggeration I. had some. pretty pretty unpleasant child molesting. Psychopaths for example in my clinical. practice and the one that I remember. most particularly was unbelievably good. at putting himself forward as a pillar. of the a a devoted misunderstood pillar. of the community like it was just his. constant refrain absolutely unteachable. and antisocial personality is notorious. resistant to psychotherapeutic.

intervention it's the same with. histrionic borderline. narcissistic it's very it's unbelievably. stable personality trait what's your aim. and potential Target with an individual. like that like where could your practice. even takes well what I did try when I. had those people and that was often. Court mandated and I would never I think. Court mandated Psychotherapy is a. contradiction in terms because you have. to come there voluntarily for it to work. my Approach with people like that was to. appeal to something like their more.

extended self-interest which would be. well I I don't know if you noticed there. buddy but you know your constant. interference with children has decimated. your marriage and your family and you've. been in prisoned for it and you know. people are on to you and so a wise. narcissistic psychopath might tone it. down a bit. but I wouldn't claim for a moment that. that had any effect whatsoever you know. the degree of cynicism that. characterizes someone like that is. almost. it's almost it's very difficult to.

develop an appreciation for evil it's. not a fun place to go and to do it. properly you also have to start to. recognize it in yourself and that is not. pleasant and as I said for example the. naive empathic. types they really do believe that most. of the criminals are misunderstood. victims and you know what's terrible. about that is that some of the criminals. are misunderstood victims you know there. are people in prison who under duress of.

various sorts made one extremely stupid. mistake and ended up seriously punished. for it okay so let's just put those. people off the table we can ignore. them 1% of the criminals commit 65% of. the crimes okay so those are the people. that we're looking at recalcitrant. repeat offenders with a proclivity for. violence okay can you repair them.

no the the standard penological theory. is that part of their problem is. actually delayed maturation for whatever. reason you just put them in prison till. they're in their late 20s and then. they're much less likely to reoffend why. did they learn that's one way of. thinking about it they're less impulsive. and sensation seeking as a consequence. of maturity and likely some of it is. just delayed maturity but it has very. little to do with. Rehabilitation and a lot to do with age. you know the the male crime curve spikes.

at. 15 and even among normal males let's say. they're much more likely to misbehave as. testosterone and maturation kick in and. then you see a a return to something. approximating normal behavior usually by. the time of 24 25 when men take on more. of the mature responsibilities of life. and the criminal pattern is. approximately equivalent to that. although the lag to maturity is longer. but no it's there's no evidence that I.

find credible that the cluster B. psychopathologies are amenable to. psychotherapeutic in intervention I. don't think so yeah and and they're. they're also generally a very very very. very you need a lot of varies to make. that right very difficult population to. work with yeah and you do that at your. peril yeah I think listening to you the. idea of false compassion can be used so. against us and an immature level of the.

development of empathy and compassion is. easily taken advantage of well we know. this because one of the things we know. for example is so the dark tetrad males. are differentially attractive to. women but mostly younger and naive women. okay so why well the typical dark tetrad. type is very confident and not anxious. okay so why would that be attractive to. women. because men who are competent in their.

domain are confident and not anxious. what the predatory Psychopaths do is. mimic that and naive women can't tell. the difference and so they're they can. be more attracted to the dark tetrad. types especially when they're young and. then there's the additional complication. that the even more pathological dark. tetrad types are very good at appealing. to empathy by making claims of. victimization it's a Nast NY game and. the people who are good at it they're.

better at it than you are at detecting. it I knew Robert hair he Robert hair was. the first clinical psychologist who. really delved into psychopathy and. non-clinical psychopathy and he recorded. 200 conversations with like brutal. criminal Psychopaths and he was quite an. agreeable person Robert hair and he said. invariably that while he was talking to. them they had him convicted. and it wasn't until afterwards when he.

was watching the videos that he could. see the tricks and that's because these. people are watching. you more than you're watching them and. they're. seeing which tricks work on you and. that's the game of the that's the goal. of the game like if I was doing that to. you I'd be thinking okay well I'm going. to get this guy to smile more right I'm. I'm I'm going to see if I can I'm going. to see which lies I can get him to. swallow cuz be I'd be testing you let's.

say for your gullibility and so I'd. start out with a little lie and watch. you and then if you swallowed it I'd get. a good boost of superiority which is. partly what I'm after and then I'd try a. you know another lie and if you detected. that well I'd move in another Direction. sort of map you for your gullibility and. then I'd find out how you could be. exploited and that'd be the whole. purpose of the. conversation yeah and then well and then. add to that the fact that I've practiced. that for 30 years and that maybe I'm as. smart as you are or possibly smarter.

right I mean depends on the situation. but how does a woman even begin to. detect or notice the difference well. part of the way that women have done. that historically is by not going out. with people they don't know right that. aren't part of their social network you. know and one of the things about the. psychopathic Predators is that they're. not very good at maintaining social. connections and so wow that's huge yeah. oh yeah well the like the dating apps. and that sort of thing they're complete. open play playing Ground for the.

psychopathic types there there's. something even worse about this actually. so the sexual Revolution was predicated. on the idea that we could alter female. reproduction patterns so that they could. act like men basically because men are. more likely to take a short-term mating. opportunity. and the promise of reliable birth. control was that. that Avenue of possibility would be open. to women okay and you might say well why.

not because you know sexuality is. pleasurable and if you could reduce the. cost why not do it all right so that's. what we've been experimenting with for. 60 years okay well one reason is that. hormonal birth control Alters females. perceptions so women on the pill don't. like masculine men as much and what. that's done to us politically and. sociologically no one knows it's a big. deal and we don't know but the other. thing that's happened is so imagine that.

there are you could imagine male. reproductive strategies as being on a. Continuum there are men who are more. inclined towards long-term committed. monogamous relationships and there are. men who are more committed to short-term. hedonistic pleasure seeking. relationships all right so now imagine. you took these men and you analyzed. their personalities and you took these. men and analyze their personalities well. that's been done The Men Who prefer. short-term mating opportunities are. Psychopathic.

narcissistic maavalan. and. sadistic right so one of the unintended. consequences of the sexual Revolution is. that the freed up women have been. delivered to the psychopathic men right. and what's the consequence of that we. don't know we don't know we know that. young people are less likely to have. relationships we know that the birth. rate is plummeted we know that people. are much less likely to get married. married how much that is a consequence.

of the destabilization of of the. reproductive pattern by by hormonal. birth. control no one knows it's not like it. was a minor Revolution right it was a. major technological Revolution but the. terrifying thing is and women should. know this is. like the guys that are just out for a. good time they're not much fun and. they're a lot worse than you think and. the worst of them are so much worse than. you think that if you ever got to look.

