INSTANTLY BOOST Energy & Focus To Become A PRODUCTIVITY MASTER | Andrew Huberman & Jay Shetty

I'm so grateful that you come back every. single week to listen, learn, and grow. And you know that the podcast for me is. just an opportunity to reach out to. people that I'm inspired by, people that. I feel are changing the world, people. that I feel have amazing insights that I. can learn from and want to share with. you. And today's guest is someone that. I've been connected with for a while, but I'm so excited to finally have him. in the studio because not only is his. insights having a huge impact on how we. live, how we think, uh just the energy.

that I felt from him in the first couple. of moments that I've met him, I can. already tell that it's all in his heart, too. And so, to meet someone who's super. strategic, super scientific, has an. incredible mind, but has a beautiful. heart in person, that's my kind of. person. And today's guest is none other. than Andrew Huberman. He's a. neuroscientist and tenured professor in. the Department of Neurobiology at the. Stanford University School of Medicine. He has made numerous significant. contributions to the fields of brain. development, brain function, and.

neuroplasticity, which is the ability of. our nervous system to rewire and learn. new behaviors, skills, and cognitive. functioning. He also is a McKnight. Foundation and Pew Foundation fellow, and was awarded the Cogan Award in 2017. Work from the Huberman Laboratory at. Stanford School of Medicine has been. published in top journals, including. Nature, Science, and Cell, and has been. featured in Time, BBC, Scientific. American, Discover, and other top media.

outlets. In 2021, Dr. Huberman launched. the Huberman Lab Podcast, which I'm a. huge fan of, and I know you are, too. The podcast is frequently ranked in the. top 25 of all podcasts globally, and is. often ranked as the number one in the. categories of science, education, health, and fitness. Please welcome my. new friend and someone that I'm a huge. fan of and admire, Andrew Huberman. Andrew, thank you for doing this. Thank you for being here. And honestly, thank you for what you do in the world.

I think it's. been brilliant to see someone bring so. much heart into science and science into. heart. And I know that people who listen. to you and hear from you and communicate. with you and even I really meant the few. moments we just spent right now, I I. love that combination. And. I wonder how you. whether you even see it that way, whether you don't, but I'm fascinated by. is that how you've always lived? Have. you been fascinated by the heart and.

science for a while? First of all, I just want to say thank. you for having me here. We've known each. other through some mutual contacts for a. while and it it's a delight to be here. I'm an admirer and a fan of all you do. and the way you approach it. So, heartfelt thanks for for having me here. Um in terms of. you know, how things have evolved to to. where they are now, you know, I don't have much of a mission. statement, but I suppose if I had to. pick one, it's to share the the beauty. and the utility of biology. Since I was.

very young, I've been obsessed with. learning and I've also had a compulsion. to share what I've learned, especially. when I think that the information can be. of use to people. So, the little 6- and. 8-year-old and 10-year-old version of me. wouldn't shut up. I was just constantly. talking about all the stuff I'd been. reading about on the weekends. And over. time, it just made sense to become an academic. for that reason. And then nowadays with. the advent of podcasting, I have this. wonderful opportunity to share things. that I think are useful. In terms of the.

heart and the mind, you know, I I. can only frame it by saying that, you. know, our nervous system is our brain, our spinal cord, but of course all their. connections with the organs of the body. and back again. And so, we really can't. divorce any of the organs of the body. from our thinking and feeling and action. and vice versa, as you very well know. And then from a more personal. standpoint, you know, I had the great. benefit of training with mentors in. science who really lived and breathed. their science, but also had a deep sense.

of humanity. Each one of them had it had. an eye or an ear toward um things that. were relevant to them. In one case, uh. one with a particular interest in mental. health and the struggles around mental. health and mental illness. Um the other. uh. just a. person who just loved animals and the. natural kingdom. And and then my other. advisor was a very strong advocate for. scientists of all kinds and backgrounds. And so, I was so blessed to be weaned by. people who really instilled in me a love.

and a desire for learning and sharing. and doing research, but also understood. that how one shows up to the. conversation means everything. And so, you know, I just feel very blessed to. have had that and I'm just trying to do. right by by them. I love hearing that. Like, I had no idea. that that was a part of how you were. mentored and and guided and. I mean, I'm sure they feel very uh proud. in seeing that you continue on and pass. that legacy on and so beautifully, but.

I think what I find even more intriguing. about that is so many of our early. learning experiences. are not necessarily that way. And you. said that you loved learning and you. love sharing. I think [snorts] most people that I know. or at least that I talk to or I hear. from in comments or podcasts would say. school was not an exciting place for. them. Maybe they went to college or. didn't go to college, but they. necessarily didn't have a positive. experience. Maybe it was filled with. fear or doubt or judgment or criticism.

or maybe there was a lack of confidence. That could have been not only from. teachers and the school system, it could. have been from friends or bullies or or. people in that environment. So, what I'm. fascinated by is our relationship with. learning. Because when I look at my relationship. with learning, too, I. remember starting off having that buzz. and spark. Then almost feeling like I was forced to. believe there are only certain ways you.

could learn. I grew up believing I didn't like. reading because we were only encouraged. to read fiction books. And even till. this day, I don't like reading fiction. books. I have no interest in reading. fiction books. I love reading. nonfiction. And today I can read. nonfiction books every day, every week, every month, every year, and I'm fully. engrossed and immersed. That's why I'm. excited for your book one day. Uh and I think that. is something that I learned that I do. love reading. I do love learning, but I. was never introduced to that form until.

my father gave me a biography when I was. 14 years old. And so, how do you think our relationship with. learning has been formed over time, hearing from your own as well? I think it was the great physicist Max. Delbruck who said that, you know, when. teaching, assume zero knowledge and. infinite intelligence. I try and keep. that in mind. I think that we are all. innate learners by virtue of the fact. that this thing, this nervous system as. it's called, is really a map of our. experience. And it's there to form.

itself. It's unusual among the organs in. that it shapes itself, right? Unlike the. kidney or the liver, this doesn't. constantly update its own form and. function the same way. The nervous. system is there essentially to educate. itself so that it can operate better in. a given environment. And once one. understands that, you start to realize. that the forms of learning are many. So, for instance, you know, math, or I suppose in in the. UK it's maths. [laughter]. Well. Um. Wow, well remembered. Yeah, yeah.

But maths, you know, could be learned by. way of of of different using different. types of examples, right? Movement of. trains or bartering systems or on paper, just simple long division and. multiplication. But in the end, what. you're really trying to find, anytime. you're teaching or learning, is you're. trying to find um a universal algorithm. of how the brain works. And what I mean. by that is that, you know, all these. nerve cells, they only can communicate. through chemicals and electricity. You. know, it's really just meat in there, uh. believe it or not. Um but, there are. algorithms that are universal. So,

whether or not one learns better. verbally or visually, or whether one has. a propensity for math or for verbal. subjects, what is true for all of us is. that the brain is there always asking. questions and trying to make predictions. about its environment. And I think what. happens is when we're children, we are learning passively all the time. As we get older, and especially as we. get to our mid and late 20s, it takes an. immense amount of focus and energy in. order to learn. But, of course, the. nervous system can still shape itself.

well into adulthood, almost certainly for the entire. lifespan. But, that focus and energy. feels almost like an agitation. And I. think that as children, we don't. necessarily experience that agitation. because we can. for better or for worse, we can. experience and change passively. Neuroplasticity just happens by way of. pure experience. As we get older, mid-20s, early 30s, and. so on, that. that threshold of agitation for people. feels um like it's something to back. away from. But, if we can learn to.

approach that and understand that that. agitation is actually the circulation of. chemicals, which is the the brain and. nervous system telling itself, "Aha, now. I need to pay attention and change," we. can start to actually modify the way. that system works. So, that's a bit of a. convoluted answer to your question, but. I think that at the heart of our nervous. system is this ability, these algorithms. by which it can change its themselves. And it's on all of us to understand that. that bit of agitation and discomfort. need not be interpreted as discomfort.

That's the edge where learning is. beginning. So, confusion, being. perplexed, um feeling somewhat. overwhelmed by the amount of. information. That's actually the stir of. chemicals that are queuing the nervous. system to change because if it can do. something easily, there's no reason for. the nervous system to change. Now, in. terms of different styles of teaching. and learning, I think that many of us. experience that agitation early on and. we, for reasons that are understandable, we backed away from learning anymore. So, for instance, I'm musically I can't.

I'm musically deficient. I love music, but I can't play music to save my life. And I think that's entirely because, as. as a kid, every time I would try and. play music, it just sounded terrible. Everyone cringed, the dogs dogs. literally howled. So, I stopped, right? But knowing what I know now, that would. be the cue to that the agitation, the. stress, the embarrassment is actually. the cue to the nervous system that it's. about to rewire itself. So, I think if. people just understood that, um, children and adults would, uh, lean into.

learning, um, more regularly and hopefully with more. ease overall. Yeah, definitely. I mean, even now when. what sparks from that answer, which I. actually really appreciated, is the idea that as we get older, as you. said, it has to become more conscious. It It has that tension. It's almost like you have to. start figuring out how you learn base. best and how you process ideas. So, for. me, I know that I love to first dive.

deep and immerse myself in something. And then I like to create a structured. approach to get there if I enjoy it. So, if I want to learn a new skill, I'll get. obsessed with it for a weekend. I'll go. on the course, I'll read the book, I'll. watch every video. I I just want to dive. in to really see if I genuinely care or. whether it's me thinking I care and to. try and separate that ego and that true. desire, for me at least. And if I do a weekend of something and I. realize, "Oh, my ego liked that, but I.

didn't really like that. I'm going to. step away. Or actually, wow, this is. fascinating. Then I'll go and build a. step-by-step plan with small steps and. incremental steps. That I've learned. over a long time of learning different. things. How can people think about the best way. they can learn? What are different. styles? What are different methods that. you think people can think if someone's. listening right now and they're like, "Andrew, well, I want to learn a new. instrument. Or I want to learn a new. language. Or maybe it's I want to learn.

