Emma Watson On The Years She Pretended She Was Fine

I realized have the career and the life. that looks like the dream, but are you. really happy, Emma? Are you really. healthy? And have to admit to myself. that I wasn't was one of the scariest. things I've ever had to do. >> The number one health and wellness. podcast, >> J Shetty. >> J Shetty, >> the one, the only J. Shetty. >> Emma, welcome to On Purpose. I'm so. grateful that you're here and. >> you know you've kind of been out of the.

public eye for a while now. >> Yes. >> And don't do that many interviews. I've. watched the interviews you have done. even before we plan to do this. And I. wanted to ask from an intention point. almost of why now? Why today? Why here? >> I think I mentioned but I read your book. um because my my dear friend Nuper told. me that I should and every now and again. I would see you come up on my feed. I. don't spend much time on Instagram. anymore, but when I did, I just felt.

like you were having a different. conversation. And it's not that I have. stopped doing interviews because. I want to hide myself away. I think it's. because I wanted to be able to have a. certain type of conversation that I. didn't seem able to find a space for. And so I called Nooper and said, "I. think I just reached out to Jay to see. if you would let me come and do his. podcast on Monday." And she was like, "I've been waiting for this. I wondered. when you would do this." I was like,

"How did you know I was going to do it?". She's like, "I don't know. I just felt. like this was coming." So, um, here I. am. And you said yes and the timing. worked. I I contacted you last week and. it's Monday and so. >> well from Well, that means the world to. me. Truly. I'm so grateful for that. because the few interactions and. conversations we've had since then and. you've sent me a few things to read over. whether it's journals or reflections and. honestly I I think I just said it to you. a few moments ago and I mean it even if.

we weren't having this conversation. today and you just sent me those things. to reflect on myself that would have. already been a gift and so the. opportunity to actually sit with you and. to talk about these things and have the. space to have a conversation that you. feel you haven't had before means the. world to me and so thank you for. trusting me and it's I I look forward to. getting to know you so much better. But. let's let's dive in. I want I wanted to. start by asking you like you said. something there that was really. beautiful because you stopped for a. moment then you said it's easier to be. honest. >> and and I was wanted to understand what.

that what that meant to you and how that. feels. Such a big part of my job was. trying to think three steps ahead of how. everything that I would say would be. could negatively impact the film that I. was trying to do justice to and do. service to and make sure that people. understood what the director had. intended and I felt this enormous sense. of responsibility all the time to honor. so many people's work that put together.

something like a film or you know even. to some degree. I just did a fragrance. with Prada and it's the first perfume. bottle that you can like refill and I. don't know I I take my job seriously I. guess and so interviews to me felt a lot. like chess and it required so much. energy and I think what's nice about the. way that I'm showing up today is I'm. just showing up for myself and for once. I actually am not here to um speak on.

behalf of anyone else or anything else. other than myself, which is unusual. >> Yeah. I think I think it's such a. fascinating thing because as a viewer, even before I got closer to the. industry, >> as a viewer, everything's made to feel. in traditional media so. easy and it has levity and it feels like. you're getting someone's real. personality and and then you realize. that you are. There's definitely reality. to it and truth to it. >> Yes. >> But at the same time, naturally, it's.

work. >> Yeah. >> And and there's a job. And I think it's. not as. >> And you can shed more light on this. I. don't think it's always as insidious or. as dark as people may think it is, but. there's there's just it's a job and it's. work and there's results that matter, >> right? >> 100%. And I think within those contexts, everyone is trying to be as authentic as. they humanly can be. But there's. something about I think it's why I. mentioned um earlier about why I felt. like this was a good space is there's.

something inherently written into. certain types of forms of media which is. that it it doesn't matter what intention. or or how authentically you want to show. up the form like somehow doesn't allow. it. >> to some degree and I've become obsessed. with this recently. I've been looking at. okay what is written into the form of. something like Twitter or Instagram or. Tik Tok or a podcast versus or a. photograph versus a film versus a piece. of writing and it's really interesting. to see what a different medium or.

different form allows or doesn't allow. and or like actually creates or. encourages. I've never done a podcast. before, but I love I think what I love. about it is the is the intimacy of it. It's like I feel like people listen to. podcasts when they're like I certainly. do anyway like first thing in the. morning when I'm taking my shower or I'm. going on my walk or I'm making my. breakfast. It's really like personal. intimate time and I think the long form. version of these kinds of conversations.

uh allows for such a different kind of. discussion that I don't think was. possible before. >> Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with. you more. I was going to ask you. actually because I want everyone to get. up to date with where you are now. Like. what is what does your day-to-day life. look like? You just said like I wake up. and I shower and I go on a walk. Like. what does your day-to-day life look like. right now? And what what makes what's it. made of and what are the things that you. love and look forward to? >> I recently started riding a bicycle and. yes, I started riding a bicycle before. my driving van, but now it's.

particularly fortuitous that I also ride. a bicycle um for that reason. But. >> I thought that was mainstream news. >> Yeah. Oh my god. I was getting phone. calls like it's on the BBC. It's on. international worldwide news. I was like. my shame is that it's everywhere. This. is I mean what I say it's I don't know. I think in a funny way what the sweetest. result of it was getting so many. messages from being people being like. happened to me too. I feel you. This is. awful. It sucks. Um which was kind of.

nice in a way but um. >> lift. >> Yeah totally. Do you need a lift? It's. like actually yes. But I think again. it's funny like I I went from when you. work on movies I don't know if people. know this but like they literally will. not insure you to drive yourself to. work. I've asked so many times. >> You have to be driven. >> You have to be driven. It's like not a. choice. And especially because they need. you there, you know, down to the minute. basically depending on what they have. going on. And so I went from basically. only driving myself on weekends or.

during holiday to then when I became a. student driving myself all the time and. yeah I did not have the experience or. skills uh clearly which I now will and. and and do. But I think again this was. one of these like awkward transitions I. made from kind of living this like very. very structured life to living a life. where I was like okay I guess I'm going. to get myself to this place and I'm. going to like do this thing that I've. basically not done since I was 10 years.

old. So, it's been a discovery and a. journey that's been um yeah, I guess. humbling because. on a movie set, I'm able to do all of. these like extremely complex things, stunt, sing, dance, like do this thing, do that, whatever. And I'm like, "Yep, don't worry about it, guys. No worries. I've got you." And then I get home and. I'm like, "Okay, Emma, you seem unable. to remember keys. you money to like keep. yourself at 30 mph in a in a in a 30 m.

speed limit. Like you you don't seem. able to do some pretty like basic life. things. And it it was definitely kind of. Yeah, I had days where I just wanted to. turn around to people and be like, I. used to be good at things. Okay. I used. to be really good at things. And I know. it doesn't look like that right now, but. um I I used to I I can do things. normally. Um, so yeah, it's been uh it's. been humbling. >> I feel I feel like all of us I feel like. all of us can relate to that though.

because doesn't everyone forget their. keys, their wallet, doesn't know where. things are? Like these are these are. like ser And by the way, I was I think I. was three points away from losing my. license before I moved to the States. >> Thank you for that confession. I. appreciate that so much. >> Because I was in the States for I've. been in the States now for 9 years and I. think it happened just but then all the. points get wiped off. >> Wow. And I think I'm now back to six. points. I spent two months in London a. year. >> Okay. Every time I go back, I seem to. >> Oh, much better. Wow.

>> So, I'm confessing to you. >> But I haven't lost it. >> A lot of people actually a lot of people. have like taken it upon themselves to. come and confess to me, which I found. like very like very endearing and like. really really appreciate it. But no, I. think, you know, I think something I've. been realizing is we most of us live in. a state of like I'm just trying to kind. of figure it out and keep it together. And the only thing that is different. between us is people's willingness to be.

honest about. that. The degree to which they can admit. to actually I'm just like scrabbling. around trying to keep the pieces. together versus um oh yeah I know. everything's amazing and everything's. incredible and I'm having the best day. ever and aren't you? And you know, so I. do love the people who who are just. willing to be like, "Yeah, it's uh it's. not going so well today." I'm like, "Great, amazing. What a good starting.

point." Like I don't know, failure as a. starting point. Feels like I feel like. attempting things is so compelling. And. >> of course success is wonderful, but I. love to see people who are like, "I'm. really bad at this, but I'm going to. try." like I love you. That's everything. to me. Everything. >> And that seems to be becoming harder and. harder now. >> Like that desire to attempt something. that you might not be good at because. it's exposed or because everyone will. see it or because everyone will hear.

about it. >> Talking about attempting things. I mean, you're currently studying, right? You're. learning. >> Yes. Yes. Well, two things I want to say. there is I think in a way I was sort of. I mean I'm someone who's always cared. about vulnerability and authenticity, but I think I was also forced into it to. a degree that that maybe even I wasn't. ready for and that like I just started. so young that like I had to learn in. public. I had to make mistakes in public.

and say, "Oh, okay. Now I've learned. this." And I had to be willing to go. back and be like, hm, like there was. some gaps here. Um, and here's what I. know now. And I think people's I agree. with you. I think it's becoming. increasingly difficult to learn in. public and continuing to learn. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I. I have gone back to school and why I. continue to do it is because I want to. make sure that I have things to say that. are worth saying. And I think you can.

only do that if you take a minute. sometimes and. listen to some people who aren't you, you know, like not just the sound of my. own my own wonderful voice. Um, so yeah, it's been it's been great. And I think. also I needed to I wanted to be. inspired. I think being around my. favorite piece has been being around. young people who still believe that the. world is malleable and things are. changeable and that like anything can be.

done is um such important energy. There's so much dystopian fiction at the. moment and dystopian movies so dark. >> It's so dark and I'm just like. >> what happened to thinking about the. utopia? What happened to like planning. for the best case scenario? like where. where did we lose. yeah vision excitement imagination. possibility so I think it's been um yeah.

it's been wonderful to be around young. people and just to sit there and listen. >> do you ever I mean you clearly read so. much do you have to take yourself away. to do it in order to be able to do it do. you have to cordon off time like how are. you still managing to study and learn. because that seems like it's important. to you Yeah. You you reminded me as you. were talking of one of my spiritual. teachers, my monk teacher, who always. said to me, if you want to move three. steps forward, you have to go three. steps deep first. >> Whoa. >> And what I found often in my life is I'm.

trying to go four steps forward and I. haven't yet gone four steps deep. And so. it's almost like I mean this is probably. a a terrible analogy, but maybe thinking. of the movie The Substance. I don't know. if you watched it. >> Okay, fine. Okay. Terrible. Let's let's. remove No, no, no. Let's forget about. it. But but it's that idea of like every. extra step you take when you haven't. learned and you haven't experimented and. you haven't attempted. >> is taking away from your ability to move. forward. And sometimes I think when we.

feel stuck or when we think things are. not moving or they're not progressing. >> You may be a sign to say well pause and. go deeper for a second or pause and go. inward for a second. And so to me, hearing that from you, I I find that and. and I'm I definitely fail at this all. the time. >> There are so many times I'm trying to. push more forward than I've gone deep. >> And so whenever I notice that myself and. I notice that I'm just kind of trying. everything and nothing is working, it's. actually just the universe and self.

saying to me, go read, go study. And so. I found that I've had to really carve. out time to make time to do what I love, which is to read and study. But I found. that I'm someone who doesn't love 30. minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a. reader. I'm someone who needs to read. for 3 or 4 hours, if not more. And so I. found that carving out deep immersive. time is more important to me than this. kind of mechanical 30 40 minutes a day, which is great for you if that works for. you as a habit. It doesn't bit of an.

extremist and I just need to spend a. whole weekend reading. >> as opposed to I don't need to read every. day. So I'll try and I try once a month. on a weekend to just absorb into a. subject that I love and I'll take a. course, I'll go to a class, I'll watch a. TED talk online, I'll read as many books. as I can and I try and immerse myself. that way. What's your learning style? I'm the same as you. And actually u. someone who I really respect and ask for. advice for often and I ask for feedback.

on on myself. He said to me, Emma, I. think if you did 90% of what you wanted. to do at 50% of the speed, you would get. so much more like life would be so much. better. And I was like, "Wow, 50% of the. speed and only 90% of what I want to. do." And he was like, I think that's the. minimum to be honest. And I was like, wow. But I think it, yeah, what you said. resonates. I think I often have to.

remind myself that it's not about. speedily getting somewhere. It's just. not the point. Things are supposed to. happen um with a certain timing. And so. um yeah, resonates. And and to your. point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes. and look at something. I need I need. kind of like a week on holiday and then. I'll start to deeply get into something. and I need quiet and I hyperfocus and I.

that's when I you know I love it but I. can't I can't do little itty bitty bits. It drives me nuts. >> It just doesn't work for me. >> It doesn't work. So it doesn't work for. me. Resates. >> You said that you felt that you had to. learn in public and then you made. mistakes. Like what were mistakes that. felt like mistakes then. >> that made you feel like oh gosh I made. that mistake in public but I was 10. years old or whatever it was. >> and now you look back and you think oh. you know I was able to process it. >> Yeah. I I think the big one was feminism.

and intersectional feminism and frankly. it just like wasn't taught. you know, I. had to really seek out and I'm really. grateful actually that I was in many. ways quite lovingly called in as opposed. to I mean some of it was not but I think. that was definitely a moment where I had. to say okay I'm talking about something. really big and important and it's.

actually really important to sit this in. some context which I have not done and I. think that was a big moment. I think it. was more there was an omission that was. there was things that were missing as. opposed to I had said something wrong. I. just needed I just needed to fill in. more gaps. And so um that was when I. started or that was actually in the. middle. I had a I had a feminist book. club called Art Shad Shelf. >> And um so that was part of those.

conversations. But it was a good moment. for me to learn that feeling. uncomfortable sometimes is good. I think. we have an alarm system that goes off. which is like I'm uncomfortable. This. feels uncomfortable. So something bad. must be happening and I must leave as. soon as possible. And actually I think. that was when I started to learn, oh. actually me being uncomfortable in a. space um might be a good sign because it. might mean I'm about to learn something. And I want to attribute this that was.