inside your their mind you would never. recover and I'm not saying that lightly. it's not pleasant like the worst of. terrible people are so. bad I'm I'm I'm not making this. up most people who have post-traumatic. stress. disorder don't have it because they were. hurt they have it because they. encountered someone who wanted to hurt. them right and so it was that glimpse of.

that malevolence that fractured them it. wasn't people can go through all sorts. of horrible things and not be. traumatized you know a terrible illness. terrible pain an accident you wait till. you tangle with someone who's malevolent. boy you're you will not be the same. person afterward assuming you managed to. put yourself back together at all so. this is not and it's it's many of those. people too that have free reign online. it's not a good thing you brought up. identity and I feel that. so much of our subscription to ideas of.

identity are somewhat subconscious and. I'm not sure anyone's ever at least not. that I know the the scale of people who. are thinking about their life in a. logical way to say let me think about. what my identity is I think we join. communities We join groups we leave. communities we leave groups we sign up. to this we unsubscribe from that we. don't even recognize that we're. subconsciously crafting an idea identity. by the people we spend time with and the.

people we listen to it often isn't as. yeah it isn't as uh stories by the way. that's that's a good observation I mean. one of the things I've realized and one. of the themes that is developed in this. new book is the notion that so when when. you're introduced to someone you'll tell. them a story about who you are so you. describe your identity a story is a. description of that implicit identity. that you described so you see the world.

through a structure of identity that. doesn't mean you know what that is as. you pointed out when you tell a story. about yourself what you're trying to do. is to approximate you're trying to. encapsulate that implicit identity into. something that's communicable and then. that something that also becomes. explicitly understandable to you this is. partly what dreams do so in the dream. your implicit identity reveals itself. but not entirely coherently and not. entirely verbally. if you take a dream and you you.

interpret it if you have the The Good. Fortune to be able to manage that and. maybe some help you're. moving the information that's part of. your implicit identity upward into. something that's more explicitly. recognized like what you'd hope is that. what you're actually. pursuing preconsciously or unconsciously. is mapped very well by your self-. description right because then you're a. person that has a certain degree of.

Integrity who you think you are and who. you are the same thing that's an optimal. situation that's the pursuit of. something like Integrity say in moral. development maybe in Psychotherapy in in. a relationship that's positive and. productive it's all moving towards that. end and it's very useful to understand. that what stories do is stories are the. manner in which implicit identity makes. itself explicit and so the biblical. story for example are part of the.

process the historical process by which. the developing morality of individuals. as they become more complexly civilized. reveals itself to those cultures and to. the participants it's a dynamic process. and it's much better to understand the. stories that way you know the atheist. types tend to parody belief in God say. is belief in something like the great. Genie In The Sky the sky Daddy I think. the benevolent Sky Daddy which is the. terminology that people like Richard.

Dawkins use but that's a. very it's a dismissive parody of the. phenomena it's not a reasonable approach. because the the realm of religious. conceptualization is far more. sophisticated than that parody would. indicate like I mean let's let's take. the idea that the Divine reveals itself. as the call of Adventure well this is a. serious idea to contend with. so what it implies is that there's a.

spirit so to speak a process a dynamic. that reveals itself within us that. captures what interests us and compels. US forward in consequence and that. following that so when God comes to. Abraham he makes Abraham an offer like a. very explicit offer this is the Covenant. of yahwah and it's a very interesting. offer it's and I read it from a. psychological perspective even from an. evolutionary olical. perspective God this is how God is.

defined by the way. so God makes Abraham an. offer so Abraham comes from Rich parents. and there's no reason for him to do. anything from the purely material. perspective everything that he could. want is is already at hand and it. actually takes Abraham 70 years. to get moving right because he's an old. man by modern standards when The Voice. adventure comes to him and it says. something very very specific to him it's.

not vague at all it says you need to. leave the Comforts of your land and home. and you need to Voyage out into the. great unknown so it's like a quest story. like like The Hobbit say away you go. from Comfort well then the first. question you might ask if you had that. impulse is well why I have everything. that I would need assuming life is based. on that kind of need right at hand so. what's the benefit to me of moving.

beyond the zone of infantile dependence. and comfort that's a question everybody. faces always especially if they're. provided for adequately or even. excellently by their parents what should. impel you out into the world and why. bother well God tells Mo tells Abraham. something very specific he says if you. abide by the voice of. Adventure you'll be a blessing to. yourself. okay that's a good deal because it's.

very frequently the case that people's. people don't have an existence that's a. blessing to them they suffer a lot. they're anxious they're grief stricken. they're resentful they're angry they're. they're self-c. contemptuous um they're vicious there's. all sorts of ways that their existence. is not a blessing to them so the offer. that the voice of God as Adventure makes. to Abraham is that if you follow this. pathway of Adventure your life will. actually you'll start to experience your.

life as a blessing so that's a good deal. just that alone if if that was true that. might be good enough to motivate you. right think that's okay that's the. pathway forward to self-acceptance let's. say or something like a sophisticated. self-esteem but that's not the whole. offer the second offer is you'll become. known among your peers and validly and. that's very interesting because you know. you can think about people as corrupt. power Seekers who were clambering for. status or you can be less cynical and.

you could say well we're wired such that. we. appreciate due consideration for our. genuine efforts okay so if my reputation. is established on valid basis that means. that I'm appreciated by the people. around me but that there's a valid basis. for that that's the offer that's part. two so you're a blessing to yourself in. a manner that enhances your reputation. and you deserve it that's a good deal if.

you could have that then there's another. offer which is you'll get those two. things plus you'll establish something. of lasting significance because Abraham. is the father of Nations like he's the. founder of a dynasty so not only will. you have those first two things but. it'll propagate across time you know and. it's often the case when people are. looking for something meaningful that. they think well I'd like to do something. of lasting value right there seems to be. something intrinsically motivating about. that and so you think well that's a good. deal and then the fourth thing is you'll.

do it in a way that'll be of benefit to. everyone else so there's no nothing. selfish or narcissistic about it so you. think about what that means it implies. that the Instinct of Adventure that. compels you beyond your zone of comfort. is Allied psychologically and socially. so that if you follow it you'll be a. blessing to yourself you're you'll have. a reputation that's esteemed and. deserved you'll conduct yourself so that. you produce things of lasting value and.

it will be good for everyone else well. that's an excellent deal and it it. speaks of a Harmony between the Advanced. psychological motivation that pulls you. forward and your emotional states. plus productivity and integration into. the broader social Community well I. think that's right I I can't see how it. can be otherwise because the counter. hypothesis would. be the force that motivates you forward.

acts at Cross purposes to say. sociological stability and I can't see. how we could be genuinely social animals. productively social animals which we are. and there be some intrinsic conflict. between the force that moves us forward. and the force that brings people. together right why not assume that they. exist together in a kind of Harmony I. mean we're adapted to the social world. and. that's one of the Avenues that I had.

