JELLY ROLL's Brutal Journey of Self-Forgiveness "I hate the man I used to be...”

I'm honest enough to be on your podcast. today to tell you that I still get stuck. here sometimes. I probably never said it. this honestly, but this is the podcast. to be that real about is that I have. just He's a crossover artist in more. ways than one. Multi-genre, multi-platinum. Give it up FOR JELLY. ROLL! YOU went to jail for an armed. robbery at 15. Have you ever thought. about what you'd say to that person if. you met them again? Ooh, it's the best. question I've ever been asked. I've. avoided this question. Do you truly believe that you were. horrible person? I can't imagine you. having a horrible heart.

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Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one the only. Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the place you come to become. happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone that I have. been dying to have on the show ever. since the moment I saw him perform live. and I got to give him a big hug the day. after. This guest's story is truly. unbelievable, truly inspiring, truly. spectacular. I'm speaking about the.

award-winning, Grammy-nominated, Nashville native singer-songwriter, Jelly Roll, who debuted top three on the. Billboard 200 all genre chart and number. two on the top country album charts with. his debut country album. And it earned. him the biggest country debut album in. Billboard consumption chart history. Jelly Roll was nominated for Best New. Artist and Best Duo/Group Performance. for Save Me with Lainey Wilson at the.

2024 Grammy Awards. A four-time winner. at the 2023 People's Choice Country. Awards and the most nominated male at. the 2023 CMA Awards with five total. nominations, capturing his first CMA. Award for New Artist of the Year. For. the 2024 CMA Awards, Jelly Roll was just. nominated this morning for Entertainer. of the Year, Album of the Year, and Male. Vocalist of the Year. Jelly Roll is set. to release his new album, Beautifully.

Broken, on October 11th and launch his. Beautifully Broken Tour on August 27th. Welcome to On Purpose, Jelly Roll. Yes. As you kept reading off, I was getting. nervous. I was like, that's wild this is. all associated with me. Oh man, it's. it's beautiful to see. And you know, you. just said to me outside, you said, "Did you ever dream of this?". And I said to you, "No, I didn't dream of it." And you were. saying it was the same back. And I just. want to take folks back to how we.

connected because I went to Clive. Davis's pre-Grammy party. That was the first time I've ever seen. you perform. And I was just like, who is this guy? Like, that's a hard party to perform at, I feel. The short segments, it's moving. fast, there's so much going on. And you came on stage and you had. everyone in raptures. I remember like. MGK was bopping along. They stood on his. chair or. on his table. Like everyone was rocking. out to you and I was thinking you had. everyone in there fully present, fully.

locked in. It was beautiful. So I posted. it. I took a video, posted it. I thought nothing of it. I was just like. this guy's amazing. Going to have to. follow his work, listen to more of his. music. And then you DM'd me back. And I was. just taken away cuz you said you were. aware of my work and you'd read Think. Like a Monk at a really low time in your. life. And I was like I was genuinely. humbled. I was like no way. I was like I. didn't have a clue that you knew who I. was. And I was just so grateful. And I. wanted to ask you there like how did you. even get Think Like a Monk? How did you.

find On Purpose? Like what was the low. time in your life that it found you at? It's funny, man. So in 2019, my um. father passed away in March of 2019. He. got sick in January of 2019. And I had spent the last 3 months of his. life with him. And uh every day because. it was kind of one of those really kind. of slow 90-day declines. And I was coming out of that really, really struggling. And about a year. later I had gained like 60 or 70 lb. back, right? Cuz I had lost a lot of.

weight at the time. And I just felt it weighing on me. And. we were going into COVID at that point, too. And I had discovered you on uh. YouTube. And I think this I don't. remember when did you launch On Purpose? Cuz I think this was before the Yeah, this Yeah, so I just discovered the pod. And I was watching just like the initial. stuff like I got into the super earlier. stuff where you were just like. direct-to-camera stuff before the pod. And then I was like I should read this. book. So my wife knows I Side note, I've. always been obsessed with monks and like. that whole I live a very chaotic life.

and I maybe romanticized this idea of. disappearing to the mountains for a year. and refiguring my life out. I'm like. every other kid that watched Dumb and. Dumber. You know what I'm saying? It's. like, you know, like maybe this will. work. So when I read it and it was a. really big transition for me. My father. had just died. Um I thought my purpose. had been taken away from me. because to that point. music to me was a. a donkey to get to people. Right? And that was taken away. You I couldn't.

get to people the way I used to get to. people. I was I was used to doing 200. bar shows a year. So, I'm trying to grieve my father and. I'm going through this in this we're all. going through this national pandemic. together and of course the the the fear. of it initially was really strong as. well. And that was kind of that season. of life that I got introduced to Mr. Jay. Shetty, man. It was really really cool. Cuz I've always believed that what we. put in our body comes out and that's a. lot deeper than just what we eat or. drink. I think it's what we consume. You know,

if I'm watching a bunch of murder. mysteries, I'll feel a certain kind of. anxiety if I watch them for a month. straight, you know? If I'm listening to. if I'm listening to On Purpose or Dr. Dispenza, or these people that I look up. to. Huberman, you know, these guys that I. think are just great. You know what I. mean? That I'm I'm always putting out. better stuff. So, yeah, that you have no. clue how much your art helped me. And in exchange, I think my art's been. able to help people. It's funny how. iron sharpens iron without us even. knowing each other. You know what I. mean? That I was being inspired by what.

you were saying and what you were doing. No, what you're doing is so inspiring. I. mean, whenever I'm hearing you, any. music you put out, I'm like, I can pray. to this. I can meditate to this. You. know, I can dance to this. I get it's. it's it's real heart music and soul. music. And for me hearing that from you. and the big hug you gave me at the. Grammys, I was feeling so much love. And. so, thank you because knowing that. someone who is having such an incredible. impact that I'd somehow been connected. to your life was was really profound.

But you spoke about your father then, losing your father. What was your. relationship like with him up until that. point? And what was what walk us through. that moment of losing him and what that. felt like? He was. He was like really we were really really. close um. when I was a really troubled juvenile. Um my father was an alcoholic. My mother. had her own struggles. And we wasn't as. close whenever I was a kid cuz I was. just so rebellious in spirit. But as I. got in my 20s and finally got out of.

that revolving cycle of. uh the judicial system. me and him started really getting close. and I started leaning on him and we. would go to happy hour three or four. days a week every day and we'd go sit at. the same spot at the same bar on in the. Mumberson Street in Nashville. called the Tin Roof from 4:00 to 6:00. And he was such an impactful man. Later. in his life he um. he really started becoming. enriched in his community and his. church. Uh helped with the Room in the. Inn program for the homeless every. Thursday. I mean he just was a But he. also kind of taught me that duality of.

man cuz he'd still throw one back and. party. He wasn't like a square, you. know, but he was like it was cool. So he. kind of encouraged me and we were really. close and he was one of those uh. situations Jay that I I didn't see it. coming. And he didn't either. We all thought he. was good. I knew he was getting older. He was probably about 76 but he was. still sharp as a tack. And uh it kind of out of nowhere he got. um really he thought he just got sick. and it turned out that he'd had leukemia. for a few years and just never even. really checked on it. But he was one of. them old tough dudes that never went to. the doctor, didn't believe in, you know,

He was one of those guys that Grandpa's. cough syrup and a good sweat'll get any. cold out of, you know, drink a little. bourbon and go to sleep in a hot sleep. in a hot room with two blankets. You'll. get like old like penitentiary dudes. that'll just try to sweat colds out. It's like just sweat it out. So those. last 90 days were really cool for me Jay. because I got to really. spend the time with him. Like when he. got sick that day I showed up to his. house, I put him in my car, drove him to. the hospital closest to my house. And I got to drive up there every. morning and hung out with him all day. as, you know, all the way until the end. and. it was really cool cuz he taught me how.

to live and he also taught me how to. die. And uh because man, he did it like a. gangster. He did it just the way I. thought my father would do it. You know, not a tear in his eye, not a not not a. worry in his face, just just a man of. faith that was just kind of ready to go, you know? But it was But it But it hurt, you know, it hurt hard. Was there a. lesson or something he said at that. time, or was it just the way he was? Just the way he dealt with it. Um. He uh. He was I think not even what he said One. thing he said I'll never forget that was. funny, but it stuck with me. Was the.

nurse came in to give him his pain pills. or whatever medicine it was, and he. chewed it. He just old tough just. swallowed it. I said, "That don't bother you?". And he was just just as quick as he. could say it, he said, "Sometime when a. pill's too hard to swallow, you just got. to chew it.". Right? Dude, that stuck with me, dog. It's like. right? It's like And I thought about. that cuz I was like, "That's so much. bigger than just this particular. moment." You know what I mean? But he. was always full of those little. one-liner wisdoms. That's kind of how he.

was. He was the opposite of me. I'll. talk to everybody a lot. My dad was very. kind of reserved, and when he spoke, it. really counted. You know what I mean? Mm. And what about your mother? Because. I've heard that she also was dealing. with her own mental health challenges. when you were growing up. What was that. experience like of, you know, having a. father that was this way, and then what. was she like? And was she comp-. complementing who he was? And how did. she impact you? Uh they were polar. opposite. She was um she struggled with. drugs and just real mental health stuff.

She started becoming really reclusive. There was a 20-year period in my life. that I didn't see my mother outside of a. nightgown, but maybe twice ever. You. know, I just never seen her come out of. her room very much, more or less out of. our house. And I didn't understand anything about. drugs at the time or mental health, but. she really really struggled with that. But I connected music with her mental. health, right? Because the few times. when she was out of that bedroom and at. that kitchen table, she was thriving. I. mean, it was like And she would hold.

court. And she was so special in how she dealt. with people. And she still She's still. like this that. she would come downstairs and sit at. that table. And it was almost like. a light shot out of the top of the. house. The whole family would come into. the table. No, we wouldn't talk about. it. We just like you would just see them. start to Neighbors would start to come. over. Her girlfriends would start to. pull up. She'd start playing music, smoking cigarettes, telling stories, talking holding court at the. kitchen table. And it'd be like a group. of us. She'd have her four girlfriends.

sitting around the table. We'd all be. standing around them. Some would I mean. like it was like a crowd trying to just. what it just take anything she'd give. us, you know? But that's where my love for music came. in cuz imagine you're 10 years old and. you don't see your mother in a healthy. space very much. But when she seems her. healthiest, there's always music. playing. There's always this record. player. There's always and. I always tell the story, Jay, that it. was a You're old enough to remember this. era that You didn't have Google. We. didn't have a bunch of thesauruses. You. just had to believe people. So they. would just tell these wild stories about.

