It’s Not Your Job To Keep Them Happy, So Do This Instead | Dr. Ramani

Not all families are good. Many families. are harmful. Sometimes that person who. goes no contact is the first person who. says enough is enough. >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> No. Hell no. I have seen people heal. brilliantly without forgiving. >> When do you know it's time to cut off a. toxic family member? >> I don't know that there's a moment of. knowing, but every single person will. say grief, grief, grief, grief, grief, regret, shame, guilt, and then peace.

>> Hey everyone, welcome back to On. Purpose, the place you come to become. happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorite, someone that you always want back, someone that always gets a millions and. millions of downloads and views whenever. she's on the show. It's my friend and. incredible thought leader, Dr. Ramani. Durvasula, a clinical psychologist and. one of the most trusted voices in the. world on narcissistic relationships, whose work has reached millions of.

people searching for clarity and. validation. Right now, more people than. ever are asking a painful question. Should I go no contact with my family? Nearly one in four adults report being. estranged from a family member. What. used to be unthinkable is now a global. conversation, and often a deeply lonely. one. But how do you know when distance. is healthy and when it's something you. regret? If you've ever felt guilt, grief, or confusion about stepping back.

from someone you love, this conversation. will change how you think about it. Please welcome to On Purpose, Dr. Ramani. >> Thank you, Jay. >> It's always wonderful to have you back. >> It's lovely to see you. So good to see. >> much from you. You make everything. clear. >> Thank you. >> I leave these conversations feeling I. have so much to share with people. You. joined me on tour last year, which I was. so grateful for. >> But really this conversation has truly. taken over. culture in such an interesting way. >> Mhm. >> has. >> And I wanted to just start off as I. always do with you because I think you.

do this so brilliantly. Can you please. define what no contact means? >> It's just what it sounds like. It's no. more contact. It's no more digital. contact. It's no more in-person contact. You're not taking that person's calls. You're not showing up to where they are. It's almost like the death of a. relationship even while the people are. living. >> That's an interesting way of thinking. about it. Because I think no contact. it feels like okay, I'm not going to. call them. I'm not going to talk. But. when you think about what you just said, that that carries so much. [clears throat] more weight that. definition. I read in the national.

survey from Cornell University's family. estrangement and reconciliation project, they found that 27% of US adults. reported being estranged from one or. more family members. 27%. That's huge. So cutting off family. used to be unthinkable. Now it feels. like it's everywhere. What what changed? Like we're talking about a third of. Americans. >> I think what's challenging is is that. this concept of no contact is really. it's heterogeneous. It's not just one.

thing, right? And because it's not one. thing, that 27% number. it's it's made up of a really kind of. mixed-up pot of people. First of all, I. would say that you're absolutely right, Jake. There was a time this would never. happen and I think there are still a lot. of cultures and parts of the world where. it's still unthinkable. You cannot do. this. Listen, more people are talking. about things that were once sort of. deemed shameful. The sort of cultural. and societal control of you can't do. this and people are saying, yes, I can. I think there's more information. I.

think there's more content, conversations like this. That said, I really have to say that this remains a. huge shaming issue out there. That when. we hear someone is estranged from a. family member, most people's mind will. go to what's wrong with you. What's. wrong with you? What's wrong with your. family? It's immediately a very. pathologized kind of a take on it. But. the problem is that no contact happens. for such different reasons. In some. cases, no contact is happening literally. because a person says, "There's no.

safety here. I'm abandoning fully. abandoning myself to remain in. relationship with this person or even. feeling like there's potential harm.". Even if it's not literal harm. It's not. that somebody's going to come and hit. you, but this psychological sense of. vigilance or that here we go again. And. for classical example I'll give you, somebody was abused as a child, physically, sexually abused. And the. family system minimizes it, perhaps even. denies it. Which means as a child that. person wasn't protected. And now as an.

adult, their attitude is, "You're still. trying to wipe out a part of my history. that I'm trying to integrate so I can. heal." So that's the point at which some. people. A dear friend of mine, Kimberly Shannon. Murphy's been very outspoken about this. about her own story of of family abuse. And she said, "No more. I I realized I. hit that wall where in order for me to. heal the rest of the way, I had to end. contact with people whose presence was. harming me." That's one piece. Now Jay, there's a group of people that go no. contact because it's punitive. I'll show.

you. You're never going to hear from me from. me again. So let's say I don't know, we're siblings, right? And you won't, I. don't know, loan me money or do. something I want you to do. I'd say, "Jay, you're dead to me, right?" Because. I'm going to punish you cuz you wouldn't. do the thing I want. >> That's different. >> That's different, but that's going to be. represented in those numbers. >> Right. >> what I'm saying? So there's this. heterogeneity and I can say as a. psychologist who's worked with many. clients who not only either have gone no.

contact, but I work with them as they. grappled with this issue. Nobody makes. this decision lightly. Those punishment. people do. They're like, "Forget it. You. won't do what I want. No contact, right?" But for the people who are doing. it for reasons of safety, protection, healing, so that they no longer have to. abandon themselves. They will work this. through for years and years and years. feeling guilty, feeling disloyal, feeling like bad people, wondering. what's wrong with them. And that will.

churn and churn. Often times there's a. moment. I'm I'm not going to bring too. many details with it cuz I'm trying to. protect some of the people involved, but. I I'm recently actually now actively. kind of going through a no contact. family situation. And it is something that had played out. for such a long time in a family system, right? And it's like the child part of. me is like something's not right. And. then the adult part of me is like, nah, I could turn away. Wasn't a person I had. contact with. Then I was having more and. like, wait a minute. I know more about. this. It doesn't feel cool. Then the.

terrible thing happened. I was like, no. This would be a cancellation of myself. in the name of culturally trying to. maintain a relationship, right? So that. evolution Well, I'm telling you for me, that was a 40-year process. This is does. not decision that's made lightly. And I. think what we're doing, the injustice. we're doing here, is assuming that. someone who's gone no contact has made. this decision capriciously or. frivolously. >> A lot of the people you speak to, are. they going no contact as first immediate.

action, or is it a last resort? >> They're like, I've tried everything. I. should one more Do you understand? And. then there's more of the denial, more of. the gaslighting, more of the. manipulation, more of the what. disrespect, call it what you will. But there's this moment. And it's not. just in the no contact, but I think no. contact's a manifestation. When you become acutely, actively, and consciously aware. that you are actually slicing off. massive parts of your authentic self.

to maintain a relationship, and on top. of that, have become hyper-vigilant, watching. every like In essence, it is just a full. self-abandonment. You become aware of. that. You're now choosing between. self-loathing or self-protection. And the problem is, you know, in the. words of the great Gabor Maté, is like. there's no pain-free path, folks. There. isn't one. Because if you choose this. point this path of I'm not going to have.

anything to do with this person anymore. It doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel. healthy. Family members, people from the world at. large, people in your community are. going to say, "Oh, come now. There must. be a way to do There are your family. You only have one family. You only have. one whatever." Fill in the blank. Parent, aunt, uncle, cousin, whatever it. is, right? That's the pushback, sister. That's the. pushback that comes. So, you could. imagine the amount of resistance people. who are engaging in no contact. protectively are going through for them. to still make that decision, cut out a. sense of belonging, which is a primary.

human need. It's not that punitive, "You're not. doing what I want. I'm going to cut you. off." That again, that's much more. punitive, petulant, tantrumy. This is. entirely different experience. They're. not the same. >> It's so hard because as you were. mentioning there that no path feels. great and it's hard either way because. you either stay connected to this person. who causes you pain, causes you hurt, causes you stress, and then you're. dealing with all of that. Or you. disconnect from them and go no contact,

but then you feel guilt and then you. feel shame from the outside world and. you feel bad. Like, I mean, this is not. even no contact. I have a friend who's. moving country and they were telling. their friends and the first thing their. friends said to them is, "What about. your parents?". >> Mhm. >> And they're not even no contact. They. love their parents. They're going to see. their parents. They They enjoy spending. time with their parents. They're just. moving country for work. And even me, I live away from my parents. for work and for the life I'm building. And people are always like, "Yeah, what. about them?" So, I'm like, "I can't.

imagine if someone actually said. Actually, I'm not talking to my parents. anymore." How much shame and guilt that. comes with. I guess what we're saying is. when someone goes no contact for the. right reasons, you've got to recognize. just how deep that must have been for. them. >> It's very deep and I think that the. challenge has become Jay, especially at. the end of 2025, I maybe someone had put. a book out, I don't even know what, but. there was a lot of conversation in the. public sphere about no contact, but a. lot of it was about this is terrible, all estrangement can be worked through. Because what this becomes a conversation.

about Jay is becomes a conversation. about a bigger issue called repair, right? The repair of a rupture in a. relationship. And it's not always easy to repair a. rupture, but it's the only way forward. If ruptures cannot be repaired, the. relationship slowly dies. That's what. happens. It becomes untenably unsafe, right? So, the person who ultimately. goes no contact in these unsafe. situations has likely tried to repair. several times. They'll even say, "Can. you see what you did to hurt me? Can you.

see?" They're literally putting on a. PowerPoint. I'm giving you the road map. here for this apology. And the other person either doesn't get. it, gives an anemic apology, or will give the weak apology and turn. around and do the thing again. Right? It's the doing the thing again. that is so horrifying. Cuz if someone. says sorry and then does it again, that's not safe. They've you've just. shown me you can do a thing that's. harmful or unsafe. And no matter what, you're going to.

likely do it again. So, that that becomes the core of what. this is, or the denial of another human. being's experience. Families might feel. uncomfortable because something. uncomfortable happened. For example, abuse in the system. And nobody wants to sit around and talk. about that. But usually the survivor of. these experiences simply wants to hear, "That happened. We're so sorry." And. maybe even acknowledge and we didn't. protect you sufficiently, right? That's. often times all a person They we can't.

