Jerrod Carmichael ON: How To Reframe Shame Into Self Growth

The biggest conversations in my life, the scariest ones, won't even lead to. like devastation. It just could. potentially lead to like a moment of. discomfort. discomfort, of cringe, or. whatever. And it's worth it. author and host. The number one health and wellness. podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty. When I look at you, you're very private. on social media, and you don't post a. lot. I wanted to understand, was that. intentional? Is that. my little private I have my private IG.

but it's it's so weird and someone. called me out on it. It's like, "You're. private and verified." And like it's. it's it's silly. It's really. like my publicist like set it up with. the intention of like posting about. shows and and the like. And I'm someone. who doesn't want attention unless like I. I ask for it. I'm probably the worst. celebrity. whatever ever cuz I never really chased. it. I I really just like to work and. then present that. And and that's pretty.

much it. And like something like. Instagram is really it is me. I wouldn't. want to present like a false version of. myself. So. I I wouldn't want to be presentational. So I kind of close it off to just like. as of right now maybe I don't know if. I'll ever do it. I'll probably delete it. before I open it. But like. I can be like more honest in like a. controlled like I can just post things. that I would actually I would actually. text these things to everyone. And so I.

can remain truthful on Instagram and and. non-perform I'm a performer who's trying. to remain non-performing. How's that going? Okay. It's okay. Yeah, yeah. No, I it's. it's I've become funnier I think like on. stage and stuff. by not performing like by being. truthful. Like yeah, yeah. I think it's. a better version of myself. Uh but yeah, it's hard it's hard to in.

life it's hard to do that. Well, that. must feel very comforting I can imagine. because I feel like for so many. performers there's someone on stage. because that's their job and then. there's someone at home cuz that's who. they are. And so there's always this conflict. inside and outside. What for you has been like the biggest. impact on who you are today? Like if you. had to say this is a recipe of how I was. created, what would you add to that. recipe to say like Gerard is a little. bit of this and a little bit of that?

Like what's Sugar and spice and yeah. Um. it's a big question. It's a big. question. It's a huge question. Um I I I don't know if I'll be able to. fully answer it cuz like you know, I'm. influenced by I'm I'm influenced by. you know, the time I'm in, the who I am, being. American, all of those things that we're. all influenced by. as a performer, influenced by. you know, everyone from. Cosby to you know, Jack Benny to.

you know, to Rock and Chappelle and. really good people like people who are. really good at their job. But lately. I've been really influenced by just this. this drive to not lie. You know, like like to not lie and like. it it's made me a. storyteller because then like just. trying to. you know, tell. things about me or things in my life. that like are scary. is funnier.

I found for the work and being around. people that I don't have to. try and protect my my words with. is is more comforting. Yeah. When when. when you were growing up like what was. the environment for you growing up? You. we just talked about North Carolina. which is where. you were born and raised, right? So like. what was the environment like when you. were growing up and what, you know, for. you, how early was it that you. discovered that this was going to be a. path in life? Cuz I think for me, I'm. always intrigued to figure out how.

people discover things they're. passionate about and things that they. love because that's so rare. How early. was it for you and what was the. environment that you grew up in? It was. pretty early. Like, I was a kid that. performed a lot. Like, I asked for a. microphone every year at Christmas. That. was like my constant I was like obsessed. with microphones as a kid. I sang on the. choir. Even when I was like a like. three, my mom was an usher and she would. after church like I would cry until she.

held me up to the mic so I could I just. liked I like it. I really respect it. It's powerful. Amplifies your voice. People listen to it like so intimately. in a performance setting. Even now like. people are listening to this through. headphones. Like, you know, it's like so. personal. Uh and so like my whole life I've kind. of always felt that way. I've always. filmed things. I've always. written. I've always. I've always performed. And and then. I fought against it I think for a.

period. I was really encouraged by a. friend to make the leap and move to LA. and do that. I lived here for like 10. years. Um and. I thought it was like arrogant cuz I do. think asking for people's attention. is precious. Like, I try not to be like. super precious in my work, but like. asking for their time, like doing a show. if I'm doing a show and I put up tickets. and people spend money for tickets and. then they drive out to the venue and. they sit there and they wait for you and.

then they listen to you. Like, that's. that's asking a lot and so especially. recently like just like respect that. more. Mhm. You know, like like I think I. have the respect that has been growing. in me since childhood for it. The. nudging of a friend got me out to LA, but. it it was uh. yeah, I love performance. I I love. hearing that because I feel the same way. that, you know, some some people listen. to this podcast every day. So, they. listen to the two new episodes and then.

they'll listen to old episodes. And I'm. thinking, sometimes I'm in people's ears. every week for 5 to 7 hours a week. And. I'm thinking that is so I'm so. fortunate, right? Like there's so much. gratitude around that that someone. allows you into their Whether you're. walking the dog right now, whether. you're cooking, whether you're editing, whether you're cleaning, whatever you're. doing at home right now. And. you said that that you've always had. that kind of like that belief that. having someone's ears or eyes or money.

or them turning up is is precious. Tell. me about then you How does that lead. into your creative process? Because I. feel like for me, knowing that I just finished writing my. second book. It took me 2 years to write. it. And I put a lot of effort into it. And I know that when I've written a book. and it's taken 2 years of my life to. write it, I'm putting it out, I have to. the creative effort is so high because. A, the book pages don't change. You. can't edit those pages once they're out. And someone's going to take their time.

It takes like What is like written word? Like written word is so I always thought. it's crazy that Twitter uses the word. publish, right? Because like it's like. it induces in me such anxiety just. thinking about the how permanent it is. in in placing things out there that you. can't get back. And like uh that's why. like. if I'm going to perform, I think it's. like I I I don't do social media because. I would like to put all of that energy. in and I don't even say I don't do.

social media. Even that in itself could. be a grand performance. I mean, I love. like Kanye is. in incredible. perform like, you know, uh like it is. very. in in that like it's spectacle to use. a Jordan Peele word. But, you know, that's its own art form. It. can be its own art form. But, but like I. put all of my energy into like I'm a. comedian and I make specials and I make. television programming or whatever.

programs. I make a. movies occasionally. And and whenever I'm doing that, I would. only like put all of my energy and all. of my thoughts to that. Yeah. And and then present that. I know I'm. kind of repeating myself. no, but go deeper into it. Yeah, go deeper. into it. And and what's your creative. process like? So, you're saying you put. all of your energy, but like when you're. building a special or one of those TV. shows, like how do you even start? Like. where where's the process? What's the. starting point? Like how do you get.

inspired at the beginning of it? I mean, it's a spark of something, you know, something a lot of times like anger. I. think I started this just like a little. angry. Then just started performing, doing clubs, and then solo shows, and. then. you know, preparing to do it for. television and like I do stand-up for. specials. I think at my core that's like. like I think my intention reads better. in that medium. Yeah, yeah.