how to start a podcast. Or I want to. learn how to play a sport. Or whatever. it may be." How can someone start. thinking about how they should approach. learning? Terrific question. And fortunately, nowadays, we can look to studies done in. humans that define some very key. principles. The first principle is that. the whole process of neuroplasticity and. learning is really a two-stage process. First, there must be focus and. alertness. That focus and alertness is associated. with the release of neurochemicals,

so-called neuromodulators, things like. acetylcholine in particular, uh which. sort of acts as a highlighter pen, if. you will, for certain connections in the. brain to later be reinforced. And the. neurochemical adrenaline, which is also. called epinephrine, also depending on if. you're in the UK or elsewhere. [laughter]. A long interesting story, not for this. time, about why it has multiple names. Epinephrine, also called adrenaline, is associated. with an increase in kind of agitation. and alertness. Acetylcholine, think of. it as kind of a spotlighter or a. highlighter pen for certain connections.

in the brain. So, you need alertness and focus. And. then the second stage is that it is only. during periods of deep rest, in. particular sleep and something that I. call non-sleep deep rest, which I've. given an acronym, cuz scientists like. acronyms, NSDR, non-sleep deep rest. Things like yoga nidra, things like. shallow naps, things like forms of. meditation that don't involve a lot of. focused concentration. You're a far more. the experienced meditator than I, so I'm. outside my wheelhouse when talking about. meditation. But, it is only.

periods of intense focus and alertness. followed by periods of deep rest that. allow the nervous system to change. And. there is an abundance of evidence for. that. So, that's the first thing to. understand. The brain actually re-wires. during deep sleep and rest because. during deep sleep and rest, naps, yoga. nidra, deep sleep, there's a replay of. the very same cells in the brain that. were active during learning, often times. in reverse for reasons that are still. not understood, but at a much higher. repetition rate. So, you're actually. getting repetitions while you sleep.

This is why one will strain to learn a. language or a motor skill or maths or. something like that over and over and. over, it doesn't happen, you take a. couple of nights sleep, take a break. from it, and all of a sudden it's there. It's because it happens in rest. Now, there's some other things that one can. do to enhance this process further that. are arrived to us from good data. First of all, there's a so-called. ultradian rhythm, which is the 90-minute. cycles during which we can focus pretty. well for a a duration of about 90. minutes, of course flickering in and out.

of focus. Nobody really focuses for 90. minutes straight unless they've built up. that capacity or they are very. interested in what they're learning, right? They're just wrapped with. attention. Usually people flicker in and. out. And of course nowadays there's a. lot of literature and ideas about ways. to maintain focus. Put the phone away, limit noise, some people like background. noise, some people like music, some. don't. It's very contextual, highly. individualized. But 90 minutes is sort of the the the. batch of time that the brain can focus. really hard on one thing before it needs. a true rest of of an hour or two before.

you can go back to learning or working. very hard. The other thing is that um. there's some very interesting data. showing that shallow naps or NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, done within 4 hours. of one of these 90-minute learning bouts. can be very beneficial for accelerating. learning. And then there are these. incredible data on so-called gap. effects. So, there've have been studies. now of skills that are physical skills, mental skills where people will for. instance try to learn scales on the. piano or a math problem or a spatial.

problem or a physical skill and then at. random. every so often a buzzer will go off and. the person will just be told to do. nothing. Sit there eyes closed or eyes. open and do nothing. Just stop the. learning process for about 10 seconds. and then return to doing what they're. doing. These are these little micro. rests. Turns out that during those micro. rests the hippocampus of brain areas you. know that's associated with learning and. memory and the neocortex also associated. with learning and memory. undergoes replay of the thing that the. individual is trying to learn at 20.

times the speed. also in reverse just as in sleep and. that has can lead and has been shown to. lead to accelerations in learning. So. there are these ways I wouldn't even. think of them as hacks because the word. hack is a little tricky because when I. think of the word hack it seems like. doing something with an object or a tool. that wasn't designed for that purpose, right? Um the nervous system already. harbors these mechanisms and one can. access them through these little micro. rests. So whether or not you're a child. or an adult every so often when trying. to learn something just pause for 10.

seconds or so. Do your best to just. clear your mind. Of course it's very. hard to clear the mind but um. do your best to clear your mind and then. go back to the learning task as as it. were and that has been shown to very. much to significantly accelerate the. learning process and the retention of. newly learned information. And then the. last thing you touched on earlier which. is this notion of incremental learning. You said you like to throw yourself into. something as kind of a litmus test of. whether or not you enjoy it or not. Turns out that uh from beautiful work. done by my colleague at Stanford School.

of Medicine Eric Knudsen has shown. that yes it's true that early in. development in humans this would be up. until the mid 20s we can learn things in. larger batches and much more easily than. we can later in life. However, if one. batches that work into smaller. increments. and for so for instance deciding maybe. set a timer turning the phone off. otherwise and saying I'm going to spend. 3 minutes just 3 minutes in trying to. intensely learn this thing even if I. feel like I'm failing.

If one does that repeatedly. those little increments of learning can. lead to an outsized amount of learning. overall. And so the nervous system loves. incremental learning. It loves to batch. things into focused little bouts. And. you know if that's already the the tools. that you've built up which it sounds. like you have wonderful but if somebody. is out there trying you know struggling. to learn really trying to break things. down into very brief periods of intense. focus. That is the cue by which during. sleep the nervous system will change. itself. And this has been shown over and.

over and over again even in very late. life. uh individuals and people in their you. know we like to think life could go on. further than this but people in their. 80s and 90s still have neural. plasticity. There's even evidence that. new neurons can be produced in the. hippocampus of people in their late 80s. and 90s. So the capacity is there. This is why I love what you do because. you would never. consider that the answer to learning is. deep rest or sleep. Provided the focus comes first. yeah of course the focus and the. attention as you.

But of course sleep deprivation makes it. very hard to learn. And there's also. something else that important that. happens in sleep. Nowadays we I think. most people thanks to the beautiful work. of Matthew Walker at Berkeley and others. really understand the value of sleep for. health immune system function etc. There. is a stage of sleep rapid eye movement. sleep that we're all familiar with of. course and where literally the eyes are. moving. um. that tends to come later in the night. during the second half of sleep where. there's a there's a tendency to have. very emotional dreams. or at least dreams that are.

laden with a lot of emotional content of. some kind. During rapid eye movement sleep there's. an inability to move the body. We call. this atonia. It's a literally a a sleep. induced paralysis that's healthy. And a complete failure of the nervous. system to release adrenaline, epinephrine. This is sort of like a trauma therapy in. some sense. If you think about it, it's. a replay of an emotional event minus the. neurochemical that makes us feel tense. and agitated. So, in our mind those. dreams can often feel very distressing.

It's been shown that if you deprive. people of of rapid eye movement sleep, they fail to to dump the negative. emotions of things that happened the day. before and the day before. And I think. all of us have experienced the shift in. emotionality that happens when we are. sleep deprived. What ends up happening. is that the little things seem like big. things. But after a few nights sleep, we're okay. And there's no mystery to. why that is anymore. I think almost. every sleep scientist believes it has. something to do with this built-in kind. of trauma release therapy where you get. to experience the thing in your sleep.

minus the neurochemicals that make your. body feel terrible. And somehow that. dissociation allows people to then step. back into life with a with a clean. slate. Wow, yeah. No, I've I've heard those. ideas before, but the way you just wove. it all together is is really special. What I'm intrigued by then is what's the. latest science on dreams? Uh because there are so many spiritual. wisdom-based approaches to dreams. I've. never really dived deep enough, I think. from a scientific perspective into.

dreams apart from. uh. some particular aspects. But let's let's. go there. Let Yeah, where is So, I love. the idea that sleep of course is acting. as somewhat of a dishwasher, cleansing, healing agent. So, that while we're. sleeping, um. we're actually being able to release. these ideas. Hence, we have. Where do dreams fit into that picture? Yeah. Well, um glad you said dishwasher. cuz from a pure physiological. standpoint, this is separate from. dreams, but from a pure physiological. standpoint, it's now well appreciated.

that during sleep there's a rinsing out. of the debris that accumulate in the the. brain. The brain is the most. metabolically demanding organ that we. have. It consumes tons of energy. Most. of the energy that we burn in terms of. calories is from our brain, not our. muscles, even if people aren't don't. feel like they're thinking very hard. [laughter]. Um. and thinking very hard, as we know, can. feel very taxing. We can feel exhausted. after a hard conversation, right? The this washout, as it's called, is a. so-called glymphatic rinse out. The. brain wasn't thought to have a lymphatic.

system, but it does. Cerebrospinal fluid starts to reverse. basically its pattern of flow during. sleep. All these incredible ways of. washing out the brain during sleep. Now, during the first half of one's night, the. 90-minute cycles still persist that. we're talking about earlier, these. ultradian cycles. And those 90-minute. cycles are mostly made up of so-called. slow-wave sleep. So, we see big amplitude brain waves, this kind of thing. Dreams tend to be pretty boring early in. the night.

Uh they tend to be more associated with. motor function and movement. And it's. actually the case that growth hormone is. released in the early part of the night, and that most of the repair of the body. and tissues is occurring during that. first half of sleep. As the night goes. on, dreams become more intense and more. emotionally laden, regardless of what's. been going on in someone's waking life. And in fact, toward morning, almost all. of those 90-minute cycles that occur. back to back is going to be comprised of. of this rapid eye movement sleep.

So, the sleep toward morning is going to. be a much more emotional. Now, the. interesting thing is that. if you look at the data on dreaming in. humans, and you look at it purely through the. lens of neuroscience, you get a bunch of. language back about, okay, not much. epinephrine happening, so you're. dissociating the emotion from the. neurochemical state. If you look to the. psychology literature, which I do, you. or you read a book like Memories, Dreams, and Reflections by Jung, or you. start to look at some of the the kind of. hybrid work, which is psychiatry, which. of course are MDs that are grounded in.

physiology but also think. psychoanalytically. They I think they're really onto. something with this idea that dreams are. basically a time in which the ordinary. sequence of life events is converted. into heuristic shorthand symbols. And. the brain loves symbols in the daytime, too. Right? We don't walk around parsing. every angle of every um object. The way. the visual system works is that the. recognition of your face, for instance, there's a brain area that rec I've seen. you many, many millions of time millions.

of times, probably. And I recognize you. immediately as Jay Shetty because there. literally is a neuron in my brain that's. a Jay Shetty neuron. We know this, right? From recording from brains of. people that recognize people, right? If. I I met some of your staff today, lovely. people, for the first time, now those. neurons exist for them. But the that. representation of you was built up. through basic representation of just the. orientations of lines. All right? Just. like a a one would sketch your face and. then a build in more elaborate. representation.

