Dr. Gabor Maté: The SHOCKING Link Between Trauma and Life Expectancy!

You can be yourself or you can be. accepted but not both at the same time. At some point, you start wondering who. the heck are we anyway? You know him as. the best-selling author of a number of. books. His work on the relationship. between addiction and childhood. development. Please help me welcome Dr. Gabor Maté. Two out of five regrets of. people who die before their time. You. know what it is? That they weren't themselves. They spent. their whole life trying to please. others. That's the top regret. How do we. fix broken people?

Before we jump into this episode, I'd. like to invite you to join this. community to hear more interviews that. will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is. click on the subscribe button. I love. your support. It's incredible to see all. your comments and we're just getting. started. I can't wait to go on this. journey with you. Thank you so much for. subscribing. It means the world to me. The number one health and wellness. podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The. one, the only Jay Shetty.

I've had the burning desire to ask you. this question. So, I read this quote the. other day. and it says. it's by Frederick Douglass. Yeah. And. the quote goes, "It is easier to build strong children. than fix broken men.". And my question was, "How do we fix broken people?" There's a. wonderful song by Leonard Cohen called. Come Heal or Come Healing. So, it begins,

"Oh, gather up the brokenness. Bring it. to me now. The fragrance of those promises you. never dared. to vow.". And then he says at some point, and here's the answer to your question. "All troubledness concealing an. undivided love. The heart beneath is. teaching to the broken heart above.". So, this poet, prophet, poet, visionary. is saying we have two hearts. There's the brokenness above.

and the undivided love that's below. That's underneath. He's saying, "There's. the broken heart above, and then there's. a heart beneath that teaching the broken. heart.". So, that implied in that is that. nobody's broken. But, then underneath the brokenness, there's wholeness. So, and that's not only Leonard Cohen, any. spiritual teachers you know. will tell you the same thing. So, it's not a matter of fixing anything.

broken. It's really It's finding the. wholeness that's underneath the. brokenness. Now, Douglas is totally right. Studies have shown that if you get. children who. suffer for first 3 years and then things. get okay for them, they do much worse. than those children who are well treated. and have a good life for 3 years and. then everything goes to pieces, the. latter group do do do much better. Cuz those words where it says, "The. child is the father of the man." So, that.

what happens early in life shapes our. world view and our sense of ourselves. So, yes, Douglas is totally right, but. ultimately, when I look at people, whether they agree with me or don't or. whether they. are suffering or not or whether they. even when they do terrible things, there's there's a wholeness, there's an. undivided. love underneath it, isn't there? There's a show right now in Los Angeles.

by somebody who's in a death row prison. in Texas. And uh his name is Obie. Sentenced to death. And he's on death row, has been for the. last 20 years. While his appeals wind their slow way. through the courts. If he wins the appeal, the best thing he can hope for. is life without parole. And he's in love with life. He's had a transformation. He's dealt with his addictions. He's dealt with his brokenness.

He's a He learned meditation. He's an artist. And some of his art is being shown in. Los Angeles right now. Unfortunately, I can't go see it cuz. it's only open certain days a week and. I'm not here. But there's somebody who came from a. totally broken childhood. and found a kind of presence. If you saw him, you and I could only envy the kind of. presence and and. at least to speak for myself, can't. speak for you, the kind of presence and the kind of.

engagement in life that he's got on a in. a death row prison. Well, if that can be. healed, if that brokenness, the. wholeness can be discovered underneath, there's no be broken. Mhm. Very well. said. I I would agree to. at the core, at the root, at the. essence, none of us are broken. Yeah. And our engagement with. that which is broken and imperfect often. rubs off on us. But what. would you say are the.

most detrimental experiences that people. have in those 3 years. that end up. creating. horrific ripple effects long-term? Anything that. makes them disconnect from themselves, from their true selves, from their gut. feelings, from their connection to their. bodies, um anything that deprives them of hope. Now, I remember I remember taking part. in a. retreat once. It's called an.

enlightenment intensive, where you do intensive spiritual work. I. won't go into the details, but Please go. into the details. Well, it it's it's. it's dyads. And it's two people at one time. sitting across from each other in in a. meditation posture, putting a question to one another. First. a question one person asks, the other. one listens, and then they switch places. for four times, and then you get a. different partner. And the question is. tell me who you are. The original question comes from um.

