Harvard Psychiatrist: The Link Between Your Diet and Your Anxiety

Most psychiatrists or neuroscientists. will say there's no way that what we eat. would play a role in something like. depression, bipolar disorder, or. schizophrenia. When you actually start. to pull back the curtain, it's. horrifying. >> How do we know if our metabolism is. healthy or unhealthy? >> How's my mood? How's my anxiety? How's. my ability to sleep? Any of those things. should be at least warning signs that. you may have impaired metabolism somehow.

or another impacting your brain. Chris, it is so great to have you here. today and I'm so excited to ask you so. many questions. Thank you for making the. time and and thanks for being here. >> Thank you so much for having me on. >> Chris, I want to start with something. that I watched a part of recently. You. recently addressed the Senate and I. thought it was a really powerful speech. you gave and I just wanted the audience. to get context. What was the thesis or.

what was the main approach for that. presentation and speech? The overarching. theme of that roundt discussion was that. here in the United States and actually. throughout the world we have an. everinccreasing. chronic disease epidemic and so many. people focus on the epidemics of obesity. and diabetes and there's no doubt that. those are skyrocketing in prevalence and. I was there to represent the mental.

health epidemic that is occurring. concurrently that we really can't. separate physical health and mental. health although many people want to but. I think that as we have these escalating. rates of obesity and diabetes we have. escalating rates of a broad range of. mental. illnesses neurodedevelopmental. conditions mental health conditions. mental disorders whatever term you like.

even though those things mean very. different things to a lot of people. We. have escalating rates of things like. autism, ADHD, anxiety disorders, depression, bipolar disorder, substance. use disorders, eating disorders. It's across the board, across a wide. range of diagnosis. And the bottom line is that what we're. doing to address these chronic diseases. isn't working. And we need a paradigm. shift. And what are some of the.

surprising sources of what's happening. in the world? I think we all know that. social media and the advancement of. technology has some responsibility. We. all know that our, you know, lack of. movement and lack of connection and. isolation has partly a responsibility. But what are some of the more surprising. or some of the ones that you think we. need to take more serious note of? I. think probably for a lot of people one. of the more surprising things for mental. health. is that the same factors that can play a.

role in obesity for example can also. play a role in mental health and the one. that gets overlooked most often is the. role of diet or nutrition. You know if. you talk to most psychiatrists or. neuroscientists. and ask them does diet play a role in. mental health. Most of them will say probably not.

that the brain is just a really. complicated organ and there's no way. that what we eat, nutrition would play a. role in something like ADHD. or even depression and certainly not. something like bipolar disorder or. schizophrenia. By and large, most people in the mental. health field believe that those are. either. genetic biological disorders.

or they are largely due to psychological. and social factors, trauma, stress, social adversity, and that those are the causes. But. people leave out what we're putting into. our mouth every day. that actually becomes our brain, becomes. the neurotransmitters, influences the way every cell in our. body functions. And yeah, I just want to point out.

because this is really difficult for. some people to grasp and they think that. I'm like making stuff up or they think. that like there there's no way that can. be or this is highly speculative. This. must be speculative. And what I'm here to say is that if you. actually do a deep dive into the. neuroscience literature and the cell. biology literature of the mental health. field, you know, researchers have been. struggling for decades, actually over a. century, to figure out what exactly. causes mental illness. But numerous.

lines of evidence have all converged on. this thing called metabolism or. metabolic dysfunction in cells appears. to come up again and again across a wide. range of mental health conditions. And those same metabolic kind of. biomarkers or. studies come up for things like obesity. and diabetes and cardiovascular disease. And in fact, people with those metabolic. disorders are more likely to have mental.

health conditions and people with mental. health conditions are more likely to. have metabolic disorders. And so, it's. really a way to begin to put the science. together and more importantly help. people truly heal and recover. Sometimes, >> what's wrong about our understanding of. metabolism as it stands right now? Most. people when they hear the word. metabolism they usually think about. burning calories and they think that's. what it is. It's just the rate at which. we burn calories and that plays a.

significant role in whether we are fat. or thin. Athletes have a slightly more. sophisticated understanding of. metabolism. So, they're into V2 max and. some other metrics of metabolism and. that might make them stronger or faster. or have greater endurance so that they. can run a marathon or they can run 100. miles or whatever they want to do. And. all of those things are in fact true. Metabolism is related to burning. calories. It is related to athletic.

performance. But it is so much more than that. A. simple way to think about it is it's. this foundational process that living. organisms. use to convert food into energy or. building blocks to maintain or grow our. cells. From a biological stance, it's. foundational in the definition of a. living organism. So, it's kind of. all-encompassing. And in that way, the scientists have a. hard time arguing with me because. they're like, "Well, if you're saying.

that, then yeah, of course, mental. illnesses have to somehow be related to. that." But I quickly stump them when I. start asking them about, "Well, what. about the role of nutrition in that. process?". And, "Well, well, yeah, it's undeniable. that nutrition plays a foundational role. in metabolism. So, how do you think it's not related to. mental illness?" And then they're like. almost speechless like, "Well, wait, you've stumped me. That's no, it can't.

be that simple." And in reality, it is. It is that simple. And when you really. understand the details of it, we can. help even people with severe crippling. mental illnesses. So, most people don't. have a problem thinking that diet might. play a role in mild anxiety or mild. depression. Most people kind of get. that. A lot of parents aren't too. surprised that diet or nutrition might. play a role in ADHD, for example. All.

that sugar and processed foods and. artificial dyes and everything else in. our food supply. I think a lot of them. aren't shocked. They're not in disbelief. that that might play a role in the way a. child's brain functions. And those. things are true, but I'm also talking. about the severe crippling mental. illnesses, including things like. schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It's. all of them. They're all interrelated. and they all relate to metabolism. Let's. look at it from a macro viewpoint before.

we go into the micro. When I started. learning about a very basic level of. some of these things, i.e. what's really. in processed foods and what's really. going into genetically modified foods. and you know how things are being. processed even at a very basic level. I. was shocked to believe that we could get. away with putting this stuff into food. Like it's remarkable especially when I. looked at the standards of the FDA. versus some of the standards in the UK. where they're a lot higher in the UK.

I'm not saying they're perfect, but when. I came to America, I just saw like you. didn't even, you know, it felt like you. could just put anything on the back of a. pack or maybe even skip a few things and. people wouldn't be aware. How did we get. that far? Like, how did we get so far. away from creating things that are. actually good for people or at least not. bad for them? >> It's actually almost somewhat. unbelievable that this is the state of. affairs. And most a lot of people if. they're not really aware of this field. will think that the conversation that.

we're about to have or that we're. beginning to have sounds like a. conspiracy theory. >> Yeah. >> Like it can't be that bad. The the. government is looking out for us. We. have the Food and Drug Administration. They're ensuring that our food is safe. Why are you raising alarms? Why are you. scaring people with this nonsense? Of. course, everything they put in food is. safe. And it's been thoroughly and. rigorously tested. To those people who.

are saying, "Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, yeah, don't don't be conspiracy. theorists, people." Like, don't try to. scare us for no reason. I want to let. you know about, you know, a journal. article that just appeared in the New. England Journal of Medicine, which is. one of the most prestigious medical. journals in the United States, at least, and arguably in the world. and it just. appeared in the journal a couple of. months ago and it was about the lacks. oversight. of chemicals and food additives in the.

food supply in the United States and in. fact about 2 years ago there was an. artificial ingredient called terra. flour. It sounds so innocent right? It sounds. beautiful. Like terra must be like a. flour and you grind it up or who knows? Who knows? It sounds lovely. >> It does. They added this to a new. product, a beef substitute. And in fact, over 400 people around the.

