“If You Hear It, RUN! - The 1 Phrase Narcissists Use To CONTROL You" | Dr. Ramani

Narcissistic people are attracted to. people who will give them supply, physical attractiveness, status, praise. So, you just being a nice person and. praising someone could actually be what. makes you attractive to them. So, people. may think, well, does that mean I have. to stop being me? I'd say no. They may. be attracted to you and you may be. compelled for a minute. But the key is. then to know how to get off the carousel. before it starts going too fast. Before. we jump into this episode, I'd like to. invite you to join this community to. hear more interviews that will help you.

become happier, healthier, and more. healed. All I want you to do is click on. the subscribe button. I love your. support. It's incredible to see all your. comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with. you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The number one. health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only, Jay. Shetty. I want to start off, Dr. Ramani, by. again clarifying terms because I think. we're living at a time where there's so.

many terms on TikTok and YouTube and. social media and often they transpire. into how we talk to our family members, friends. What is the difference between a. narcissist and narcissistic personality. disorder? start there because this is already. muddying the waters so much, right? So, narcissism is a personality style, right? There's lots of different. personality styles out there. Certainly, narcissism is a more maladaptive. personality style because it puts people. at odds with other people. It's not good. for their relationship, but it is a.

personality style. And in and of itself, it's not a disorder. There is something. called narcissistic personality. disorder, which is when a person is. presenting with these various. narcissistic patterns we've talked. about. The low and variable empathy, the. entitlement, the grandiosity, the. arrogance, the envy, the admiration and. validation-seeking, that whole laundry. list, the egocentricity, all the. selfishness, all that stuff, right? So, all of that is happening. It's chronic, it's pervasive, it shows up in their. life in various whole bunch of different.

relationships. The difference is they actually go to a. therapist's office who's licensed and. trained to issue a diagnosis. and that therapist determines like, yep, I'm seeing these patterns, they're. consistent, they're across situations, and they may assign them that diagnosis. The vast majority of people who have. this personality style are never going. to be in a practitioner's office. who's going to make that determination. And it gets tricky, right? Because to.

call something a disorder. raises a whole bunch of issues. Personally, Jay, if I ran the world, I. think we'd get rid of this diagnosis. I. think we get nothing out of it. It. doesn't I don't even think it helps the. clients. A lot of clinicians don't issue. it because it feels stigmatizing. There's a whole host of reasons I think. it shouldn't be, but it is right now. Here's what you've got to remember when. we look at narcissism in the world, right? So, there's people out there who. are narcissistic. They might be mildly. narcissistic and little bit more. emotionally immature and just sort of.

selfish and shallow all the way up to. severe where it can be malignant and. and it can be uh coercive and. manipulative and all of that. And. there's all the stuff in between. This. book is really focused on the in. between, right? So, most people aren't dealing with someone. coercive. That's And many are and that's. a much more severe issue that is. probably beyond the scope of the book. But most people who are dealing with the. mild narcissism. they're frustrated and annoyed, but. they're not.

devastated and hurt like we see in that. sort of middle level of narcissism, right? So, the difference is literally that sort of. mechanical point. They weren't seen by. someone. And I don't know that any of I. Listen, I'll be honest with you. If I. met someone at a dinner party and they. start telling me their life, I might. even think in my head, I've got a hypothesis clinically what's. happening. In no universe we occupy. would I ever say to that person, even if. I talked to them for 2 hours, I think. you have generalized anxiety disorder. I.

think you have bipolar 2. I just. wouldn't say it, right? It It's not the. setting, it's not the situation. I might. strongly suggest say, "Hey, you should. talk to someone." Right? So, what get. Where it gets interesting is the mistake. a lot of people make is number one, they. assume that if a person has narcissistic. personality disorder that their. narcissism is more severe. Not. necessarily. There are people out there. with NPD, narcissistic personality. disorder, whose narcissism actually is. not as severe as people who are never. diagnosed because they never went into.

that situation. So, you see what I'm. saying? So, there's people out there who. are malignant narcissistic people, they're never seen by anyone. We can. speculate, we could spitball, we'd say, "Yeah, it's probably the case." But, that person with NPD may simply seen a. clinician. The other piece though here. too is that what it's doing is it's. creating this very sort of strange space. where. people are saying, "These are the patterns I'm seeing in a. partner, parent, whomever. I think they. might be narcissistic." And the. internet, as it does, is very quick to. shame that person. Who do you think you.

are? How could you think this about. someone? And this person has probably. already been really hurt, really. devastated by this relationship, is now. being shamed for sharing like, "I think. this might be what's happening." It's. also creating this or really painful. space. So, suffice it to say, I think in the public conversation about. narcissism, we should only call it. narcissism. Getting into the weeds on. NPD is really getting on this sort of. subtle clinical point, and it just. creates it makes a lot of noise here, so.

we're not able to have the clear. conversation that these personality. styles are harming the people who are in. these relationships. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Why do. you think it is that all of a sudden it. seems, at least culturally, that more. people are interacting with narcissists. Like you'll be talking to a friend and. they'll be like, "Oh god, I'm so glad I. just got out of a relationship with a. narcissist." Or "I'm struggling. I'm. healing." As your book teaches you how. to, like "I'm healing from this. relationship I had. I think they were.

narcissistic." Like why is it all of a. sudden we're feeling this kind of. awareness in culture? Has it always been. there? Has it increased? What what's. happened? It's always been there, Jay. I. think as long as there were people, it. has been there. And I always say to. people, open up a history book. I'd say. about 75% of the people they've written. about in that history book were probably. quite narcissistic. Narcissistic people. make history. They In fact, honestly, they often are responsible for some of. the greatest innovations we've ever.

known. Doesn't make them nice people. I'd say, let them innovate, just don't. go on a date with them. You know, that's. really what we're talking about here. So, there is an out-of-the-boxness to. them. There's a fantasy that they live. in that they often feel compelled to. create. So, you better believe that. they've always been there. I don't know. that we would have had the leaps and. bounds we've had in some ways without. that, right? So, that said, it's always. been there, but we never had a name for. it. Remember, psychology is a field in. its infancy. What's it been around? 150, 175 years? So, it's an it's evolving.