And uh. working backward from what that is, then. you know, take the writing and like form. a show and like it just kind of hap This. is hap- My last special, it happened. really fast. Um just frustrations with. secrets and and. feeling too old to keep them and and. too, you know, like I didn't feel like. an adult. I didn't feel like I had. control of my own life. And so that. you know, created a lot of urgency to.

find a way to. resolve that. And and art is just that. attempt. Like make a special and that's. like my attempt. Now, I'm sorry. I'm. probably going all over the place with. this. great. I mean, that's a great answer to. hear the That Honestly, that's that's. not. I'm I'm speaking I I'm trying not to be. like evasive about it. It really is just. like it's I've been writing for years. Like like and and and I'm always. writing. Sometimes that becomes a show. Sometimes it becomes something that like. it's mostly like most of creating is. just a bunch of like.

trying and failing that no one sees. Yeah. You know, and like uh you know, failing in my own writing, failing in my. own head over and over and over and over. again and like trying to make something. write a show, you know, um structure a. show. Yeah. Yeah. But, I love what you said that anger or. frustration. with your own identity and your secrets, I mean, that that whole concept. is so real, I think, for so many of us,

whatever that secret may be, whatever. that identity may be personally. it to like, you know, my friends like I. I really think like everybody's in the. closet about something. Yeah. Right? There's a a thing Shame is. such a powerful emotion. A strong I. mean, there's plenty of books about just. how it can dictate the course of your. life and your actions and your behavior. And so much is driven by shame and so. much of. who we are is just our attempts to hide.

that little piece of ourselves that can. never be seen. Um at least it's been a common. experience amongst people I've talked to. and friends. I'm sure you get a high. volume of. Totally. of it. And so, yeah, it was um. exciting and really scary to try and. make something that. dealt with that head-on. And And that's. how I've been feeling in my personal. life, just. even though it's kind of a blur between. my work and my personal life now. Um. but, I've been trying to have. conversations that I'd never had and.

trying to deal with shame and trying to. restructure my relationship with God. Wow. You know, like like. am I the funniest comedian you've had on. the show? I'm the funniest, right? That's a scary question. That's a scary. question. Yeah. I hope I'm killing right now. No, but the shame but the shame parts I love. that you went in that direction because. I think that naturally shame is one of. those topics that isn't talked about a. lot publicly. So to even bring it up in. a podcast is is great because we can.

actually talk about it, but I find that. we also live in a culture where shaming. has become more normal. Right? So we're. talking about a time when we realized. how. powerful shame is as an emotion and how. much it limits us from truly being. ourselves. At the same time shaming or. cancel culture is is growing at the same. time. How do you mean? What do I feel like. today we point more fingers at others. cuz we know more of what others are. doing. We are more likely to tear.

someone down because we can, whereas in. the past you wouldn't have access to do. that. You might do it in your. dining table or you might do it on your. couch at home, but you didn't have the. ability to go on social media and leave. hate comments or whatever it may be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's. interesting that you're saying that at. the same time as you're saying that, "Hey, we need you know, shame is holding. people back from being themselves.". We're also shaming others more, I guess. So we have more opportunity to Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have an an.

opportunity to speak a lot. That's a funny statement in and of. itself. Yeah. It's it's it's it's so. much of that, so much of that. And um to. speak constantly. and emotionally, you know, it's it's. hard to like have intention in every. tweet, in every post, in every Should we. is the question. Yeah, yeah, well, it's it's even more. powerful than the words spoken in a. private setting, you know, because it's.

something that. is even if you have one follower, you. know, it has the potential of being. seen and expressed amongst others. So, like, you know, your intention reads and. and. yeah, it it and and I question that a. lot. I mean, I mean, we could go down. and on for hours and hours about about. like its effect on us and like, you. know, even just thinking about. even myself when I'm on like Instagram. on my little private IG, right? I I, you.

know, I I have a. decent group of friends that I follow. and it's just it's so abnormal to catch. up or have the illusion of catching up. with all of them, you know, like. constantly all like on loop. There there. are people sometimes that I see that I. feel like I've seen, but I haven't. actually had that experience with them. I've only had like this experience with. the. representative that's, you know, uh. uh. you know, like like on close friends or.

whatever, you know, and and and. yeah, it it it's just not like. expressing that much. Like, I I I have. this theory that we all are kind of. becoming our own news channel. Like, we're all the news and we have to fill. we're all CNN or Fox or whatever and we. all have to fill the time. Like, we have. to fill the space. Like, you like and. the more you do it, the more inclined. you are to do it. and again, it's just hard to keep that.

married to intention, you know, like the. sheer volume. If you just speak, if I. wake up in the morning, I just speak all. day and I never pause. I I it would be difficult to promise. that everything I say would have as much. intention. Yeah. Because just the sheer. volume. Yep. I like that theory. I like. that theory a lot. That's cool because. I went to someone's house once and it's. without a doubt the coolest house I've. ever been to. This is a very cool house.

So, you're saying that from a very cool. house. No, but this was like this is like and. and I'm saying it's a cool house not. because of the building, not because of. the grandeur, not because and same with. this. I don't think that's what why I. think I like my own house was because of. what he had in it. So, he had a whole. wall. and he called it the fake news wall. because it was every piece of news that. was published before they knew the time. So, back in the day if a newspaper was.

being printed Huh. if a game wasn't. over, they'd have to print the news with. who was winning at the time. Wow. that right? So, all of this whether it was people. winning games, whether it was votes, whether whatever it was, it was like. articles that had been printed before. the fact. Wow. had all of it in America like all these. big and I was thinking this is. fascinating and what you're saying right. now is that without intention. a lot of what we create is fake news in. our own little news channels.

Yeah, well well because things change. You know, your your. uh my opinion on an album. for instance, even just something as. trivial as like you know, my my feelings. toward a song or an album, whatever. Like it changes. It changes over the. course of a week. It changes through how. I listen to it. It you know, I I imagine. if I were just talking publicly about. Kendrick's last album. I I which I went. from not understanding to not liking to. only liking the interludes to then. listening to it while I was getting a.

Manny Petty and I turned the volume. halfway down so I could like actually. like hear the words. I had to focus on. the words. Something about like the. lower volume made me pay attention more. and like hearing what he was saying and. then being in love with the album. And. those tweets would have been a roller. coaster. Like just like of emotion if I. just like if I put that out like. constantly because your thoughts towards. something should like change and evolve. and like sometimes may take a little. while to reach stable ground on. And.

some people would argue that the journey. is authenticity. Yes. But but what is. what is authenticity to you as a. comedian as as someone who's like the. theories that you just said like how do. you how do you define what is authentic. and real and what what isn't for you? I. I try and a lot of things are true, right? Like you can go I could I was. presenting a lot of. true things, right? Like things that I. thought were hard facts or perspective.

that people wouldn't want to say out. loud or be able to tolerate and and you. know, I. did believe it and it was true. But it. wasn't like in my eyes the most. compelling version of of of the truth. I. found like now like when working I run. toward things I'm afraid of and that. that have personal consequence. in my life. So talking about me cuz I. never really talked about myself before. Never considered myself a storyteller.