The brain represents things in symbols. in a very abstract way. So, without. going to down too far of a rabbit hole, if I were to, for instance, say, "You. know what, Jay, I'm going to play artist. today, um of which I'm not, and I'm going to. draw your face." And I did my best to. draw your face and showed it to you, you'd probably say, "Oh, that's not. great, but but you'd probably recognize. some of the features.". Yeah. But, for instance, if I decided that I. was going to put your eyes in a. different location, eliminate your. teeth, put a bunch of tattoos on your. face, uh for fun, and and show you this, and I'd say, you'd say, "That doesn't.

look anything like me." And I say, "Ah, but that's my abstract representation of. you." It turns out that the brain. represents everything in the external. world as a shorthand abstract. representation. And in dreams, the. reason that the that we tend to, for. instance, replace people with animals or. objects with um. with different objects, is because the. brain is thinking more in terms of the. relationships between objects than it is. the objects themselves. And so, this is. where dream analysis gets a little bit. tricky. So, the analyst would say uh you.

know, the For instance, I had a dream. not that long ago where I was being. chased by two animals. It was a bear and. a wolf. A very salient dream for me. And turns out that that bear and that. wolf, I realized only later that day I. was walking around. I'd gone for a swim. in the ocean, got out of the ocean, and. I turned to someone and I said, "Oh my. goodness, I know what that was about.". That was about these two children that. are now in my life that and I thought, "They're chasing me like they need. something from me." And it opened up an. entire conscious discussion about that. So, in my mind, these children were.

represented as animals, not because. children are always represented as. animals, but probably because it was the. the feeling that they were impinging on. me. [laughter]. And they're one And they're lovely. children, but nonetheless that they're. impinging on me. So, the point is not my. dream. The point is that dream analysis. always has to take into account that the. brain operates in symbols, where objects. are replaceable. Mhm. And there is there are only. relationships between objects. And so, if one has a very scary dream about a.

person or sees a monster, it's really in the early waking state of. the day that we are in a position to. best understand those relationships. So, here's a a tool I recommend that's. actually supported by sleep science, Please. which is when waking. and in the first 30 minutes or so around. waking, you're in this liminal state, even if you're somebody who wakes up and. feels very alert, you're in this liminal. state where that symbolism is still. quite fluid. I highly recommend that people try and. not bring in too much new sensory.

experience if they want to understand. their dream. Stay lying down with your. eyes closed. Maybe tell your partner or. someone else you live with, if you live. with somebody that you just need a few. moments, and just try and move about. your day in a way where you're not. trying to solve the dream, but you're. also not bringing in a lot of new. sensory experience, because in that. moment you actually stand a chance of. parsing what that relationship is. And this is something that. psychoanalysts understand. This is. something that, believe it or not, clinical hypnotists understand. Bring. people into a state of deep relaxation.

and. be able to capture that transition. between the sleep and waking state. Forgive me for the, you know, excessively long answer, but. No, not excessively long at all. It's. fascinating. Honestly, like not not. excessively long. Please carry on. Yeah. Well, there So, there's physiology that. we know, and then there's the psychology. of this. And and just to make it very. clear, the brain thinks in symbols in. the daytime and in dreams, in waking. states and in dreams. It's all symbols. Everything this is symbolic. representation because we can't parse. all the information coming in our. nervous system. But because the nervous.

system's main job is to make really good. predictions, to basically do statistics. Like when. for instance, as a child, one of the. first things you learn is that objects. fall down, not up. So, the first time. they see a helium balloon, it's like awe. and excitement. That awe and excitement. is the release of neurochemicals that. teach the brain sometimes objects fall. up, so to speak. Yeah. So, once one starts to recognize that. the brain is always trying to make these. predictions, you can start to look at. your dreams as. symbolic representations and how those.

relate to one another. The action. functions are far more interesting and. important than uh it was a vase, and you. know, when I was a kid, there was a vase. in my grandmother's home, and that vase. represented something. Maybe, but more. likely, you would want to think about. the shape of it or what it what where. that vase was in relationship to other. things. Mhm. Because that's how the brain works. It. makes predictions based on context. Yeah. I hope that's helpful to people. Um if. there's if there are other theories of. dreams, and I'm certain that there are.

that that extend past this, I apologize. for not addressing them, but I think for. most people, just thinking about the. relationship between objects in their. dreams is going to be more useful than. thinking about what exactly that the. dream was about, quote unquote. Yes. And and I want to just say, please. do not apologize. That was a brilliant. answer and and it was so useful even for. me because I I think you're so right. that so often even people will ask me, they'll be like, "Hey, I had this dream. What does it mean?". One thing we have not solved as a. neuroscientist is two things. One, why.

it is that people need to tell other. people their dreams because other. people, unless it's a trained therapist, Totally. are useless for helping unless they have. an intense knowledge of the symbolic. representations in your life. We should. all be doing this ourselves. And the. other one is a kind of peculiar one. which is there seems to be a need among. many people that if they wake up in the. middle of the night and they can't sleep. to wake up other people who are. sleeping. [laughter]. But I haven't solved that one. No, I love that and I completely agree. with you. I think when I think about. that though, what really struck me was. this idea of the brain loving symbols.

And I think of what are healthy symbols. throughout the day because I think we. forget, I mean, you came into this room. earlier. We came into the studio and you. were looking around at all my symbols. that I surround myself with. Do they. count as symbols? Do they not count as. symbols? Absolutely. One thing I noticed immediately on. walking in here is. these many of things are beautiful and. they have a lot of depth to them and I. have this. obsession with anytime I'm in a new. environment, provided that it's. appropriate, I just have to sniff around.

and look at everything. I have to kind. of know where I am in relationship to. things. Absolutely and and I saw you do that and. I didn't want to bore you with the. history of everything. I I can send it. to you, but the idea that I find as. well, this environment has been sculpted. with symbols that allow me to be present. with someone and what I hope will help. others be present as well or at least. spark their curiosity and intrigue so. that we can have that in our. conversation. I wonder what are healthy symbols? Are. there certain healthy symbols for the.

brain to connect with on a daily basis, before sleep, after sleep, that allow us. to program ourselves more effectively. because I feel like most of the symbols. that we're seeing are unconscious or. unintentional. or mainly marketing or advertising or. propaganda, but we're not really. selective around our symbols. Now, I love that you asked this question. because. for years, you know, we hear these. things like you know, you are the sum of. the five people you spend the most time.

with, but nowadays we spend more time. with symbols and people on social media. than we do often times with other. individuals or at least equal amounts of. time in the room, right? Rarely is it. just the physical bodies in the room. It's all the the people in our phone, which I don't see as a bad thing. Actually, for years. when I was working more or less in. isolation in my lab, um. I. had this little list. I don't think I've. ever shared this before. I had this. little list of people who I love and. admire, many of whom I've never met. And. I just would read that list over and.

over again. I didn't realize at the. time, but I was developing what I. believe the analyst call this a. an interject or an introject perhaps. Someone should look that up. I forget. which one it is. Which is actually a subconscious. representation of somebody else's ideas. and approach to things. That if we. for instance listen to you over and over. again, the nervous system starts to ask. questions like what would Jay do in this. circumstance? That's a very real thing.

and we're not always consciously aware. of it. Now, physical symbols are also. very important because. the brain. likes to make predictions. It loves symbols because symbols are a. shorthand way of of eliminating a lot of. useless information, but much of the way. that we operate and feel really does. impact us at a subconscious level. And this has been shown over and over. again. I mean, it's and it's always cast. in the context of subconscious bias, which has kind of a negative slant. anytime we hear bias of course, but. there are positive biases as well. So, I.

think that for some people having order. among symbols is very important, equal. spacing, everything very aligned. I'm. sort of one of those, but you know, I'm. kind of in the middle. Um other people. um they aren't so. consumed with the with the relationships. between how they arrange things. physically, but they enjoy great depth. and emotional relationship to things. It. could be a pendant. It could be. nowadays, you know, people like tattoos. are kind of interesting, right? They're. much more prominent than when I was. growing up. They are an externalization.

of how people feel on the inside. Yes. Right? So, those are very powerful. symbols. And there's something about the. process of stamping it into one's skin, etc. Um the slider intense pain. involved, depending on where and who. does it and who and the person's pain. threshold. So, symbols are a way in. which we create an external reflection. of who we are to ourselves, but also. they are operating in a subconscious. level to keep us for instance in a place. of order. Like to be able to organize. one's thoughts in a world filled with.

statistical information. Every ray of. sunshine is statistical information. We. can't pay attention to all of it. So, I. think that um to directly answer your. question, there are a couple of things. that I think from morning till night. make it outsized positive effect on our. nervous system both in terms of its. ability to feel, think, and act, and its. ability to learn. The first one isn't so much a symbol. unless you adopt it as one, and I. certainly have, which is. there are now thousands of quality. studies showing that. we should all try and get some bright.

light, ideally sunlight, in our eyes. with within the early hours of waking. This doesn't necessarily meaning waking. with the sunrise, although if you can do. that, that's great. Some people wake up. before the sun comes out. Getting a lot. of bright sunlight in one's eyes early. in the day puts a number of. neurochemicals and hormones into a state. of. let's just call it what it is, positivity. Mood is enhanced, immune. system function is enhanced, sleep is. enhanced 16 to, you know, 20 hours. later, and so on. Also in the evening. So, the sun as a. symbol is is important, but it's also.

anchoring our subconscious physiology, because every cell in our body has a. 24-hour clock. We need to time it to the. rise and fall of the sun each day. When human beings become. misaligned with that rising and falling. of the sun, bad things happens to the. nervous system. Now, fortunately, it's. very easy to fix. There's a study done. at University of Colorado taking college. students camping. I wish I'd been a. subject in this experiment. [laughter]. What they found is that melatonin. rhythms, cortisol rhythms, which can be. a healthy thing, we all have cortisol, protects us, energizes us, dopamine,

epinephrine, all these rhythms of the. body could be reinstated to their proper. timing by waking up and seeing the sun. and going to sleep not too long after. sunset, depending on time of year, for. two nights and two mornings. And and. this lasted at least 2 weeks, even. though people were getting artificial. light. So, I would say the symbol of the. sun is not just um. uh you know, it's not a trivial thing at. all. It's the anchor by which our our. biology is designed and our psychology. follows, of course. That was brilliant, by the way. Thank.

