FBI Agent: The Secret Formula FBI Negotiators Use To Always Get What They Want

how do I negotiate a better salary boss. is there listening and I said ask him. this question Chris Boss retired FBI. special agent former lead International. kidnapping negotiator an author of never. split the difference we don't really see. the great negotiators as great. negotiators one of the greatest. negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey what. are women doing wrong or what can they. do better in negotiation you're out of. order on the sequence can you negotiate. with a narcissist of course you can. negotiate with a narcissist one of the. things we advise people to do is.

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shett why did you become a lead. negotiator originally I was on a SWAT. team I was uh scheduled to be on a SWAT. team with the Kansas City Missouri. Police Department I was on a SWAT team. when I joined the FBI and I reinjured my. knee and I love crisis response because. I think a comfortable inaction is one of. the Banes of human. existence we got to make decisions and. so when I was on a SWAT team crisis. response you got make a decision you.

know they can't let's let's sit back and. wait and see what happens that's not. really the way you approach a crisis so. when I was on uh the SWAT team you know. we had hostage negotiators they went. along with the SWAT guys I didn't really. know what they did you know we we'd be. out there in the cold and the rain. they'd be inside someplace warm but I. wanted to stay in crisis response so I. thought yeah you know I could do that. how hard could it be it's my son and I. Brandon I've always joked that the Voss. family model is how hard could it be. which is similar to a redneck famous.

Last Words which are hey watch this it's. always going to be more complicated than. you expect but I got into it and I loved. it I it it uh it was more. satisfying than SWAT ever was and SWAT. was great but hostage negotiation when I. stumbled over it the universe sort of. pushed me in that direction it was a. push that I needed and I've enjoyed it. ever since and you never felt scared. there wasn't the fear there wasn't. the difficulty in your mind before you.

got involved that this could be. something that would be extremely. difficult potentially painful. challenging no. because first of all I was rejected for. the negotiation team I I was in fact. eminently unqualified but I went to the. head of the program in New York a woman. running the team and she said you know. yeah you're not qualified go away but I. said all right so there's got to be. something I could do what is it she said. go volunteer on a suicide hotline.

I'm like all right so I went to the. suicide hotline to learn not to help. people helping people with secondary. it's good secondary but I went there to. learn and I was fascinated by it and so. then I'm teachable I'm coachable I. learned their process and I saw how. quickly empathy emotional. intelligence accelerated outcomes. positive. outcomes and so I wasn't scared as a. hostage negotiator because I'd already. learned in a process that I believed in. I knew it was a highly successful.

process so when I started hostage. negotiation I just leaned into a process. that I had was familiar with and had. been proven to me worked walk us through. what a conversation on a suicide hotline. sounds like because I imagine that being. highly stressful you're dealing with. someone who's in a high state of panic. there's so much uncertainty walk us. through what that kind of a conversation. looks like and what you learned well. they get you used to it very closely. supervised so I think I was a little.

unsteady at the beginning so for. whatever reason I naturally lapsed into. what I refer to is the late night FM DJ. voice and the first call I just said. hello this is. helpline now that has a tremendously. calming effect on people and afterwards. the supervisor said your voice was great. that was great you started out great and. I remember thinking like wow I don't I. don't even know what I did I'm have to.

go back to it so you want to start with. a calming soothing voice and then no. matter what they. say you want to put a label in hostage. negotiation we call it emotion labeling. in that Black Swan method we just call. it labeling put a label on emotion that. you're hearing doesn't matter what it is. just label it now since they're in. crisis the emotions probably going to be. negative uh and in point of fact we're. all driven by negative thoughts we're. 75% negative our survival mechanism that.

we wake up with every day to survive the. caveman had to be negative the. optimistic cave man said you know yeah. you know Chris walked in here yesterday. and he never came out but I'm optimistic. I'm going to go in today too and I that. guy got eaten too but the negative guys. Shi away and we've inherited that. wiring and I remember one night in. particular this guy's really frantic. sounded sounded super frantic says you. know I just I I I need to put I need. your help putting a lid on this day I. got to put a lid on this day so so I. just said you sound.

frantic and immediately came down. there's a neuroscience reason for that. now that you know we never knew. then just simply calling out a negative. emotion is the most effective way to. deactivate it so he came. down and then through the course of the. conversation I just used three labels he. was he was a guy who was paranoid he. getting a lot of support from his family. he said you know I'm I'm going on a car. trip tomorrow I just you know I just you. know and I know my family's helping me.

and and I just you know I just I need my. family's help but I'm worrying about it. tonight and I can't get to sleep so I I. hit him with a label that somebody had. once hit me with in a. conversation I was telling my friend how. close I felt to my family but I didn't. say it explicitly it was strongly. implied and my friend said to me sounds. like your family's really close and I. remember how good it felt in that moment. and I've never forgotten that so this. guy's describing to me how much support.

he was getting from his family how they. were always there for him it sounded. like they're close so I said that exact. line I said it sounds like your family's. really close and I felt the strength. come back in his voice immediately so. then he went on to tell me about how. he'd been battling paranoia and how hard. he was working and he struck me as. determined so I simply said you sound. determined and he he said yeah just like.

that yeah I am determined I'm going to. go on a car trip tomorrow I'll be fine. thanks for everything you did hung up. the. phone that's not every conversation but. that's a way they're supposed to go you. know you call out what you're hearing. and it really helps people sort of. selflevel. cuz you're great sounding board and. you're picking out the negatives and de. activ them and the positives and.

reinforcing them just by observing. them the reason why I find that so. fascinating is because I was thinking so. many of us deal with our friends yep in. that sort of an environment you may get. a phone call from a friend who's like. panicking yeah they've just ended a. relationship they've gone through a. rejection a failure whatever it may be. and our got instinct is to try and solve. that problem and to fix it for them and. fill in the blanks when actually what. you're saying is the ability to just.

notice what they're experiencing what. they're feeling and being able to call. it out and label it as you rightly said. right that's actually giving them the. tools to make sense of it for themselves. yeah exactly and it's it's restoring. their tools and then it's also they feel. very. self-empowered like the problem with. giving. advice is the person receiving it. doesn't feel empowered they might not be. able to sort through it emotionally and. so then when you're not there they're.

lost again they didn't feel like they. got to the answer on their own a great. sounding board simply helps as a guide. helps them get to the answer on their. own and then inside they say what wait I. you know I got here on my own once I. could do it again whereas if you give me. the advice when you're not around I. might be. lost yeah there's a famous quote that. says something like good leaders make. you believe in them great leaders make. you believe in you yeah and this idea. that if someone's leading the. conversation well the person's walking.

away with self-belief yes and a. confidence in what they have yeah before. we dive into the actual tools and. breaking down of a. negotiation I find that most people try. to avoid a negotiation because they see. it as conflict yes they see it as an. argument they see it as a potential. debate and most of us are trying to. avoid conflict at all costs and so even. if it's like your plumber and they quote.

you a price we're scared of negotiating. because we're scared of that turning. into an altercation right or if. someone's trying to sell us something at. a store when we we're scared to have. that conversation about a discount or. whatever it may be right walk us through. that fear what have you noticed about. where does that fear come from that we. all carry of I don't want to get into a. conflict I don't want to negotiate I'll. just go with what you want because it's. easier to be a people pleaser myself and. my team we we believe and we got enough. anecdotal data that the world splits up.

evenly into three types fight flight. make friends assertive analyst. accommodator and we've seen this show up. globally it's disconnected from gender. ethnicity religion so two out of three. don't like conflict the analyst and the. accommodator analyst is um thinks of. Life very much like chess lots of moves. lots of percentages an analyst want to. think everything through all the. possibilities and then put percentages. on it and conflict is one option and it.

tends to be highly destructive highly. inefficient and so the analyst doesn't. particularly like conflict because it. seems to be very inefficient and. ineffective and there are far more. better ways to communicate so they're. avoiding Conflict for that reason the. relationship oriented person the. accommodator conflict is just ugly it. makes them feel bad it it sort of. pollutes their. existence and they see that as a much. higher cost place a very high value on.

relationships optimism being very. hope-based so they're going to avoid it. for those reasons that you know they. want to feel connected to you and. conflict doesn't make them feel. connected to you now the third type the. assertive you know they love it they see. it as combat they love it they get into. it they recover from the conflict very. quickly I happen to be a natural-born. assertive Donald Trump is a poster child. for assertives it's just one of the. three. times and love combat but then don't. really pay attention to the long-term.