explored in we who wrestle with God and. there's more in the abrahamic story. that's quite remarkable too because the. other thing that Abraham decides to do. this is so cool when you understand it. is that so imagine you know this in your. own life a you move towards a new. destination and that requires a kind of. growth so you might ask well what does. that growth consist of and in the. abrahamic story it consists of sacrifice. so every time Abraham makes a. transformation in identity he makes a.

sacrifice well that is what happens when. you make a transformation of identity. because as you grow and mature you have. to shed those traits people even. situations material possessions. Geographic local whatever you have to. shed all of that if it's interfering. with your progress forward and so what. you see in Abraham's life is a series of. Adventures Each of which are marked by a. sacrifice. that move him upward towards a higher.

and higher and more integrated form of. being right he's the Redeemer of cities. at one point and there's nothing in that. that doesn't seem accurate to me. psychologically and so and it's an. exciting thing to understand because. it's the abrahamic story is the template. for individual development that's a good. way of thinking Abraham is the first. real individual in the in the western. Cannon and the story's very it's very. psychologically astute once you. understand the basic reference once you. understand for example that sacrifice at.

least in part means dispensing with. something you once valued but has now. say become an impediment and. so well so that's a little bit more. description of the domains of thought. that I've been wandering in no I I. deeply appreciate the way you're. analyzing and observing a religious text. that can often be seen as a story um a. lesson a message and act looking at it. as closely linked to human development.

and part of my training I did something. similar with the badita which is the. text of the East and it's similar. there's a conversation between the. Divine Krishna or God with Arjun who's. an Archer who has lost all self-belief. and self-esteem because he's having to. fight his family he's an Archer yes he's. sin means to miss the target oh wow yeah. it's a it's an archery term yeah and and. and that notion of sin has that Archery. Connection in multiple different.

languages and so it's the same theme. that you're describing and the reason. for that is an Archer hits the target. right so to hit the target accurately is. to pursue the Divine most appropriately. so there's a metaphysics of archery so. that's definitely not a that's not. that's a good example of how there's. that's right there's no mistake in that. right there's no mistake in that you. want to hit the target dead center. absolutely and in the beginning of the. text his bow is slipping from his hands. because his. he's feeling sweaty he's feeling nervous. he's feeling anxiety and therefore he.

turns to God for instruction and. guidance okay so so okay so there's a. there there's a meaning there too so. psychologists have demonstrated. convincingly mostly. statistically that there's no difference. between being self-conscious and being. miserable right they're so tightly. Associated so for example in the Big. Five in one of the classic big five uh. personality. descriptive processes tests.

self-consciousness is a facet of. neuroticism so it's actually a. subelement of suffering okay so what. does that mean it means that if you're. focused on your narrow self what you. want now you're going to become both. aimless and anxious and that's. technically the case and so you might. say well then what's the medication for. that and the medication isn't exact to. stop thinking about yourself because.

well then what do you think about and. and exactly how do you continue to. maintain your care for yourself the. medication to that is to aim higher for. example in our conversation and you're. obviously good at this because your. podcast wouldn't work you can't sit in a. conversation like this and do nothing. but aim at the enhancement of your own. status let's say in the of your audience. or at the expense of your guest first of.

all if you do that you won't have guests. for long and their quality will. disintegrate but also people will see. through you eventually and see you as. self-serving if by contrast you aim the. conversation at the expansion let's say. of your own understanding and wisdom. then you're not it's not about you it's. about the dynamic of the conversation. and you can bring everybody along for. the ride but one of the benefits of that. is you won't be self-conscious so your. hands won't sweat you won't you won't.

miss your grip on the bow you won't aim. wrong there's almost no failure. regardless of how arbitrary that you. can't learn from if you're a man and. you're getting nowhere with women it's. very easy for you to become extremely. hostile to women which is not going to. help you out much the depressed person. will assume that they're very unhappy. and that that's always there but if you. get them to track it what you find is. they may be comparatively unhappy but. there is variation so there'll be times. when they're much more miserable than.

usual but also times when they're less. miserable I guess it comes back down to. in the same way that you talked about. the Call to Adventure almost feeling. like the first step at least from what I. observed from what you were sharing. maybe there are a lot of people. listening today who may feel Jordan Jay. I've never had the Call to Adventure. like I've missed it I haven't seen it. even if it's there I don't know where it. is in my life and that's why my life. feels meaningless I feel lost I feel. stuck because I just don't see it that's.

well that's and C is the right metaphor. there so the ancient Egyptians one of. their gods Horus was the god of the Open. Eye and the Mesopotamian God Marduk who. was a savior figure whom the emperor. should model himself after was also he. had eyes all the way around his head so. he could see that's not the same as. thinking so to have an open eye is to. attend and so you might say well well if. you've missed your adventure Carl Jung.

said modern man doesn't see God because. he doesn't look low enough which is a. very interesting way of conceptualizing. it's like one of the things I try to do. in this new technology we're developing. with essay but also as a theme in we who. wrestle with God is to point out that. you can learn to watch so for example. when I was dealing with depressed people. in my clinical practice and this is a. pretty standard behavioral approach is. one of the things you do with depressed. people is you have them their mood say. maybe every hour during the day cuz a.

depressed person will assume that. they're very unhappy and that that's. always there but if you get them to. track it what you find is they may be. comparatively unhappy but there is. variation so there'll be times when. they're much more miserable than usual. but also times when they're less. miserable and they may not even really. know when those times are without. tracking it so one of the things. typically is depressed people will. isolate themselves because they think. don't want to see anyone but if you have. them track their emotions you find that.

when they're with other people they're. almost invariably less depressed okay so. imagine now I had you make a map of your. emotions across a week and we Associated. the emotions with what you were doing. what we'd find is some of the things you. were doing were making you much more. depressed and some of the things less. and so then your goal so the first goal. is see that attend to that as if you're. ignorant even with regards to to your. own nature and then the next thing would. be well how about you do a little bit.

more of the things that are positive and. a little bit less of the things that are. negative right and then we will'll remap. that and see if you've moved your. average mood you know up the up the. distribution and so this is what they. call The Beginner's mind at least in. part in Buddhism you want to look at the. situation which might be your own. situation is if you don't know yourself. it's like okay well what am I interested. in people are often loathed to even ask. that question because they may find for.

example that the thing that compels them. forward isn't the thing their father or. mother wanted them to do that's a very. common familial story you know you might. be shocked at who you are it's highly. probable just like you're shocked when. you start to get to know someone else. it's the same is going to apply to you. and the rule there is something like. watch don't assume right don't put your. presuppositions before the realities of. your experience all right so he had to. watch and so and if you watch you see.

you can you can Rectify your aim right. right and so that's the difference. between attention and thought you know. luciferian intelligences worship their. own. presuppositions someone who's active and. attentive watches they're alert. meditation can foster that right because. it teaches you to be present and awake. and so I would say to people who haven't. found their calling is that they're not. noticing it in its microm.