United States were hospitalized, many of. them with liver failure. >> really. >> because of this product. And the FDA. began an investigation when they started. recognizing a lot of people who are. eating this food are getting sick. And. they looked for the usual suspects. initially. They looked for bacterial. infections or contamination. They looked. for, you know, lead poisoning or mercury. or something, some contaminant in the. food. And they couldn't find anything. And they continued their investigation.

And then at some point they had to start. going through the ingredient list. And. then they came across this innocent. sounding thing called terafflower and. they had to ask well what exactly is. this? And they went to the manufacturer, what is it? And they said, oh that's a. new thing that we just added. And here's. the kicker. The manufacturer was allowed. to declare for themselves that it was. safe. The FDA doesn't rigorously test. these new chemicals that get added to. our food. They rely on the.

manufacturers. It's an honor system. right now in the United States. It's an. honor system that we are supposed to. trust the manufacturers that if they. decide that they want to create a new. chemical and add it to our food. >> and call it an additive. or call it an emulsifier or a food. coloring or whatever they want to do, they are not absolutely required to. rigorously test it. Instead, they can.

simply declare that we consider this. generally recognized as safe or grass. with no requirement of proof that it in. fact is safe. And again, that sounds. outrageous. It sounds unbelievable. And. yet, the FDA just conducted an. investigation two years ago and. concluded that this manufacturer. included that stuff. When you actually.

start to pull back the curtain, it's. horrifying. It's horrifying. About 10,000 chemicals. are in the US food supply and many of. them have not been rigorously tested. for safety, like liver failure safety. Let alone, and here's the kicker, and. here's the really kind of terrifying. thing. Let alone what impact do these. molecules have on human metabolism.

or the human brain. We don't know. No one knows because. nobody's bothered to ask that question. and nobody's bothered to do the. research. >> So that becomes a likely culprit in this. chronic disease epidemic that we're. allowing manufacturers to just put all. sorts of stuff into our food without. testing it. And it's certainly one of. the lowerhanging. obvious choices in terms of what might.

be driving our chronic disease epidemic. It's remarkable when you hear it from. that perspective of the idea that we're. all putting things into our body. trusting that they've been tested or at. least being hopeful that someone's. thought about them being good for us. And not only have they not been tested, they've been added in without much prior. thought or research or checking. And. it's so hard because you look at so many. people who are struggling today and. people naturally I think put you know.

take responsibility and they think God I. need to be better or I need to lose. weight or I need to build muscle or. whatever it is that they want to do but. it almost seems like the system set up. against them. We've been conditioned and. hardwired since we've been young eating. these products. The chemicals have got. into our bodies and of course it's. harder to break that habit. So, I feel. so much empathy and compassion for. anyone who is struggling right now with. their health because it's partly not. their fault. >> 100%. I actually think in most cases, in.

almost all cases, it's not their fault. >> Mhm. that they were children at some. point and their parents were feeding. them what they thought was healthy food. and what they are were being told by the. US dietary guideline committee are. healthy foods and what they're still. being told are healthy foods you know. the US dietary guidelines. to date don't mention ultrarocessed.

foods they don't mention all of these. artificial ingredients because the. assumption is they don't matter. The. assumption is just make sure you get. enough calories. Try to minimize. saturated fat. Maybe minimize sugar. somewhat. Less than 10% of your calories from. sugar, which is a lot still. >> 10% of your nutrition from sugar is a. lot of sugar. >> But they don't even mention the impact.

of these other substances on human. health. And you know in their defense I think 30. years ago. nobody seemed to be aware of much of. this. There were very few people if any. who were really rigorously researching. this and really fully understood. what is this. But now we have more than. ample evidence. Um, epidemiological. evidence, basic science evidence, animal. studies, all sorts of things, numerous.

lines of evidence to all support this. conclusion that these foods are bad for. us. And I think again the thing that I. really want to drill home for people is. that they affect human health broadly. Yes, they play a role in overweight or. obesity. Yes, they play a role in heart. disease. Yes, they play a role in. diabetes and blood sugars. But let's not. forget.

the brain. That's the tricky thing. Because what I'm arguing is that in the. same way that eating these foods or too. much of these foods can drive your heart. to actually become pathologically. compromised. to the point of you potentially having a. heart attack. It can cause your liver to fill up with. fat which impairs its function. It can.

cause kidney problems. It can cause. immune system dysfunction. in the way that all of those different. organs are beginning to malfunction. The confusing thing to a lot of people. is the brain. Because when the brain. malfunctions, it's usually subtle. And it starts for. most people in the form of. things like brain fog or a lack of.

motivation. or depressed mood or mild anxiety. symptoms. or inattention. Like those are the types. of things that most people experience. And those of course are ubiquitous. symptoms today in society. When you look. at the rates of burnout, for example, we. have record rates of burnout. And most. people would never even associate. burnout.

with their metabolic health, let alone. with what they're putting into their. mouth every day. >> And what I'm saying, I'm not trying to. exonerate the workplace completely. So, yes, many of us are overworked. Yes, many of us are going 24/7. Yes, many of. our bosses now expect us to, you know, respond to emails at midnight because. there's a crisis at work or whatever. And yes, that is extraordinarily. stressful.

That is absolutely playing a role in. burnout. But so too is the actual. physical health of our brain. And the. reason I can say that so confidently is. because I've had numerous countless. people who have done things like changed. their diet or begun exercising or. prioritize sleep or just taken. themselves off of their screen for so. much. and their burnout.

evaporates. Their work situation doesn't change one. bit, but their tolerance for it changes. immensely. And all of a sudden, they go. from somebody who feels like, "I can't. keep up. I can't keep up. I'm never good. enough. I just can't do this much work. They're being too hard on me." To, "Why. was I so stressed by this? This actually. isn't that difficult. >> I'm resilient. I'm smart. I'm efficient. My brain is on fire. My brain is like, I.

just got that report done in one hour. and two months ago it took me two days. to do that report. No wonder I was so. burned out. >> Yeah. >> Took me two days to do the report when. it really should have only taken me an. hour to do it. And so when you bring. people's brains back online, a whole new. world opens up. >> Yeah. You know, hearing that resonates. so strongly for me because I feel that. for so many of us, we know that it's. very unlikely there will be a day soon.

enough that our workload will diminish. Right? If you're waiting for that day. for your work to reduce and the workload. to go down, kind of that's what stresses. us out is knowing that that day isn't. gonna come. And this idea of what you. just said that actually but when you. work on all these things your tolerance. grows and your ability to deal with that. level of stress and pressure grows and. your resilience grows. And it reminds me. a couple of years back maybe even a bit. longer now. I remember I had a choice. and I I saw the choice very consciously.