Um and this is something I'm in many. ways making art while learning in real. time. But but it is and has become my. live show. Just like this kind of. personal exploration. Not just that. things that bring me shame, things that. bring like and and again, it's hard to. talk about the show Yeah. only because I'm sure I'm making it so. I I must give the the caveat that it's.

actually funnier than I've been but I I. I try and keep it. compelling. You know, like I try and. keep stakes in the act and like tension. there. Like that's my new. focus It is, you know, both sides of. like give the audience a lot like a more. like more giving and I have more need of. for them now more than ever and I like. that experience. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really personal now. Like, it's. it's the things that are dangerous to me. like the Evil Knievel things are like my.

feelings toward, you know, myself or my. feelings toward, you know, relationships that I had. What was What. was the first thing you think you ever. combated through that art exploration. internally as a fear? Like, I love that. idea that. your storytelling now or your specials. there a exploration of something you're. scared of. What was the first ever thing. do you remember that you were scared of. that I mean, no, that's I I kind of baby. stepped into my last project. Right. Uh.

so, I I was like I made these documentaries. for HBO. Then, I went home and I was. con- fronting like my my. father's adultery and my mother's. forgiveness of him. And I tried to come. out to my mom, but I did it in a very uh. it it was fearful. So, like, I was like. I hooked up with dudes before like just. like kind of.

waiting for a reaction. You know, and. and it wasn't full truth. And. then, you know, sometime later I like came out to my. family and it had. still resonating consequences. to that. It affected our relationship in. a in a real way. There's a lot of. anxiety and not speaking. I've kind of. separated myself from my family a lot. recently. I only share because I'm still in that. part of the process. I want to be honest.

about it. I don't you know, like what if. I. like and I. pray that it gets better and. we should talk later about what prayer. means to me. But. but but it's um. you know, it great again like kind of. personal consequence. And so, my last. special Rothaniel was. me Yeah. you know, really kind of drawing a line. in the sand with my family coming out. publicly, contending with my my father's.

adultery, its effect on me, kind of generational trauma caused by. adultery, caused by having other kids. outside the marriage that were kept. secrets, and how just years of secrets. of like kind of repressed us and. repressed me into a liar, you know, not. unable a liar and unable to tell my own. truth. And so, I look at the special as being. um. the the synopsis could read like on HBO. like man afraid of heights jumps out of.

an airplane for the first time. Like. that was my last special. Like that was. the the intention was doing the scariest. thing I could imagine. I never thought I. would ever come out. I was afraid. of the public's reaction. I was mostly. afraid of my mother's. That that was the. the feat walking onto the stage and. doing it. Yeah. That's I mean that even just. hearing you say that, I mean. that is so inspiring as a as a creative. person like to hear that. your creative impetus or intentional.

process is to confront a fear, a shame, something that difficult. And of course, you're doing it through comedy, which is. even harder in one sense because you're. making these extremely deep traumatic. events, you know, lighthearted to some degree. where people are able to be entertained. But the thing is, what I found with. audiences is that when I go when I share. things that are personal to me, um no matter what the danger, and I've.

said things that are I mean, this. happened in real time and like it's like. tweets like art is capturing a moment in. time. That's why I try and focus all the. energy on one thing. Like my my special. is just one IG live. You know what I mean? Like it's like. it's like the one thing that I focused. on. I found that when I when it's. personal, it's not the same. Audiences like you. can't like I'm talking about how I feel. I'm talking about me. I'm talking about. things I went through and how that. developed this perspective, right?

That's all truthful. Is different than if I'm just like. talking about which you you can do. I. I'm all for. whether you like it or not kind of. comedy, free speech. You have every. right to do that. Like and comedians do. that and I did that in most of my. career, but still up until recently was. a lot of that. Trying to say the thing I. like to think of mine was more. intellectual, but that's my own. egotistical argument for it, but you.

know, but. now I'm talking about me. And when I'm. talking about me, like audiences react. with empathy or compassion. Even when I. say sometimes I say like some wild. things. You know, but it's mine. It's personal. Like that's that's definitely you have. ownership over how you feel, you know, and and that's what I want my art to be. just like how I feel right now. Just. like a. an emotion, like a pure intention. bottled. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A lot. Yeah, I I get.

that. You've you've said It's. interesting though. Your language is. like full of like intention, truth, like. Yeah, and I almost hate that. I almost. hate it because it's like these are. powerful words that obviously get. overused and I'm sure I'm overusing it, but. but it's like the word platform. Like I. hate the word platform. don't think you're overusing them. I I. feel like. I don't think you're overusing them from. from at least what I'm I'm generating. from this conversation. Like I guess I. guess what I'm fascinated by is like. what you said. You said you were. I think you used the word and I could.

have got the word wrong, but you said. you were reconstructing your. relationship with God or reframing that. And then you said, "Let me define what. prayer is to me." There's two both those. things. What What how did you say that. prayer? It's in many ways one in the. same because I think my entire life I've. kind of believed this, but didn't have. the language to to articulate how I. felt. And that is truly taking the. Christianity that I was taught Mhm. growing up my whole life.

into church every Sunday. even when my mama worked, I went with my. grandma, sang in the choir. uh Sunday school class into regular. service, stayed after, talked in the. parking lot, full church boy. And learning about God. the man in the sky who at, you know, your request can show you benevolence. and at. at as consequence for your sins punish. you.

Right? And I was um I was taught. about this man. um and internalized this man and uh. he dictated my actions and my words and. my fear. And. I then I read this book. uh by Eric Butterworth. um called Discover the Power Within You. And it helped me articulate how I how I. felt, which is. if you take Christ's words as philosophy.

right? Like just like. um. take away this. human need to worship. the light and just listen. Um and accepting your own divinity and. and by divinity I don't want to be. confused because I think. loose sometimes non-religious people. I. mean, your you know, potential for. to function fully. That's all something. that Christ has said that you have. You.

you have. at birth. It is your right and you are. essentially God. manifesting himself as Jay, as Gerard. You know, like it it it's I accept that. I accept my own potential. I realize. that prayers are just affirmations that. you are asking for what you already. have. I think it's why like good advice. feels familiar. Someone says something you're like, yes. Oh, yes. I knew that.