manifestations you know it it's not. going to necessarily announce itself. like Gandalf announced himself to The. Hobbit it's going to be. subtle things bother. you that's part of your adventure like. there's going to be certain things that. grip you and disturb you and those are. the problems that you're destined to. have to contend with and you might be. annoyed about that because you think I. don't want to have any problems it's. like. no you actually probably want to have.

some serious problems that you can. contend with that are going to occupy. you some responsibilities and then. there'll be the things that clearly. motivate your movement forward and it's. very good to start to understand what. those are to to understand that that's. how it works first but then also to. understand them in more detail you can. you can start to come to understand that. by understanding your own temperament so. for example if you're high in neur I ISM. you're going to be more concerned with. Safety and Security if you're agreeable.

you're going to be relationship focused. if you're disagreeable you're going to. be competitive if you're conscientious. you're going to be interested in order. and productivity if you're open you're. going to be interested in Aesthetics and. ideas well right there you've got a bit. of a map of the territory of calling and. conscience that you're going to occupy. and so you have a nature you know and. it's it's it's given to you and it. manifests itself in what interests you. and what bothers you and the biblical. insistence at least in part and this is.

common I think to sophisticated. religious systems of thought worldwide. is that there's an autonomy in what. calls you and what calls to your. conscience right it's you have a. relationship with your conscience you. have a relationship with what interests. you it's not exactly under your control. it's something that can guide you and. that you can follow and that's. portrayed in these well in the story of.

Abraham for example as God is the Call. to Adventure it's so an extremely. interesting conceptualization you know. you you see that implicitly in quest. stories like the Lord of the Rings or. The Hobbit you know you have this. ordinary guy who's protected that would. be the Hobbit in in uh in the first book. book of tolken series um or even Harry. Potter who unbeknown to him is magical. and has ordinary parents right so. there's this call out of ordinariness. and the voice of that call is associated.

with as definition with the Divine. that's not a superstitious. conceptualization and it's not something. like an abdication of responsibility in. favor of superstition you know it's a. terrifying idea it's also predicated to. some degree on the idea that the the. purpose of life isn't something. like secure Comfort that's partly why. people make so much trouble so we're not. wired for. infantile secure comfort and if we don't.

have a real Adventure we'll find a false. one and we'll cause a lot of trouble in. that false Adventure a lot alcoholism. that's a false Adventure drug abuse. that's a false Adventure you know. sequential parasitical love affairs. that's a false Adventure political. activism of a destructive sort the false. Adventure seems to be so alluring and. intoxicating in so many ways and. naturally in in the case that you're. sharing distracting as well how does one.

avoid the allurements of a false. Adventure while they're still pursuing. that's a very good that's a very good. question well I think conscience is a. big part of that you know because it's. very frequent that that people will be. visited by their conscience when they do. something that's hedonistically valuable. in the short term but then they think oh. you know I shouldn't have done that it's. like well why shouldn't have you done. that well I cheated on my girlfriend all. right well you you got to cheat there's.

the benefit what's the downfall well I. can't trust myself I'm a liar she can't. trust me okay so what's the problem with. that you want to be alone you want to be. a parasitical psychopath like what's. your goal here and so the problem part. of the problem with just calling let's. say is it can become short term and it. can to entice you into false micro. Adventures that don't propagate well. across time and that disturb other. people you know you said something when.

we were talking just before the. interview started about because I was. asking you what you thought you might be. doing right with regard to your podcast. say that would account for its. popularity and you said well you're in. it for the long run well a fundamental. part of cortical maturation from a. biological perspective is that you start. to see things in the long run and then. you don't do things in the short term. that are exciting and and even. adventurous that. violate what the propagation of the.

adventure across time you know and you. can you can Envision it this way. socially if you and I have an honest. conversation. okay imagine that you have a guest who. uses your podcast in a manipulative way. okay they could gain some short-term. Advantage putting you down let's say. playing a power game uh using the. podcast as a a means to enhance their. economic. standing or their social standing well.

what's the problem with that well. they're not going to get invited back. well you do that 20 times you're done. right okay so one of the ways of. thinking about this if you're trying to. understand what constitutes morality. technically is that the moral pathway if. I'm interacting with you morally. assuming you're treating yourself. properly our interactions are going to. have to be of the kind that you want to. voluntarily repeat that's what you have. with a friend MH and there's a pattern.

to that obviously a pattern of. reciprocity a pattern of mutual Aid. unless it's a pathological friendship in. which case it's likely to collapse. anyways but that's a constraint. repeatability voluntary repeatability. across time is a real constraint and. it's something like the future because. it's across time but it's also something. like the constrainted on your actions by. the necessity for you to be embedded in. a voluntary social frame work right and. that's a huge Advantage you know like.

one of the things you could think about. for example there's this game that. economists play behavioral Economist so. this is how the game works you you pick. two people and you say to one of them. I'm going to give you $100 and you have. to split it with this person if they. accept the offer then you get the 100. and you pay them but if they refuse the. offer neither of you get anything so. that's the game now if you play that. across cultures what you find is that. regardless of socioeconomic. status people offer 50% okay now this.

violates the tenants of classical econom. economics which views people as self-. maximizers. because if I'm only going to play a game. with you once I should take $99 and give. you one and you should take one because. what do you want zero or do you want one. but that isn't what people do they split. it 50/50 now then you might ask why well. well you don't play one-off games with. people so imagine you're doing this.

publicly M okay now everyone watches you. and they see that you you're a fair. player well then they're going to play. with you if they get an opportunity you. could even say I don't know if this has. ever been tested but you could even say. well maybe you do a 6040 split and you. offer the person that's playing slightly. more than you get well you lose in that. game but if you get a reputation that's. part of that abrahamic Adventure if you. get a reputation for bending over.

backwards to be. reciprocal people are going to line up. to play with you and so that's why you. try to teach your children to be good. sports because you know you say to them. it doesn't matter whether you win or. lose it matters how you play the game. and the kids thinks what the hell do you. mean of course it matters if I win you. know parents are usually not. sophisticated enough to pursue that. philosophically but the right answer is. what good is their winning one game when.

you never get invited to play again it's. much better to be invited to play a 100. games and that means you're going to. have to be the sort of person that other. people are lining up to play with and. that's That's the basis that's part of. the basis of a genuine ethic and I think. raised to a raised to the philosophical. level you get something like a. Transcendent ethic out of that it's bi. logically predicated but it's a higher. order it's a higher order and more.

mature ethic and it's real it's super. real yeah it that reminds me of the kind. of Insidious traits that we also see. present so if you look at the examples. of the ones that you just gave of The. Hobbit like froto baggin or you look at. Harry Potter both of them also. experience the Envy of their Call to. Adventure so there are others who Envy. their Call to Adventure and you find. that again while we don't have our Call. to Adventure we may Envy someone else's.