I don't know if any of these stories I. heard about all these songs are true. But she would always set up a song first. for the big story and then play it. So. we were like all on the edge of our. seat. And she'd hype up a song that we'd. never heard and then play it. And we. were all like listening like we were. watching a movie. Like the first time she played Coward of. the County or The Gambler. Like we're. like. ears locked. You know what I mean? Or. that "Oh where Oh where can my baby be?". You know, we're just all like She's. like, "Listen. Listen. Listen." She'd. wait for the good part. We'd all get. goosebumps. We'd cheer at the end of a.

song. And it really really kind of brought. that Being young to me, I was like, "Oh, this solves problems. This brings people. together. This makes sick people better. Like there's something happening with. this vibration that's different." And I. probably 10, Jay. And right then I was. like, "I want to write songs." Wow. down like a week later with a poem. You. know what I mean? I didn't know how to. write a song. So like I wrote a poem. You know what I mean? Did you sing and. perform it for her? Oh yeah, every time. Oh dude, it got to the point where like. And if she was downstairs with her. girlfriend, she'd call me up there to.

read whatever the most one I wrote was. She was very Looking back now, you don't. realize how much that feeds. the positive side of you reinforcing a. little dream in you as a kid, but she I. don't even know if she did it, but she. hammered it home cuz she made me feel. like the belle of the ball. I mean, she'd be like Jason, come down here, little jelly. Come down here, little. jelly. And I'd come down, she'd go, "Show Pat that thing you wrote last. week." And I'd run back up, get my. little sheet of paper, and I'd come down. like, "Check this out, Pat." And Pat. would act like it was the coolest thing. ever. You know, it sucked, of course. I. was 10, it was horrible. You know what I.

mean? But they they were super. super um complimentary and that was. something that really encouraged me. Do. you still have any of those original. poems? No, dude. We We are such a white trash. family. We lost all our pictures, all. our poems. We lost everything, man. Yeah, that would I can imagine just no. matter how bad you think it was, it'd be. fun to look back and. Oh, for sure. see what you were writing. about. Yeah, just to see that uh. I'd love to see some of them home. videos. I was watching um. the the I forget her name. I think her. name's Sadie. She's with the um Duck.

Dynasty family, but she's a pastor now. And they were showing a video of her. standing on her kitchen table when she. was two going three going, "Jesus. forgives everybody. He'll love you." And. then fast forward and she's 28 now and. she like runs a mega church. And it was. like, "Oh, that's funny. I wonder if. there's any videos of me being a little. asshole." Yeah. You know what I'm. saying? Running around rapping to. people. Oh, that's beautiful, man. Little big kids become are one of two. ways. They're either very shy and very. timid or they're very funny and can be. very aggressive. When you're a kid,

you're just looking for any kind of. acceptance, any you know, any any sense. of belonging, any sense of warmth. And the streets will always give it to. you. I looked at money as the way out of. this particular situation and I was. willing to do whatever it took to get. that. How does he go from that to then being. incarcerated at 13? Like I feel like, you know, that's 10 years old you're. saying. Seems like there's the ability to find. joy. You're looking back and smiling, but then. 13, that incarceration journey begins.

It deep-rooted insecurities early. I was. always a bigger kid. Um always struggled. with an eating disorder. I just. I think I ate my emotions whenever I was. younger and feelings and what was. happening in my environment in the. household and outside. So, I had a little chip on my shoulder. naturally. As a young kid, I I was a. I've always said this and it's it's. messed up, but it's true. Excuse my. language is. big kids become are one of two ways. They're either very shy and very timid,

or they're very funny and can be very. aggressive. Mhm. And I was the funny aggressive big. guy. You know what I mean? And I carried. that in my neighborhood was a. You know, I mean it was happening. It. was very active area. You know what I. mean? It was a very very normal middle. lower class neighborhood in the '90s. So, there was just so much crap. happening. It was so easy to get. involved. But when you're a kid, you're. just looking for any kind of acceptance, any you know, any any sense of. belonging, any sense of want. And the streets will always give it to. you. You know what I mean? They'll.

they're they're they're praying on it. They're they're they're they're praying. on it and praying for it that it. happens. And. I just immediately got washed into it. It just. And I also was one of the people in my. family that had a. I have probably never said this this way. and I hope I don't get in trouble. I didn't have a good relationship with. how I looked at money. You know? I looked at money as the way out of this. particular situation, and I was willing. to do whatever it took to get that. And I had no morals about it. I had no.

moral compass at all. You know, I I mean. I. I look back at those years, Jay, and I'm. so embarrassed to talk about them. I was. such a. I was I was still a bad person in my. early 30s, but I mean I was a really. horrible kid all the way into my. mid-20s. I was. People always like, "You're the nicest. dude I've ever met." I'm like, "I'm so. glad y'all haven't met nobody that knew. me 20 years ago." You know what I mean? But, um. yeah, so I just immediately started. getting in And the first time I. caught a real case, I'd gotten Well, we. got caught with weed and stuff and all.

that little little 2 days in juvenile. stuff, but I'd gotten a fight with a. kid. And back then they had the chain. wallets. And. when we were wrestling, I grabbed a. chain wallet to try to hit him with it. And that was a strong-arm robbery case. So, I ended up in the system for like. 20-something months when I was like 13. for that strong-arm robbery. Mhm. Do you truly believe that. you were a horrible person? I can't. imagine you having a horrible heart. Yeah. I don't I kind of lean towards I don't.

know if I had a bad heart as much as I. lean towards kind of the Damascus thing, where I think I was just a really less. than admirable person. Mhm. I just I was. desperate and delusional. Mhm. I was a I. say it, I was a desperate delusional. dreamer. And the desperate part got me. in a lot of trouble. Mhm. I encourage. delusional dreamers. Be a delusional. dreamer. Just don't be a desperate. delusional dreamer, you know? But, I definitely was consciously making. really horrible decisions. I just had. such an anger. I was just so mad at life. Everything. that wasn't right was everybody's fault.

but mine. I had such a victim mentality. I took zero accountability for anything. in my life. I was the kid that if you. asked what what happened, I immediately started with everything. but me. You know what I mean? And. it took years for me to break that. Like. years of work, solid work to just like. break that. It also has taken years of work for me. to even forgive that kid. Years of real. intensive work to just be like, "You. know what?" Cuz.

when you're 16 and you do something very. manipulative and you look back at it. today, you're like, "Man, that was super. manipulative.". Like, man, what was I thinking back. then? That's just I knew what I was. doing. I knew I was being being. manipulative. Man, I was also 16. or was a kid. And I. know that cuz I now have a 16-year-old, and Jaymes, she's the smartest kid in. school. And of course, everybody thinks. they got the coolest, smartest kid. I'm. no exception, you know? But she's the. smartest, she's so much smarter than me. She's so much better than me. Um she's going to be everything I wasn't. in life. It's going to be so fun to.

watch. But she'll still do that'll. make me go, "Oh, she's 16." You know. what I'm saying? Like all the time. Like. I have moments where I look like, "Dude, I think you could build a rocket." And. then I have moments when I'm like, "I. think you put your shoes on wrong. today." You know what I mean? She's 16, you know? So, I've been able to to do. the work and forgive myself for being. that for being what I was, but I. definitely did a lot of work to change. my whole outlook on people and love. That's why I'm such a hugger. Man, I was. not a touchy guy, dude. I was a. fist-bump, stay away from me, flat-faced, you know? I was a kind of a.

jail guy. And now I'm like, I just just. I. I joke all the time, Jay, I didn't cry. until I was 33. Now I can't quit. I. mean, it's like for for I thought I'd. caught up by now, but I mean, I still. just just for no reason, I'll just sob. I love that. What What does it take? What's blocking us from forgiving. ourselves? Mhm. Oh. I think accepting our responsibility in. what we did is really hard. For me, that.

was the hardest part of forgiving myself. was just really. when I quit running out of it was this. person's fault, it was that person's. fault. It took a long time for me to. as my father would say, chew that pill. of realizing it maybe it was me. You. know, it's the the classic quote of on. relationship number 27, you look up and. go, "Now, there's no way I picked 27. crazy women." You know what I'm saying? Like at some point, maybe I am the. problem. And that's the first thing I. did to forgive myself was just almost. like the basic principles of AA. I just.

had to admit, like, you know what? This. is This is me. This is all a reflection. of the way I've carried myself and yeah, things happened to me in life that. created this and yeah, there was a lot. of I don't look at people and go what's. wrong with them no more. I look at. people and go what happened to them. But I've that is no excuse not to. not to move on and I was tired of. forgiving everybody but me and I. couldn't figure out what the problem. was. I was like I forgave everybody. I. don't have a bitter heart about nothing. Like you haven't forgave you. And man, I just.

it hit me like a ton of bricks. You went to. You went to jail for an armed robbery at. 15. Have you ever thought about. or have maybe you have even met them, but have you ever thought about what. you'd say to that person if you met them. again? Ooh, it's the best question I've. ever been asked. I've avoided this. question hoping because I don't know how. to answer it, Jay. I really want to have. a conversation with them. I've thought. about reaching out. This is. been 24 years ago now. And I just don't know how that would.

even start, you know, how I would go. about it. Cuz sometimes I wonder if they might. have even seen me in passing or are. aware of my success and I wonder if. they've even correlated. I mean I've obviously dramatically. changed, you know, I was 15, dude. You. know what I mean? I I couldn't grow. facial hair at all. You know, what? I. didn't I hardly hit puberty. I still had. my hey voice when I did that robbery. So, I've thought about that a ton and. they're definitely on my list, my amends. list. I just haven't made it that far. down yet. What what do you think you.

would say? I would just ask them to I would I would. ask them to just one forgive me because. there's no excuse. And that the first accountability is no. matter how old I was, I had no business. taking from anybody. Just the this entitlement that I had, this the world owed me enough that I. could come take your stuff. Just what a. horrible horrible way to look at life. and people. Just what a horrible way to. interact with the earth, you know, and I. would apologize for that first. Just. flat. just one accountability is what I'm so.

big on now, Jay. I just look my daughter. and I go, man, I messed up. And then I would hope they would give me. a little grace as I explained to them. that I was 15 and and I was just trying. to be I don't know what I was even. trying to be when I look back now. I. don't know what my thought I don't have. This is how I know I was 15 cuz the more. when I try to make logic of it, I can't. There was no logic to what I did. It. made absolutely no sense. And I learned. so much from it and the way that I. interact with people. And I hope that they would see that I've. made it my life's mission to change and.

to change people. Because. that's what I'm representing the most in. what I do with my This This whole thing. for me is I think people cheer for me, Jay, cuz they see a little bit of me in. them. Or they see their cousin or their. I'm a family member. They relate. And I. speak for an unspoken group of people. You know, and I hope they would know. that. you know, uh money doesn't create character, it. reveals it, right? Yeah. If I was an. what a great time to start. You know. what I mean? What a great time to show. the world. You know, I think that I'm.

trying to diligently prove myself that. I'm. I've not only changed that I took the. platform serious and that it's making me. change more every day. You know, the. responsibility that God's given me and I. would hope they would forgive me. That's. beautiful, man. Even sitting with you. for a few moments and. the the few interactions we have had, it's so evident to me that you've done. so much work. Like it's so clear. Yeah. It's so clear and I think you remind. everyone of the potential we do want to. see in humanity. Mhm. Like it's like.

that's what we want to see. Like when we. see someone struggling, we want to see. them Figure it out. have that transformation and I think. what you were saying that when people. see you, I think they're reminded that. oh, it's possible. Oh, it's real. It can. be genuine. Like it it's so genuine to. your core when you're talking about it. to me. Like I feel the vibration of just. you know, the growth and transformation. you chose. What I'm. fascinated by is. how did it affect you at the time.

to make a mistake in your early years? How long did that end up putting you in. jail for that time? Well, that's the time I got charged as. an adult. So, I still have that felony. on my record to this day for that crime. That was I did a few years. I mean, I. came home right I made bond right before. I was 17, so I did 2 and 1/2 years and. then I ended up having to go back and do. another few years for the actual case. when it settled out. Mhm. What does that experience do to a young. person? Walk us through that because I. feel like you're now looking back at it. when you're, you know, late 30s, but when you're looking back.

at it, it's a different perspective to. like when you're actually 15 in jail for. 2 and 1/2 years going back in and out. cases. What does that do to the mental. health of a teenager? Well, here's the perspective, Jay. Imagine us as adults now. You to me and. you go have a conversation. I go, "Hey, man, let's go spend 3 months in the. mountains together, not use our phones, just fellowship." I love it, man. look at it like, "Great idea, right?". You're like, "It's just 3 months. It'll. be fun. I'm in. I think this will be. great. We'll bring our wives. We'll.