And so, this concept of talking about. someone's personality in this way, maybe. since the late 1800s we've even been. having that conversation. People have. been doing narcissistic stuff to. partners, children, family members since. time immemorial. We just didn't have a. name for it. I think at some level. because until recently, I think almost. all cultures were probably much more. authoritarianly, patriarchally,

patriarchically organized. I think we're. seeing sort of bigger conversations. around that. So, I think there was. almost a strange sort of universal. radical acceptance that some people are. just really jerky. And let's just follow. what they're saying. And and so we. didn't we just didn't even think of it. that way, but we see history books of. kings who were ogres and invaders who. were horrific, and these were not nice. people. They were the narcissists of. their time. Now, to your other question, why are we talking about it like even 10.

years ago, a person wouldn't have said. my partner or my boyfriend. but they would have said first of all, we didn't have the platforms, but if. they did talk about they're such a jerk. Why do they keep doing this to me? I. can't figure this out. Everyone has always been having the. conversations. We didn't we're using. different language in now, and if. anything, we now have a construct. We. and and we now understand this hangs. together. The point of this book was. really to say there are people with. these personalities, they're out there.

The way they show up in relationships is. pretty consistently the same, and instead of blaming yourself and. wondering what you could do, it's not. you. It's really them, and they're having. their process and their journey, and. probably not going to get the help they. need to defend it against it, but. rolling up and turning your life into a. human sacrifice to please or win over or. prove something to an. unwinable over person. I have watched. people waste lifetimes doing this. You. know, and it's even particularly.

compelling if it's a parent, but even if. it's a long-term intimate relationship. with someone, especially if they got. into the relationship young. So, this. has always been a thing. Yeah, no, that's that's that makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate how our vocabulary. evolves with time, and as that expands. and extends, it allows us to better. label and understand things. And I know. that this book is primarily about the. relationship, a narcissistic. relationship, and then the healing. journey. But before we dive into that, I. wanted to ask you a question. How do you.

stop attracting a narcissist? Like, is. there a way to not attract a narcissist? J, I wish I could say yes, And here's. where I want to actually give my props. to everyone who's listening out there. who has attracted a narcissist. You know. why you attracted a narcissist? Because. you're attractive. And what I mean by. attractive is you may be physically. beautiful, it may be your physique, it. may be your. something you know, it may be your. social status, it may be that you could. do something for them. What's attractive.

to them may not be attractive to the. rest of us. You're attractive to them. because you're attractive, because you. may have power of some kind in the. world. When I say power, I don't mean. like you're a leader, I mean you're. self-possessed. Many people get into. these relationships. We have this. mistaken assumption that the people who. get into these relationships are. shrinking violets who have low. self-esteem. Absolutely not. I've I've. got to tell you some of the people I've. seen get into these relationships and. I'm like, "Woo, I should have your self-esteem.". They're They're They're They're strong. and they're They know who they are and.

they're saying, "This thing dismantled. me brick by brick. I was really well put. together when I met this person." Right? So, this isn't about a person who. doesn't have self-esteem. It can be, but. it's definitely not an absolute. Narcissistic people are attracted to. people who will give them supply. What is supply for every narcissistic. person might be a little different, but. it's usually physical attractiveness, status, praise. So, you just being a. nice person and praising someone. could actually be what makes you.

attractive to them. So, people may. think, "Well, does that mean I have to. stop being me?" I'd say no. They may be attracted to you. and you may be compelled for a minute, but the key is then to know how to get. off the carousel before it starts going. too fast. Mhm. Good answer. Good answer, Emily. It. ma- It makes a lot of sense and again, it's not you. It's not you. It goes back. to that, which I like. But talk me. through the consistent You talked about. narcissism being consistent. Walk me. through the consistent pattern of a a.

relationship so that anyone who's. listening can because I think like. you're saying, a lot of us sometimes. feel scared to admit. that we might even be with a narcissist. because it's it's scary to accept that. and admit that and have that realization. because we think it's something to do. with us. We think we've wasted time. There can be a sunk cost bias of I. thought I had a future with this person. So, walk me through the pattern of a. narcissistic relationship. Let's just. talk briefly about their piece first.

because it helps us understand the. pattern. They have traits, things like I. talked about, the entitlement, the lack. of empathy, the grandiosity, the. arrogance, the selfishness. I want you to think of a narcissistic. person as a volcano. And that volcano has got this bubbling. lava. And the lava for the narcissistic. person is shame and insecurity. So, they want to be able to plug the top. of that volcano, right? And that plug is. all this stuff, the entitlement, the. grandiosity, I'm perfect, I'm great. It's this So, it it keeps all that stuff.

under wraps. That's not a conscious. process, right? So, but every so often. in life, something's going to push that. lid off to the side, which might be. feedback, a criticism, somebody ends a. relationship with them, whatever it is, something their day doesn't go the way. they want, they get stuck in traffic and. they're late to something, they don't. get the table they want in a restaurant, whatever it may be that nudges that. manhole cover over and the lava starts. spilling out. And that lava. is their rage. and their anger because their shame has.

been shown. All of this is unconscious. So, all these patterns in the. relationship, the way they show up in the narcissistic. person is manipulation, invalidation of the other person, minimization of what another person is. going through, uh gaslighting, rage and reactivity, uh future faking, which means promises. are made and broken just to keep a. person sort of on the hook. Um. there will be uh blame shifting. They. won't take responsibility. They'll.

always blame the other person, which is. why people in these relationships always. tend to blame themselves. There's a lot. of deceit, betrayal, lying, infidelity. There is neglect. Over time, they just. give less and less and less to the. relationship, and the person in the. relationship is trying to make do on the. tiniest tiniest bits of being noticed. That's how they show up in the. relationship. Everything in the. relationship is about them getting. supply and validation. They have. absolutely no interest in the needs,

wants, and honestly subjective reality. of the other person in the relationship. Over time, the other person gets almost. is considered an inconvenience. If you. want something, you're an inconvenience. Much like this cup, cup's convenient. when I want to drink for it, but if the. cup all of a sudden said, "Hey, can you. take me to CVS on the way home?" Like, what, cup? You're a cup. Don't tell me. that. So, they view us in that sort of. objectified lens. All of these dynamics. mean that over time, in order for the. relationship to work, the other person.