I either had to slow down or I had to. uplevel my health because I was working. more than ever. I was working harder. than ever. And I didn't want to slow. down because I love what I do and I'm. really grateful I get to do what I do. But I saw that if I didn't improve my. health drastically, taking into account. sleep, diet, meditation, working out, exercise, then there was no. way I could keep up. It it was it was. going to be downhill. And having made.

all those changes, not that I've. perfected them and I'm still in the. process of always iterating and trying. to get better at all of them and. strengthen different parts, but I found. myself having a much greater capacity. than I ever imagined of what my body and. mind are capable of doing. And again, I'm grateful I lucky I get to do what I. love. So there's that element for sure. that makes a big difference. But what. you're saying is so true that my. resilience and my tolerance for the. amount of what I do is far greater than. it would have been. And so I I love that.

we're not living in this fake land of, oh yeah, there'll be a day when, you. know, you'll only have to do 50% of that. report. No, you're still gonna have to. do that report, but maybe it won't. stress you out as much. In one way, this. comes down to something that seems so. obvious. When you say it, it's like everybody's. like, "Yeah, we've heard that a million. times. That's so cliche, like it doesn't. really mean anything." And that is. self-care. that if you're working really. hard, it's actually even more important. that you take time out to meditate or to.

prepare a healthful meal instead of. grabbing junk food already prepared. ultrarocessed. It's even more important that you take. enough time to get adequate sleep. Even. though you feel like you're on a. treadmill and you can't keep up, by not. sleeping, you're slowing down your brain. capacity the next day and now you get.

even further behind in your work and. then you feel the need to stay up even. later trying to catch up and now you're. even more sleepd deprived and now your. brain is really not firing on all. cylinders. So the sound bite. recommendation is self-care and. everybody's like, "Yeah, we've heard. that a million times. That's so. worthless. Don't tell us something we. haven't heard." And yet so many. Americans and people around the world. are getting trapped in these vicious.

cycles where they're not doing it. >> I think that when we take enough time, it's not even take time to slow down cuz. I love what you just said. I want people to live life with vigor. I. want people to have passion. There are so many problems in the world. We need people to be passionate and like. step up and like be there. Be there for. your career. Be there for other people.

Be there for your family. Be there for. your friends. That means doing stuff. It. doesn't mean slowing down and watching. Netflix all night. It it means doing. stuff, but make sure that you're doing. enough selfcare so that that engine can. keep running and so that that passion. remains. Do you feel the right people. were in the room that day who heard you. that can make a change? Where do you.

feel the change from a macro level needs. to come from? And do you think we're in. a phase where we're going to go into. that change or do you not feel hopeful? it ends up getting really complicated. especially in terms of the politics. because you know we had an election and. I've spoken with a couple of reporters. who actually said that roundt discussion. really put the make America healthy.

again movement on fire and really. allowed it to spread. The reality is. that we have a new incoming. administration. I want to just say for the record, I. fully recognize how politically divisive. the election has been. How some people are not at all happy. about the election results. Some people. are terrified. What's going to happen?

Some people are angry. I'm hearing from. those people all the time. And yet I want to say that there are. opportunities as well. And. I think that right now, especially in. healthcare and the National Institutes. of Health, that there are going to be some. disruptive changes coming.

Time will tell whether. that ends up being a good thing or a bad. thing. And the thing that I'm most. hopeful about is that a national. conversation has begun. >> Yeah. And just the other day, we had. Senate hearings largely with Democrats. And we heard from staunch liberal. Democrats like Cy Booker and Bernie.

Sanders and others. who were having the exact same. conversations that we had in that. conservative Republican Senate roundt. discussion. And I think that is. hopeful. because despite the political. animosities and despite all the things. that we are going to disagree on, make. no mistake, like people sometimes do ask.

me like what side do you take? I I don't. take a side. I'm a human being with. complex perspectives on a lot of. different issues. I don't think there's. one human being on the planet that I. would say I agree on everything with. So. >> it's probably wise. Yeah. >> So I am going to have my own sometimes. very strong opinions on different. issues, but what we can all agree on is that. there is this chronic disease epidemic.

that it is primarily metabolic health. disorders and mental health disorders. And we need to put together that science. and once and for all we need to start. doing something about it. And that. includes taking on corporate corruption. that is largely playing a role in this. To come back, like concretely, what does. that mean? To come back to what we just. talked about a little bit ago, manufacturers should not be allowed to. introduce brand new chemicals into food. that is sold in the United States.

without rigorous testing. Why on earth does anybody think that's a. good idea? Mhm. >> that we have more than enough chemicals. to choose from that are already not. tested. So, we got a lot of work to do. to try to catch up. But why do we need. even more new ones? We don't. For sure. For sure. Switching to the the more. micro. How do we know if our metabolism. is healthy or unhealthy? How do we feel. it? >> You know, so I'm really focused on the. brain effects. And unfortunately, there.

are not objective tests that people can. go out and get. So, you really do have. to just. subjectively. think through. >> Mhm. >> how's my mood? How's my anxiety? How's. my ability to sleep? How's my use of substances? How are my. relationships? How do I interact with. others? Am I having panic attacks? Any. of those things, especially when they're.

occurring for no clear reason, should be. at least warning signs that you may have. impaired metabolism somehow or another. impacting your brain. The good news is that there are some. concrete biomarkers that we can all use. and those are usually the biomarkers. that for what we call metabolic syndrome. and those biomarkers include. low HDL cholesterol, high triglycerides, high blood sugar, so pre-diabetes,

insulin resistance, whatever it gets. called, high blood pressure, and then. abdominal obesity or extraabdominal fat. The shocking news for any of your. listeners who don't know this is that. 93%. of Americans. currently have one or more. abnormalities. >> Wow. >> Among those biomarkers, >> leaving the brain out of it, in order to.

be considered metabolically healthy, you. would have to have none of those five. biomarkers. And only 7% of American adults currently. gets that. So unfortunately this really. is an epidemic, a chronic disease. epidemic of metabolic and mental health. dysfunction. >> Let's say people are experiencing those. things as you mentioned. So fluctuation. in mood, they're experiencing brain fog,

they're experiencing low energy. Where. should they start? the basics that I. think people can really do on their own. And I'll start there and I just want to. say as a caveat because I'm a. psychiatrist who treats like. schizophrenia and bipolar. And so those. those parents are listening to me like. don't give me this fluff. Don't like. give me the real we can we can get to. that. But for the overwhelming majority. of adults and even children,

I would say it breaks into the six. pillars of what we call lifestyle. medicine. And so we're going to look at. diet, nutrition, movement or exercise, sleep, minimizing or reducing harmful. substances if you happen to use any of. them, stress reduction practices like. meditation or mindfulness. And then. usually that sixth bucket, people will. talk about relationships. on purpose. I like to broaden it to. purpose.