We know we can't turn back time. We. can't go back and fix it. But, the. acknowledgement of our pain, bearing. witness to someone's pain, that is what. people want. And there's a chance of. moving forward. But, what I really, really am struggling with is the. rhetoric, which is that we put the light. of shame and blame on the person who's. making the decision to say, "This is not. safe. This is not healthy. This is. taking a toll on me. I'm stepping back.".

Instead. of focusing on the person or people. whose behavior. was the catalyst. >> Yes. >> for this choice. Once again, we're. putting the focus on the person who is. harmed as being the problem. >> What are the most common. reasons you see people that you work. with and that you've come across through. research that go no contact? >> I think the most common ones are, like I. said, denial of childhood experiences of. abuse. And with that denial, that can. lead to a second reason, which is now. people are sometimes saying, "I'm.

actually concerned for my kids. They. Nobody's even willing to step up and. acknowledge this happened, and they're. expecting my children to be in the. presence of an unsafe person." So, those. can often be a catalyst. Another piece. is repeated attempts at repair. You. know, you keep trying to say, "Please. don't do it again." They do it again. "Please don't say that again." They say. it again. They'll even say, "I'm sorry.". And then they'll do it again. So, there's no way to get it fixed. Sometimes it's what I call sort of the. scorched earth piece. The thing that's. done cannot be undone. Now, it could be.

something as like they're intoxicated. and they put your kids in the car with. them and they drive. They leave the kids. unsupervised in a dangerous situation. It's usually a case of irresponsibility. or something that it ended up putting. people at risk or harm, or actually. something terrible happens. That can be. a catalyst for no contact. Maybe it's. not the kind of physical sexual abuse, but it's even like a lifetime criticism, devaluing, you know, the. year over year, it's going to be the. same comments about your weight, about.

your career. It's just it's a. never-ending. negating, abusive, harmful cycle. That. can be a case. Now we're living in. interesting times where there's a. tremendous amount of political. polarization. And there are people who are saying. what you voted for has hurt the people I. love most dearly in life. That's. actually leading to some no contact as. well. And it can be sometimes multiple of. those in some cases can be very, very. unique to the situation. I always say. it's like a slice in the fabric of trust.

that slices the fabric of safety. You. know, both of those things are happening. and we don't always think of it as. feeling unsafe cuz we're often not in. acute danger, but when people go through. this they'll say. I feel sick when I have to see this. person. I feel sick after I talk to this. person. I feel anxious. I mean, literally sick. People say I get rashes. Their autoimmune symptomatology may. flare up. They get gastrointestinal. issues, terrible headaches. Like my body. falls apart at this contact. So there's.

sometimes even that awareness. And then. I was interesting I just was talking to. a woman on our own network and she was. talking about going no contact with her. own mother. What happened was she felt a. relief like she'd never felt in her. life. She said, "I don't have to go. through this again." You know, that and. she and she said was not easy. It was a. nightmare to make the choice and then a. lifting of this horrible weight. So not. everyone feels relief. A lot of people. say feel the guilt and the shame, but. those are the kinds of catalysts to why.

people make this choice and it's usually. not one thing. It's many, many, many, many, many things that can culminate in. that one big bad thing. So you can point. to an event, but I promise you everyone. who says I went no contact after X. happened might tell me everything that. happened before X. It was never just. about X. That was the proverbial straw. >> According to psychology, how do we know. if someone has the ability to change? >> Human beings are in are fallible. creatures. We make mistakes. We make.

mistakes in relationships all the time, in marriages, in friendships, with. siblings, with parents. It's never the. mistake. It's always the repair, right? The ability to be vulnerable, to have. the conversation. If you look at Esther. Perel's work, Esther's work is. interesting. Whenever I have. conversations with her, I'm always. talking about narcissistic cheaters, and. Esther's talking about the larger world. of infidelity. But Esther has so many. examples of people who even after a huge. breach of trust, like infidelity, can. repair the relationship when there's. authentic accountability. And there I do.

really believe that repair, there's a. real anatomy of how we repair, that. there's the person who did the harmful. thing takes accountability. Bonus points. if it's spontaneous accountability, but. takes accountability. Recognizes it, bears witness, bears. witness to the pain of the other. Offers. an apology, not based on how they're. inconvenienced about it, but I am so. sorry. I can see this hurt you. You. You're suffering, and I'm so sorry I was. a part of that. But then, the ringer of ringers is they.

change their behavior. And then that's. when we say, I am so sorry. Let me like. let Let me collect myself cuz this. wasn't okay. Now, they can't keep doing. that. They can't keep slipping and. saying sorry, slipping and saying sorry. But some time may go by, and then. they'll make the mistake. Again, accountability. And that's the back and. forth dance. That's how you know. It's. Yeah, all the things I just said. Accountability, apology, bearing witness, but above all, behavior change.

That's it. That's how you know someone. can do it. And I'm sure you've been in. relationships where there's been repair. I've been in relationships when there. repair there's repair. And what's. amazing is when there's repair, the. relationship gets stronger. It actually. goes to a much deeper place because now. you've shown that even when something. scary happens, you're protected because. someone's saying, "I didn't do right and. I will try to do right." Every harmed. person out there would have loved to. have heard that. But, that's how we. know. It's the actual manifestation of. the behavior. It's not cuz someone says.

they're going to. Sadly, that's time. >> Totally agree. Let's say someone's. listening right now and thinking, "I want to go no contact. I've been. thinking about it. I've tried. everything. I've tried therapy on. myself. I tried getting cards to the other. person to go to therapy. They weren't up. for it. I tried to raise what they were. accountable for. They maybe took some. accountability, but they didn't really. change their behavior. They continued to act the same way. I've. I've never felt like they've really. understood or acknowledged what they've. done. So, they're feeling all of that.

But, then at the same time they go, "I can never go no contact. It's my mom. or my dad that like did so much for me. I know they weren't perfect, but we. start to justify and fill in the gaps. and we start to make excuses sometimes. or we start to maybe even have very. valid points. But, there's still a part. of us that goes, "I don't want to see them because I. can't." If someone's in that position, how would you encourage them to think. about and reflect on that? >> There's different ways to think about.

this. Even in the narcissism world, and. I talk about sort of um disengagement. strategies. We talk about yellow rock. and gray rock and low contact and all of. that. It's for a person to really assess that. they're even thinking, "I want to go no. contact." What I want to know more than. anything is what's your why? What's driving it? Some people say, "I. get sick every time I see them. I get. hurt every time I see them. I literally. don't feel safe in my body when I'm with. them. I'm not even myself. It's an. out-of-body experience. I'm concerned. for my kids when I'm with them." Pay.

attention to your why. If your why is, "I want them to feel as bad as I have,". that is going to often be a less healthy. reason and it can leave the person who's. gone no contact more likely to. experience regret. But I would say to folks, this is number. one rule of no contact, I personally. think, never tell the other person. you're going no contact because it. becomes a lot of clanging bells and it. feels like a a tactic at that point. In. many cases, no contact is a gradual.

stepping back anyhow. It's it's pretty. rare for a person to see someone every. single day until Friday and then on. Saturday go no contact with them, right? It tends to be successive approximations. and what might be is that you're. spending less time with them. And there. may be a sweet spot that you say. I am not voluntarily going to show up, but if it's something like I'm not going. to miss my cousin's wedding because. they're going to be there. So some. people will kind of try to clear out. that kind of territory. Some people will do the form of low. contact where they say, "If I see them,

it's going to be polite conversation. I'm not going to tell them what's going. on in my life. I'm not going to engage. them in any significant way. I'm not. going to sleep in their home. I'm not. going to have a meal with them." So some. of it may actually look like that. But I would tell people, experiment with. different strategies. See what can work. for you cuz the cultural piece is huge, Jay. A lot of people will say, "This is. just not what we do in my culture." And. it is it's not This is no longer just. about no contact with me and a member of. my family, whomever it may be, parent,

sibling, whomever. It is I am now kind. of wobbling this whole family system and. I'm very fond of people cuz some people. will say, "I go no contact with person. A, I don't get to see person B who's. actually really beloved to me." So now. you're all of a sudden finding yourself. in these triangulations. So I'll tell. people, figure out the successive. approximations and what helps you feel. safer cuz sometimes through agency a. person will say, "I know I'm going to my. cousin's wedding to see my cousin get. married, but I may very well leave.

before the dinner because I think that's. when things are going to kind of get. hot. And I'm going to let my cousin. know, you mean so much to me. I want to. see your wedding. I want to see that. moment. You're getting married, but I. think that the dinner may be too much. I. think we can communicate to other. stakeholders. What I also remind people. is no contact may not always be forever. This is a big one for people because I. view no contact as a time of healing. It's a time when this person who leaves. you feeling unsafe in your body and. self-abandoning and all of that. You've. removed that stimulus for a while. You.

can do a lot of the hard work of. healing. Really get back in your body. You know, you know, really explore your. sense of self, your authentic self, connect in other healthy relationships. Armed with that, when circumstances line. up that you may have to be in contact. with that person again, you're in a much. different position to do so, much more. from a place of agency. I'm not going to. stay all evening. I'm not going to get. into those topics. If they start poking, I'm going to give myself permission to. leave. I'm then probably not feel as. triggered, too. So, I think the decision.