Yeah. You know, that's why you connect. with it. That is so true. And it's it it. is there, you know, and it's divinity. that that we all have access to. Um. but it's always like the. you know, practice that's rough, right? Because it's easier It was easier for. me. I want to speak personally. It was. easier for me to just accept a God that. I can sin and then ask for forgiveness. and you know, a Bible that I didn't. fully understand and and and and just.

kind of accept that there's this. external force dictating and. it you know, that kind the devil. relinquished me of responsibility for my. own actions. I was able to kind of back. away from things. That wasn't me. That. was the devil, you know, and. now by internalizing that that that. philosophy and seeing it as philosophy, I I had to remove the magic from the. Bible, right? And this is what works for. me and I'm saying it cautiously because.

I know like I can still see the ears of. my mother perking up. So, I'm like I'm. saying that this is what what uh has. helped me um and and. just like realizing that God is me. functioning as I can, you know, and. things function as they can. Access to. good like we all have access to good. even through tragedy, even through pain. You know, those words. of the Bible become different. They hit.

a little different when you accept. yourself as innately divine, right? You. know, um. uh all things work for good for through. God who strengthens me. You know, like. Philippians is is is something. that you you know, you. oh, I can use all of this for good. I. can take what you know, I can take the. rubble or things from the ashes and make. something new out of this and continue. forward like with a sense of purpose. With a sense of duty. I I can form that.

You know, taking tragedy and we see it. all the time like, you know, uh. parents of children who've gone through. tragedies or or, you know, people just. with loved ones who who've experienced. something and then they take what's been. destroyed and they make something new, you know, and and and that that is the. Bible. That's using your own innate. power to move forward and. um. that's the line between me and my.

mother. That's been the line between me. and the church my entire life. I I've always wanted to believe that and. it wasn't until I came out or even. accepted, let's just say accepted who I. was. uh that I. uh. was forced to then say, "Okay, well, God. has talked to me. is not accepting of me.". And I had to re-examine in order to not. destroy myself. Yeah. I love hearing.

your. thought process because it's so real. like you're so in it and. as someone who's created a. piece of art based on a fear, you've had. to live through that fear again and. again and again in the creation process. How did it feel? Did you feel that. making a piece of art on that. relinquished a fear, and now you can. move on to another shame or another. guilt or another fear, or what was the. what was it like? Yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah,

yeah. I And And speaking of that fear, like I was like I did a few shows on the. road in preparation for the special, and. like I was like coming out to audiences. that knew me. Like every night. Like like it was like a new It was like. jumping off a cliff, like That's what I. mean. Yeah. yeah. Um and it was a lot, but it is how. I knew it's the direction I needed to go. in because it did scare me, and I, you. know, I've learned to trust that feeling.

isn't always that. I'm going in the wrong direction, but in. fact that I'm going There's like a lot. of. fertile ground. Yeah. Yeah, it's the the fear It It just. stays. It just stays the whole time the. whole time until it's released, and then. you kind of release the fear. Did you. feel you released the fear when that. happened? Or. Yeah, many ways Well in many ways. because I feel. more truthful publicly now, which feels great. Yeah. That feels. really really good. Yeah, and so I don't.

have. the fear of being found out in that way. But there are still I'm definitely still. fighting through shame and how it's. manifested itself in my life through. you know, things that. really are like that I could call. hypochondria or OCD or whatever, but are. really like anxieties rooted in shame. that I'm working through and that I'm. trying to understand better myself. And I feel it like my job to explore.

that. You know, so. I kind of chase that feeling. I don't. recommend it. I was I was just about to say. I was. like, how do you recommend people do. this? Because I think that whether. you're a performer or not, we all have. to go through this process. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I do recommend. like for whatever it's worth me saying. like that you run toward all of the. things that you're afraid of in in a. truthful way. Contend with it with an.

open mind. I think that's very very. important. How did you do it in a way that didn't. break you or hurt you or because I think. that's where people are scared of shame. and guilt because it feels like a broken. piece of glass. Yeah. And so when you pick up a broken piece. of glass, you could get cut. So people. are like, oh, it's just better to just. shove it away. Like. Yeah. I don't know and I'm still like, you know, I still like I feel like I'm. still picking it up but but good friends. very very important in my case um and. you know, people that remind me where.

the ground is. You know, like. just get caught up in all of it all of. it. Anxiety's real. I'm I'm recently. admitting that I experience anxiety. I I. ran away from admitting that much of my. life. Yeah. I can relate to that. I remember. a few years ago. my mom would always tell me, I think. you're stressed. And I'd be like, no, I'm not stressed. I'm fine. And I didn't even want to admit it to.

myself. So it's not that I was lying to. her. I was lying to myself. I didn't. even want to because I was scared that. if I let that in, then that would change me somehow. That. it would block me and stop me. And I didn't realize that. And that you're weak. Totally. Yeah. thought that you're weak. How dare you? Oh, you're being consumed by these Oh, this small little thing is eating you up. and it's just like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And. I had a friend that I I I going through.

depression very early on and like this. when we were much younger and I didn't I. was like how can you be depressed? Like. you've got nothing to be depressed you. know that kind of mindset. Yeah. Then. you go through something yourself and. you go oh god I experienced depression. like. Yeah. Yeah. scared of accepting it and it took me it. was the same for me it was the weak. aspect it was the aspect of no no no. some people have it much worse like what. am I complaining about? It was it was. the shame that came with oh no but I'm. you know I if my mom thinks I'm stressed. then she'll get stressed the guilt the.

all of that. And any excuse not to. Correct. Like yeah yeah. it and I feel like you. just keep putting it off and now I've. realized that. I need to. talk to that feeling or emotion when it. arises because. me putting it away just makes it get. bigger and darker and deeper. Yeah. And. Yeah. that's what I find so interesting doing. it through art because. when you're putting it out in front of. other people again now it's their mind.

their impression gets involved too like. what they're going to think of it. What. what is it right now if you said that. there was a fear right now or a shame or. guilt right now that you're trying to. unpack next like is there something that. not that you're working on specifically. for a new project but even just in your. own life? Yeah you know probably. um emotional blocks that like stopped me. from being in like a healthy. relationship with with someone um. Wow. you know and and as someone who. came out publicly later I I.

realized that there are phases and. things that I go through and. that that it's normal to go through it. but but just. understanding those blocks um. has been. interesting to me as of as of late um. and dealing with the the things that. don't sound cool. Like give me an example. Well well only because not that I. not even that I don't want to, but but.