Rana Ramana Maharshi, whose work I'm. sure you know, uh one of these Indian. rishis and gurus, who just asked everybody, "Tell me who. you are.". And the idea is that by emptying your. mind and saying whatever is in your. head, clearing out the mental space, the direct experience of who you are. will come to you. A direct experience, not a thought, not an emotion, but a. direct experience. Now, I never had the. direct experience.

And I was embittered at the end. And at the very last dyad, person said, "Tell me who you are.". And I just started shaking. And. my whole body was tingling. And instead of paying attention to that, I I plunged into bitterness. And I said, "Is it my fault? They turned off the light in me. They. They killed the light in me so early.". So, I truly believed. that the light in me had been killed.

by what had happened to me as an infant. And for much of my life, even after I became a healer, and even. after I became a. a healer that was respected. by so many people, I thought. I could help heal everybody else, but I. can't be healed myself. So, to go back to your question, whatever early experience. kills your faith in your own. possibilities, that's what's so damaging. And for that,

it could be. evidence or experiences of severe abuse. It could also be a very sensitive child. who the world doesn't see for who they. are, who the world doesn't permit to express. themselves, so they shut up from. themselves, you know, to be accepted by. the world. So, any early experience that deprives. you of yourself, and that happens to a. lot of us. So, trauma is a huge. spectrum, but anything that breaks your. connection to yourself and you and your.

genuine, not your false egoic belief in. yourself, but your genuine belief in. your wholeness, that'll do it, and that happens to a lot. of us. I've always personally experienced it as. the volume of my inner voice. Yes. So, I found that at different points in. my life. my inner voice was extremely loud and. clear. and.

not only could I hear it clearly, but. the direction was clear. And then I've had moments in my life. where we're as you're refer- referencing. disconnected from yourself, Yeah. that voice is extremely quiet, maybe even non-existent, or it's. screaming out for help. It's You mean. the voice of your inner self is very. quiet? Correct. It can be. Well, the. Bible talks about the small still voice.

They actually call it that, the small. still voice. And it really takes attention. to notice it because there's so much. noise in the world and so much noise in. our heads. And there's all these other voices that. are much louder. You know, the singer Sheryl Crow, she. had breast cancer. and. she said afterwards, and this could be, and I quote this in. the myth of normal, and it could be. right out of my own work, but she. doesn't know about me. She just came to. this awareness. because the disease taught her. something, and she said that she always.

used to be serving other people and. trying to meet other people's emotional. needs, and. the breast cancer, now she's actually. listening to herself. And she says, "There used to be these. loud voices inside myself telling me. that whatever I did wasn't right. enough." She says, "Now, I've stilled. those voices.". You know? So, on the one hand, the the. voices of self um. disregard and and and and self-loathing. or self-seduction are very loud. And. that true voice for most of us.

is just so quiet. So, it takes a lot of attention to to to. notice it. A lot of what you're saying today we. experience it. as this idea of. people-pleasing, shapeshifting, Yeah. mediating, wanting to. make peace often in our families, in our. friend circle, all of which are can be. good, noble things, but often we find.

ourselves disconnected from ourselves. trying to play these different roles. Not only does that seem to be stemming. from a form of trauma of being. disconnected from yourself early on. What steps can one take to. regain one's connection with oneself so. that we're not running around. shapeshifting, people-pleasing, but at. the same time have genuine connections. with others? In in the book, we talk about this tension between.

authenticity and attachment. And. authenticity being connected to what. your soul says, your gut feelings, which. is necessary. It It nature gave us gut feelings for a. good reason. Gave us emotions for a good. reason. Uh attachment is a need to belong. And. if we can be authentic and belong, that's ideal. So, if. if you can find relationships in which. you can be your true selves and be. accepted. and loved, that's ideal. But a lot of our families of origin, our. parents, just couldn't give that to us. Like, they had their own limitations.

They couldn't see us so they don't. traumatize. like I did as a parent. And so, kids then get the message that you can. be yourself or you can be accepted, but. not both at the same time. At which. point, for sure survival's sake, for. sure survival's sake, we go with well, what do we need to do to get accepted? Then we get that message reinforced in. school and on the playground and with. our peers and at our work. And at some point,

we start wondering who the heck are we. anyway? And whose life am I leading. anyway? Well, how do you get back to it? Here's the question. Prior to your awakening, and I'm sure that for your awakening. was probably. both a series of. unique events, but also it was a. long-term process. For me, it was mostly process rather. than distinct experiences.