We'll invite other people. Let's Let's. actually make a thing of this.". Now, cuz us cuz we know in our age that. 3 months is. With as hard as we're working, 3 months. might be need the break we need, you. know? When you're 15 years old, 3 months is your life. It's an entire semester of school. You're now going to be a second-year. freshman or you're going to have to make. up this whole classes next summer. because of 3 months, you know? So, imagine getting thrown into that.

vortex for 3 years. I missed high. school. I missed any kind of normal socializing, any kind of what would be growing up, what would be developing in those areas, and I was developing in a room, and I. did a crime that deserved this, by the. way, but I was developing in a room with. stone white walls, a conc uh um. a steel commode, and a steel bunk in a. 6-by-8 cell. 6-ft wide, 8-in by long. By. the time I was an adult, I had to sleep. with my legs curled. Couldn't stretch. all the way out, you know?

I'll never forget being 17 realizing I'd. grew enough that I couldn't fit in the. bunk no more, lengthwise. So, you go through these things as a. juvenile and. Do you ever see Blow? No. watch Oh, you got to watch the movie. Blow. No, I haven't. It's incredible. It's It's a crazy. movie. It's about a guy named George. Jung Young that was a huge Johnny Depp. played him. Huge Johnny Depp fan. Johnny Depp, yeah. But, uh he um. he was a big weed dealer and he finally. got us some federal time for moving, you. know, hundreds of thousands of pounds of. weed. And the joke he says in the movie.

is, "I went to prison with a bachelor's. degree in marijuana. I left with a PhD. in cocaine.". Wow. Cuz he came home and ended up being the. biggest cocaine dealer in American. history. So, that's the truth, though. That's how that affects us, Jay. When. we're in these situations, uh our. judicial system is set that when you put. the worst of the worst in a room. together and give them nothing to do but. talk, argue, and fight, you're only.

making smarter criminals. They're only. when there's no outlets, cuz there was. very few outlets for us. Even as a. juvenile. We didn't have no outlets. I. didn't get my diploma. I didn't get my. GED until I was 25 in adult jail. We didn't have real classes. We didn't. have a real rec yard, an exercise. program, a mentorship program at the. juvenile. We didn't have anything. I. mean, they treated us like lifers, you. know, orange jumpsuits and These were. heinous crimes we were committing. I. understand. that I am huge on discipline. Like, I'm.

one of the few people that even in my. justice reform doesn't anywhere do I. believe people shouldn't be. incarcerated. I think that we I've. learned some of the greatest things in. my life in that. It's changed my life. But, what changed my life the most in. those facilities was later when I. started getting resources in them. When. I started sending having an units where. I could get my GED and they had a. Christian program that I could go to. called Jericho talk about breaking the. walls down. And these were the things. that I started learning these. fundamentals and they had AA and NA and. I started being getting access to. different kind of books and literature.

and these things but all through my. juvenile years Jay, none of that. You're. just sitting in there, you know, there's. kids that went to juvenile at my age and. came home and couldn't never could read. and write. Wow. Yeah, I know I. appreciate that perspective and it comes. back to what you keep referring to is. this principle of accountability. And I think accountability gets. a bit of a hard rap right now. Like it's. a difficult reputation that. accountability has. You can be king for. a day and get a pats on the back in life. as you pass. but it's only heartache and tears if you.

fool the guy on the glass. Something I. learned through AA that I love so much. is going home and having these. like you assess your day, you write what. did you do what do they call it like a. moral inventory. It's the monster that I. battle the most with my obesity. Which to me is one of the things that. I'm working on but it's clearly where I. have the most work to do. Talk to me about the difference between. accountability and self-sabotage or. self-blame. Right? There's a difference. Huge. And I can tell you know it because from. the way you're using the word but I.

think people get scared of. accountability because they think well. if I think it's all my fault then maybe. I shouldn't be here or maybe I don't. matter or I'm not enough. How do you see. the difference? There was a poem called. The Guy in the Glass. Have you ever read. this poem? No. It's an incredible poem. I used to have. it memorized but I I I learned I read it. in jail and I hung it up on my jail. mirror. And until about 2 years ago it was on. the mirror in my bedroom every day. My whole as long as me and my wife have. been together it's something I live by.

The guy that pretty much says that uh. you can be king for a day and get a pats. on the back in life as you pass. but it's only heartache and tears if you. fool the guy on the glass. That was the moment where now if there's. a triggering thing that happens in my. life, I used to the old mentality was, who did this? First thing I do now is I go straight to. the mirror go, what could Jason have. done differently? What could I have really done. differently to avoid this situation? Cuz. once I learned that there's.

accountability this old head once told. me, if I'm running up a flight of steps. and I slip on a step and fall, whose. fault is it? Is it mine or the steps? I was. mine. He goes, what if there's a crack. in the steps? I go, it's the steps. He goes, you think? And I go, well for. sure, that's the variable, right? If. there's a crack in the steps, it's the. steps' fault. He said, the steps didn't. have a choice to be there. You had a. choice to run up them. Yeah. Man, those are the moments where you're. like, oh. So and then if I can assess that I did.

everything right, that's how I avoid. self-blame. Real self-assessment. Honest. self-assessment to go cuz a lot of times. we just don't honestly assess ourselves. Something I learned through AA that I. love so much is going home and having. these. like you assess your day, you write what. did you do what do they call like a. moral inventory, right? And having these. real moments and then you get freedom. because sometimes you find out it ain't. you. And then you're like, you know. what? I actually did pretty good by. this. Then you can start handling your. business. And then going down the line, all right, well where did this fall.

apart? You know what I mean? And then. you can start checking your boxes. But. I've learned that even in then it'll. always come back to you. Cuz even if. it's somebody you hired to do a job and. they failed to do the job, I still hired. that person to do the job. That was. still my my ongoing and that just. changed everything. I had to do it that. way though, Jay, cuz I was a chronic. I was the Spider-Man meme. You know what. I mean? All the time, dude. It was. everybody, you know what I'm saying? Ah, tell him, tell him, tell him. It was. never me. You know what I'm saying? And. turns out it was pretty much always me.

But I love that you can laugh at that. and say that, right? I think that's the. I think that's the beauty of it when you. start realizing that even when you got. it wrong, it wasn't this like deep, dark pain. It. was just like, we're young, we're. stupid, we think about things we we're. kind of we're kind of trained to believe. the problem's not us. Right? And when we. do make it us, we don't need to hold it. as like this heavy, dark weight. Yeah. It's like, oh wait, let me just.

relieve myself of this stupid idea I. have that it's not me. And maybe if it. is me, I love that poem. Guy Guy in the. glass, you said. call it the guy in the glass. I'm going. to check it out. Yeah. I got a question and pinging on that. How do you think that. How do you encourage people to get over. that? Cuz that's a real thing you're. saying is to be like, when you do assess. it's you, there is a heavy, heavy. feeling. For me, I just started finding freedom. in it to be like, like you said, it was. more I started looking at less like, damn, I'm up to more like, oh, I can let.

that go. I blew that. What did I I. started taking this mentality of. I don't lose, I learn. Mhm. You know. what I mean? Like like like yeah, like. we don't this team we don't we might. screw stuff up, but we don't just we. learned something. It was all valuable. Yeah. What do you think of what do you. think that process is? two things that come to mind. One of. them is. in the monk tradition, our higher self. is called the monk mind and our lower. self is called the monkey mind. Mhm. And so, whenever you're acting. in that way, it's compared to a monkey.

So, if you see a monkey and and. obviously you're not going to see a. monkey in most places, but at least in. India, when you see a monkey, monkeys. are crazy. They're silly. They're. jumping from branch to branch. They're. swinging around. They're making funny. sounds. They're playful. They'll show. you their teeth to scare you a little. bit. They'll steal your credit card and. trade it back for a banana. They're like. they're they're silly. And the reason. why monk the mind is compared to a. monkey is because it often acts like. that. It's silly. It's unreasonable. It's awkward. It does funny things. And.

so, when you look at the mind that way, you're like, "Oh, it's just a monkey. Like, it's okay. Like, it doesn't have. to be this serious, heavy thing." You. recognize that the mind's nature, the. mind's propensity is to be that way. And. then you go, "Wait a minute. I wouldn't. judge a monkey if it did that. So, let. me not judge myself. Let me free myself. of that guilt and shame." And I think. the bigger thing there is. guilt blocks growth. Mhm. Guilt doesn't make you want to grow. It.

might make you start to grow, but it. won't help you grow long-term if you. keep guilting yourself. Shame is not. going to help you shift. If you keep. shaming yourself, you're not suddenly. going to shift. It may shift you a tiny. degree, but it's not going to cause a. transformation. And so, guilt, shame, and judgment don't help you grow, shift, and transform. And I think so many of us. have to realize that it's just not a. useful. emotion sustainably. Right. It can be. useful in the interim to like get you.

off your backside and get you going, but. it's not a. where I see you today, it's not like. love and grace and compassion. Like, these things are sustainable. These. things are infinite. Whereas, shame, guilt, and judgment are finite. reasons for motivation. They They run. out. I don't know if that makes sense, but. Yeah, so that's how I see it. Yeah, that's how I see it. And And that's big. to touch on, especially with shame. Cuz. that shame spiral for me has been my.

biggest demon. Really? It's It's I mean, it's the monster in front of me all the. time. It's the monster that I battle the. most with my obesity, which to me is one of the things that. I'm working on, but it's clearly where I. have the most work to do. My nan would always say, "You can't quit. everything at once." Mhm. I was with my. dad one time. My nan was at a nursing. home. And she was She was so funny, man. And. uh we came in, and first thing my dad. tells her is, "Jason quit smoking. cigarettes. Old Old baby Jason quit. smoking cigarettes. She said, "Good.".

