Jay-Z's Business Partner: How To Transform Your Passion Into Profit (& make MILLIONS)

I don't give a. about my net worth. So, many people tell. me, "I've got this great idea, but I. don't want to hear about but." Like, let's go for it. Part of being an. entrepreneur is to have the courage to. fail. If you're afraid to fail, you. ain't going to do With the global. sports company Fanatics, you heard of. it? Yeah, you have. Founder and CEO. Michael Rubin. Welcome back, sir. I've. seen death in its eyes. I've almost gone. bankrupt multiple times. There are so. many things that I should not have. succeeded at, but I have because I won't. quit. If you set goals that are easy to. accomplish, then you're actually saying. you want to fail. Before we jump into.

this episode, I'd like to invite you to. join this community to hear more. interviews that will help you become. happier, healthier, and more healed. All. I want you to do is click on the. subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your. comments, and we're just getting. started. I can't wait to go on this. journey with you. Thank you so much for. subscribing. It means the world to me. The best-selling author and host. The number one health and wellness. podcast. with Jay Shetty. I want to ask you, Michael, what was you.

know, you're such a successful business. person. What was your first ever job. that you ever had in life? So, for me, I. think a lot of people know the story. I. was a terrible student. You know, barely. made it out of high school, went to. college for less than a semester. Um, as bad as a student as I was, I was. honestly a worse athlete. Like, I was. just I wasn't coordinated. I wasn't a. good athlete. The one thing I was always. good at was working. Like, I loved. business from the time I was a kid. So, everything I remember about being young. was working. So, my first job was that I. can remember is probably 8 years old. I.

probably had like five different side. hustles. I mean, I was selling trading. cards. You know, by the way, not to my. friends, but to my friends' parents cuz. they had the money. I was when it would. snow in Philadelphia where I grew up, I. would get five kids to do the snow. shoveling, and I would go door-to-door. and actually sell the snow shoveling. I. was selling vegetable seeds. door-to-door. I was making stationary on. the Apple II Plus and selling it. I. mean, I was just like I was a real. entrepreneur. Like, I it's what I was. good at. It's what I liked doing. And. so, I had so So different jobs as an. 8-year-old, but I mean, that's like when. people say, you know, "How long you've. been at it?" It's crazy. 43 years. I've.

been doing this since I've been 8 years. old. Wow. And when you were doing that, was there any inspiration? Was it just. you wanted money? What did you want to. buy? What were you doing with that? Like, what what excited you about it? I don't think for me, even at 8 years. old, it was ever about money or wanting. to buy things. I think it was always. about doing what you're good at. And for. me, uh knowing that I wasn't a good. Like, I had a lot of learning. challenges. I mean, as a kid, like, I. had every, you know, person to try to. help me with all the things I sucked at, whether it was athletically or, you. know, it was just like, I just I wasn't.

good at sports. I wasn't good at school, but business is what I was good at. So, I just always gravitate to that. I think. that's a good thing. Like, you should. always figure out how to do things that. you love. You should figure out how to. do things that you're good at and kind. of double down on that. So, that's. always been my whole life. How did you know that at 8? Because I. feel like most 8-year-olds today are. obviously playing video games. Back. then, they were probably watching TV. Maybe they were out riding a bike. Like, how did you know that you were good at. this? And I think it's something for me. I was born with. Like, I was born with. that entrepreneurial hustle. I think I. came out of the womb like just, you. know, wanting to be an entrepreneur.

Like, just loving the hustle. And you. know, to me, you know, I've been at this. a long time. I work harder than I've. ever work worked today. I love it. It's. an honor to do it. It's fun. It's an. opportunity. Like, I'm never tired. I'm. never worn out. Like, I'm just always I. just want to go. Yeah. Can it be. learned? Can you teach people to hustle. and grind and develop that mindset or is. it born with as you are? So, I think I. was definitely born with it. That said, I do think, you know, for me, the way I. learn is by being a sponge from people. So, I'm always picking things up from. different people. Like, if you just look. at the diversity of people I have around.

me, like, I'm always taking so much. learnings from them to, you know, be. better in what I do. And I try to give. those back. So, yeah, I think you can. definitely learn a lot of this stuff. You just, you know, find people you. respect. Find people that you admire. Find people that you want to be like. And then, you know, take the good from. them. And by the way, figure out what. they do that you don't like and and. ignore that. Like, I see good and bad in. each person. I try got take the good and. learn from the bad. And same with me. I. got lots of bad habits. I mean Like I'm. myself. That's right. Yeah. That's all I ask for. That's all I. ask for. There is no judgment here. There's no It's a safe space. I just.

want people to be their authentic. selves. And so so please continue to be. yourself. And uh. What's So what I love that idea of. learning from people, being a human. sponge. What's the most recent or most. memorable thing you think you took away. from someone, a conversation, a moment, uh something you read or heard or. learned? Was there anything that kind of. stuck with you? Yeah, for sure. I mean. um Look, I'm in LA for the week. I'm. doing six to 10 meetings a day in my. house and you know, two of the people I. met with in the last two days have been. through some real challenges. And just.

watching the challenges that they've. been through, I'm like, okay, I need to. be that much more careful about how I. conduct myself in everything that I do. So to me, I'm always taking learnings. away from people. I I think if you're. not, like, you know, you have no chance. of like, you know, getting better at. what you do. I mean, it's like like life. is no different than sports. You just. got to keep getting better at your. sport. And so to me, I keep working. everything I do. Yeah, what what do you. think? Obviously now, like, when you. started 43 years ago at 8 years old. entrepreneurship. wasn't as touted as this incredible.

option. It was It was actually weird. Like, to. be clear, like, I was a nerd at like. like that I loved business. Like, entrepreneurialism became cool really. around technology. Like, I I don't think. it became cool till almost that the from. my perspective, I think it was the. really the the birth of the dot-com era, you know, kind of late '90s is when. entrepreneurialism became cool. I think. before that it was kind of nerdy and. weird. So I was definitely born before. it all. Yeah, and I'd say even after the. financial crisis in like 2007-8, like, that recession, which is because I grew. up in the era where we still aspired to.