>> And I think that's one of the primary. roles. is certainly not the only but one. of the primary roles that relationships. serve. So I I kind of say. relationships/purpose. So all of your listeners are already all. over purpose and relationships and. meditation and mindfulness reducing. harmful substances. It's pretty obvious. I'm talking about alcohol, marijuana, smoking, vaping, those kind of things. So those are not good for you. No, no.

matter what you've heard, no matter who. said this vape is really good for you, it's really not good. >> Why is it not good? What's it doing? >> So, it depends on what's in the vape. But we are actually not designed to. inhale chemicals into our lungs. >> Interesting. >> Our lungs are not supposed to have this. vape chemical in them. And you know, there have been extreme examples where. people actually develop life-threatening. kind of pneumonia type situations from. possibly contaminated vapes, but we know.

from long-term studies that people who. are vaping are more likely to still have. health conditions. On that specific. topic, if somebody is smoking tobacco. and they can't stop smoking tobacco, is. vaping better for them? Yes, it is. better for them. So if if you're moving. from smoking cigarettes, you cannot. quit, but maybe you could just vape instead of. smoking cigarettes, then go ahead, start.

vaping. But then at some point, I want. you to stop vaping because vaping is not. healthy for you. >> And then it really depends on the. substance that it's in it. Cuz people. are vaping THC, they're vaping nicotine, they're vaping all sorts of things. And. the the tragic news is like even when. people switch from smoking cigarettes to. vaping nicotine, more often than not, the nicotine. concentrations. are stratospheric compared to what they. were smoking. And so they end up getting.

even more addicted to nicotine than they. ever had been. And now they really can't stop. >> What's marijuana doing to the brain? Marijuana actually has a lot of. constituents. If you're talking about. the whole plant, it's got a lot of. different chemicals in it. Some that. might be neutral. Some will argue might. be beneficial. CBD is the most commonly. touted one that might have some benefits. for people. I think what we can.

unequivocally say is that THC is bad for. the human brain. So THC. does a lot of different things. It's. interacting with these receptors. throughout our brain and body. It makes. your heart rate go up. You know, central. to my some of my science work is it can. impair. mitochondrial function. So these tiny. things in our cells called mitochondria, it can impair their ability to function. And at the end of the day, the end.

result is that we know that people who. smoke a lot of marijuana will have. cognitive impairment. they will have. impairment in motivation. Now, this is probably not a shock to. most people. So, imagine the teenage boy. in his parents' basement playing video. games all day, smoking weed. He's less. than motivated and he's chillaxed about. it. He's not bothered that he's not. doing a lot. He's not bothered that his.

brain doesn't work all that great. because he's relaxed. not a great way to. go through life and certainly not a. great way to have purpose in your life. and relationships and everything else. But more importantly, it can impair. brain function over time. And the most. striking evidence that we have is that. THC can increase risk for psychosis. And. we know that from animal models. So you. can take an animal that has no choice in.

whether they're getting something or. not. But we can give them THC and they. can develop severe brain conditions. like conditions. We've we have a lot of. human data, more epidemiological data. because we can't do a randomized control. trial of a thousand kids and have half. of them smoke marijuana every day and. half of them not. That would never be. approved by an ethics board. So instead, we have to look at people who are. smoking versus not smoking and seeing. are they more likely to develop.

psychotic disorders. >> And in fact, it seems that they're. probably about four times more likely to. develop something like schizophrenia or. bipolar disorder than people who don't. So marijuana, not good. Alcohol, similar. kind of story. Not good for your brain, not good for metabolic health. You know, I think most people probably know the. exercise recommendation. Move, try to. build muscle. Like even if you're a.

couch potato right now and really. overweight, just anything. Walk around. your living room, do some squats, do one. or two jumping jack, like anything. Just. start somewhere. And then I would. probably encourage people to try to get. outside if they're really new to. movement. try to go outside because. you're getting like. multiple interventions at that point. You're getting away from a screen. So, don't walk outside with your cell phone. in front of your face. Walk outside and.

just enjoy nature. Like, try to be. mindful of your environment. Even if. you're in the city, you can still look. at the sky and see the clouds or look at. what trees might be around or any little. corner park or something. >> Yeah. So that can become an intervention. where now you're getting some sunlight. Now you're out in nature. Now you're. practicing some mindfulness as you're. moving your legs and walking around. You're getting away from screens for at.

least a little bit of time and that can. give your brain a break. So lots of ways. to do movement all the way up to do. CrossFit, go run a marathon, like what. whatever you want to do. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then nutrition. Honestly, nutrition. is the most complicated. story. And I think the first thing that I want. to just say for everyone is that there's. not a one-sizefits-all nutrition. strategy for all humans. And why is.

that? Because different humans have. different sensitivities, allergies, preferences. They have different gut. microbiota. They have different genetics. and epigenetics that they inherited from. their parents. They have all sorts of differences. And. so some people are going to do really. well on one type of diet. Some people. might do really great with whole grain. foods and others might have gluten. insensitivity. in the extreme form celiac disease. And.

that person is going to do horribly with. whole grain foods. And so there's no. one-izefits-all. Other people might do. great with nuts. Other people might have. fatal allergies to nuts. We just have to. like acknowledge. >> people are different and that's one of. the things that I I'm always challenged. by in even like podcasts or interviews. is people are like well give me the. three recommendations for everyone. It's. like well it's not it's not possible. Yeah. >> Unfortunately. So I want to say it's not.

that simple. but I don't want people to hear that. phrase it's not that simple and hear it. as it's impossible therefore it's. impossible. It's not impossible. It's. not rocket science. You just have to. know a little bit and you just have to. be willing to experiment a little bit. I. think the universal principle that I. usually recommend very appropriate based. on all of the stuff that we've already. discussed about ultrarocessed foods is. eat real whole foods that your. greatgrandparents.

may have seen on their table on a plate. somewhere somehow. And you can process. them yourselves. You can make them into. stews or dishes or whatever. I mean, you. can mash the potatoes if you're into. mashed potatoes. You can you can do all. sorts of things with your food. And I'm. not at all opposed to making your food. delicious with adding spices and other. things to it, but those are all real.

whole foods as opposed to the things. that you buy in a plastic bag from the. grocery store that have several. ingredients that you have no idea how to. pronounce. The foods and the actual. makeup of our diet will look different. for everyone because we're so different. But what do we need to know then about. markers like inflammation? I think those. are the things that are more common, right? You mentioned their mitochondria. as well. It's like these are the things. that are parts of us that we need to. understand more deeply and then that.

will help us figure out well what foods. are right for us and those that are not. Is that accurate? I think it is accurate. and I think about diet and nutrition. in actually really complex ways. Most people think about it as. making sure you get enough nutritious. stuff to promote health. So, the most. commonly used term is nutrient-dense. foods. Eat nutrient-dense foods and. you'll be good. And what's wrong with.