has to entirely sacrifice themselves and. buy into the reality system of the. narcissistic person. But, that doesn't. all happen overnight. Often times, at. least in an adult narcissistic. relationship, whether it's an intimate. relationship or friendship, that early. phase is very idealized and seductive. It's called love bombing, but it's. really this phase where they're winning. not only winning you over with gestures. and tactics, but with attunement and attention or. seeming attunement and attention. They. pay intense attention to you. But, what.

you realize afterwards is some of that. intense attention. was them learning things about you that. were going to be turned around and used. against you down the road. That's often. a point of devastation for a person who. says, "I was vulnerable with this. person. I told them things that I'd. never told anyone before." And then 6. months in, I was being shamed and humiliated and. and, you know, it was being used to sort. of destabilize me. Mhm. There was a. point where that love bombing phase then. starts heading into a place where. there's 10 good things, one bad thing.

Oh, one bad thing. Everyone has a bad. day. Nine bad thing nine good things one. bad thing. Over time though that ratio. pretty much comes out like maybe one to. one. So now you're having as much difficult. challenging stuff and then these little. sprinklings of good things happening. That's the origin of the trauma bond. Mhm. That back and forth good bad hot. cold I'm here I'm not here. is where people will often find. themselves falling into a cycle of.

justifying blaming themselves cuz it was. so great. It was great for two or three. months. So how did it not become great? Maybe I'm doing something. So the person will literally It's almost. like, you know, when you open a bag, you. know, you're trying to find something in. a bag and you take everything out of the. bag chaotically and it's all around in. the airport on the ground and it was. that one little like your headphones. That's what people in narcissistic. relationships do. They open the bag that. is themselves and pull everything out. trying to figure out what is wrong with. me. Why did we go from baby where can I.

take you to dinner I'll take you. anywhere to. what like please stop interrupting me. and you're you're thinking what just. happened. And so. basically once a narcissistic person. almost feels kind of confident they've. got your supply whether it's a promise. maybe you live with them maybe you've. really committed into a long-term. relationships you said I love yous or. whatever. that they've got you where they want you. then they're sort of almost not. narcissistic folks are also very novelty. seeking. They kind of get bored easily. So you being around.

from time to time they'll be into you. but then from other times they won't. They do like they do like the idea that. someone's a constant source of supply. And then over time there can be a real. process of discard. They just really It. can feel like they just don't care at. all anymore. Basically what they do is. they no longer fulfill the roles and. responsibilities of what it means to be. in a close relationship, which is. empathy, compassion, kindness, attunement, self-awareness. These are. the responsibilities we have in a human. relationship, and they do not fulfill.

them. I even hate putting them as. responsibilities. I think that they come. automatically for a healthy person. And. then, if you do decide to leave, or even. if they decide to leave, you start to enter potentially a. cat-and-mouse game of hoovering, where. they'll pull you back, see how you're. doing. Sometimes they'll even figure. out, "Oh, they're happy now. Let me go. see if I can spin that around a little. bit." Wow. Wow. I mean, those. patterns sound so painful.

Mhm. Mhm. And they found they sound so. strenuous and stressful and, you know, heartbreaking in so many ways. Why What are the excuses. that people keep telling themselves? Mhm. And what justifications. stop us from healing? Mhm. I mean, I go. even more foundationally on that. Why do. we justify, right? When you think about. one of the most primal human needs, it's attachment. We need other people.

We are not meant to be solo acts. Human. beings are tribal. We We evolved in. social groups. Our brains didn't change that much. We. still need our people. We need love. We. do. We need connection. And people say, "What about the. narcissist?" I said, "They need it more. than anyone. They want all the supply, right?" So, we need to be together. But that especially in a child, that. need for attachment is everything. And if a child has an un-attuned parent. or even an abusive parent, the child.

doesn't have the option to say, "I think. I'm going to split up with them and see. what I'm going to go on parent hinge and. see if I can find someone new." Right? Doesn't work like that. The child. has to hold this parent in esteem, which. means the child then needs to devalue. themselves. What am I doing wrong? How. could I be more? And the child really. learns how to be everything that parent. wants and needs to the detriment of. their own needs, right? our backstories. This is all This are exactly. So, now. let's just jump that to adulthood, right? So, the child comes up with all kinds of.

fantasies. But in adulthood, they may be things. like everyone has a bad day, relationships are tough, I'm no picnic myself, they've been working really hard, we did have a good weekend, they did. tell me I love you. I mean, I could go. on for the next 2 hours about all the. justifications I've heard, right? So, the justifications. are not not only proliferate, they come. easily. And Jay, they're reinforced by.

the world, right? Cuz the world will. say, "Oh, relationships are tough. Maybe. they're just having a bad day, right?". So, now what you're saying is completely. in line with sort of what the prevailing. wisdom would be. And you do that enough. every time these really invalidating, destabilizing things that cut to the. core of your identity happen, the people who tend to get more stuck in. these relationships, quite frankly, are. the more empathic people. While. narcissistic people are attracted to. people who are whatever supply. attractive they are to them,

the people who get stuck. are the people who are more vulnerable. to trauma bonding and who have more. empathy and as a result are more likely. to make those excuses and. justifications, right? They're going to. be more open to the idea that there's. there's always different ways to There's. another point of view. That's what. empathic people do. And that's how it. happens. But in a trauma bonded. relationship, and it's also about. cognitive dissonance, right? That we. don't like We don't like the tension of. inconsistency within ourselves. So, we're always trying to make it fit. And. how do we relieve that tension and make.

it fit? We justify. Then we can maintain the status quo. And. human beings are also homeostatic. creatures. We like the status. I want to. keep living here. I want to keep having. this routine. I don't want to find a new. place to put my toothbrush. I don't want. to wake up in a new place even if you. kind of might want to. Over time, many. survivors will say, "I don't even care. if I wake up in you know, in a random. place as long as I'm not waking up. here." But how much terribleness had to. happen to the person in that period of. time? And so, it's a person is just.