I'm only respecting that on stage is a. different place. that that allows me to say things. I get it. That that like that like I may say. something that I'm like, well, now we. need another hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You. know, I'm like, well, do can we can I. explain everything that led to that? You. know, like I I don't know. I love that. Yeah, yeah, nothing I mean, you know, just things that are. personally scary to me, you know, like. you know,

there are no bodies or anything, but. like but you know, there are like, you. know, things that have like emotional. consequences that that I um. you know, run from. I like I like how simple you went back. to. It's just like good friends. Like, you know, friends are just It sounds. like such a basic thing, and I was I We. had some friends over that hadn't seen. for years this weekend. And we were all. just appreciating that as well in terms. of I remember I I've been coaching. people for a long time. And that was really what my work was.

before I did any of what I do today. And. all I ever met was people who were. lonely at the top. Like, that was. consistent with my experience. And so. I would often say to myself that while. I'm building my life, I don't want I. want to make sure that I build. relationships at the same time as build. things. And I don't just mean like love. and romantic. I mean like friendships as. you were saying. And so And I've realized just how much. time that takes, how much energy that. takes, how much effort that takes, but. how fulfilling it is. And it sounds so.

simple, and it's so basic. Oh, it's difficult in its own way. And it's almost. a lot of the things that drive you to be. successful are isolating. Yeah. Like. there is. a lot of accepted selfishness. even amongst friend like I I at times. have been a horrible friend. Like a very. selfish friend. Like I mean just like. get on the phone, talk about me for an. hour. All right, bye. You know, just like a one-sided friend,

a. a. a friend who's used money to supplement. connection. A friend who's like kept friends at. arm's distance so I could work or focus. or however I justified it. And I still. do that. I still do that. Like that like. like like in in. and I and I and I value. my work. And so that specifically in art. like it's like license to sometimes. indulge in like behavior or in emotions. that are harmful to relationships.

And I can't tell if that's. Look, it's not okay cuz it's like but. it's like an occupation. hazard. Occupational hazard, yeah. Yeah, it's an occupational hazard. It's. like you're I don't know, I have to go. there. Like I have to go into this cave. Well, I think the part I find. fascinating about it is the awareness of. it, right? I think I think the lack of. awareness, a lot of people may be doing. that but they don't even know why. Yeah. Whereas and and I can relate to a lot of. that. Like I've I've definitely been. very clear with.

friends, family, things like that about. what I can and can't do based on what. I'm working on. But it's different when it's carved out, when it's communicated. Yeah. And when. it's Yeah. And and right? Like. That helps. That definitely helps. That. definitely helps me like and that's a. part of honesty and not lying to. yourself about what you're doing. Yeah, being able to say okay. Like I used to I would be so late to. work, you know, just because like I'm. just in my head and like I know how long. it takes me to like shift gears and like.

I would lie to them about I didn't. realize I was lying but I would be like. we're starting at 3:00. Yeah. You know, and then like 5:30 I'm like, "Okay, I'm. ready." You know, and he's and I'm. wasting his time. I'm being a horrible. It's not even productive for me because. like now I'm trying to like work closely. with someone who's like. like justifiably frustrated with me. Totally. You know, and so like just like. learning to communicate even like, "Oh, look, this is how I'm feeling right now.

This is how I'm feeling today." So we're. working on like. I don't even know if we're going to get. to it. And he's like, "Look, then I'll. make it as a loose plan.". Exactly. And I'll either see you at 3:00. or in 2 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and and. why we're so scared of communicating, and that's what I I feel the same way. I. used to talk about it in relationships. So. with my wife, for a long time I'd always. be like. uh three nights three nights this week I. just need to spend time alone. Mhm. Mhm.

You can say that, or you can say, "Hey, these three nights I'm working on this. thing, which means I need some time and. space." Yes. That's totally different. to, "Hey, these three nights I'm just. going to be unavailable.". Yeah. And and it takes a little bit more time. and energy and effort, and this isn't. about advice. It's just about the idea. of what you're saying that you're. actually creating more issues for. yourself by not communicating. And. the courage. that it takes has it just pays off. Like. like you just said, your friend's like, "Oh, I'm clear now." But saying the.

thing that saying the thing that. to say. potentially awkward. And it's. not even that a lot of a lot of times. like the biggest conversations in. in my life, the scariest ones, aren't. won't even lead to like devastation. It. just could potentially lead to like a. moment of discomfort. discomfort, of. cringe, or whatever. And it's worth it. It's worth it. My my. friends that I'm closest with have. called essentially have called me out on. a lie, which is a difficult thing to do,

and we survived it, and we're closer. because of it. Yeah. That's impressive. Yeah. That's. impressive. I mean, cuz most people. can't take that. But that's where it. comes back to awareness. Like even. earlier you mentioned ego. Mhm. And it. like even the ability to see your own. ego is a healthy sense of awareness. I. mean, we're in this attention economy. right now where like you said, we talked. about this, we started with this, the. idea that everyone's trying to grapple. for people's attention. People will even. invent things in their life to get. attention because it's so hard to get.

attention. When you're trying to not. even get attention. their children on the internet. Like. people are like. camera right like the children are like. sleeping. But but with that, like the attention. part, like how is it that. then in a world where then you're try. you're saying that you're still try you. still have to compete for attention, but. you're trying to do it for fear.

and exploration and art like how do you. to me that's like interesting to me. It's interesting cuz it's scary and it's. like it evokes a lot of emotion for me. and like not only respecting people's. time, but realizing. you know, just how hard it is to get. anyone's attention for a moment and. to make people feel anything, you know, because that's also the if you're. inundated with bad news even like you, you know, people A either seek good news. through their art or B like, you know,

only a really authentic version of. something can even resonate or have the. potential to resonate with with a viewer. or listener. And and so, you know, I I respect it and. I know it's hard. So, like that's why I. like save it for when it's ready, you. know, even if it's a daily show. If I. were doing a daily show, I would still I. would just save it all for that night, you know, like like just like. But that's just how again, I say that. with a disclaimer with a non-judgmental.

disclaimer of you know, of someone who. follows accounts all Instagram that I. find funny or in some ways inspirational. or whatever, but it's always like. there's always like the truth that like. really gets me. That's why I love. sports. Yeah. Sports is true. I watch I don't. even watch sports, but I watch ESPN. Oh. All day, every day. SportsCenter, Around. the Horn, like yeah, yeah, PTI, like. just like like facts, facts, facts, truth, truth, truth.

Opinions, I plenty of opinions, it's funny. Yeah. It's just an honest. What's your favorite sport? Whatever. Oh, right. Oh, it doesn't. matter. Oh, it doesn't matter. also like straight things for gay. reasons. So, like I'm like really. obsessed with the lighting of. basketball, you know, like. Like the stadium is like, you know, this. arena's gorgeous. That's cool. like, you know, the golden light of the. garden or whatever. Like I'm a but but. I'm obsessed with the production of it.