costs of being openly aggressive because. the you know the the adrenaline hit in. the moment a victory tends to overshadow. how the losses pile up so we want you. know two out of three we want to avoid. that so the real challenge though is we. got to. collaborate but negotiation has this. feeling to it that it's the loudest most. aggressive voice in the room the guy who. kicks the across the room to get his.

point. screams uh slams their hands on the. table storms out you know this this. thing that actually happens a tendency. to pollute the collaborative environment. and we don't really see the great. negotiators as great negotiators you. know in my view one of the greatest. negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey. nobody sees her conflict oriented that. her list of great negotiations her. life's achievements based on. collaboration and being very.

positive and then if you were to try to. consider the context of her life having. gained tremendous. success in an environment filled with. maybe some of the most volatile people. on Earth Hollywood celebrities what. Hollywood celebrities is mad at Oprah. you know what rock fight has she gotten. into you know who's thrown shade like it. is not. there. simultaneously her financial success. success in the different phenomenal.

interviews she's gotten they were no. hold no holds bards interviews you know. you know one of my favorites is uh Lance. Armstrong interview I I happen to be. acquainted with Lance I like him a. lot but she there was no punches pulled. there that was a negotiation going into. that so spectacular negotiation is. really uh invisible well we don't know. that because it's invisible we don't. think of Oprah as a great negotiator. Warren Buffett we don't think of him is. a great negotiator and they have to be.

so that's we just not aware of what. great negotiation really looks like. because it looks like great. collaboration great navigation as soon. as you can change the. definition from win lose to Great. collaboration now people are interested. you know I'll Define negotiation is. great. collaboration long-term relationship. where we're both ecstatic about our.

success and if you can reframe it like. that then people are a lot more. interested in negotiation I think that's. one of the reasons the book has. succeeded because it's not a series of. stories where we beat. anybody sometimes we had to force. collaboration with a highly competitive. negotiator that was what kidnapping was. about I'm going to force the kidnapper. to collaborate I'm going to force that. guy from Al-Qaeda into a collaborative. conversation but I'm not going to hit.

back walk me through how you force that. person into collaboration and not hit. back because I think you're right I. think the overarching belief we have is. oh we got to beat them we got to find a. way to get what we want from them like. that's what you think of a negotiation. even in normal terms let alone those. high stakes but how do you do that in. that scenario one of my favorite. conversations describing this a number. of years ago I got hired to train a. hostage negotiation team in the Middle. East. and the country that I was in um very.

pro-western country a mus you know a. sensibly a Muslim country but really um. tolerant of all religions as most of. them are so I get brought in to talk to. the shik that's the head of counter. terrorism and I'm told in. advance uh the shake if we have if if. Al-Qaeda comes here and grabs people or. if any terrorist organization comes here. and grabs. people understand the shake wants to. kill him the people of his country are.

his. children and he wants to protect his. children at all costs so you sit down. with the. shake he's going to want to know how. you're going to protect his people so I. get a meeting with this guy brilliant. brilliant young man. brilliant and he looks at me and he says. all. right what are you going to teach my. guys to. say and I looked at him and I said. they're going to say to to the terrorist. kidnapper on the other end of the phone.

what you're doing is a great thing and. his mouth fell. open and I said now I got you cuz you. can't wait to hear what I'm going to say. next you were so caught off guard you. were in complete curiosity mode you're. hanging on every syllable that comes out. of my mouth and that's what I'm going to. teach you guys to. do and he went oh. you're.

hired but so what what is driving the. other side in their. mind how do they see what they're. doing what do they see as a. justification for it like so much. conflict will go away if I can simply. recognize what you see as the reason for. your problem without agreeing with it. probably about two years ago myself and. a friend uh Nicole Benham were hosting a.

rooman clubhouse at the time you know. the Israel Palestine it was is the it. was the water done version of what's. going on with Hamas now Israel had. started shelling the Gaza Strip because. Hamas in fact is hiding weapons in. hospitals and schools in the Press. office and Israel gets tired of it after. a while they start shelling those. offices so it's a milder version of. what's going on right now and and but. the the vitri all going on online was. huge and Nicole calls me up she says you.

know we we got to find a way to help. settle this out I said all right well. we'll do a room on clubhouse and we'll. invite people favoring uh the. Palestinians and people favoring the. Israelis on and they can talk it out. with one rule one. caveat before you say whatever you have. to say of about what you think of the. other side you got to summarize where. they think they're coming from what. their point of view is and as as soon as.

you get it all clear from them as soon. as the other side effectively says. that's right that's how I see it you. could say whatever you. want now did we come to any agreements. that night no but what was more. important was there were no. arguments as soon as somebody tries to. articulate how the other side sees. things it actually makes you. smarter I once heard a guy say empathy. is a species of reason. you know you're analyzing where the.

other side's coming from and in. attempting to genuinely analyze it you. start deactivating the reasons for the. escalation because the reasons for the. escalations is to at least they don't. feel heard let me take that one off the. table you don't feel heard now we can be. in a position where we could actually. talk about. this so I'm interviewing I got this this. thing on Fireside it's social media app. what it is is is largely I have guests. in it's live.

Q&A bring a woman on head of a coffee. company and she says I use your Israel. Palestinian. thing to um negotiate a resolution. between two my top Executives they're at. each other's throats and I love them. both and I can't lose either one so. remember what we did on you did on. Israel. Palestine and I brought him in the room. and I said okay you could say whatever. you want about the other side but first. you got to summarize their position you.

got to summarize how they see things and. what is motivating them and she said two. things she said we resolved it on the. spot and she said it was such a moment. that I still cry when I think about it. so you know what's all this rambling. about take a. shot at summarizing how the other side. sees things if it doesn't solve the. problem on the spot it at a minimum. brings you closer together and we're all. better off closer together yeah I think.

it's such a powerful skill whether it's. in a marriage whether it's in a a. friendship whether it's in the corporate. setting it's such a need and I find like. as life has got faster and faster and. faster we have less and less time to. summarize and so what we end up doing is. we just end up reading someone else's. summary right that's what we're doing. online on social media is we're reading. someone else's summary and Analysis of a. highly comp situation and more often.

than not we're reading the summary that. supports our Viewpoint not the Viewpoint. of the other and so now we have less. time we're reading someone else's Words. which means we're not even doing the. complex computation of trying to. understand and comprehend what someone's. going through yeah hey you're just. catching me as I have my midday pickme. up I'm sure you've heard about juny rad. and I put all of our love into creating. this amazing drink it's full of New. Tropics and adaptogens great for that.

little boost of energy enhance focus and. a happy mind and guess what it's only. five calories and absolutely no sugar I. hope you're going to try it out it's. available right now at Target if you're. a Target shopper head there right now. and at Sprouts as well this summer go. grab your juny how do you encourage. people in this busy. fastpac you know we're trying to be. efficient environment to actually slow. down and embody these skills that. actually require us to use our brains.

most of the time we you got to walk. somebody through something and and Coach. them into applying it because we don't. see it around us is the first problem is. we're not seeing anybody do this. effectively exactly that's a great Point. yeah so we we got no models for it y you. know all we got is models for um. instigators the the the professional. agitators professional agitators are. everywhere they're not a majority but. there's enough of the agitators out. there they tend to get tend to get a lot.

more of the traction how would you. define a professional agitator just for. people to I I totally agree yeah well. it's it's those in the media that are. clickbait oriented agitation. oriented it's highly profitable short. term you know you're you're getting. advertising dollars based on how many. views how many clicks you're getting and. it's so overwhelming and we're so tired. of it the the other thing we're so tired. of it I you one of the things that I'm. more most fascinated. with right now is you know the hak Tua.

girl MH like people are so tired of. negativity that anything that's like. positive and fun and refreshing and. catches them off guard like s i I. checked her Instagram today she got like. 2 million followers with 36 posts and. she's been there for 15 minutes but I. think it's we have such an appetite for. something that's not negative and not. designed to be uh agitating and a very. small number of agitators can turn a.

peaceful demonstration into a raging mob. and so then they get clicks over that. and most of our media is guilty of that. you know nobody's got neither the left. nor the right has a monopoly on. agitation so Fox is guilty of it CNN is. guilty of. it and they get they get short-term. profits they get a lot of clicks they. get a lot of views so I think we're not. we're not seeing the summaries we're not. seeing the demonstration of. understanding but in.