Mara Larasai who who helped me. understand that and uh was a very very. valuable teaching. So now when I'm in a. space and listening to things and I feel. uncomfortable I don't think it means I. need to bolt or something bad's. happening. >> Yeah. >> Maybe something really good is about to. happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I feel like that goes back to. what we started with this idea of. attempting means discomfort. >> and attempting means incomplete. >> Yeah. >> In that and I love I love that point you.

made that actually whenever we're. sharing anything it's not that it's not. true. It's that it's not complete. >> Yes. >> And mostly when we see people say things. or. >> share ideas, it's very rare to have. anyone ever share a complete idea. because that means they would have had. to think about it from every single. vantage point. Yeah. which is not even. humanly possible. >> It's not possible. It's not possible. And I think Adrien Marie Brown, I don't. know if you've ever had, she's she wrote.

an amazing book which um is one of her. more recent ones which is called Loving. Corrections. and she speaks to kind of. exactly this, which is. there's kind of this like. that we see online when people don't. attribute something perfectly to someone. else or they're missing something and. it's like, isn't the whole point of this. that we're in conversation? And if it's. the right person, you can see that a.

good intention is there, >> then maybe we can. kind of do it in a way that doesn't need. to be I mean obviously there's there's. important time and place for holding. people accountable. >> Um but maybe I don't know attributing. like great we're all going to help each. other kind of pad this out fill this. out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a hard I think. that's the hard part. It's like how do. you differentiate between holding. someone accountable.

>> and giving them grace? And that's a. really interesting discussion in and of. itself. And I don't think I I have the. answer or know exactly what it is, but I. feel like that's a thought exercise as. humans that if we were to do it would. actually I don't know. What's your take? >> Maybe the grace is attributing good. intention and the accountability is the. courage it takes to actually say. something to someone. because it's such. a scary thing to do and it often.

requires a lot of emotional labor. >> and I find this a lot as a woman when. I'm especially as a woman who's dating. that like I I will just be like is it. worth me explaining is it worth me. explaining this thing or should I just. not take the time to do this because. sometimes I will really I care about. doing it kindly and compassionately. And it's very rare for me to attribute. bad intent to anyone, but you know,

sometimes it does fall on on deaf ears. and you're like that text message took. me like 40 minutes like to word. perfectly or that voice note or whatever. and you're like is this making a. difference? Like am I getting through to. any is transformative justice real? Like. is this is this label worth it? But I. think I don't have a perfect answer. I I. I'm not I haven't lived through enough. of it to know. I guess I've just reached. a point where it's like I'd rather I'd.

rather die trying. I'd rather die having. tried. And maybe some small piece of it, even if it's not now, even if it's at. some future point, like something I've. said just like goes, "Oh, something at. the back of my mind here, someone says. something to me, then you know, maybe. it's worth it.". >> Yeah. I will never believe that one. negates the other and that my experience. of that person. I don't get to keep and cherish.

I to come back to our earlier thing like. I just don't think these things are. either or. I hope people who don't agree. with my opinion will love me and I hope. I can keep loving people who I don't. necessarily share the same opinion with. And I think that's a very very important. way for me that I need to be able to. move through life. I really do believe. in. having conversations. And I guess where.

I've landed is. it's not so much what we say or what we. believe, but very often how we say it. When you. think about Little Emma, >> Yes. >> like what was a childhood memory that. you have, a core memory that you have. that you feel has defined who you are. today somewhat? >> I think I won't share the specific. memory cuz it's so personal, but. I think I've always felt other people's.

pain very intensely. M. >> um until. maybe recently, I. did not know how to give myself grace. and navigate. seeing my sensitivity as a strength and. knowing that. it's like my gift, but it also. means I have to care for it in specific.

specific ways. When you are given gifts, there's often. kind of have to compensate in some other. ways. And in the same way that like my. position in life and fame has given me. this extraordinary power, it's also. given me a lot of responsibility. And. these things often have these kind of I. don't know when or why it started, but I. think. I've always whoever it was that was.

suffering in the room, I was always the. most aware of them. >> And I think that has formed. a lot of why I could act. It was almost. like I was kind of sucking all of this. in and then I needed to. let it out somewhere or unleash it. somewhere. And I remember when my. parents saw me on stage for the first. time afterwards, they were just like, "Where did that come from? You don't. have any of these experiences." I.

recorded a song for my 12th birthday. My. mom bought me a day in a recording. studio. And I sing Natalie and Bruy is. torn. Like I've had my heart broken. 50,000 times, you know? Like I've been. married and divorced and whatever. And. I'm 12 and I've never had a boyfriend. and I don't know anything about love. Have you ever thought about where it. came from or. >> I would imagine I I can't say for sure. I would imagine that. my family structure has not been a.

traditional family structure. And that. feeling of knowing that. I'm from a situation where we just don't. quite fit the kind of nuclear family. mold. And I think coming back from. France and trying to figure out how to. sort of integrate and being the eldest. and having my younger brother and having. my mom and like trying to sort of be.

some sort of glue or holding together. for everyone's feelings. >> I'm pretty sure that's probably where it. >> that's where it started. >> Yeah. Um, and then I guess just being. aware of other people who might feel the. way I did, which is like, who else in. here doesn't feel like they quite fit? >> I've always found that it took me a. while to recognize, but when I did, it. was so helpful that a lot of what I do. today is because I mediated my parents'.

marriage growing up. >> And so I developed all these skills of. listening and empathy and grace and. compassion because I was doing it for. two people that I loved. >> Yes. And I see it as a strength and yes. it comes with it comes with certain. things for sure it comes you're. absolutely right but at the same time. I've always seen it as a strength. >> and it's something that has served me. well in my marriage it's served me well. in my relationships. >> and at the same time it has certain. >> consequences that that that make you.

different or or make you process things. differently and so and I remember one. thing you shared with me. >> that I was reading it you you said, "I. used to spend my weekdays with mom and. my weekends with dad.". >> And you said it almost felt like you. were changing costumes sometimes. >> Yes. >> And they're all like this two lives kind. of thing. >> Yes. Yes. >> And and I feel that's so relatable. I. feel like so many people can relate to. that. Whether. >> whether their family was more. traditional or wasn't, >> I think every child has had this feeling. of not fitting in quite and not knowing.

which life they're meant to lead and. that feels like it's kind of. >> Yes. >> played into yours. >> Yes, for sure. I think it's also why. I've had to really navigate my. relationship towards art and acting. because I'm pretty sure that I was using. acting as a way of escaping how painful. um my parents. like it wasn't just the divorce. It was. just like the continuing situation of.

living between two different houses and. two different lives and two different. sets of values. And as a child like. being aware of like hm we don't quite. have the support we need here for this. like this is not quite we're not quite. like and I think it does it makes you. it made me a slightly. serious child because I was like had. that consciousness and then when I would.

go and spend the weekend with my dad it. was like a very different set of rules, very different situation and so you do. you kind of like. and I think everyone can relate to this. to an extent that it's not that you are. be like wanting to become different. people but it's you there are different. expectations of you in different places. that you understand that you need to. fill and so I think some of that split. then became I was like okay wow you know.

my parents have very different views. views on different things. And the hard. part of that was that no one gave me any. easy answers. >> It meant I had to form all of my own. opinions myself because there was no. consensus. >> And it made me a critical thinker for. sure because. >> and so that was amazing and also really. like gosh, okay, I need to decide what I. think is important in life and what my. opinions are. No one's handing me this.

>> Yeah. Maybe it also made me aware of. um not wanting to be so split as well. >> and why. it's been important to me to try to. remain whole. >> Yeah. >> In all the different circumstances of my. life and ask myself questions about how. I can do that best because I think I. experienced as a child that the split is. painful. Like if you're living a reality. one way but presenting something else,

those are the moments when it can it can. you can really feel torn apart. And. I I recognized that and I didn't want. that to be my life. I didn't want. pretend to be my real life. >> Yeah. I mean that's so I I I can so. relate to you personally on the idea of. not having a blueprint and having to. create my own. >> Yeah. >> And how often when you don't have a.

blueprint, you feel you have two. choices. >> And that's where you feel torn. >> Whereas when you look at it as a whole. and go, okay, well now I get to craft my. own narrative from this. >> and I may take a few pieces from here. and a few pieces from here and I'm going. to form my own puzzle. >> But I don't have to choose a path. Yeah, >> it's really beautiful when you do it, but it's really hard because it just. feels like there are two. impact, >> you know, your work. And you you said. there, you said that one thing you.

mentioned that really stood out to me. was you felt that acting. >> was in some way escaping that kind of. which version do I have to be? And I. think so much of what we do for work or. so much of what we pursue as humans. >> is based on something we're trying to. build, create, >> maybe escape from, maybe to reveal. something. And I think we haven't often. looked at. >> work that way. Like sometimes we choose. a career because we know it will make. our parents happy. And so we're living a. pattern or sometimes you choose. something because it breaks the pattern.

that you were growing up in. And it it's. fascinating to me to look at that. for. you, you were acting in school plays. since you were a a young girl. >> And was acting always something you were. going to do, or did do you feel like it. was this cross-section of what was. happening in your personal life that. actually made that feel like the. direction you would choose? >> I think it's so interesting that you. said those words, reveal and escape, that that they kind of the same thing. because I think that it all started with.

a poem. I did a poetry competition when. I was nine called the Daisy Pratt poetry. competition. And I'm actually naturally. quite a shy person. Uh and so actually. for me to stand up in front of people. feels like an out-of- body experience. Like there's so much adrenaline coursing. through my veins that it does feel like. a moment outside of time. And I remember. the exhilaration of.

living the kind of ups and downs of this. poem. And maybe because there wasn't. space to have conversations or express. myself at that time in the way that I. needed to. I did it through performance. And I also did it as a way of getting to. feel free for a moment of of what I was. like the discomfort of that time of not. quite knowing who I was or how to be in.

the world. And. as I've become more. healed and whole and and more. comfortable being myself, it's been. interesting to ask myself, do you still. need acting? do you still need to act? Like why. what are you doing that for? And like. the kind of it used to feel like almost. like a compulsion that I needed to do. it. And what's really interesting now is. I don't feel quite.

that kind of urgency of needing to do. it. And I wonder if it's because. actually. I have spaces where I can now take some. of those feelings and talk about some of. the things I I don't think I had space. to to voice. >> in in. >> without doing it on camera in front of. thousands of people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Which which is which is scary in. its own way, right? It's like it's easy. to. >> it's easy to think, "Oh, that makes. sense." But then it's like, well, no,

it's it's really challenging. >> to do that second part. >> Yeah. >> Even even if it makes sense rationally. or logically. And. >> was was that what in in 2019 when you. kind of pulled away. >> was your reason I want to heal and work. on myself or was it actually I don't. feel a compulsion anymore? Like was that. the inflection point of. >> doing some self work or was that the. inflection point of need to pause? I. realized I was drawing on painful stuff.

in my life that I was actually healing. and I didn't want to keep revisiting in. order to do some of the more intense, scarier, sadder things that I had to do. I realized. I remember. by Beth's. um deathbed by her by her graveside when. we shot those films. Like normally there. are like these painful memories that I. would use for those moments. And I. realized I was like I don't know if this.

is super great for me actually to keep. to keep revisiting these or if I want to. use these as my tools and I don't think. that means I'll never come back to. acting. I think it just meant I was like. hm I wonder if there's a different way. to do this. Mhm. >> I think the second thing was to be. really honest. I was coming to those sets. with an expectation that I think I had. developed on Harry Potter, which was. that we were the people I worked with.

were going to be my family and that we. were going to be lifelong friends. I. came to work looking for friendship. and that was a very painful experience. for me outside of Harry Potter and in. Hollywood. like. bonebreakingly painful. Um because most. people don't come to those environments. looking for friendships. They're looking. for this is my chance. This is my role. This is what I want out of it. I'm.

focused. This is my job. This is my. career. Like let's go. And I was not of. that mindset. And so I found I found the. rejection really painful. >> The friendship rejection. Yeah. >> Yeah. Of like I re I was like I I think. it's so unusual to make a set of films. for 12 years and we were a community. Like we we really were. And so I took.

that as an exploitation into my into my. other workplaces and I just got my I. just got my ass kicked. I really did. Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it. just hierarchy? Was it. >> I think it was a combination. It was a. molotov cocktail of all of the above. As. we mentioned earlier, I'm just not thick. skinned. Maybe I just wasn't built for. those kinds of highly competitive. environments. It Yeah, it broke me. Yeah.

But in a way, I'm proud that it did. because I guess that means I have. something left to break. I have a heart. left to break. So, it was a hard learning, but I think. there's something that. I'm proud of in a way that there were. certain things I couldn't withstand.

I'd much rather keep my humanity. >> Think there might be a tissue. >> I'm managing to like. inside. >> You need it. There is a tissue. >> That's really No, but I really. appreciate you saying that and and I I. mean it's so powerful to hear how you've. processed it. like just what you added. there cuz when when I saw your voice.

change and and just when you were. expressing it. >> and and it and it hit me as you said it. and I felt it and then the way you. reflected on it kind of helped that. feeling rise really beautifully because. what you said is so true that if you. were broken by a frequency of envy and. competition and whatever else it was. that's only proof that you were. vibrating in a way that didn't want to. be pulled down into that. And it's so.

interesting though how when we break to. those sorts of emotions and ideas, we. feel we're the weak one. >> Yeah. >> When it's completely the opposite. That. was that was the most painful thing was. I thought I I beat myself up. for years afterwards really thinking. like punishing myself saying you. couldn't hack it, you weren't strong. enough. >> And yeah, what what bliss and what peace.