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them every week, now I see them every. month, and now I see them every quarter, and now I don't see them maybe once a. year if that. I think we also underestimate, and I can. speak about this from experience that I. found when I've been in this position, I didn't do this as a technique, but. even though I did not speak to this one. person for around 2 years, when I didn't did talk to them again, I found that the relationship was so. much more respectful from their side. because they realized there were real. consequences to that behavior. >> Mhm. >> And that's something I never realized.

before. I always felt being a loving, compassionate, empathetic person would. be the thing to help them change. When I. realized that no contact, even though I. didn't use it as a technique to change. them, I did it to protect myself, that changed their relationship with me. because they now realized and initially. when I stopped talking to them, their. their reaction was like, "Well, why did. you stop talking to me? What's going. on?" And my response was, "Because I don't want to be treated that. way anymore. And they said, "Well, what. do you mean? Like, you know, we have.

these conversations and tomorrow we. forget about it and move on." And I was. like, "Oh, okay. That's how you think. the rules go." And I was like, "Well, to. me I I don't want to tolerate that. anymore." We didn't talk for 2 years and. then all of a sudden now when we. connect, which isn't very often either, but now when we do, they know it can. never get to that level because there's. real consequences to that. >> doesn't always happen though, Jay. Sometimes people will go no contact for, you know, the protective, really healing. reasons. And if they are in the wake of the. person again, the person will say, "How. dare you?" Or "I can't believe you.

abandoned me." Or "Do you not know how. everything I did for you?". "How can you be so ungrateful?" In some. ways I tell folks, I say, "Can you. believe this?" And I said, "Yes, and if. anything, you just got a huge piece of. data.". And it is a the piece of data that. confirms that that decision, what you. observed, what you experienced, what you. saw here, was absolutely accurate. You. know, so I mean, you it it think all of. us doubt ourselves. We're like, "Maybe. I'm not seeing this right. Maybe I'm. overblowing this." That's why I in my.

book, and it's not you, I write I call. it going into the tiger's cage. I'm. like, "Go back in the tiger's cage. See. how that works out for you." If it's not. that big a deal, it's a little kitty. cat. Pet it and have a great time. But. if it's a tiger, it's going to it's. going to slash you up again. And so, if. it does, you're getting some good data. there that you did see this right. And. if anything, it really makes you a. greater steward of your own intuition. and your own body and your how you're. are you communicate within yourself. You. saw this. For a hundred reasons outside. of you, it felt uncomfortable. Like I.

said, I'm sharing my own experience. Most of it it's not my parents. I've. found my way. I mean, I've lost my mom. as I've told you, and I found my way, you know, my with my clunky way with my. dad. So, fine there. But when this other. relationship, for a long time I saw it. and I saw it and I saw it, but when it. came to the ultimate thing, I thought I was right all along. And. then, ironically, just in the last few. days, I was speaking with a. another family member who then gave. another piece of evidence, and I was. like, I was really right. Then I'm.

walking around pumped up like, I thought. I was so intuitively smart. It wasn't at. all ego. It was actually soothing. Like, you read this right, and it's okay to. keep yourself safe, but it is so hard, Jay, when the pressure of the world is. family is great, and estrangement is. bad, and I shudder to think how much. human potential we've lost by people who. couldn't give themselves, for a variety. of reasons, the permission to detach. from a harmful relationship, and just.

remained separated from themselves, and. silencing themselves, because they felt. that pressure to keep engaging with. something that didn't feel safe. That's. the real tragedy of this. >> I agree with you, and I think though. that it's those of us who have that. empathy and have that compassion, and. have that loving nature, that find it. the hardest to do. >> Yeah, of course. >> Because you think you're being. ungrateful, but every time you engage. with them, you always come back wounded. >> Right. >> That's right.

>> So, it's like, you think you're being. ungrateful, so you're like, no, I've got. to be grateful with this family member, this parent, whatever it may be, so I'm. going to stay connected. But then, every. time you're around them, you come back. crying, wounded, hurt, upset, whatever. it may be. >> Physically ill. >> Yeah. And then you recover for a few. days, and you think, oh no, I was just. overreacting, it was just a cat. And now. go back to the tiger's cage, as you. beautifully put. So many of us keep. going back to that, because it's, in. Thich Nhat Hanh's words, it's better to. have familiar pain than unfamiliar pain. And so, we'd rather have that familiar.

experience, and stay close to someone. who's bad for us, than have the. unfamiliar pain of I don't know what. life looks like if I don't talk to them. What did How does someone figure that. out, and actually take have the courage. to say, no, I need to do what's right. for me? >> This is where Gabor's words so ring for. me, is that there's no path free of. pain. I think people do believe Dre, one. of these paths is more pain free or. easy. So, they're both really, really. difficult. And familiar pain is tough. We talk about stuff like the trauma bond. and all of that. That's familiar pain.

We know how to navigate familiar pain, right? That's that's the we know we know. where the hazards are. We know exactly. what to look for and not it's terrible, but we know how to navigate it. The. unfamiliar pain, well, that's that's. terrifying. But, what people don't. always realize is that pain of not. abandoning, not silencing, not. suppressing yourself. Okay? You would. say that why would those things be. painful? Because my gosh, your true. self, that's some dangerous stuff you've. been told. How dare you? How dare you is. very much a connective tissue in a toxic.

relationship. Now though, what's. happening is a person is living more in. congruity with who they are, what. they're about. They're connecting with. healthier people. I mean, there are some. people out there who don't have healthy. ties in their life, which is painful, very painful. But, I want you to contrast what the. time with this person you're thinking of. going no contact with. and contrast that to spending time with. someone who is attuned and it's mutual. and it's reciprocal and it's safe. And. people say it's it's a categorically. different experiences, right? And why is.

that? Well, can you show up as your real. self? Of course I can. I can be me. I. don't feel judged. I don't feel shamed. Da da da da da da. Sometimes just seeing. that contrast, but then when people are. talking about the obligations, the. familiar pain as it were, it's also. understanding where those are, how they. they they act and really as tools of. social control. But, above all else I. the point I make is these paths both. hurt. Only one of them though does carry. the dividend that you will actually get. to live.

as an as your authentic self, which is going to. it is going to improve your health just. like that. There's such a sense of. sometimes if you've never experienced. safety, you don't even know what it. feels like. And I think sometimes when. you find a safe new relationship, whether it's a partner, a friend, a roommate, whatever it may be, and then. you all of a sudden go, "Oh, wait a. minute. This is what safety feels like.". And now you have the realization that. what you had before was unsafe. And.

that's when you come to the decision. that "Oh, I need to go no contact. because now I experience. what a relationship should look like, and I didn't know that before. >> And what gets so challenging is, unfortunately, like I said, people talk. too much, right? The people will then go. to the no contact person or system and. said, "I now saw this. This is what. healthy feels like." You know what they. always hear? "Oh, these people are just saying what you. want to hear. We are your family. We. tell you the truth. You don't like to. hear the truth, but we tell you that.

truth. They're not going to tell you. that. That's nothing nothing." They get. into this divide of Now the people were. harming them are saying even that's not. real. That's a gaslight. But there is. this sense, "We're telling you the. truth. The truth is painful. We're not. going to trick you. We don't want to you. to go out in the world and look. foolish." So, for people to get. themselves out of those places, the fact. that they're even entertaining ending. contact for some period of time, if not. forever, to me that's a quantum leap in. healing because they're even. entertaining the possibility that.

there's an option other than this. abusive mess that this relationship is. >> You're never announcing your no contact. You're not telling the other person. you're you're doing it yourself. Naturally, you might find that person. reaching out. >> Mhm. >> And that person might start saying. things like, "Why are you ignoring me? Why are you avoiding me? Why don't you. come over for a while?". And I feel like that's a weak point for. someone. >> Mhm. >> How does that person hold their ground. without getting into explaining and. getting lost in like what if you sound. as being helpful? >> It's so challenging, Jay, because if the.

person really doesn't respond, right? The person's reaching and saying, "Hey, why aren't you responding this and that. and other. The person who's chosen to end contact. will be accused of ghosting that person. And we view ghosting actually as. avoidance. And I do want to put in this. point about avoidance. Something I'm. hearing in sort of the pushback on. people who make the choice to go no. contact, people who are estranged from. their families, it keeps getting framed. as avoidance. Is there a subset of cases where it is. about avoidance? Sure. Like I said, that. 27% is a mucky number, if you will,

right? There are people who say, "I. don't want to have an uncomfortable. conversation, so I'm just going to do. this.". But in many, many people are going no. contact to feel safe, they've attempted. to have the uncomfortable conversation. dozens and dozens of times. And remember, the people who are the. harmers, who are uncomfortable, unsafe, whatever they are, they're likely not. aware, right? Or they've come they've. come up with a blame-shifted, you know, this isn't my problem, it's a your. problem thing. But they feel entitled to.

access to this person who's kind of. drifting away. If they completely block. contact, they will be called ghosting, to which I say, "Then let them say. you're ghosting." But I understand. that's hard. People are saying, "I don't. want to be characterized like that, cuz. that's not who I am. I wouldn't do this. in another relationship where this is. not happening, okay?". Whatever you say to that person is not. going to work. Some people will say, "Okay, I didn't want to announce it, but. I am going to say to them, like, this is. not healthy for me. This is not safe for. me." Personally, I have an example I'd.

gone through quite some time ago, and it. was it was it was more in the friendship. friendship realm. There was nothing that. could be said without it escalating into. something actually quite terrifying. And. it had to end, right? That person then. went on to terrible things to many, many. people I thought respected me, and just. said is it what we call sort of a smear. campaign. So, you had to tolerate that. So, if you didn't communicate the way. that person wanted, and it always ended. up in the same place, you have to. reconcile radical acceptance. That if. you attempt to say, "This has not felt.

safe. I don't feel like I I don't feel. like I can be myself." Oh, blah, blah, blah, psychobabble. Did your therapist. tell you to Since saying you're going to. come up against that wall, so you have. to be girded against that. Maybe you. have again tiger's cage. Maybe seeing. that one more time like this is why I. went no contact and you'll push to that. I'm not I'm not I'm just simply not. responding to this anymore. And I don't. like when people say I wish you well cuz. we don't always wish people well and I. think we pay karmically for all of that. hypocrisy. >> Oh, interesting.