getting sort of slowly distanced from. their true nature. The longer a person. is in a narcissistic relationship, the. more they literally have to abandon. themselves. Mhm. That's what I wanted to touch on. actually where you got to is. you know, what is the impact of. narcissistic abuse? Like how because I. think often we also think like, "Oh. yeah, well you should know that. you know, he was a waste of time or you. Well, look what look what she did to. you. Like you should be. aware." Like you know, it's it's almost.

like we assume that it should logically. make sense to someone that they should. be happy that they're now away from this. person. But often with people who've. been with narcissistic people, especially empathetic people, they're. still saying, "Well, I hope they're. okay. I hope that person's okay. Like I. know they're struggling." What is the. impact of someone who's experienced. narcissistic abuse on a deep scientific. psychological level? Like what is what. is actually going on for them? So, what. we're seeing pretty consistently across.

and now I can say now thousands of. people we've looked at who've. experienced these relationships is. consistently we see. a. problematic level of rumination, regret, anxiety, sadness, self-blame, self-doubt, a um a sense of hyper-vigilance, a. social anxiety that comes from it. And I. want to put a pin in that hyper-vigilant. piece because I want to come back to. that in a moment. An interesting sort of. mild dissociation where a person has.

become dissociated from their needs, their wants, and their true nature. because that has been so consistently. invalidated in this relationship, you. see problems with sleep. You see You see. the neurovegetative stuff we see in. depression, like the changes in. appetite. You see problems with. concentration. What's interesting though. about survivors of narcissistic abuse is. that some of them may actually develop. clinical depression, but most don't. And. what I'll see is these are folks when. they are surrounded by healthy supports,

therapists, friends, they're animated. They're love like they don't seem like a. person who's under that heavy weight of. depression, right? So, it is really the. when the relationship is present, it's. taking its toll, and it is why so many. survivors of narcissistic abuse are able. to roll up and be terrific parents. despite what's happening. See what I'm. saying? Cuz it's not a It's not a mental. illness. It's a normative reaction to. this. But even with that hypervigilance, there's a lot of talk about how. nice survivors of narcissistic abuse.

are. We recently did an Instagram live. about this, and it was just me sort of. yammering on about something I'd heard. that day. I was really struck by the. strength it had in our community because. we talk about empathy, empathy, empathy. in survivors. But one thing I'm really. seeing in my. I'm getting so many clients now at this. point and other people telling their. stories is that the empathy is almost. functioning as a bit of a trauma. response. Like, let me be as kind as. possible. Let me be as good as possible. And so, it gets very confusing for you.

Like, am I empathic? Am I trying to. survive? And is my empathy literally. like this this trauma is a survival. response to try to like It's almost like. that fawn response we talk about. That. fawn trauma response where I am going to. be what this. this harmful person needs me to be so I. can win them over, and I will be okay, right? So, and then after that though, there's shame. Why was I so nice to this. person? They were terrible to me. Like, what's wrong with me? And something I. really try to.

focus on with survivors is to say, this. empathetic, responsive, compassionate. part of you is beautiful. We've got to. heal you and not lose that. Does that. make sense? So, this isn't an. amputation. This is very much about. we've got to keep this here, pull the. shame off of it, but allow you to become. more discerning. Wow. And that's the trick in doing this work. with clients and for an individual who's. healing themselves. Yeah, wow. I mean, that analogy you just gave of it's not.

an amputation. Mhm. That's really interesting because I. think we would think that when. something's that toxic and abusive, you. just want to cut it out, get rid of it, Mhm. move it away, but but that's not. what you're saying. No, and and in fact, you know, what I. this is one of the things I really take. umbrage in and frustrated with Tik Tok. and and places where people are giving. quickie advices. It's almost as though if you have. empathy for the narcissistic person, you're foolish. And absolutely not. They.

are in their fashion. There's there's. something not quite right there and. they're not even anywhere close to. addressing it. My goal for folks is you. want to have empathy for them and I. mean, if you don't want to, I get that, too, for what you've been through. But. if that empathy for you them is. something you want to maintain, yes, I. still need you to disengage. Mhm. Can. you disengage from someone and still. empathize with them? I believe. absolutely yes. Wow. Yeah, and that's. and that's a hard balance for the people. in your life that love you. to see that cuz it can be really, really.

challenging to see someone you love feel. empathy to someone who's hurt them. really badly. Correct. And it's also. even for yourself. And this is where it. can bring up complicated emotions like. pity and guilt, right? And I try and. again, the the work of healing is that. pity is that these mechanisms inside of. you that attend and attune and care. about other human beings are still. working, which we want those to always. remain online, but that you ensuring that you pull.

yourself back from a harmful situation, the world needs you. We need your whole. you, not the version that you had to. create to remain in this toxic. relationship. And that balancing act of. retaining empathy when you've been so. hurt by someone, that's some of the. hardest work of healing. I see people do. it every day and it's really quite. beautiful, but a lot of them think, "Have I become a bad person because I'm. so I'm so angry at this person." And in. fact, a big point I bring up in the book. and I'm going to sort of jump ahead here. is I actually don't know that.

forgiveness always has a place in these. relationships. And this is a complicated. conversation. A lot of people say, "Forgiveness is all good." and I'm like, "Slow the No, no. Stop the presses. It's absolutely not.". And there's a whole body of scientific. research that suggests that repeatedly. forgiving a repeat perpetrator actually. harms the forgiver. There's no win in. that. And so. way? In it it it lowers their. well-being. It can result in negative. mood symptoms. I mean, of course, you. keep do you keep doing this cuz I think.

forgiveness is is a very personal. decision, but it's also not a necessary. one to heal. And I think that the. message a lot of people get is, "Well, if you're going to If you don't forgive. them, you're never going to heal." The. hell you're not. And I'm going to be. very frank with you, Jay. There's some. narcissistic people who harmed me. immeasurably. I don't forgive them and I. healed just fine. It comes back to the. you can't just say the clichés to people. and hope they'll move on and be okay. with it and it can be really hard for. that individual to.