I said, "Grandma, I ain't going to lie, man. It was hard as hell.". And uh buddy goes my dad goes, "Hey, you. can tell he didn't quit cussing." She. looks up and goes, "Well, you can't quit. everything at once, can you?". I like that. But I like that. So my uh I'm finding that getting out of. that shame as I'm focusing on emotional. sobriety. So I'm really focusing on that. You know. what I mean? And um. it was just in the last few years I got. I did enough work to even learn what. emotions were. When I seen an emotion chart for the. first time cuz you ever heard you know.

people to ask you, "How do you feel?". And I just like it was always one of two. things. It was always just angry. You. know what I'm saying? For so many years. every emotion that came to me was anger. It but I didn't I didn't know that it. wasn't really anger. It was uh. uh sometimes I was disappointed. Sometimes I was sad, you know? Um. sometimes I was guilt I felt guilt. Sometimes I was in a shame spiral, but I. didn't know that. So to me it was like. they were like, "Well, well, well, you. know what? Tell me how you feel right. now." I'm like, it was just always. angry. You know? And then I I worked my. way.

through that too. Learning more about. the emotions and. trying to anchor down and being honest. about how I feel. Now where I still. struggle, Jay, is I still struggle when. I get stuck ruminating. Mhm. You know. what I mean? I still. I my time of clearing my head and. getting logical thoughts sometimes takes. still takes a little longer than I want. it to cuz I can accidentally get stuck. Miles you you seen Miles my buddy from. uh onsite. He always calls it I don't. know if he probably calls it rumination. lane or rumination row, but I'll just.

end up instead of making a decision you. know there's freedom or grace here and. you can ruminate here and I'm still the. guy that'll just pace here for three or. four days just making myself madder. about something until I finally let it. go. One of the things you're reminding me of. is this idea that like. one of the most addictive things in the. world is actually shame. Mhm. Shame is. such an addiction. We get addicted to it and it just. becomes our rhetoric, our habit, our. go-to place. It's a go-to comfort and it's a go-to.

pain and we know it's both, but we kind. of hold on to it like an addiction. And. we get caught in that spiral. I think. that's real. But it sounds like you're. taking a lot of steps in your health. journey. You were just saying to me you. drink like two gallons of water a day. like. Yeah. You know what's crazy though? I'm. just having a fan moment right now where. you just looked at me and said the kind. of I watch you say on this podcast. that inspires me, but it was to me. You. know what I'm saying? That was so cool. Like y'all just sitting here like a. little giddy kid. Like I see this all. the time. This is cool that I'm on the. other side of this now.

Oh, I do. Anytime. Thank you, brother. Man, please. for me, man. I think the weight for me right now is. it's the mountain in front of me and I'm. taking it I'm learning. You know, I'm. I'm being very diligent with it. And I'm taking it serious. I'm drinking. a bunch of water. I'm cold plunging. I'm. eating right. I'm doing good. I just uh. I just have to fight that little that. little pirate on my shoulder that's you. know, them late nights and just I'm I'm. a food addict, man. I've always I. probably never said it this honestly, but this is the podcast to be that real.

about is that I have just. had a bad relationship with food from. birth. I've never had a good. relationship with food. I've never had a. good example around me of it. You know. what I mean? And uh. I've always said that. I believe obesity is directly connected. to mental health. I know how easy it is for people to go. just quit eating so much. Just work out. It's so easy. You know what I'm saying? I just I don't I wish I looked at food. that way. But I understand it from the perspective. of an addict because I know what. addiction is. You know what I mean? And. how I struggle with food is the same way.

I struggle with codeine. It's the same. way I struggle with cocaine. Like. couldn't you know, um. even getting it away from me. It took. years to be able to be around people. doing cocaine and just not be. doing it. You know, just to know what's. happening in my environment and be okay. with that. So, I'm having to take that. same approach with food, to be honest. And I'm not ashamed to say. it that I'm having to make those. dramatics of decisions where I'm like I. just I don't need no nothing to eat in. my green room.

You know what I mean? I need to I need. to. change my entire relationship with how I. look at food. But a lot of that changed. with me. how I looked at myself. You know what I mean? A lot of that. started changing with me loving me. and really starting to love me cuz I. went through this thing forever where I. did all this work and started loving. people and hugging people and I still. laid down and hated me. You know, and I still deal that deal. with days of this. I still deal days. that's real. I'm honest enough to be on your podcast. today to tell you that I still get stuck.

here sometimes and it's scary, man. It's. really scary. I scare myself. Um but I've got a good support system. around me and I will say that all that. cliché stuff is real. When you're like, "Go walk out in the sun. Drink water.". You know, you hear it as a fat person. I'm like, "You, it's not that easy. This. is hard." Then I started walking around. in the sun and drinking water. I'm like, "Dude, I feel so much better." You know. what I mean? It's crazy. I I I feel like. it sounds like the that because you've. been through other addiction journeys, there's a part of you that.

is inspired and knows you can do it. Yes. Right? It feels like you've been. You've been able to break so many habits. and so many addictions at this point. that it feels like you have an inner. belief. that you can. Would you agree with that? it in my spirit. In my soul I believe. it. And I also believe it's because. God's purpose for me is so much bigger. than even what I'm doing now. And I I almost feel like I heard the. spirit my spirit tell me that you're. holding you back from what's really for.

you. You know, your physical is what's. holding you back for what we have for. you. And um. I want to shed that skin. I want to shed. it bad. But I also want to do it to. inspire kids the same way I've been. um, I never thought I would be able to talk. to you in real life. I never got into. this thinking I would be a mental health. advocate or that I would be, um, you know, this wasn't I just wrote songs. about how I felt and how people around. me felt and the brokenness that was in. my life. And man, it's helped so many people,

Jay. The messages you get, you know, I I. think we could connect on that, the. messages, cuz I've I've sent you. messages. of how I feel, of things that we. actually. are helping people. This is called on. purpose. Purpose is what changed my. life. Shia LaBeouf did an interview one time. where he said, "I quit trying to be. happy, I started being useful." I. started trying to be useful. And I've. lived by that quote ever since. It's. like once I started prioritizing my. purpose, it's funny how much life's just. awesome, you know what I mean? When I. was trying to make life awesome, it.

sucked. When I started, you know, when I. started just trying to be a man of. purpose and just try to walk in my. purpose and what I think God put me here. for, it just opened up everything for me. It's been such a dynamic shift. Yeah, you said, I want to read this from you. because it's from. your own post, but, uh, this was, uh, to your wife. You said, "Happy anniversary. This is my best. friend. Literally, people ask me what. was the turning point in my career and. the answer is simple. I married my best. friend, period. This woman changed my.

life. Four years ago on a drunken night. in Las Vegas, my wife and I made a. decision. That night, during a Deftones. show, I walked on stage during. Yelawolf's performance. Thank you for. this, brother. I'll always be grateful. for that moment. We rushed the. courthouse and got married at some. random chapel. I was a lost cause. I was. in the middle of custody battle. I was. broke, living out of a van, doing 200. shows a year for $200 a show. I was. addicted, bruised, used, and barely. breathing. She came in and changed.

everything. She made me whole. She gave. me purpose. It was truly the turning. point in my career and life. I mean, when I read that, I was like. you know, you can't read that not feel. moved by that. How was. how are the people we choose to spend. our life with? A, why are they so important? And B, how. did she help you find your purpose? Like. that word especially. First of all, it. felt like somebody actually believed in.

me. And I hadn't felt that in a while. My. father believed in my mother, you know, my but like outside of my little crew. she just prophesied it over me from I'll. never forget the first time we hung out, she whispered in my ear, she said. I don't know what it is, but you're. special. She's like you're special. And I felt. the same way about her. We just celebrated our 8th anniversary. last week. Congratulations. Thank you, man. I'm I'm talking to you about I've done. so many interviews, I've never talked. about this.

I was so insecure in my body for so many. years that I found validation through. women. And I thought that if I could pull. pretty women, that it would it then I. wasn't fat. You know what I mean? And it was just. something else, you know, and because of. that I had a really. really bad relationship with women. Multiple women all the time. Many. partners as I could get. Living double, triple, quadruple lives, relationships. with all these people. The first thing that happened was when I. got with Bonnie, it was something that. just happened where I was immediately, I.

didn't want to talk to nobody. I just. wanted to be with her. And somebody used to always tell me that. anybody who's ever built an empire, it. was. of modern era, it was always a one-woman. man. Mhm. You know what I mean? Because. when you focus on one woman and one. woman focuses on you and y'all focus on. building together. I've seen it with you. and your wife. It's amazing. what happens. So, it's crazy, Jay, just. what happened the day I just was like. this is all that matters is just.

me and you and building this thing. together. And she came straight in and. now keep in mind I'm fixing to get. custody of a kid that I don't even have. a place for them to live. I don't know. what I'm doing with my life. Bunny comes right in and goes, "Look, I. don't know if we're going to work or. not, but I'll help you get custody of. your daughter. Let's go get an apartment. for you. I'll go stand in court beside. you as a you know, as a person of this.". Like she she put together. this thing for me to get custody of we. call her our daughter now because she. raises her as her own and she calls. Bunny mama. We've had that little girl. for 8 years now. And she gave me purpose.

because I felt like our story. was one that could help so many people. Two broken people that have were able to. kind of heal and then come together not. as healed as we probably should have. been even, but then we were able to heal. together and grow together and learn. together and just knowing I have. somebody that really supports me, really. encourages me and holds me accountable, too. Bunny will you know, I'm sure your. wife's the same way. When them doors. close, man, Bunny will get in my ass. Bunny will tell me what's really going.

on. She will check me. If I start. ego-ing out a little bit or getting a. little something, Bunny will be the. first person to go, "Man, I don't know. what's up with you, man." You know what. I'm saying? She is a. She was the first woman and I know. people are going to say this ain't. right, but she was the first woman I had. a healthy amount of fear of. I've never been afraid of losing. something before, ever. Never. I was always lived by the motto. of heat. If you can get rid of you can't. get rid of it in 30 seconds, it don't. need to be in your life, you know? And. she was the first one where I was like, "I don't want to lose this. I don't want. to blow this. I'm willing to do the work.

for this. I'm willing to get in there.". Talking about doing work, um. This will be a cool podcast to share the. story. Me and my wife. I was learning about how trauma affects. us as our child in our child in our. children years and about. My wife was in a place where when she. was growing up, she had a very abusive. stepmother and a father that was. detached. And she was grounded to her room a lot. So her room became her safe place. When I was growing up, I had a mother. that never left her room. So for me, the. room is a dark place.

Mhm. Right? It reminds me of a story. about you and your wife, the dishes. Yes. Or the dishes story. You sit down, y'all. you you do them after y'all watch TV, she does them before TV. Yes. Yes, well remembered. Yeah, so it's like this is a similar. thing, but. you know, so imagine when she would. shell up and life would be hard on her, she would back into the bedroom. Yeah. What does that trigger for me, Jay? It's. my mother. Mhm. I got to go entertain my. mom. What's wrong? What Go to the room. Try I'm trying trying to hoist you out. But she's I think she needs to come out.

here to be better, but this is better. for her. And you could imagine this is. rubbing rocks together. We're starting. fires all the time. And then as soon as. we really did the work and I found out. that about her, man, we dude, we argue we have a typical. relationship argument once a year and. it's almost always over the kid. You. know what I'm saying? But it's like once I learned that, now. it's like when she goes to her room, I'll walk in. Hey baby, are you okay? Cool. Do you want to talk about. something? I don't want to talk. Cool, I love you.