I think to understand that. to have come out on top. would have been. a greater failure I think in terms of. who I actually care about being. >> Yeah. It's almost like if you abandoned. yourself in that moment in order to. align with that new way of thinking. >> Yeah. >> You'd probably beat yourself up more.

long term and have a much harder time. >> Yes, I think so. I don't know. I've just. got to this place where it's just if it. costs me any part of my piece, it's just. too expensive. And of course, like. there's opportunities that I think, wow, like that would be amazing. And. I care deeply about. my work. Um, but I think it's just I.

think I just used to completely. sacrifice myself for whatever the thing. was I was trying to achieve. And that. could be a grade, it could be a movie, it could be promoting. I just was. obsessed with excellence and doing. everything, giving my all to everything. and doing it to the best of my ability. And unless you have the right people. around you that can hold that kind of. level of commitment, you're going to get. smashed up. You're just going to get.

crushed. And so I think now it's just a. case of me being like, okay, I know that. for me to do anything, I have to have. people in the room that care about me. more than whatever the product is or. whatever the final product is. And if. that isn't the case, I cannot be there. because I'm just someone who like gives. it all. It's how I'm built. And I think. understanding that makeup of myself and.

not punishing myself for that, but just. knowing it needs certain kinds of. conditions is how. I've come to hopefully I'll keep doing. it forever and probably every day, but. accepting myself. Yeah, it seems like I'. I've spoken to so many and we were. talking about this last week when we. were when we were speaking on the phone. that I I've worked with so many young. people, musicians who who've all been. told like, "All right, if you don't do. this over the next 12 months, you're not.

going to make it.". >> Yeah. >> Or like if you don't do this right now, if you don't say yes to this song or. this movie, it's like you might as well. wave it goodbye. You're never going to. get the Oscar or the whatever it may be. or the Grammy or whatever it is. And I. can't imagine being a young person like. I'm 37 now and it's you process. >> ideas like that differently. Yeah. >> But if you're in your teens or even 20s. there's and maybe even 30s, but you.

process those statements with so much. gravitas, especially when it's someone. of influence and power saying it to you. >> Yeah. It feels like being surrounded by. people who really believe in you and. your longevity and your art versus But. that's hard to find. >> It is. It's hard to find. And. you know, I I I had a wonderful team. Like I I really did. I think it's just. like understanding that no one at the. end of the day is going to be in the. room like when you're actually doing the.

thing. You have to carry that moment and. you have to carry that pressure. Also, making films, the hours on them are so. demanding that to have your own life. alongside that, to have that balance is. almost impossible. It's so all or. nothing. It's so all-encompassing, especially if you're in a lead role. Um, you kind of go through these, you know, working six days a week, 14 to.

16 hour days, and then you're just kind. of dropped off at the end of it. and. maybe you'll have a 2 or 3 month gap and. then there's just kind of like nothing. >> And so you're like riding this like. incredible peak of like adrenaline and. cortisol and then you just get like. dropped off the edge and then you're. like, "Okay, wait, now I have to be a. functioning human again and I have to. like figure out how to be a person in. the real world." And. I think some of those extremes.

then force an actor to either decide, well, I'm going to back to back it, so. I'm going to basically go from one movie. to the next, and that's going to be my. full life. Or you have to navigate these huge. impacts on your nervous system that you. need a system and a support system to. help you navigate. And I think it's why. addiction and. mental illness. in my profession and in a lot of high. stress, high profile professions is so.

common place because you're trying to. balance out these enormous. chemical. ups and downs. >> Yeah. talk talk to people about why. because I think from the outside. >> when someone sees a red carpet. >> or when someone sees an event it looks. really glamorous like until I ever. attended anything and you know I I. always looked at it as like oh my gosh. it's so glamorous and everyone's there. and everyone must be friends and. everyone must know each other because.

they all you know but but then you're. not saying that and neither is and and. anytime I've ever been on a red carpet. everyone's anxious and everyone's. nervous and that's the real experience. People are almost waiting to leave. Yes. >> And some people do the red carpet and. leave immediately, but but what's going. on there? Like walk us through like for. people who may not. >> I think the first step is to just. understand. even though you're wearing an incredibly. glamorous dress and you're there to do. something exciting, I don't think. there's anything that can make it not.

weird that people are screaming at the. top of their lungs. Like it it just. everything in your body says something's. wrong. like people are screaming. something's wrong. >> But then you have to try to pretend as. though. >> this is all normal and you're unfased. So you have like two things going on. One, you're like navigating this like. sensory overload that's like telling. you, oh my god, something is really.

wrong. >> Telling you how to pose, telling you. where to look, telling you. >> Yeah. So, so you're trying to navigate, okay, something feels wrong, but I need. to also simultaneously make it seem as. though I am the most graceful and the. most calm I've ever been in my whole. life. And I need to like pose for this. person and there's 50 different cameras. and I need to make sure that I look. perfectly into each and every one. And I. probably would have had four different. notes from the stylist about how I'm. supposed to stand and what I need to do. for the dress. And then I've got like 25.

different talking points from the movie. of like what I need to get across and. also avoid saying or talking about. And. so like you need to be thinking about. that. And the the juggle is crazy. And. then I think everyone is in this like. kind of jumped up state. And so like. trying to have a normal conversation. with anyone is basically impossible. because you feel like an insane person. And so these are not environments in.

which you like have a nice chat with. someone really. I mean, maybe if you're. really lucky and you've worked with. someone for a long time and you've. established some trust, but I think that. was the other thing that was like really. difficult about movies and what like I. kind of laugh at. Well, not not in a. mean way. I don't but like you know you. always get asked when you're like. promoting these big films like so do you. guys hang out on set and like do you. guys hang out and like are you all. friends and everyone sort of like nods. enthusiastically but the truth is no one.

has seen each other outside of work like. very very very rarely mostly because the. schedule is insane. Everyone's so tired. that when they get any time off you're. going straight back to your hotel room. to try to like claw in any piece of rest. that you possibly can. And like I don't. know like it friendships. require time and trust and presence and. those things like very rarely come. about. They they can and they like do. occasionally but it it's more of a more.

of a you know solar eclipse than a than. an everyday situation. So yeah, but you. have to pretend. I think that's the part. that starts to feel icky after a while. is like you you have to pretend that. you're all best friends. And what's so. sad and and I I know this isn't just the. case for me, but like I think people. wish they were. >> I think we wish we did have those real. connections and we did have that real. support. And so having to pretend that. something exists that you actually.

really want but don't have is like. >> it's like pretty grainy in the wound, you know? It's like it's pretty like. tough pill to swallow to have to act out. something that you wish were real but. isn't real. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think that's the part that. starts to kind of. >> Yeah. I can only speak for myself but. those are definitely the moments where. I've been like this feels dark. Like is. anyone else like this feels dark? Um, >> yeah. And and there's such a real.

reminder that it's still work. And it's. almost like asking anyone who works at. any company and saying, "Hey, do you. hang out with your team after work every. night?" And the answer is probably no. Yeah. No. Everyone's go home to their. family. And maybe you've got a couple, of course, you got a couple of friends. at work. And it's wonderful if you have. a friend at work that you work out with. or see after hours, but you're not. hanging out as the whole crew. It's it's. very unlikely. >> 100%. and and it and it is that reality. check of no but this is also just work.

>> and their character stories are not. their personal stories and it doesn't. and that's why I wanted to go back you. mentioned that you talked about how. Harry Potter had a family feel. >> and I wanted to ask you like how did. that come about in the first like what. what was where where did the auditions. come from like how did that become a. part of your life. >> yes so I did not go to a performing arts. school I'd never done anything. I never. acted professionally, but they came they. they did like a basically countrywide.

search to find Harry, Hermione, and Ron. And so they asked my school if they. wanted to submit any students who love. drama who wanted to audition. And so I. was one of I think about 12 students. that was asked if I wanted to audition. I don't know. It was weird. I had this. weird weighted fated sense of destiny. pretty much from the moment that that.

they said they mentioned the audition. I. remember I brought I think maybe like. seven different Beanie Babies with me. along and like all these different like. lucky talismans and I loved the world. and the books so much. My dad had been. reading them to me before bed when I. would spend the weekends with him and on. long car journeys. We'd often drive back. and forwards to France and that's how. the time would be passed. And so I was. just like loved the world, loved her.

And for me it wasn't so much about. acting so much as it was that like I. just. the books meant. so much to me personally. >> Did you feel like it was destiny for you. or did it feel like did you always feel. like it was going to be this? >> I always. >> because obviously the books were already. you know. >> I always felt like Hermione was I knew I. was never auditioning for anything else.

like I knew it was her. I don't know. I. don't know how to explain it. Something. felt right about it. And. my yeah, my poor parents because if I. hadn't have got it, I think they knew. her crush. I ended up doing nine. auditions over a period of over a year. and a half, which for a 9-year-old is. >> a lot of work, >> a massive commitment, but I was I loved. her. >> I loved it. I really did. What do you.

wish now that you would have known. before you became Hermione? >> I did a pretty good job and I'm. actually I give my mother specifically. credit for this. She was like a warrior. for my normaly and for me having an. ordinary life and going to school and. no one wanted that. I mean, it would.

have been considerably easier if I had. not continued going to school. Um, but. she, wow, like I will forever be in her debt. She somehow knew that me feeling part of. the ordinary world and feeling I had a. place in it and that I belonged outside. of those films was going to be crucial. >> Wow, that's really incredible. It was. because she basically didn't have anyone.

on her team. She was kind of on her own. on that one. And she fought tooth and. nail. She was like on the phone for. hours saying she has to sit her exams. She has to go back. Like she needs to be. here. She she needs to have some parts. of a normal childhood. And. yeah, forever in her debt. >> That's so special to have had that. And. have those Yeah. to have a parent who. who can foresee like and you can't see.

anything for yourself. You're. >> Yeah. No. And to be honest, I didn't. really I didn't really get it if I'm. going to be I was like okay like I guess. it's important like you know I didn't. really get it. So I think. >> yeah she was amazing. >> Yeah. When when did because from what I. was reading from what you shared with me. I was when did Emma you Emma Watson and. Hermione and the characters that then. followed start to get blurred and.

intertwined because. >> that expectation that comes with. I I remember this and I and I share it. because to to give it to context to. people I was walking down the road with. one of my friends who's an actor who. gets recognized a hundred times for. every one time might get recognized. So, just put in contact. And so, if we're. walking down like this person get. stopped 100 times for pictures and then. I'll get stopped once. >> And. it was really beautiful cuz we we'd. spent a day together and that person had.

been stopped 100 times and maybe I've. been stopped a couple of times. >> And then they said something to me. They. said, "Jay, Jay, you're really lucky." And I said, "What do you mean?" And and I thought. they were going to say, "Because I'm I'm. anonymous to some degree." But they. didn't. He he said to me, he goes, "Jay, you're really lucky because he goes, "When people. stop me, they stop me for who I play to. be. >> And when they stop you, they stop you. for who you are." And it was really. encouraging words from someone that I. respect a lot. >> And I was like, "Wow." Like, I never. thought about it like that. I just I.

just it hadn't hit me how different it. was. >> And because I think you just see. >> fame or success or whatever is this one. big bubble of of stuff, especially when. you're not that close to it, you don't. know too much about it. And it was that. conversation that made me even be even. more personal with everyone that I ever. spoke to because they'd always have a. personal story or and and that's not not. to say that isn't true for music and for. acting and of course there is. I don't. want to take away from it. >> No. No. >> Um and I'm not saying that as a.

egotistical statement. I'm saying it as. like how hard it is for an individual to. go through that. >> Yes. >> And to be disassociated from themselves. >> Yes. Uh because that role could be a. part of you. It could be an expression. of you. It was a part of your life at a. certain period of time, but of course it. isn't you. >> Yes. >> Um but does that make any sense? >> I remember when I gave my UN speech. about he for she and about feminism and. women's rights and people started.

stopping me because of things that I had. come from me and that I had said. It. felt like a very significant transition. for me because I for the first time I. felt like I could look someone in the. eye and receive and accept something. that they were saying because I I felt. like it actually had something to do. with me and I wasn't just kind of a like. a custodian of something sacred which I. did take very seriously and I still do.

but it had been a direct transmission. from me and I think that's why writing. has become so important to me is because. it's a way that I. say things directly and that feels. really meaningful. Yeah, I love I love. the word you just used there of the. difference between being a custodian. and you know direct transmission you. said and and that's such an interesting. way to think about it and I think each. and every one of us don't want to be. known as a lawyer or an accountant or a.

doctor or a like that yes that's a part. of us and it's a role we play in society. and it of course brings significance and. value and worth and all of these. wonderful things but I think everyone. wants to be something beyond that And no. one wants to be that in their home. And. no one wants to be that with their. friends. And. >> no one no one want and and me included, by the way. It's like I I try and me and. my f one of my friends who's a who's a. well-known stand-up comic, we always. joke about how. >> he hates to be asked to tell jokes on.

command and and I try with my friends to. not say smart. I try not to say. thoughtful revelatory things because of. my friends. I just want to be like I I. don't want to have to coach someone's. marriage or solve their thing. I I don't. want to do that. Like I I just want to. be and and so even for someone who love. who is doing direct transmission a lot. more of the time even then there's a. feeling of well I don't want to say. anything profound in this conversation. >> I need to put this down. >> Yeah. I need to put the one down. Right.

>> Yes. Yeah. I think a big piece of me. like understanding again like why I. needed to take a minute is that like. even being the person. who was promoting the work became a kind. of role like Emma Watson became this. like avatar this this person that I. identified with but also kind of didn't. she'd become reproduced so many times. over and and kind of had become so.

loaded by all of this different stuff. that I she almost felt too heavy to. carry. Like I kind of was like. I don't even know if I can if I can be. that anymore. Like I like you know. I went on a date like 2 years ago and. like it was the best confession ever. But I was like messaging this person. And they were like, "Emma," and he was. like, "Can I just say something? Like, Emma Watson makes me anxious." And I was. like, "Emma Watson makes me anxious, too. That's so good." Are on the same. page. Like, I get it. Like,

>> I I can't even be her. I I don't know. how to be her. Live up to to what I look. like on the cover of a magazine. I don't. look like that. Like, I I can't I don't. know. I don't even know how to touch. what that person's become. That was kind. of a funny realization at some point. where I was like, I really need to step. off this thing cuz I just once you've I. don't know there's such a glamorization.

that comes hand inhand with being a. public famous person, especially if. you're a woman, like I feel I feel so. envious of my male co-stars who can just. put on a t-shirt and show up without. like this like whole rigma roll of kind. of becoming being acceptable enough to. be on camera and. like kudos to Pamela Anderson recently. just like doing the thing because it's. like the amount of courage it will have. taken to do that like I cannot even.

begin to express to you it's wild the. the expectations. are. insane it's impossible. so. >> short on vacation. >> private space yeah just the the the the. the beauty expectations are so difficult. to reach and the bar gets raised all the. time. So, it's like you're on this. constantly like I don't know, it's like. a some sort of like like Survivors.