reality it accelerates us to a positive. outcome by probably about a rate of. about 14 times faster and it's. invisible it's. astonishing and so since it was. invisible we didn't really see it when. it happened um one of the guys on my. team Derek gun wrote a book called about. leadership applying tactical empathy to. leadership it's called ego Authority. failure he's got a great stat at the. very beginning of it where Rapport based. interviews and law enforcement gets you. to an agreement SLC confession 14 times.

faster than anything else but nobody. knows it h it happened so then to get. good at it you're never going to get. congratulated in the moment that's the. other thing it's in the moment it's not. that satisfying very much the way the. slot machines are satisfying in. Vegas you know you lose 83 out of 84. times on those slot machines but the the. winds are so satisfying that's all you. notice so to be really good at this you.

you focus more on how suddenly we're in. a better place and nobody's. congratulating you because they didn't. see it happen so it really has to be. intrinsically self-satisfying the reward. is getting it done faster and better. very few people are going to. congratulate you on it in the moment. yeah I I think that's the only mindset. shift we need is that if we want a real. resolution we want to feel like we've. really accomplished something we're. really moving forward it requires us to. move from that point of view of if we.

negotiate effectively if I take time to. summarize the other person's opinion and. they take the time to do mine we're. actually going to get somewhere even if. it's a slower process even if it's a. harder process how do you prepare for a. negotiation because I think a lot of us. also think great I'm going to walk in. there I'm going to try to figure it out. I'm going to say something but walk us. through how you'd prepare for some of. the biggest negotiations in your life. what do they look like well I'm going to. I'm going to think. of how I would summarize their.

perspective that's going that's going to. get really get my wheels turned I'm. going to get a lot of Clues how do they. see. things I've done it enough that it's. almost become second nature you got to. do it a lot like anything else it simply. requires practice there's this magic. hack for Life called. gratitude H it's amazing what a. difference it could make and it sounds. stupid I was once in a highly adversar. negotiation um the other side was it.

wasn't adversario the other side was. very. deceptive which is one one of my buttons. you know I I don't like deception one of. my main currencies is. integrity so it's a violation one of my. core VI and but thinking that put me in. a very negative. place and I thought well how' I get into. this in the first place the only reason. they're trying so hard to do this deal. with us is because we're good. uh it was a training company that wanted.

to make our training offering part of. their. platform so I thought this is a. byproduct is Success I'm actually lucky. to even be having this. conversation so you know I found. gratitude in the moment and then it. opened up my mind because you're 31%. positive smarter in a positive frame of. mine so you know whatever your hack is. and different people have different ways. gratitude exercises first in the morning. meditation whatever you could do to.

clear out your natural negative survival. mechanism so that you can be more. appreciative of life and that's one of. the ways and then if I think about that. then I can summarize your. perspective and another thing that I'll. usually do is I'll think of the. questions that I might normally ask to. elicit a. yes and I'll switch them so that I'm. eliciting a no do you agree because do. you disagree there's a pavlovian.

response to yes and. no people if they say yes they feel like. they're being led into a. trap whether they are or not is doesn't. change the fact that as a general term. somebody's trying to trap you is going. to litter that path with yeses So when. you say something like does that make. sense and they say yes that's moving in. the wrong direction well it's it's going. to trigger that pavlovian response. because the person that cheated him said. something to the effect of would you.

like something for free would you like. to make more money would you like to. live in a big house on a hill and that. led him into a trap previously so it. doesn't matter that you you have. integrity it doesn't matter that you are. not doing it it got done to them enough. times already that they're going to have. a negative reaction the ridiculous flip. side. is the pavlovian response to saying no. is that people feel.

protected they feel safe when they say. no would you like no when I when my son. was a teenager dad can I. know but then I I looking back on I. realized every time I said no I felt all. right so I walled myself off from being. walked into anything here and I would. look back at him and say okay so now. what was it that you wanted now I could. hear more having protected myself. so I may say to you you know look does.

this sound like a stupid. idea and then you won't have been. triggered and you'll listen to me you'll. actually to some degree listen with a. critical mindset and you'll think well. you know no I don't I don't I don't have. any problem with that but your follow on. is actually what's important now I don't. think it's a stupid idea but I think. here are some things that I want you to. think about you give me those freely now. we're in an actual.

collaboration so your original prep as. question how do I prep for negotiation. I'm going to try to do what I can put. myself in a positive frame of. mind work at summarizing the other. side's. perspective think of a couple questions. where the answer is no where it moves. things forward as opposed to the yes and. I've avoided that psychological feeling. of the other side feeling I'm trapping. him yeah those are the things to do what. are some of the big mistakes you've seen. people make walking in preparing for a.

negotiation well the inadvertent thing. to start off with is you know number one. they're goingon to they're going to um. ask a yes oriented question and then. number two they're going to make their. pitch the value proposition you know you. know I I I got to tell you what's. valuable here now that's. important but you're out of order on the. sequence because the other side's dying. to have their say. too if you go first you kind of rolled. over but the whole time you're going.

they're thinking but I got something I. want to say I got something I want to. say it's a voice in the back of their. head which is interfering in them. listening to you so I'm I'm going to. start out by trying to hear you out. first I'm I'm I'm going to want the. information from you I'm going to want. your perspective I'm also going to want. to know what you think is. important going into this. conversation let's say we're. collaborating to do a deal. or you and I are significant others and.

we want to go get something to eat I'm. going to want to know what's on your. mind. first because that's the order of. priority for. you then I'm going to know on my list. what matches up with what you. want instead of maybe I start out with. something that's number one on my list. but it's number nine on. yours now you're distracted by the other. eight things that you think are. important I'm going to try to dial into. you as quickly as I can cuz I want to. talk about what you think's important.

because that starts our collaboration so. really understanding where the other. side is coming from is is information. you need for the analyst and for the. relationship oriented person makes your. other person feel good so you're. building a relationship have you had I'm. sure in your experience you've been. speaking to such incoherent individuals. on the other side that there isn't a one. to n on their list there's like a z to a. right like it's it's Topsy Turvy because. they're not coming at it from a logical.

rational a lot of the people sometimes. when we're negotiating we feel like what. are you talking about like what language. are you speaking in and we can feel that. even with our partners people can feel. that at work where it's just like I'm. talking to a toxic individual who has no. idea what they want they're so off The. Rocker like you know when you're. speaking to someone on the other side. who you actually can't figure out and. you're feeling like I can't even read. this person how do how do you navigate. that well. I I liberate myself from the idea of.

rationality or. logic I really see those two things as. beauty beauty is in the eye of the. beholder and so when I let go of that. and then I think in terms of. patterns and then other than someone. who's actually paranoid. schizophrenic whether wiring is actually. wrong and someone who's suffering from. from lame layman's terms wiring issues.

versus chemical issues what we used to. refer to as manic depressive or bipolar. you know they change those terms all the. time those are principally chemical. imbalances paranoid schizophrenia. somebody's actually hearing. voices it's a problem but you don't know. what the voices are saying that those. people are in fact. unpredictable they manifest themselves. very rarely in hostage negotiation we. also found out that unfortunately um one. of the downsides of being a meth addict. someone could be clean for years but the.

methamphetamines does actual damage to. the wiring and they'll have an episode. when they've been sober for years that. mimics a paranoid schizophrenic so the. people that are actually messed up in. that fashion are very rare mostly it's. chemical imbalance and if you look at it. like that and then you say all right so. they patterns here let me look for the. patterns and then they're eminently. predictable if you let go go of the. Judgment that it's rational or.

irrational and you just start looking. for patterns and then listening for them. now they could be so upset with negative. emotions that they are in a state of. confusion very much like the guy that. called in on a hotline that night so I'm. just going to I'm I'm going to sort of. pick off that negativity one at a time. and I'm going to feed it back and I know. it's going to clear your head in a. business scenario or even a personal. scenario people who feel under. tremendous amount of. pressure tend to be very demanding and.

and can be very attacking which feels. predatory it even feels like you know. the magic phrase. gaslighting when in fact they're under a. massive amount of pressure a company. that I just did uh some training for. coaching and training they're based out. of the Middle East but their executives. are international in nature and they. happen to be in a. discussion in a dealing South. Africa and the person on the other side.

of the table they called a bully very. attacking not sticking to the written. agreement so of course they're in a. negotiation the lawyers on the table. side that I'm coaching what's the lawyer. going to do he's going to open his. laptop he's going to read you the. agreement which does not help it's a. great way to pour gasoline on the fire. let me remind you of what our agreement. says thinking that would.