>> You don't even desire I wish you well. cuz I'm thinking some of the people I've. gone no contact with I don't wish them. well. I don't wish them ill, but I don't. wish them well. So, I I I tell people. don't say I wish you well cuz you're. putting something out there in the. cosmos that just isn't vibing the right. way. You might just say, "Listen, I I. can't do this anymore." Now you have put. a punctuation mark on it. You're saying, "I'm exiting stage left. Like I'm out of. the scene at this point.". At that point, I will bet you any amount. of money, Jay Shetty, right now that. that person you've gone no contact with.

is going to paint a terrible picture of. you to the world. These things I almost. view it as like almost like a hero's. journey. All these bridges and fires you. have to cross like there's going to be a. smear campaign. There's going to be the. same old accusations. There's going to. be this. Yes, these are the terrible. crumbling bridges you have to cross. And. all of this was exactly what you were. afraid of. No pain-free path. This path. is every bit as painful as we knew it. was going to be. So, this should be. confirmation. You knew it would be. But. now you are no longer in contact with.

someone cuz it would forever be this. mess. There was a something I had read. where a person was taking a stance about. how "Oh, people are being too easy about. no contact. We're not giving people a. chance.". And they're giving the example of. somebody who has like really problematic. political views and makes you feel. really uncomfortable, but then said, "Oh, but they make great dessert. So, you can still have contact with them and. and on the dessert.". What? This person might be saying.

terrible, bigoted, or awful, or hurtful. things that have that have respect to. your child or to your someone dear to. you or what you do for a living, and. just because they can make a hell of an. apple pie, that to keep this kind of. mythology of family going, I don't buy. that. I think it's again, it's almost a. existing societal construct that family. means self-abandonment, and I don't. think it needs to be that. I do think. that people can again experiment with no. contact is how I I've always put it with. the clients and patients I work with,

and I've never seen anyone come to this. decision easily. Every single person. will say, grief, grief, grief, grief, grief, regret, grief, grief, grief, shame, grief, grief, guilt, grief, guilt, grief, and then peace. But my god, it was a hell of a path to. get there, and even still, they'll say, I'll see families, a person with their. parent, a person with their friend, a. person with whomever, and with I'll look. at that with envy because I don't have. that. These are not easy decisions, but. those punishers, sure, that's I guess.

it's a little easier for them, whatever. their journey is. And yes, there are. people where it's avoidance. Those are. great candidates for therapy to figure. out like cuz they're usually people who. are in that avoidance mode are very. scared. They're scared to make any move, and in a way it makes sense cuz every. move is going to be painful. >> It's almost like. if you choose no contact, it's grief, regret, guilt, shame, and if you choose to stay connected, it's pain, stress, pressure, fear. >> Right, but it's also, Jay, societal.

belonging. Oh, look at you. Oh, wow, it looks like. you guys had a great trip together. What. a great picture of all you together. Oh, and family's great. And you're now living this lie. I think. that eats you up, but that's societal. yay. That's a hell of a bomb. >> Yeah, it goes a long way. It's almost. like that societal validation covers. over some of those cracks, and that's. why we stay in those places that do so. much damage to us. >> The shame now is carried internally, right? Versus externally. Okay, I have.

nowhere to go on Thanksgiving, and I. don't have really a family anymore, and. the world is wondering like, "Hmm, I. wonder why they don't talk to their. family." Cuz their family seems to be. getting together, but they're not. You. have to endure all of that. That's also. an external shame, too. But the staying. in it, that's the internal shame. And. that internal shame will eat you up. alive. >> Whenever I have conversations like. these, and I get to with yourself who sits with. people and works through these.

challenges with them, and I get a glimpse into what people. struggle with and what's in their mind, it just expands your radius of. compassion. Like it just it just it just. makes me go, "Oh my gosh, like people. are dealing with so much." Like when you. have a family member who says, "I don't. want to come to something," usually. everyone in the family is just thinking, "Oh, well, they've been What's wrong. with them? Like why are they being. difficult for? Like what's the big deal? We're just all getting together." And. it's like you don't recognize that. there's something that obviously has. struck this person, and whether you.

think it's big or small, >> Mhm. >> it's valuable to them, and it feels like. the person who did the thing gets away. with it and never is reprimanded or made. accountable, and then everyone else. who's kind of an innocent bystander is. actually pointing fingers at the person. who's been wronged and going, "Come on, stop being difficult. It's just a family. dinner.". >> Mhm. >> Conversation like this help cuz and I. hope everyone's. getting what I'm saying is that if. you're not one of those people who's. doing the no contact or doing the. harming, and you're kind of in the. middle of just hearing your family go. through stuff, be that curious,

supportive person who goes, "Hey, what's. up? Like why don't you want to come?". Because that person has never had that. They've had people either tell them to. get over it or move on, or hey, it's. just a family dinner. >> And as I said to you, the the challenge. is that there's there's sort of two. different ways this happens, maybe even. three if you count the people who are. just avoidant, the people who are. punitive, and then of course the people. who've gone through this really. anguishing path. They'll say, "I. desperately wanted this to work out.". Every child wants nothing more than for. their parents to be their heroes, and.

they will turn themselves upside down. and inside out and craft false. narratives to turn the people in their. lives into heroes cuz that's how. children survive. But when the children. are harmed in those spaces or not. protected in those spaces, those those. narratives dog them into adulthood, and. that sometimes this is it. And I think. we should be having a much, much more. nuanced, balanced conversation about. what no contact is because right now. they're sort of like what's considered.

the societal right way. Not all families. are good. They really aren't. Many. families are harmful. That and and I I. wish we lived in that candy-coated world. where all families were safe. They sure. as hell are not. Many people listening. to this say, "No, they're not." And that. the complicated process someone goes. through. But ultimately for me as a psychologist, I can't tell someone to go no contact. It's a decision they make for. themselves. And that at best as as. therapists, we we hold their hand. Good.

therapy is when a person is making. choice for themselves as uncomfortable. as it is. Ultimately, the parent can't. swim for the child. The child has to. swim themselves. The child has to ride. the bike themselves. The client has to. feel that they've made this decision. themselves as terrified as they are and. live it. And I'm going to tell you now, I've to see in my practice, granted I. focus on a unique area of the. narcissistic relationship, the vast. majority of people I've seen make no. contact decisions from a place of harm.

reduction, safety, protection, all of. that. It has ended up quite well for. them. >> If they're thinking about no contact, would you encourage them to think about. a time frame rather than forever? >> Listen, when people use the word. forever, I always know I'm dealing with. someone very anxious, right? Because. it's a catastrophizing term. I don't. know what the hell forever is. So, I'm. saying let's let's let's take the word. forever out of our vocabulary. For the foreseeable future, you're not you're not going to have. contact with this person. And you can. see it sends a lightning there, right?

Like it's not like cuz forever feels so. so big. But for now when you're not. you're not going back and forth, you're. not responding and there is often a go. in the devices and you block the. capacity. I know in my case when I tried. to go no contact, then other family. members were getting in there trying to. contact me on behalf of that person. Then I had to go and block and then I. came to find out that you could contact. me on my computer when I thought I'd. blocked your number on my phone. It's. like that's a glitch. And then it's the. emails and then you start realizing, "Wow, there's a lot of ways to contact. me.". >> You have to meander. Sometimes people.

will send you a letter by mail, you. know. You become much more discerning on which. phone numbers you pick up. It's. It can feel like an onslaught for a. while. And many people with whom you go. no contact with, especially entitlement. is a big pattern. They feel entitled to. you. They feel entitled to an. explanation. And uh there's a part of me. that even when I'm hearing a client say. it, I'm thinking, "How interesting they. want an explanation that they couldn't. figure this out?". I have to tell you, Jay, and this is not. a frequent circumstance I've seen, but.

it does happen and I really feel for. people who are going through this. They. will say somebody went no contact with. me and I have no idea why they did it. They'll say literally, "I have no idea. One day, they just dropped out of my. life." I have a situation like that in. my own life where someone went no. contact with me and we had one last. weird conversation. where literally it was, "You are never to get into touch with me. again. How could you have done this? I. told you not to do the what the thing I.

did.". >> They said it to you. >> Yeah. I can literally tell you the I was. on the 10 freeway. Like it's so clear to. me cuz it was such an destabilizing. conversation. And I never heard from them again. It's what is now we're in 2026? It was. at least 2014. And this was a person I. was tight with, right? I will go to my. grave not knowing what exactly happened. I have no doubt that this person has a. very clearly constructed. >> But that doesn't make you a narcissist, yeah.