Island game show beauty nightmare where. you know, I don't know. It's it's it's. nuts. So I Yeah, I think part of also. not feeling like Emma Watson is just. like the whole like glam squad culture. of of it all is. it's intense. It's yeah it's so fascinating because. there's almost like this this learning. of becoming.

>> you know becoming Emma Watson becoming. you know being all the roles you play. and then it almost feels like what. you're saying is there was a moment you. wanted to step off and unlearn what that. meant. >> Totally. >> But that seems really hard. >> Yes. >> Because. >> Yes. Learning it was hard enough and. then to unlearn it when it's linked to. >> your work, your finances, your worth, your friendship, community, connection, all of the where you live.

>> How do you even begin to unlearn being. Emma Watson? >> It's a knotted ball you have to sort of. unravel very carefully and. >> carefully. That's it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think. >> it's not like a wrecking ball. like. you're not just. >> I mean some things had to be done like. the wrecking ball honestly and then some. parts of it were like a much slower more. gentle teasing out but I mean I don't. know if you find this but I imagine that. a lot of your friendships are made. through the podcast and made through.

your work and there's kind of this like. non-separation between your home and. your family and your relationship and. the podcast your but tied tied into that. there's also like the very real some. people will be wanting you to reference. their new book or like promote something. for them or whatever and like navigating. that so many of these threads are. entwined. Does it ever start to feel. like you're like, "Wow, this is a lot.". People ask me all the time, "Do you ever.

wonder why people. want to hang out with you or be your. friend or whatever?" And. does that ever get complicated for you? >> I think because my direct transmission. is so clear, >> that if anyone in the industry wants to. connect, >> Yeah. there's usually quite a distinct. journey that they're on. >> that mine can support or help with as a. friend or in in a more formal capacity.

and. >> that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for. because. >> people are not inviting me out to crazy. parties. >> and I'm happy. Yeah, they're not. Yeah. They don't think I'm fun enough. Yeah. I. just I just saw I just saw a clip of the. other day of Austin Butler saying he's. he's he does he's never been invited to. a bachelor party before and I was like I. couldn't believe it. But but that that. kind of feel like I don't get invited to. crazy parties and and I'm grateful for. that. I don't that's not really a part. of my life, right?

>> Unless it's a spiritual party and then. then I'm all game and uh uh but but. there isn't that. And so sometimes I. think it's a good my direct transmission. is a good protective mechanism because I. don't really get asked to come to things. but then at the same time it takes me to. get to know someone deeply. Like I just. traveled with a friend uh to Greece and. we played and I don't think they were. anticipating this but we played three. nights of poker from midnight to 7:00. a.m. and it was amazing and I loved it. and I had the best time and I don't. think they expected me to do that. They.

expect me to get to bed early but I was. on vacation and I was like game. Yeah, exactly. and I won. So I was like, you. know, I'll take it. And I'm very. competitive in that way and I enjoy it. And so I think what it is for me is I I. think there's a big thing for me has. been from. I grew up as part of a big community. >> Mhm. >> Uh in London. >> Yeah. >> And a big spiritual community that I. became a part of when I was young. And I. think that what I found is it's very. difficult to discern for people.

externally and even for people in that. community as to how close they were to. me. >> Right. >> And so there are some people that assume. that because we sat in a class together. and there were 200 people in the class. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But now that their opinion on me or that. their relationship with me is close. >> when in actuality I've never had a. one-to-one conversation with that. person. >> And so now their opinion matters to the. outside world. It matters to the media. it matters to whatever, but I actually. don't know that person and they don't. really know me,

>> right? >> It's just so that we went to the same. congregation in the same year which has. lots thousands of people in it. And so I. struggle with that and then I also. struggle with. >> people coming up to me and saying, "Oh, Jay, I've known you for 20 years and you. know, like from back in the day at the. temple and but I'm like we didn't like. we didn't ever have an like a. conversation." And I still have all my. best friends from that community that. are still my closest friends. >> and they also feel the same way because. they see it. And so I think I find that. very difficult.

>> Yeah, that's true. >> Is is hard to navigate because it's not. that I don't have positive feelings. towards people or the community or. anything. I do. But I struggle with. >> people feeling they know me when they. never did, >> right? >> But they've almost created a story. within their mind that they really knew. me well. And because it was a big. community, this isn't a group of school. friends or something which I'm still. really close with. It's more this. expanded community which you were just. visible in, right? >> Not even audible or. >> or if that makes any sense.

>> No, that makes perfect sense. I think. >> yeah, being part of a larger community. would be tricky to navigate with Yeah. with the kind of I guess like being a. famous person in essence is like lots of. people can project lots of things onto. you and like if they had some level of. contact with you it makes those kinds of. projections a lot easier and then you're. like oh wow we're in a completely. different like your experience of this. is so different from mine. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah, and I mean. yours is like a million x that and you.

know I can't imagine. >> I can't I can't imagine I can't imagine. how hard dating is. >> like you talked about in some of the. journal reflections that you sent me. like this idea of just like. >> dating is hard as a 20-year-old. 30-year-old woman anyway. >> Yeah. >> And then to add your life to it. >> Yeah. >> Talk to me. You've referenced it a. couple of times in conversations you've. had. Like. >> what does it feel like when you're. having a normal conversation and someone. goes, "Wait a minute, you're.

>> Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know, list goes on." Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, it does it does feel like. my avatar enters the room unexpectedly. all of a sudden and then I'm like. navigating a completely different. conversation if someone hasn't figured. out that it's me yet. And that can feel. really dehumanizing and sometimes quite. kind of seeing someone's like behavior. like completely switch and turn and.

change can be kind of a jarring. experience. I think what's nice is at the very least. like dating for everyone is a is a. basically a complete disaster and. free-for-all. So, like I feel like I'm. in good company in that sense. But I. think it's funny occasionally people. will apologize to me for the fact. they've not seen my films and I will be. like please don't apologize. That is.

bliss to me like music to my ears that. like you're not going to constantly be. navigating and me also navigating with. you. This projection of me or this Emma. Watson avatar person will not be this. ghost in the room. So, um, that's. happened a few times where people have. been like, "I'm really sorry." And I'm. like, "Please apologize. I'm so. relieved. I'm so incredibly relieved.". >> And then you realize they have the box. that later on. >> Yeah. No. I'm like, "God, I hope not.". But I mean, I guess like I want people.

to appreciate my work, but I think. knowing you don't have to navigate that. extra like degree of weirdness is. uh helpful, a relief. How do you help. people get to know the real you at this. stage in your life? >> You know, I wrote this play that I. actually sent to you to read, but I. actually read parts of it to people um. because I find that trying to explain. sometimes how weird it is to be me.

Like I almost need AIDS. like it's not. it's so difficult to convey like how. weird it is and how surreal sometimes. that I sometimes I'll just be like can I. just like weed you this thing I wrote. because I think it's going to shortcut. you somewhere and so that's actually. been incredibly helpful and I'm I'm so. glad I I went and did this this creative. writing masters and I've spent more time. writing about my experiences because.

sometimes I can't even articulate it to. myself like how how are you supposed to. explain something to someone else you. can't really even understand for. yourself? So, I think writing, creative. writing, making art has been the best. therapy I've ever done because it's. helped me get clarity and also just be. able to laugh at myself and laugh at the. situation. I think one-on-one therapy. can be amazing, but like there is a kind.

of intensity and a seriousness to that. that maybe when you're writing something. down and when I wrote the play, I wrote. it for my friends and family and I was. able to kind of be more bring more of. myself to the picture in a way which is. someone who's like this is just nuts. like I just can't like I can't sometimes. I just genuinely cannot believe that my. life is my life and um. I need a place I can put that.

>> Yeah, I I loved So just for everyone. who's you know hearing about the. referencing of this play, Emma wrote a. play. >> which helped her closest friends and. family understand her experience of life. basically. >> Yeah. >> Right. Is that a bad description as a. >> No, no, it's not a bad description. But. like specifically, I wrote the play. about me transitioning from basically. being a full-time actress, >> an activist to trying to move home and.

like be a normal student and attend a. normal university as. a super famous person. And I I basically. kept a journal of what those experiences. were like and chronicled them for my. friends and family for about a year and. then performed it as a onewoman show at. the end of the first year and handed. that in as my as my first year piece of. work and Yeah. Yeah. >> Did it again. E. >> it got a distinction.

>> Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love. it. It actually did. Not that that was. the point, but it kind of wasn't the. point, but I think the coolest thing was. was like I read it for my roommate, for. example, who's belonging with me for 7. years, and he was like, "Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop." He's like, "Is. this actually how you feel? Like, do you. actually feel this?" And I was like, "Yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I. didn't." And he was like, "I had no idea. that this was how you felt." And this is. someone I live with. And so for me who I. perceive myself to be this like massive.

open book and actually I realized I was. like wow I think I'm doing a good job of. bringing the people that I love along. with me on what this feels like and. actually I'm not saying nearly enough or. explaining it in a way where it makes. sense. And so even my parents were just. like couldn't believe it really. Yeah. >> I'm sure they were brought to tears by. parts of it. I mean, I was I was so. moved by it and I really hope you do one. day make it a uh a production in some.

capacity because it. >> it was so moving and so powerful and it. was Emma honestly it was what every. public figure. >> has ever tried to explain to me about. their experience yet put so succinctly. powerfully and meaningfully that anyone. could relate to it and I think anyone. meaning anyone who's ever felt. misunderstood stood to loved for what. they have and not who they are. Seen for. parts of themselves and not all of.

themselves. And I I really believe it. would be such a service to everyone to. share it one day in however way you. decide to because honestly I was. gripped. I was completely captivated. I. couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm. going to read it again and again and. again. It's not something that I think. you read once. Not only are you a. brilliant writer, but it is so true and. honest. And for everyone who's listening. and watching, I think the lesson from it. for me is that your therapy.

could turn into something creative that. when you shared that with me when we. were speaking on the phone, I was so in. awe of that that therapy in onetoone. setting or in whatever way of healing. you believe in, >> if it turns into something you have to. put together to communicate to others, that's the revelation. Like the. revelation is in that process, not in. the listening, telling, share, uh, speaking, that that's great and that's a. part of it. But if you can go one step.

ahead. >> truly, I I feel this like urgency and. like desperation to communicate this. specific piece, which is like make art. about your experiences. Like the. neurosis of being a writer, anyone. making anything is like, I don't have. anything valuable to say. It's all been. said before. This is so self-indulgent. This is so narcissistic. Who even wants. to hear this? This is bad. I thought all. of those thoughts probably most days as.

I wrote this. But trust me, like. whatever you think people know about you. or they know about your life or how you. feel about it, they don't. And they need. you to write poems, write songs, make. pictures, write plays. And you don't. need to be someone with the title of an. artist to be able to do that. You really. don't. And in fact, I have to write on. my mirror. I have it written on my door, I am an artist because I don't think.

anyone feels like they deserve that. title. I've been making films and. writing and making art since I was 9. years old. And I don't feel like I. deserve that title. And I have to work. at it all the time to feel like I have. anything that's worthwhile saying. I. really understand the struggle. I really. really do. But there is something about. doing it and like having a physical. thing because I think so many of these. thoughts and feelings live in our heads. and it's not a great place for them to.

live. They need to come out somewhere. and once you can put them somewhere then. you're free. being understood or feeling. like you're understood by the people. around you has got to be the best. feeling in the world. And I think it's. what we're looking for when we. do so many things, but often that's not. the way to find it. And. >> I just God Yeah. If I honestly I want to.

go to every person in the street and be. like you need to write a one person show. about your life and then perform it for. your friends and family or like you need. to like you know paint the thing, write. the song, like just do it because it's. kind of one of the best most meaningful. things I've I've done is trying to make. sense of. >> sense of it all. Yeah. >> And I love that you did it for your. family. Like that's the part that proves. to me when you say the message of make. your art and. >> you know you don't need to be a. full-time actor or director or movie.

filmmaker. It's like you actually lived. that part and that's what I love about. it the most is that you didn't make it. for a stage or a movie or a documentary. or whatever. >> And honestly first I wrote it for. myself. I didn't think I honestly I. didn't think I had the guts to read this. aloud to anyone. I thought it was just. for me and maybe like two other people. and performing it for my like I didn't. even invite my family until like two. days before because I just didn't think. I had the courage. Make art for people. you love. Like make beautiful things for.

people that you love. Just for people. that you love. Like that's one I I I. guess like I had the extraordinary. experience of making things for like the. world basically from such a young age. And I I never made anything that I. didn't feel like needed to be shared. publicly. And I remember when I made. Little Women, I mean, that's such an. amazing thing about Louise May Alcott is. that really she wrote those stories for. her sisters. And so many people's. journeys and paths start because yeah, out of love, they wrote them for just.

one person. There was a certain point I. remember in my life where I was like, "Right, I'm done with university now and. now I'm going to just like focus full. what I should be doing is just focusing. full-time on being an actress." and you. know doing all of that and I had. completely missed actually that Emma the. academic, Emma the student, Emma the. person that needs to needs to constantly. be learning things facilitated my. ability to be a famous person and in. Hollywood and that without her I.

actually couldn't do it. I needed I need. to have both and that when one gets. stripped away and like even as I'm and I. explore this in the play as well like. even as I have returned to some form of. normaly ordinary life whatever that. looks like to me now like I also can't. kill her off completely you know my. public person there's parts of me that. like still does need those outlets and. to do those things too and I'm figuring.

out what those are but I think that's. what's so complicated about being human. is is is it's yes and not either or. It's we need we need to be all of. ourselves so that we can do the. extraordinary things that we we want to. do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts. of ourselves behind like kind of finding. a way to keep threading the tapestry of. all of it. >> Yeah, I think that's I I mean you you've. said it so well and I really feel that. that's what it's been for me.