yeah well that's also a very uh Central. observation I would say so the first. story in the Genesis in the in the Old. Testament the first story about actual. human beings that are in history is the. story of Cain and Abel because Adam and. Eve are well they're made directly by. God so the first two humans in history. are Cain and Abel it's a story of. resentment and envy right and it's. exactly it's exactly what you just laid.

out is that. Abel aims. up and makes the proper. sacrifices right say in the abrahamic. sense and because of that everything he. does. works and Cain makes second rate. sacrifices. and deceives himself and other people. and God and fails and instead of. learning from his failure he becomes. bitter he shakes his fist at God and.

complains about the structure of reality. itself and then he becomes murderous and. kills his own ideal and then his. descendants become genocidal and then. you have the flood it's like so that. that's another of the consequences let's. say of false of non-existent Adventure. or false Adventure is the those who Took. The Adventurous path become the targets. of envy there's destruction that's then. aimed at them and that can propagate so.

widely through a society that it does. itself in that's happened over and over. in human history yeah it's really it's. it's brutal and it's so terrifying that. that's the you know you could argue that. that Cain versus Abel narrative is in. many ways the fundamental Narrative of. what would you say it's the fundamental. batt Battle of the most likely attitudes. of each individ ual right you can. maintain faith and courage you can make.

the proper sacrifices you can aim. up you can be a benefit to yourself and. others or you can hold back what's best. you can try to manipulate the system you. can degenerate into bitterness and envy. and then look the hell out right right. and and this is one paragraph that story. right it's like 12 lines long it's a. stunning Miracle of of uh compression. yeah how does how does one transform. that if one is experiencing Envy of.

another's Call to Adventure or Envy of. another one's path or success or reward. from from God the universe wherever it's. coming from how does one transform. purify and rid themselves of that Envy. what does one do en well there are part. of what has historically constituted. religious practice is an answer to that. question. so the first would be uh you could. practice.

gratitude you know and you could make. the case that if you're not screaming in. agony because you're on fire right now. you have lots of things to be fortunate. about you know and people who have pass. through extremely harrowing experiences. they often learn that it's like oh the. sorts of things that I thought were. terrible are are almost negligible and. there's so many good things happening to. me all the time around me that I that. are invisible to me maybe because of my. arrogance that I'm just blind to them so.

the practice of gratitude that's a. standard religious exercise I would say. across the domains of valid religious. systems what else humility so the thing. about that one of the things that. distinguishes Cain from Abel is that. when Cain fails he thinks it's God's. fault or Society or other people or it's. externalized blame when Abel fails he. learns and that's the proper sacrificial. attitude because you might so for. example if you're a man and you're. getting nowhere with women it's it's.

very easy for you to become extremely. hostile to women which is not going to. help you out much generally speaking in. the relationship market and you can. certainly understand why that might be. because if you've had 50 encounters with. women you're attracted to and every. single one of them resulted in maybe not. only rejection but contemptuous. rejection you can certainly understand. why you might conclude from that that. there something seriously wrong with. women but you could flip that and you.

could presume that by definition if. you're failing in that. regard there's some changes that should. be made you know and and it really does. depend on your initial stance with. regard to the. situation one of the things that comes. very that comes through very clearly. with regards to the upward aiming. Israelites they're not all upward aiming. but the upward aiming ones the Old. Testament is whenever a cataclysm visits. them they assume it's their.

fault and that's a hell of a thing to. take on to yourself right it's if I'm. failing it's my fault and you can. certainly understand why that's. difficult because a certain amount of. misery seems to visit people arbitrarily. but there's almost no failure regardless. of how arbitrary that you can't learn. from and there isn't anything better. that you can do with failure no matter. how unjust than to learn from it and so. as a general attitude how did I go wrong.

here is a hyper useful existential. stance right and it it's also a bul. workk against hopelessness. because you know even if it was 95%. situational and 5% you if you adjusted. that 5% maybe that'd be enough so that. the next time that situation arises. you'd come out on the positive side of. it you know and you're also not a. torment to other people then because.

your general question is how am I. insufficient and that also gives you. something to do because man trying to. rectify your own insufficiency that's a. that'll keep you busy for the rest of. your life and that's a good thing right. that's a meaningful Pursuit and you will. experience it that way working on your. own insufficiencies yeah well it's an. inexhaustible source of possibility. right because there's always could be. better at something than you are no. matter how good you are at something and.

no matter how many dimensions you're. doing that analysis in. simultaneously right it's like a horizon. of opportunity in some in some ways. that's the flip side of it your. insufficiencies the flip side of your. insufficiencies are the opportunities. that growth in those Dimensions would. represent that's a good way of looking. at the world what's the insufficiency. that lets us down the most is there one. that's stands above all Elders Pride. that's that's the classical answer from.

the judeo-christian perspective anyways. pride and arrogance you know that would. be something like the presumption that. that you're that you're right and that. and that you're above it all that you're. on top and so and you could see that as. a well first of all something very. annoying to other people so that's a. problem given that you have to put up. with them and it's also an impediment to. learning. right because to be open to learning. does mean at least to some degree always.

asking well what am I doing wrong what. do I have to give up what do I have to. let go of what do I have to transform. that can be very painful. but so. Pride that's one that's that's a major. one um hen. Hedonism that's a problem and that's a. kind of immaturity so that's that desire. for immediate gratification at the. expense of other people at the expense. of you in the long run right at so at.

the expense of the general future and so. that's a very difficult thing to. overcome I mean a lot of what you do. when you're socializing children is. you're trying to incourage them to. become capable of integrating their. various hedonistic. desires so they don't conflict with one. another so that they can be they can. find their gratification in the long. long run in a manner that's commensurate. with the needs and wants of other people.

and it takes 20 years to socialize a. child to become a full-fledged adult and. it's not like the process ends there. it's very complicated process of. integration and. self-regulation and it is it it is. upward and and why why is it better well. even if the goal is. gratification if one strategy allows 20. repetitions of gratification and the. other. strategy offers one gratification.

followed by regret and catastrophic. failure it seems pretty obvious even by. the standards of gratification that the. first strategy is better than the second. absolutely yeah right right right right. so the iteration element of it is. crucial now is this a long-term playable. game better is this the kind of. long-term playable sustainable game that. I would like to engage in voluntarily. and maybe bring others aboard equally. voluntarily that's a that's a good.

ethical question it's also extremely. practically valuable you know we were. talking before this began about the this. about the utility that you found in. putting together around you a very. functional team well a functional team. is composed of people playing the same. game and all doing it full-heartedly and. voluntarily yeah well so that's a that's. an optimal solution even if even if the. goal is say the maximization of your.