be investment bankers or consultants. So. when I was at college or when I was. growing up, that was seen if you were. into business my goal was to go into. that world because that's what I aspired. for. Whereas I think the generation. after me and the one after me, they were. like, I'm not going to go work for. someone. I want to build something on my. own. I think that's amazing. Like, for. me, I love One of the things that I'm. fortunate to do is really, I think in a. lot of ways, you know, encourage. entrepreneurialism. And, you know, one. of our biggest businesses, the. collectibles business, which is trading. cards and memorabilia, and that's all. about entrepreneurs. There's so many. entrepreneurs in that business. It's.

probably the business in a lot of ways. that I I actually relate to all three of. our businesses, but it's the business. that's maybe the most relatable for me. because I grew up selling trading cards. as an 8-year-old, but also it's all. about entrepreneurialism. Talk to me. through that business because so I. remember so back in London, obviously, where I grew up, I collected football. stickers, right? Soccer stickers. So, that's what we'd have. We'd have the big. You'd have the spread with all the. Premier League clubs, and you'd collect. the little stickers, and that was a big. part of collectibles. How is that. industry evolved as technology's grown? Or has it stayed the same? Are people.

still collecting cards and like Top. Trumps and things like that? Yeah, well, I'll say we got into the. business about 3 years ago in a really. significant way. And today, we own. Topps, which is the, you know, kind of. preeminent brand in trading cards. I'd. say that, you know, until our arrival in. the industry, a little less than 3 years. ago, I'd say there hadn't been, you. know, a tremendous amount of innovation. There hadn't been a tremendous amount of. marketing. You know, we kind of looked. at the business and wow, like this is. such an incredible collector base, such. an incredible fan base, yet it hasn't. changed for like decades here. And you.

go to a, you know, the big trading card. show where there's more than 100,000. people that come to Chicago this past. summer, it's called the National Trading. Card Show. Yet, it looks like something. from 20, 30, 40 years ago. So, for us, that was just That just meant an. opportunity. Man, if you you actually. make innovative products, you actually. really market these products, you build. a better consumer experience, and bring. people forward into 2023, like what an. opportunity. So, for me, like I We do. that in all of our business. Like, I. love Like, we love finding great. opportunities, big challenges, and kind. of being unrelenting about going after.

them. Yeah, how has that changed? How. has that practically changed? Like, are. people still buying cards and trading. and. cards are the biggest part of business. It's in a lot of ways very similar to. art, but I can tell you like just as one. quick example, this year, you know, our. team came in and actually the CEO of our. business, Mike Mahan, said, "Hey, I got. a great idea. Every time a player debuts. for the first time, I want to put a. patch on their jersey, and then as soon. as they get done the game, I want to put. that patch off and put it in a. one-on-one trading card." So, you have. the card from the from the first So, think about for for us, you know, maybe. I grew up in the in the Michael Jordan.

era. Had I had, you know, Michael Jordan. or yeah, if I had Michael Jordan or. Kobe's first one-on-one cards, yeah, that could be the the most valuable. keepsake that I could ever have. And so, you know, that innovation, like for us. it was really simple, like, yeah, why. would you not want to put a patch on. someone's jersey, stick it into a card, and make this a one-on-one card? But, no. one did that until we created it. And by. the way, it's already live. We came up. with the idea this past December. It was. in It was live in in April with with all. baseball players. It's going to be three. to 400 baseball players debut this year, you know, with this debut patch that we. put into a one-on-one card. So, that's.

just like one of dozens of examples of. innovations because you have to be. aggressive. We like we have to be great. entrepreneurs. We have to push in. whatever we do. Yeah, no, what I love. about that though for everyone who's. listening is I think we're stuck in this. world now that believes that all. innovation has to be digital or. technological or virtual or some sort. of, you know, AI. Whereas this is like. the most tangible physical change, but. it's still so valuable because it's what. people want. Look, we're in three business there. Our. first business where we started is what. we call Fanatics Commerce. That's our. merchandise business. We own Lids, the.

hat retailer. We own Mitchell & Ness. Uh. we own Fanatics, which operates, you. know, obviously all of the different. league, you know, the NFL shop, the NBA. store. And we sell, you know, more than. $6 billion of mostly fan apparel and. headwear, okay? But but um you know, you. know, more than 100 million units of. merchandise a year. That's a very. physical business, okay? But, AI is. helping us to do things more. effectively. In the collectibles. business, AI is going to help us to be. more effective. And then our third. business is the online sports betting. and iGaming business. So, you know, for. me, we still do a lot of physical.

things, but there's so many things in. the digital world that help us to be. better. Yeah, no, but I love that collaboration. and thinking about it that way because. sometimes the greatest value to someone. is a physical change but you're learning. that through the AI. I still want to. wear my Kobe jersey. Yeah, exactly exactly. I want my Braun. card. Yeah, that's the same thing. I'm. still buying I support Manchester. United. That's that's my soccer team and. I'm still buying you know, soccer. jerseys every single year. You know. that cuz that's a Fanatics side. That's. the Fanatics store. even though we absolutely even though we. absolutely suck right now but it's you. know. But that's what being a sports fan is.

about. Sometimes you got to have the. great years and you get you get those. championships and other times you got to. suck and you got to stay with your team. You got to you got to feel feel the. pain. real fan now. I grew up as a glory. hunter because we just won everything. and now I'm going through real fandom of. 10 years. you now. We're going to see what you're. made of. Are you really committed to Man. United here? Yeah, that's that's I'm. being tested right now. I'm being tested. but we were talking about people not. being entrepreneurship not being taught. at when you started. When you look at it. today, now it's become the cool, sexy, interesting, fascinating thing for.