I feel like as humans, we're very good. at being like, "Okay, this chapter of my. life is over.". >> And we do it because labeling helps, but. it's like you went from being a toddler. Yes. >> or an infant and then you became, you. know, a teen and then a young adult and. then an adult and then So, we have all. these labels and it almost feels like we. live our life that way of like, okay, I. was a student at university. If I went. to university and now I am a I have a. job and I'm an employee or an. entrepreneur, whatever it is. And labels. are useful. So I'm not going to say they. aren't. But what ends up happening is.

you start labeling phases of your life, which means now there isn't a yes and. it's an either or. So it's like I was an. actress, now I'm going to be an. academic. And it's like, well, no, I'm. an academic and an actress and a. whatever else. Yeah. >> You know, and and I think that's what. it's been for me. It's like I know that. the people that know me best will say, "Jay, I love you because we can talk. about spirituality. We can talk about. business and we can talk about. communication, media, art, and I love.

you because we can do all those three. things in one day. Yes. >> And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen. Whereas if someone only said one of. those things, I'd feel so limited. And. what I've realized is. >> I'm now at a place where I've given. myself permission to be all of myself, >> even if others don't give me permission. to be all of those things. >> Yes. >> Because Yeah. And how amazing to get to. that point where I realized for a long. time I was pushing for I need everyone. to understand me and I need them to. understand these decisions and I need.

them to understand that I'm all of these. things. And I'm like but do you really. Emma? Do you actually really need them. to get it or is it enough that you get. it? You see it and understand it and. you're making it possible and giving. yourself permission to do that. And I. think once I kind of let go of like, okay, it it matters way more that I. accept myself. >> then that I spend so much energy and. time trying to force other people to see. these things about me. And then. paradoxically, of course, once you let. go,

>> people start getting. which is which is funny. >> Emma, how do you how do you see love. today? >> God, what a great question. H. Um, how do I see love today? Oh, okay. I. think I have an answer for this. How. exciting. I was right there for I was. like to say, God, I hope I do. Am I that. deep? Yeah. Okay. So, um I think that.

h we don't talk about love nearly enough. or I think we need to talk about it so. much more because. I had such a not a misunderstanding but. I think I had a very limited. understanding of it for a long time. which was that we see in Disney movies. and in Hollywood movies this idea that. like falling in love once it's sort of. happened to you it's like irreversible. you know like step into this portal that. you can't get out of anymore because. you've fallen in love. And actually, I I.

think falling in love might be quite. easy to do in some ways. That's sort of. the easy bit. The hard part is finding. someone who actually wants to be in a. dance with you and be in some form of. partnership with you. And things like, can you argue? Well, can you be is the. conflict that you have generative? And. can you make someone else feel safe? Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean.

like out of physical danger. I mean. like, can you either respond to a text. message quickly enough that doesn't send. the other person into like a complete. freef fall and or not pelt them with so. many that they feel completely. overwhelmed and flooded. And like that. kind of like compatibility and that kind. of willingness to be in this like is. this okay for you? Does this feel good. to you? This is how it feels for me. And. like there's like that constant back and. forth and that constant check-in is like.

a a game of um check-in in a way of like. can you find someone who's willing to be. as vulnerable as it necessarily requires. I think to like figure out those micro. adjustments until you're sort of in some. kind of dance with someone else. And. that is a very different understanding. that I have come to of what love is than. I had. I mean like loving someone is so. much more complex than the projections.

that we put on someone or even like just. lusting or having some small feeling for. someone else. But I just think that we. have such a black and white idea about. what love is supposed to be. And I wish. I'd understood more before I went into. battle. I do. I really, really do. >> What do you think love is, Jay? >> Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. You're flipping.

this back, Emma. This is about you. It's. not about. >> This is a conversation. >> I know. I just. >> Well, does any of what I've said. resonate? >> It does. It does. It resonates a lot. >> I'm on the right track, Jay. I need you. to tell me. >> I think it resonates a lot. I I grew up. in a I grew up with a very film naive. Disney version of what love was. Like I. love that version of love. >> I love the idea that. >> love was this really romantic, really. sweet. >> writing letters every day kind of love.

Like that that's the love I dreamed of. and love I thought of as a kid at least. >> Yeah. And then, you know, I think I. realized that you do all of that with. the first person you're with in your. teens and and you kind of think it's the. real thing, but then they're in a mood. every night for no reason and you're. just people pleasing and trying to. figure out what's going on and you think. it's all about making that person happy. and so you mold and you bend and you, >> you know, sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very quickly that.

>> that wasn't love. And I think. >> what's really interesting about love now. is that. >> marrying my wife who I've been with now. for 12 years and married for nine. >> Wow. >> And so it's the longest time I've ever. spent with anyone and also. >> the only person I've been with after I. left the monastery. And so there's been. a certain chapter of my life that I've. been with her for. >> And I really feel she's taught me more. about love for two reasons. The first is. she doesn't subscribe to any of the.

movie Disney versions of Love. >> Wow. At all. >> Oh my god. What education did she have? Where can I get it? >> Yeah. Literally. And and the other part. is that I think she's the only person. I've ever loved enough to be taught by. >> Oh my god. >> Which is like a really interesting part. of love that I think's missed. M. >> and I feel like love is the humility to. feel. It's humility on both parts. because the other person's not actively.

teaching. and you're actively receiving. >> Yes. >> So it's this really strange dance. between it's almost like if you're. dancing. >> There has to be a humility on both sides. because. >> it's not that one person leads and the. other person follows. It's the other. person's kind of like should we do this? Should we try this? there's a anxiety. and a humility in requesting that and. the other person gets to choose to go. with it or not go and say no we're going. to go in this direction and that's. >> a great dance to watch and I feel like. with my wife.

>> she's never directly taught me. >> but she's challenged me in ways that. >> if other people would have I might have. left. >> Oh my god, how beautiful. >> And so why am I staying? And then you go. okay I'm staying because there's love. And so love is the ability to be taught. without teaching and. >> learning without. feeling like you're being led or misled. And that for me has been a really.

beautiful lesson. And if I just said. this to my wife out loud right now, she. would just laugh because she'd just find. it funny. And then and then she's Yeah. She she also taught me how to love me. for who I was and not what I had. Because I think. >> a lot of men go through this, at least. men that I'm friends with and that I've. spoken to, that. >> we want people to respect us for our. success. >> Yes. >> And rever us for our accomplishments. It's how men have been adored since the. beginning of time for going out and.

getting the food or going out there and. winning the battle or conquering a. nation. And that's what you were known. for. And so my wife's been with me since. before my career took off and I had any. success. And I think as I gained. success, I think my immaturity was to. want her to love me for that more. And. she never did. She just didn't do it. >> Wow. >> And it drove me crazy. And she didn't do. it in a rejecting way or in a. >> in a it just didn't make a difference to.

her. >> This isn't why I love you. And and it. took me a long time to wrap my head. around that and realize because you know. those are the times when you could start. liking other people who love you for. what you have achieved and what you have. built and all the rest of it. And I. think I just have so much respect for. her that. >> she never gave in on that. >> Yeah. She never gave in and and she. helped me love myself for who I am. And. I think that's the point that I think I. would have if I had met someone else, I. would have valued myself for very. different reasons. and knowing you're.

with someone who truly is with you. because of who you are and your. character and that's what they honor. >> And and I think that word honor and. respect probably the last thing I'd say. I think we always say like love is. respect and based on respect but. >> I wrote a list of things that I. >> I tried to be clear with myself about. what it is I was really looking for and. I really want and one is someone that I. can learn from. So it's really. interesting that you said learning.

without teaching, teaching without. learning and that kind of reciprocal. like I really want to be with someone. that I can learn some learn from and I. hope that yeah as you say has the. humility to be willing to learn from me. But the other thing is I think it's why. I'm so obsessed with the musical musical. Hamilton and why so many people have. been. Like maybe this is it's so funny. that we're on on the purpose podcast, but like are you with someone who cuz. obviously what you have with someone is. is wonderful, right? Like what you two.

share together, but if you can be in. service of a vision that you both share. or at the very least are you willing to. honor and give dignity to the work of. the other person and whatever their. vision or mission is in this world. That. to me seems far more sustainable than. anything else. And so I guess my big. hope or wish would be that I met someone. who feels like what I want to do in the. world. Yes, that I'm important, but they. also feel that what I'm here to do is.

important to them, too. And in some way. intersects with what they're here to do. >> I couldn't agree more. It's exactly what. I was going to say. >> Is it? >> Yeah. that that I think the word respect. and relationship is thrown around a lot. but this is the deepest form of respect. where there's a famous quote that I. don't know who said it but there's a and. I would you know you could take the. genders out of it now but there's a. famous quote that says men marry women. hoping they'll never change. >> and women marry men hoping they can.

change them and to me wanting someone to. never change or wanting to be able to. change someone are both signs of. disrespect. because. I think the greatest respect you can. have is to respect what this person. values in this moment and how that. evolves and that's their purpose, their. offering, their values. >> And at no point are you trying to change. them. And I've I've talked about this. often where my wife and I I do this.

exercise with couples when I'm working. with them, but I've also done it in our. relationship. And I ask people to rank. their top three priorities in order. Wow. >> And people do it privately and then they. share them. >> Wow. >> And so generally one person will put. themselves first, their partner second, and then the kids third. And the other person will put the kids. first, the partner second, and. themselves third. And the person who put. themselves third is always mad at the. person who put themselves first because.

there's this friction of well wait a. minute how can you not put the kids. first. >> or how can you not put family first or. whatever it may be in your given. situation and the other person is like. well if I don't put myself first then. what can I give to you all and that that. kind of displays this dichotomy and this. belief we have around love means. complete sacrifice and love means. self-sabotage to some degree or love. means putting yourself aside and the. reality is actually no my goal is to. make sure that you live your purpose and. greatest vision of yourself.

>> and your purpose is to help me do that. When we both do that, >> everything's poetry. >> And my wife practiced that and she does. it naturally. And it's hard to do that. in a world that constantly reminds you. both that sometimes the other person. isn't where you are. >> Or, you know, the idea of why haven't. you had kids yet? Or when are you going. to be in the same country for longer. than a month? or whatever they may be. because it doesn't fit into the norm of.

what relationships look like. >> And I was thinking about that with you. as well, like. >> you know, I know you you talked about. how getting asked the question, when are. you getting married. >> or why aren't you married yet? >> Yes. >> And that's something every woman's. hearing. What's your reaction when you. hear that? >> I'm just so happy not to be divorced. yet. Like that sounds like a really. negative answer, but I just like I think. that we are we're being. pressured and forced into this.

thing that like I believe is a kind of. miracle. I might never be worthy of it. I hope it happens to me, but like I. don't feel entitled to it. like it will. either be part of my purpose here and my. destiny or it won't. And I think the way. we treat it as though well why haven't. you and this is something that has to.

happen in this certain. time span and at this certain age in. this kind of way is like the least. romantic thing I can possibly think of. Like truly, like if I had tried to get. married any point basically before about. a year ago, it would have been carnage. I just didn't know myself well enough. yet. I didn't have a clear enough idea. of what my purpose, my vision, like how.

I was going to be of service. I didn't. know where I really felt like I needed. to be. I think I have some of those. answers now. So when I meet someone, I. can say, "Hi, I'm Emma. This is what I. care about. This is where the people I. love the most live. This is where it's. meaningful for me to be in the world.". And then they can decide whether they. can see that there's a way that I can. serve what they're trying to do and they. can serve what I'm trying to do. But.

before that, like they would have just. got like a very mixed signal. I mean, there's some parts of me that have. stayed utterly consistent, >> but there are some parts that like I was. really still teasing out and figuring. out. And I think it's such a violence. and it's such a cruelty on people and. especially young people I think to make. and especially women to make them feel. like they have no worth or like they. haven't succeeded yet in life because.

they haven't forced to its culmination. something that I just don't think can or. should ever be. forced. It's something that like. honestly I feel like I've had to earn. I've had to work for to be in a place. where I feel like I can look someone in. the eye and be able to tell them who I. am and to have some some idea and it. will change and grow of of what I want. and what I'm here to do. That takes.

work. Like I have like. really sat with myself in a lot of. discomfort and asked myself a lot of. very difficult questions to be at that. point. It hasn't happened to me yet. >> I do think everyone's worthy of love, but I like I I and and I don't think. that's what you're saying either. Yeah, >> I think so. >> I guess maybe like partnership or. marriage I guess is what we're both. saying is like almost a different game. Like it's it's almost a different.

playing field actually. Like actually. co-joining and like properly sharing. your life with someone and being in. partnership with them. >> seems like it's its own thing. >> It is. It takes so much work and it. takes so much adjustment and adapting. more than compromising and. sacrificing. >> There's so much flexibility. There's so. much. >> allowing. It's it's so different at. different times. Like sometimes patience.

looks like being by that person's side. and saying nothing. >> And sometimes patience means being. halfway across the world. >> and not communicating. And sometimes. patience looks like uh talking and. listening. Like you know it's it's. patience doesn't look like one thing. over a a lifespan. And. >> there are parts of my wife that have. stayed exactly the same in 12 years. And. there are parts that have completely. changed. And I have a choice every time. that happens to learn to love the new.

>> or not. And that's a choice I have to. make and she has to make as well. And so. there's so much constant choosing and. constant evolving that it's very easy to. just. >> it's very easy to be like, "Yeah, I. chose them the day we got married." And. people always ask me, I'm like, I don't. think I even knew who my wife was the. day we got married. Like now when I. think about it, like I loved her, but. I had no idea. And and that's what it. should feel like. I don't think if I was.

here to say like, yeah, the wedding the. wedding day was one of the best days of. my life, but it's not the day I loved my. wife the most. >> Yeah. >> Because I didn't really even know what I. was getting myself into. >> That's amazing. I was thinking recently. about trust and telling the truth. >> and I realized the scary crazy thing. about it seems to me about intimacy is. that it seems to be conditional on your. ability to like keep telling the truth.