again, either rise or. lower themselves down to either of. those. Like, I know someone who's been. through something recently who's dealing. with it with empathy. And I know for. them, their friends and family are like, "How can you be empathetic to this. person?" And so they're dealing with it. that way. Or you'd have the opposite and. in your case we were saying, I actually. don't want to be empathetic towards. them. I don't want to forgive them. And. your family is saying, well you should. be. But I do I I since here's where it gets. interesting. I empathize with them. I. don't forgive them. We can maintain those two states.

simultaneously. And I think that again, one of the big exercises in the book and. I think it might be one of the most. important ones is something I do I've. been doing with clients for a long time. which is the multiple truths exercise. Cuz it's so easy to say write it all the. terrible stuff. And I do tell people to. record all the terrible stuff. But I. said like let's just be I want you to. write everything you feel for this. person. And the person might write this. is my mother. I hate her. She had a. tough backstory. She was terrible to us. as children. She lives alone. I feel.

sorry for her. I wish she would change. I know she. won't change. This is literally the. stream of consciousness for a survivor. You look at that and right there it's. manifest why survivors are so confused. But I absolutely believe and not. everyone does. Some people say I have no. empathy for this person. But I think. it's quite possible and this is where. everyone say no that's not possible. If. you empathize with them you'd forgive. them. I say I understand why they are. the way they are. I even kind of. understand why they did what they did. What they did was unforgivable.

Mhm. And so I do I wish them no ill. will. In fact if good things happen to. them, so be it. If bad things happen to. them, so be it. So there's a mild. indifference to it. But it wouldn't be a. loss. I mean I don't think again, there's so many forms of empathy and. empathy is its own complicated. conversation. But I don't think that the. not forgiving is a lack of empathy cuz. forgiveness really reflects the harm. it's done to us. Mhm. And people say no. no no it's a gift for you too. I'm like. yeah, and I'm going to not giving them. this gift cuz I know they would do it.

again. If I let this person back in, they would do it again. Mhm. Mhm. I love that distinction between empathy. and forgiveness. Really important to. understand. Another word that a whole. chapter is dedicated to radical. acceptance. Define that for us so that we can. understand how that's used because. again, even looking at the difference. between empathy and forgiveness, it's so interesting to me just how. subtle and specific healing looks like. as opposed to this almost.

abstract journey that's often painted of. healing being like you move from this. stage to here where it's it you know, yeah, so So radical acceptance is is is. I've just said there's one there's two. there's probably two essential. ingredients to healing. You're going to. go through radical acceptance, you're. going to go through grief, and then it's. sort of people are going to go on. different paths. But radical acceptance. is the absolute acceptance that these. patterns are not this person's behavior. is not going to change, at least not. significantly enough to make this into a.

healthy relationship, that this behavior. affected you, and as long as you're in. the purview of this behavior, as long as. they keep doing this to you, it will. keep hurting you. Cuz some people have. said to me they say, "I radically. accepted they're not going to change. How come when they say these things to. me it still bothers me?" I'm like, "Cuz. it's hurting you. It's still hurtful. Just because you understand why it's. coming out of them, you're you didn't. just become a piece of concrete. Like. you still have a soul and a heart and a. psyche that can be hurt." So some people. I think thought radical acceptance was. like a magic pill that if I take this.

that the narcissistic person will never. bother me again. And so all of a. particular but the key element of it is. this is not going to change. And all. decisions from that point forward have. to be made on that basis. By definition, narcissism is like I said a maladaptive. personality style, but it's also a rigid. personality style. The less healthy the. personality, the less flexible that it. is. So very healthy people have. extraordinarily flexible personality. So. the core of mental health is.

flexibility. It's almost like physical. health, right? A person who's physically. healthy has a lot of flexibility in. their muscles and joints. A mentally. healthy person has a lot of flexibility. in their psyche. How do we define. flexibility in our psyche? I would say it's it's an adaptability. It is a self-awareness and awareness of. others. It's the ability to engage in. novel problem-solving and not get stuck. on a singular solution. It's the. capacity to be able to self-regulate and. to self-soothe. Those are some of the. things I'd file into that sort of that.

flexibility. I'm not just saying it's. like, "Sure, I'll go anywhere you want.". I'm not saying it's the it's the I'm. game for anything, but when things when. there's disappointment, there's the. capacity to cope with it. It's a lot of. coping, a lot of resilience is in that. flexibility piece, right? That is the. core of health. I've worked with people. who've survived severe trauma. It's I. and but they the ones who really are. standing in a different way, it's that. flexibility, right? And you think about. it. If a tree is flexible, it'll bend.

with the wind. If it's not, it's going. to snap if the wind is too hard. That. would really be the best sort of an. analogy. So, narcissism is this sort of maladaptive. rigid style. There's very little. self-reflective capacity for the. narcissistic person, very little. self-awareness for the narcissistic. person, and very little awareness of the. people around them. There is little. motivation to change. Most grandiose. narcissists subjectively think of. themselves as great people. If you ask. them, they'll say, "I'm a great guy.

Like, I'll help anyone. I'll do anything. for anyone. I'm I'm just a cool person.". They believe it. Having just cheated on. their girlfriend two nights before that. they're able to maintain what almost. feels like a delusional self-schema. Those things are not amenable to change. And And again, the nice thing about. being an old lady is you I've been doing. this so long that I've seen cases 15, 20. years. And when I tell you that there's. been some interesting things they've. learned about themselves. In some cases, they had co-occurring conditions. Addiction is a great example. The.

addiction is managed, like they've been. sober for many years, but that core. personality, they are definitely not fit. for an intimate relationship, at least. not one where someone's not going to get. hurt. So, that radical acceptance of the. all of it. That moment is the penny drop moment, because now people see the path forward. very differently. This is no longer. once the kids grow up, it's going to get. easier. This is no longer when he gets. the promotion, things are going to get. better. This is no longer when the.

grandkids come, my parents is going to. calm down. This is This is it. And I've. sat with many clients and said, I'm. going to put something to you and I'm. going to say, if I were to tell you. this is it, this is never going to. change how would that affect the. decisions you make? Most clients will. say, can I tell you next week? Cuz. that's a lot to take in. But the. challenge with radical acceptance, Jay, is that I wish I could say, it's. ah, and the light comes in the window. You know, a couple things is that. radical acceptance doesn't mean you're.

signing off on this. It doesn't mean. you're giving in to it. Doesn't mean. you're agreeing with it. It's not that. It is you're seeing it absolutely and. painfully clearly. You know what happens. after you painfully and. radically see something, the grief comes. over you like a tsunami. Because this is. your mom, the mom you always thought, one day we're going to have the moment, or your dad where you're like, one day. they're going to get me, or the partner. where you're like, we're going to grow. old together and it's going to be okay.