I'm obsessed with like, you know, That's funny. like it is. I like that. Sports is. truth. Yeah. Well, it's it's a TV show, like my my, you know, friends who really truly love. sports hate when I say that, but I'm. like, yeah, the NBA's just like a. long-running television program. Yeah. You know, like Michael Jordan was one of. my favorite stars of that program. He. got me to watch it on TV, you know, like. like it's you know, a tour. Yeah. It's a. televised tour. Yeah, that's I mean,

that's that's yeah, that's an. interesting way to see it. I mean, I'm. obsessed with soccer football. Yeah, but. the rules of performance when I go to. games, you know, it's like it's a full. show. They're also trying to keep the. audience's attention the whole time. In America, it's a show. In England, it's not a show. Yeah, in England, it's not like that. Oh, no, we're trying to. in England, there is no entertainment. but the sport. Oh, that's nice. is the entertainment. Well, even advertising in England seems. so like when you're going down like in. London, if you're walking down the. Strand, part of what makes it gorgeous. is that it's just like these really like.

these giant brick buildings that reflect. light well and and have no it's not a. lot of Ads, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's just. like clean. Yeah. Yeah. And sports is like that. You won't. You see sponsors on shirts obviously and. sponsors around the pitch, but. Yeah. it's it's different. Like I I. realized that when I came to the US I. was like, "Oh wow, everything's. entertainment. Everything you know, not. just the sport.". Yeah, yeah. You guys do do the giant. soccer. I don't like I mean some of the. jerseys are cool. I don't like it on the. NBA jerseys. It's like not worth the.

Yeah, yeah. The the real estate. "Yeah, you need Quicken Loans right. here.". Like give a kid a clean. jersey for the love of God. Um. but uh. Yeah, yeah. It's like I mean America's. done it in a way that's just so it's so. part of the culture. It's like even like. movies, you know, I fought really hard. in in my movie to even keep just like. Coke bottles or something cuz that is a. like to me that looks American. You're. looking at a photo photograph of of New. York or LA like I could in many places.

recognize it by the advertisements and. just like the pure ubiquity of it. Totally. Yeah. What's your take on I I guess as. looking at I love how you have theories. and insights on all different. industries. Looking at the advertising. industry or looking at product. placement, looking at that. Like is. there do you have any interesting. theories about how ads have changed. because obviously now we're going from. targeted ads, ads everywhere. I mean. you're you're off social media, but like. I'm just fascinated to hear your. thoughts on.

advertising and attention like and and. why we fall for every time because Yeah, I'm I'm susceptible to Me, too. I love. it. I love good advertising. an iPhone. iPhones aren't even the best. phones, but I bought one. Like I see Pixels and stuff. I'm like, "That is amazing." But you won't buy a. But you had Well, I mean. No. What am I going to like text my friends. from like a green bubble. Um but like it's because of the app like.

it it really sold like Apple sold me on. a dream and I'm a sucker who bought it. And like and it's sleek and it's cool. I. mean there's obviously great qualities. to it whatever, but like like I'm I'm. very susceptible to things. I'm I'm. susceptible to words and images just. like, you know, and so that's part of. the reason it's hard for me to see. things cuz I know like it's a lot for. me. That's why I have to like do the. YouTube no ads. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I mean now it's an interesting.

thing like, you know, it's a lot of. brands that are like afraid of its. customer like and really like a lot of. corporations that are very timidly. putting friendly diverse commercials for. that, you know, and they always wanted. to appease everyone, but like now I. think there's a lot of timidity to it. Um some of them are still creative, you. know, obviously Geico changed the world. Yeah, definitely. should be some type of award for like. just like yeah, like that gecko should. win like thing of the year.

Like like the time gecko time. Yeah, time gecko of the year cuz it's like. like I mean it did like it made. everything not about the product. You know, like like just like removed. from it. think that's my opinion. My I I probably. have an interesting view on this. I love. good advertising. Yeah. Yeah, I respect. it. I love it. respect it. Yeah, because I'm like if. that's if it's true, obviously if it's. true, that's that's a big part of it, but I love it when someone has thought.

about the aesthetics and someone has. thought about the presentation because I. can respect that that required a lot of. brain power, right? It It required that. innate It required some inner potential. It didn't They didn't just go, oh yeah, I just turned up. I I mean, bro, it's. like good advertising like. bro, when I it's I also respect the. Edward Bernays. you know, manipulation of it all. Like. just like, man, you really got me. You. really got just But yeah, but there's.

something there is fascinating to see. who had the ability to shift human. behavior. That is fascinating to observe. and I think if we observe that more, I. think we wouldn't get as sucked in by. it. Yeah. Right? Like because what we're. saying is we like good advertising, but. we know when it's advertising. Yeah. And. so I'm not saying I I can I'm not. susceptible to it, but I'm saying that. being able to see what's working on me. Well, it's it's Yeah, Yeah, it's just that exactly. That that.

what you're being presented. Okay, so. this is a this is probably a lot. So the. two parts. One, I'm perpetually trying. to change my mother and and test her. capacity for change and her ability to. question the source. Hey, is religion as. you've learned it something that may. have been manipulated over time and like. are all of these things like the divine. word of a divine being or are they. influenced by kings and politicians. alike over the course of the 2,000 years.

since, right? Uh so there's always that and so like. I'm. probably to a degree that is unhealthy, cynical and skeptical. and definitely believe conspiracy. uh a lot, but I also think that the. belief of conspiracy is. dangerous, right? Like so so it's like. trying to find middle ground, right? It's just like like because like the. belief of conspiracy is like. why we know anti-vaxers, right? Like.

it's just like every everyone's like, but Tuskegee experiment, but I'm like, one, that doesn't really make sense cuz. to me if the government's intention was. to control a population, then wouldn't. they put the thing in the vaccine that. actually saves you and just kill. everybody else? But that's a conspiracy. You know, that's a wild thing to say, too. But, like But, like But, like it's just a. rabbit hole of never-ending things. So, it's And I get that it's difficult to. know truth in new source now. But, like. it's trying to find middle ground.

between like. uh having a respectable um. I don't know, your own internal checks. and balances for the way you get your. information. and where you get the information that. dictates your life. And it's hard. It's It's just plain hard for people, I. think, today cuz it's like It's. exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting. It's. like, where do I go? Like. And And I don't And I And I want to be. honest and say there isn't a place to. say, "Hey, go to this website that gives. you the best news." Because there isn't, like, you know? And so, you're always.

going to have that. And I I wonder how. you feel. be less happy. You should do that. Like, that That's a thing like with. information. You'll be less happy. But, I think we're all less happy anyway cuz. we're receiving so much information. anyway. So, you might as well like. receive information that forces you to. self-examine. Correct. Correct. and. self-explore. So, it's like you We're. inundated with it anyway. Yeah, if you. can make time for it, absolutely. Like, and which everyone obviously is. But, we make time. Yeah. You know what I. mean? Like, we do make time. Like, the. busiest person like like, you know, all.

my friends and I know that I have like. the luxury of not having a day job. I. call It's half a luxury cuz I do need to. be busy to not drive myself crazy. But, like, you know, those I know that are. like working like 12-hour, 14-hour. shifts still find time to like be. inundated with information. You know. what I mean? Like, and a lot of it's. numbing. And again, it is exhausting, but it does.