success your. success success that comes at the. expense of other people that's. not that means that your definition of. success is Thoroughly flawed that's all. it means that's especially true if the. world isn't a zero sum game and I don't. see any evidence that it is there's no. reason that your Victory unless you're. envious and spiteful sadistic even. there's absolutely no reason that your.

victory has to come at the expense of. someone else I feel often going back to. your point on Pride I feel often. our views of how Pride shows its face. are quite superficial in that we think. of things like ego and pride as bravado. and arrogance and showing off and and. those are quite immature superficial. they're true but they're you get what. I'm saying they're incomplete aspects.

and I think today in the world we see. far more subdued nuanced hidden ways of. how Pride shows up in all of us and. around us one of which you pointed out. earlier which was like I'm right you're. wrong and this can show up on a daily. basis whether it's a comment section a. chat room or an an online Place whatever. it may be that there's a feeling that. ego rulle RS us not in the I'm the boss. and you're lower down but in I'm right.

and you're wrong and my way is the best. way and my political party my God my. whatever it may be is better than yours. well some of that is the attempt to. obtain status and sometimes that's. predicated on the erroneous assumption. that if you defeat someone let's say in. an argument that you're right now. there's a certain amount of Truth in. that because you can evaluate ideas in. the ideational space but you can be. intelligent and unwise and defeat.

someone wise and less articulate in an. argument and still be profoundly wrong. what you should be trying to do and this. is especially true in the confines let's. say of a marital relationship. is you should be trying to listen it's. like and maybe you're trying to help. your partner formulate their argument. more accurately so that you both can get. to the root of the problem and oh I love. the cheap it's very useful it's like. well you might have a point you know I.

mean this is actually one of the things. that can help men in their understanding. of women so women on average are more. sensitive to negative emotion so you. could think of them as having a lower. threshold for alarm okay now what that. implies is that there'll be times when. the alarm Bell goes off when it doesn't. have to but there will be other times. when the alarm Bell is going off to. signify something that is barely. detectable but is is there okay so often. what women finds frustrating in speaking.

to men is the men they'll start the. women will start to lay out the problem. and the men will offer a solution and. the men think well don't you want a. solution and the the women who often. counter articulate this think well yeah. but well neither of us know what the. problem is yet and so the initial stages. in much couped communication are the. woman bringing up a problem but not. knowing what it is and so making all. sorts of wandering attempts to specify.

the problem and hoping even implicitly. that she'll have enough space enough. scaffolding so that that investigative. process. can come to focus on the actual problem. well once you've got the problem. identified it's a lot simpler to put. forward a solution and to implement it. but that's that's the case for well. that's the case of and for yourself if. you're upset or any dialogue it's like. you want to listen long enough so you.

actually understand what the problem is. and that's of great benefit to you. because now the cost. is if you're. wrong you're going to have to give. something up and that's annoying and. difficult and complicated and can be. humiliating and then you might say well. why bother and the answer to that. straightforward it's so you don't make. the same stupid mistake again and that. comes at a cost this is. why there's this dawning insistence.

arising insistence in our culture that. you shouldn't be able to be offensive in. your speech which sort of means you. shouldn't be allowed to upset anyone. emotionally. well if you're speaking about something. that's. foundational and you're pointing out an. error that's going to be upsetting to. the person you're talking to because it. means they're going to have to do a Fair. bit of cognitive retooling they're going. to have to undergo a partial death and.

rebirth well that's can be terribly. painful. but it's better than actually failing. cataclysmically repeatedly in the world. you know so we substitute death in. argumentation for death in actuality. that doesn't mean that death in. argumentation is nothing and because. there is an emotional burden and an. effort that has to be made people are. resistant to that I'd show that I'm. right so that you have to change fair. enough but but you might be the one with.

the problem I mean that's a terrible. thing to contemplate but I find that. don't you think there's a need for both. the. delivery and the receptor. to upgrade themselves because there's a. sense that even the deliverer of a. message no matter how true it may be if. they're able to make it not more. digestible in. I don't mean in a watered down way I. mean in a way that is not agitating but.

truly impactful definitely I mean you. don't want to wield the truth as a. weapon more than necessary you know when. people might say well I hurt your. feelings but I was only telling you the. truth it's like you might have been. telling the truth at one level of. analysis and lying like mad at another. because maybe your motivation was to. hurt and you figured out how to use. something that was nominally true as. your weapon and so at the very narrow. level of analysis semantically what you. said was true but in the broader context.

now you're just the sadist and so there. are technical approaches that to some. degree that are coded in the law so for. example if you're defending yourself. you're entitled to use something. approximating minimal necessary force. and that's a good Maxim for. communication you know you you want to. deliver a corrective message in the most. constrained possible. there's there's ways of doing this so. for example if you if you have an. employee and they've made a mistake you.

want to bring up the mistake primarily. so it's not repeated and so one of the. ways of buffering that is to bring the. person in and to say look here's a bunch. of things you're doing. right and we don't have a global problem. but in this specific case here's what. you did this was the consequence and. this is what you could have done to do. it differently and then you close it by. reiterating the fact that you know. having said that I have confidence for.

example that you'll Rectify this error. and people make mistakes and it the real. issue here is whether you take. responsibility for it and rectify it and. then the person can learn without being. demolished without being demoralized and. that's also a very good thing to do to. yourself like if you see that you've. made a mistake and you're guilty as hell. and tearing yourself apart you want to. approach it with the presumption of in. innocence it's like don't assume you're. any more terrible than you have to. assume okay then do the analysis and.

figure out what's the minimal. transformation you can make that will. suffice this is also a good principle. when you're arguing with maybe you're. upset with your partner your wife or. your husband it's incumbent on you to. figure out what you want like what would. satisfy you okay so you have a problem. with me I. didn't I wasn't properly appreciative. for the efforts you made when you were. preparing dinner I was dismissive of it. it's like okay what is it that you wish.