people to want to try. It's not. necessarily things people are good at. like you said you were. It's not. necessarily a skill that we honor or. give it the the kudos that it deserves. What are the mistakes people are making. when they think about being an. entrepreneur today? Well, first of all, entrepreneurism isn't for everybody but. if you think it's for yourself, you. better go out there and try it and put. your best foot forward. You know, for me. look, the biggest mistakes I see people. make. in building a business are kind of a. couple common themes. One is first you. have like are you even going to take the.

at bat? So many people tell me I've got. this great idea but like I don't want to. hear about but like let's go for it. Let's see if you have an idea you want. to do something. You know, I love the. story you were just telling me before we. went on here that you came over here and. you know, you worked one place for six. months and you're like I want to go out. and do this. You went out and did it. Like part of being an entrepreneur is to. have the courage to fail. Like you just. have to go out there and try. And by the. way, when you fail which many times you. will, you're going to learn from that. failure. You're going to grow from that. failure. You think the best you talked. about Kobe being your favorite you know, athlete. Well, guess what? How many.

times did he fail and then he got better. and he pushed through it and so that's. what being an entrepreneur is. So from. my perspective, it's really all about. first and foremost, if you have. something you want to do, if you believe. in it, go for it. Don't worry about. whether you succeed or not. Go out and. take the swing and if guess what? If you. strike out, if you fail, just go back. again and I know some people are going. to say, oh well, he's really successful. now so it's easy to say. But I got to. tell you something, I like I've seen death in its eyes, you. know, I've almost gone bankrupt multiple. times. You know, I've had epic failures.

and every one of those led me to be. better in what I do. So that's my first. thing. Second thing I'd say is you need. great people around you to succeed. Like. whether it's great people you're. learning from that you want to be a. sponge from, whether it's you build a. great team to do what you do. Like I. know for Fanatics we have 18,000 people. that get up and go to bed obsessed with. how do we improve the fan experience. each day, but like I collect and work. with the best people on the planet. Like. if you don't work with great people, you. will fail. Like you can't win a. championship if you don't have great. talent, but that talent also works needs. to work together. And then the last.

thing and this will sound corny, but. like have fun in what you do. Like I. love what I do. I have the greatest, you. know, job on the planet. I get to wake. up, you know, work 18 hours a day, go to. bed thinking about, you know, what's. next. I dream about my work nearly every. day. Like I'm having work dreams all the. time cuz I'm obsessed with what I'm. doing. It's like it's it's fun. It's. like I should pinch myself. It's so. awesome what I get to do. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love hearing that and. I think, you know, what's fascinating to. me as well with being an entrepreneur, you know, my story was very different to. finding my way into entrepreneurship. I.

grew up thinking I had job cuz that's. how I was raised by good Indian. immigrant parents who made me. academically astute and so I was a. straight A student, did first class at. uni. Like I was always good at that. And. then I got into a job afterwards after. my own detour. And when I finally got. into a job, I was just like this doesn't. feel right. Like this doesn't feel like. this is going to use my skills to the. best of my ability. This doesn't feel. like I'm going to propel and do well and. become my best version of myself. It. wasn't about money or what I thought I. could win at. It was I just don't feel.

this is going to complete me or make me. feel like I'm winning in the way that I. can. Listen, the most important thing is. enjoying what you do every day. I'm. going to tell you something. I know a. lot of people that have been really. successful financially and they're. miserable. You know what? They don't. love what they do every day. They're not. happy. Like for me, I don't think about. financial success. I think about like just loving what I'm. doing now. Financial success can tell. you are you winning or losing? That's. your report card. That's the scoreboard, right? Good financial results means.

you're winning. Bad financial results. means you're not winning in the current. moment. But for me, like I just want to. love what I do every day. I I I couldn't. agree with you more. I want to wake up. and do what I love every day, which is. why I do this because I get to sit down. with fascinating people, pick people's. minds behind. we each learn from each other. Absolutely. Absolutely. the way, I guarantee I'll learn I'll. leave here today having picked up some. things from you and you'll leave from. here Oh, I'm definitely going to learn. That's the way it works. That's the way. like we should all be students of each. other. Yeah, absolutely. Who's Who's the. randomest person you've learned from? I. wonder like who's the most curious,

random, intriguing person that we. wouldn't expect for you to learn from? Like not like a business mogul or a you. know, someone like that, but someone. you're like, you know what? That person. I didn't expect to learn from them, but. I did. Is there someone like that comes. to mind? I could give you a thousand. examples. I mean, I could tell you when. I used to be part of the ownership group. of the Philadelphia Sixers, I'd walk. through the arena and I would ask lots. of arena workers, "What's going on here. today? You know, what's working? What's. not working?" Like you know, you picked. up things from everybody. I could I. could walk through the street, look at. what someone's wearing and say, "Hey,

where'd you buy that? Is that a good Do. Do you like that? Do you not like that?". Like I'm always asking questions. So, you know, for me, I I mean, that's. pretty random for you to just walk up in. the street and ask somebody, you know, "Where'd you buy that? Why'd you buy it? Do you love that? What do So, I'm always. picking things up. I'm watching the way. trends are changing with people. I'm. Probably the most unique thing about me. is the diversity of friends that I have. and I'm learning from the people around. me every single day. Yeah, I think. that's the only way you understand the. pulse of human behavior, right? It's. like asking questions, watching. patterns. I think pattern watching is is an.

ability, whether it's an algorithm, whether it's the stock market, whether. it's. you know, crypto, whatever it is for. people, watching patterns is such an. unbelievable skill. Would you say that's. a skill that you've honed and developed. and built? Well, I think it's a really. important skill in business cuz I think. it's very predictive of the future. Mhm. Okay? So, the reality is when someone. comes in and I'm interviewing a top. executive for a role in one of our. businesses, and they could seem great. And then I'm. going to go out and I'm never going to. ask anybody for a reference, ever. I've. never asked somebody, "Hey, can you tell.