help so the guy now the guy gets worse. and he. starts adding. profanity and telling him that he's. going to rewrite the. agreement they keep their Poise and when. you're being attacked that. much if you don't come up with a great. thing to say the most graceful the. smartest move is to withdraw quietly. so the lead said it's probably not a.

good time for this. discussion we'll be happy to leave guy. settles down a little bit they hit him. with a couple of. labels they get to a good place in a. conversation but then on the way. out he says to the guy sounds like. you're under a lot of pressure and a guy. completely relaxed he says oh man he. says you don't understand what's going. on over here I I've got all these. demands I got people coming at me from.

all. sides and the recognition of the. pressure that it sounds like you're. under a lot of pressure for someone he. perceived as an attacking gaslighting. bully the guy is being driven by an. internal pressure that he was having. trouble keeping control over and that. changed everything that offhand. label and it turned everything around. can you negotiate with the.

narcissist if you look for the patterns. and then you know the narcissist are. demanding so short answer is yes but how. you going to do it you got to make what. you want the path to where they want to. get ultimately narcissists are. self-centered so let them be. self-centered or whatever it is that. they're after make your want a step on. the journey to their goal and if you can. change the sequencing around that's how. you can get the upper hand on a. narcissist one of the if you're a h of.

course you can negotiate with a. narcissist if you've been trained by the. Black Swan group you know Chris Voss. yeah we'll train you we'll teach you. yeah it's whether you want to or not. it's whether you want to negotiate with. a narcissist in your life well that and. actually that's a great secondary Point. yeah because this is going to be. repetitive. Behavior one of the things we advise. people to do. is terminate the relationship. you know are they dragging you.

down you can do a couple things to try. to the psychologist or therapist would. call it boundary. setting sometimes you set a good hard. boundary and the other side says. oh I'll respect that they're looking for. you to set gently not. aggressively they're looking for that. boundary just set a couple boundaries. gently politely. but firmly and find out if they're going.

to straighten up then you can continue. the. relationship you make an attempt to sent. the boundaries a couple of gentle. attempts they don't pay any attention to. it whether it's personal or. professional that's a preview of the. future you don't need to be you don't. need to be attached to that you're not. going to be. who God put you here to. be by being attached to people to drag. you down. and I think a lot of us do that for good.

intention very good. reason and we're not required to. continue once you know be willing to be. smarter today than you were yesterday do. we ignore the patterns is that what it. is I think we do I think a lot of us do. for again for different reasons the. relationship oriented people the. accommodators they're very hope. based and they have this tremendous um. Faith In Hope so to speak and there's a. lot of feedback in that you know I think.

the world is largely a very supportive. place if the world wasn't largely on our. side we wouldn't have continued as a. species we'd be dead we'd have gone. extinct you know we're not the most. durable you know we don't we don't have. uh you know fair fight with most of the. Predators on the planet with just what. God gave us we lose most of the time so. that means that uh I I'm a firm believer. that the world is largely very. supportive and on our side so that that. reinforces the accommodators cuz the.

numbers are on their side they're just. not real good in the anywhere from 10 to. 30% of the people that are that are that. are situations that are. harmful so we have reason for sticking. in. there and then allowing wisdom to get us. smarter as we go then we eliminate more. and more the people that are dragging us. down if you feel like you're one of. those people that people always take. advantage of I can imagine a lot of. people that are listening may feel like.

they've been in accommodated but now. they've started to feel like people. always take advantage of me I feel used. right I I feel like I'm the one who's. always getting the short end of the. stick like how do you shift that pattern. for your life because you've now made. people believe that that's who you are. right and all of a sudden now you want. to change who you are how do you go. about that transition and shift in a. healthy way so that you no longer feel. that everyone's taking advantage of you.

yeah the healthy way to start with is. first the recognition is that you're not. really helping them you know if they're. taking advantage of you you're. effectively a. crutch and nobody becomes their best. self by leaning on a. crutch so not only you're not helping. yourself you're not really helping them. to do the best for them is to let them. get out there and fend fend on their own. you know let let them deal with it they.

they need they need to deal with reality. you're not helping them by letting them. lean on you all right so let's say. you're willing to accept that now how do. you how do you get out of. it and again um I'm going to refer it to. one of my negotiation Heroes Oprah. Winfrey I'm in a discussion with one of. her top. Executives and I was telling this. executive uh yeah our philosophy is the. last impression is the lasting. impression so always end positively no. matter what but. end and she said yeah that's exactly.

Oprah's philosophy she says in the. entertainment industry it's usually in. in and a limo out in a. taxi with Oprah it's in an a limo out in. a limo no matter what at the end of any. relationship we have to make people. remind them that we love them and that. we value them and then we have to. effectively we might need to part. company and I'm having a conversation. confrontational confrontation Oprah.

Winfrey is taking people to the Woodshed. but she does it in such a positive way. and a way that she underscores to them. that they feel valued that they're okay. with it in this conversation she. finishes by saying like whatever you do. is your. decision and I want you to know that if. you decide. not to participate in this interview I. will always love you I will always be. supportive of you I will always have. your back. back and so that was her way of saying.

it's my way of the. highway and if you choose the highway. I'm still on your side but we are going. to part company at this point in time. and finding a way to gently say. enough should you ever change your. mind I'm here for. you and then with wrw and that's it. always feels hard to do that because. somewhere deep down inside of us we. don't want it to be the end of the road.

we we want to we want to be hopeful we. want to save we want to accommodate we. want to mold we want to become whatever. the other person needs us to be and we. keep doing that we keep shape-shifting. yeah the desire to take yourself and. them to a higher existence to a higher. level of being to you know to to make. the the unique and amazing dent in the. universe that each one of us is capable. of doing and we love bringing that out. on other people it's very. I'm I'm sure when people meet you they. feel like they can learn from you how to.

control a situation but you don't strike. me as someone who believes that is the. way it ever goes and that that's what. you're trying to teach but I can imagine. people come up to you and companies come. up to you and be like Chris basically. show us how to control this in our favor. some do yeah yeah again about a third. you know the assertives love control. yeah how do you reframe someone who. comes with that control mindset who. thinks that you can control I've had.

I've had coaching clients I don't coach. in what you do but I've even had clients. who like Jay teach me the right thing to. say like you always feel like you know. the right thing to say can you teach me. how to say that to someone in my life so. that they do what I want and I'm like. wait a minute that's that's not how it's. meant to go right exactly all right. so the secret to gaining the upper hand. in in a negotiation is given the other. side the illusion of. control and then people will say like. oh that's better than. control so that may be one of the things.

that cracks them open another thing is. control is highly inefficient. TimeWise like let's say I could control. you completely I gotta be with you all. the time to do that you know I I could. control maybe one. person I can positively influence a lot. of people if I give up the need for. control cuz I'm going to need you to be. self-directed I'm going to need you to. be able to think for yourself there's.

going to be a point in time when we're. not together if I'm not there to control. you you're going to fall. apart but if I collaborate with you if I. Empower you when I'm not there you're. going to think for yourself is uh phrase. batteries included so to speak which. have been has been passed on to me by. some very smart people I need people who. are batteries included we all need. partners that are batteries included. we're aligned on core values and we get. more done. because I don't have time to control.

everybody so when you start. understanding the cost of. control then you start thinking like. yeah you know I there's got to be a. better way and it's guidance it's. helping people think it's making them. feel empowered to find the right outcome. you talk about mirroring as being a. really good technique in trying to get. to that collaborative same page space. how do you do that in an authentic. genuine way is negotiation ever genuine.

and authentic or is it always three. steps ahead three moves ahead yeah well. great question um the negotiation skills. and tools are. neutral so intention has a smell am I. trying to collaborate with you or am I. trying to take advantage of you a. scalpel and one person's hand Saves a. Life in another person's hands it takes. a life MH so first of all look at. effective negotiation skills which. emotional intelligence is effective.

negotiation tactical empathy effective. negotiation what's your. intention like my intention is for us to. have a great long-term relationship. highly. profitable through the. infinity and if somebody's arguing with. me I'll say like look all right so I. would love for this moment to be. something that we look back on 10 years. from now this argument. we look back at only 10 years from now. as to the moment we discovered.

collaboration and made both of us. Prosper for 10. years that's also changing somebody's. frame from short term to long term to. what's my. intention and my intention is long-term. collaboration like there's there's some. sales. methodologies that say your money's in. their pocket it's your job to get it out. that's not long-term collaboration and.