you. you know, many people who have trouble. sleeping, many people who have mood. issues, this enhances metabolism. I. mean, I could list it on and on and on. People will ask, so I'll just put it out. there. Um. try and do this without sunglasses, if. you safely can. You don't stare directly. at the sun. Never look at any light so. bright that it's painful to look at. You. can, of course, blink. Only takes a few. minutes on a cloudless day. If you're in. the UK in the depths of winter, you're. still going to get more light coming. through cloud cover by going outside. than you would indoors with bright. lights on. And it can take anywhere from 2 minutes.

to 30 minutes, depending on how dark or. or bright it is outside. Sunglasses and uh excuse me, eyeglasses. and contacts perfectly fine. If you. think about it, if anything, that just. focuses light onto the retina. Don't try. and do this through a window or or a. windshield, because it filters out a lot. of the light that you want. So, the sun. is a key symbol. Uh I think if people. could adopt that, there I'm certain. their physiology and psychology will. benefit. Then, And terms of physical. symbols, I find it very useful and there are good. data. If a, you know, if a picture is.

worth a thousand words, a movie is worth. a bazillion pictures. So, having an. image of something that makes you feel. good and seeing that early in the day, tremendously powerful. Having a mental. image of something in your mind is. equally powerful because you also carry. that with you. And then if you do have a. meditative practice, or even if you. don't, being able to try and bring the. mind and the body into that experience. So, taking a moment to look at a photo. of someone that you love or appreciate,

and or the actual person, right? And. being able to actually sense that and. feel it at a complete nervous system. level. It might sound like kind of woo. science, but it's not. The nervous. system extends through the whole body. Yeah. So, the extent that you can make that a. truly whole body somatic experience, Yeah. that it leads to an outsized effect on. the just the ability of the nervous. system to function. And then of course, we're we are bombarded all day with. negative symbols. There's just no way. around that. But we can buffer ourselves. against those negative symbols by very.

strongly associating with certain. things. And here I'll just defer that. great neurologist and writer Oliver. Sacks had this obsession with minerals. and stones. He felt they had. personalities. And he used to say that. he had developed such a strong. relationship to them, their touch, um. especially as he started to lose his. vision later in life, that the the way. they felt and they made him feel safe. They made him feel good. So, these could. be inanimate objects. So, find things. that you love and associate the with.

with them on a regular basis, and you. are literally shifting your nervous. system towards this place of buffering. yourself against negativity, and you are. reinforcing the very circuits that. trigger the release of neurochemicals. that make you feel better. And some. people might say, "Well, then you're. just kind of doping yourself up with. your own chemicals." But as a last point. here, the neurochemical dopamine is a. very important and very misunderstood. molecule. First of all, it is the substrate by. which epinephrine neural energy is. created, and people think of it as.

dopamine is just feeling good, but. dopamine is not about feeling good. Dopamine is the molecule of motivation. and the desire to pursue additional. things in a particular line of life. So, when we positively associate with a. song, a person, a face, an object, the. sunrise, we don't just benefit from those. activities based on the effects of those. activities. It's also what we believe. about those activities combine, and the. release of dopamine makes you more. capable of then leaning into life and.

going and doing other things. And so, it. And these are not small effects, right? The The effect of a small, even, you. know, half a percent increase in. dopamine transmission in the brain is. the difference between feeling like your. life is bleak and you can completely. attack the day in the positive sense. So, fill your life with symbols. You get. What's wonderful is that you get to. curate what those are. If you don't have access to them in your. physical environment, they can be. entirely internal. Yeah. And when I think about the great stories.

of the Victor Frankls and the. Yeah. You know, uh and and people who have. just overcome tremendous challenge, they've internalized symbols such that. the tiniest of things can actually evoke. this this dopamine release system. And. dopamine is just a generic. neuromodulator. It doesn't know anything. about your experience. It only knows. what you believe about your experience, and it's deployed according to what you. believe about your experience. So, in. theory, I I could train my dopamine. system to release dopamine every time I.

raised my right hand if I genuinely. thought that that had if that has. meaning for me. And this is the art also. of superstitions, right? This is why, uh. you know, people will engage in. superstitions because they've built. positive associations with outcomes a. according to a certain behavior. So, what you start to realize is that the. brain is making predictions about the. external world. Who's Jay? When's he. coming back? Um, you know, what objects. are going to be in the room this time. versus next time. If I suddenly walk out. and that painting over there, which I. happen to love, is now on a different.

wall, my nervous system would notice. that because it's but it's also making. predictions about internal state. And a. lot of depression and anxiety is about. people feeling like, oh, when they feel. lousy that that lousy feeling is going. to go on forever. Yes. The way to rewire this is to understand. that making and controlling predictions. about how you feel internally gives you. a sense of agency. And that sense of. agency at the end of the day is just. purely neurochemical. So, these are. pretty straightforward things to master.

I mean, that's mind-blowing to me. because I've never heard dopamine be. explained that way. Well, dopamine everything about dopamine. release is learned. Yeah. There are a few things like, um, all the adapt all the ones that evolved. uh for us to be here. Uh, okay? So, so. say with reproduction, food, sugar. There's a very powerful dopamine pathway. in the brain and in the gut to because. sugar has a nutritive value, right? We. should all probably be ingesting less of. it, but, you know, you get it is a. hardwired system. Um, food when we're. hungry, warmth when we're cold. Those.

are hardwired, but the dopamine system. is designed to be trained up to. associate with anything. Yeah. And this is how a a guy like uh you can. meditate for long periods of time and. feel it I'm guessing there were times in. which it felt brutal and there were. times in which it felt incredible. Um, this is how a a guy like David Goggins. can, um, you know, punish himself with. running it you know, over and over and. over and yet somehow he's inverted that. dopamine circuit so that it feels like.

something he either wants to do or that. by overcoming the. the resistance to doing it, he he gets a. a dopamine Yeah. release. So, dopamine. is entirely a learned release system. There are a few things that trigger its. release no matter what, but and it I. should highlight drugs of abuse. I was just about to say which is why. anything can become an addiction. Cocaine, amphetamine, excess, you know, pornography, excessive. dopamine release and that the diabolical. thing about dopamine under those. conditions is that the higher the.

dopamine release, the big amplitude. dopamine, the bigger the crash, always. It's the way the circuits are designed. Now here we're talking about. self-training in healthy amounts of. dopamine release, non-addictive amounts. of dopamine release. Or you could say. mildly addictive patterns of behavior. that serve us and the people around us. well. And in that case I think of that. as kind of an adaptive addiction. [snorts] compulsion. Yeah. Um and not one that we should. necessarily avoid. Absolutely. I think that for me, the way. I differentiate that and I think that's.

such a good distinction that you're. raising there because what you're. basically saying is we could convince. ourselves through the release of. dopamine that anything is good for us. and hence it can lead to addiction or it. can be these aspirational positive. habits for us. And I think the way I've. been able to at least differentiate is. that which is good for me after that. which makes me feel good after I do it. because that's that release of dopamine. that I'm experiencing after I do it is. more important than that which makes me.

feel good before I do it. that. So I don't feel good before I go to the. gym or maybe before I meditate or before. I eat a healthy bowl of protein and food. that's good for me, but I always feel. good after it. that. And when I I feel good before I stay up. late at night and hope that we're going. to have a great time. I feel good before. I eat a pizza or I feel good before I. have loads of sugar because I have a. massive sweet tooth, but then afterwards. I feel the pangs of it. I love that and it proves that.

in your heart you're a neuroscientist. because there's something called. dopamine reward prediction error. This. was defined by a in Wolfram Schultz and. others, and it's an incredible thing, and it can be made very simple, which is. when we positively anticipate something, there is dopamine release. I mean, just. tell kids that you're going for ice. cream, and you're seeing what is all now. explained as reward prediction error. Now you get to the ice cream shop, and. it's closed. What happens is their. dopamine drops below baseline before. they were told they were going for ice. cream. If they're going to the ice cream.

shop and they have ice cream, you might. think then they get even more dopamine, but guess what? If the ice cream isn't. as good, or if one kid that the ice. cream cone falls, and they don't get. another one, what ends up happening is. that. dopamine is. relative to where they were just. feeling. It doesn't feel that great. And. so this is the the the diabolical nature. of addictive drugs. People get a. dopamine surge in anticipation of using, and over time they get less and less of. a dopamine surge, but the punishment. signal, as we say, that comes.

afterwards, the trough afterwards, goes. lower and lower and lower. So it's like. a asymmetric seesaw. It's not just back. and forth. It goes dopamine, but then it. goes punishment signal. Now you figured. it out, because dopamine reward. prediction error says that if you have. less dopamine heading into something. than you do afterward, that tells the. synapses, the brain connections, that. were involved to reinforce themselves. and to engage in that behavior again. And this is also what happens with. surprise. If you go someplace you're not. expecting, you know what? Like let's.

let's go to this place for dinner. I. don't know, looks good, and it's. amazing, you create a much bigger. dopamine signal than if I tell you, Jay, I got to take you to this place. This is. the best sushi in Los Angeles. It's. incredible. That actually sets you up to. not enjoy the meal as much. So we all. should learn to kind of control this. dopamine knob. You've done it. beautifully by simplifying it into. making sure that you get enough. happiness, thrill, excitement in. retrospect. That's the way to wire in. healthy behaviors. And I'm I I've never. actually heard it put as succinctly as.

you, because academics are not trained. to be succinct as [laughter] you can. tell. But I think if everyone kept that. in mind, they would do themselves a. great service, which is. try and ask whether or not the ple- you. had as much or more pleasure in the. aftermath of something as you did. during, and you will. you get two benefits. One is you can. avoid addictive type behaviors. And the other, because you avoid that. crash, if there's a dopamine release. after there's no crash. And the other is. that you'll have a tendency to return to.