I'm downstairs. Call me if you need me. cuz I know that's how she processes. Yeah. You know what I mean? I don't take. it personal no more, you know? But those. are the things and I learned so she's. taught me so many things like that. Her patience with me, Jay, man, I don't deserve that. I didn't earn. that patience. That's just grace. She. just gave that to me cuz she loves me. Very, very diligent she lets me be the. wild horse I still am. That's something. else. Every other woman still tried to. tame this old wild mustang. I got to. run, you know what I'm saying? I'm.

programmed to go, Jay. 2 or 300 days a. year I'm out of the house. It's just how. I operate, you know? And she's the. opposite. She's a homebody, prefers to. be home. But she cheers for me, man, so. yeah, that's my best friend, dude. I. love that, man. It reminds It definitely. reminds me of me and my wife in so many. ways as well. Like I talk about that. example in my in my second book, 8 Rules. of Love. I talked about how just like. there's love languages, there's fight. styles. And so my fight style is. venting. I want to talk about it. I want. to fix it. I want to get to a solution.

by talking about it. And my wife's fight. style is hiding. She wants to go into a. room. Like you know, she don't want to talk. about it. And in the beginning of our. marriage, I used to think she doesn't. care about it as much as I do. Cuz I. want to talk about it. That's cuz I. care. Right. But what I didn't realize. is her having that space, that was her. caring. Right. So that she could come back with a. solution. So that she could come back. with the energy and the capacity for. going to some resolution. Whereas to me. it was like, oh you don't care as much.

as I do. I'm standing right here ready. to fix this and solve this and you just. want to run away. What does it take to. have the humility. to have your partner help you heal? Mhm. Because I think it requires. humility on both parts to A allow. someone to heal you. and B heal someone else without judging. them and like you said giving grace and. space. Like how do you how do you strike. that balance especially as a man of. putting your ego aside and allowing. someone to come in with the medicine?

I had to quit looking at the word help. as um an ego death and start looking at. it as. uh. I had to start looking at it. as a empowerment almost. You know, to just be like, hey can can I. get some help? There's a book that I. read when I was in an onsite doing some. therapy work at I'll always butcher the. name and they should have changed the. name cuz of this by the way, but it's. like you probably read it's a children's. book but it's all drawn it's like the.

horse, the mule, the donkey and the fox, right? And the it's this version of Winnie the. Pooh. They could have done way but they. picked weird animals. That person should. call me. I'll help them with the next. book. But it they they had some really. good stuff in it. It's a great book. But it goes to the horse and it goes, what's the hardest thing you've ever had. to do?" And the horse goes, "Ask for. help.". I cried. I seen that illustration the. first time sitting in that cabin. Of course I was in a highly emotional. place. I was doing some intensive. therapy. But I just bawled cuz I was.

like, "Man, that's a core thing with me. and my wife. We got to look at the word. help is we're trying to make the word. help sexy now." Mhm. You know what I. mean? Like instead of like this uh help. cuz that's how we're growing up. Like. you don't ask for help. I'm trying to. look at it like, "Oh, that's sexy. She. asked me to help her with something.". You know You know what I mean? Like, "Hey yo, can can I run something by. you?" That's like, man, I get goosebumps. if she hits she hit if I hit her with. that or she hits me it's like oh, this. is this is the. we're growing. This is where we grow, baby. You know what I mean? We call it. the foxhole. That's the biggest thing is. that we started making it fun. Like.

let's get in the foxhole. Let's huddle. up. Let's talk about this. You know, like making real decisions. It's kind of. where we started thriving. So it went. from being afraid to ask for help to. like now it's like our thriving point. Like when we can really get in that. foxhole and start trying to sharpen each. other's skills, it's really cool. Yeah, that that putting your ego aside. is huge. I I wrote another chapter that. was called um. your partner is your guru. Mhm. And it was that idea that your partner's. your teacher, but your partner never. makes you feel like they're your teacher.

and you never feel like you're the. student. Right. Like there's learning, there's growth. without the other person kind of like. pointing a finger at you, making you. like pointing out your mistakes in a. negative way. Like my wife will call me. up and call me out like you're saying. But I know it's full of love. Full of love. Like I know it's to make me better. I. know it's because she actually cares. about me, not the perception of me. Mhm. And she doesn't want me to get carried. away. But you have to trust that because. as a man it's so easy to have your ego.

rise above that and go, "Who you to tell. me?" Or you know, "Where's that coming. from?" Or you don't even see it, you. don't know it. And so I love hearing how. much you've been able to. put that ego aside and truly allow it. in. I think that's really inspiring. Oh, yeah. Well, the first step for me was. just admitting I had an ego. You know. how hard that was? It was like, I used. to I was like, I thought I was the only. dude on Earth that didn't have an ego. I. was like, I'm telling you, I'm the most. egoless dude ever. And I had such an.

ego. You know, and I still have to have. to fight that guy a lot. I always joke. with my management, but it's true is. that I need an hour when I wake up. before I deal with people. I need to I. got to kill the bad half of me. Me and. that guy go to war as soon as I wake up. cuz he's there. He's waiting for me. He's by the nightstand. You know what I. mean? Be mad. Be mad. Because I used to. just wake up angry. Just woke up mad. And I fight that guy. for an hour every morning. We wrestle. You know, it's I feel like Jacob. I. break a hip every day wrestling with. God. You know what I'm saying? But it makes me and you'll notice it cuz.

I'm a lesser better version of me if I. don't get that hour. I come out and you can kind of still. sense it on me. It's um. But that's all about that ego death, man. Yeah. But I started I just replaced. ego with love and compassion and started. going, "What would love say?". Cuz it's so funny how fast you separate. what's love and what's not when you. really think about it. When you go. If you really just bring everything back. to like, "Did I say that really out of. love or was it a loving way I said it?". Most of the time I say, "Yeah, I blew. that one. You know what I mean? I I.

could have rephrased that for sure.". It's hearing about your purpose through. your wife as well. There's. I mean, I'm just going to read a few. things that are happening right now. because they're so beautiful. Save Me is. one of the most played songs at recovery. centers. I mean, that How does that. feel? Let me before I go on, how does. that feel? Unbelievable, man. It's. one of the coolest experiences of my. life has been able to. especially catch people in that first 30. days or those first 10 or 15 days. Anytime we get to go back to a detox. center and love on people and play songs.

for them. We go to prisons all the time. and play and we go to homeless shelters, but. you catch somebody on them first 10. days, man, cuz I know what them 10 days. are, you know? And to know that that's the song getting. people through that particular stretch, I couldn't, you know, it's like when they told me that um Save. Me is becoming the new Free Bird in the. South for funeral homes. Cuz you know, Free Bird, Lynyrd Skynyrd song, has been. like the famous funeral home in the. South, and they said they get more. requests for Save Me now.

And I used to really bum me out and make. me sad cuz I used to carry that, but. then I started thinking about how much. that's helping people grieve. because how many songs have really. helped me grieve. You know what I mean? Uh. uh Toby Keith's I'm going to miss that. smile. I'm going to miss you, my friend. I mean, it got me through the death of. my father. I listened to that song every. day. So, I know how music can do that. Even. though I'm leaving by Luke Combs, you. know? I I think it's beautiful to hear that, to feel that your music's there. And. then this one, too, when you performed for the Oregon prison. mates, the inmates, uh it's the first.

time the prison has allowed live music. in 20 years. I mean, how does that feel? That's like That's cool. Stevie Ray. Vaughan. So, even cooler shoes to. follow. For them to trust us enough to. bring our message to a yard, that prison has the most lifers in. Oregon. Oregon, there's 12 prisons in Oregon, has the most lifers. I probably met 30. 40 men that day that were doing life. It was such a different perspective, Jay, because you're not Normally when. you go into a jail, you're kind of trying to show that. change is possible and that, you know,

recidivism is that, you know, you can. bring down recidivism and go home and. actually do something productive with. your life. It's a whole different thing. when you're looking at guys that aren't. going home. You know, which made it even more. special cuz then you're just spreading. one thing, hope. Just a little smile, baby. A little love. I just want to All. I'm looking for today is a smile cuz I. know this is a place that lot lot lot. not a lot of that happens, you know? I. just want these guys rocking, and it was. chicken soup for the soul, Jay. You. should come with me one day. I would Do. you know what? I was just speaking to.

uh the gentleman outside, what's his. name? Miles. Yes. and I I was telling him when. I was reading about. researching the work you're doing, I would love to. be alongside you in any way I can. I. think it's amazing. reach out. We're setting up something. big with a big prison. We'll talk about it off camera, but we. can use all this, but I'll tell you the. exact when you'll be like, "Oh.". But we do it. I'd love to have you come. out and be a part of it. in any way. I think the work you're. doing is spectacular. When I was. researching for this interview and. reading about all the stuff you did, I. was like, I couldn't believe it. I was. like, this is.

this is exactly it. I mean, this is. what's needed. This is the most. important work you could do right now. So, anywhere I can be helpful, Thank you, man. I'm all in. You just let. me know. I will call. It's. I'm putting putting feet on faith, baby. That's what we say. You know, you got to. it's it's one thing to sit in these. interviews and talk all that but. it's another one you got to get up and. go do it. You know, and I and I and I. got and I as a musician, I make it a. point to. to go do it. It's also so much easier. what we do than what most people do. because, you know, it's music, right? It. just it works anywhere all the time. You.

know what I mean? It's just super. It's. like I love sometimes we'll go to these. places we won't talk at all. We'll just. go in and sing three or four songs just. like a regular show, you know, we don't. it's just. being present, man. It's just seeing an. inspiration, inspiring these guys. It's such a dark place. Those places are. people are getting. sexually assaulted every day in there. You know what I mean? It's. people do not truly understand how dark. prison is. It is a one It is the scariest thing.

I've ever lived through, any kind of any. kind of incarceration. So, you see them. dudes out there smiling and nodding. their head for a day and dancing, dude. Man, I'll make you cry like a baby on. the way out. Oh, man. Are there any memorable. interactions you've had, any with any. inmates that kind of stick out to you or. any conversations that you have had that. Tons, but I'll start with the Oregon. State Penitentiary, Jay. Man, so there. was some guys that were working the. prison. So, they're the ones who set up. the equipment that day. Uh. you know, they're they're they're the. trustees is what they are. They're the.

people that they trust in this prison. So I. first moment. talking about ego death. I'm singing and. I come off stage. I go, "Hey, I'd love. to meet as many of y'all as I can before. I leave.". So I go kind of stand over here and. everybody on that yard formed a line to. get an autograph from me. And I was like, "What an ego death for. these guys?" Like these are tough dudes. These are you know, these are murderers. You know what I'm saying? That are. standing in line to get one for their. daughter for their wife. So you see the. humanity in them. You know what I mean?

And the and the and the gratefulness cuz. they've been incarcerated so long that. getting an extra snack at dinner is a. big deal where they thank you. Thank. you. Thank you. So it was like, but then after I meet I. meet 300 inmates, sign autographs, hug. everybody, I touched everybody. It was. just it was emotionally. I come back and there's these 20. trustees, Jay. And they go, "Can we grab. some pics?" I was like, "Of course." So. I'm taking pics with all of them. And. the guy taking the picture has been in. there for 39 years. He spent 30.

something years on death row before they. got rid of the death penalty in Oregon. Completely in solitary. Now he's the. camera guy for the prison. He's still. incarcerated. But we're all taking these pictures and. at the end of it they go, "Hey, can we. take one with just the lifers?" And I'm. like, "Yeah." Now these are the. trustees. These are the best inmates in. this prison. And when they said the lifers, I thought. maybe it was two or three of them. I've. been talking to these guys. Every one of. them were the smartest, most talented. They were just awesome guys. 12 of the 20 were doing life, Jay. And I was so emotional in that moment,

dog, because they were so full of life. Um they were so grateful I was there. And these dudes will never see the. streets again. And uh we're taking a picture and I'm. starting to cry like I am now and I'm. like, "God, this is just cuz they were. just. I was hopeful that. I was hopeful that some of these guys. were going home.