ultrarocessed foods? Well, nothing. really is wrong with them, but they are. nutrient deficient. You're just eating calories without the. good nutrients that you need. Mh. Mhm. And so some dietitians will even say. that go ahead and eat all all the. ultrarocessed foods you want, but then. throw in some broccoli here and there. Unfortunately, that's not going to work. So there is a need for nutrition. There. is a need for nutrients for all the.

different vitamins and adequate amount. of protein and other things that we. need. Yes, that's true. But diet and dietary. interventions can be so much more than. that. Some people may benefit from. losing weight in which we want to come. up with strategies to help them. accomplish that. Other people can. actually be metabolically compromised. because they are malnourished or. underweight. So think of somebody with.

anorexia nervosa or a cancer patient. with severe unrelenting depression. who can't eat or just has completely. lost his appetite and is nauseous all. the time and is now starving to death. really for all intents and purposes. I. would actually argue that they too have. a metabolic problem but it's. malnutrition. It's a lack of essential. nutrients. And so the intervention for.

those people is eat more. We need to. replenish your stores. We need to get. you to have a calorie surplus if. possible. So right there I just. mentioned two polar opposite. interventions. One group needs to lose. weight. Another group needs to gain. weight. And then there are people who. have food sensitivities. So they might. do elimination diets or just try to. figure out what am I sensitive to? What. do I thrive on? What don't I thrive on? And then the final category that I. usually talk about is kind of a dietary.

intervention. that can actually become a treatment. unto itself. It's usually in the form of. fasting or a fasting mimicking diet. And. there are many types of fasting. mimicking diets. Probably the the most. commonly known one is a ketogenic diet, but there are others. There are plant. sourced low calorie fasting mimicking.

diets that researcher Walter Longo is. kind of known for, but ultimately they. are all centered on this process of. going without. or tricking your body that maybe it is. going without even when it's not. which. is kind of the sneaky thing about the. ketogenic diet is it tricks your body. into thinking that it's fasting when. it's really not fasting. But the reason that is important to just. note is that you know people should not.

fast. forever for good health because that's. called starvation and you'll die within. a week or so. Not good for your health. And so this isn't technically a lifelong. healthy diet that everybody should be. on. And yet it can have powerful healing. properties when done for the right. amount of time in the right.

circumstances. I mean some people might be skeptical of. this. So in case anyone is, I just want. to point out. every culture on earth has used fasting. as either a healing practice or a. religious practice for millennia. >> Mhm. >> I don't think that's a coincidence. I think that humans in every culture on. earth have noticed.

gosh when we fast miracles can sometimes. happen. >> Yeah. And different cultures or. religions have attributed the mechanism. of action to God, you know, showing. mercy and healing or whatever a variety. of other, you know, we're we're. exercising the demons that were clearly. present. >> And so all sorts of. explanations. have been evoked over millennia. And.

what I'm here to say as a as a physician. and scientist is that the science is now. catching up to say, "Whoa, this actually. is really doing a lot of amazing things. in the body and brain and it is. promoting healing.". Now, if anybody's super religious and. they're a little annoyed with me for. saying it like that, God was probably. involved in biology and physiology, too.

So, if you want to stick with this is. God's thing. This is what God wants us. to do and he shows mercy uh when we do. it. Uh well, he would still probably. work through scientific methods to. change biology and make it work that. way. I don't know. But that's the thing. where we can start to get really. sophisticated with using these. interventions in the with the right. people in the right circumstances. to promote healing and recovery. Earlier.

you mentioned clients of yours or people. who are struggling with schizophrenia or. bipolar and you're saying that they. wouldn't appreciate these more surface. level solutions. We'll start with. bipolar which we hear about a lot more. often I feel. what is it? How many. people are struggling with it? And what. are some of the recommended steps there? >> So, bipolar disorder is one of those. disorders that is skyrocketing in.

prevalence. >> Why is that? >> I think that with all of them, with all. of the different diagnostic labels, there's so much disagreement about why. is that? It's such a critical question. and an important question. And I just. want to say for the record, I fully. understand that there are different. explan and the explanations fall into. kind of three categories. I would say. category one, we're just better at. recognizing it and diagnosing it.

>> and that's a good thing. >> It's a really good thing. Everybody's. talking about mental health today. We've. got onpurpose podcast talking about. mental health. And so, of course, everybody is just getting diagnosed and. getting the treatment they need, but the. rates can't possibly really be. increasing, especially with something. like bipolar, because many in the field. believe it's genetic, and that wouldn't. change in prevalence over such a short. period of time. The second category is.

disbelief. This can't possibly be true. Americans. are just whiny, lazy people. Everybody. loves to have a label. They all want to. be special. Everybody wants to be. special these days. And they all want a. label or more. And so that everybody. wants to have ADD. Everybody's want to. has has this that, the other. And. there's no way this many people can. really have this many mental health. conditions. And so it's all fake. and or.

kind of related to that, people are just. seeking pills because they like the. pills. So with ADHD, oh, everybody's. just wants to be on stimulants. They're. all gaming the system. They're all going. into the psychiatrist complaining about. how they have symptoms of ADHD when they. really don't. And really what they just. want is their they want their drugs. They want Adderall and Rolin and they're. hooked on them. And that's what that's. about.

And then the third category is. no folks. They're they're really. actually going up in prevalence. And I'm. in that category. Not to say that the. other. >> the fed category. >> Not to say that the other two can't. sometimes occur. Yes, I do know some. people who like labels and probably like. them too much and want attention from. them. And yes, I do think that we are. talking about mental health more and we. are diagnosing people who maybe would. have been missed 30 years ago. I do.

think that's real. So I'm not saying. that those aren't true, but I think the. bulk of the statistics cuz the stats are. staggering. With bipolar disorder in the United. States alone, the rates have doubled in. adults and they're up exponentially in. children and adolesccents. and like with children and adolescence. just I mean one study found a 4,000%. increase in the diagnosis that was.

largely because in the 1960s and '7s. nobody diagnosed children with bipolar. disorder and now we're kind of you know. if they're a little fidgety and moody. and throw tantrums. we might label that bipolar even though. it's not really the definition of. bipolar at all. Some people will. diagnose that as bipolar and start. treating it. >> The usual treatments for bipolar. disorder are, you know, mood stabilizers.

and pretty much mood stabilizers and. lots of other psychiatric meds. And the. unfortunate reality is far too many. people don't respond to those. There are. some who respond beautifully to them, and I'm all for that. Far too many. don't. >> Why are they still being given out if. they don't work? I think it's it's. because of that halftruth that they do. sometimes work for some people. And so. you'll have people marching in the. streets kind of figuratively at least.

saying this saved my life. Don't take. this away. But for anybody who knows. anyone with bipolar disorder, the. overwhelming majority of people. do not achieve remission and recovery. from the treatment. And we as a field. tell them, you just have a chronic. disorder. You'll have this for life. We're really. sorry. We don't have cures in. psychiatry. There's no such thing as a.

cure. And you're just going to have to do your. best and manage and we'll do our we'll. do our best to help you. But yeah, you'll probably be in and out of. hospitals sometimes through no fault of. your own. you'll be taking your pills. religiously. and then the season will change and. you'll have an episode and we just we. just don't know what to do about that. I. think what the real question you were. probably asking me was how could diet. play a role for them.