You're giving up a narrative, you're. giving up a hope, you're giving up a. life story, you're giving up things you. held onto since you were a child. That's. devastation. And I tell folks, now we're. going to hold on tight. Because grief is. the most human of experiences. There's. it's one of other than life other than. being born and dying, I don't know of. any other universal human experience. other than grief. All human beings lose, right? We lose something or someone and. we all have a very similar experience.

internally. We were we we grieve. And. that's why we have rituals, right? But. ultimately we go through a period of. grief and I think in this modern age we. think we're better than grief. We think. we can soldier through. I can make my. grief go like this. Nobody gets to make. their grief go quicker, right? It grief. is grief. And that grief actually leads. people, Jay, to say, "Okay, this feels. terrible. Maybe I should go back into. the relationship. Maybe I made a. mistake. Maybe I'm not seeing this.

clearly. Maybe I'm the problem. Maybe. I'm the narcissist." And so. the holding on during the grief. understanding what's happening within. you, that the loss isn't just I'm not. talking to my partner anymore or I'm. distanced from my mother or I'm getting. a divorce, but the grief is how much of. yourself you lost in this relationship. When people have to dive into that. Sometimes I'll say, "I'm kind of glad. they're gone, but oh, what what just. happened to me?". Yeah, yeah, it's the grief of the life. you once had. Or what you thought you.

were going to have. Or the life you. thought you could have. The grief of the. loss of the person that you lost while. you dissolved into this relationship and. and I've seen that from the people I. know, not people I I obviously these are. people that I I know in my life, but. I've seen just that dissolving of one's. identity, like completely. clueless, even if they've disengaged. to I don't know who I am anymore. And I don't know what to do anymore and. I don't know whether I was confident or.

whether I was bubbly or whether I was. extra or intro, like I just don't know. Yep. And. what's the first step when you're. feeling I don't know? What Where do you. Where's Where's the starting point? folks we're taking you back to basics. and it's little things like I'll say. three times a day, set a little timer if. you want, I want you to just when that. little notification comes up, want you. to stop and say. how do I feel right now? Am I cold? Am I. hot? Am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Like. physiological functions.

Figure out where you want your. thermostat and move it and see like I I. I'm feeling 60 68. This is nice. People. don't even know that. I'll say, "What do. you want on your pizza?" You'd be amazed. how many people are flummoxed by that. question. They'll say, "Well, he always. wanted. What do you want on your pizza? And. they'll say. and they'll catch themselves. This isn't. meant to be silly. This is how even. these these sort of low-hanging. questions become a place where a person. is now being able to recreate a. subjective focus.

Mhm. They were told for years, "You. can't be hungry. You just ate. You can't. be cold. I'm warm. Mhm. You're not. tired. You got plenty of sleep.". Mhm. That's what they were told. So, when. that's done to you, not just once, but. hundreds if not thousands of times, just. that initial process, and part of what I. write about in the book is just you keep. reorienting to yourself and you ask. yourself a few times a day like, "What's. the temperature? I I I'm actually. feeling a little bit cold." And that's. okay. Even if everyone else has a.

bathing suit on, it's okay. Wow, it's just bringing that person back. into their body. their body. Because that's almost. physical tangible way of knowing how we. feel. And because we've gone so far away. from understanding how we feel, that's. going to be the easiest way. Same with. what do you want on your pizza? It sounds silly, but it's not because. it's like. let's get these basic decisions right. Let's get these really. Yep. amateur decisions right. Rather than. thinking who am I? What is the goal of. my life? Like But you work up to that.

And when you ask people, "Who am I?" I. don't know. And I'll say, "What what do. you stand for? Tell me something that's. important to you." And. they will really say like, "No, I've. never thought in these levels." I mean, your focus for so many people is meaning. and purpose, right? To me, that's when. we're getting into the latter stages of. really this you know this individuation. and this autonomy of what is meaningful. to you, what is purposeful. I remember a. client once saying to me, we're talking. about meaning and purpose and she said, "Are you kidding me? What's meaningful. and purposeful?" She said, "I just want to get to a day where I.

don't think about them.". And I said, "Great. Then that's that's. where it is right now and over time. we're going to build on that but that. can feel very out of reach for people.". Like in my healing program this month. it's it's going to be meaning and. purpose month and even I as I construct. that curriculum I'm realizing like I. want I a lot of the usual conversation. about meaning and purpose I'm almost. having to have the conversation point. you know point two of what it means when. you're going through this and someone. who's a survivor of narcissistic abuse.

but then it's also the willingness to. turn to trusted others. I'm going to. give you a silly example of something. that happened today. I had a very. problematic call today, right with. someone and I had to put the call on. speaker because someone was helping me. with something in the house and I had to. be I had she was doing her work quietly. but it wasn't a confidential call. It. was it was a business thing. And the call went terribly. The person. was. very disrespectful, very dismissive. and I've been through narcissistic abuse. in many ways and shapes and forms in my. life. So my first tendency was.

"Am I being too sensitive? Am I being. too demanding? Am I being ridiculous?". That's what I was thinking. And at one. point the lady who was help helping me. out she kind of looked at me, rolled her. eyes. I rolled my eyes and she looked. back at me and she said, "Yeah." And I. got off the phone and the person who was. helping with something else she had. nothing to do with this call and I. closed my eyes and the person said the. person in the room with me said, "Yeesh. That was absolutely ridiculous." And I. looked at her and I said, "Say more.".