Cuz they're telling me their dreams. Their wives, their kids, you know, showing me pictures and. I'm excited. I'm thinking all these are. trustees. At least some of these guys. has got a chance. And it was just sad, man. But the good thing about humor is while. we're taking the pictures, I go, "Damn, it was 12 of y'all?" He said, "Yeah." I. said, "Well, hell, it would have been. easier just tell the eighth one to get. out of my life, get out of the picture.". And then one good thing about prison is. every one of them cried.

Every one of them cried laughing. I said. uh And I was right before I turned. around and left, I said, "I'm going to. come back and do this again next year.". And they said, "We're not going. anywhere.". And I was like, "Thank y'all for making. me laugh." But um. it was just such a moment cuz I had. never even fully experienced that yet. I've been to a lot of prisons and a lot. of jails. But I had never got to do the yard or do. three, four hundred inmates, and I'd. never got to really go into death row or. go into see this many people doing It's. such a different perspective. You go to. jail, I'm spreading hope like, "Hey, you're coming home. You can change.".

There's dudes that are never coming. home. You know? Never coming home. And uh man, it just really really really with. me a little bit. Mhm. Absolutely. Sorry I got emotional on here. No, man. No, I think you you invited us. into a world that we wouldn't have a. understanding of, right? Like that isn't. a daily experience. We're not We're not. getting to interact with what that feels. like. And. we can have all of our views and. assumptions or whatever it may be, but I. think through you we're getting to have.

a human experience of of what that looks. like. And. I wanted everyone to know this. If you. haven't heard Jelly Roll's congressional. speech, I highly recommend it to. everyone. I thought that was one of the. most powerful. things that I've seen you do. Every every line was just. so. What's the right word I'm looking for? It was just so clear. It was so. powerful. It was so It just grabbed my. attention immediately. You said. I There was one thing that just stood.

out to me. I had to write it down. You. said that. there's. 190 people every day that die in the. USA. And you said that that was based on. Well, I'll let you explain. Actually, you explain the point cuz you went on to. compare it to a 737 plane. Yeah. And. when I heard that, I was like. I'm going to let you explain because. it's so powerful, but I want everyone to. go listen to that speech as well. Please. The idea that I said was Could. you imagine if there was a plane. crashing every single day in the United.

States of America with 200 passengers on. it? How many days would that happen before. as Americans we completely lost it, canceled every flight, looked under every engine of every plane. again, whatever I mean, we would. you know, I also use the comparison. sometimes that if there was 11 squirrels. a day dying in Central Park unexplained. I bet that don't go 4 days before the. EPA comes out there, shuts Central Park.

down, and it's a national crisis. I bet. 50 squirrels die before it is like, "Hold on, we've got to figure this out.". But 190 humans, Jay, every single day. are dying because of drugs. Yeah. Drug addiction and fentanyl, and. the way we have looked at them. previously as society is. that's their fault. That's their choice. They chose to be drug addicts. They. should make their bed and lay in it. One, that's just such a not. compassionate way to look at life and.

humans. That's just such a way to. dehumanize people. And I think part of. us dehumanizing people is why America's. got put into all these separate boxes. and so against each other. I'd say this, and I mean it. I went and. spoke to Congress because I had a moment. where I was like, "Maybe I should bring. these statistics here. cuz there's no way. our federal government could know this. is happening and not be doing nothing. about it, right? I just I don't I would. like to believe in the betterment of the. world that that they just don't know. Let me be the guy that goes and tells.

them like, "Hey, maybe y'all are missing. what's really happening out here. Y'all. are so busy arguing with each other. about stuff that people have been. disagreeing about for 100 years. anyways.". What I know is, and I said this in a. speech, and I really really do hope. y'all go check it out. This is. somebody's cousin. Jay, have you ever. known somebody that's been addicted to. drugs like real like a heroin addiction, like a full-blown like somebody close to. you by chance? Yeah, close to a friend, yeah. If you've. never experienced that, for the people. watching that might not have, it's like seeing somebody you've known.

your whole life become a zombie. Mhm. It's like watching somebody you've known. your whole life become a completely. different human. They talk different, act different. It's irrational. It makes. no sense at all. You have no clue what drugs do to people. if you've never really experienced that. And those are mostly the people who are. quick to go, "Oh, they should just. shouldn't do them in the first place.". It's like, man, you don't know what it. was like when that young lady broke her. back in that car accident and they. started feeding her these extremely.

addictive pain pills to help with the. pain that she couldn't shake herself out. of. And then eventually, if you're doing. 30, 20 Lortabs a day, it's cheaper to go. get a gram of heroin. You know, this issue these are humans. It's kind of like I try to talk about. the inmates, man. Um kids, they've done. horrible things, but they're humans. And I want to humanize What I wanted to. do in that speech, Jay, was I wanted to. humanize drug addicts. I wanted people. to remember that, and that's why I said. to that panel, I said, "It's some of. y'all right now sitting up here in this.

Senate that have family members that. you're thinking of right this moment. that are addicted to drugs, and you know. what I'm telling is truth. Does that person have to die before you. walk up here and make a difference? Um. that's all I want, man. And. just back to practicing what we preach. It's. sad that we didn't learn nothing from. They said history's bound to repeat. itself if we don't learn nothing from. it. And I don't think anything could be more. true if you watch what was the cocaine. epidemic into the crack epidemic into.

the pill mill epidemic into what was the. heroin epidemic that's now into the. fentanyl epidemic. And it's has done nothing but it's a. snowball that's just getting bigger and. bigger and less addressed. We got to do. something about it, man. How did they. receive it? What was the What did What. did you feel. was their response? I felt genuine love. in that room. I felt like they were very. receptive. Um. I think the the bill the bill got passed.

into the law, which was a big which was. a huge huge deal cuz that bill had got. put up three or four times before it. never got passed, so That's huge. But. what it did the most, Jay, was I'm walking the Grammy red carpet. And I will never say the names, but when. I tell you A-list celebrities, we'll. talk about it off camera, friends of. ours, friends of mine now, probably been. friends of years, are dragging me to the. side going, "Hey, I just want to tell. you. I have never heard a song of yours, but I watched the 5 minutes and 37.

seconds that you gave that speech to. Congress and I cried because my son. is 7 years sober.". And. right then I was like, "This is what. God's purpose was for me." Was for these. kind of conversations to not be taboo no. more. To be. These aren't. conversations that are being had on. Grammy red carpets. These aren't. conversations being had at Clive Davis's. party. And I'm creating this kind of. vulnerability with people that they that. they'll walk up to me So it wouldn't. even just celebrities, people that work.

there, security guys. "Hey, man, what. you did at Sent It, man, thank you. I. got a nephew. I got a niece. It showed me how it started putting. faces to these 190 people a day. And once we started putting faces to. them, I think things will change. It's. my hope at least, you know. Yeah. No, I think that's what whether. it's you telling us. the stories of the inmates or the. congressional speech. I love that you. said it in your own words that. it's really humanizing these stories and. these experiences of people that. are happening all around us.

And we either choose not to believe they. exist or we live in a blissful ignorance. or. you know, hide away from it all or put. it away into this area of society and. I think it. it's it's harsh, but it's like until we. have to deal with it face-to-face, we. don't really deal with it. And so, being. aware of it, hearing about it in all of. these spaces, opening up conversations. You're right. I mean, I hear it. I hear. about I'm sure from this interview, I'm. going to get so many calls and messages. saying, "Oh my god, I saw the clip of. you Jelly Roll and Jelly Roll speaking.

about that made, you know, that's going. to happen." Right. I hope so. And and I think that's the beginning of. the opposite snowball effect to the one. you're talking about. Of people having real conversations. about it. And maybe that'll start. helping I mean, dude, getting into a. rehabilitation center in America is so. hard. Getting into a real rehab, the. ones that are state-funded or federally. funded or backed up for years. You can't afford the other ones, you. know, I mean, it's a. it's a big problem to fix, but it's one. that it's one of the ones I'm going to. advocate for. I'm definitely going to.

spend my time and life. pushing towards that cuz I know what. drug addiction did to my family. Mhm. Do y'all hear all this in the speech? You know, my daughter is a victim of. drug addiction. I I used to think drugs. was um. a selfless crime, right? I used to think. they were that it was like nobody got. harmed kind of crime. It was like this. was a fair exchange. You need drugs, I have drugs, you have. money, here's the drugs for your money. It was just like it was I used to. justify it like it's no different than. KFC selling that chicken that's killing.

people. You know, it was that was you remember. now you get an insight into how I used. to think when we were talking about it. earlier. And then when I came home. from jail and my daughter was born and. her mother was addicted to heroin and. was completely out of her life. Now I every day look in the eyes of a. victim. of what drug dealing is and what drugs. are. And I was a guy that sold drugs. I. went to jail for selling drugs. I got. caught with the same pain pills that. lead to people doing heroin. I got. caught with cocaine. I got caught with. crack. I got caught with these these I.

was selling these same drugs. That's why. I'm so passionate about it, Jay. That's why I tear up when we talk about. drug addicts or prisoner inmates cuz I. remember genuinely being. the other side of that problem. The same. guy So this has been so good for me. The. same guy we talked about it 40 minutes. ago where I was like that dude did not. think logical at all. You know, thought. it was that I was I was better than KFC. I had more integrity than KFC. They're. killing people and not talking about it.

That was how lack of accountability I. had in life. Even when I'm selling. heroin and I justified it by well so was. KFC, you know, it's like come on now, big fella. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I hope I hope there's. accountability there too as well. Me too. Yeah, now I'm like yeah. I think. I think that does need to change too. Yeah. It's there's there's stuff that. happened. There was this picture that I. saw you spoke about your daughter just. for a second. This picture that I loved. It brought so much joy to my heart.

This one. Oh, yeah. That's my munchkin, dude. It brought so much joy to my heart when. I saw that. What's it been like to. perform together, man? Cuz. so cool. That's like such a Just to share. anything in life together, but then to. share what we both love and. I was the first and I don't I don't. know. I think if I remember right, you. were the first person in your family to. kind of go into the space you're in? Yes. Nobody We know I don't come from a. family of musicians. I come from a. family of the opposite. I don't Nobody. in my family can carry a tune in a.

bucket. We all Nobody has music there. We sound like drunk alley cats together. It is nothing. So, when my daughter. started getting interested in the guitar. and the piano, it was like I didn't I. tried not to show her, Yeah. but. everything in me was just glowing. Same. way I have a niece that plays the guitar. and I just was so excited when she. picked it up. I was like. I think I might have been the. inspiration that'll change this family. and that in three generations we'll be a. music family. Yeah. Three generations. from now those kids will be born. probably wanting to play instruments. because everybody in the family did.

something, you know? And they'll link. back one day and go, "We always been a. music family." And then somebody gets to. go, "No. Actually, you had a great great. grandfather that wrote a bunch of. country songs that was famous.". That's beautiful. That's beautiful, man. It's like uh. you you getting to rewrite your family's. history. Yes, sir. Yeah. Breaking. generational curses, Bonnie and I were. That was our mission, too, man. Taking. an ex-drug dealer, convict, and an. ex-prostitute. and showing people that you can really. come from the sketchiest of past and.

completely change everything about it. Change everything about the way you look. at life, how you interact with people. Uh it's never too late to forgive. It's. never too late to love. It's never too. late in life, anyways. Jay, I'm I'll be. 40. I didn't This didn't start. working for me till I was 37. You know. what I mean? You know how long I was. throwing darts in the dark? It's There. had to been groups of people around me. that loved me that just Now I'm glad. they didn't They were just scared to. come go, "Hey, Bubba. Maybe You know what I'm saying? I don't. know." When's your birthday? Uh.