>> I know it I don't think I'm [laughter]. in though. That's up for debate, I'm. sure by some people, maybe by her even. >> Yeah. That's what's so interesting, right? Like it's like how do you know. whether the story you're crafting about. someone is true or not? Because it's. true in your head. >> I'll be frank with you. Jay, if for this person if they felt my. life feels safer, better, stronger. without Ramani in it, then I say go with. God.

To me, the only win I think in the world. is that people feel safe in their bodies. and their psyche keys and their souls. and they can express themselves. The. thing I'll never understand what I did, right? I have a hint of it, but it. seemed like a strange thing to be upset. about and I knew there was other things. happening in this person's life. Sadly, subsequently I came to find out that. this person's life had fallen apart in. many ways. So they might have had some. sort of I don't know some other issues. going on. But I also don't think I can. be so superior and say, "Oh, maybe she. had a breakdown." Maybe I did do. something that offended her.

>> Yeah. >> I don't understand it, which probably. makes her think I'm an even worse. person. So I I have no doubt many people. have had the experience of someone just. cutting it cutting them out. And I think. that's muddied this conversation because. there's people out there you and I are. both saying here. We've had someone just. poof, disappear and and feel very. absolutely justified in their reason for. not being in touch with us. People hear this conversation, they say, "No, people don't just get to disappear. from our lives." And I'm like, "Well, apparently they do.".

>> Yeah. >> And then we have to reckon with what. that meant and maybe look inward and it. did for me personally. I have to say I. looked inward quite a bit and say. what do I need to monitor about myself? Like cuz I kind of understood what the. person was saying, but I also kind of. didn't. So, I don't think I was changed. substantially as a person, but it was. always a bit of a head-scratcher and it. will always be a head-scratcher. >> When do you know it's time to cut off a. toxic family member? >> I think it's different for everyone, Jay. I don't know that there's a moment. of knowing.

I will say in my particular case there. was an episode that happened. A thing. happened that was so reprehensible, but. very frankly, if that reprehensible thing had happened. without the context that led up to it, I. wouldn't have gone no contact. >> Totally. Yeah, yeah. >> So, it wasn't the one event. It was the. accumulation and this event kind of. cemented that all those data points up. till then were was in fact the thing. All the times I tried to say, "Maybe. not. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not.". Oh, definitely. It may be an event that.

was preceded by a lot of other proximate. events that felt this way. It may be that you literally feel like. you're getting sick. I would also say, Jay, people have to pay attention to. what I call the natural experiment. The. natural experiment happens when. something intervenes. and we don't have contact with them. Who. knows why? Life goes on and one day you. lift your head and say, "I haven't. talked to them for 6 months. and that was actually This has been This. has been really nice.". And you notice the difference in your.

life. I'll even give you a small. example. It was a holiday of some kind, I don't know, Thanksgiving or Christmas, something like this. And the very, very. problematic person in the family system. was being a little bit petulant and. tantrumy and decided not to come to the. main event. I I was like a dinner or. something. And some of the family members were sad. They're like, "No, no, you should come.". And another family member who had. ultimately been the person responsible, I think, for getting them right And I. said, "They said they don't want to. come, and let's honor that wish." And.

they said, "No problem. Okay, you don't. have to come.". They all got together. The group that. got together had the most magnificent. time. Two of them noticed, like, "This is. amazing." Like. and they noticed it was simply. that person not being present. It didn't necessarily lead to no. contact, but my point about the natural. experiment is sometimes the world comes. together to create a circumstance. and you see the Wow, when they weren't. at the wedding, it was so much easier. When they weren't with at the dinner, it.

was so much easier. When I didn't have. to include them in the decision, it went. like clockwork. You see the differences. when this person isn't around. But also, by being apart from them, you might say, "It's funny, I don't feel exhausted when. I wake up anymore. My stomach isn't. hurting me. I'm not getting migraines as. much." You may even literally have. changes in your physiology as this. stress goes away. You might find that. you're sharper at work.

But I don't know that there's ever a. moment I think that there is often an. episode that makes you say, "Oh, hell. no." It's really only people who are. more manipulative and petulant and. really immature. that would end it over one episode. Here's the rub though. Here's the. problem. Let's say the big event happens, and. that's when you say, "I'm not I'm not. going to be in contact with them. anymore." Everyone around you thinks. it's just the one event. They don't realize it was a trajectory.

of stuff. They'll say, "Oh, come on now. You're going to go no contact with. someone over one thing?" And they're not. able to hear that No, it actually was. about 1,500 things. But this was the. This was like It's like the closet rod. I always use that analogy. There's one. last piece of clothing you put on that. closet rod, and it all collapses. It's. not cuz that was a heavy piece of. clothing. It was just the last piece. that that rod could hold. >> That is the way to think about it. When. I think about it in my life, it's always. been that way. And I I liked your almost. step ladder of maybe not, maybe not,

maybe not, okay, definitely. Like that's. the kind of thought process that a. rational human being goes through. It's. like, "No, I don't think it is. No, I'm. giving them grace." And then it's like, "Oh, no, okay, I get it now.". >> Uh-huh. >> What do you say to the people that say, "But they're your family.". >> This is a challenging question because. it's culture. I'm South Asian from very. traditional Indian family. I work with a. lot of South Asian clients, a lot of. Malaysian clients, a lot of client. Latino clients like where family is like. family. It's capital F, it's a blood. thicker than water construct.

Well, we've we've hit it from different. directions. You know, one of which is. it's really luck who your family is. This idea that somehow this group of. people Imagine you get on an airplane. flight. Like all these people supposed. to be your best friends? It's luck that. you walked on that one you bought that. ticket not the other. No. These are just. people I'm going to be with the next 5. hours and then bye. I'm not going to see. you again. It is a bit of a luck and. some people have bad luck. You you it's. it's sort of a random sequence. But the. issue of family, I think more than. anything it's to hold space for that. To.

not say, "Oh, who cares if they're a. family?" They are your family and this. construct matters. For some people it's. a core value. For other people it's been. an organizing element for them. For many. people it's the idea if you're not part. of a family system, you're actually. deeply unsafe. And so if you're unsafe. without a family system and if your. family system is unsafe, again, you're. sort of in this damned if you do, damned. if you don't kind of catch-22. So it's. to hold space, empathy, awareness that. family does matter, making this decision. all the more difficult. And then it's.

paying attention to how it you know, how. are you those differences, those natural. experiments? How are you feeling when. you're not with them? I never hold a no. contact agenda for any human being on. the planet. I really don't. I'm like, "You're going to get there or never get. there on your own time. When that. pressure gets lifted for a person, it. opens up a lot more decision-making. because then they can say, "Yes, this is. family and yes, this is harmful.". But the very first time a person's able. to look at another human being, family.

member or not, and recognize that. "I don't feel safe with them." Meaning, "I don't feel like I can show up as. myself. I have to be walking on. eggshells around them. I am happy when. they're gone. I'm relieved when they're. gone.". Once you actually have that own say. words to yourself, maybe not to anyone. else, it opens up something different in. you because now you're willing to. acknowledge that. Like it's it's so. you're caring for yourself by. acknowledging something doesn't feel. good. Because I think that if we go too.

quickly with like, "Oh my gosh, they're. right. They're they're my family." We're. going too quickly. It's just sitting. with this doesn't feel good. That's step. one. And then you're going to give yourself. permission to feel that. And then over. time, you will recognize that yes, they are. family and they're unsafe. More than one. thing can be true at the same time. >> Yeah. >> And how to navigate why there are all. these things true at the same time. How. do you make a decision that works for. you? And like it can be a stop-start. You go out of contact for a little. while. You find that too difficult. You.

have children. You want them to meet. some members of the family. You're back. in contact again. And it kind of again, there there can be an ebb and flow to. it. But it's a very, very complicated. conversation for many people in many. parts of the world, no contact is simply. not an option. And so, I always say that. you can then it's a concept I wrote. about in the book too called soul. distancing. That your physical body can. be present and you can nod politely and. you can talk about the weather and you.

can say, "What a nice dress you have.". But that most important part of. yourself, you don't have to abandon it. You can actually be a really protective. custodian. "How are you doing? What's. new with you?" "Not much. Yeah, I get. up, I go to work, everything's fine. You. can really do that all the while being. consciously aware of like, oh, you don't. get to look into this. This isn't safe. But so you can find those ways to. navigate, but this only works, only. works if you take care of yourself, which means you prepare yourself ahead. of time, you give yourself rest after.

time, you maintain healthy connected. spaces in your life, you have meaningful. and purposeful activities in your life. You have to live give yourself. permission to live a whole life if. you're going to keep participating in. those spaces. I view it as a almost like. a spiritual form of no contact. Like, you don't get to be with all of me. >> Yeah. >> And I think that can be one way people. can navigate these family spaces. But. for those who really did feel like. physically violated in their family. spaces, that may not be enough. And.

sometimes it's it's the that person who. goes no contact is the first person who. breaks an intergenerational cycle, too. They may be the most powerful warrior in. that system enough is enough. And that. may sometimes be, for example, I've seen. this in family systems where people came. out about their sexuality, [snorts]. about gender, and they faced a lot of. pushback and they're like, you would. rather I do not live in accordance with. who I am, and that process of coming out. is where people will lose people, and. then that concept of chosen family, which the LGBTQ community, that was.