I would have said the person might say. well if you loved me you'd know that. it's like yeah but I'm stupid so I need. to know what word should have I used. that would have encouraged your efforts. in that regard and then the person can. tell you and then you can say the words. and you have to understand that there's. going to be a certain falseness about. that the first time time that it happens. but it's something you can get good at. over time you may have to teach your. partner how to reward you properly and.

there maybe be pretty bad at it the. first 10 times and that might be. annoying to you and them and even false. but you can practice it and it's worth. practicing yes yeah I read I read. something similar to what you're saying. in terms of how to give proper feedback. and it was in a book called the culture. code by Daniel coil and he talks about a. three-step method that the first thing. you do is you share that we have high.

standards here because you don't want to. live in a world of low standards you. don't want to drop your company. standards so you remind the person. you're speaking to we have high. standards here we have high goals and. the second thing you do is you say to. that person and I believe you can get. there yeah I believe it I see it for you. because of course they're still at the. company throwing some evidence in their. Cor in their direction would be useful. in that here's some things you know that. I remember that you really did well. correct that show me you can get there. and then the third is here are that what. you were saying here's that area here.

are the steps that you can take here was. the consequence here's a rectification. and I love that because we allow people. to rise to high standards as opposed to. hold them to them and I think there's a. difference between that in how Society. is functioning right now where we want. to hold people to certain standards but. we're not willing to help them rise. towards them and it seems like God and. this convers with Abraham is like. encouraging Abraham to rise not just. pointing at a standard that should well.

this this is one of the things that you. see repeated in the biblical stories is. that this is why there's insistence in. those stories that whatever the Divine. is is something that you actually enter. into a relationship with because there. is this element. of let's say tolerance for failure. combined with encouragement right it's. not merely that what constitutes the. divine is this. unattainable infinite standard against. which you're always going to fall short.

that's sort of that's what a tyrant does. falsely it's more like the spirit of. encouragement that a good father would. put into play with his kids you know you. want to set a standard that pulls the. child upward towards further development. but you want to put it within the range. of their grasp and so and you know is. does that characterize your interaction. with the world well I think it's fair to. say that it is. because you know we can fail without. dying and we can improve and so the.

notion. that. ideals can exist in concert with. encouragement isn't an. unreasonable proposition and it is I. mean I think part of the reason that God. is represented let's say in the biblical. text as a wise father is because that. element of the Divine that's. discriminating but encouraging is. Paramount and that is what you want in a.

father for sure you want someone who. says I think you're capable of being. great I really think that and here's. some evidence that you've provided that. that might be the case but given that I. believe that you're capable of that I'm. not going to let you get away with any. deviation from that that would be. finally. counterproductive that's not care right. that's the devouring mother who says. whatever you do is fine dear it's like. that's not love right that's actually.

the desire on the part of the person. who's delivering that message to keep. the person being communicated with in a. continually infantile and dependent. state right so it's a weird thing. because you need that discriminating. judgment which can be quite harsh it's. like no that wasn't up to standards. there buddy but that failure isn't. emblematic of your core self right the. part of you that I really want to. communicate is the with is the part. that's aiming up that was sort of the.

agreement I had with my clients in my. clinical practice like I'm on the side. of you that's aiming up and that's an. interesting basis for a relationship. it's like I'm not going to accept. everything you do now that doesn't mean. I'm going to arbitrary arbitrarily judge. it. or dispense with you in the case of. failure but our deal has got to be. something like we're trying to make. things better and so I'm going to be on. the side of you that's trying to make. things better and help you you. discriminate that part within you from. the part that might be envious and. aiming down and and being destructive.

what's still gives you hope Jordan in. all of this that we're discussing today. is there anything that makes you feel up. oh well there's lots of things to be. hopeful for I mean we're feeding twice. as many people regularly as even the. most wild optimists imagined in the late. 1960s absolute poverty is being. restricted around the world at a rate. that's miraculously inconceivable I mean.

before things destabilized to some. degree Over The Last 5 Years the UN. projections was were that we could. eradicate absolute poverty by. 2035 that's I mean that's a huge. Improvement I mean these Comm. communication Technologies they enable. well with Peterson Academy for example. we figure we can offer people a high. quality University level education. for under.

$2,000 and everywhere so like that's a. major Improvement I think that things. are actually somewhat less polarized on. the political side than they were two. years ago I mean there's tendencies in. both directions but I see I was just in. usbekistan that was extremely. interesting I met a man there who's an. industrialist his Enterprises comprise. 15% of uzbekistan's GDP he refurbished. 400,000 square met of post Soviet.

Factory uh floor space and they're. manufacturing everything you can. possibly imagine marble tiles building. materials fridges microwaves air. conditioners golf carts hospitals hotels. highrises usbekistan under the Soviets. was a was barely functional everyone was. Raising cotton they drained lake beel to. to irrigate the cotton fields that was.

the only Industrial Development they got. themselves out of the out from. underneath the boot of the Soviet. totalitarians and the society is. becoming wealthy and opportunity Rich at. an insane level and that's happening all. over the world I mean endless numbers of. reasons to assume that everybody could. Thrive that's what people like musk are. trying to aim at you know however. imperfectly I see no reason at all that.

the future couldn't be one of unlimited. abundance there's going to have to be a. transformation and ethical orientation. to go along with that. because there's no difference between. the ability to generate genuine wealth. and ethical conduct those are the same. thing that's the life more abundant. that's promised by the Divine in the in. the Old Testament stories for example m. you have to conduct yourself honorably. so that you can trust each other so that. you can cooperate to be productive right.

right so yeah I'm optimistic. fundamentally do you believe that that. is that going to be something you're. teaching at the Peterson Academy that. primary thing that you defitely. definitely because to me I I agree with. you that that I always wondered how uh. Business Schools across the world how at. colleges how at universities there was. no class on proper character it just. amuses me at that well and there's no. classes even on the relationship between. character and and economic progress I.

read a great book once called the wealth. and poverty of Nations and it was a. study of um really it's a study of the. role that honesty and trust plays in the. generation of wealth Japan's a really. good example of that Japan has like no. natural resources and it's an extremely. wealthy country why well it's a high. trust. Society no one. steals and envy is looked down upon. right ambition is fostered and so is. conscientious hard work and maybe even. to a fault in Japan but it's a high.

trust Society in high trust societies. everybody can become rich but it means. that everybody has to conduct themselves. ethically and that is a precondition for. anything approximating a I hate to use. the word sustainable but an iterable. capitalism right because people the. leftist critics in particular like to. think of capitalism as a rapacious ENT. Enterprise but that's a well first of. all compared to what you know dynastic.

poverty because that's generally the. alternative and it's not like that's not. rapacious. and most Enterprises that Orient. themselves too much to the short term. fail. so it's important to teach people we do. this so badly you know I mean even the. word capitalism isn't one that should be. used because really what we're talking. about is free exchange of goods and. services I mean who's opposed to that.

you want to be able to have a different. job you want to have some Choice do you. want to actually be able to own the. things you purchase do you want to be. able to purchase things do you want to. have a choice like who says no to that. no one and but no one but young people. in particular aren't taught that well. that's the capitalism that you're. criticizing the fact you get to own. something and move your labor. voluntarily from one place to another. you're going to oppose that are you in. favor what of top- down authoritarian.

planning where everyone starves. miserably so and you know a lot of. that's been removed from the world since. the since the wall fell. and people are much richer than they've. ever been and and and and not in an. entirely pathological manner so yeah. there's lots of reason to be optimistic. I actually think we're on the cusp of. something like an ethical Revolution. ution because and I tried to outline in. this in this new book is that I think. that we're at the point where our.

scientific discoveries in fields like. cognitive neuroscience and evolutionary. biology can be seen to dovetail with our. traditional understanding of high order. ethics that's partly the case I tried to. make in this book and it's certainly the. ethos that saturates the course. offerings in Peterson Academy you know. we're we're trying to encourage people. to take maximal responsibility to have. an adventurous life to pursue an ethical.