>> and perhaps even revealing deeper and. deeper and deeper truths. at the risk that that truth might mean. that that person might not continue to. choose you. Yes. >> So, even though you've been in this. relationship for 12 years, like every. day you have to choose to risk it all if. you want there to be continued intimacy. by continuing to tell your truth to this. other person. And that seems so. courageous to me. Like, in order for.

there to be genuine connection and. closeness, you have to be willing to. risk it all sometimes or like probably. almost constantly. And that it seems. like it takes so much courage because we. don't like change. We don't want things. to change. So you also want a. relationship that's alive and still. living and breathing and not some like. dead thing. >> Yeah. So well said. And and what you're. saying is like that feeling of when. you're not actually being truthful. consistently, that's when we feel people.

have had big changes in their life. Because if you had the consistent. truthfulness, the change felt more. smooth and gradual. >> Whereas when the change came like, you. know, a wrecking ball where I had this. feeling and I'm just telling you it, >> it's because I didn't tell you about all. the little the little incremental. changes and sometimes you don't know. it's even happening. So it's not your. fault or this is not something that you. can say has to be the case. But I think. that's why being more truthful, more. honest,

>> more regularly and consistently allows. for the change to feel more gradual. It's almost like going back to your. dance analogy, like if you're about to. throw someone up in the air and catch. them. >> Yes. >> There has to have been a touch or a. preparation. >> Yes. >> Before someone just grabs hold of you. and throws you in the air. And it's. like, >> well, I would have liked a warning. >> Yes. Uh and and that's why your analogy. is so good because it's. >> you would throw someone up in a dance at. some point if you were both talented and. gifted enough, but there would have been.

a preparation. There would have been a. nod, there would have been a look, a. feel, a touch or. >> you know to set that up. And. >> yes, >> like one of the hardest questions you. talked about asking answer asking. yourself difficult questions and I want. to ask you something about that. But one. thing I've said to my wife is if you. ever fall out of love with me, please. tell me because I don't want to live a. day without love. I'm really confident. about the fact that I'm worthy of love. and that I want to experience love in my. life. >> If you ever fall out of me, just tell me. it's okay. >> because I don't have the desire.

>> to stay somewhere for any other reason. And it sounds risky saying that and. extreme, but to me it's a greater risk. to have spent 10 extra years with. someone and then they tell me, "Yeah, I. haven't really loved you for the last 5, 10 years." And then I'm like, "Wait a. minute. I've lived without love for 10. years of my life and I don't want to be. in that place because I've seen people. go through that and and not be happy.". And so. >> it does come with a humility and a. >> openness to have very difficult. conversations.

>> Uh and not to force something that, oh, it's been going great for 12 years. It. has to. It should do. It must do. And. it's like, well, maybe no. Like, yes, if. it does, it's great. >> And it is right now, but. >> why shouldn't right now be a prediction. for how you feel in 15 years. >> with everything else that's going to. change? >> I think if I knew I really couldn't meet. the needs of someone and they couldn't. meet my needs, if I really couldn't make. them happy and they couldn't make me. happy, like forcing them to stay in that.

situation, surely that like makes love. impossible. like negates. So I I totally. get what you're saying and my mom said. this thing to me which was like you want. to be with someone because you want them. not because you need them. And I think. maybe another reason why. I didn't get married younger is because. I think maybe I would have married. someone not knowing who I was and I. would have needed them, maybe not wanted.

them. And I think now I have a life. that's whole and complete as it is. And. I would be making a choice from a place. of I just want you and I don't need you, but I just want you. And I don't. >> I don't think I was that woman five. years ago. >> Yeah. I love that. And and and there's. so much so much to be said for. attracting from a place of peace. >> because you know what peace feels like.

M. >> and so then anyone or anything that. comes into your life. >> and what feeling satisfied feels like. >> satisfied is probably even a better word. and that feeling of I know what it feels. like to be satisfied and so I now know. whether someone makes me more satisfied. or less. >> I know what my baseline is. If you don't. know what your baseline happy is then. how do you you've got no idea of knowing. what's going on at all. >> And that's not a feeling of being. complete or having it all figured out. >> It's like I know what satisfy is a great. word. It's like I know what it feels.

like to. >> be at peace with myself or satisfied. with myself. And. >> now everyone can show me. >> Yes. >> where that pendulum swings. >> Yes. >> Um, one thing you said which I which. really resonated with me is that you've. had to ask yourself so many hard. questions. >> to do the work. And I wanted to ask you. what what's one of the hardest questions. you've ever had to ask yourself if you. could recall. Well, the first one that. comes to mind and then maybe I'll dig. for a deep or a different one is like to. have to admit to myself or ask myself.

the question of like you right now have. the career and the life that like looks. like the dream, but are you really. happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? Are. you really happy? Like is this really. what you want? And to be at that point. and like realize and have to admit to. myself that I wasn't and I didn't was. one of the scariest things I've ever had. to do because you know I basically had.

to ask myself on a daily basis like I. felt like I was crazy and walking away. from something without knowing what. you're walking towards. >> was. not having the answers but leaving. something that was con that the world. considered to be such of such high. value, such a high value kind of moment. in my professional life and career. I. think that was a real sitting with that.

was a real moment of reckoning of like. can you tell yourself the truth? Can you. live with your truth? Can you accept the. fact that for most other people your. truth is pretty confusing and. unpalatable? That was definitely. a hard moment of sitting more recently. because I've been being my own partner. asking myself, are you really living.

your values, things that you preach? Are. you actually aligned? And actually looking at some spaces in. my life where I was like, no, not. at all. I'm actually not doing what I. talk about. And I need to like create. some sort of urgency or a deadline for. that so that I make sure that I'm a. person of integrity. I purport to be. someone that cares about the world and. about the planet and sustainability. And. you know, there are some things I was.

doing. Was it enough by my own. standards? Not by anyone else's. Just by. my own. Probably not. But what's nice is. is I actually have the time now to be. like, "Okay, what are you going to do. about it?" Like, "Get get on with it.". And like, >> but those those are Thank you for those. Those those are great questions. >> Really really great questions and. >> so hard for so many reasons. Especially. when you talked about like when you're. stepping away from and and stepping. toward Did you have people in the.

industry or like people that you could. talk to that felt the same way? Like did. you have co-stars or friends or. >> No. >> Wow. I no I don't know anyone else. I'll. never say that I I quit acting. I'll. always be an actor. I'm still open to. doing it again. It's but I certainly. made a decision to to take time to. figure out to not know and to you know I. had like this whole. disassembling the structure that's. needed to carry the loads. And it's like.

there's an agent and a publicist and a. manager and a a personal assistant and. there's all these people and lives who. are intertwined with mine and navigating. and caring for and negotiating that with. people as well was like was really. tricky and also I was just bloody. terrified. Like I think there's a kind. of infantilization. that can happen when you work as much as.

I did and a kind of loss of independence. that means that you're like, "Oh my god, can I even do my life if I don't have. this like army of people who are like. helping me do the most menial and basic. of things? Like can I actually like do. this stuff myself?" And and I don't even. say that in terms of like capability, but like just from the place of like. it's difficult for me to walk down the. street sometimes. So if I'm going to.

start to take on truly the. responsibility of most of my life. myself, like what's that going to be. like? Like can I really do that stuff? I. think fame makes you feel like you can't. do things for yourself in a way that can. really disempower you and and remove. your confidence and autonomy as a human. being. That's That's really disabling. >> And for everyone who's who's wondering, yeah, Emma called me up and I was like, "So, should I speak to your publicist?". She's like, "Nope, I am my publicist.".

Like I was like, "Do I need to check. with the manager?" "Nope, I am my. manager." And like that was literally. the conversation we had. She booked this. podcast herself. >> There was no booker. There was no. booking system. There was no There was. no reach out. >> No, >> it was literally Emma doing it herself, which is proof you are living your. values. >> Thank you. >> And and you are aligned with what you're. saying. I wanted people to know that. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. What's so. funny though now is like because I do. everything myself, there's like a 50%. chance you would have not thought it was. me or like sometimes when I reach out to.

people, >> I had plenty of moments I had to double. take. I was like, "Wait a minute." Like. >> verified verified amount of followers. who you follow. >> People think it's not me. And so like I. have a 50/50 rate of people actually. just like not responding to me because. they don't think I'd be reaching out. myself. That that's real. I I had to do. a second date. I think I rejected this. morning. Like, wait a minute. >> Was it definitely her? >> Is it definitely her or am I going to. turn up in some like, you know, catfish. situation?

>> No, it's wild. >> Yeah, it's Yeah, >> oddly sometimes it takes more work me. trying to do things myself than through. the system. >> Yeah, I know. You did a great job. But. that that Yeah, those those hard. questions that you asked yourself. I. mean, what was it. >> that gave you courage. >> to walk a path where you don't know the. next three steps when you have a entire. career lined up on the other side? >> You have an amazing career. You've every.

movie you've been in has been magical. and amazing. Like it's when you look at. your portfolio of. >> choices like they're all brilliant. performances. They're great films. They're. >> and you only would have more of that. So, it's also not like you're leaving a. career that's kind of had its you know. what I It's it's it's at a place where. no businessoriented person could imagine. why. >> And so what gives you courage when one. side is so clear and one side is not.

clear at all? >> Again, I'm going to tell the honest. version of this story. I'd love to tell. you. that it was like. this incredible courage and. determination I have inside of me. And. yes, there's there's part of that. Not. going to like completely erase my role. in all of this, but I think a big part. was that it was coming to a point with. my. health and nervous system where I was.

starting to hit a point of not no. return, but like it's interesting. I. eat well. I do yoga. I do medit. I do. all the things right, but I think I was. using those as a way of mitigating. how much stress I was under as opposed. to actually what those things are really. for. are compasses and points towards our. truth. And I. >> so was.

>> I was using them. as a way of like bolstering. myself and allowing myself to continue. down a path that actually was kind of. wrecking me. And I think it was just. like my immune system. couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven. or eight packets of an antibiotic every. year because my immune system was so low. that I would just constantly be getting. a I just constantly be getting sick and.

a sinus infection and whatever else. Like. >> I have no idea. >> My body just started being like no. I. went from being someone who I would say. I still handle stress and pressure well. and in the moment I could always do it, but the cost afterwards was starting to. get more and more serious to the point. where it was like I'd always turned down. or actually I remember I was in my early. 20ies when a publicist first offered me.

a beta blocker. I was nervous before I. could carpet and it's the only other. time I ever took anything and I was fine. for the two hours after I took it and. then I got back to the room and when my. feelings came back to me I was like over. wrought with grief and feeling of of. having blocked it. And so I' i'd always. and after that I I never allowed anyone. to give me anything again even though I.

was offered things multiple times and. doctors wanting to give me things for. jet lag and for sleep and for nerves and. oh everyone takes it this is you know. there's no shame in this or whatever but. I just I felt like in order to keep. going I was going to have to make a. decision of like are you okay with being. lowle level. unwell and medicated essentially and I. just knew that wasn't a choice for me.

So in a way I have my body to thank. because my body just I didn't want to. ignore my body anymore. And it didn't. matter how many silent retreats I went. on or how much yoga I did or like what. new thing I did to try and take care of. myself. It my body was done. And. that was then I think when I went away. and found a relationship with myself and.

my practice and and just having trust. and faith in a way that I never had. before. And I started listening more. carefully to like these little whispers. of like, oh, like maybe this should be. the thing you do or like even coming and. doing this of like I think you should go. and do this podcast. Just listening to. myself for clues basically and listening. to the universe, whatever that means. But I never had that before. I never had. I never knew how to listen for those.

things before. I truly went away and had. nothing for a while. So that was. probably the the best result of of all. of that. >> Yeah. And I and I think it still takes. so much courage because. >> it does even though you didn't see it. that way and you. >> may not have noticed it, it still takes. so much courage to listen to your body. >> because it is easy to keep medicating in. all the ways to to break it anyway. >> Yeah. and to to push it to the edges and.

the limits of its ability. and because you're so addicted or. intoxicated by the success or whatever. it may be. >> I guess the courageous part was just. knowing I didn't want to numb out. That. was the point at which it got too big of. a cost cuz I was like, okay, if I feel. like I need to be. I'm at the point where the price is too. high now. >> Yeah. Yeah, I loved what you said about. when they're meant to be compassed to. our truth and not like this band-aid.

pacification of and. >> I've been highly really effectively. using those band-aids. They will carry. you far. Like I had a lot of practice. >> I think that's how they're presented now. too. Like it's become this and and. that's why when you said that I think. you. >> it's almost like I'm trying to think of. a good metaphor but the one that's. coming to my mind. It's almost like. driving to the grocery store in a sports. car. And it's like a sports car is made. for this high-speed track. Like that's. what it's for. >> Y, >> but you're using it just to drive 25.

miles an hour. >> Yeah. >> To the grocery store. And it's like, no, it's it has so much more capability and. >> ability to take you somewhere. >> phenomenally, but you're using it for a. really simple basic task. >> Not going to lie, though. I remember. when I did my first vapassa. and sat long enough and I went to my. teacher and I was like. what have I done? >> Go on tell me about this. Go on. >> What have I done? >> What do you mean? In what way? >> I I because in a way it was almost like.

I realized once you start paying. attention to your truth, it's very. difficult to go back. And in some way it. felt like I was like, "Oh my god, I. don't know if I like this. >> I don't know if I like this. >> So good. >> I I I maybe I want to go back." And once. you step through it, you you kind of. can't go back. And I remember him. looking at me calmly and saying, >> "Could you even go back now even if you. wanted to?" And I was like, "I guess. not. I guess this is the path I've.

chosen to walk." And. to some degree, in the same way that. getting cast as Hermione and like making. my piece with the way that that changed. my life were my marching orders, I think. trusting that. >> is. that's that's all I can do at this. point. I'm just holding on for dear. life. >> Yeah. It's like the mafia. Once you're. in, you know too much. like. >> I'll I'll never forget that moment. I'll. never forget that moment. I was like,

"Oh no, this is undoable now, isn't it?". And he was like, "Kind of." Yeah. I was. like, "Oh no, it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable being honest with. myself." And then I have to be honest. with other people as well. This is a. nightmare. Why did I do this? Why am I. here? Oh god, what's. >> I'm just imagining you on the retreat. like coming out of it and just having. that reaction. >> Yeah, >> it's so funny. So good. That that needs.

to get added to the play. That moment. that moment needs to be added to the. play. >> Actually, yeah, I wrote something I. wrote something about my doing the doing. the 10day of pastor for the first. >> for the first time cuz my god that is. such a it's such a roller coaster. Yeah. It's such a roller coaster. >> Anything you want to share about? >> Sure. Yeah. I don't want to bore you to. death, but I mean I think what was funny. was like I I have this picture that I. drew of day. >> day two. >> and it's like green and pink and there's. butterflies on it and it literally says.