But say prior to awakening, did you sometimes know that you're not. being authentic? Cuz I sure did. I didn't know why I was. choosing not to be authentic. If I I. wasn't even choosing it. I just wasn't but something in me knew. Well, here's the question. Who inside us knows? Only that authentic self. That's always there. And so, I say to people, don't try and. look for the authentic self.

Just notice when you're not authentic. Just notice when you're not saying no. When there's a no that wants to be said. Just see where you're not saying yes. When there's a yes that wants to be said. inside you. Notice the impact on you. when you don't assert your true self. How do you feel afterwards? Resentful, ashamed, or tired, or whatever. So, notice the. difficulty being authentic. and ask yourself, well,

what is the belief that I'm carrying. that if I'm authentic, then what? So, in other words, now, all that noticing, what does that. do? Who's the one that's noticing? It's the authentic self. So, just by asking those questions, you're strengthening. you're empowering that authentic self. and. just going back to that, the heart underneath is teaching the. book and heart above, all that wholeness. is teaching the disconnection.

It's always there. I find that in between those two hearts. and in between those two layers, there's. almost a layer of. guilt and shame. So, when we go against. our authentic self, we do it because we're scared of. whether we feel guilty or we may feel. shame or fear. Yeah. And if we act authentically, we. then sometimes feel guilt for acting.

that way because of how it impacts. others or shame and fear. So, walk me through the construction of. fear and guilt and shame which seem to. be such Like, if you thought about the. emotions we all experience most on a. daily basis. I mean, let me ask you that. actually. What do you think. what are the emotions that you believe. people are experiencing most often, most. repetitively on a daily basis? I was. going to give you an easy answer to the. shame, guilt, fear question, but then.

you threw a curveball. Uh Sorry, I went. off I was I'm following my I'm following. my authentic voice. No, I love. curveballs. I love curveballs. I just. have to think about it. Yeah, please. So, what are the emotions people. experience most often? I think um anger, rage, and resentment. I think there's a lot more of than we. acknowledge. Now, often unacknowledged, experienced but not acknowledged. for fear. of consequences. I think also love that.

we also enough often afraid to. acknowledge because it's so vulnerable. Mhm. And we might say, "If I want you to love me, but I'm afraid to be vulnerable, then I may try to impress you, which may be the closest thing I can get. so that you'll pay attention to me.". You know, so that. emotions shame I think is very frequent. for a lot of people. Uh. That's has to do with trauma more than.

anything else. Fear. is something that people experience a. lot. Um. much more than. they can admit to themselves. Joy, people are not so afraid of it. Well, you know what? They might be. Joy. has been very difficult for me in my. life and I think some part of actually. some part of me used to say, "What right do I have to feel joy when. there's so much suffering in the world?". Mhm. Now, that's. logically a good question, but it's a nonsensical question.

Why? Because. there is a lot of suffering in the. world, and there's a lot of joy in the world, and the one doesn't negate the other. So, for me it was like, "What right do I have to experience joy. when my grandparents died in Auschwitz?". I I quote this in the Myth of Normal, my. friend and colleague and teacher, Bessel van der Kolk, psychiatrist who wrote the book The Body. Keeps the Score. He said to me once, "Gabor, you don't have to drag Auschwitz.

around with you all the time.". Which means that you don't have to allow. not to forget about Auschwitz, but not to let. that. control your consciousness. Which means you do have the right to. feel joy. You You do have the right to be happy, even as the world suffers. Not because the world suffers, and not. ignoring the suffering the world. But there's no contradiction. Let's dive. into some of those emotions because and. I love how they were easy answers for.

you and then the curveball, but. I think as you said fear is a repetitive. daily emotion thought for so many. people. Yeah. A lack of safety. emotionally, mentally, physically, on so many levels. we feel unsafe. Yeah. How does one process and heal. through and with fear because it seems. to be so consistent? The way that fear. shows up in most people's lives is in.

the form of anxiety. See, we're wired for fear. There's a great. neuro psychologist. died a few years ago before his time. Dr. Panksepp, and he identified all. these emotional circuits that we share. with other mammals. And fear was one of. them. We have a circuitry for fear, good. thing. If we're not afraid, we die. Out there in nature, you know. But that can become anxiety. So, let me tell you a story.