Pathway to tell the truth and to educate. themselves broadly and aesthetically and. so far it seems to be working you know. people are pleased with the I'm so. excited about this I mean I got to hand. it to my daughter and her husband um. they've done a bang up job of of putting. this together the courses are really. beautiful they're. very they're they're comp. they're very well produced and uh the. technology works like a charm and the.

social media Network so far is behaving. exactly how we hoped it would behave. when we were feeling particularly. optimistic and so and we had now have. the capital to put all the things that. we wanted to build into the system into. place so translation into multiple. languages that'll be on the table very. soon a radical expansion of the. curriculum we're going to predicate it. on I think something appr approximating. the Chicago great books tradition so. we're imagining something like the. selection of great books that would.

characterize a high quality education in. the humanities one course something like. a minimum of one course per great book. that's beautiful I can't see any reason. we can't do that we have an excellent. stable of professors all of them want to. continue working with us um I think. that's true without exception so far and. I'm able to make contact with great. lecturers all the time and to keep. discovering them that's beautiful. congratulations fantastic I've been. tweeting out funny ads about being the. most Progressive University in the world.

because well the progressives hope for. Universal. education at something approximating. zero cost. well that's what we've got it's open to. anyone and it's no one comes out with. debt so that seems pretty Progressive to. me absolutely so and I'm very excited. about the translation possibilities cuz. AI systems are getting pretty good at. that so we'll have our lectures be able. to lecture in other languages using.

their own voice and modify the vide so. that it appears that they're speaking. that language so God only knows how many. languages we'll be able to translate our. material into you know as the AI systems. develop and it gets cheaper and cheaper. so yeah exciting it's exciting and the. essay app you know that teaches people. to write it works helps people figure. out what they want to write about it. runs them through the process of. generating their ideas and then it. teaches them how to edit and so and. there's no difference between doing that.

and teaching people to think absolutely. so hopefully we can provide people with. content and we can teach them the. mechanics of thinking and writing it's. fantastic yeah that's fun it's fun and I. think we'll be able to do it I I mean. you're already doing it so we've got. 30,000 students and the system seems to. be working so we've got a proof of we've. got good proof of concept now absolutely. yeah well congratulations Jordan it's. bril honestly brilliant and uh can't. wait to enroll myself I'll be doing that.

straight after this good and uh Jordan. we end every on purpose episode with the. final five and these questions have to. be answered in a one word to one. sentence maximum so how long a sentence. uh you you define it you're teaching. everyone how to write and think of I'll. go with your definition all right. question one what is the best life. advice you've ever heard or received. tell the truth or at least don't lie. number two what is the worst advice you. ever heard or received it's all about.

you number three how would you define. your current. purpose I think I'm doing in my way the. same thing the same thing that Elon Musk. said that he was doing when I. interviewed him which is to continue. exploring the limits of possibility. that's an adventure right to explore the. limits of possibility a lot of times. possibility comes to you as. tragedy that's a good thing to. understand you know they say every.

treasure has a. dragon right but you can reverse. that and that's worth knowing too if. something terrible comes your way it's. like there's an opportunity there like. it might be not the kind of opportunity. you would have wished for but that. doesn't mean it isn't there yeah so. that's a good thing to know have have. you spent a significant of time with. Elon musque or is it has it been more in. I've met him four time so we've probably. spent a total of about 7 hours together.

yeah and I would say I've walked away. from each. encounter more impressed with. him as a character and in terms of his. character I mean you have to be mouth. open in amazement with regards to his. technological and managerial. entrepreneurial prowess I mean it's just. it's. ridiculous but I believe that he. doing his best to aimim. up thank. God and I think that's what the Mars.

Voyage is symbolize right he's it's a. mythological. adventure to aim up in that manner and. he's it's part of his. story right it's the mythological. dimension of his story and it's not. practical right except in so far as a. great story is practical. so I remember the Apollo voyages they. were very motivating to people you know.

as an indication of what Humanity was. capable of doing and certainly musk is. playing that out on the technological. side so beautiful okay question number. four uh how do we scale trust by. attempting to practice honesty in your. own life yeah and by rewarding it among. the people that you interact with it's. very useful to understand. that you have the opportunity to point. out to other people who you interact.

with regularly what they're doing that. is positive and good and that. that there's nothing in that that isn't. productive yeah well said absolutely uh. Fifth and final question we ask this to. every guest who's ever been on the show. if you could create one law that. everyone in the world had to follow what. would it be don't follow stupid rules. what what constitutes a stupid rule well. that's the that's the hard part of the.

problem isn't it I think well I I had. that conversation with my kids because. it is something I told them when they. went to school I said look there's going. to be reasonable rules at your school. and there are going to be unreasonable. rules and I don't require you to follow. the unreasonable rules but you have to. be willing to bear the. consequences right so you're morally. obliged to object to to foolish. restrictions but you have to be willing. to pay the price for that and there will.

be a price and it has to be you that. pays it right and that's hard yes yes. it's also the difference between. activism let's say and Civil. Disobedience because if it's Civil. Disobedience you pay the price if it's. activism someone else does powerful well. I hope everyone subscribe to the podcast. if you don't already check out Peterson. Academy if you haven't already new book. out in November we who wrestle with God. we got glimpses into it today uh Dr. Jordan B Peterson thank you so much for.

your time and energy I hope we get to do. this again uh extremely grateful for. your time and energy and uh I learned a. lot today and actually I feel I could. have talked to you for another three. hours about eastern and western religion. and ideologies and the amount of stories. that I had coming up in my mind to to. share back and forth but we can just. save that for another time that would be. good that it' be it'd be it'd be we did. a little bit of that we got we got into. the overlap between the The Narrative. domains that would be real.

loveful I don't I don't know nearly as. much about Hindu religious thought as I. should I know a little bit about. Buddhism and and a a moderate amount. about dosm and that's been extremely. useful to me but um I'm less conversant. with with the Hindu tradition of thought. and it would be very interesting to I. mean I've never delved deeply almost. without exception into a religious. tradition without finding stories that.

were like of incalculable value. absolutely yeah well I happy to serve. wherever possible yeah yeah well so yeah. that would be a good thing to do thank. you thank you so much good to talk to. you fantastic such a pleasure honestly. if you love this episode you'll love my. interview with Dr gabo mate on. understanding your trauma and how to. heal emotional wounds to start moving on. from the past. everything in nature grows only where. it's vulnerable so a tree doesn't grow. where it's hard and thick does it it. grows where it's soft and green and.

vulnerable.