me who to call?" Like that's the You ask. me for a reference on myself, I'd call. each other's people and say, "Hey, I. gave you as a reference, make sure you. say great things about me." Right? So, the reality is I'll interview somebody, the first thing I do is if I like them, as soon as they leave, I go out and I. start calling people that I knew we had. in common to recognize patterns, okay? Because to me, 50% of the interview and. 50% is um what I learn behind the. scenes, and that's probably the more. important 50% because someone can blow. me away and then, you know, you'll find. out one minute that person sucks, that.

person people don't like working with. them, or you can find out that person. was a little bit understated, but. they're a beast, you know, huge. followership, um they're super smart, they've got an unrelenting work ethic. So, to me, pattern recognition is. everything I use in everything that I. do. By the way, I use pattern. recognition when I go play blackjack. with my friends, you know, there's three. types of cards you're going to get, cards you're either going to be You. know, you're either streaking hot, you're streaking cold, or you're kind of. in between. And, you know, when you're. cold, you should not do what sometimes. I'll do if I'm misbehaving, which is be. aggressive when you're cold because you. had you had a pattern going on. So, you.

got to recognize patterns in whatever. you do. I find it fascinating how super. powerful entrepreneurs hire and fire and. recruit and, you know, reward and retain. people. What have you found when you're. interviewing someone? I feel like you. must have interviewed so many people. over the years for huge positions, small. positions in the beginning. What are you looking for and how were. you finding out, apart from the second. part which I love, calling up people. that you have in common? What are you. asking? What are you looking for and how. are you making sure you find it in that. very date-like format?

So, let me say first of all, and this. will, I think, shock you. I still. probably spend. 10 to 20% of a. 70 to 90-hour work week interviewing. people. Okay? So, I am a beast on finding great. talent for within our companies cuz to. me, you can't win without great talent. So, it is probably. the thing or one of the things that I. spend the most time on is the quest for.

incredible talent. I'm looking for, first, does someone have the subject. matter expertise and the intellect to be. successful in what we want them to do. And then two, do they have the. leadership skills cuz generally I'm. interviewing people that are either. either going to work for me or someone. who's going to work for someone who I. work with. So, let's say the top 50 to. 100 people within our our 18,000 people. So, I'm looking for people that are. going to be real leaders, um that are. going to, you know, share the same. values that we share. I'm looking for.

people that can be with us for a long. period of time. Like I want I don't want. people that want to come in and be with. us for 3 years. I want people that want. to come Like I like people that want to. be with us and build their careers with. us for maybe their entire life. You. know, we want people that are just going. to be, you know, and also people that. are going to like just they're going to. figure out how to build and they're. going to put it on their shoulders and. they're going to be unrelenting. Like. that's my personality. Like there are so. many things that I should not have. succeeded at, but I have because like I. won't quit, okay? And so So, I think. those are some of the things I just. rambled to you that I care about. No, no, no. I I I love those and I guess.

the thing about not quitting is really. interesting, right? Because you've got. this unrelenting, you can see it in the. way you speak in your eyes. Like I've. just spent a few moments with you. We've. never met before today and I can fully. see that it is just at the core of who. you are. And you probably find that you can push. people and they may not be able to go as. far every time because they may not have. that same energy in them. So, how have. you found that balance of like seeing. someone who you know has the potential, you know they have the skills, but it's almost like they're like,

"Michael, I already went seven times.". And you're like, "Yeah, dude, we're. going to go 17 because I know at 17. we're going to get there." Yeah, I think. the people that are in my real inner. circle, you know, I have six key. executives that I work with day in and. day out. The people that run my three. businesses, the the online sports. betting and I gaming business, the. commerce business which is merchandise. and the collectibles business which is. trading cards and memorabilia. These. businesses and then my three corporate. executives, like they have that same. mentality. I won't want to work with. anyone that didn't have that mentality.

of like, you know, cuz they're setting. the culture for the entire 18,000, you. know, employees at Fanatics. And so, to. me, if people don't share our core. values, you know, they don't believe in. what we believe in, it's probably not. going to be a great fit. They could be a. great human being, a great individual, just not be right for us. Mhm. Do you. ever take a break? Have you ever taken a. break? To me, I don't understand. work-life balance. It's just it's not. who I am. So, I'm not going to apologize. for it. And I know I sound like if. people could listen to say like this. guy's, you know, a little bit deranged.

And but I am who I am. I know like I. know what I'm good at. I know what I. like doing. I I mean, it may shock you, but I fully relate to it. Like to me, it's I, you know, I think people I. appreciate I'm trying to get more people. to, you know, try try to get more people. to not look at me like I'm crazy. And. and I would agree with you. I feel. exactly the same way. Like this week, and this is my average normal week, I'll. I have morning hikes where I'm out with. people that I work with, but I love them. and I enjoy their company. They're not. people I have to work with, they're. people I enjoy working with. So, I'm. having a hike meeting in the morning.

which is, you know, 7:30 a.m. Then I'm. at work whether I'm doing this or. whatever I'm up to, whether I'm. recording meditations. So, sometimes I'm. alone in a studio and sometimes I'm with. people. And then I have meetings and. then I've been having dinner meetings, too, and I love it. I wouldn't have it. any other way. I've had the best. interactions. I'm getting to know the. best people. I know their families. I. know that they're getting to know their. kids, their spouses, whatever it is. And. to me it's like this is what I want life. to be. I actually don't look at life as. work and life. Like I don't have that. disconnect. And I actually think that. when you look at life as a disconnect,

that's when you think you're taking away. from the other. I also think if you do. what you love to do, Yeah. it almost breaks those barriers. down. Totally. Yeah, no. So I'm actually. more on your side than people may think. Uh I'm I'm I'm a big fan of having my. daily routines and habits that make me. the best version of myself. Like. obviously meditation, working out. There. are certain non-negotiables. Are there. things in your day that you do that are. your routines that may not be those. things, but things that you're like, you. know, this one thing that I do per day, this makes me feel great. It's probably. centered around work, if I'm going to be.