>> You know, when people hear me talk about. diet can play a role for severe mental. illness, most are still skeptical. But. we now have absolutely hundreds, but. probably I've heard from thousands of. people. who've been diagnosed with bipolar. disorder. who have experienced significant. improvement. and/or remission of their symptoms using. ketogenic diets or fasting mimicking. diets.

And I want to just say upfront because. some people ketogenic can even be kind. of a triggering. word for some people. And I just want to. say upfront, you can do a vegan. ketogenic diet, you can do a vegetarian. ketogenic diet, you can do an omnivore. ketogenic diet, you can do a carnivore. ketogenic diet. So there's a broad range. of foods that people can eat and be on a. ketogenic diet. So it's not about plant. sourced versus animal sourced foods. It's not about eating bacon all the.

time. it. Some people make it that and. and and that it can be ketogenic for. them, but it doesn't have to be all. bacon if you don't want it to be all. bacon. And all bacon probably is not a. healthy diet. I'll just say for the. record, you probably need a little more. nutrition than that. Usually the first. thing that I say for the skeptics who. are like that there's no way that can be. true. This sounds unbelievable or crazy. or it sounds like he's a quacker. He's. selling something. A lot of people think. that you're selling something. I'm like, well, actually, I don't get paid any.

royalties for people who do ketogenic. diets. I wish I did. I wish there was a ketogenic society. that would give me a 10-centent royalty. or something for everybody who tries it, but no such luck. I think one of the. really important things to just point. out for any skeptics right off the bat. is that although a lot of people know. the keto diet is this fad weight loss. diet, in fact, it was developed 100. years ago by a physician for one and. only one purpose and that is to stop.

seizures. >> That the ketogenic diet is an epilepsy. treatment. >> Wow. >> And it is actually now an evidence-based. epilepsy treatment. We have many. controlled trials. We have two kind of. gold standard medical reviews called the. Cochran reviews that support that the. ketogenic diet is a very effective. treatment for epilepsy, especially. childhood epilepsy, even when. medications fail to stop the seizures. And the reason that's so important to.

point out is that it turns out that we. use epilepsy treatments for a wide range. of mental health conditions but in. particular bipolar disorder. So a lot of. anti-comvulsants. like debacl. gabapentin others are used for they were. actually developed initially for. epilepsy. They're really epilepsy pills, but most. of your listeners, if they recognize any.

of those names, they recognize them as. psychiatric pills or psychiatric. medications because they're most. commonly prescribed for that. >> And so, in a way, given that we use. epilepsy treatments all the time for. mental health conditions, it shouldn't. be shocking that a diet that can stop. seizures might also play a role for some. people. >> Yeah. Wow. Oh, I had no idea. That's. fascinating. Like, how how did we even. discover that something that was used. 100 years ago for that was possible now.

to use again? The first published study. for mental health was in 1965. Some researchers did a study of women. with schizophrenia, put them on a. ketogenic diet for just two weeks, and. they noticed at least some improvement. in their symptoms. largely people haven't even really. seriously considered it or thought about. it. And the usually the assumption is. that people with mental illness can't do. a diet,

>> right? That's I mean, yeah, >> people with mental illness are too. impaired. They're really sick. There's. no way they could do a diet. But what. I'm here to say is that please don't. short change them and underestimate. their determination to get better. because I'm getting people with. schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and. crippling depression. to be able to change their diet and. stick with it. When people are fighting. for their life, it's really amazing what.

they're capable of doing even when. they're so impaired. >> Even when they're so impaired. I'm not. here to say they're not impaired. I'm also not here to say it's easy. I'm. not here to say like, oh, just tell them. ketogenic diet and then two days later. they're going to be cured. That's not. the way this works. People need support. They need education. They need a lot of. help. They absolutely need a lot of. help. But it is possible. It is doable. And when we support these people, they. can do it. And the, you know, the great.

news is that although to some people. this may sound anecdotal or Chris. Palmer's making stuff up or what, we now. have 20 controlled trials underway. around the world of the ketogenic diet. for a wide range of mental health. conditions. Eight of them are randomized. controlled trials and we have several. pilot trials, many case reports already. published. I actually just published a.

review article on this topic of how. often has the ketogenic diet been used. for mental health conditions. We have. over 50 publications already published. in the literature and over 1,900 people. 1,900 people who participated in these. trials and the overwhelming majority of. them found some benefit. No, I'm not. trying to say all of them were cured of. their mental health condition because. mental health is a lot more complicated. than just diet. And I'm not here to say.

any one treatment is going to magically. fix everyone cuz that's not the way it. works. And I hear from people around the. world who have suffered from chronic. severe crippling mental illnesses and a. lot of them are getting full remission. sometimes off of their psychiatric. medication. Sometimes they're able to. completely taper off. And even that, like when they get remission, it's not. like this simple process, shocking, surprisingly,

cuz you would think that like, oh, if I. put them into remission, they should be. so happy jumping up and down for joy, smiling all the time. And there's some. of that. There's also this phase that. almost everybody goes through of. profound grief for the life that they've. lost. They recognize. I just lost 30 years of my life to that. illness. >> Wow. >> Why didn't somebody give this to me 30. years ago? Cuz I was in college.

I had a girlfriend. We were going to get married. And when I became schizophrenic, I lost. everything. I had to drop out of college. I've never had a girlfriend since. I. lost all my friends. I couldn't live. independently anymore. I gained all this weight. I've been a pariah in society for 30.

years. And now I'm better. What am I supposed. to do? Chris, when I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, we've talked about the. macro, we've talked about the micro, but. when I'm hearing you talk about it that. way, I'm like, what made you dedicate your life to this. work? because this isn't just something. that you do, it's who you are. You can. tell by the passion you have for it, the. the energy you have for the people that. you support and serve and work with. every day. Like you said, you don't have. any skin in the game when you look at it. from a business point of view. So,

where's that coming from? I have had my. own struggles with mental illness from a. very young age in terms of OCD, later. crippling depression, suicidality, all sorts of things. And I'm happy to go. into that at some point if you want to. But the real reason I ended up becoming. a psychiatrist is because of my mother. who, you know, I'm I'm from a family of. eight kids.