you're going to sense that like no. matter how Charming I am in the moment. no matter how much fun I am to be with. no matter how much I make you laugh. you're going to notice a diminishment of. your pocket before long and this is. coming to an end so if my intention. instead is for this to be great for us. to have a ball for this to be this. adventure that we both benefit. from now you're going to E even if you. say oh that was a label I heard that. before or you just used a mirror on me.

you know you asked me about mirrors that. was a. mirror then you're not going to. mind because I'm trying to take you to a. better place let's let's take a scenario. like let's say someone's negotiating for. a promotion or a higher salary let's go. down that road and act out what that. would look like so I'm doing. a training for a company probably about. two three years ago. got the CEO and all his top salespeople.

on the zoom. call we get to. Q&A and one of them says how do I. negotiate a better salary boss is there. listening and I said ask him this. question how can I be. guaranteed to be involved in projects. that are critical to the Strategic. future of this. organization and he interrupts immediate. I says I wish everybody here had ask me. that question so the job negotiation is.

really about our. future. collaboratively now as much as you'd. love for it to be about what your. contribution up to now has. been your contribution up to now your. boss going to see that you're. even here's what I asked you to do. here's what I agreed to pay you for. doing it here we are you did it I paid. you we're we're. even that's how your boss is going to. say it your boss worried about the.

future he worried about his own future. her own future worried about the. organization's future if you shift to. how do I make everybody. successful but not just in our routine. stuff in the most important stuff here. you show them two things you're a team. player you're going to put the team. first and you want want the high-profile. stuff you want to play in a.

championship your goal is to win a. championship my goal isn't to win a. scoring title my goal is to win a Team. Championship now suddenly it's about the. future a prosperous future like what I. mentioned before we're now negotiating a. prosperous future together that changes. everything yeah I love that I mean just. hearing you say that I was like the. amount of times in my head I'm thinking. as a leader like I want people to focus. on business critical activities like I.

want people to report to me on things. that are like actually critical to. impact and having an effect and moving. the needle as opposed to yeah we we're. doing the you know we're doing the. little stuff everyone needs to do it but. as a leader you want your team to be. focused on and moving towards those. bigger things yeah yeah and and it's. hard. because me included when I was a. employee too it's you want to be. rewarded for your effort you just want.

to be rewarded for your energy and. showing up and and all of these things. but that isn't how reward generally. works at least in the workplace well not. the ma maximum reward you know some some. reward works that way yeah much of that. is very valuable um you know can you. follow directions. like my girlfriend Wendy uh members of. her family they got this they got this. great Camp upstate New York it's a. wonderful place we're up there visiting. the end of the season every year they.

bring family up and they get together. and so they kind of they see me as maybe. this you know this white collar guy you. know who never got his hands dirty headb. outside which is is not my background. but they're see me an FBI agent you know. you're probably you're white cge you you. never got dir so uh we're getting ready. to get out of there and and a Gentleman. who runs it very generous guy he says. you know you're welcome back anytime and. so I say you know I'd come to work for. you any day cuz I like to be.

useful and he goes really come to work. for me huh what do you know how to do. and I looked at him I said follow. directions and it went. whoa whoa we need more people like that. so there's a lot to be said for. following directions you know the the. the mundane routine stuff that needs to. get done mhm you you'll do well if. you're great at following. directions but you're not going to make. as much as you could make to have the.

maximum impact on on the organization as. you said the business critical. activities because also you as a. leader you're having trouble keeping. track of all the business critical. activities you need the team seeing. stuff that's coming at you you know from. from your six That You Don't See rolling. up on you and you're going to want. people on the team to understand the. Daya today and a business critical so. when that media comes screaming in and.

you don't see it coming they catch it. for you MH and so that's what really. takes people to the next level yeah I. think one of the things I find is that. as a leader like I enjoy rewarding. people who are performing phenomenally. like it's exciting for me to see someone. who's performing phenomenally and. they're developing themselves and I can. see that they're proactive and. resourceful and they're growth oriented. and as a leader I get excited to be like. what can we build together like that's. my mindset but I had a friend recently.

who went through a scenario where he had. gone up to his BS and said I want to. work on really important things at the. company I want to be associated with the. biggest results we have he was told to. work on these projects he went and got. those results they promised him a. promotion and then two to three months. later they went kind of quiet on it and. then they said oh no we actually don't. have it anymore he's now been at this. company for two years and he hasn't. received a motion he hasn't received a. direction on this is where it's going. he's getting in some of the biggest.

results at the company but he's now not. seeing any career growth there and he's. thinking of leaving right he should. leave yeah and but I think his boss is. thinking oh this guy's GNA hang around. so in that scenario where you're like. wait a minute I'm hitting it I was. promised something it didn't happen now. I don't know how to negotiate that I. don't know how to have that conversation. how do you navigate that okay there's. there's two things first of all um yeah. that's going to. happen um Black Swan method tactical. empathy emotional intelligence-based. negotiation doesn't work all the time.

just works more than anything else does. which means there has to be an. acceptance of occasionally it'll fail. hostage negotiators got a 93% success. rate people were not going to make the. deal we call 7. percenters they're going to happen so. you you move on now before uh if. somebody's promised you something and. they failed on their promise that you. earned this is all also an indicator of. a company that's got. culture problems they got leadership. problems they got management problems.

40% a long time ago I heard heard the F. uh sta 40% of the Fortune 500 is going. to be gone in 10 years people with those. kind of problems are going the way of. the dodo they're going extinct so your. time there is coming to an end whether. you like it or not they're going to go. out of business they're going to get. sold they're going to think of a stupid. reason for firing you except that that. time frame now has its limit if someone. has failed to keep a promise that they. should have.

kept so that acceptance is am I going to. go someplace else start looking for. someplace else cuz you just added to. your resume you made yourself more. employable with these accomplishments. for somebody who's dying to employ you. who's going to keep their word they're. going to keep their core values if they. lied to you if they fail to keep a. promise with you that's the way they do. business they are going out of business. there is a problem you've just been. alerted to the problem now short term.

interim how you potentially try to to. write the the ship before you get. out no oriented question again I'd sit. down with the boss I'd. say I'm. sure that I seem very. selfish and that I. seem ignorant of the pressures that. you're under and unappreciative of. do you want us to. fail no right so no no no no why why.

what are you talking. about if you make it impossible for me. to. stay how am I supposed to stay how am I. supposed to. stay if you made promises to me I. fulfilled my end of the. bargain and you're showing me that I was. wasting my time you know it's it's a way. of letting people see reality before you. can be assertive and this is being.

assertive not aggressive but. assertive you got to be. empathic so you demonstrate some. understanding of where they're coming. from ask the no oriented question which. is a way to trigger decision- making in. a non-threatening way and let them know. what the reality is the reality. situation is you can't count on a leader. that doesn't keep their promises to you. you want to give get to that moment in. the. conversation you got to get there gently.

how do you get there gently. demonstrating an appreciation and an. understanding of the other side's point. of view give him a chance give him one. clear chance to make things. right let them know the reality of the. situation is you can't stay in a job. where they're not going to keep their. promises even if you want to keep that. job how you do anything is how you do. everything they're breaking promises to. you they're breaking promises to every. body else you're going you're going to. be tainted by their.

reputation and you're going to be taken. down when as a Titanic hit an iceberg. that ship's getting ready to hit an. iceberg and it's going to. sink yeah I mean that resonates in that. kind of like a when you've been hard. done by that approach feels. like you're having to turn up the dial. on you're starting off empathetic but. then there is a turn up on like well. this is the reality here's this is the. reality of the situation and I think. that's that's a really powerful approach.

so Chris of course you're aware of the. gender pay Gap women are yep paid less. what are women doing wrong or what can. they do better in negotiation what needs. to change of course there's a systemic. issue but individually uh individually. uh so I would answer this as if uh the. woman asking that question was my. daughter and she was asking me about a. relationship and she says Dad I'm in a. relationship with a guy who's beating me. how do I get him to treat me better my. answer is is get out of that. relationship all right so paying any.