honest with you. I mean, I I I. I was always pleasantly plump until my. journal came out. So now that my. journal's came out, I've gone from 210. to 160. I'd say working out is more. important to me. You know, when you're. 210, it's harder to work out. When. you're 160, it's much easier to work. out. So you live here in the top of. Runyon, and you know, for me, you know, kind of hiking to the top of Runyon, you. know, I've done that once already this. week. I'm going to do it again tomorrow. Like I love doing it. Like it's a it's a. blast for me. Working out's actually. something that is becoming good for me.

because it's the one thing that lets me. get a little bit of a mental break. Putting my phone down sometimes, I can. be so addicted to my phone. It's just. like I just need like sometimes at. dinner when, you know, my family has. dinner, just like put my phone down for. 20 minutes. That's a good thing. So I'd. say things that have helped me of late. have been, you know, getting those three. to four workouts in per week because it. does give me some mental clarity. I'd. say putting my phone down 20 or 30. minutes a day, when I'm just not going. to look at it and say, "Okay, like give. me a a break." Cuz I think you could.

just become so obsessed that it's almost. it's bad for you and then you become. less effective. Yeah. Um probably the biggest routine I have. if we say like let's keep it real, it's. going to be the people that I I work. closely with it's talking to them all. the time. I'm always just like peeling. the layers back on what we're doing. So. like any of my, you know, top leaders. I'm on the phone with, on Zoom's with, meeting with in person all the time. because that's the way we're just like. building the best business. Yeah, absolutely. And I I I I do believe that. it's it's what it takes for the level of.

success that you've achieved. I wonder, you know, if you if you Google your net. worth, it says 11 billion. Could be. more, probably is. How do you define how. much you're worth? I don't. I'll tell. you a story I probably shouldn't say. God this blowing somebody up I shouldn't. blow up but but like Forbes reached out. and they said, "Hey, we want to put you. on the cover of Forbes um for the Forbes. 400." I'm like, "No, I don't want to be. known for my net worth. I want to be. known for building a great company." By. the way, there's so many things with. that company that we suck at that we. need to be better at. Like I want to be. like the way I look at it is I'm a big. startup and I want to make sure that I'm.

always fighting to be better in. everything we do and in everything we do. I want to build what what we make better. for the fan and we have so much to do to. accomplish that. So I don't want to be. known about money. I don't want to be. known I want to be known about making. the world a better place or making my. company better. Those are honestly, you. know, the two things I'm maniacally. focused on. Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. I I. genuinely do and and I think. who cares like I'm not in a competition. for like totally it's irrelevant. Like. my life is not changing financially. based on anything that happens going. forward. You know, I'm I'm fortunate. that I've I'm in a nice position today.

So like to me the thing that gets me. most exciting is winning in business cuz. that's my sport. That's what I'm good at. and so I look at each business and I. look at not all the things we do right I. look at all the things we do wrong and. all the things we can be better at. And. so I'm always saying how can we improve. in everything we do because guess what? There are a lot of things we need to be. a lot better at and that's what I'm. focused on. And then, you know, up front. you talked about kind of giving back is. interesting. I never ever. cared about making a difference in the. world until I had an event in in 2017.

that that changed my perspective. Before. that, I would just always write checks. You came and said, "Hey, I'm doing this. Hey, let me give you a check to shut you. up as quickly as I could because I. didn't care. I just wanted to focus on. work." And then my eyes got open, which. is what people always say like, "Hey, should I be behind this?" I said, "Do. what's authentic. Do what's real." And. you know, for me, that's kind of how my. life is kind of, you know, evolved. Yeah, and why was it I believe it was. Meek Mill who introduced you to criminal. justice? it. I mean, everyone knows the story at this. point. You know, you know, Meek got you.

know, sent to prison for two to four. years for popping a wheelie on a. motorcycle. He had the smartest thing he. did for both of us was say, "Hey, can. you come to court with me that day? I. want you to see what happens when a. black person goes to court." I didn't. like even understand what he was saying. And then, you know, I watched him get. sent to prison for two to four years for. not committing a crime for popping a. wheelie on a motorcycle. Like, that was. the most uncomfortable. thing that's ever happened to my body. cuz it was like, I'm used to being in. control. I'm a strong business leader. I'm used to leading. And now I had a. judge who sent him to prison for two to. four years for not committing a crime.

for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle. And it was like the most out-of-body. experience I've ever had. And so, once. he ultimately got out of prison and we. started the Reform Alliance, you know, for me, you know, I learned a really. valuable lesson because a lot of people. told me, "Don't get involved with this. Don't get involved with him. You're. going to hurt your business. You're. going to hurt the Sixers." And I just. went with my instincts, which is like, this is my brother and like, he needs. help. And by the way, Jay-Z and Desiree. Perez from from Roc Nation stepped up in. a huge way. Like, you know, it was it. was kind of us collectively. But like, I've had a couple experiences in the. last four or five years where we've done.

things where people told us would be bad. for business, bad for us, and we didn't. care. We did what we thought was the. right thing. And you always get paid. back in karma. Like, that is something. I've learned in the last five years. Probably the biggest thing I've learned. in the last five years. You know, don't. worry about what people tell you is. going to be that the right outcome. You. do what you think is right. If you do. what's right, you know, it generally. works out. Yeah, I know. And and I'm glad you. repeat that story. There may be some of. our audience who may or may not be. aware. So thank you for sharing that but. and I wanted them to hear it from you. because it it is it's so interesting.

when something becomes so personal when. it happens to someone that's so close to. you. The issue almost becomes so much. more relatable and easy to access. For. you what have been some of the most like. I loved what you said like the moment. you walked in here and I was telling you. how much. I've appreciated the impact work you're. doing and you're like we're not doing it. fast enough. We're not there's more to. do, you know. And I and I love that it. like that's exactly the energy you need. to have. So walk me through the wins. that have been there that have shown you. that you're doing the right thing and. then walk me through what are the issues. that you're still trying to solve and.