And when my mom was in her early 40s, she had been relatively quote unquote. normal up until then. was raising a. family, helping my father run his. business, just living a normal middle. class life in the Midwest. A series of. events happened in her family that were. ridiculously stressful and put a. tremendous burden on her. And she had.

what started as what she called a. nervous breakdown. that quickly turned into depression and. suicidality. and then pretty quickly turned into. psychotic symptoms. and she was hospitalized. She was medicated. She was getting. psychotherapy. She was getting all of the treatment. that the mental health field had to. offer. None of it worked. And she ended. up living the rest of her life with a.

chronic psychotic disorder. And it. ruined her life. It's not an. understatement. She lost custody of. all of her eight kids. I went to live. with her for a while. We end up homeless. together for a while. I mean, it was a. nightmare. But she loses custody of her. kids. She loses her business. She loses. all of her money. She loses friends, family, all sorts of things due to this. psychotic disorder. And I saw all of. that happen.

And I was furious with the mental health. field. Furious. Why are they so incompetent? Why aren't they helping her? Like, I. knew there was something wrong with her. It was clear. She was delusional. She thought she was. Mary Magdalene reincarnated. She thought. the world was ending. She would get. paranoid about people. I mean, all sorts. of symptoms. So, I knew there was. something wrong with her, but I was just. in disbelief that the mental health. field could be so incompetent.

Why aren't they helping her? Why aren't. they making her better? They have a. hospital. What What are they doing? And. when I saw what they were doing, I was. horrified because they were putting her. on medicines that made her seem like a. zombie, but she was still crazy. And I. was like, what what are they do? Are. they poisoning her on purpose? Like, what what is that? Like, what what are. they doing? And ultimately, she's the reason I became a psychiatrist.

because I saw how devastating mental. illness can be. It's not that. devastating for everybody, thankfully. Some people have mild, moderate things, and that's great. But I saw that it can literally ruin a. person's life. It can ruin an entire. family. and that. she was innocent. She didn't do anything to deserve any of. that. She wasn't using drugs. She wasn't There.

was no blame, no way to blame her for any of it. And I went into the field hoping that. maybe somehow I might be able to make a. difference and do something different. Thank you for sharing that. It's. incredible that you were able to, you. know, turn a pain into a purpose for. you, even though I can't imagine how. painful it was over those years just. watching that and feeling helpless, I'm.

sure, at times and hopeless. And do you. believe that if you knew what you know. now then that there were different ways. of helping and supporting her? 100%. You know, when when I went into. psychiatry, I became one of those. evil psychiatrists who just doled out. pills that didn't really work. And I felt so helpless. and so hopeless for our field because. you had to because those were the only.

tools that I had available. And people. would end up in life-threatening. situations. They would be manic and. psychotic and a danger to themselves or. others. and we had to do something. I we. had to keep them alive or I felt. compelled to try to keep them alive and. that was the only tool that I had. learned about. I always. was skeptical of all of it. I always. kept a healthy dose of skepticism about.

everything I was doing in the mental. health field cuz I recognized this is. the same thing that they did for my mom. and it didn't work. So why should we. think this is going to be any better? But I felt helpless. I didn't know what. else to do. I am now. filled with tremendous hope that when we. put it all together, when we put all of. this science together. and we understand. some actual interventions that can.

really be done right now in 2024, like a. ketogenic diet, the science of how that would help a the. brain of someone with schizophrenia gets. really complicated fast. I can. understand that science. >> I can't. >> Other people don't need to. They just. need to understand that you're going to. do this diet and we're going to help you. do it and we're going to coach you and. provide support and, you know, and. figure out what what you can do and what. you don't want to do. And it's an.

achievable treatment. It's a realistic, accessible treatment today in 2024. And it can save lives. What I am most hopeful about is the way. that this broader theory. can help us develop even more tools and. treatments and strategies. And I'm really hopeful. it will force us to rethink a lot of.

what we're doing in our field. M. >> it will force us to look for root causes. to use treatments some of them need to. be used sparingly I would argue maybe in. life-threatening situations but then we. need to move on to healthpromoting. treatments I'm in my 50s I don't know. how much more time I have but I think I. have enough time that in my lifetime I.

believe it is possible that we will see. a transformation of the mental health. field and we will look back on the way. we treated mental illness in 2024. is almost barbaric. >> and how could they have done that like. why why didn't they use these other. strategies that are so much more. effective I am really hopeful that we. may see that day in the next 10 to 20.

years. >> and if there are parents and future. parents listening who have in their. family had a history of mental health. and they don't want to pass it on to. their children. What are the things they. should be looking at? Is it possible to. not pass it on? If you do have genes. that increase risk, you have passed them on. It's not your. fault as a parent. Your parents did it. to you and their parents did it to them.

And so don't don't don't spend any time. or thought beating yourself up over. that. So genetics do get passed on and. we're not changing those anytime soon. Epigenetics also get passed on. unfortunately and that gets more. complicated. It means that if you've. been traumatized as a parent, if you had. a horrible childhood, your parents. physically beat you. Surprisingly, you have passed.

at least a glimpse of that experience on. to your children. >> When people have trauma, especially. prolonged trauma, it causes changes in what I think we can. safely just call epigenetics. And that might mean modifications to. your DNA. It might mean me like. microarna molecules and other kind of. things. that actually can get transferred in.

eggs and sperm cells to new children and. can impact their future mental health. and metabolic health. Some parts are. unchangeable. But the good news, the. great news is that genes and even. epigenetics are not the primary. determinants of these illnesses. I. believe environment, the way we live our.

lives is. the strongest testament to that is. actually the exponential rise in rates. Our genes have not changed. Our. epigenetics may have changed, but. epigenetics can change one way or. another. If you are a parent to a child, we're going to do all of the usual. obvious things. You're going to love. your child. You're going to provide. safety. You're not going to coddle. completely. You're going to let them be.

independent, take some risks. You're. going to let them fail every now and. then. You're going to do all of those. things. You're going to really support. and encourage them to have friends and. community. You're going to have them. move. You're going to have them get. outside. All of that stuff. Probably the. single biggest blind spot for most. parents is what you're allowing your. child to put into his or her mouth day. after day after day. If they live in.

America, there is a very, very good chance they. are eating a lot of ultrarocessed foods. That is something that most people is. not even on their radar. That that could. play a role in brain health. And what. I'm here to say very loudly and clearly. is it can play a role in brain health. And the one of the best things you could. do on top of all those other basics. So. if somebody's living in poverty in an. abusive household with substance use and.

all yes, all of that is much worse than. the diet. all there's and that's. unequivocal. Abuse, substance abuse, all. of that is much worse than what you're. putting in your mouth. But for all of. the other parents who are like, "No, we're already we we live in a loving. safe home. Our child has all of that. We're going bending over backwards to. provide all of that." The one thing that. again is a blind spot is nutrition. And.

it's not about your child's not getting. enough calories, cuz I know your child's. probably getting more than enough. calories. It's not that your child's not. getting all the vitamins and nutrients. he or she needs. It's that your child is. also getting all of these chemicals that. have been added to the food that are. actually affecting. brain function. And who knew? Well, increasingly now we. do know. And so now we really need to do. something about that.