And she said, "I can't believe how. dismissive that person she didn't even. do the basic and. Jay, I felt whole because my inner. experience which I still doubt after all. these years and I've come a long way, but my inner experience, this person. outside of me who I know cares about me, said, "It wasn't okay how she talked to. you.". And each time that happens, we have a. micro-adjustment of. "That was on point. I I read that. situation correctly." And then, I was.

emboldened to make a stronger decision. and decide not to go into to do what. this person was asking me to do, was. like a speaking thing. And I'm like, "No, I don't want to do that." But that. other person's presence having that safe. space, and this is so a big part of the. healing then becomes building up safe, validating, anti-gaslights, as I call. them, in your life. People who see you. and say, "That wasn't okay." Or, "Are. you okay?" Or, "That was disrespectful.".

They did not speak nicely to you, whatever it is. Most survivors are so. used to being spoken to badly, they're. like, "Well, that's just business as. usual." But. to have that This is why people are. going to therapy. And so then, I was. able to take the much bolder leap of, "No, I'm actually going to end up going. to the other meeting, but thanks." I. don't know that I would have had that. kind of courage. This is what healing. is. You build up those people, even if. it's one or two people, giving yourself. permission to to put I call it the 90/10. inversion. Most of us put 90% of.

ourselves into our most toxic. relationships and 10% into the giving, reciprocal, loving ones that run easily. I said, "Flip the math. I want 90% into. those good relationships and phone it. into the toxic ones.". Yeah, that's so true. And and it's it's. interesting cuz I think that kind of. answers the next question I was going to. ask, but. this idea of I think when someone's. going through that healing journey. they're almost oscillating between like. I know myself again. Oh, I don't know. who I am anymore.

I feel like I know what I want on pizza. Oh my gosh, I have no idea. You know, so. I feel like they go through this what I. I think that partly answers it. You need. these people in your life who are. constantly reminding you and as you. said, anti-gaslighting you. What else. can someone do when they're kind of. oscillating between that? I think I'm. making progress. I'm not sure anymore. I. think I'm making progress. I'm lost. again. How do you What do you find in that. period? Embrace the oscillation, right? Because it is it's calibration, right? You're you're sort of It's like a child. wobbly on their feet when they're.

learning to walk. You're You're learning. this again. And so that wobblieness is. you it's the it's their internalized. voice. and your individuated self. kind of having a little bit of an. argument. And sort of view that indi-. that part of you that's trying to. individuate like say, "You got this.". And that's an old voice and that old we. can just sort of say, you know, "You're. You're actually not welcome here. anymore. Like you could just step out. Thank you." And the but the it's the. individuated voice and the internalized.

the narcissistic internalized the. gaslighted and internalized voice. And. they're they're going they're still. fighting it out. And we feel as though, "Am I Aren't I?" Just like today, anyone watching that call. I mean, what. it said, "This was not okay." And the. the person was almost like the emperor's. not wearing any clothes, right? That. this person was saying, "This emperor is. naked. Go away. Ramini, go away." And so. I think that that Initially, we need. those voices a lot more. And there will. still be times when we are we will talk.

cuz I think there's certain trigger. situations that kind of remain pretty. consistent for survivors for a long, long time. We do hold it internally. And. we were told to, Jay. Many survivors are. told. they're uppity if they want to achieve a. goal. "Do you really think you're going. to pull that off? Like I think you're. reaching a little too high." So they. were minimized and trivialized for. wanting to do something that they still. hear that inner voice of, "Don't be. ridiculous. You're never going to be. able to do that." And they make that. voice their own instead of trying to.

learn like that kind of that was an. unwanted visitor. So, let's see if you. can sort of treat it that way and we can. even think about if you look at trauma. theory, we talk about the protector. persecutor kind of a model that the. persecuting voice in a strange way is. doing this really messed up way of. keeping you safe cuz it's telling you. like in essence it it's the. that persecuting voice is that voice is. telling you you're going to fail so you. don't try. And when you were in the. narcissistic relationship and you. failed, they would humiliate and shame.

you, right? Or tell you it was going to. happen. But if you can say that, "Okay, I see what you're trying to do, persecuting voice. I'll be fine if this. doesn't go well because it'll be on my. terms." And if you really have done. radical acceptance, even when the. narcissistic person rolls her eyes and. says, "Oh, big surprise." You have to. keep coming back to this is a them. thing. This is not a me thing. Not. saying it doesn't hurt. This is a. carousel that really takes a toll on. people. But it can be done but that. oscillation starts to become less.

oscillatey. the more people have these validating. voices. People build up what we call. efficacy. The the idea that they're able. to do something, right? So, the first. time we able we're able to do something. successfully from make a cake or change. the oil in our car, uh use a drill and put something in the. wall, the that what it does to the. psyche is remarkable. So, I tell. survivors, keep trying new things. because the more efficacy you build,

that also helps foster individuation. So, I'm like, "Grab the drill. If you. put a few holes in the wall but the. picture goes up, you're going to feel. really good about the picture going up. Try to make the difficult souffle. You. may burn a few but when it's made, great. I did try to do this with bread. I still have not successfully raised a. loaf of bread. So, it's my last neurotic. wound but I think that when we find Some. people and other people do all kinds of. interesting things. I see like some. folks I've worked with learned languages. and they learned how to play a musical. instrument, and but they all say this.

feels so good because back in the day I. would have been made fun of for this. Those who are able to get out will say. it's so interesting to do this, and that. confidence starts jumping into other. areas of their life. Yeah, I mean. it's really a rehabilitation. exactly right. self-identity, self-worth, self-confidence, self-. acceptance. You're almost teaching. yourself to do things again in order to. feel whole. Right. Well, absolutely, but. you know what? You see it's interesting.

you say it's rebuilt. For a lot of. people it's a built. Mhm. Cuz if this happened to them in. childhood, their individuated identity. never got to form at all. Wow. So, this is a built. Yeah, it's a built. It's from scratch. Dr. Romani, this is, you know, so. informative. I I'm thinking of so many. people right now who I know are going to. benefit from our conversation today. because. it's almost like I feel like the more. and more I'm speaking to people, the. more and more I hear about people. dealing with this in their lives. But, I. want to ask you one last question, and. it's this idea of.