figure out. Well, look the interesting thing was. when Meek got sent to prison. in November 2017. just about everybody I knew said do not. get involved in this this will reflect. poorly on the Sixers. This will reflect. poorly on Fanatics. Less people will buy. tickets and and they're going to see you. helping a criminal. And so Desiree Perez. from Roc Nation, myself, you know, we. spent a lot of the next six months, you. know, working every day to get him out. of prison. And once we got him out of.

prison, you know, Meek said to me and I. said to Meek like look this is destiny. You got sent to prison because you were. the one anointed to help fix the system. And I would if you would have asked me. before November 12th, 2017 when he got. sent to prison, if you would have said. to me what do I care about from a. charity perspective? It was writing checks to get people out. of my office as quickly as possible. I. did not care about any issues. But what. Meek used to always say to me, Michael, this is a normal day for black America. And so, you know, that he had been sent.

to prison for a technical probation. violation. It was easy for us to say we. have to change the probation and parole. system. That's what we set out to do. The interesting thing was uh when we. finally decided to do this which was I. guess. finally when we did it immediately. I. was trying to figure out how to come up. with a goal cuz to me you have to come. up with big bold goals. And this this. speaks to entrepreneurialism and not. taking a kind of charitable approach to. things. I asked a friend of mine who I don't. want to name, but someone I have huge. respect for. I said, you know, how many. people should we try to get out of. probation for all?

They said, "Well, how many people in the. system?" I said, "4 and 1/2 million.". They said, "Well, go with 10,000. That's. a really safe number.". I said, "10,000? Let's go for a. million." So, we're in this less than 5. years, we've passed 17 bills. in 11 states and created a pathway for. 700,000 people to get off of probation. and parole who shouldn't be on it. And. by the way, um there were 4 and 1/2. million people on probation and parole. when we started. There's 3.8 million. people today. What's proven, this really. important to understand, if you keep. someone on probation or parole too long,

you entrap them in the criminal justice. system, and then what you do is you. actually create a less safe outcome for. neighborhoods and for environments. versus if people serve their time, have. their appropriate amount of. rehabilitation, you know, they're on. probation and parole for the right. amount of time, then they're going to go. out and they're going to make, you know, a positive impact on the world. So, me. could be on probation between the time. served and time left, 18 years. Now in. California where we're doing this today, the governor signed it in one of the. first bills that we did with the with. Gavin Newsom, which was amazing, is a.

1-year cap on misdemeanor and a 2-year. cap on felonies. And that was like. breakthrough legislation that we worked. on together, you know, with many people. to bring together to make that happen in. the state of California, which is one of. the best things we've done at the Reform. Alliance. So, my point is like That's. huge. We turned this negative into a. positive. We then came up with a really. bold goal that people thought we were. nuts. When I told people million people. like everyone looked at me like I have. seven heads, but I'm like, what's the. worst that happens? Like, so we get. 300,000 people, 400,000 people, I'll. still think we won. I don't care. You. want to say we failed cuz we didn't get.

the million? And by the way, now we're. going to we're going to surpass the. million, I think. Wow, that's. incredible. And you're so right, most of. us when we set a bold goal, whether it's. to make an impact or whether it's in. business, we're actually just worrying. about what everyone will think if we. don't hit that goal. to give you a great example. So, it. um today at Fanatics, um you know, we. built a pretty big business in our. commerce space, which is merchandise. That's where I started. That's where a. lot of people know us from. By the way, we still have so much to do to be. better, so many things to improve the. consumer experience, to innovate more.

product. We're a leader in that. business. In the collectibles business, we're a real leader today. In the online. sports betting I gaming business, we're. just starting, okay? We're going to be. um Fanatics Sportsbook just launched. earlier this year. We'll be basically in. just about every legal state by the end. of this year under the Fanatics brand. with with one wallet. I woke up and our. guys we talked about being number three. Like, you know, hey, FanDuel's number. one, DraftKings number two, uh we're. number three. And, you know, sorry, we we aspire to be. number three. Today, we're like number. eight. We're just starting. And, I woke.

up about 3 weeks ago and I called our. CEO Matt King, who's amazing. I said, "Matt, like we got Our goal is to be. number one. By the way, maybe we'll. accomplish it, maybe we won't. Maybe we. won't even be successful at all. Like, the jury's out. We're investing a. billion and a half dollars to try to be. the top player, okay? But, like I don't. want to play for number three. Number. three is a loser. I want to play for. number one. And, so many people going to. say to me So many people listening to. this would be like, 'Wait, you want me. number one to FanDuel and DraftKings in. online sports betting I gaming?' I'm. declaring right now, it's the first time. I've publicly said this, I want to be. number one. I've no idea whether I have.

any chance of that accomplishing. But, I. can tell you what, I'm not waking up to. try to be number three. That's a loser. And, that's what's got you here. So, you. feel convinced that that's what it was. What was the Do you remember the first. big goal you ever set? I do. Yeah. In. 2009, I made a goal I said to all of our uh. team, I said that I want to build We. were $250 million in revenue 2010. I said, "One day, we could be a billion. dollars in revenue." That division is $6. billion today, okay? I said, "One day, we could be a billion dollars, okay?".