Talent less than what they're worth is a. bad core value a bad culture value and. you're working. someplace that's going to go out of. business so this relationship is coming. to an end my advice my my guidance is. the same as it would be for any other. job negotiation talk about how you're. going to make the best contri bution. possible talk find out what it takes to. be successful there Express that you.

want to be paid in a big playing a big. game so what you're doing if you're. working in a place that's going to pay. you less because of your gender you're. padding your resume there's somebody out. there that wants talent and they don't. care anything about your gender they. don't care anything about your. demographics they want Talent you're in. a relationship you're in a bad. relationship and because it's a bad. value to pay Talent less then it's. coming to an end one way or the other. just same way as it's a boyfriend who's.

if he's not physically abusive he's at. least verbally abusive that's coming to. an end prepare yourself to move on there. are people that want talent and in my. company I don't. care I want Talent we're not the only. ones that are out there there are a lot. of companies that are taking advantage. of. women the sooner you leave them the. better off everybody is find the company. that values your contribution and move. to it nice advice great tell us about.

some of your 7%. experiences there you said the 93% and. the 7% tell us about have you some of. your personal experiences being in the. 7% when it's not working yeah um they're. actually far more common than I ever. imagined would be in a business world. like that when when I wrote Never split. the difference with tall RZ and and my. son brand ofos tremendous contributor to. the book it never occurred to me there. would be a lot of negotiations where the. other side had no intention of. consummating a.

deal and we call that now Proof of Life. Is there a deal and is a deal with you. maybe there's a deal it just ain't with. you maybe they're just kicking at tires. maybe they're just looking for free. Consulting and I started to wake up to. that and this is what falls into this. category 7 percenters somebody's never. going to make the. deal right after I got out and started. uh talking about uh negotiating and and. a Gentleman who wrote a book I think I. think it was Bare knuckle. bargaining and he's talking about this.

thing in business called the rabbit. where you're the rabbit you just said to. drive the price down on the people that. are really going to get the deal and I. can remember at the time thinking like. no that's that's I'm a time as money guy. that's a tremendous waste of time why. would I ever engage in a negotiation. with someone if I wasn't going to make. the deal I thought it was something from. a Vince vaugh movie you know I thought. that's too. stupid and so we started discussing it. with sales teams and and one guy says oh. yeah that's in a challenger sale it's in. that book it's 20% 20% of the time.

they're not it's not 7% of the time it's. 20% of the time and in the book they did. they basically take a survey of a. thousand Executives and basically say. how often do you engage in a negotiation. where you're never going to make the. deal with the other side for whatever. reason you're just not going to give. them the deal and a business Executives. admitted to. 20% which means that number's got to be. low because they ask people how often. you lie and they're not going to. exaggerate how often they lie they're. going to.

underestimate and so we started. implementing the methodology on a. regular basis we see it all the. time some of it. is a due diligence issue the the Black. Swan group we have a reputation. deserved for teaching a business. negotiation methodology that is more. successful than anything else why would. a company talk to us. well they've got an education provider. they're going to stick with so what they.

want to do is they want to get all the. free Consulting possible out of us so. that we get this all the time tell us. you know tell us how you do what you do. you know give give us some insight you. know how can we hire you if we don't. know how you're going to do it that's a. tell of somebody who's pumping us for. information they're going to want us to. and you know if you just tell us. everything then we'll hire you not only.

if you tell us everything will we hire. you we'll refer you to people that'll. hire you know they paint this this. vision of riches you know I call it. being taken Hostage to the Future. Prosperity that never. materializes we kind of cooperated a. little bit in the early. days but now we just yeah we get back to. this thing like all right so I'm gon I'm. going to see what's important to you. and if you're really focused on one. specific aspect if I.

sense that you're not focused on a. long-term. relationship you're a. Senter and then what am I going to do. I'm going to do I'm going to go all OA. Winfrey on you I'm going to say some. really positive very true things we'd. love to be the negotiation provider for. you that gives your company Prosperity. that you've never seen before and when. you're willing to make commitment to us. come back we'll make a commitment to you. yeah and they usually go they usually.

hear crickets on the other end of the. line and that's the end of the. conversation yeah so Chris as a followup. to that I'm sure that for years you've. had calls where a company will call you. and say to you Chris we actually want. that but we want it at half the price. right and I'm imagining that a lot of. people who are listening right now. whether they're entrepreneurs whether. they have a side hustle whether they do. a bit of design work here and there. they've had that call as well where a.

client calls they want this client. they're excited by it like and I want. you to tell us the difference between. the first time a Fortune 500 company. reached out and now when you're. established because that obviously. changes as well walk us through how do. you negotiate or how do you deal with. you really wanting to work with this. client but they're like we want 50% off. like that's what that's our budget. that's our Max yeah well we is simply. it's accepting that working with them at. half price is a bad idea and it's not. good for the health of the business long.

term and then as soon as we accepted. that then realizing that the less time. we spent with people that want half. price they're actually obstructing the. people that want to pay full price you. know uh a good friend of mine a phrase. that we use Joe poish he's got a phrase. there are half clients and there elf. clients half is hard annoying lame and. frustrating. elf is easily lucrative and. fun so in our in our early.

days especially say there's two again. those was brilliant hard annoying lame. and frustrating halfes yeah and then. eles eles easy lucrative and fun I love. that and Joe says don't work with the. halves work with the. elves and I heard this and I and so if. you in the early days if you're working. for me you figure that I want you to. make every. deal and I get with my sales team and I. say all right so the halfs are going to. have predictable. Behavior once we start looking for it.

it's going to jump out at. us and we'll be able to see it in the. first half hour of the conversation now. now they're very good at this and that. of course was the truth and then I said. we're going to walk away politely from. them early on I don't want you wasting a. lot of time so the young lady that's. running my sales team at the time and um. you know comment on gender if I may we. find out women pick this style of. negotiation up faster than men at the.

top level of performance we see no. difference it's gender. agnostic I believe that the women are. conditioned at an early age to be aware. of soft skills and they have a little. bit of a head start start and that's why. they have a tendency to pick it up. faster than men so woman running the. team she wants to make every deal so. before she starts walking away from the. halves she starts pulling data you know. you want your sales team to start. looking for. data how long is it going to take to.

make the deal how long is it going to. take to implement the deal what's our. profitability consequently she gets back. to me a couple weeks later and she says. here's what we found number one it takes. us two to five times the amount of time. from the initial conversation to the end. of. performance with a. half two to five five times as much. time so let's say it only takes twice as. long that means we've automatically.

taken a 50% cut and pay maybe on top of. the discount they wanted on top of. everything. else she said then consequently it. doesn't really matter whether or not we. want to do business with them. again they don't want to do business. with us us again yeah so they don't. repeat so these people that are. demanding. discounts you're taking a 50% and pay at. least and the business is not going to.

repeat so you're taking a discount. theoretically for a long-term. relationship and you're not getting it. they're not. appreciative of the fact that they got a. discount they want to take advantage of. everybody they're going to look for. somebody else to victimize after they. get done with you and they are standing. in the way of the people that want to do. business with us MH it's very dark in. the early days of an entrepreneur the. concept of walking away from customers. is. horrifying I got to make the.

rent I get bills now you want me to walk. away from these people well it's going. to take you twice as long to get paid so. they're not going to help you pay the. rent now and they're going to be slow. payers even if you agree on a deal then. then afterwards getting money out of. them you're you're not in a loan. business yeah so there's all these. problems and then as soon as we stopped. dealing with the halves we found that. they the elves started showing up you.

know there there there's this invisible. line of people waiting to do business. with you and the people that are going. to take up the most time in the line. stop the people that take the least. amount of time that's a scary thought. for any buddy. entrepreneur to accept and it's a leap. of faith and if you start looking around. you'll see entrepreneur after. entrepreneur experiencing it kind of is. a law of the entrepreneur Universe yeah.

for sure I think that's such great. advice and it's so refreshing to hear. that because I think everyone feels that. way where they're just like I have to do. this this is going to be our big winner. it's going to be our big ticket but it. always ends up going the opposite way. when they're being a half and it's it's. such great advice because it could save. you so much stress save you so much. pressure and you're going to feel like. you did a great job but you only got. paid half you might feel bitter you're. now resentful they didn't renew it turns.

into a whole bigger emotional thing as. well it was blood money yeah when it. doesn't need to yeah yeah I want to. shift away from work to relationships. because I feel like so much of what you. say applies to marriage it applies to. dating it applies to you know everyday. interpersonal relationships and. friendship we touched on it a bit at the. beginning but I wanted to talk about. this idea that. I think a lot of the time we actually. get an easy negotiation in the beginning.

what it feels like and then things start. to get more constrained so I have a. friend who she met this guy and he. promised to the world and he was like. yeah it's going to be amazing and I love. you and you're amazing and this is. incredible and it almost feels like. you've just won the lottery right it's. like you're getting everything in this. negotiation he gives you time he gives. you energy date nights are amazing. everything's great and then six months. in he starts to pull back and go no I. need to focus on this now no I can't. call you every day no I can't now not.