December. December the. 4th. 4th. Yeah, I'll be 40 December the 4th, baby. that. Yeah, that speech you gave at the. CMAs last year, I mean, that just like. you you like took us to church. That's. what it felt like. When I saw that, I. was like I felt like I was at church. Thank you. It's like a jelly roll show. I got to get you out to one. They're um. I used to. I have a natural love I grew up in a. Southern Baptist church. So I have a. natural thing that happens whenever I. speak. But one day I came off stage and.

somebody said that was church tonight. That was church. This was a 200 person. bar. And my wife goes that was church and I. looked at her and I was such a Southern. Baptist still. I was like. I hadn't really forged my own true. relationship with my higher power like I. have at this time. And I was like hey that's where I'm from. that's sacrilegious. I don't want to. call this church. I know some people no. no no no no. But wait you're in love. with this goes. And she goes. this is the only church some of those. people ever walk into. Jay. I changed it. Now it's church. I make it.

church. So you saying that that's what I. want people to feel. Cuz I have a room. full of people every night that might be. disconnected from any kind of. spirituality but they're all hurting and. this music has helped them in some way. and we can this can be church for them. You know what I'm saying? It's like I. want you to laugh. I want you to dance. I want you to cry and I want you to. leave inspired and feeling 10 pounds. lighter. Yes. You know I don't want now. you know what some cries will put you to. sleep and some cries make you feel. better. I want to make you feel better. cry not to put you to sleep cry, you.

know? And that is it and ever since then we we. lean into it. We call it the it's the. church man. It's this is church. We say. it on stage every night brother. This is. church. And once again my wife. my purpose. reframe that for me in a way that I. needed it. Cuz you she was like why. would you go away from what you. naturally do? God naturally gave you a gift of. evangelism of the way that you speak. like this is church. Right then I was. like you're right this is church. And.

ever since then it's been church baby. Yeah. No I love that. It's uh. And for me too it's been like uh. in our tradition it's almost like you. you carry a temple in your heart, right? Like you carry carry God within your. heart. And so, a lot of people to me would also. be like, "Why are you going to this. event? Why are you in this like Why are. you going to this event and that event?". And I'm like, "If Usually when I go to these events, someone will come up to me and start a. spiritual, God-centered, healing conversation." I'm like, "But if.

I don't show up in these places, we're. not going to have that conversation.". So, that conversation heals me, that. conversation hopefully helps and. supports someone else. It's like I get. to go as an ambassador for spirituality. and get to just put in a little sprinkle. of a reminder. And that to me feels like a hopeful, beautiful thing to do because you never. know who's going to need that. conversation, that interaction, that. connection. It's not that I'm doing it. I don't have any of that power. But when.

we're being a vessel, when we're being. an instrument, we're happy to play that. play our role and play our part. and just. be there as a as a connector of worlds. and be a portal. You know, I don't have any power or any. any of that, but the ability to just. represent. whatever that may be to the individual. I think to me, that's That's how I see. my role in these places and. it's To me, I I I feel like that's what. I needed. Yeah. Well, sometimes the messenger has.

to become the message. Yeah. Right? And. you your presence, Jay, sometimes you got to go places like I. think about us. I don't know how long it would have took. for the universe to put us together had. it not happened at a Clive Davis party. I know I've been wanting it to happen. And also equally, the last person I. thought I was going to meet at a Clive. Davis party was Jay Shetty. You know. what I'm saying? So, it was really cool. for me to be like cuz I'm an example of. that of you being somewhere where. somebody might be like, "Yo, what's he. doing out at this party at 1:00 in the.

morning?". But it's like you've helped me a ton and. getting to see you lifted me just seeing. you and hugging you lifted my spirit. It's like um. I always call them little them little. arrows that are showing you you're going. the right way and we ignore them so much. in life we miss them. And to me you're. an arrow. You were an arrow that night. You know what I mean? Uh Tyler Childers. was at my table. He's a country music. artist I love. I'd never met him and he. said I'm a big fan. Him just saying that. to me was like that's an arrow. And I'm. pointing the I'm going the right. direction around here. You know what I'm. saying? This is all right. I wasn't as.

lost as I thought I'd be at a big LA. party. You know what I'm saying? Oh dude, yeah, exactly. That's what I. mean. Like that idea. It's a big LA. party and same for me. I was like I'm. watching this guy sing about God on. stage. And this is insane. You know, and. it was it was it was so special and I. think. watching you just grow. I mean this new. album I've I've picked out some of my. favorite lyrics from some of my favorite. tracks from yours. There's this uh. Oh, this one. Heart of Stone. Yeah. There's one lyric that says I've had. enough of my demons, but angels only. meet you where you are and I'm in the.

dark. Mhm. This is my favorite song on the album. I. did not know that. I know. That's what's so cool. And it's my favorite song cuz of the. lyrics. I think these lyrics say the most in. this whole album if they were like. lyrically. who do you stand for and what do you. stand by on this album? Every song's. great. Winning Streak means a lot to me, but. this record, man, um. that line that angels only meet you. where you are and I'm in the dark. And. it goes at least for now Lord I ain't. losing hope that somehow you could make. a heart of gold from a heart of stone.

And. I love songs. when you can read a song and it's. impactful. That is as a songwriter, Jay. that's it. That's the telltale cuz most. of the time our message is in the. melody. And if you don't have the melody. there it'll kind of be like oh, that. didn't sound as cool as I thought it'd. be when I just read it flat. But when I. read Heart of Stone it goes uh dear. Lord, can you hear me? Um. What uh dear Lord, can you hear me? I've.

fallen out of grace. It's running like the river, filled with. all of my mistakes. My blood is getting. heavy, there's metal in my veins. The second verse goes, "Dear Lord, can. you hear me? I'm shackled in these. chains. I'm haunted by the lies of every. time I said I'd change.". It's slipping through the shadows, and. that's weighing on my soul. The lights. are shining on me, but there ain't. nobody home. I get goosebumps reading that, and I. wrote it. You know what I mean? It's.

like that's. To me, that was the ultimate cry for. help. You know what I mean? And like my. whole music is about honesty. I love the. idea of being like. God, I know I need you. You know what I mean? But you got to. come over here, and I'm in a really dark. place if you're going to get me out of. this one, you know? Yeah, man, that song is just the goose I. just every lyric on that record, man. Just that song was the one. I would not let that song go. I We We.

wrote that song three different times. Oh, wow. True story. Just where I'd go home and just be like, it's just not. I wanted every. every single line You wrote books, so. you know every single word can't be a. killer. It can't. You know what I mean? But this song I. just was like I want every line of this. song to be thought out. I want it to be. a killer. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I might do that on the page. You. do that on the song. For sure, yeah. But. sometimes you got to get people to the. You got to set them up for the kill. And. so they really get it. You know what I.

mean? But this was one of those where. it's like I just wanted Man, every lyric. on that was it for me. So powerful. There's another one that I love. I mean, there's so many, but I'm picking a. couple that I loved, and we've talked. about this. This is on Unpretty. Uh I hate the man I used to be, but he. will always be a part of me. The man who. I was wrong, but he's the one who built. me. I feel like that's been our. conversation today. of just being able to accept. that he'll will be a part of you, but. that doesn't make you any. less than. It's uh.

Do you ever watch Stutz? Yeah. It's the. shadow, right? You know what I mean? It's that uh it's. that idea of the shadow that's. there. It's Yeah, that's that's exactly. the. There was I'm so glad you got to get. into these lyrics and you're picking the. ones that were me and Miles were talking. about the other day is that you can tell. on this album that I was doing some. work. Cuz it came out on the album like. the way that I'm the stuff the way I'm. writing is clearly like Oh, you're like, "Oh, yeah, this kid's really doing some. therapy." For sure, for sure. And and.

and so so clearly, I mean, this is. higher than heaven. Uh I get higher than. heaven to hide from myself. You know, that just even that idea. Yeah. Like. is there a place higher than heaven? Right, right, exactly. Yeah, 100%. And then think about this, you. want to get to heaven to hide from you. Yeah. The the thought of that was so. good. And you hearing that lyric, right, was awesome. I had to send back to my. label they sent me the lyric cuz they. tried to transcribe my lyrics and I'm so. country they thought I said too high for.

myself. And I was like, "No, no, no, too. high. from myself." And they were like, "Okay." And I was like, "That was cool, too, but not as cool as hiding from. myself." I love that. That's so funny. That's hilarious. No, but I'm so excited. for people to hear it. I was lucky. enough to, you know, get it earlier. I'm. so excited for you. Thanks for taking the time to listen to. a couple of them, too, man. course. No, I think it's I mean, it's. not even. I I I listened to a lot of it, but those. were just I mean, I've got so many more, but we could go on for every track, but.

I just feel like. it it's healing music and it's. like I said earlier, I could pray to it, I could meditate to it, I could dance to. it, I could hang to it, I could, you. know, and I think it's rare that I feel. that way where a lot of music when it. tries to be healing, it's cheesy, it's. like kind of like a bit corny, it. doesn't, you know, and I feel that's. when it's your real journey. That's that. comes across. Exactly. Because you're not trying to. preach, you're actually going through. it. Exactly. You're going through it with.

the Me and the listener are going. through this together and we're sharing. this experience and feeling together. Yeah. And it's also, you're right, cuz. you know what? When they try to write. songs, they try to write these you. songs. And nobody wants to be you'd. You. know what I mean? It's like, you know, uh. I know I know you I know you're feeling. down. It's like, yeah, I don't You know, you don't know I'm feeling down. You. know what I mean? So, yeah, they just. write it on such a weird They had. They're so hard to write cathartic music. without it coming off super corny or. preachy or. Yeah. Also, that's why I don't feel a need to.

resolve every song. Mhm. And this is where we talk about how my. sausage is made a little bit, but. I think artists and songwriters feel the. need to resolve songs. It's like uh like. a song is a movie story. Yeah, yeah, and. it's like it's not. This is just a part of the movie. It. doesn't have to resolve. Like, there. doesn't have to be Hope can happen at. the end of the album. Hope can happen on. the first song of the album, right? But. you can take them through a genuine. journey. Everything doesn't have to cap. You know what I mean? It doesn't Some. Sometimes leaving a song unresolved.