Then, 4 years later, we said, "One day, we could be $5 billion, okay?" And, we're only just trying to come up with. goals for just like to try to measure, you know, success or failure. But I love. come up with bold goals and I don't care. whether I accomplish them or fail. I. care about coming up with bold goals to. work against and then making huge. progress against them whether I. accomplish them or not. Yeah, the point is you're more likely to. challenge yourself enough to come up. with better strategies, more products, better customer service. Like you. actually just going to improve. drastically towards that level.

set goals that are easy to accomplish, then you're actually saying you want to. fail. Yeah. To start with. If you come up with. bold goals, and by it's easier Look, I. know people are going to say, "I'm an. owner. It's easier to say that as an. owner, okay?" And maybe sometimes you. just need to set goals up there you say. to yourself cuz you don't want to tell. your boss that goal was, okay? Or you. tell your boss, "Here's the budgeting. goal I'm giving you, but now let me tell. you the real goal that I have, okay?". And so, I like rallying people against. big, audacious, you know, hard to. achieve goals because I think you're. just going to accomplish more. Yeah,

absolutely. How does How does this. energy convert over to Michael's love. life? Like how does this kind of How. does How does Michael in love change. from Michael in business? to ask Camille that. I think what Camille would say is she's. incredibly supportive of what I do. She. knows this is what I love doing. You. know, she's the most incredible mother. on the planet. We have So, I have a. 17-year-old daughter then I have a. 3-year-old and 1-year-old with Camille. You know, she puts as much energy as I. put into work, she puts into being a mom. and I think that's what makes us great. together. Would I say that, you know, I'm always the most valuable person? No.

Does she want to, you know, kill me. multiple times a week? Probably yes. But. she also knows this is what makes me me. and what I love to do and, you know, she. loves being the greatest mom in the. world. We have a great relationship, but, you know, would you call my. personal life or our personal life. perfect? Definitely not cuz I work like. an animal. No, of course not. Of course not. No No. one has the perfect personal or. professional life. But did you. The The reason why I ask is, you know, it's really interesting. I I always feel. like, you know, so much can be solved at. the point of connection. What I mean by. that is. I, you know, my wife's a busy person.

and a busy person, but. I've, you know, I was I was saying to. some of my team the other day, I'm. really grateful that my wife has never. said to me in the last 10 years that. we've been together, "You don't spend. enough time with me." Uh, it's because. she knows who I am, she understands how. I work, she knows I make time, I am. present when I'm there, but she gets me. Like she she really gets me and she got. me when we got together. Yes, I was very. not successful when we met, but she gets. me and she's seen that energy grow and. so she loves the time. And by the way, I. don't say the same to her either. She. never hears from me like, "You don't.

spend enough time with me or you're not. around." If she's busy and she has to. move. Did you know that when you met Camille? How did you set that up? How did that. become real? How did you get to know you. that well? Because I feel like for a lot. of people, the way you work, the way I. work, the way certain people work, it. would be unbearable and it would be a. deal-breaker, but then it's really hard. to also have an amazing life and and. build everything you want to build, right? It's So, how how did you I'm just. intrigued as to how you had that. conversation early days. Yeah, I'm not sure if we had the. conversation. Kind of just grew into.

what it is. I think the same thing for. Camille or my older daughter Kylie, they. would both say they wish that I were. more available, more present, but they. also respect and learn from my work. ethic and what I do. And I think, you. know, kind of works itself out in the. end, but, you know, different than you, um, I do hear from both Camille and. Kylie, you know, "You don't have enough. time for me. You're not available. enough." And sometimes that's a really. good part of it, like, "Okay, you know, put your phone down and turn the ringer.

off for a half an hour. You know, you. don't always need to grab every call.". You know, what what what my older. daughter would always say to me, Kylie, is like, "Dad, it's always somebody. important. I'm your oldest daughter.". And Camille would say to me, "You know, it's me. Like, just let it go for a. little bit." So, they actually help me, whatever little balance I have, I think. I get from Camille and Kylie. I loved. what you said, like, you know, sometimes they say I need more time, but. they also respect me. How do you. reconcile that kind of dad guilt that. could come with that or and a lot of I'm. not a father yet, but a lot of my.

friends who are. they'll say it's so painful watching. your little girl my my friends who have. little girls will say it's so painful. watching your little girl say Daddy just. stay at home with me today, right? Like. how are you how do you reconcile like. this is good for them to see me work. hard and I know when to like put my. phone down, but how do you how do you. make sense with that? Yeah, well the good thing is my. three-year-old and one-year-old have. grown up with me like this so and so did. Kylie by the way. So they've all seen. that work ethic. Look, Kylie is everyone. knows my 17-year-old is with me, you. know, all the time. She travels with me. all the time. She's actually on a plane.

right now. She's about to land here in a. few hours. So, you know, she you know, she's with me a lot. She's got a great, you know, Kylie and Camille have a great. relationship and they may have a support. group, you know, together for the two of. them against me. Um every family's. different. Every person's different and. everyone needs to do what works for them. and I think I do what works for me and. they do what works for them and I think. they appreciate it. I also know to be. there when it really matters. And so for. me, Kylie went through an experience. earlier this year and she called me and. it had to do with college. She's like. cursing me out. She's like like I need. you to help me figure this out right now.

and it's about like get you get cuz. Kylie's much smarter than me, but she's. not like, you know, she goes to the. toughest school in Philadelphia and she. like she wanted like some help with. certain things and like I had to call. around and figure out how how to do that. and learn pull the layers back and. ultimately figure out together. So like. when it really matters like I'm always. there and I'm good at figuring out what. matters and what doesn't. And so I think. that could be a superpower I have which. is how to prioritize. I am good at. figuring out when I'm I really need it, when do I need to like, you know, lock. in and focus. It could be locking in and. focusing on a really important business. deal or it could be locking in and. focusing on a really important moment.

for Camille or for Kylie. Yeah. What. what what your daughters do for you my. sister does for me. She'll always be. like stop being Jay Shetty, just be my. brother. Like, you know, it's like that. feeling of like stop giving me that. advice. Just be my brother and like give. me a hug. Yeah, I get I get that from both of them. all the time. My three-year-old Rome. will I'm sure be giving me that like. within a year or two. And it's the best feeling, right? It's. such a it's such a beautiful feeling cuz. you know someone loves you and wants you. to just be there for them. It's getting those moments which you can. really appreciate. So, you know, I try. try to get them when I can. Yeah, and. Michael, that's what I'm trying to do on. this podcast here, you know, I don't.