that behavior over and over again. This. is also why I think a lot of people. enter new relationships. And there is a. well-established dopamine surge with the. early phase. Everything feels possible. People feel like people would go out and. make purchases. They're kind of manic, right? And it's a very exciting kind of mental. illness that we all enjoy from time to. time. But then. people start to enter the phase of real. challenge or often times real challenge. And if they can't make that transition. seamlessly and they constantly focus. back on how great things were, and they.

look at the differential, it can be a. kind of a dark picture. And then people. have to start working on trying to. reignite, so to speak. But the bigger. the dopamine surge at the beginning, the. the bigger the crash. So I think that a. wonderful model for relationship is also. to temper that dopamine release. Spread. it out over time. Try and spread it out. over 50 years and you're and you're home. free. Now, I'm not an expert in. relationship, but it is absolutely clear. that dopamine is the hallmark of human. bonding. Then, you know, early on.

anyway. Then come the oxytocin and all. that the the feel-good warmth molecules. because dopamine fundamentally is about. accessing things that are outside your. immediate experience. It's reaching for. things beyond the confines of your skin. A degree, money, a relationship that you're work-. that's developing and that you're. working on. Whereas the serotonin and. oxytocin system, which I think most. people have heard of, are feel-good. molecules. They're associated with. things we already have. Knowledge of how. wonderful our partner is. Knowledge of.

how much we love something or or how. much we appreciate the meal that we had. So, neither it's not that dopamine is. bad and and and serotonin is good. These. are molecules that have been built up in. our system over time to allow us to. establish new relationships of all kinds. to things and people and to ourselves. and then to sustain them. But that those. big dopamine peaks early on are very. very. dangerous. And you we need to learn to. temper them and just spread that out. over time. It's a resource and we need. to learn to calibrate that resource.

Andrew, you honestly you just blowing my. mind again and again and again because. there are so many long-held beliefs that. I have or techniques or tools that I've. built or mindsets that I've created and. that I share and and and coach and and. pass on from the studies that I've done, but I get so much joy out of seeing. deep study support those ideas. I think. I want to unpack a a lot of the things. you said. The first thing I want to say.

is my new claim to fame is that you said. I'm an honorary neuroscientist now. So. So I'm going to. You [laughter] you think like a. neuroscientist because to be able to. batch things in time that way is a. unique skill. I'm not saying this for. flattery, but if it makes you feel good. even better. Like but the fact of the. matter is that. being funny, but I'm grateful. But most people think about experiences. as one thing. We you know, we went to. Costa Rica. It was amazing. Ah, but and. I'm sure it was. And when dopamine's. flooding through your system, there's. also something really cool is it. distorts your perception of time. It.

feels like time goes by very very fast, but in looking back it seems like a lot. happened. Think about when you're bored. in the doctor's office waiting room. Feels like it goes on forever and you. look back, guess what happened? Nothing. It's low dopamine state. So dopamine. actually acts as a it's like shooting a. film at high frame rate. Yeah. Okay. So. feels like a lot's happening, you look. back and and it it goes by very fast, but you look back a lot happened. So, you batch things in time, and this is. fundamentally important to how we we.

work. If we look at experiences only in. terms of how we experience them and not. the aftermath, we miss a a huge portion. of life. And more importantly, we miss. the opportunity to access the right. behaviors and thoughts. Yeah. We can be very misled by things like. dopamine. It's it's a uh. it's really a a tricky molecule to work. with, and we're all working with it. No. one is immune from this, right? So, but. yes, you are absolutely a.

neuroscientist. [laughter]. That's my new That's my new tagline. wherever I go. No, I I I have such a. fascination with neuroscience, and I. hope that at one point in my life, I. create the time and space to deeply. study and and study alongside you. it. We should do an experiment. It's genuinely a desire in my life, so. I'm not just. Eberhardt has a mind-body lab, Ali. Crum's lab, which is all about beliefs. and how beliefs shape our physiology. My. colleague David Spiegel in psychiatry. studies hypnosis and brain states and. beliefs in mind-body. So, Stanford, of. course, does all the, you know, hardcore.

rigorous stuff around molecular biology, genetics, etc., deep sequencing, but we. also have a collection of people there. that are very interested in mind-body, so we should design an experiment. Yeah, definitely. I I'd love to That. would be That's music to my ears. Uh I'm backing more of what you said. What I find so interesting is that you. said obviously this this painting that. you like behind me, and then you said if. it was in another place, then, you know, it takes a bit of time to reconfigure. and recalibrate, you know, what's going. on here. And when you look at our lives today, so.

much of the anxiety that we experience. is based on change or the lack of being. able to predict, as we talked about, or. unpredictability. And we've long known, kind of like what. you were saying before, we've long known. that, you know, things will not always. stay the same. We realize that change is. the only constant, that uncertainty is. the only certainty. Like, we know these. truths, yet we love holding on to. predict even for me. Like, when I walk.

into this room, I do predict that these. things will remain on the wall and the. mics will be here and Homer will have. set up the lights and and there's some. predictability there, which creates. security. But, as we all know, shifting. and being good with change is so. integral. What do we do with that? Like, how do we. start opening up and being more. comfortable. in the discomfort of change, not just. growth, but just change and shifts that. we don't expect and predict? Yeah, I think two ways. Um, one, I'll.

just go back to this fundamental feature. of the nervous system, which is it's. trying to make predictions. So, the. reason why change is stressful, even. positive change, believe it or not, is. {quote} and {quote} stressful, uh, is because of this, then the release. of adrenaline and and associated. molecules with anytime things change. I. mean, if you look the psychologists have. worked this out, there's a hierarchy of. stressors. Um, and of course, at the at. the top of that hierarchy are awful. things that we don't, you know, I think. at the top, to be honest, I think death.

of a child is is perhaps the the. greatest stressor. Divorce, death of a. loved one, um, these kinds of horrible things that we. wouldn't wish on anyone. Then, as one. goes down, not too far below, you see. things like moving to a new home or. apartment. You think, well, that could. be a great event, right? Birth of a new. child. And you think, wait a second, I. thought that's supposed to be one of the. greatest joys in life, and indeed it is. But, it's stressful to the nervous. system because so many things have to be. reconfigured, to sit not to say anything.

about the lack of sleep with a newborn. and this kind of thing. So, change is always going to force our. brain to make more assessments of our. environment. One of the things that we. can say about the brain for sure is that. once it learns something, it likes to. not have to think about it. When you. walk, because you already know how to. walk, you don't think right, left, right, left, right, left. But when you. learn how to dance a new step or. something of that sort or a new skill. uh sports skill, you have to think about. it and it's work. And anytime we have to. think about behaviors and they aren't.

simply reflexive, that work as we call. it isn't it's a combination of the. release of things like adrenaline, epinephrine in the brain and body. I. should say from the adrenals in the. body, but also in the brain from a. little brain area called locus coeruleus. that is acts as kind of a sprinkler. system for the brain to kind of wake up. all brain areas saying, "Okay, let's pay. attention to a lot of stuff here." Very. basic system um but but very fundamental. system. It's literally a wake-up system. for the brain. Works in parallel with. the release of of adrenaline into our.

body. [snorts]. Now, one way to deal with change is to simply. know this, right? To understand that if. one feels stressed or agitated or on a. new move or you have a partner who's. really stressed about a new move even. though it's exciting, it should be. exciting, that that's perfectly normal. because what they're experiencing is. this increase in agitation and alertness. and it also makes it harder to enter. deeply relaxed states because the brain. is in a mode of predictions, making. predictions. What's happening next? Thinking, thinking, thinking. And one of.

the things that's key to falling asleep. each night and replenishing our ability. to think and make predictions is the. ability to turn off thinking. This is. why I'm such a fan of what traditionally. was called yoga nidra, which literally. means yoga sleep, lying down. It's a. form of meditation, as you know, and. with breathing etc. Um. I certainly I I want to point out that I. have no desire to rename any of these. ancient practices. These are beautiful. practices that have been built up over. thousands of years. The reason I call uh. sometimes batch yoga nidra with. so-called NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, is.

that unfortunately. both in science and in traditional. cultures around some of these behaviors, the language has become a barrier for. people to try them. I'm not trying to to wash away any of. the the wonderful culture and tradition. around these. I want to be very clear. about that. But ultimately, it it's. about accessing a state of mind as for. anyone that's listened to a Yoga Nidra. script, and I should say I do Nidra. every day. I have for almost a decade. now. It's without question. along with viewing morning light,

sunlight, the most powerful practice I. think I can recommend anyone. Um. it is about, as you always hear in a. classic Nidra script, you move away from. thinking and doing to being and feeling. Now, what is that? If we take a. neuroscience lens, what is this thinking. and doing, being and feeling? It's about. shutting down of the prefrontal cortex, which is making predictions. What's. happening next, right? As you move into. sleep, you enter that kind of liminal. state where things become disjointed, right? A cat flies through the room, and.

then you might jerk yourself awake, and. it's kind of odd. But that's the state. of not thinking and doing and just being. and feeling, being in one's pure somatic. experience. So, I would say. in order to move through change, designate 20 to 30 minutes each day. to put the brain into a state of. non-thinking, non-doing, and into a. state of {quote} and {quote} being and. feeling. So, not making predictions. Now, the tricky thing is when one is. stressed, that's especially hard to do. And this is why I think what is it Thich.

Nhat Hanh said, you know, what is it who. said, you know, um. when stressed, you know, meditate every. day, but when stressed, meditate twice. as long or something like that, right? when when I don't think I have time, like that is almost when I need to make. the time, yeah. It's a skill. And so, this ability to. turn off thinking enhances one's ability. to enter sleep, which is vital for. mental and physical health, obviously, learning, et cetera, for reasons we. discussed. So, develop the ability to. deliberately disengage from thinking and.

doing, and do that during periods of low. stress. Mhm. Right? 20 to 30 minutes a day, even 10. minutes a day of just learning to. teaching oneself and practicing the art. of turning off prediction. is an incredibly valuable skill. Wow. And then the other one is to just. understand that we're being bombarded. with contextual change all the time. You. know, I love Instagram. I teach science. on Instagram. I see you there daily. Um. and so scrolling on Instagram is an. interesting experience because in 5. minutes you can look at a thousand. different contexts.