>> What are some of the chemicals that. we're convinced are having negative. impacts on our brain health? >> Convinced. I can't you know I I need to. acknowledge the controversy in the. field. And there are powerful forces. that will work to keep this. controversial. And what are those powerful forces? You. ask the food companies that make these. products. If I am the maker of Doritos, I don't want anybody saying bad things.

about Doritos. There's nothing wrong with Doritos. Everybody should be able to treat. themselves every now and then. And the Doritos makers. will hire. medical experts. to cast doubt. to say there's no way that Chris Palmer. is right. There's not adequate evidence. for this. That can't be true. Don't. listen to him. He's a conspiracy.

theorist. He's just trying to alarm you. Again, the great news is that. increasingly we have Republicans, Democrats, many powerful people finally. coming together in a unified way on this. front. So, I'm hopeful. >> The precise chemicals, it's really hard. to narrow down. The the biggest challenge is that we. can't do randomized controlled trials in.

humans. If researchers believe that chemical X. is harmful potentially, the ethics. review board would not allow them. Even. if this is ubiquitous in our food. supply, the ethics review board might. say, "No, you can't. We're not going to. allow you to do this study, >> but it's still going in the product.". >> If your hypothesis is correct and this. is a harmful substance, you're going to. harm. >> Yeah, of course. >> half of the people in your study. We. can't have you do that. So, it's not.

allowed in the study, but it's allowed. in the food. >> It would be allowed in the food because. it hasn't been proven dangerous. But if you're exposing people to a. danger and there's no benefit to them, the ethics board is looking out for the. research participants. And if I'm a. research participant, you know, you want. to test the hypothesis that cyanide is. bad for humans. I'm going to give half. the people cyanide and half of them not. Um, and just see what happens. the. ethics boards will say, "No, you can't.

do that study because your assumption is. that this is a harmful thing and so we. can't have you poison half the. participants." That that that it's not. going to benefit them in any way. So. instead, what we do have are animal. studies. And one of the clearest most. recent examples. of potential harm. to. with a mental health condition based on. this kind of animal research is with a.

substance called aspartame or neutrieet. This is found in over 500 diet foods and. sodas. It is ubiquitous in our food supply. Aspartame. is found in Diet Coke, most other diet. sodas. It's it's ubiquitous. in our food supply and it's largely. considered to be perfectly safe. So. researchers actually took mice and they.

exposed them to normal doses of. aspartame. So not extra high doses, not. toxic doses, just normal doses that. somebody who's drinking several diet. cokes a day might be exposed to. The. mice who got the aspartame were more. likely to have anxiety like behaviors. Those anxietylike behaviors. were reduced with Valium, a common.

treatment for anxiety. And the reason. the researchers did that part of the. study is they wanted to determine is. this normal anxiety or is this some kind. of weird. aspartame anxiety? Is this is this like. are we inducing some brand new type of. anxiety or is this breadandbut. run-of-the-mill. anxiety disorder? And it was breadandbut. run-of-the-mill anxiety disorder. The. researchers then looked at the brain. function of these mice and sure enough. they found amygdala hyperactivation.

So the amygdala is kind of sometimes. known as like the fear center or the. panic center. So that lined up. Here's. the devastating. part, though, is that the mice who were. given aspartame. went on to have babies. and those babies went on to have babies. None of the babies. were exposed to aspartame.

But for two generations, the increased risk for anxietylike. behaviors persisted, which means that aspartame is inducing. epigenetic changes. that can be transmitted to your children. and your grandchildren. Now, if if this is mice data from mouse. studies, again, we we will never ever be. able to do these studies in humans. We. can't dissect the amygdala and also that.

will never happen. >> We do have large epidemiological studies. documenting already people who consume a. lot of artificial sweeteners are more. likely to have anxiety disorders. They're more likely to have depression. They're more likely to have a wide range. of mental health conditions. So, we've. got probably the best level of evidence. we're ever going to get already in. humans that this does apply to humans, it seems. But what this means concretely. is that if your mother.

drank a lot of Diet Coke, you might have. an anxiety disorder because of that, even if you have never had a Diet Coke. in your life. Now, of course, more than. likely, you've had plenty of Diet Cokes. cuz if your mother drinks Diet Coke, she's probably offered you some and you. have probably also been consuming a lot. of it as well. Now, does that mean everybody who drinks. aspartame has an anxiety disorder? Of. course not. It's one of probably.

hundreds or thousands of risk factors. So, it's just one way to begin to. understand that. But, but that's why I. come back to the generic. recommendation I make, which is if you. are suffering from a mental health. condition or if you want to prevent. mental health conditions, eat real whole. foods. Just eat real food. And aspartame. is not a real food. It's just not. Definitely. Thank you, Chris. Yeah, Chris, thank you so much for your.

research, openness, vulnerability as. well, going into your own personal. story. And we we end every episode of On. Purpose with a final five. These. questions have to be answered in one. word to one sentence maximum. And so, Chris Palmer, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best. mental health advice you've ever heard. or received? >> Accept yourself for who you are. Question number two, what is the worst. mental health advice you've ever heard. or received? >> Let's talk about your relationship with. your father as a way of understanding.

everything that's wrong with you. >> Question number three, what's something. you used to believe was true about. mental health, but you don't anymore? >> That chronic severe mental illnesses. are a life sentence. >> It's changeable. It's not impossible. >> They are treatable. Uh, question number four, or what's been. the most important mental health habit. or change you've made in your own life? Changing my diet. And fifth and final.

question, if you could create one law. that everyone in the world had to. follow, what would it be? Be kind to. each other. Chris Palmer, thank you so. much. The book's called Brain Energy. grateful for your time, your insight, your research, your openness, and just. thank you for showing up with so much. passion and enthusiasm and energy for. what you're doing. And I'm really really. happy that we got to sit down and spend. this time together. I know that, you know, I definitely believe in the.

gut brain connection and just the value. of what we're putting in our bodies and. how it's affecting our mind. I think you. can if you're still enough, you can feel. it on a daily basis. I love that science. backs it up, but I can probably know it. just from sitting with different foods. and seeing how I feel internally and. noticing the difference. And so, I'm. glad that, you know, all of these. recommendations and solutions are coming. forward for people to actually be able. to make a genuine change in their life. and not a misleading version of change.

So, thank you for your work and thank. you for coming on on purpose today. No, thank you, Jay, for having me and thank. you for all the work you do to help so. many people, millions and millions of. people. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I. hope you'll come back again. Thanks. Yeah. If you love this episode, you'll. love my conversation with Dr. Joe. Dispensza on why stress and overthinking. negatively impacts your brain and heart. and how to change your habits that are. on autopilot. >> Forgiveness is when you overcome the.

emotion of your past. And so you feel so. good that you no longer want to feel. bad. >> If you love this episode, you'll love my. conversation with Emma Watson on why she. stepped away from Hollywood to redefine. success and rediscover her sense of. self. It's not that I have stopped doing. interviews because I want to hide myself. away because I wanted to be able to have. a certain type of conversation that I. didn't seem able to find a space So,