I think it says this is so embarrassing. It says I am beautiful. So embarrassing. >> I just felt like in I was like oh my god. this is blows. I was like riding this. wave of like meditation ecstasy. basically. Whatever dopamine hit I was. getting from that was wild. I just felt. unbelievable. And then I surfed that wave straight. into some kind of like brick wall of oh. my god like all the things in life that.

you think are outside of you actually. live inside you. And so even when you're. like in this beautiful place on this. gorgeous meditation retreat with all of. these like wonderful enlightened people, everything starts to drive you crazy. And even the like salt shaker and the. pepper pot in front of you, you start to. take on the shapes of your real life and. you realize that your mind just starts. creating all this drama for you even. though there's nothing going on. literally. And it was just it was such a.

wild experience to kind of sit there and. be like, "Oh my god. I'm the one. creating all of my own drama. This is a. nightmare. It's me. It's me. I'm the. problem." And um I was like, "I can't. stay here. I can't do this. This is way. too hard. Living with myself and my own. thoughts is going to dry. This is. unbearable. I I can't do this." That was. a really big learning and one I have to. remember all the time is like I as a.

perfectionist which again is a is a kind. of violence on yourself. I would try to. like shame and blame myself into and. like kind of shake myself up and and. give myself these kinds of like talkings. to to make myself do stuff. And. sometimes to be honest with you, they. work in the short term and in the long. term they fail you miserably. Like they. just do not work. I the only way that I. have learned to change my patterns.

to show up for myself better to change. in the ways I want to change and grow is. to be loving towards myself. So getting to be in the room with that. person at that moment was a massive. gift. >> It's amazing. I love it how someone that. you can attend a class with can become. such a big teacher for you when you. allow it to be and. >> yeah, >> you know, someone who wasn't the leader. or the guide of the group can can have. such an impact on you. Did you want to. speaking about love, did you want to.

share the. >> is it the practice that you went through. recently with is that what you ring? >> Yeah, the ring. >> Yeah. Oh my god, that's sweet of you to. remember. I mentioned that. >> Um yeah, I um I guess having gone. through this odyssey which has been the. last I guess 7 years I was like okay I. kind of feel like I've got to a place. and this will continue forever where I. want to celebrate where I ended up after.

I kind of. left land it felt like and yeah I I did. a ritual with or like I guess just a day. of celebrating with my friends and. chosen family and they each bought me. this ring which has 22 petals on it and. each of them bought one and I've just. never owned anything so valuable in my. life because I I to me it represents the.

life that I've built which was the one. that I really wanted which was one that. was made up of community and my roots. and. faith and trust. And in some funny way, it signals to me that even though I have. no outward. signs of my success, save for this crazy. onewoman play I've written, I don't even. have my degree yet. And it signals to me.

that for me, I achieved what I wanted to. achieve for myself. Wow. >> So, that's pretty cool. And I love that. every time I look down at my finger, I. can like see all of the faces of the. people who bought it for me. >> You're amazing at holding space. You're. so kind. The amount of people who've. probably sat in this chair and been as. emotional as I have. And you don't turn. away. It's amazing. >> It's easy with you.

>> That's very kind. Thank you. It's really. easy because it's really heartfelt and. you've shared so much of me before today. and today that I felt like you shared. you created that space for me to sit. with you before today and today. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> What makes a real friend? So you said. you had 22 22. >> 22 Yeah. >> 22 friends. What what what defines a. good friend for you? >> Oh my god. For me, I've never killed.

anyone in my life and I have no. intention of killing anyone. But like is. the person who you can call when you're. like that would help you carry the dead. body across the floor. You know what I. mean? You're like the person you call me. like I think I've done this thing. and I need you to like either tell me. I'm crazy or tell me I'm not crazy or. tell me the truth or help me fix it or I. don't know that I think it's like the. people that God. the people that you. just like do not have to have hes and. graces with and who you can just be like.

this just happened and it's such a. disaster and yeah and I I don't know. people I think also who. can handle your truths your real truths. and vulnerabilities. like they're sacred and with care. I. think that's been very important for me. because I think maybe part of my bravado. is I'll I'll make a joke of or I'll be.

brave about things I don't feel very. brave about and it takes someone who. knows me quite well to go she's making a. joke about this. She's like actually. >> dying inside and I kind of know that and. like I'm going to hold her through it. >> Yeah. I think real friends are the ones. when you're in a really tight corner and. not just that we'll like show up. begrudgingly but be like what are we. dealing with today and like maybe we'll. enjoy that or see that as like an honor.

and a and a privilege actually. I think. that's been a big learning for me. And. it's an honor and a gift when someone. asks you for help or when they need you. And I think I used to feel really. embarrassed about needing anything from. anyone or asking for help. I used to see. it as like a great shame, like a. something I was really embarrassed to. do. And now I see it as like I guess. like knowing how I feel when someone. asks me for help that I really love. and.

how amazing it feels to be able to be. there for someone else. I try to remind. myself that when I'm feeling like I. couldn't possibly burden someone else. with something. I remind myself and I do. remember how good it felt that someone. like asked you to show up for them and. that you got to be there for them at. their worst or darkest. And so I think coming to understand. like I think I also confused.

codependency or like I don't know I I. didn't we are so interdependent as a. species and like we we there's no shame. in in. >> needing and wanting. >> other people. I didn't I didn't. understand. I I didn't understand. And I. do Yeah. >> I love the answer. I love how it started. as if I ever kill someone. >> Wish I would. I swear. And I haven't. I. won't. >> So good. It's so good. It's so funny.

It's like a I I did not expect you to. say that. It was so good. So surprising. I love it. But no, it's so it's so true. Like when I when I left the monastery. and even though I was with my wife and. we go into relationship and we're. dating, I used to always feel like I. didn't I always I had this false mindset. because of. >> my immaturity and understand what being. a monk was. >> Yeah. >> In that it was in this independent way, >> right, >> of not needing or wanting anyone and. that we were in a relationship and it. was great, but like that wasn't and I.

held that immaturity and I probably. verbalized it to her too many times for. too long in the beginning of our. relationship. I have no idea why she. stayed. But it's uh it took recently. It. was we this was so recent. This was like. maybe a couple of months ago. Well, I. realized that I shouldn't have said that. years ago, but then a couple of months. ago, my wife said to me, she goes, "You're my calm. Like, you calm my. nervous system.". >> And I was like, "You're my joy. Like, you bring joy to every part of my life.". And it was like that exchange was so. needed and so powerful.

>> after having for so long feeling like, "Oh, I have everything I need anyway.". And I do. I genuinely believe that. But. >> it's what you said is that we're inter. interdependent for a reason. >> Yes. We our wife make adds so much. It's. like saying I don't need salt added on. to this meal. And like the meal is. great. And it's like I don't need any. more salt. And it's like well no if you. add a little bit of salt it would make. it a bit better. Way better. >> Way better. And it's like and and we. kind of live in that life of like I. don't want to add anything to this. And. it's it's almost a defense mechanism.

>> because we're so scared that there may. not be someone to add. >> Oh my god. I think. >> and I've lived there. So I that yeah. that resonated very strongly. >> I think that was the one of the other. gifts actually of getting to a point. where cuz I used to be this like I'm so. tough and independent and I can do. anything person and being at the point. where I was like h I actually think. I'm like not okay. and my body forcing. me to ask other people for help was the.

biggest gift of my life because it. brought me so much closer to other. people. And I learned that not only is. it not a burden, it's genuinely. yeah, a privilege and a gift sometimes. to to have someone ask you that ask you. that question or like be honest about. the ways that they need you. And it's. crazy how long it takes to learn these. things. >> Yeah, absolutely. You you've done so.

much inner work and self work. I'm I'm. wondering what's what's the work you've. been avoiding? What's the work you've. been putting off? >> Wow. If there is any. >> I think it's probably something around. now. tying it all together. M. >> I think in some ways me being here today. is me trying to do the piece I've been. avoiding maybe which is like okay you.

know you want to show up as a full. integrated whole self and. not compartmentalize and split and. fragment yourself in a way that keeps. you safe. And that compartmentalization. did keep me safe and felt very necessary. for a long time because I was trying to. keep some walls up where I could nurture. myself and learn and grow and then be. ready to share those pieces. But I think.

it's probably figuring out. how to avoid the pieces that I know. aren't good for me and that are. genuinely just toxic. But to. yeah have the courage to show up now in. whatever form that is and. trust again whether that's a person or. it's making something or it's kind of.

okay. Have you learned enough that you. can integrate and and share now that. you've done this in a work on your own? >> Yeah, that that feels that resonates. >> Okay, good. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's hard it's hard to it's. hard to verbalize. It's almost like it is that you've been. private for so long. >> Yeah. >> And you've been working in private on. >> Yes. your fascinations, your.

curiosities, your friends, your inner. work, and then to actually come out and. talk about. >> Yes. >> what that period has been like publicly. >> Yeah. is is something you can keep. pushing off and and. >> and maybe the how that ties into. partnership is that I've realized. actually that some of the people I've. been attracting. on the dating front think they're dating. some previous version of me who I'm who.

still exists in some ways but who isn't. actually. who I am now. And I realized I was like, "Oh, like I'm still getting sent people. who like. are seeing someone who was part of the. picture but but not the whole picture.". And. it's starting to feel uncomfortable. to not feel like I'm telling this part. of the story, if that makes sense. >> It's even hard for you to be like,

"Well, these are the parts that are. still there and these are like it's. >> not dedactic process of like. >> No, >> it's not an equation where you can go, well, these are the parts that I've. kept. These are the parts that are not. like it doesn't work like that. >> No, it doesn't work like that. It. doesn't work like that. But I'm still. getting requests that want to drag me a. little bit more into. a version of myself who was great and. she was doing great stuff. But I think. there's a part of me now that really.

feels like being able to speak to you. one-on-one in this kind of setting as. opposed to what I used to do, which. would be an enormous audience and. there'd be like 300 people there. And. like of course there's intimacy you can. find in a room like that, but like the. truth is. it's really difficult to find the kind. of depth and the kind of connections. that I know are the ones that nourish me. personally. And that's it's different. for everyone, but that just aren't.

allowing me to have the thing that I. know is the real thing that I'm actually. seeking. And what I used to go into lots. of other environments seeking and. thinking I'd be able to get and keep and. just not not being able to find. Emma, something I wanted to ask you. about that's. difficult and challenging because it's. something you spoke about earlier as to. being such a big part of your life, an. important part of your life, but. recently. there's been. so many conversations and comments.

directly from JK Rowling, whether it's. her saying she'd never forgive you for. your views or the fact that when she was. asked what ruins the movies for her, she. named yourself and some of your. co-stars. And I imagine that's an. extremely difficult thing when you've. been a part of someone's world, when. you've felt connected to their work and. then for it now to kind of be a full 180. and for someone to publicly say these. things that can be quite extremely.

hurtful actually. How do you think about that? I really don't believe that by. having had that experience and holding. the love and support and views that I. have mean that I can't and don't. treasure Joe and the person that I. that I had personal experiences with.

I will never believe that one negates. the other and that my experience of that. person. I don't get to keep and cherish. I to come back to our earlier thing like. I just don't think these things are. either or. I think. it's my deepest wish that. I I hope people who don't agree with my.

opinion will love me and I hope I can. keep loving people who I don't. necessarily share the same opinion with. And I think that's a very very important. way for me that I need to be able to. move through life. M. >> I just really I guess I to circle back. around I really do believe in. having conversations and that those are.

really important and that. I don't know. I guess where I've landed is. it's not so much what we say or what we. believe. but very often how we say it. That's. really important and that's really. frustrating and not what you want to. hear when you're really angry and upset. with someone. Um, but I don't know. I just see this world.

right now where we seem to be. giving permission for this kind of like. throwing out of people or that people. are disposable. And I I just think. that's. I will always think that's wrong. I I. always I just believe that. no one is no no one's disposable. >> Mhm. >> And everyone as far as possible,

whatever the conversation is, should and. can be treated with. at the very least dignity and respect. M. >> thank you for challenging us and pushing. us. Yeah, it takes a lot to. >> I think that's what we're all being. challenged to do is try and hold two. truths at once. And yes, >> those two truths don't have to be. complimentary, but they they can stand. at the same time. Yeah. >> I think the thing I'm most upset about. is that a conversation was never made.

possible. >> So you remain open for that dialogue. >> Yeah. And I always will. I believe in. that. I believe in that completely. Um. I believe in that completely. >> I just don't Yeah. I just don't want to. say anything that like continues to. weaponize a really like toxic debate and. conversation, >> which is. maybe why I I don't well it is why I.

don't comment or like continue to. comment. Not because I don't care about. her or about the issue, but because I. just the way that the conversation is. being had. >> feels really painful to me. And so. that's why that's why that decision. >> Yeah, I really I really appreciate that. mindset and. deeply deeply feel like.

if people are challenged to go there. themselves like it takes a lot to think. that way and feel that way. Yes, >> it's it's what it's what healing really. requires across, you know, around the. world. And I can't imagine how many. young people who look up to you and. people who look up to you will feel the. same way to. >> to recognize that that's how we engage. That's what we look for. We. >> It's It's not that we're trying to make. everything pretty and perfect. >> No, it's that we're willing to engage in. an uncomfortable conversation. >> Yes. her kindness and words of.

encouragement and that steadfastness. that. and also honestly just as a young woman. to for her to have written that. character created that world. given me an opportunity which to be. honest barely exists in the history of. English literature. um you know. how can I there's just no world in which. I could ever cancel her out or cancel.

that out. for anything. It It has to remain true. It is true. And this is where this like. holding of these I just don't know what. else to do other than hold these two. seemingly incompatible things together. at the same time and just. hope maybe they will one day resolve or. like cojoin themselves and maybe accept. that they never will but that they can. both still be true and.

I can love her. I can know she loved me. I can be grateful to her. I can know the. things that she said are true and. there can be this whole other thing and. my job feels like to just hold just to. hold all of it. But the bigger thing is. just. what she's done will never be taken away. from me.