Fire and Rain by James Taylor. I feel. like that song never fully resolved. itself, right? And because of that, it's made it open. for my interpretation. And it's uh. Against the Wind by Bob Seger. Never. really resolved itself. These songs are. the songs I always come back to because. you can identify with them every part of. your life, you know? When you resolve a song, sometimes you. take that away and you take away the. power from allowing the person who's. hearing hearing the song to heal from. what they're getting from it. I hate.

when people go, "What was this song. about?" I love it when people like you. go, "What's up with this lyric? This is. deep." When they're like, "So, what's. this song about?" I'm like, "Yo, I want this person to get something from. this song. I don't know what they might. think about if I've tell them what I. thought it was about, they might not. ever hear it the way they need to hear. it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, because then it's not their story. They're not a part of the story. Yeah, you want someone to fill in the blanks. You want someone to be the guy in the. glass. Art, exactly. Art is open for. interpretation. And I want you to find. yourself in it, which is also why I. write from first person a lot. It's not.

a big I thing cuz I'm not a big I guy. But first person writing for me is a. it's a cry for help that we can all. feel, you know? Yeah. Yeah. There's only two more things. I want to talk to you about because I. know you got to get out here to perform. today. You've been so kind to us. This blew my mind. Uh Jim Todd. Yes. I mean. This is crazy. This is crazy. Like when. I heard about this, I was like, what? So, Jim Todd, who's the young attorney. who prosecuted you,

you're now working with him. That's. true. This is a fact. This is the first. time we told the story, too. This is. really cool. This is amazing. Yeah, he's starting the Dinkin the. Dinkin Center for juveniles to teach. trades for juvenile at-risk kids. And you want to talk about somebody just. being awesome, Jay? Imagine being the guy who he charged me. as an adult, bound me over. I mean, the. hardest thing that's ever happened in my. life, a felony I'm still trying to get. rid of, is now working to help juveniles. And. then me, the same kid he bound over, who.

was as wrong as I should have been, you. know, are now work It's just to me. one, it's. such a change. It's such a signature of. like. I keep having these really cool moments, Jay, where I'm like, what a full circle. moment. God really You know how there's. a there's an old saying that when you do. right, they'll restore everything that. went wrong? I'm watching it all restore. It's happening, Jay. Right in front of me, dog. Like my old. prosecuting attorneys, my partner now to.

help juveniles. You know, that old juvenile I was in now let me. build studios in it and paint the walls. for the kids. Um you just like I look at. all these moments and I'm like, man God. is like he's healing my inner child in. front of the world. It's dude when I got slimed at. Nickelodeon, I was like I went back that. night and I was like and I got to do. some of Summer Slam. I got to choke slam. somebody at Summer Slam. I was like God. is really healing my inner child in. front of the world. You know what I.

mean? I suffered in silence by myself. for so long that I'm now getting to. redeem myself on a national platform. The sheriff to Davidson County's jail. His name's Daron Hall. 22 years he's. been a sheriff. He was the sheriff whenever I was in. that county jail last time I got locked. up the day my daughter was born. He gave me a key to the jail I was. locked up in. He's the first inmate he's. ever gave a key to the jail to and I got. a necklace made. I made it diamond. crusted got a necklace with a pair of.

handcuffs for every time I got arrested. for it and I call it my redemption. chain. And to have the relationship with. Sheriff Daron Hall that we're close, my. mayor loves me. Me and Jim Todd, I mean. that guy put me in jail. Who reached out. to who? Yeah, yeah. What's funny is they reached. out to us. Now I've always been friends. with him because. when he became an attorney we used to. talk and he represented a couple of. cases of mine that wasn't that case cuz. he. conflict of interest. The cool part of. this story is not even just what. I'm doing with it but him. Think about.

the heart change he had to be hands-on. and watch the system fail these kids for. so many years that it bothered him. enough that later in life he was like I. got to circle back and fix that. That's beautiful, isn't it? You know. what I mean? Like Jim Todd's the real. hero of that story to me. You know what. I mean? Cuz hell I've been changed my. life. Glad you came around. You know what I'm saying? That's what it just shows that if. everyone's intentionally reflecting, looking at their life, what's possible. That's it. Just a little bit of a Jim.

Todd had some Guy in the Glass moment, didn't he? At some point in time he went. looked at Guy in the Glass and said, But. know what? I was a part of the problem. at one point, too. And um. I want to be part of the solution now. Let's help these kids. Let's give these. kids the resources they didn't have. whenever I was a district attorney. And they said that uh he had that heart. back then. But you want to talk about. humanizing stuff, Jay. And I go I do a. songwriter program with a company called. The Beat of Life at the juvenile I was. incarcerated in. And uh. we go in there one day and Judge. Calloway, who's a judge in juvenile, is.

there. And she came in to write songs, Jay. And I'm in there watching. for the first time I'm listening to her. and her group, and they're giggling. They're laughing, they're writing. lyrics, they're having a ball. And I thought to myself. back to the human thing. I love that. we've had themes in this whole. conversation. She seen those kids as kids for the. first time. She got not not a inmate. case number that killed somebody or shot. somebody or did something wrong. She. seen them as little giddy 15-year-olds.

playing cards and trying to write a song. they'd never wrote before. And they got to see her as a concerned. mother. And man, it just it was so I cried. I. mean, it was just so special to watch. And it was so it was such a good thing. They were so in the moment they didn't. realize how special it was. It's when she left I was like, "I want. you to know that that is the coolest. thing. that I've ever seen a judge do. That you. came, took off the robe, showed up in regular. clothes, and sat down and wrote songs with these. kids. Like, that'll go miles with.

everybody. You know what I mean? I. understand you still have a job to do. and guidelines you got to abide by. But I think this humanized everybody. I. think we all looked at each other a. little different that day in that jail. cell. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And uh it was cool because. you could tell that she loved songs and. singing in church. So, to be a part of. that, it brought out a little child in. her, right? And then these kids, they'd. never wrote a song, so they're just. they're they're they're really tough. kids that are holding it back and they. just you start seeing them get excited. And I was like, "This is special, man. This is uh this is redemption.".

Spectacular. It's incredible. I want to. end with one thing, Jelly Roll, that uh. we reached out to your brother who sent. through this beautiful. love letter for you. Um Scott? Yes. And so I'm going to read. it to you if you don't mind because uh. you've given us such a gift today and I. wanted to find a way to thank you and I. thought who better than the person who's. known you for so long. So he says, "Dear. Bubba Love, That's my Bubba. where to begin? First off, I just want to tell you how.

unbelievably proud I am of you for what. you have achieved and even more so the. man you have become. Personally, one of my proudest memories. was being in the courthouse with you, Bonnie, Dad, and Pook the day you got. full custody of Bailey. Makes me tear up a little just. remembering how proud we all were of the. man you grew to be even back then. One of those moments I remember looking. at Dad with a smile and not even having. to say a word.

Growing up, I always saw the talent that. the world is getting to see now. Thinking back to your first day of. middle school and you had missed the bus. so Mama said, "Take your brother to. school.". We pull up across from JC Napier Housing. Projects and before you could open the. car door, me telling you that it would. probably be a good idea to start rapping. or to not be the guy who doesn't throw. the first punch. Lol. You figured it out, brother. You were. freestyling every ride after that.

I know growing up I was not always the. best role model and the older I got has. given me many sleepless nights of. regret. You always always always came to visit. me when I was locked up and yeah, I came. to juvenile a few times, but when you. got bound over, I was not there. Just know that I had to leave, TM Bubba. I know it had to hurt you that your. brother wasn't there and I'm so sorry. Being young and we came from is my only. excuse, Bubba, although not a good one.

But the amazing part of it all is what. you're doing as a human now. Being so young and getting out of being. incarcerated over and over, then hearing you had a little girl born. while being there, you grew strength and. changed everything. Started helping others with your songs, those who went and still are going. through similar pasts and struggles as. we did. Being at your shows and seeing people. cry and be so touched by the words you. sing and person you are is amazing.

You portray love and hope, JJ. You got out of lockup and totally. changed your direction. Taking all the. negatives and turning them positive for. helping others to overcome what they've. gone through is amazing. Reaching out to me in Idaho Falls. several months ago and taking me out the. dark place I was in for years and years, I'm forever grateful for you, brother. You've always been there for me and our. family. I love you more than you will. ever know. I know Dad is in heaven. looking down smiling ear to ear with Nan.

and Bibi. He called it 30-plus years ago at the. Italian Street Fair in Brentwood, TN, where you were on stage doing karaoke to. George Strait. He looked at me and said, "Jason has. never met a stranger. One day he will be. an entertainer." Well, look at you now, Bubba. I just want you to know how proud your. family is of you and thank you for doing. what only you can do every day. Helping the world to be better and. letting people know it's never too late.

You're a true inspiration to so many, including your big brother. I love you, Bubba. Scott Scooby DeFord. Scooby, baby. God, man. That is so awesome, dude. It's for you, brother. Oh, thank you, brother. God, I love him, man. He didn't even. tell me this. He just left. I was just. with him 3 days ago. Oh, man. Uh, want to thank you for uh. just being a. amazing inspiration in my life, brother. Being introduced to you from the moment.

we met, I was like, this is the guy I need to. talk to. I'm here to support you, serve alongside. you in any way I can. Thank you, Jay. And uh. I can't wait to go on to see what you. do. I know this is just the beginning. And I'm so so inspired by you. You're a. true true light in this world and a true. testament to. every transformation we believe in. You're living it right now, so deeply. humbled and uh we end every episode with. a fast five. Every question has to be. answered in one word to one sentence. All right. And uh.

First of all though, Jay, you you I need. to give you your flowers, oh brother. You uh. Thank you again for your impact. You. don't know how many people you help. Um I always have this phrase I use that. uh it's not a ticket stub, it's a story. Those YouTube views are souls, baby, and. you're touching them. Thank you, man. Appreciate that. Deeply. Deeply, man. I feel that. I receive it. All right. Last last few minutes. Uh. question one, what is the best advice.

you've ever heard or received? Uh best advice I ever heard or received. as cliché as it is, just don't give up. It just my father was real big about. don't give up. He was just super super. He believed in the law of hours that if. you put enough time into something, it. would work. Mhm. Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever. heard or received? Give up. The worst advice I ever received was. somebody telling me, you know, it's not. going to work. I love that. Cut your. losses.

Question number three, if you could. define your current purpose, what would. it be? Mhm. My current purpose. is to help. and heal. I think my current purpose is. to help people heal through music. Mhm. Beautiful. Uh question number four, a message you'd like to share to anyone. who's listening right now. like just what you need them to hear. what you feel they need to hear right. now. I started my speech but I live by this. quote. It's a quote I live by that the. windshield is bigger than the rearview.

for a reason baby. You just got to move. forward dog. I love it. And fifth and. final question, we ask this to every. guest who's ever been on the show. If. you could create a law that everyone in. the world had to follow, what would it. be? Love. Truly love. Truly act out of love. Um, if you just thought to yourself, is that. what love would say. every time you were fixing to say. something it would change the way we all. talk to each other. Jelly Roll, thank. you so much. Thank you, brother. Thank you, man. is out right now while we're speaking.

and uh. Beautifully Broken, baby. You got the. biggest podcast in the world. Shameless. plug. My name is Jason Jelly Roll. DeFord. My album is available. It's. called Beautifully Broken. Check it out. I'm trying to have my first number one. album. We're going to make it happen. We're going to make it happen. Your mouth to God's ears, baby. We're. going to make it happen. We're going to. put everything behind it. Beautifully. Broken all the way. I'm so grateful, Jelly Roll. Thank you for such a good conversation, Jay. Love you, brother. Love you, man. Thank you so much. Thank you, brother. If this is the year that you're trying. to get creative, you're trying to build. more, I need you to listen to this. episode with Rick Rubin on how to break.

into your most creative self, how to use. unconventional methods that lead to. success, and the secret to genuinely. loving what you do. If you're trying to. find your passion and your lane, Rick. Rubin's episode is the one for you. Just. because I like it, that doesn't give it. any value. Like as an artist, if you. like it, that's all of the value. That's. the success comes when you say, "I like. this enough for other people to see it.".