The human brain has never dealt with. that kind of change before. Even when. television, when I was growing up there. were three or four good channels, then. it went to cable, and then now you get. onto an airplane or something you got. 240 channels. Yeah. That's That's a drop in the bucket. compared to what we can get in in a. social media feed. So I think we just. need to be aware that the brain can work. with that, but then what you're turning. on is an ability to walk into a new. context and and figure it out the. statistics. Imagine if if in an. Instagram feed, and I'm not demonizing.

Instagram. I think they're wonderful. I. think they provide a wonderful resource, truly. But imagine if we walked out of. this room and it was a completely. different landscape. It was a jungle. Then we turn the corner and go into what. I would think was the kitchen, and it. was the kitchen of the some, you know, of what some Thomas Keller. restaurant in New York. Turn the corner, and all of a sudden we're underwater. That's social media. Yeah. And we can cope with that. So. verse. So if I think about it that way, then I. think if we can cope with that, then we. can cope with transitions in.

so-called real life with with ease. Now, some people have more situational. awareness than others. They walk into an. environment and they're sensing all the. things. Other people walk into an. environment and they're very good at. narrowing their attentional spotlight. The latter group actually has a bit of. an advantage. They probably wouldn't be. so good as a special operator in the. military. They have to develop. situational advantage, or a police. officer, or a teacher, but they're. They're to be immensely good at. one-on-one interactions because they can. make the room disappear.

And so [snorts] both we need both kinds. of people and we all need to learn how. to. sort of brighten and broaden these. attentional spotlights and narrow them. as well. And I'll just briefly say we. are old world primates as it turns out. and we have the capacity to do what's. called covert attention. Yeah. I can pay attention to you but I can. also notice that in my periphery there's. something else going on. So I've got two. spotlights now but I am dividing my. attention. We can't do three. simultaneously. But what I can also do. is decide to merge those two spotlights. and intensify them and narrow the.

aperture of my visual window and my. auditory window. So we should always. think of our our attention is two. spotlights that can be very broad. or it can be very narrowly focused and. that we can overlap them. Yeah. And I think. That's fantastic. we should all know how to do both. Yes. We should learn how to narrow the. aperture of our focus, deeply engage, but also deliberately disengage. Yeah. And the process of falling asleep that. we're talking about before is the. practice of learning how to take that. attentional spotlight, move those two.

apart, and then. not dim them but extend that same. luminosity out more broadly, more. broadly, and then we're off to sleep. Yes. So so it's about deliberate control of. the nervous system. And unfortunately, we all know how to focus on something if. we're very stressed or excited by it. Most people don't learn how to turn off. this focus and learn how to deliberately. disengage. And one of my great hopes for. humanity is that children and adults. will learn how to deliberately.

disengage. Yeah. Because it benefits sleep which benefits. mental and physical health. And also, if. you think about it, most of the bad. things that we do to ourselves and. others and that people do to one. another, most, not all, but most are from a. heightened state of reactivity where. we're just not conscious. And that's. because our aperture, our window of. attention, is too narrow. We're not. taking into account the full space and. time of what we're thinking about. Yeah. And as a last point, space and time are. linked in the brain. Uh if you have a.

narrow visual focus, you tend to have a. narrow time slicing, right? Which makes. sense if you think about like a little. kid watching ants on the ground and then. gets called into dinner and all of a. sudden the way you batch time is. different. When you're sleepy, you tend. to batch things in big blocks. Okay? Or. when you're bored, big blocks of time. When you're very excited, stressed, or. happily excited, you're in that fast. frame rate. You've gone from 60 frames. per second, which I think is a a typical. smartphone, to a thousand frames per. second.

Wow. So, you're catching all the micro. nuances, but you're missing everything. else. Mhm. And And what I what I find most. interesting about that though is And And. I read a study a few years ago and I I. don't know if it I don't know. I can't. remember where it's from, but. it it said something along the lines of. that. today in 24 hours we're exposed to more. tragedy through the news or pain or. stress, whatever word we want to label. that as, than we were in our entire. lifetime 25 years ago.

I believe that sadly I I think I have to. agree. [clears throat]. Yeah. And And what I found also was that. what you're saying, and I love this idea. of we have these two points of focus and. putting it together or bringing out, which I think is fantastic as as a. visual, too. There's an element though that really. draws us in of judgment and criticism. Like I find judgment, I'm using judgment. as the overall word, criticism is a very. specific word, but what really makes. something harder, like when we're. processing thousand posts on Instagram,

the most difficult part is when judgment. comes in, whether it's positive or. negative, because that's what draws you. in, and I find that we have more things. to judge. And to make that many. judgments in a day is quite exhausting, and then to be exhausted by the number. of tragic or stressful moments that we. experience. And like you said that, you. know, it's okay if we're on Instagram. and we're seeing multiple things or. we're seeing this kitchen into this. animation into this world, but when a.

lot of it is painful, to deliberately disengage but remain. connected to reality, I feel like that's. somewhere where people feel like they're. in no-man's land. Yeah, and you know, it it's a particular. challenge now. with the number of images and movies. that can come out of us and and you. know, I think that uh. here I I. I'm not one to to usually talk like. this, but I think much of a building a. good life is about both honoring and.

challenging the asymmetries of our. nervous system. What I mean by that is, you know, everything we've talked about. up until now are. wired into us from birth. We have. dopamine, epinephrine, these circuitries. that give an attentional spotlight. That. all we show up in the world with that. and we and we do them. We also need to. acknowledge that there is an asymmetry. to learning. You know, before we talked. about the gap effects and the two-stage. process of neuroplasticity, there are. exceptions. The exception is learning of. negative things. You only have to touch. the hot stove once or the meta.

metaphorically speaking the hot stove. only has to touch you once before it. changes you. So, there's one-trial. learning of negative experiences. Now, once we understand that asymmetry and. once we understand that negativity. actually has a bit of a stronghold on. our nervous system, then we accept I. would hope we would accept the idea that. then we have to work a little harder to. counter that or maybe a lot harder in. the same way that so-called highly. palatable foods, which is now because. kind of science geek speak for unhealthy.

highly processed foods cuz there's some. you know, I do love fruits and. vegetables and all that and there's some. wonderful baked goods. Let's face it. I. mean, I I love croissants. So, I I to. demonize highly palatable Yeah, highly. palatable [clears throat] foods, but but. I think we could all do well to eat. healthier foods and they are not as. rewarding in the short term as some of. these highly palatable foods, right? And. especially to the young nervous system, you know, there's you know, a a. milkshake or or a. candy just tastes better to these kids. than vegetables for reasons that are.

hardwired into the nervous system. But. we know that kids need their fruits and. vegetables probably more than they need. candy. Okay. So. we have to all learn to counter these. built-in asymmetries in our nervous. system. And as adults, we probably. thought we had it made, but then now. we're bombarded with all this negative. imagery. And so the key is really. symbols that we were talking about. earlier to really build in positive. symbols and internal symbolic. representations. What I mean by that, not just physical things in our.

environment and people, but also how we. hold those things inside is so. important. I think this is what comes to. this notion of intentions. It's work, right? Right life and right action and. all these things that we hear about. It's work. It's it's working against the. tide that is pulling us toward. negativity. That's Um in fact, there's a. study that was done in the '60s that was. published in the journal Science. It's. an excellent journal, one of the apex. journals. They had people with stimulating. electrodes in their brain for reasons. related to neurosurgery.

These people could stimulate multiple. areas of their brain one at a time. And. then they reported how they felt. So. that the the human would stimulate and. they'd feel drunk or they'd stimulate. another area and they'd feel happy. They'd stimulate another area they'd. feel sad. The fascinating we learned a. lot about the human brain from these. studies. The brain area that people. preferred to stimulate the most, this is. really going to upset a few people, was. the one that led to anger and. frustration. Wow. And you think yourself, well, that's. just terrible. Are we just doomed,

right? No. What turns out that anger and. frustration is a signal to the brain and. body that you need to do something in. response to that. Usually move away or. move forward and and sort of enter an. aggressive state. Knowing that. trained, right? That's. like habit. And that probably comes through in. habit. I think this is why people I. spend more time. on Instagram than I do on other social. media platforms, but listen, I'm not. embarrassed to say you go on Twitter and. it's a more combative zone. It's just.

the nature of the beast there. It's a. more combative zone. In part cuz there. are a lot of academics on. It's more combative. So, I notice if I. log on to Twitter, I already get a. little bit of an adrenaline surge. It's. like, all right, you're ready to fight. And just knowing that we have this. innate bias towards frustration and. anger and that kind of friction, hopefully, my wish is that it will allow. people to relax around that and to. realize, ah, this is sort of like the. food that I immediately want to reach.

for, that's the kind of dopamine signal. that you were talking about early on, but how am I going to feel afterwards? Yes. How am I going to feel afterwards? And I. would say that 99% of online. interactions where people end up in. these ridiculous battles, later both. parties probably think, well, how did I. get wrapped up in that? That's. absolutely crazy. You know, you think. you're scoring slam dunks on each other. at the time, but it's ridiculous. So, I. think the thing to understand is that we. have these asymmetries, but that we can learn to work with them. The way that a a really. I think a really incredible psychiatrist.

who's done a lot of work on trauma, Paul. Conti, describes it. in a different context is that um and. he's like to my mind the expert on. trauma and just has done beautiful work. is that it's like those little kids toys. where there's a little ball bearing. moving around in a maze. He described. this to me. So, this is all Paul Conti. He's an MD and this is his work, not. mine. His words. You know, there are times in which we are like. that game where just a slight shift and. all of a sudden the ball bearing goes. down the shoot. And what we should all. be striving for is for, you know, slightly concave and for it to kind of.

maybe move around a bit with the with. the with the events of life and what we. hear and see. That's what we should be. striving toward and that takes work. Some people are naturally there but very. few people are naturally there. But this. is the power of meditation. This is the. power of non-sleep deep rest. This is. the power of good sleep or most nights. This is the power of excellent social. relationships. This is the power of. mindsets and intentions. That stuff, gratitude practices. None of that stuff is weak. All of that. stuff acts as a kind of a a foundation.

from which we can approach things and go. "Yeah, the impulse is to get pretty. upset about that but I'm going to lean. away from that." Very hard to do when. we're not tending to that those. foundational elements. Actually quite. easy to do over time because it gives us. the perspective. And um. I think that if we understand that we're. being bombarded with this, it's like. being at a buffet of junk food. Yeah. But understanding that somewhere in that. buffet is really nutritious food and.