I'm going to show you this bracelet that. I'm wearing. Mhm. It's beautiful. Um it is beautiful and I never thought. I'd ever be wearing a bracelet. But I. was given this just shortly after the. time that I met you. And this comes from a place called Haida. Gwaii. And Haida Gwaii is islands in. northern British Columbia where I live. They used to be known as Well, they used. to be known as Haida Gwaii. Then with. the British colonization, they became. known as the Queen Charlotte Islands. That's really funny cuz I was speaking. in London once, or actually a couple of.

months ago, to an audience of 2,100 Britishers. And I said does anybody in the. this audience know who the hell Queen. Charlotte was? Nobody knew. No yeah, Well, Queen Charlotte was some. German princess who married. King George, the mad King George, who. was king of England when America became. independent. Anyway, so the British came, they named it Queen. Charlotte Islands. All of a sudden, these indigenous people, whose ancestors. have been living there for something.

like 13,000 years, all of a sudden, they were living on not. on Haida Gwaii anymore, which means land. of the people, but they were living in Queen Charlotte. Island. So, I was giving a trauma workshop there. for Haida people. That's when they gave me this bracelet. And the meaning of the carvings uh means. these words matter. At the end of 2 days, almost at the very. end of the trauma workshop for the Haida. people, a woman in her 70s at least,

comes up. and she said, "I used to speak perfect. Haida. until I was 5 years old. And then I forgot my language. And even when I've gone back to school. as an adult to learn my native language, the words don't stick in my brain.". And I said, "What happened to you?". Well, what happened to her, she went to these residential schools, residential schools where the indigenous. kids were forced to go, run by the churches mostly, and she.

dared speak her native language, and the. teacher took a stick and beat her. mercilessly. in her body, in her head, in her limbs. No native kids in in my own lifetime is. when I was a teenager in British. Columbia. A 4-year-old Indian Indian, they're not. Indians, indigenous Canadian, a First. Nation kid spoke their own language, they'd have a pin stuck in her tongue. So, they literally.

So, I said to her, "Look, you're losing your language. It was your organism protecting you. It was your fear system, telling you. that if you do that again, you know, you. might not survive. Cuz she hated herself for it. She hated. herself hated herself for the anxiety. She hated herself because I was so. passive, she said. I said that passivity. was your organism's only way Mhm. to.

protect you. Cuz had you fought back. or had you asserted your right to speak. your language, much worse would have happened to you. Mhm. So, that fear protected her. But it translates into anxiety. Where it's no longer fear of a specific. thing, it's just fear of the world. Mhm. Now, the the rate of anxiety So, we. have a uh. a system for fear. And. the the greatest danger to a young child.

is the loss of relationship. Because without relationship, we can't. survive. I mean, we're protect we're. defenseless, we're vulnerable, we're. helpless. Mhm. So, the loss of. protective adults is the biggest fear. that the child has. In this society, a lot of parents can't. be there for their kids the way they. need to be, the way they want to be. because of the stresses, economic, social, racial, political, whatever they're going. through, just the nature of the. disconnected culture that we live in.

Parents are not there for their kids the. way the children need to be. The fear becomes chronic anxiety. Mhm. That we're never safe. And now that becomes part of our sense. of self. So, would you say. but but this lack of emotional safety. what it actually is. is that early childhood fear. is when a child is afraid, they will ask for help. Mhm. But when. repeatedly the help is not available. and the adults don't come. because they're too busy, too stressed, too traumatized, too preoccupied, too.

downtrodden, or. too propagandized by parenting experts. to ignore their kids' cries, the child gets the message that there's. no safety. Mhm. So, that original fear that's meant to. result in a cry for help now becomes. chronic anxiety. So, fear. not dealt with. gets ingrained as anxiety. Mhm. It's no. longer about anything specific. It's just.

being in the world is a source of fear. Mhm. But, it shouldn't be. It almost feels. like. as you were saying that what should. result in a cry for help externally. Yeah. becomes a perpetual cry internally. That's exactly it. without a feeling of. being able to help yourself. Exactly. You know that Beatles song, "Help"? Yeah. "Help, I need somebody, not just. anybody." And John Lennon sings. and he was a very traumatized child, as. you know, whose father left him when he.

was born. and whose mother abandoned him a few. years later. And then he sings in his song. "When I was younger, so much younger. than today. I never needed anybody's help in any. way. But now, those days are gone, I'm not so. self-assured. So, I open the door, you. know, please help me.". No, that's not the way it was. When he was younger, so much younger. than than today. he needed everybody's help in every way.