>> Thanks for setting such a powerful. example. Thank. >> you. Yeah, >> that beautiful Fcott Fitzgerald quote. that. >> the sign of a first rate intelligence is. the ability to hold two opposing ideas. at the same time and still retain the. ability to function. He goes on to say, one should therefore be able to see that. the world is hopeless but still be. determined to make it otherwise. >> And it's like that's. >> that's Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow. He ran deeper than I knew.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. T. >> Wow. That's No one ever part. >> That's incredible. >> Yeah, it's one of my favorite. >> Wow. Well done you for remembering that. second part. Wow. You've made me like. Fitzgerald a lot. I mean, I liked him, don't get me wrong. Like. >> Yeah. Yeah. I've I to me it's my it's. one of my favorite ideas. >> It's so good. >> Yeah. It's so good. >> That's so good. >> Yeah. Emma, for someone who has tried to. stay out of the public eye, >> Yeah. You've still been vocal about. causes you believe in things that you.

stand for. >> Yes. >> And that always seems to get attention. and reaction. Mhm. >> And so when you shared online your. solidarity for Palestine, >> the former Israeli UN ambassador Danny. Danon called you an anti-semite and and. his tweet said 10 points from Gryffindor. for being an anti-semite. >> Mhm. >> What goes through your mind when you you. see that?

>> This happened um this happened a few. years ago now. >> Yeah. I think what concerned me at the. time was the way that that label was. being used. And I think even now. I see that playing out. where we aren't people don't feel like. they can talk about. what's happening safely. this duality created where we don't seem.

able to care about the victims of. terrorism. and care about the genocide that's. happening in Palestine at the same time. And both things have to be allowed to be. true. You have to be allowed to care about. 50,000 civilians dying, 17,000 of which. are children. and care deeply. about.

the victims of this awful terrorist. attack. >> I appreciate you sharing that and. yeah, it it seems like that belief. system you have. >> in Yes. and and this and and together it. kind of runs through so many. >> Yeah. >> areas of your life. >> Yeah. It it. >> personal and beyond. >> Yes. I think that's I think that's true. I think that's true. I hope that you've. felt you've been able to share the parts. of yourself and the version of yourself.

that you wanted to and intended to. >> I hope so. I feel very hot and I feel. very hot and uh I feel a little bit like. is this room even real? Like are we is. this like a god rar play where we're. like in some sort of existential room. that doesn't exist? >> In a second all the drop. >> Honestly, I feel a little bit like that. But as long as this was real and these. are these four walls are actually here, then yes, I do feel that way. And um I.

or like I've done everything I can in a. context that's still I can still see. cameras and lights and I know there's. >> a person behind me, but I feel to the. extent to which I I can humanly do that. I've shown up for myself and. for you in a way and the invitation that. this podcast is and the work that you do. in the world, I've answered that. invitation. So, I'm feel.

>> I feel good about that. >> And I've got I know it's a bit hot, but. I've got a couple of questions I want to. end on. We end on with every episode. >> Yes. >> Um these are your final five. They have. to be answered in one word to one. sentence maximum, but. >> I will probably ignore that rule as I. always do. >> Amazing. >> So, question number one, okay, is um we. asked these to everyone who's ever been. on the show. What is the best advice. you've ever heard or received? I'm going to cheat slightly.

if you'll allow it. >> Yeah. >> I read Emergent Strategy by Adrian Marie. Brown. It was given to me as a gift by. my friend Amarie for my 30th birthday. And I think that. being a good pious Protestant English. girl, I really believed that if I worked. hard enough and if I was kind of saintly. enough that someone would see my good. deeds and all of my hard work and like.

give me the sticker, you know, give me. the like give me the star. And so a kind. of martyrdom was part of my sort of I. understood was important in my and I. think reading her book and reading. about. pleasure activism which is sort of the. idea that like. anything that you need to s that you. want to sustain eg justice eg.

You need it to be easy and you need it. to be pleasurable in a way because. that's what's going to mean that you'll. be able to do it for a long time. >> Part of my burnout was that I wasn't. prioritizing. pleasure and joy as the kind of like. underpinning for even some of the the. harder, more somber, more cerebral things that I was doing. And.

I think. >> that's such a great answer. changed my. life. And I think we also have a model. particularly within activism and um in. lots of spaces but like this kind of. sole individual charismatic leader and I. like you you know I my heroes always. Martin Luther King and Gandhi and you. just saw this sort of like solitary. person that was doing that and I think.

if I could go back and do anything. differently it would be that when I. embarked on some of the public activism. that I did. I wouldn't go in the way I. did. I would go in with what I have now, which is not just like an activist. community. Like I have friends who can. give me feedback and who I can talk to. and who I feel that I'm not doing the. work alone solo. However that might. look. Yeah. I guess heroicism and and.

martyrdom the way the way that it was. looked maybe. I just don't believe. that's how we'll get the job done. anymore. Anything anything good will get. done. >> So I think that book and I think that. idea that revolutionized my approach. >> I love that. Yeah, that's a great. answer. It's beautiful. I want to read. that book now. >> I haven't read it. >> You have to. You have to have her on the. podcast. >> Yeah, I should. Yeah, absolutely. Uh. question number two. What is the worst. advice you've ever heard or received?

>> Oh, >> so much. >> How long have you got? >> God, mostly just like I think a lot of. stuff around toughen up, bottle it up. >> Um, >> deal with that later, you know, just. like subtle versions of like, well, maybe tell the truth, but just not all. of it. Just like maybe just like tell. like a little bit of it, but not like. the whole thing, you know? Cuz like the. truth is the problem with like telling. three quarters of the truth is that then.

you're sort of in this like constant. >> peeling and unpeeling of yourself where. you sort of like you're sort of trying. to do it but you're not quite doing it. And I don't know I think a lot of advice. around that. Also anyone that tells you. not to do what you love. terrible advice doing what you love will. lead you where you need to go even if. you can't see it at the time. Uh.

yeah. Yeah. Think about terrible terrible beauty. tips and advice given around like. >> I don't know just like oh god all again. like back to our previous conversation. all the ridiculous things that you are. encouraged to try and do as a woman like. fake tan and and I mean it's hilarious. I actually right now I I it might be. like well covered up, but I accidentally. have a had a bottle of fake tan in my.

bathroom and in my jet lag state last. night I thought I was putting. moisturizer on, but now I have like. these. >> like horrific uh fake tan marks on my. legs and feet. I guess I'm just thinking. about just like oh my god. And recently. I was like, "Okay, I want to get my. teeth whitened." And I looked like Ross. from Friends when he'd had that awful. fake tanning accident because they were. just way too white. And then I had to. spend go back for two other visits to. get the dentist to put my teeth back to.

my normal teeth. So I guess I was just. laughing thinking about like worse. advice is just like don't ever listen to. beauty technicians or anyone advising. you to do anything weird to your body, face, appearance. Just just don't don't. listen. Don't don't take the bait. Just. don't do it. >> So good. Best answer. Best answer. >> Question number three. How are you how. are you now going to choose work. projects or activism differently?

>> Does the person that's asking me to do. something with them, uh, can they. confidently look at me and say that they. care about me far more than like what. we're producing? and. and do I care about them that way? One. of my favorite people I worked with, Steve Chabosski, uh I remember him. leaving what was a very productive uh. rehearsal or script meeting with Logan. Lurman, Ezra Miller and I and he was.

like, I need to go and be with my wife. now. And we were like, I don't think. I've ever heard I mean, at that point, I. certainly had ever heard a director in. my career say they needed to leave for a. personal reason or for a personal. relationship, but I worked far harder. for Steve than I worked for any other. director because. >> I think I was able to be a far give a. far more vulnerable performance in that. film because I felt that he really cared. about me beyond the product of the film. And I want to work with people like that.

who for whom the process is as important. as the outcome and the people that are. part of it are more important than. whatever the outcome is. I think this is. a really difficult thing that I see. everywhere in the world right now is. that we treat objects and things like. they're sacred and we don't treat people. like they're the sacred thing. And that. switch. Yeah. I think it causes a lot of pain.

>> Emma, something that you told me when we. were speaking on the phone. >> was that you've been working with young. people. >> on helping them with some of the. challenges that you've faced in your own. career and your own life. >> Yeah. >> And I remember being so touched by that. and I wanted to learn more and for you. to share it because. >> I Yeah. I just think it's really special. and I was sharing it with some of my. team before you arrived and and everyone. was quite drawn to it. So, >> as a young. person,

and you know, as I've basically shared. over however long it's been that we've. been speaking, I just. really needed to. be having more conversations with people. my own age and people that were older. than me. I feel like I tried to navigate. so many problems on my own and I just. didn't know. who to really speak to and I was. speaking to such a narrow group of. people about what I was trying to.

navigate and I I just I think that. working with young people and giving. them each other and also the space, the. reason, the excuses to talk about the. things that we don't talk about or. create spaces for has been the most. gratifying, the most purposeful and of service I. felt in a long time because.

it turns out pretty often that a lot of. the things that we're struggling with, other people are struggling with as. well. And so in a way going back around. and trying to put out into the world a. lot of the things that I knew I needed. as a young person and didn't get. It's. been the best most the best most. gratifying thing. And I feel really. lucky to be in a position and in a place. where I can say and know like like I've.

kind of done this treacherous journey. And I think that. I think I might have some ideas about. what might be needed for someone to come. out the other side of that safely. >> So it feels good to be of use. >> Yeah. I love that. Fifth and final. question. We ask this to every guest. who's ever been on the show. If you. could create one law that everyone in. the world had to follow, what would it. be? >> Oh wow. One law.

Okay. There's a couple of contenders. I. want to run you through one of them with. you. One is going to be. >> We'll vote on them. >> Okay. Great. Perfect. One would be. around the importance of. telling the truth or like speaking your. truth or just because I feel like so. much so much chaos is caused by people. not being sure whether or not they. should or it's a good idea to or I think. that would be a pretty amazing one. Uh,

another contender I mean it's the. obvious one is treat other people as you. would like to be treated. That would. obviously solve a lot of problems as. well. >> I like that one. You gave. >> the last one? >> Yeah, the first one. The first one. >> Oh, the first one. Yeah. The truth. Yeah. I guess it took me a long time and. probably. probably through doing my yoga teacher. training is speaking truth with kindness. is one of the first nyamas, right? >> Very disappointed. I can't remember what. the word is in. >> not sata.

>> maybe. Yeah. Speaking the truth with. kind like speaking the truth with. kindness. I think of the. >> there's an amazing there's an amazing. quote which actually is. was given to me recently by a friend. which is like the truth. the truth without kindness is brutality. and kindness without. truth is manipulation. >> Say that again. >> Truth without kindness is brutality. and. kindness without truth is manipulation. And so when I say like tell your truth,

I don't mean going around like just. being awful to everyone. I mean like. telling the microscopic truth and like. having those being willing to have a. tolerance for those conversations. One. of my favorite metaphors, I actually. wrote about this recently for being in a. relationship with anyone is like you're. in it's in a way it's it's a dance. It's. a fight. Like I think about boxing in. the sense of like who is going to go. down to the mat with you and like not. tap out because.

>> being honest about what's really going. on is uncomfortable and it's risky as we. talked about earlier. You risk every. time you tell the truth of maybe losing. someone that you love because you don't. know how they're going to respond to. whatever your truth is. But I think to. live that way creates the intimacy and. connection that I think we long for. >> and also like sets people free in a way. You and them truth. Yeah. Truth with. kindness. I think that's I think that's. going to have to be my choice. My factor.

of deduction. >> Yeah. The Bhagat Gita gives four. principles for truth with kindness. The. first is what you speak should be. truthful. >> Yes. >> The second is it should be beneficial to. all. >> Ooh. The third is it shouldn't agitate. the minds of others. >> Wow. >> And the fourth is it should be aligned. with eternal wisdom and timeless wisdom. >> That's beautiful and perfect because. yeah, I think there's truths which are. if they're not beneficial that do just.

agitate. I think that's. >> and it's not about not saying it. It's. the idea that you've thought so much. about how you say it. Yes. It's not that. you've sanitized it because that's the. modern day version. The Gita is not. telling you to sanitize or be silenced. >> It's telling you to filter your thought. >> to make sure that the way you say it is. digestible. >> Yes. >> For for everyone who's going to hear it. and therefore it actually has. transformative power. >> It's not that it's not provocative or. that it doesn't. It's just that you're.

not saying it in a way to trigger or get. a reaction. >> You're saying in a way that hits someone. like an arrow of truth. >> and goes, I have to change. >> Wow. because that person has been so. mindful of how they spoke. >> Oh my god, that's incredible. That's. that's everything I've just been trying. to say about Yeah. If if we God, if. everyone was mindful enough about how. they spoke their truth that it could. just go straight to the heart. Oh. >> yeah. >> Um. >> rather than hit the ego along the way.

and the mind. And that's why we can't. talk because everything we say triggers. someone's mind or their ego and then. everything we say does it back. And so. now we're having a mind and ego debate. which. >> isn't the one that goes all the way to. tap, you know, in your. >> We're so focused on defending whatever. the thing is that we feel that we need. to defend that we just can't. >> can't get to the heart. >> No, you can't hit the heart. Um, so. good. So good, >> Emma. Thank you for.

>> the longest recorded conversation in onp. purpose history. We had to change. >> the cards, the cameras. We had to like. and we haven't paused. Just so everyone. knows, just so everyone knows, me and. Emma have not moved. So, we didn't take. a break. >> There was no bathroom break. There was. no break of whatever kind. We both sat. there was no coffee break. We have sat. in these seats for the entire duration. that you watch this show or listen to. it. And so Emma, you have the uh you. know, to your competitive and winning.

spirit, you have the uh award for. longest ever podcast recording. >> I I I don't know whether to be mortified. or like seriously embarrassed or uh or. like think feel like this is some kind. of victory of some kind. I guess we've. sat here for like and not moved for more. than 3 hours. >> Really? Yeah. >> Surely. >> It's amazing. >> Um that's amazing. Well, thank you for. Thank you so much. This has been such an. amazing conversation. If you love this. episode, you'll love my interview with. Dr. Gabbor Mate on understanding your.

trauma and how to heal emotional wounds. to start moving on from the past. >> Everything in nature grows only where. it's vulnerable. So, a tree doesn't grow. where it's hard and thick, does it? It. goes with soft and green and vulnerable.