that any of those things are even. unreasonable they're actually reasonable. things right but it's just that it's so. different from what you thought you. signed up for what do you do as a. negotiation in that setting when you. were promised more or someone overd. delivered in the beginning and now. they're underd delivering that's a real. aspect of human nature and so at at some. point in time there needs to be Pol. withdrawal you know polite boundary. setting I think I think both people have.

you know I don't know I hate to say that. any gender is more guilty than the other. yeah same but I think that that men. probably have a tendency to start adding. to the neglect. first and then how how how do you get. advice like H how do we how do we. sustain this. how do you want me to feel about where. we are now versus where we were how.

questions how and what questions are. remarkably powerful questions we refer. to them as calibrated. question the word what is primarily. designed to uncover. problems the word how is primarily. designed to create. answers so you could say what got us off. track. because you're off track now it also. feels very. differential you know how and what makes.

the other side feel in charge people. love to be asked how and. what the real issue of both those. questions is not what the answers are. the thinking you made him engage in the. answer is. secondary at some point in time I can. say what do you want from me that's. going to force. you to. see that there appears to be a. disconnect between the two of. us it doesn't matter what you say that's.

a secondary benefit but the primary. benefit is that I ask a question in the. first place you know at the very. beginning of the book one of the more. famous Black Swan phrases is how am I. supposed to do that and I saw that as. the first way to say no you know to. Telegraph to the other side that there's. a problem. coming and then my son Brandon points. out it's forced empathy if I say how am. I supposed to do that to. you you're forced to look at me and take.

stock of the position that I'm in your. response to that is going to tell me. exactly how much you care about. that that's a game-changing phrase and I. realize now it's about implementation. I'm saying to you like look where we. are it's impossible for me to. continue how am I supposed to do that. like eight out of 10 times. that immediately changes the complexion. of the. conversation it's so ridiculously.

effective that in the two out of 10. times it doesn't work people are just. like a you time am I supposed to do that. and it backfired it failed on me they. looked at me and said I don't care how. you do it you're just going to do it and. my answer to them is no it didn't fail. it gave you an answer you weren't. expecting if it's an implementation. question how am I supposed to continue. in this relationship if you know you. never talk to me how am I supposed to. continue at the beginning we had these.

amazing we had date nights we had. quality time together we were into each. other and they seemed to gone. away how am I supposed to maintain my. relationship with you under these. different set of. circumstances you know that's not. refusing to maintain it what you say and. what they hear but what they hear is I'm. about out of here and it's a great. warning and so either they're going to.

change they're going to wake up because. there's some inadvertent human nature. there or they're going to be indifferent. to your. question if they're indifferent that's. just giving you a preview of a slowly. descending. future now you got a hard hard decision. to make be grateful for the time be. willing to be smarter today than you. were yesterday and ultimately your. default has got to be your own happiness.

yeah and how do we do that in a way that. we keep our personal emotions separate. from those questions because I think. sometimes you can ask those questions. but they're they're emotionally loaded. they're like things used to be amazing. before like you know now you don't do. anything and they turn into not. questions they turn into. demands everything else yeah or or they. turn into things that sound complainy. like oh things were before like how do. you expect me to and it and it sounds. like a complaint as opposed to a. question which is what you're.

positioning it as and I think that's. because our emotion gets so close to the. question how do you keep your emotion. separate and go actually I need to. negotiate effectively to get to where I. want to get to rather than sound like. I'm complaining and now that person is. only hearing the energy of the complaint. as opposed to the explanation of what. you're looking for well the two the two. possibilities are can you talk it. through with a friend who's neutral. who's not going to give you advice MH. you need a sounding board you don't need.

advice you know what the answers are in. point of fact so the advice is a waste. of time one of the great things I. realized why I was effective on a. Suicide Hotline in many cases I'm just a. sounding board I'm let some somebody say. stuff out loud instead of having it bang. around in their head which is either. confusing or it makes sense in a bad way. or you say stuff out loud and you get a. better grip on it MH so a friend who's a. great sounding board and you could even. say in advance look I'm not looking for. advice I'm just looking for a sounding.

board I want to talk to stuff out I want. to hear what I'm thinking that's one. potential option you got friends that. always want to give advice. anyway so there's a little bit of a. negotiation up front with that friend or. maybe certain friends are are good for. being sounding boards and others. aren't then in a moment like what. happens if you didn't have the time to. prepare you catch yourself in a moment. which is similar to any negotiation. suddenly you caught yourself in the. middles but your gut instinct is going.

to kick in the mistake everybody makes. is they want to deny the dynamic instead. of observing it I don't want to sound. like I'm complaining I don't want to. sound like a whining complaining typical. whining complaining. female instead say I'm probably G to. sound like a typical whining complaining. female or whatever side of that argument. that you're in argument interaction. negotiation. if you simply call it out in. advance then the other side gets braced.

for it and they deal with it they don't. get to you know I don't want to sound. like I'm complaining and then the other. person is saying yeah but you're going. to go ahead and complain yeah if you say. I'm going to sound like I'm. complaining that's that 2 millimeter. shift the other person will listen and. then say. well those were actually some legitimate. points yeah so it's a combination of the. two things Each of which practice like. nobody. automatically diffuses stuff in advance.

nobody automatically does if you got to. the point where you're denying it you're. actually a little bit further down the. line you're aware of the. dynamic so now just shift from denying. to. recognizing yeah I love that I was uh. asked to give a keynote to one of my. corporate clients a couple of months. back and when they were briefing me they. did a great job they were like Jay this. audience we feel is just on the cusp. ready for your message so they said. usually they're used to dealing with.

much more hard hitting speakers who are. going to like pump them up and motivate. them but we want them to move into this. softer emotional. intelligence meditation peace space and. they said that they're probably going to. have their backs up a bit when you walk. in because they'd expect someone who's. you know going to come in a bit more but. but we really want you to be the person. who takes them in this direction. so I was like I really appreciated that. briefing because it was good for me to. have that so I walk in to this.

conference and I can tell what the. person told me on the phone is. immediately the truth I get announced I. walk out on stage there there's a few. claps but it's not the warmest reception. I've ever had in my life and I called it. out it exactly what you said I said look. I know you all think that meditation is. woooo I said I know you all think that. you know Stillness and peace and all. this stuff is a bit tangible and it's a. bit random but I promise you everything. I'm going to share with you today is. highly practical tactical and you're.

going to be able to implement it and all. of a sudden I could see people change. and it and what I was saying was true. I'm I'm very tactical about meditation. and I'm very practical about philosophy. but the Assumption people had was oh. well you know we just want someone to. motivate us and it was amazing like that. felt like one of the biggest wins that I. mean the presentation went off on a. beautiful Arc I felt such a great. rapport with the audience and it's. exactly what you just said it was. recognizing and again going back to your.

earlier Point summarizing what their. point of view was and and recognizing. that that was okay it's not that they. were wrong it's not that they were. flawed or that they weren't smart enough. it wasn't condescending it was genuine. that they had certain beliefs about. meditation and philosophy that could be. true but that I wasn't presenting it. that way right yeah so I love that and. it it was it was probably one of my. favorite speaking experiences because it. felt like such a challenge to have to. turn it around yeah and and then then.

it's highly satisfying in retrospect. right and you did it with them invisibly. like they didn't know what happened yeah. it just happened yeah yeah it was really. special when someone's in a relationship. and they're like I want to I want to get. my partner to do more personal growth I. want to get my partner to maybe it be. open up to therapy I want to get my and. you know and I hear this a lot I'm sure. you hear it too but I hear a lot of. people tell me I want my partner to. right they want their partner to become. something or do.

something how do you negotiate that and. how should that person change their. mindset in order to make it a healthier. thing than a demand the real fundamental. issue is is this a Rel right. relationship like is is this. Behavior that's consistent with the. things that you value and the things. that they. value that that's the first issue uh um. my company gets coached on EOS M um. Jonathan Smith is our our us coach and I. remember the first time we sit down with.