that's what we should be aiming for and. learning to kind of override the the. natural signals of "Ooh, I really want. that and I really want that" by thinking. about exactly what you said earlier, which is how am I going to feel. afterwards? Being And what what's that? That's dilating our perception of time. We're getting out of that slave to. dopamine mode and we're starting to. think about "No, I'm not going to let. dopamine control me. I'm going to. control dopamine." And that's powerful. Yeah, I I I Well, that spoke to me is. also this idea that I've.

been in love with for a while is. fragility and strength and how not being. exposed to something doesn't protect you. but it makes you weaker. It absolutely does and you know, nowadays there's a big interest in. so-called dopamine fasts. I I think they. have their place. You know, if people. been have been engaging in things that. are high dopamine evoking behaviors, there is a place for this. This is one. of the routes to sobriety. Beautiful. work by my colleague at Stanford, uh Dr. Anna Lembke. She wrote Dopamine Nation,

incredible book about dopamine in the. context of addiction, but all kinds of. addiction. Uh she talks about this. There is a role for dopamine fast. Really moving away from intensely. pleasurable activities for about 30 days. is necessary for some people to reset. Yeah. But it's naive for any of us to think. that then you go back into the world and. you're not being bombarded with. temptation of different kinds. I mean, the whole idea is to bring the system. back into balance so that you can notice. the subtle inflections, right? I guess.

the the the meditators and yogis I. always love the language they use would. be like the kind of subtle After. meditation, you can notice the kind of. subtle ripples in life, right? Whereas. if you're just hard charging all the. time, you miss so much. Yes. Again, I'm using the wrong language. here. Yeah, beautiful. But I think that um so dopamine fast. have their place, but better to have. your hands on the steering wheel, accelerator, and brake of all these. mechanisms. And to go through It's only. when, you know, the car has been wrecked. that it needs to go into the repair. shop. Most of us don't need a dopamine. fast. We need to understand how dopamine.

works. We need to do exactly what you. described earlier, which is to extend. the time domain so that we think about, am I getting dopamine later also, or is. this just a quick up and down kind of. event? Then I think we can move through. life in a much more adaptive way. And then you mentioned, obviously when. we talk about relationships, you know, we talked about how dopamine is there at. the beginning, but then we talk about. serotonin and oxytocin, these inner. feelings, which I love that description. also of like how dopamine is this. pursuit of external things, and oxytocin.

and serotonin are more about how we feel. what we have. I think that was a another. great visual, and I love how you speak. in symbols more than you know, like that. You know, it's. I really Everything you've been sharing. today, I can visualize it, and I really. enjoy visual learning. And so when you. were speaking earlier about how you can. visualize a symbol even if you don't. have it physically. And even when you. said that to me, I'm like, "Oh, that's. really fascinating that dopamine is. that, oxytocin and serotonin is this.". With oxytocin and serotonin,

we know that a lot of the habits you. just mentioned, they are what create. this balance, right? So, the reason why. people are talking about decreasing. dopamine, I guess, is because we've. noticed that dopamine is shooting. through the roof. And often, what we do. for oxytocin and oxytocin and serotonin. are not really that balanced across the. board. Uh what are Let's look at relationships. and go, "Is there a need to have. dopamine in long-term relationships? Or. are serotonin and oxytocin enough?" And. not just relationships, that applies to.

career, it applies applies to. everything, I feel. Yeah, absolutely. Um there's a wonderful. book about this, written by a. psychoanalyst in a slightly different. context. The book um the title of the. book is Can Love Last? And And it's an. interesting book. The It's operates on. the premise that when we first meet. somebody and we want this in the context. of a romantic relationship, and we. desire a romantic relationship with. them, it's very much about. objectification of the other person. And. I don't mean objectification in the. traditional sense, but we don't rely on. them yet, right? We only rely on the.

ability to pursue and get them, right? Or for them to for us to pursue them, however. Or the exactly. But we don't rely on. them for safety at all. If that evolves. to become a. romantic relationship, right? With. trust, then what happens is there's a. true dependency there. If one person. were to leave for any reason, die or. leave or cheat or break up, it is truly. devastating to the safety mechanisms of. the brain and body, right? It's a. reactivation, actually, of a lot of the. machinery that was designed for.

attachment between infant and parent, right? As it just as an important aside, the all the work on attachment that was. done by Bowlby and Main and others in. psychology of taking deliberately taking. babies away from their mothers and then. reuniting them and evaluating the. responses, batching them into different. all that circuitry isn't lost as we grow. up. It's repurposed for romantic. attachment. There's no question about. that. No question about that. We just. operate in the different domains of. anxiety becomes about waiting for a text. message as opposed to, you know, mother.

to come back in the room or or nursing, etc. So, same circuitry reapplied. As we advance into relationships, we. become more dependent on people, but. the idea and that it's touched on quite. a lot in this book, Can Love Last, is. that there is a need from time to time. in some relationships to bring the. dopamine element back in. Now, certain. cultures have actually built this in in. a very strategic way of actually having. men and women not physically contact one. another for several weeks out of each.

month in order to maintain the kind of. quote unquote excitement of a. relationship. Wow. Nowadays, we tend to have this model of. lover and best friend and sometimes even. business partner, right? Literally. Which for some people can work and for. other people can quash all the. excitement, right? It really depends. And especially nowadays where people are. working a lot more from home, there. isn't a tendency for people to spend. much time apart and to miss one another. Missing one another, the yearning for. the other person, is a beautiful thing. It's a painful but beautiful thing. What.

is that yearning? That yearning is the. pain of the lack of dopamine and. serotonin. I actually just came back. from a a trip and we were visiting a. couple, friends of ours, and they said, it was really beautiful. They said, they'd been together a long time. They. said, they've had three nights apart in. their entire relationship. Wow. during that time apart. And I thought, that's beautiful. Now, for some people, that's a beautiful model. For other. people, that would be excessive and it. actually could eliminate a a number of. the positive neurochemical features of. the relationship.

Yeah. And there's a lot of variation around. this. So, dopamine is required to quote. unquote re-up the excitement in a. relationship. How is that achieved? Well, dopamine is the molecule, as you. recall, of reward prediction or of. novelty. So, doing things that are not. expected is great. Routine is great for. serotonin and oxytocin, predictability. Routine, predictability, same thing. Safety, routine, predictability. Serotonin, oxytocin system, no question. about it. Dopamine is the neurochemical of novelty.

and pursuing new things. So, for couples. that are very set in their ways and feel. very safe and homey together, wonderful, but creating ways in which they miss one. another or creating new experiences for. them to kind of re-up the dopamine in. the relationship can have a a. tremendously positive effect. And I look. forward to a day where neuroscience is. actually incorporated into relationship. design in an intelligent and and. respectful way that they're respectful, meaning that there are differences. Yes. But we see a lot that people will just.

go out and get a new relationship, right? I'm of the mind that, unless, you. know, it's it's dangerous situation, better to probably avoid divorce, right? Um certainly for the sake of children. Some. I've heard, of course, that divorces can. rescue relationships, too. I understand. there's a lot of nuance. But I think. everyone would prefer, emotionally, financially, etc., to be able to be in a. great relationship for a long period of. time. Yeah. And so, I think that. understanding that the the push-pull. between dopamine and serotonin is key.

And just to remember that missing. someone, yearning for someone, is the. anticipation of how great it's going to. feel when together. Absolutely. I think that that could that could go a. long way. And also, for people that get. very, very, very excited about the new. person, the new thing, just be wary that not everyone's. dopamine system works the same way. Yeah. And with dopamine, it's great to have. increases in dopamine, but where it. passes a threshold and it's very big. peaks, where there's a peak, there's a. crash, and the crash is always.

asymmetrically deeper than the peak. There is no way around this. And so, learn to temper the excitement if you're. an excitable person. And. and I would say learn to ramp up the. excitement a little bit if you're. somebody who's not so easily. overwhelmed. Yeah, definitely. I mean, me and my wife. we've been married for 6 years and. nearly together for 10, which. You seem to have an amazing from the ex-. from the outside, you know. I I would say I always like to clarify. that I don't think. you know, I grew up wanting a Hollywood.

romance and I my views of love were. defined by movies and music and I. realized that is not what love looks. like at all. And my wife has been a. great teacher to me in that space of. showing me what a beautiful relationship. can look like, but it doesn't look like. how we think it is. And I think often. when people see me and my wife, they may. think we have. that what version too. And I would just. I'm very careful about the idea that we. have a fantastic relationship, but it. isn't fantastic for the reasons that TV. or movies has convinced us that. relationships are good. But we spend.

around 3 months apart every single year, not by design or choice, just by work. and life. And I haven't seen my wife for. the last 3 months. It will be one more. month before I see her. yearning is real. I cannot wait to see her, but at the. same time I get to focus on myself. I. get to have alone time. I get to refill. and refuel myself. I get to discover new. parts of my identity. I get to learn a. new skill. Like so many healthy And of. course, we don't have children yet, so. we don't have that responsibility. Um. but but going to what you said, I I see.

so much value in in how we can be open. to these ideas. I think that's the. point, that it's not about there's one. size fits all or one right way. But I. want to shift Andrew with our. conversation to something you brought up. earlier because. and and if you don't feel comfortable. talking about it, we don't, but I I. heard and I I've I've become aware that. you are you have tattoos. You have you. have symbols. Tim Ferriss outed me on his podcast. Thanks, Tim. Uh yeah, I do. I am you. know, I grew up.

a child of an academic and. but then when I was a teenager I got. involved in skateboarding punk rock. music. I still have a lot of friends in. that world. So the photographer for our. podcast is from DC and Nike. skateboarding Mike Blayback. I have good. friends in that world become friendly. with guys like Danny Way and. you know, it's. amazing one of the greatest. skateboarders of all time by the way. I. mean he and I aren't close friends but. we become friendly and for me that's an. you know, I grew up in that and yeah, those were cultures that made a lot of.

sense to me given where I was at the. time and they have always felt to me. like my first non-biological family. So. I started getting tattooed pretty young. too young and I will say to all of those. out there that are thinking about it. think carefully. It is they are permanent. Things have changed around this. I. always cover up my tattoos for the. following reason. when when doing public facing work which. is that. um. generally when I'm trying to teach. neuroscience, I'm trying to download. ideas and transmit them. So I just want.