But, because the help wasn't available. he had to shut himself down. and make himself sort of like a. self-created, self-sufficient person. And only later on does he realize, "You. know what? I actually do need help.". But, he was never that person who didn't. need He just believed he didn't need. help. Why did he believe that? As an adaptation Mhm. because the help. wasn't there. Mhm. So, so many of us. One of the biggest things that people. are afraid to do is to ask for help. Mhm. When I give workshops. and I I myself is.

my automatic reaction when somebody. offers help, "Oh no, it's okay. I'm fine." Even though the help would be. very welcome, you know. Yeah. How do you find that because I. feel so many people today. have someone in their life who's closed. off from help. Yeah. It might be your partner, it might be a. child, it might be a parent. We all have. someone in our life. who. in our limited capacity. but a little bit of awakening, we can.

notice that someone is really closed and. won't receive help. Yeah. How do you help someone who. is rejecting help or not accepting that. they may need it because of the position. they've experienced based on what you. just said? I myself used to believe I. was one of these people. I actually used. to believe, can you believe this? I used. to believe that everybody else could be. stressed but I couldn't be. Mhm. I I. used to feel like that, too. I used to believe that I can help I can. help everybody but I don't need help. myself, you know. There used to be a.

time when I used to feel like that, too. So, uh how do you help somebody like. that? You help them by accepting that that's. how it is for them right now and not. trying to push your help on them cuz. when you try and push help, you're just. going to get resistance. So, you if you. can handle it, you can be around them. and be open but not insist or try and. prove to them that they need help. Life. will teach them. When I meditate these. days, I do the uh compassion meditation. which says, you know, that may I um.

face and overcome all of life's. inevitable setbacks and challenges and. failures. with patience, understanding, um strength, and determination. and may I rise above them with um. compassion and morality and integrity. and. wisdom and and mindfulness. If we can stay around people. compassionately, without trying to prove to them. that they need something that they don't. believe they need, then at some point. life will bring a challenge.

that may prove to them that yeah, they. they need help. And if you're still around. open, then they'll reach out to you. If you try and convince them. bring them over. prove it to them, force it on them. And. I I believe I might have done that. Done. it with my own family, I've done it with. others. You just invite resistance. So, best way to help people is not. to help, unless the help is.

invited. And that's almost what most of us don't. want to hear, because we want to again, going back to our earlier point. we want to fix and solve and make. everything nice and perfect right now. Yeah. And. I guess that is also a form of trauma. There's something there as to why we. want that. Well, and when I write about. people who are prone for chronic illness. uh it's. often people like like autoimmune. disease, for example.

It's often and and this is not just my. own finding, other people researchers. have found this as well, that there are. people who tend to ignore their own. emotional needs and are compulsively. concerned with the emotional needs of. others. And um. they tend to believe that um. in The Myth of Normal, I quote an an. obituary. And obituaries are really. interesting to me, cuz they often. highlight as laudable qualities the very. things that I think contributed to the. person's death. Let's talk about those. Yeah, there was.

a book written by an Australian nurse. um 12 years ago now, called The Top Five. Regrets of Dying People. And she she like I used to work in. palliative care, working with dying. people, as you mentioned in the. introduction. And um. for 7 years I was the medical. coordinator of a big palliative care in. the dying. dying people of Vancouver hospital. And this nurse, also palliative care. health worker, wrote this book The Top. Five Regret The Top Regrets of People. Who Died Before That Time. You know what.

it is? That they weren't themselves. That they spent a whole life trying to. please others. That's the top regret. Now, this this obituary, you have to believe that I'm not making. this up. This is a physician in Canada who died. at age 72 of cancer. And the obituary says, "Sidney and his mother had an incredibly. special relationship, a bond that was. apparent in all aspects of their lives. until her death.