lead to. I think a healthier life. Yeah. Yeah. Like, self-awareness and being able to. question It's My mother's fearful of the. ground that she's been walking on being. moved and and. uh and uh uh. and and I get that, but you know, not. I just wish it wasn't at the sacrifice. of of self-exploration. Well, I think. that you just hit on something really. powerful. Like for a long time, I. believed that what people most needed.

was care and love. Mhm. And I started to. realize that for most people, they. weren't searching for that. They're. searching for safety. Safety in an. ideology, safety in a relationship, safety and security and stability is. what people are looking for. And so, the. challenge with. confidently exploring an emotion or an. ideology feels unsafe. Yes. Because it makes you question what. you're standing on. Everything. Everything. But that.

requires you to recognize that it's more. unsafe to not examine Yes. what you think. Yes. Yeah. That's But that's a giant. leap. That's a giant leap. very giant leap. And and and it's like. it's easier to live under the the law of. platitudes, you know, and and not. explore. How do you find as a. as obviously like as a comedian and as. an actor, right? And like you're. directing, you're you're creating. Like. how does that help you explore the truth. differently? Or what is that doing.

that's different for you personally? Because obviously now, we just we've. literally just been extrapolating how. you do this as a comedian and how you do. this in your work. But then acting and. directing and creating is totally. different, right? Yeah. Yeah. It It Well, I mean, you've. been playing your parts of yourself. I've been doing that and I'm trying to. do less of that. I I don't want to be uh. multi-hyphenate. I'm not necessarily chasing that. I I do. think that I have a skill in multiple. things, but I would like to create.

focused work. And and and so, even like. acting. and directing my my last movie is is a. is something that I would never do again. and and I'm very thankful. I believe we. pulled it off and made something that. can like resonate with people that I. would rather focus on one thing. I think. that's important, you know, even like. the idea of like e-god is. cool. I would rather be the best at one.

of those things. You know what I mean? Like like but they do all. uh have one thing in common and that's. like finding truth and as an actor uh. I do believe the more I've explored my. emotion and and walls. I started doing. psychoanalysis. a couple years ago. and it's been very helpful letting me. find the thought underneath the thought. and and actively get in in touch with. intention, right? And acting is.

believing and it's easier to get in. touch with intention when I've explored. them, you know, and and and I have more. access to. uh different intention now. Um uh and so. I am excited to act more. uh now. I I I feel like my whole career. is. you know, just been me learning and. building up until. and even it will continue to be that but. recently I feel like I've had more. access to the truth and and I've made.

like a conscious decision to do that. going forward or at least to try. Um so so I think that would make. whatever I'm doing better. But yeah, that's like the common thread. Yeah, I felt that cuz even the idea in. the movie of like two men making a. suicide pact. Right? Like that concept. only works if you play it truthfully. People were afraid of that movie. Uh On the Count of Three was very hard. to get financed. Nobody wanted to do it. You know, very luckily. found two What was the reason people.

don't like movies about. Well, well one because with comedy it's. with the assumption that it isn't. truthful and that it will be. uh made fun of and just dismissed and. made light of, right? And I. like my show and like I've always. believed that you can find like a lot of. humor while taking things seriously. You. know, like and to me that's the the best. humor. Like my favorite movies my uh my.

even the movies I think are the. funniest, you know, like if you know, watching a uh uh Coen brothers movie or. Safdie brothers movie or even directors. who don't have a brother. Uh. Uh it they're funny because it's so real. they're it's hyperreal. That's my taste. and my sense of humor. To me Count of. Three is like because of the stakes of. it being your last day on Earth, it's. actually aspirational in a way, you. know, that allows itself to be very very. very very funny because it's like.

you know, it's sincere. They really. think this is the end. These two These. two characters Kevin and Val really. believe that. And we take seriously the. reasons they're there and it just makes. a uh uh a product that keeps my. attention. I think I think people have. respected it and respect the film uh. more because it takes depression. seriously. It It takes treatment of it. seriously and it takes seeing suicide as. a resolution seriously and we weren't.

afraid to to treat the audience like the. you know, if you've experienced this, if. you've had these thoughts that like. one, you know, I do believe that it it. can be triggering, so it is important to. know yourself. when going into it. But I do think. people who have and I've. now been able to talk to people and and. read things that people have written. about uh going through depression, having suicidal ideations, and even. attempts, and connecting with the film.

in a way that they didn't expect because. it was truthful. You know, and that was important in. laughing at it because it was truthful. Um and so. you know, that's always the gamble I'm. willing to take that like like. being truthful, treating my audience as. as adults will pay off. Yeah, yeah, it. was hard. It was really hard. No one. like it it cost me a lot of my own. money. I like went broke making the. movie. You know what I mean? Like like.

it was um. it was really really hard, but really. worth it. Really worth even just as a an. artistic statement of of fearlessness to. explore, it was worth it. I mean, you know, just. I'd seen your work, and I think when you. sit down with someone, and this is why I. do the podcast, it's like to really hear. about why they do it. And then you get a deeper appreciation. of what someone does when you know why. they do it, and how they think about it, and how far they go off the edge to do.

it, and. I I just find you really inspiring on in. a in a in a different way than than. I'd usually imagine with with comedy. because it's not just entertainment, it's not just. galvanizing a crowd, it's not holding. attention, it's it's like the ability to. encourage us all to move in the. direction of our fears. Yeah, yeah. And you're doing that whether you're. saying that or. or not, that's what I feel encouraged to.

do through your work. Oh, I I really. appreciate you saying that. My my friend. Bo always says that like it's more the. the access to fearlessness, right? And. like I I'm trying to make things that. report on these moments where I gain. access to. Like like it's yeah, it's almost like. journalism. It's really powerful. Yeah, it's really powerful. It's It's super. powerful. I mean, I I feel moved by it. personally because it helps me think. about. how if that's your intention.

behind the work you're doing, that's the same as any other in If. someone has the intention of improving. people's lives, that's exactly what. that's doing simply by that shift. because. yeah, we're Whatever we're scared of is. holding us back in so many ways and and. you know, that's a basic thing we all. know, but. it's very rarely explored in content as. the sole intention. Yeah. Like it's You. know You know what I mean? Like. people are thinking, "How do we make. this make money?" or "How do we make. this make people laugh?" or "How do we.

make the" And those are all like. beginnings and ends. They're not deeper. than intention. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's. the it's the thing that most has my. attention. attention, yeah. Right. Like it like it's like. I There's a monster under the bed. Okay. Well, I could sit here. I could. eat popcorn and I could watch TV. I. could think about anything else. Everything in my life is about this. monster. Like until I look and I want to make art. about looking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love.