their term where so many people came out. and were rejected and hurt and. abandoned. And so I think that there's. something to listen to that sometimes at. those moments of absolutely a person. who goes through that saying, this is. who I am, and they're told, oh well, we're not going to love you, that's. another process we can watch from, and. many people painfully having to go no. contact at those times, too. >> Yeah, I was going to ask you, what do. you do if you can't go no contact? And. you answered some of the options there. because I always talk to people that I.

love the soul distancing idea, and I. often talk to people about the idea of. for every one person in your life that. is like that, if you can't get away from. them, make sure there's three other. people that are people you do open your. soul to, that you. can open your heart to, that you can be. authentic with, because. yes, I appreciate that there may be a. family member that you can't do that. around, but you can choose three other. people, friends who become family, that. you allow yourself to be yourself. around, and that. outweighs that that three to one ratio.

kind of helps with the pressure of that. one person. >> And it's challenging, you know, because. if you look at all the great trauma. writers out there, Judith Herman, you. know, Gabor, all of them, trauma that. happens in relationship can only be. healed in relationship. And whether that. relationship is therapy, whether that. relationship is trusted friends, this is. not a walk you can walk alone. People. have to become safe again. >> Yeah. >> And that's one of the challenges of. having to remain in contact with someone. harmful. People remain unsafe, so you do.

need counterweights to that. And it is. hard, because once a person's been. through harm, through a family, through. people who should have been trusted, what gets lost is discernment, it's a. sense of nobody can be trusted, or I. don't know how to trust people, and. above all else, I can't trust myself. And that can make it hard to build. healthy social contacts outside of a. system where you're feeling compelled. that maybe I should go no contact, but I. can't. But I really think though part of. this is because we shame people who go. no contact, instead of really hearing.

their story, and often how painful it. is, and even yes, sometimes it's a. mystery, and an understanding that. sometimes yes, it's punitive, but to. understand the backstory on it, so then. we can think about it more clearly. >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you a couple of. quick segments on what no contact is and. what it isn't. So, what's the difference. between no contact and having a fallout? >> Having a fallout might be that they go. for a little while not talking to each. other, because they did have a big. conflict, and it's almost like they need. to regulate, they need to reintegrate,

but there's an understanding that you. will come back together when cooler. heads prevail, right? Whereas no contact. tends to be something that's coming more. from one person. Generally again, the. kind of protective no contact I'm. talking about, it's definitely something. where it's somebody who's been through. is trying to protect themself. It's. usually a very one person in a. relationship. The other person may not. be experiencing that need at all. It's. really the person being harmed. And. whereas a fallout is usually a a product. of a conflict where people are trying to.

regulate and find a way to talk about. it. That's That feels different to me. >> What's the difference between going no. contact and silent treatment? >> Ah, so the silent Oh, the almighty. silent treatment. Silent treatment is a. is is aggression. You know, we don't think of it that way, but it really is. Some people argue that. people do the silent treatment because. they're so overwhelmed by an. interpersonal situation that they shut. down. That's not how I understand the silent. treatment. Silent treatment is typically. a tactic. You're not doing what I want?

I'm not going to talk to you. I mean, as. far as like you could be dinner with a. group and say, "Could you ask Jay to pass the sugar to. me?" You know, it's that you know, it I. am not going to you're not going to get. a response from me. It's manipulative. cuz what it typically does, especially. in things like family systems, is it. results in the win for the silent. treatment person is the other person. breaks. And often may even apologize. just to keep the communication. happening. In silent treatment, the. person's often still very present in.

your life. They're like in the same. house or in the same office or coming to. the same things. They're just not. talking to you. >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And and. what's the difference between no contact. and then not talking to someone using it. as leverage? Or is that the same as. >> that's like the that's the same as. silent treatment. Yes, it's silent. treatment. Yes, it's there's something. coercive about it. And many people say, especially when their parents use the. silent treatment, young people will say. when they were a child, their mother or. their father would use no contact and. they would say, "I wish they screamed at. me because at least they were looking at.

me but and they would share these. heartbreaking stories of how they would. leave their parents notes saying, 'I. will do anything you ask. I'll do. anything else.'" And what is that parent. doing? They're literally shaping this. child to be fully subjugated. The child. is so terrified of the abandonment of. silent treatment. And many people. experience the silent treatment as an. abandonment that we almost get trained. to capitulate to a harmful person who. realizes the powerful quality of that. weaponry and other people don't notice. it. But when someone's screaming at.

someone, we know that's all that's all. right. But when someone's silent. treatmenting, again with kids, it is a. devastating approach with kids cuz the. child feels so abandoned which brings up. so much terror for them. >> Are we getting better at setting. boundaries or are we losing our ability. to repair relationships? >> We're getting worse at our ability to. repair. Boundaries is a complicated. conversation to me. because of especially the space I work. in. When you try to set a boundary, for. example, in a narcissistic relationship,

it's like self-harm at that point, right? You're almost I always say to. people, "When you try to set a boundary. with a narcissistic person, you've. actually just harmed yourself cuz you've. told them what upsets you.". >> Yeah. So you've given [clears throat]. them the playbook. Do this and now I'm. really going to get upset. Don't do. that. >> That's so dangerous. >> To me, boundary setting is a very. internal process. Once you understand. how these relationships work, to. understand how much time you can endure. this for, what are your no-fly zones? If. this comes up or they do this and that's. my sign to sort of disengage, step back, and exit cuz there's really no way to.

healthfully communicate about this, especially with someone who's trying to. bait you. But I have to say in the same. breath, we're also not that good at. repair. I think there's a lot of ego in. the world right now. I got to make my. point. I've got to be right. I don't I. think platforms like social media. haven't helped like people want to be. right. And I also think part of it this. is one of my personal Dr. Romani. theories. I don't know if it's true, but. I'm going to with it, is that the. world's so litigious, especially in the. United States. Everyone's afraid of. being sued, so you don't want to admit. you did anything wrong. If you admit, well then, you see? So, that seeps into.

the ground water of interpersonal. relationships. Admit nothing. You know, you don't That puts you on your back. foot. You lose your power. As soon as. you bring the word power into a. relationship, it's no longer about love. >> Mhm. >> You know, that's it. You've lost the. love part of it. That love and power. don't get to go in the same sentence. I. think that because of this, this need to. be right, the challenges with. accountability. In fact, I think people. feeling. When people have even been hurt, they. want to get power, right? That's how. they feel safe again. So, all of those. things mean that we are really bad at. repair, cuz the first part of repair is.

to be accountable, and people aren't. good at being accountable. And some. people are afraid if they are. accountable, they'll be rejected. >> Yes. >> So, there's so many other dynamics kind. of woven in there that I think we're. terrible at repair. And when we can do. it, it's actually profoundly, profoundly powerful. And I again, I'm. saying I I screwed up with a friend back. in the summer when I was going through. the worst time of my life, I didn't have. no right to speak like that. I am so.

sorry. I'm not even And And the other. part of it, repair, we were talking. about before, you can't make excuses. So, you I could have easily said, I did. this cuz of this, this, and this. You. may get to that at some point, but that. can't be part of the apology. I'm so. sorry I spoke to you in a way that you. did not deserve. I am so sorry I hurt. you. And I haven't done it since. So, in. that way, that repair has worked for us. And she said, she was smart enough to. say, "You're going through the worst. time of your life. I don't expect you to. be graceful." So, you see, it's a dance.

You have both players have to be in it. That's a healthy relationship. But. healthy relationships have ruptures. We. repaired. Now, it's even It's Now, we. can trust each other even more is the. point. So, I think that the issue is we just don't. learn. I think actually little kids are. better at repair than anyone. They end. school and they're taught like. >> [snorts]. >> you can't just take the the chalk from. from him and you have to say I did take. the chalk roughly and then the child. will parrot the teacher. Somewhere. around puberty we lose it. And then it.

it floats into ego. >> I think the biggest mistake we make in. relationships is we think we can cut. someone off, but the real reason is. because we don't want to have a. difficult conversation. >> Sometimes. Sometimes. >> we don't want to have the tough. conversation and I'm not talking about. all the established reasons we've talked. about and we know that people don't do. no contact in a flippant way, but. sometimes we've chosen not to repair. because we just don't want to have a. difficult. >> and there's the avoidance. That's that.

avoidance piece and I think that's why. that avoidance piece is often overlaid. on the no contact conversation. Because that is the case. I think. they're two different issues, but I do. think that in some cases people say this. is so uncomfortable for me. I'm willing to lose this relationship. than to feel this uncomfortable. And that's a tragedy because then you're. missing the end the bounty of human. experience, but. listen, I can understand it though for. people who grew up in spaces where. conflict was downright dangerous, people. were brandishing firearms or yelling or.

screaming or there's domestic violence. I can easily understand where that. avoidance comes from and then that. becomes really deep-seated trauma. informed work on what conflict isn't. always terrifying, but to debride that. from how the body hurts it from it. You. it takes a minute. >> Yeah. Have you ever experienced people who've. gone no contact and then experienced a. lot of grief and regret? >> People who go no contact, especially if. there's not a lot of you know, clanging. and yelling and I'm not I'm never going.

to not talking to you anymore. So. there's no clear demarcation point. Most. cases I'm not hearing this. I'm not. hearing people six months in saying in. fact they're saying. >> I feel better. >> I'm relieved. I'm really relieved. You. know, it's pretty rare. More what I've. heard more of Jay is people have gone no. contact and someone gets sick. Or is dying. And their bigger question is. I don't get a second chance at this. Am. I going to regret not making an attempt. at a goodbye? No one can answer that question for you, but you're right. You do only have one. crack at this. And in those cases, some.