Jonathan he said all right so what are. your core values I'm like what do you. mean work hard be honest what more is. there learn you know have a sense of. humor he's like no no no no it's a. little first of all it's a little more. complicated than that secondly he said. then all of your relationships you'll. find all business and personal succeed. or fail based on alignment of core. values like oh wow okay that makes sense. so does this have to do with the. relationship is the behavior change that.

you're seeking from the other. person consistent with the core values. that you. share now you don't have to share every. core value but you kind of need to share. about 80% of them and if the behavior. you're asking for is really a disguise. for a change in a. value it's not going to. happen and the hard part is accepting. that you can you can value.

someone they can remain your. friend you can you can still have a. positive relationship but not that. intimate relationship not that that. lifelong commitment which the vast. majority of us are driving for you know. this great phenomenal collaborative. long-term relationship of. trust so what I would ask is for the. person to. say does this fall within do we share. enough values that this is worth the.

trouble and then the conversation is. that I'm now talking about a behavior. change that consistent with the values. that they hold if the behavior change is. inconsistent with the values that they. hold they never going to change and. we're both going to be. miserable and we're going to waste two. to two to five to seven years of our. lives and hopefully the only upside will. be when this is over I'm smarter yeah. yeah and that some some of this is it's. taken me a really long time to come to.

accept the reality of it that we're. we're not helping each other if we're. not in the right. relationship you're not helping them. they're not helping you and you can. value them as human beings and you can. wish them well so the first question is. is the behavior change I want consistent. with the values that we share MH now you. can start talking about it within that. light like so sounds like we share this.

value consequently here's how I think we. can manifest it together so that we have. a deeper. relationship in that context there's a. conversation if it's about the other. person being happier two not just you. being happier at their expense M but. it's about both of you being happier. together yeah and it's really going to. line up to what are the values yeah I I. I think you've hit the on my head the I.

believe the challenge is that we want. people to respect our values because in. some way we disrespect theirs so we want. people to Value what we value because we. actually don't like their values and I. find that that 20% you're talking about. around where you don't have to have the. same shared values I think that's when. you actually respect wait a minute they. have a different value to me in this. area and that's okay let me learn to. value that and hopefully they'll learn.

to value my deferring value and hey. guess what we may not value the same. things in this area but I respect that. person for their values because I. understand how they got to there and I. understand why they have that value we. don't have to have the same one and I. find that we're. constantly we feel like if someone. doesn't have the same exact values as us. and value the same exact things than. that we can't connect at all right and I. feel like you're going to run out of.

people chasing people across the world. trying to find someone who values what. you value in exactly the same way two. people can value their family but they. could mean two totally different things. right yeah I I find that we need to get. Beyond this idea of my values are the. most important and they're all that. value and if you don't value that then. we can't get anywhere right yeah I agree. and and then be curi about the other. side's values exactly and then how is it. added how is it added to your life yeah.

my girlfriend Wendy again she got. relationships with people that she and. she keeps in touch with people she's. known since she was s years. old I don't have those kind of. relationships you know I haven't worked. that hard at it I I I some of those. people are still alive but I rarely talk. to them and she's really opened my eyes. in so way so many ways to the value of. these great long-term relationship ships. even with people that you disagree with. operationally you know you're a Democrat. there a republican you know whatever it.

is but you know she's maintaining those. relationships and and there's a richness. to her life that I have not. maintained that I see it manifest itself. and you know I want to learn from it. that's beautiful the book's called Never. split the difference do you ever split. the difference no never now not in. relationships not business not so here's. the caveat though there's a difference. between splitting and blending okay you. know maybe this is too cerebral of an.

analogy. but. steel is 2% carbon 98%. iron that ain't splitting a. difference what's the proper blend if. there is a blend so that what we come up. with is a better product now 2% 98%. split in in human nature would be like. oh my God no you know or if I. contributed 2% I want 50% of the profit.

now you only contributed 2% well it. doesn't matter that we're far more. better off so splitting the difference. is not really about finding the best. Blend or then never split the difference. might also mean that you're 100% right. and I'm 100% wrong one of my favorite. negotiations from Geor time husband and. wife are in a discussion over real tree. versus artificial tree Christmas tree.

husband wants an artificial tree for all. the Practical reasons he thinks his wife. is being uh unreasonable unpredictable. too emotional about a real. tree and he's a. student so he uses he thinks to get his. way a great. label sounds like having a real tree met. a lot to you growing up cuz he's he's. digging in deep if somebody's if. somebody's really seemingly.

irrationally sticking to something it's. not in the some reason it's not in the. last 24 hours it may be 20 years ago and. so then she opens up and finally lays. out all the reasons for the real. tree he realizes she's completely. right her goals are much l stier and. more longlasting than his are they get a. real. tree so never spit the difference is.

also being willing to entertain the idea. that the other side's got Insight that. you don't have and you got to be open to. it and be willing to accept it which is. the same thing you want from them it's. just making this a two-way street that's. a great answer I love that Chris it's. been such a joy talking to you today and. I know that people I hope are going to. run and get the book never split the. difference but you also have a. documentary out there you were talking. about so I want you to share that with. us yeah it just came out it's called.

tactical empathy it's on Amazon we shot. it with DNA films Nick Nanton Emmy. winning. producer and it's really sort of about. the history of the hostage. sieges and how they turned out and what. we learned from them we collectively you. know my son Brandon is featured in the. documentary there's a phrase empathy is. a sneak attack on racism. empathy produces better. decisionmaking and when Nick came to me.

about the film I said you know there are. enough uh law enforcement disadvantage. Community. problems that I think empathy is going. to go a long way towards solving not all. of them just most of them and if we can. get rid of most of them that's a pretty. good start so we're going to categorize. this is going to be designed to show how. law enforcement hearing people. out is going to Tamp down a lot of the. Flames if you will so then we end up uh.

at about the same time I get I get. approached by. NYPD they want me to come and do a. training for they've got critical people. that they want emotional intelligence. training for they want to plant a seed. because they want a a more effective. NYPD which is a more apathic. NYPD and I said all right so here's the. deal let us film it for the. documentary and my son Brandon's going.

to do the training not me you get us for. full day Brandon is as good or better at. this than I am and the interesting. additional feature is my son Brandon's. mother's. African-American effectively to the. world is African-American big boy big. big guy play played lineman in college. football sizable human being the very. kind of guy that if he got out of his. car will cause most police officers to.

think they got a fight on their hands. just by looking at. him he's going to do the training and so. we've got a segment in there of. Brandon doing this phenomenal training. for these guys and showing them how. empathy is going to make you more. effective it's going to build bridges in. a community community's got problems. with law enforcement that you didn't. create. you stepped into this job trying to do. the right thing that doesn't matter of. the baggage between the communities you.

got to deal with that so there's also. besides the history of the company and. some some pretty good hostage stories. that's brilliant then we're we're trying. to back into police Community. relationships a little bit with the with. the doc and I hope it helps law. enforcement get better training so that. there's less problems with. the this dis Advantage communities yeah. that's fantastic what's it called. tactical empathy on on Amazon on Amazon. awesome I can't wait to watch it sounds.

fantastic Chris it's been such a. pleasure talking to you we end every. episode of on purpose with a final five. or a fast five each question has to be. answered with one sentence maximum it's. a lightning round yeah lightning round. in a lightning round one word one word. one sentence yeah you know I get to. proceed to the championship level after. this I get through it yeah exactly all. right so Chris V your Fast Five so. question number one Chris what's the. best advice you've ever heard or. received never take directions from.

somebody you wouldn't trade places with. question number two what's the worst. advice you've ever heard or received oh. wow. um you know hang in there just to prove. them. wrong uh third thing how would you. define your current. purpose making a world a better place. question number four why is empathy not. a weakness. ah empathy is strength empathy is. reasoning empathy is a.

superpower uh and it's got nothing to do. with weakness and Fifth and final. question we ask this to every guest. who's ever been on the show if you could. create a law that everyone in the world. had to follow what would it be be nice. first nice guys don't finish last yeah. no well you don't got to stay nice just. got to be nice first got it I love it. Chris Voss everyone the book is called. Never split the difference the. documentary is called tactical empathy. I'm so grateful Chris for your time and.

energy I hope we get to do this again. this was just the beginning of our. relationship and I feel like I learned. so much this is definitely an episode. I'm going to listen to again and I. highly recommend you all go and read the. book because there are so many great. insights principles tips strategies and. stories inside of it and of course go. and watch the doc on Amazon tactical. empathy uh Chris thank you so much for. being here so grateful it was a pleasure. to yeah thank you thank you so much for. listening to this conversation if you.

enjoyed it you'll love my chat with Adam. Grant on why discomfort is the key to. growth and the strategies for unlocking. your hidden potential if you know you. want to be more and achieve more this. year go check it out right now you set a. goal today you achieve it in 6 months. and then by the time it happens it's. almost a relief there's no sense of. meaning and purpose you sort of expected. it and you would have been disappointed. if it didn't happen.