have a I don't think there is an ideal. way to live. I don't think there is a. perfect way to approach your problems. I. think that what I like to do is I like. to introduce people. This is kind of my. whole hypothesis in life. If I can. introduce people to as many diverse. people as possible. that have all in their own way found. purpose, impact, and success, then people actually have a chance of. saying, "I like what they're saying. I'm. going to run with that." Or actually, you know what, I never thought about it.

like that because I find when I was. growing up, we were all exposed to the. same set of people and the same set of. ideas and it was so hard to break that. and it was only for me, obviously, which. is my personal journey, when I met a. monk at 18, I didn't know what monks. were. I didn't care what monks were. I. had no interest in anything spiritual. If I'd never met a monk, I would never. have gone down the path of life I did. And so, I'm always asking people, "Who's. your monk?" And for some people, their. monk will be you and what I mean by that. is they're going to get introduced to. you and go, "Yeah, that's that's how I. want to live my life. That that.

resonates with me." Does that make. sense? It makes complete sense. I'm a huge. believer in it and I have Look, if you'd. say what's the most unique thing about. me, it's probably the diversification of. the people around me and I think I've. built that because it's right for me. because I'm learning from all these. people around me. And so, I've got this. person actually, it's a a person who. owns a local hobby shop and he keeps uh. sending me these really long text. messages and I actually keep meaning to. send him back a voice note just to say, "Hey, man, I actually appreciate your. input, but I don't I barely read." Like.

I'm not that literate. Like you're. you're laughing. I'm dead serious. Like. I haven't read a book since 9th grade. The last book I read was in 9th grade. I. read The Swoosh, the story about the. unauthorized story about Phil Knight. So, last time I read a book, okay? So, I'm not a good reader. I'm pretty. dyslexic, okay? So, like the way I learn. is by like quick conversations. You. know, you want me to read something, send me three lines and I'm actually. going to read it. You send me three. paragraphs, I'm already I'm tuned out. before I start. Um so, it's like that's. what I'm saying, we all got to learn. from each other what works for each. other and that's, you know, what makes. me me. Absolutely. Michael, you've been.

amazing. We end every episode with a. final five. You'll like this. Each. question has to be answered in one word. to one sentence maximum. So, it goes. aligned with what you just said. So, Michael Rubin, these are your final. five. Question one is, what is the best. entrepreneurship advice you've ever. heard or received? Don't be afraid to fail. Because? Cuz if. you're afraid to fail, you're never. going to take the shot. Like how do you. want to be an entrepreneur? You're. sitting there and you're trying to. figure out like should I do this or not? Like you got to go for it. Second. question, what is the worst.

entrepreneurship advice you've ever. heard or received? Do it for the money. Mm. All right, question number three. What's something you're currently trying. to learn, maybe in business or in life, something you're working on? How to do what's best for the consumer. in everything that we do. Mm. Like just. complete consumer focus. I didn't grow. up as a complete consumer person, so I. think there's things if I look at parts. of Fanax where we're not good enough, we. haven't been good enough. I'd say it's. an obsession with the consumer. Yeah. That's what I always loved about I still. love it today. Like when I grew up, I. remember the first time my parents took.

me to Disney World. and I was just like everything about. this place is like perfectly organized. for me to have the best time of my life. Yeah. And it's it's insane how much. detail you can put into someone's. experience. Yeah, yeah. I think we we got our. business model right. Everything I do. has to be about the consumer. To win in. a consumer business, it has to be about. consumer first in everything you do. That's something that I've that I'm. really It's the biggest thing I'm. focused on right now. Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful. All. right, question number four. How would.

you define. your current purpose with your impact. work? Um real change. Like to make real. change, not like Like so many people who. make impact work, they write First of. all, writing a check is easy, okay? If. you have money writing a check is easy. Like don't think cuz you give money away. that you're making a difference. Like go. do the work, okay? But make it real. change. Like measure the results. Treat. it like a business, not like, you know, a charity. Like we don't want to run the. Reform Alliance like a charity. We want. to run it like a business. We want. business results. Beautiful. Uh fifth. and final question. We ask this to every.

guest who's ever been on the show. If. you could create one law that everyone. in the world had to follow, what would. it be? Can't be president after 65. I. want the president of the United States. to be an animal from a work ethic. perspective. I want them to be on their. A game. I want to make sure that they're. maniacal about the country the way I'm. maniacal about my business. One law to. go in place, Max, you can't be elected. to become president after 65 years old. Michael Rubin everyone. If you've been. listening and watching, make sure that. you cut the clips for TikTok and. Instagram that related to you. Insights. that you loved, share them. I love.

knowing what are the lessons you're. taking away. What are you practicing? What are you implementing and putting. into your life? I think everyone just. got the best pep talk that they need for. right now in their life. This is going. to get you to those big goals. Listen to. this episode. Share it with your. friends. Share it with your family. I'm. sure someone just needs a train to come. run through their mind and break through. all of the barriers that they've set up. I think Michael's that train. Uh. Michael, thank you so much. the way, disagree with us. Tell me what. you disagree with. Tell me what you. don't agree with. By the way, I love I. love when you disagree with me, too. Yeah, yeah, totally. Of course. If you. disagree with us, you can tell us, too.

You do that anyway. I don't need to ask. for that. Hey, thanks for having me. It was a. blast. Thank you, Michael. Such a blast. I appreciate you, man. And thank you for. being so What I appreciate about you is. your clarity, your commitment to that clarity, and. that you're still open and available to. learn. I think that curiosity, that's. what I see in you. It's like complete. clarity, complete commitment to who you. are, and then still being curious. That's a deadly combination. So, thank. Thank you. Well well said. And we try to. preach it and do it every day. Thank. you, man. Thank you. If you love this. episode, you'll love my interview with.

Kobe Bryant on how to be strategic and. obsessive to find your purpose. Our. children have become less imaginative. about how to problem solve, and parents. and coaches have become more directive. in trying to tell them how to behave. versus teaching them how to behave.