can going back to that empathy point, that forgiveness point for the person. who's healing from the narcissistic. person for them, can the narcissistic. person ever heal? Mhm. So, it's a. Listen, I I do believe in human. potentiality. I'm I'm probably never. going to bet on the psychopathic or. narcissistic horse in the race, but. might might they at least come in the. top five? Maybe? And what I mean by that. is. part of this is an understanding the.

origins of narcissism, right? Some. narcissistic folks, their personality. development was very much shaped by. adversity, trauma, neglect, loss, chaos, attachment wounds, right? That subgroup. if they are willing humbly. to engage into the work of growth. They do excellent trauma-informed work. work with a with a therapist. And then get beyond the trauma-informed.

work and are able to reflect on how they. they're able to create that schema of. how they're they affect others, right? To pull it's almost like you're pulling. away. the you're pulling open gates and say. there's people out there. See this thing. you're doing? They're being affected. And it it's really opening the schema. out of how they're desperately trying to. protect themselves to how other people. are getting hurt. And I have I it's. interesting. I I worked with a a. narcissistic client once for many, many. years and I I I sort of cut back my. practice and I've had.

one or two of them reach back like, "Oh, can I work with you?" I'm like, "You. know, I I've really kind of shut up. shop, but. they You know what they said though? One. one in particular said, "I am I am. screaming at my girlfriend and I know. it's not okay." Now, he's still. screaming at her, not so good, but he. does know he's like, "I know it's not. okay and she may leave me and I probably. deserve it." I And he's like, "You. taught me that.". Wow. He's still screaming. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know about that part. But. humility is such a big part of this,

right? And and the I honestly think the. antidote to narcissism is humility and. humility means we're not perfect. We. have flaws and it and we are and it's. not all a fantasy and that we're and. honestly, the hardest thing for a. narcissistic person to accept is that. they're ordinary. We're you're ordinary, I'm ordinary, everyone in this room is. ordinary and we're simultaneously. special, but we're just people, right? And so if that for them not to be. the most special person means removing.

the cap off the volcano, which is. terrifying for them. In if in a way, they're almost terrified by their own. rage. You need one very skilled. therapist to guide someone through that. journey, you know? And so and they have. to keep showing up and for about almost. 60 to 70% of narcissistic folks drop out. of therapy prematurely and it usually. happens when the rubber meets the road. and the work starts to getting really. vulnerable. That's when I've lost. clients and so we have to go very very.

gently into that forest with them and. but unfortunately if we go too gently. and we never get there then we're sort. of doing a lot of navel gazing. So it's. just finding that kind of balance and. and and you know they can do a lot of. spiritual bypassing that kind of stuff. like you you can't just you can't. aphorism your way through this. You're. going to have to do this painful work, face up to that vulnerability. That's I. I've seen some narcissistic people make. a little bit of progress but the way I. put it is this. There's hope for them to make some.

progress but the harm they've usually. done to another person usually it's not. super it's not really that fixable and. so many people will say. and the fear of a lot of people in. narcissistic relationships is what if. they change for the next person? They're not going to change for the next. person, right? What if they what if it all changes. overnight? This is not an overnight. This is years and years and years of. committed work to this. Like I said I've seen micro changes and.

not enough to have probably consistently. affected other people's relationships. and they still. personalities like a rubber band. We can. pull it out so all of a sudden Romany. the introvert could become Romany the. extrovert for one night only and then. when we get home the rubber band will go. back to its size. The narcissistic. person on a good day with a good. therapist might get stretched out a. little bit, seem a little bit more. tuned, aware, do some empathic adjacent. things but as soon as the first time. stress comes into the picture.

rubber band goes back to its original. size. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. as as the last question that came from. that was. what would you say to someone who says. I'll wait for them to change? You then you're waiting for a bus that's. never going to come. You're waiting for. a submarine to show up at a bus stop, basically. And in in the process, it's. not even just as that may not come, you. will lose yourself in the process. And. to me, that sort of soul death, that. sort of loss of self, is it's it's just.

not okay. And And listen, you and I both. know this culture. We both come from a. culture where remaining in a marriage, no matter what the conditions are, is. very much a sort of a symptom of the. culture. And this is where I've probably. seen it most pointedly, of people who. really Some folks would find a way, whether through a spirituality or other. relationships with their children or. others in their community, to sort of. create a meaningful space outside of. that problematic relationship. But. others, it was like watching a fruit die. on the vine. And it's To me, one of the.

most horrific things to witness is the. potential of a human being being lost to. this to this kind of invalidation. And I. shudder to think how much potential, creative potential, um knowledge, wisdom, that people have. held back because they've been. invalidated. This book is a love story. to every survivor and saying to them, "Please, bring We need you. We need all. of your gifts in this world because you. have so many." Listen, the fact that you. endured this relationship is already a.

gift, but so all the stuff you kept. behind the gate, open those gates so we. can see all this beautiful stuff that. you could bring into the world. Mhm. Dr. Ramani, thank you so much. The book is. called It's Not You: Identifying and. Healing from Narcissistic People. It's. available right now. Go and grab your. copy today. We have just touched on. the tip of the iceberg of the insights. and the knowledge that's within this. book. Please go grab your copy. And if. you don't already follow Dr. Ramani on. Instagram and YouTube, make sure you go.

and subscribe and follow. And I want to. see what resonates with you from this. conversation. So tag both of us. I'd. love to see if you've been affected by. any of this. If you know a friend or. family member who's benefiting from the. book, I'd love to see your takeaways. And Dr. Romani, thank you so much again. for this very thoughtful, very very. insightful conversation. And. I love your step-by-step approach and. also the ability to define and clarify. things so well for us. So, I always feel. better prepared to talk to people even.

who may mention it to me, friends, family members, whatever may happen, and. kind of guide them in the right. direction towards a therapist or the. support that they need. So, thank you so. much. Thank you, Jay. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy. my interview with Dr. Julie Smith on. unblocking negative emotions and how to. embrace difficult feelings. You've just. got to be motivated every day. And if. you're not, then what are you doing? And. And actually, humans don't work that. way. Motivation, you have to treat it. like any other emotion. Some days it.

will be there, some days it won't.