people have rolled up to check in and. say their goodbyes and the person who. was dying was just as ordinary and mean. as ever. And you know what people said, they said, "I wasn't upset. In many. ways, I listened to my heart. I showed. up and it only confirmed the decision I. made for the last 20 years.". >> [snorts]. >> In some cases, there is a moment, there's a connective moment. I think. that's pretty rare, you know, that there. is I'm so sorry for everything I did. We. people want the deathbed confession. It's pretty rare in these cases. Sometimes people go expecting nothing.

but to say, "I can't do this again, so. at least let me show up." But by and. large, once people get to that initial. can I I can By the time people really. make the protective no contact decision, they have been harmed so many ways that. it is relief. It's relief. >> Flipping the roles, if you're the person who's been cut off. and you genuinely want to repair the. relationship and now recognize that. you've. made mistakes,

what's the right way to go about it? >> We can't attach our actions to outcomes, meaning that. you may say, "I really want to let them. know. I see everything I did. I and I'll do it all the right ways. Don't excuse. Don't defend yourself." Do. you know all do it right like take. accountability. Figure out a way to get it to that. person, whatever that may be. And then that's it. It's almost like. you've put something, you've you know, thrown a feather to the universe and you. just don't know where it's going to.

land. You definitely don't want to be. insistent. You don't want to be feel. entitled to a response. You don't want. to keep attempting to reach the person. through different ways and haranguing. them. That's That's just going to. re-perpetuate. the whole problem that there was. initially. But, I mean, you can find. that way to get the communication out. there and see how it lands. And you know. what? Then this is the hardest thing. that can happen as part of the human. experience. A person may receive that. They may even feel at peace from hearing.

that, and they may never tell you. >> Mhm. >> You have to keep it real that maybe all. you've done is try to put that repair in. the world, and maybe the net result of. that is you've relieved something in. someone else, but you may not ever be. privy to that. >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> No. You know how I feel about that. Hell no. And I'm so tired of this fetishization. of forgiveness. There's a. voluminous psychological literature, spiritual literature, that shows it's.

good. But then there's other studies on the. shelf that people don't always pull off. that show that when forgiveness is. repeatedly offered in situations where. the harmful behavior is repeated, the. forgiver actually experiences negative. psychological consequences. I think the challenges with forgiveness. is people do it from a place of fear. When they do it from a place of being. shamed, you'll see in spiritual. communities all the time, "What is wrong.

with you? You're dark-hearted. How dare. you don't forgive? It will lighten you.". Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. I have seen people heal brilliantly. without forgiving, and if anything, they'd feel like forgiving this person. feels like one more form of. self-abandonment. Cuz the fact is, Jay, in many cases of trauma, abuse, relational trauma, what happened. has changed that they the person being. harmed, their emotional DNA forever. It is a heavy burden that has to be.

carried that affects how a person trusts. the world, how they go into future. relationships, how they even trust. themselves. It's a effing legacy that a. person carries their whole lives. That may not always be forgivable. And. forgiving someone is not going to press. the accelerator on healing. Some people. will say, "I don't even know that I ever forgave. them. I'm now indifferent to the whole. thing. I've done my work. I'm in a. different place. Forgive? Maybe, maybe. not." And I think one of the challenges. is, cuz I've had this debate with these.

people. They say, "I think you and I are. I think you are talking about. forgiveness, but we're not using the. same word.". One of the dictionary definition of. forgiveness is to cease to feel. resentment. >> Mhm. >> I don't know how many people who forgive. actually have ceased to feel resentment. I don't. >> Mhm. >> I I can think of a handful of. relationships in my life where the wrong. the wronging changed me forever. Changed me forever. I go through the world differently. I don't forgive that. I will I I resent that. I resent how I.

still sometimes. have to go through the world feel unsafe. in the world. No. And I'm healing just fine. And I and I've seen I I countless. clients have said, "That moment of you. and some other author saying, we don't. need to forgive, was an absolute pivot. point." Because what happens when you. make it forgiveness, all your damn work. is going into forgiving a perpetrator. instead of doing the healing work inside. yourself. You get there, don't get there. You can. heal if you forgive, you can heal if you. don't forgive. But if it's performative.

and it's being done in the name of. self-abandonment, it is going to set you. back. >> When it all comes down to like, "Yeah, forgive them and move on and heal." And. like you said, it feels it can feel too. early, it can feel too forced, it can. feel too. holier-than-thou. Like, I talk about it. all the time with. some things I've been wronged with where. I'm like, I was recently in India with. my spiritual teacher and I was speaking. before where was speaking to a group of. people. And [snorts]. I quoted him in something I'd learned.

from him. And then he very expertly referenced it. but then redefined it on stage without. making me feel bad about myself, which. is very sweet of him. But and he's so. learned. He's, you know, mid-70s and you know, he's been a monk. for like 50 years or something. So. has has more wisdom than I could ever. even try to gather, but also has this. beautiful way of helping me in the. moment without but So I always thought. that spiritual gratitude was this idea. that you had to be grateful for. everything that happened to you. And I.

always struggled with that idea because. I couldn't and and I would try and I. really pushed myself and I would do the. spiritual work and I'd be like, I can't. be grateful for that. Like that doesn't. make any sense. I would wonder why I. would struggle with it and sometimes you. can beat yourself up spiritually about. it. You can feel like you're not good. enough in the community, whatever it may. be. He said, you don't have to be grateful. for everything that happened to you. You can only be grateful for what you. have left after what happened to you. And that slight adjustment has like. changed my I'm like, oh, of course that.

makes sense. >> Yes. >> I can be grateful for the fact that. after that happened to me, I'm still. alive and breathing. I've got this, I've. got that. I don't have to be grateful. >> for the experience. >> for the experience of the event. >> Yes. Correct. Correct. >> it sounds like common sense when you say. it, but to me it was like a remarkable. and I only learned this like 3 months. ago. And it's like light bulb moment. I. was like, oh, wow, like I've just been. trying to walk down the wrong road. And. then that's how I feel about. forgiveness. Like forgiveness is this. idea of like you at one point will feel. so much love for this person and you're. like completely like and I'm like, I'm.

not sure that Well, I've never seen it. I would love It's a beautiful idea. It's. a beautiful concept. But I've never seen. it as love. Maybe someone even gets to. the point of neutrality. Maybe. But love. for that person, like that's God level. stuff and you know, >> We are mere mortals, right? And I think. that that there is I think that the. challenge is and I've seen this with. people, people who are survivors of. domestic assault, sexual assault, emotional abuse. No, absolutely not. Because you know why? They need to encode within themselves.

that this all of the this that that. person was is harmful. Cuz that's how we. as human beings can be safer, but still. be able to find safety in other human. beings. To When I tell you what a razor's edge. that is to balance on, this is why. trauma healing is so challenging. But. finding love in harmful experiences, no. Yes, love for yourself that you were so. strong that you could get up and and get. out of bed the next morning. That's what. I tell my clients, like, you got out of. bed today. Like, go you. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Uh Dr. Romany, I want to end with some. real-life scenarios that we got sent in. So, we're going to get your reactions to. these. So, a parent says, "I have no idea why my. child stopped talking to me, even though. there were years of conflict.". Why do some parents genuinely believe. this? And what should the child do if. the parent really has no idea why they. went no contact? >> And this is from the the person asking. this is the parent. >> Uh the person asking this. is No, it's it's the person who's gone. no contact because they're asking why do.

some parents genuinely believe this? And. what should the child do if the parent. really has no idea why they go no. contact? >> So, remember what I was saying before is. that this idea is that there are people. out there who say, "I genuinely don't. know." And I think they genuinely do. And I think in other versions, they. can't It's not they generally can't, they generally won't. They won't see. what it is, right? And whether they think that their simple. apology should have been fine or they. should be forgiven all their their. transgressions, whatever it may be. The challenge for an adult, and I'm.

assuming this is an adult child, the. challenge for an adult child in one of. these situations. is that the temptation is to sit down. and lay out a reckoning of everything. this parent did wrong. It's going to get. absolutely nowhere. And I think that in. a situation like that where it's very. clear. that the transgressions are many and. discernible. That the fact that they can't see it is. probably a contributor to why you've. gone no contact because people can mess. up as I've been saying and say that was.

not cool. If the parent had said I am so. sorry we are no contact and I fully. understand how years of da da da da da. da have resulted in this. I'd really. like to redouble my efforts to make. change in these spaces because I miss. you. That's a different conversation. This parent's like I don't get this. If. they don't get this, you ain't going to. be the one to turn on the lights. >> Well said. Really helpful to just know. where. you're likely to stand. Okay, someone. goes no contact with one parent and. suddenly siblings, aunts, even.

grandparents start pressuring them to. fix it. How should someone handle that. kind of family backlash? >> This is a tough one because this is what. I'm saying. You It's very difficult to. isolate and go no contact with just one. family member, especially if the family. system is is relatively close-linked. Within that group of grandmothers and. aunts and siblings and all of that, even. that group is heterogeneous. Some of. those folks are safer and maybe more. psychologically aware than others. If. there's even one person in that group. you feel that you could actually have a.