to avoid any distractions about the. symbols that are meaningful to me. because they just aren't relevant in. that context. I have a good friend who explained it. this way. He said well, you know, maybe. tattoos should be an important part of. the hiring process because rather than. covering them up if you have a a lot of. tattoos, it is evidence that you can sit. still for a long period of [laughter]. time while in intense pain. So that's. true. I'll also say this. I was fortunate to know good tattooers. So a good tattoo there are there's a. range out there. are. Yes. And. and along the lines of them being.

permanent, I will also say that black. and gray last longer doesn't fade than. color. So I'll say all that. what's your most. uh. What's the symbol on your body and I'm. sure you have many but if you were to. pick one not your favorite but one that. feels really meaningful right now in. your life? Yeah. Well, first of all, it's funny cuz. people often will say what are you going. to do when you're like 60 or 65 you got. all these tattoos and I just think okay, well, first of all, now I have an. incentive to stay in shape and second of. all, um, you know, I actually worry. about them disappearing cuz then I'd. have to have them all redone and they.

were pretty painful. It took a long. time. I got a lot of them. So, uh, took. a long time. It's been 25 years or more. of getting tattooed. So, um, I can't pick just one, but I do have a. picture of my, uh, bulldog mastiff. Costello and a paw print of his. life-size or actual size. And I loved. that dog. I had to put him down, um, the. while Yeah, and it was just, you know, the last line in the contract of good. dog ownership is that you're going to. put him down before they're suffering. and it was a It actually turned out to.

be a beautiful. transition. I I did it, you know, in a. beautiful location. He went easy and I. don't want to talk about too long cuz. I'll cry out of love. I know it's I I. still cry when I think about him, but. it's not sadness. It took me like 3. months to realize. I was like, I always. cry when I talk about Costello or I want. to cry and I realize it's cuz I love. him. The feeling isn't sadness. He just. he had such an incredible dog. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I feel it in my. heart right now. And anyone that knows. me, I I I loved that dog like crazy. So,

there's that one and then, um, and I don't want to focus on negative. things, but again, it's a feeling of. love. I talked about these three. advisors that I had earlier. I was blessed with amazing advisors and. sadly, uh, first one died of suicide, second one cancer who I was very close. to my third one cancer. So, the the the. morbid joke among people that know me is. you don't want me to work for you. Now, I can make that joke because all three. of them had an incredible spirit about. life. So, I actually have all of their. initials or symbols of them tattooed on. my body and I miss them every day, but I.

also, you know, I think there is. something powerful to embedding. something in your body. Some people wear. pendants. Um, obviously, some people. would decide to get tattoos. Um, and you. know, I've been encouraged at times. people are like, you know, just show. your tattoos, be out there with them. I. want to be very clear. I'm not ashamed. of them at all. I'm proud of them. But, yeah, but for me if I'm teaching or I'm trying. to be an educator, I really want to. emphasize the information. I also think, listen, the world's a complicated place.

and we can't always control people's. interpretations of why we do things. So. for the young people out there thinking. about getting tattoos, um just. understand that's the world we live in. Although I think nowadays people are are. more accepting. So. Yeah, thank you for sharing both of. those. Thank you. I I wanted that more. I I just. appreciate hearing about because we. spoke about symbols and. Yeah. and and that for that reason I really. wanted to understand the symbols that. you know. Yeah, for me something about having, you. know, um. having experiences that I've. externalized to the surface of my body.

feels right. It's weird, they feel like. my skin now. They feel like birthmarks. I never look at in I never would get up. in the morning look in the mirror and go. like there's a tattoo and there's a. tattoo. Normally I just think like, oh. yeah, like it's just it just kind of. becomes part of you. As as you know, because obviously you. I only have three. I had a plan to. the number, it's the it's the important. to have my whole upper body tattooed. when I was younger and then I became a. monk. So I haven't had any since. But up until I got my first one I was. 16, second one I was 18 and then the.

last one when I was like 21. And I did. them all and then I became a monk and. then I haven't had any since. Yeah. And my wife's been the other way around. like since we've been married she's had. like she had one before we married and. actually had like seven more so she's. Well, it's like I don't wear any jewelry. except a watch but yeah, tattoos for me. have been um it's been a fun journey and. I I'm 46 years old now. So uh I plan to. keep going, you. I love that. Yeah, uh there's there's at this point. it's um it's I suppose it's. neuroplasticity. It's built into me. Andrew, you've been so kind, gracious.

with your time. Uh. I am. you know, I I've always known how. phenomenally intelligent and and smart. and sharp and. deeply studied you are but I'm really. grateful I got to experience your heart. today in so many ways and uh to me that. that beautiful synergy you have is is is. really uh meaningful to me to. experience. I'm I'm so grateful to you. for being here, for taking the time, for. for being We've been in touch for a. couple of years maybe even it's been or.

you know, through messaging, but to. really experience you in full today has. been been a treat for me. Uh we end. every On Purpose episode with a final. five. These have to be answered in one. word to one sentence maximum. Uh which which for this academic might. be a little bit. It might be hard, but we will try. So, Andrew Huberman, these are your final. five. Uh the first question is what is. the best advice you've ever received in. any area of life? Know thyself. Right. The oracle said that and it's absolutely. true. We have to be good scientists of.

ourselves. and understand where we have. talents, competency, and or challenges, and then work with. those. Beautiful. All right, second question. What is the worst advice you've ever. received or heard? That everything is just experience. You. know, the idea that all experiences are. equivalent. Um I would love to think. that um. all our steps lead us to enlightenment. kind of thing, but we have I do believe.

that we or at least I need to be far. more intentional than that and that we. can be. Beautiful. Uh question number three. What is something that you didn't value. before, but you've learned to value now? Almost embarrassed to say it, but um. family. You know, I've relied very. heavily on friendship as a deep source. of of uh reinforcement in my life. I've. leaned hard into that for many many. decades. Um. I think in recently I've become quite. moved by the the supports within my.

family that I did hadn't realized that. uh really set me up so well to um to do. what I want to do in life. Beautiful. Love hearing that. Uh. question number four. What's the first. thing you do in the morning and the last. thing you do at night? First thing I do in the morning is get. outside and get sunlight. And if the sun. isn't up, I flip on all the lights and. then I go get sunlight. I also drink a. glass of water. Before I go to sleep at. night, Yoga Nidra? You're not doing that at. night. You do that during the. No, I actually I think about those three.

people I was talking about before. I do, every night. I just think about. them. I don't know. It's been a long. time now that accumulated over several. decades and um, yeah, I think about them every night. I. I don't even think to do it. It I just. do it. I'm just trying to. Yeah, I've I've uh, I had lost one of. mine. mentors. The others are still alive. right now. One of them had stage four. brain cancer and just couple of years. ago. And I I when you said that I was like, yeah, I I know yeah, know that feels. like so, yeah. All right, uh,

fifth and final question. If you could. create one law or set one habit that. everyone had to do every day for the. rest of their life, what would it be? I. think I know what's going to be, but I I. have to ask you. Well, since most people assume it's. sunlight viewing, I'll just I'll just. assume they're doing that anyway. I would. die a happy person if people would adopt. a practice of. learning to deliberately calm down. Whether or not through non-sleep.

depressed or a couple deep breaths, um, find a tool because I really believe. that much of the misfortune and pain of. life could be avoided if people learn to. calm down. I also know that there's a. lot more joy to access when we do. Andrew, you're phenomenal. You blew my. mind multiple times today. I hope this. is not going to be the only time. uh, that we hang out. We agreed the. first time we spoke that the podcast was. an excuse to build our friendship. That's right. Uh, I feel.

like there is I this is a podcast. episode that I would highly recommend. that everyone listens to again, takes notes. Uh when when you make those notes, try. and find those elements that you want to. put into practice. Uh I would highly recommend that. everyone who's listening to this episode. go and subscribe to and listen to. Andrew's podcast, which is. a wealth of wisdom in everything we've. discussed today. Today we've tipped the. tip of the iceberg. We've dived into so. many different areas. You'll find. episodes on every single aspect of what.

we've discussed on his podcast. Highly. recommend that you go and check it out. for the episodes that really connect. We. didn't even dive into your incredible. work deeply on vision or on sugar and. diet and you know, we haven't even We. didn't even get to go then. We'll do. that hopefully another time. Uh but. please make sure that you tag Andrew and. I on Twitter, maybe uh on Instagram to. let us know what connected with you, what resonated with you, what is. something that you're going to try this. week because of this episode, how those. habits are going. I love seeing you put.

these ideas and insights into practice. That is the whole goal of living a life. that's on purpose. Uh Andrew, I thank. you from the bottom of my heart. Uh. express my deepest gratitude for for. doing this. And yeah, any final words, anything you want to share that's on. your mind or heart that you want to put. out there in the world? Over to you. Thank you. I I want to genuinely say. thank you. Again, we've known each other. somewhat at distance for a long time. now. It's been a tremendous pleasure. You know, I I look to social media and a.

lot in science and a lot of different. landscapes for inspiration. It's been a. remarkable thing to see what you've. done. And and it's so great to meet in. person because I knew you were the real. deal. But there but you know, I'll I'll. just say this. I I know many people. already feel this, but I just want to. say that. to meet you in person is is a real honor. for me. And I just so admire what you're. doing. And I know the intent behind it. is real. And the way you show up to it.

is incredible. And so I'm just uh I'm. floating on the on the gratitude of of. being able to be here today. face-to-face. Thank you so much. Andrew, thank you so much. Everyone, make sure you share this episode, pass. it along to a friend who needs to hear. it. As I said, you can obviously go and. subscribe and listen to Andrew's. podcast, which is called Huberman Lab, uh which you will find on all podcast. platforms. So, make sure you do that. And, of course, follow him on Instagram, as you can tell he loves to be there, too. Highly active, very present. Make. sure you follow him for more insights.

and more intelligence. Thank you so much. for watching this episode. Please do. share it, and I'll see you next time. If you want even more videos just like. this one, make sure you subscribe and. click on the boxes over here. [music]. I'm also excited to let you know that. you can now get my book Think Like a. Monk from thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description [music]. to make sure you order today.