that. I love that. Jared, it's been so. awesome talking to you. This is great. Thank you for taking the time. This is I. mean, I'm I'm genuinely like this has. been one of the most fun conversations. I've had in a long time and it's because. The reason why I do this for myself is I. love sitting down with people where I. don't know where things are going. Like. I don't know where the conversation's. going to go. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. And. that's what I enjoy so much because I. was like, I just want to get to know. this fascinating human. I like I like. talking to you and yeah, no, it it feels.

free associative and therapeutic. You. know. like that's true, so I really appreciate. you and you have beautiful eyes. That's what it That's what does it. too powerful. I had to look away a. couple times. I love it. Well, I love. the sound of your voice. I can listen to. your voice all day. So So we've got. equal appreciation. I was like, "Wow, his voice is just so nice to listen to.". collab on an ASMR channel. I'm in. I'm in. Except my eyes don't. help that much. know. People gaze and I'll read. I'm in. You let me know. Uh but Jared,

we end every episode with a final five. This is a fast five, so the questions. have to be answered in one word or one. sentence maximum. Wow. All right. So, one word to one. sentence. All right, the first question. is what is the best advice you've ever. received? Don't take advice. Good. Great. Yeah. Uh what is the worst. advice you've ever received? Listen to. him. I love it. Uh question number three. I. think we already answered this through. the podcast, but I always like to. How would you describe your current.

purpose with what you're doing? Finding. truth. Love that. Uh question number. four is what is something that you used. to value that you don't value anymore? Privacy. Mhm. Why did I'm going to go off piece. first. cuz that's that's a really interesting. answer. Yeah. Uh. you didn't used to value privacy before. What made you start to value it late? Um. I I realized that a lot of the things. that I. wanted to be private were. because I was ashamed of them. So, I.

realized that a lot of like people will. share anything and quickly I'll tell. them. Yeah, please. I want to know. Sorry. about like my father that kind of. represents this thought. Like my my. father uh. called me and asked me one day like if I. was doing stand-up again and he was. like, "So, you you you going to make. another special?" And I was like, "Yeah, why?" He was like he was like, "You. going to talk about me in it?" I was. like, "Why? Why? Why?" And he said, "Because you're mean and it hurts my. feelings." And I was like, "Why? Like. what How am I mean?" And he was like, "You know, you put our business out. there. Like you talk about family.

business. I talk about like his. you know, the kids that he's had that. were a secret for many years and my. sexuality and and like" And I'm like, "When you had all these kids like you. put you made it public. Like you had. children. Like you made it public. You. call it that. You call it putting our. business out there because you're. ashamed of it. My father, this is a man. who will talk to any stranger who will. listen in an IHOP lobby about like his. open heart surgery. and like any private personal like talk.

about his medical history. Would anybody. will tell everyone his son has a. television show and his home address. And like but this is private. It's like. no, this is shameful. Like this is. something you haven't contended with. Like like just thinking about what. privacy means, right? What I find fascinating about that is. how does your have I'm going totally. this is not our fast five now. We'll get. to the fifth one last, but. how do you find that as someone who's. had to go through their shame, go. through that, uncover it,

how do you extend that same process to. your father and mother and other people. you meet? Because now you know how hard. it is to do that. And when you see their. resistance and reluctance to do it, how. does that change how you feel about them. with their shame? It's hard to be. around. It's hard to be around. And and. I realize that in some ways extreme and. in some ways it's a luxury. to be able to like not talk to certain.

people in my life cuz there are kids who. feel that way around their parents and. and. I wouldn't suggest that they run away. from home. You know what I mean? Like. like but like. so there are people who have jobs and. reasons that it is. they can't be fully truthful. And and I. and I do respect that. But I it's hard. for me. again the monster under the bed, if. there's one thing that is hard to talk. about, then it's hard for me to talk. about anything.

And and so right now as my family, my. mother, my father come to the with me. being gay. It's difficult to talk to them because. we can talk about everything else. You. know, they they watch my special and. like to me like the most like the part. that aches is the part of like me. talking about coming out and my. struggles to. Yeah. be with them. Uh and that was the part on the first. phone call and even still like they. didn't even acknowledge. They they went.

like, "Oh, no. I know you went through a lot carrying. your father's secrets and and that type. of thing." But they didn't talk about. that because they don't want to. And and. we can and I could have a very pleasant. relationship with them. Um and that would just feel excruciating. to me right now. Right now and maybe. I'll I don't know if I'll become numb or. become callous and I. always pray that I don't become bitter. Yeah. You know, um but it's hard. It's.

hard to extend cuz you can't extend you. can't make everyone truthful or say the. things that you want them to say. Of. course. But you I I am you know, trying to. control. uh the relationships I have based on my. ability. to be truthful with you. And I love that. you're giving yourself the permission to. do that because I think that is the step. process towards. whatever evolution it goes on. It's like. when we don't give ourselves permission. to be in the uncomfortable of like,

"Well, I can't talk about this or I can't talk. about anything else." We're like, "No, no, I don't want to be that cuz that. makes me a bad person, right?" A lot of. we have shame around that. Yeah. No, permission is a good it's a. great word. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, you just live in. the cycle. It's easy. It's easy. to stay in that jail. Yeah, and you feel. a bitterness internally. Yes. Cuz you. never freed yourself. So. Yes. Yes. Yes, you stayed. Yeah. All. right, fifth and final question of the. whole interview is if you could create. one law that everyone in the world had.

to follow, what would it be? I do. believe that do unto others stands. Uh you know, I think that's probably the. it's the golden rule and and and. whatever, but like uh if that were. somehow law, do unto others Yeah. as you. would have done unto you. Like from. seeing the. the divinity in people to being truthful. with people, like the things that you. want, you know, I think you would give. More at least I you know. Gerard.

Carmichael, everyone. I hope this is the. first of many times we get to hang out. Yeah, we should talk more. I feel like I. feel like there's still like pockets. that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And this is. the first of many. This is the first of. many. Yeah, this is so really good. and it's always nice getting to lay the. land of someone's foundational thinking. and then get to learn more. But thank. you so much for doing this. Any last. messages? Anything you want to share? No, no, no. This has been great. Everyone who's been listening watching. back at home or whether you're in the. car or whether you're at work, wherever. you are, uh make sure you share what you.

learned, what you took away, any. insights that resonated with you. I. think for me I'm being called to think. about how I can be pulled to release any. shame I have, how I can have more open. conversations with my friends about any. guilt that I'm holding onto, how I can. use art to move towards my fears as. opposed to away from them. I think a lot. of us think of art as an escape from our. fears when actually they can be an. exploration as Gerard said today. So, uh. I thank Gerard for joining us today.

Thank you all. I hope you share this. episode with someone who needs it. Uh. but thank you for listening, everyone. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. If you loved this episode, you're going to love my conversation. with Matthew Hussey on how to get over. your ex and find true love in your. relationships. People should be. compassionate to themselves, but extend. that compassion to your future self. because truly extending your compassion. to your future self is doing something. that gives him or her a shot at a happy.

and a peaceful life.