safe conversation with without it. becoming again a laundry list, but. rather say. after years of this this. I don't feel safe and I have found that. I I just I can't do it anymore and maybe. give a sprinkling of reasons and so this. was not this was not a decision I came. to easily. Did all the things we've. talked about. So please understand where I'm coming. with this and I'm the first to. understand how difficult and. inconvenient and everything this is for. everyone. I love you dearly. I didn't.

want that, but I also can't do this. All. right? Hopefully there's one person. Here's where we go. There's no pain-free. path. There's going to be no version of. this where everyone in the family signs. off on it. There's just it just doesn't. happen that way. So, if you could have. that one person who can say. even one person who bears witness and. gets it, even if it's still chaotic, you. might still you may feel a little less. like you're losing your mind and at. least feel heard, but I I think that. that pressure you have to have sort of.

few stock answers like, "I hear you. I. love you and I understand why this is. hard for you, but please also understand. why this would be hard for me. I can't I. can't do this, but say I I thank you for. reaching out and I get it and I know. this is hard." You can give an empathic. response. The thing I would discourage. people from doing is turning this into a. battle every time. >> Okay, well said. All right, this one. A. client says, "My parent was emotionally. harmful, but they also paid for my. school and helped me financially. How. should they decide if they should go no.

contact?". >> Okay, money don't buy emotional. indulgences, folks. They don't. And many. many unhealthy family systems will say, "We paid for school. We helped you with. rent. We bought you a car." So, they're. putting a dollar value. So, like, apparently if you spend $100,000 that. buys you 20 years of abuse, 15 years of. gaslighting? No. I think that that transactional model is. something that yes, they again, more. than one thing can be true at the same. time. They did pay your tuition and.

their behavior is psychologically. unhealthy and doing harm to you and both. those things are true and you don't owe. them anything. Listen, Jay, I've been. doing this work long enough that I have. seen parents when their kids go no. contact, they sent their kids a bill, itemized. Pages and pages of invoices. This is. what your this cost. This is what that. cost. This is what your the health. insurance that we paid for you. One case it was a person I don't even. know what they did to anger their. parents, but they did you know, you were. distancing themselves and it came from a. lawyer's office in a very itemized way.

All of it was broken down. Like it was. like tuition cost, the health insurance. that they had to carry when they were a. kid costs. They had every little thing. detailed and like helped to give them. for a down payment, whatever. And there. was the bill. And they said, you can. work with our attorney's office on an on. a low interest payment plan. >> Wow. >> I I mean, it was unenforceable, as you. could imagine. But can you imagine? So, I think that it is to understand that. more than one thing can be true. The to.

be a parent is to have financial. responsibility. They paid for those. things and they're harmful. The It It is. not It's not a transaction. >> Have you experienced the opposite in. your office where. kids are somewhat taking advantage of. their parents or try or you have a you. have experienced that before? >> Absolutely. And here's when we see, especially in an emerging adult, especially who has narcissistic patterns. and feels owed something. So, what. they'll say is, my parents were. terrible. And maybe the parents weren't. great and say, they're going to pay for. it. Okay, so I'm going to uh willingly.

take financial advantage. When they. offer me stuff, I'm going to take it cuz. at least it feels like reparation to. them. It's a really unhealthy dynamic, which is an incredibly unhealthy. psychological dynamic cuz it's not going. to address the wound. But if it is And. listen, some people might do it from a. place of deep deep hurt of saying, I. need to get something out of this. And. at least if I have some money so I can. secure a safe place to say, I'll feel. more whole. But they often don't feel. more whole. If anything, they'll say, okay, at least I have a place to live. But it still came at this cost. And if. anything, it keeps that trauma-bonded.

sense of, well, now I owe them cuz I. took their money. >> Someone goes no contact, then finds out. their parent is sick or dying. How do. you decide whether breaking no contact. is worth it? >> This is a decision you're largely making. for yourself because it's unless you're. some magical physician, you're not going. to probably change the course of things. for them. And I tell people, whatever decision you. make, have realistic expectations. You're probably not going to have some. cinematic moment of forgiveness. You may. very well get a moment of anger. You.

could potentially get a moment of. indifference. You may have a moment of. tremendous guilt and grief of how has it. come to this? It's always going to be. unpleasant. There is no right answer, but there's really a short-term to do. what needs to be done. And I don't know. that there is a right answer. For some. people say, "I ended contact with this. parent a long time ago. We've not been. in each other's lives. This feels. performative to me. They're going to. pass. They could have easily passed. without me knowing it." And in some. cases, people say, "I'm going to go.

because I still have to live a life. after this." And yes, it would have. taken a different path, but they say to. be my my whole self, I at least want to. say goodbye as imperfect as this was. I. just tell people it's very hard to do. things free of expectations, but the. less you're going in with a narrative. and a sense that what if it goes this. way, what if it It's going to go the way. it goes, but the idea that you're going. to get some kind like I said, deathbed. confession, working through is probably. quite unlikely. And to be very clear in. what your motivations are going in. And.

because again, there is no right answer, no pain-free path. >> Okay, two more. Last two. After months of silence, a narcissistic. parent suddenly becomes loving, generous, and attentive. How can you. tell if it's worth to let them back in? How would you encourage someone to stay. strong in their boundary or think about. that in general? >> Yeah, I think that in a case like that. is get away from the idea of games games. playing and get more into what feels. right and safe to you because again, you. know what the game's going to be. If you. say no, oh my gosh, I'm being so nice to.

you. Nothing's ever enough for you. If. you say yes, you might get pulled back. into the system. That's why I'm saying any period of no. contact should be a time of healing. Cuz. if they do come back and you've done. your work. and then they are nicey-nice and you're. having realistic expectations about it, and then that nicey-nice starts. descending into manipulative. manipulative, you're able to say, "Here. we go again." And I can disengage again. Cuz I think the challenge with trauma. bonded relationships is like all the.

lights go on immediately and we we're. right back into that really stuck, self-blaming, self-abandoning space. But. if we can say, "I'm going to show up. here as my whole self. I know that they can't handle hearing. anything about me, so I won't. They're. going to be nicey-nice and they'll keep. I'll keep it superficial." And some. people might exactly what as we said, sometimes no contact can go into this. sort of new wave of the relationship, which is much more superficial, sort of. cordial, with zero expectations, and you. kind of get in and you get out. It's. sort of like a meet and greet at that.

point. And that might be your parents. might just like the optics of saying, "Look, I got together with my kid." And. you then might have come to a more. reconciled place of it. I just want. people to get away from the whole magic. kind of Hallmark moment that it's all. going to be perfect and work its way. out. The fairy tale is not likely to. happen. You wouldn't have gone no. contact for no reason. That happened for. a reason. >> Mhm. Okay, final one. Someone who's no. contact feels pressured to invite a. narcissistic parent to a wedding or let.

them see a new baby. What should. actually guide that decision? >> What feels safe to you? How do you want. to preserve that day? How do you want to. preserve this moment? What How do you. want to move forward? But because it's. your day, it's your wedding day, it's. your baby. These are your moments and. there may be a What gets complicated is, for example, there's a sibling who's or grandparent. who desperately wants this person at the. wedding and you very fond of the. sibling, you're very fond of that. grandparent. A wedding's two people. I.

think there's a meaningful conversation. that should happen between the two. people getting married. The baby has two. parents. That should be a meaningful. conversation between those two people. with the key stakeholders in this entire. experience. So, as I keep bringing it. back to the sense of safety and. authenticity. Some people will say, I I hope I never get married again, so I. wouldn't I may want this person here, but I have to be realistic about what. this looks like. I don't want them to. have a role in this day. So, it might be. I don't want them involved in any of the.

ceremonial stuff, but they can come. Other people say, "Absolutely not. This. would cast too long a shadow. It's a. no." But, I do think people need someone. to walk them through this. This is where. therapy becomes crucial. That a a. therapist has no skin in the game, right? That's where it Friends may have. their opinions and family members, but a. therapist they just want you to have the. healthiest version of that day. And I. think that this is where having that. professional guidance with enough time. leading up to it. So, once again, you're.

not abandoning you to make this family. system work on what is a very very. important time for you. And if you do. decide like, "I'm going to have them. there to maintain the radical. acceptance, the realistic awareness, the. realistic expectations." That's a very. personal choice, but if you if it. doesn't feel safe No is No is a complete. sentence. >> Mhm. Dr. Romani, thank you for being so. clear, for being so vulnerable, for. being holding this space for such a.

difficult conversation. It really is. such a difficult, challenging. conversation that it's pulling at. people's heartstrings, it's playing with. people's emotions, it's affecting their. mental state, their physical state. I. mean, this is such a a conversation that. has so much. gravitas to it in in your life uh and. where it will go and just Thank you for. creating such a wonderful space for us. to learn and be curious and think about. it. I feel like I've gained so much. understanding for myself, but also for. the people that are struggling in.

between this decision or maybe you've. made it and you're questioning it. And. so, I really hope that this becomes an. episode that people send to their family. members, their friends who are. struggling with these things. Uh and I. hope that Dr. Romani's work continues to. guide you through. Uh you can find Dr. Romani all across social media, every. platform. We'll put all the links to her. books in the caption as well. Dr. Romani, thank you so much. >> Thank you so much for. >> here. Yeah, such a joy and really. grateful to learn so much from you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> If you enjoyed this conversation, you'll. love my episode with the world's leading.

relationship therapist Esther Perel, [music]. where we talk about why your ego is. ruining your relationships and how to. date more effectively. >> we need to differentiate. Are you. looking for chemistry for a love story. or are you for chemistry for a life. story?