As a married man with young children, Sidney would have dinner with his. parents every day. Then he would go home as his wife Roslyn. and their three children waited for him. with another yet another dinner to eat. and to enjoy. Not wanting to disappoint either woman. in his life, Sidney kept eating two dinners a day for. years until gradual weight gain began to. raise suspicions.". Now, this man suffered from two fatal.

beliefs. And when I say fatal, I mean. fatal. One is that he was responsible for other. people feel. And the other is that he was never to. disappoint anybody. Now, so many of us go through life like. that. You know, now actually, I'm not responsible for how you feel. I'm responsible for how I act, for how I speak, what I do and what I say. I'm not responsible for how you feel in. response. When you were in Vancouver. and you contacted me,

and if I hadn't feel like seeing you, but I hadn't slept all night, say, cuz I. was up with. some other duty or looking after. somebody, and if I had said yes and. still come make you a cup of coffee, cuz. I had fear of disappointing you. And because. I I didn't want you to feel. disappointed. What would that have meant. for me? It would have meant for me more. fatigue. And probably I would have. resented the hell out of you. Mhm. Even though I was pretending to be. nice, you know, you know.

Thank god. And you on the other hand, if I said no, if I was authentic and I said, "Look, Jay, I'm sorry. So glad you're in town, but I was up all. night, I just, you know.". Now, if you had felt hurt, and perceived yourself as rejected by. me, that's not on me. Mhm. That's your. interpretation of my behavior. Mhm. Nothing to do with me. Mhm. I just. said what was true for me. So, but that fear of disappointment, had I. been afraid to disappoint you, because I.

don't want to lose your friendship, and. I don't want to lose your friendship, but if I believe that if I'm authentic, I'm going to lose Jay's friendship, that's going to keep me inauthentic. Mhm. And you're living a lie here. And even when you like me, there's still. going to be a fear in me. What if you really knew me, you know? Yeah. So, it doesn't even work. Yeah. But. we're sort of we're so afraid of. disappointing others. And then one day I may feel we have an. inauthentic friendship, because I can. notice that you're not being fully.

yourself. Yeah. And then then I can even. feel that way. You can let me down even. by trying to be everything I wanted you. to be. That's what I so find so. fascinating in life is that you can let. someone down even after becoming. everything you thought they wanted you. to be. Well, exactly. Well, go back to that example of coffee. If I. said to you, "Jay, I'm sorry, I can't do. it today.". Which honors you more? Mhm. If I believe that you're.

so weak and vulnerable that you can't. handle a no, or if I honor of by telling. you the truth? Mhm. Which uh shows you more respect? You know? Definitely that. So that I can be. everything you want to be and still not. honor you. Yes. Yeah. It's fascinating. how we can. be so opposite in our perceptions and. viewpoints. Yeah. And a big part of that. comes also we talked about fear, but I. wanted to talk about guilt because.

Oh yeah, guilt. Guilt, yeah. What do you. want to say about guilt? No, well, what I what well, I want to. hear from you about guilt, but when I. think of. guilt, I think it's such a strong driver. for so many actions in the world today. It is. We're guilty of something in the past. and therefore we do something strange in. the future or the present that we. wouldn't have done. We. feel guilty right now and that makes us. say something that we don't mean or. something that we Exactly.

How. do we. untrap ourselves from the trappings of. guilt? Great. Well, let me tell you a. story. So uh you know in the Bible, the New Old. Testament, Moses is um. um a Hebrew. boy. born at a time when the Pharaoh's um. soothsayers declare that some Hebrew. male born around this time will rise up. and challenge the Pharaoh.

So they decide to kill all the. Hebrew newborns. by throwing them into the Nile River. But Moses' mother, rather than. throws the boy into the river, but in a. wicker basket. And so Moses floats down the river. and he gets plucked out of the water by. the Pharaoh's daughter. who adopts him. So this Hebrew infant is um. adopted into the royal court.

Treated like a prince. Mhm. That's why. Walt Disney could make a film called. Prince of Egypt. You know, all this. happened just so Walt Disney could make. a film. You know? In any case, um. there's a extra-biblical legend. It's not in the Bible, but it's an. ancient legend. And you think, what the heck is this guy. talking about? I just asked him about. guilt, and he's talking about. No, I love this. This is my favorite. type of answer. Okay. It's when I'm. curious, and I I I'm following cuz I. don't know where you're going. Okay, great. But believe me, I'm going to come. back to that. I believe it. I believe.

it. I trust you. So, the legend is that. Moses is a toddler, and the pharaoh's soothsayers. divine. that he might be a danger. Which eventually he proves to be. So, they decide to put him to a test. They put in front of him two sparkling. objects. Now, I don't know if you. remember, but in the Bible, Moses has a. speech impediment. Mhm. And it's his. brother Aaron who has to do the speaking. for him. How does he get the speech. impediment? Well, the pharaoh's. soothsayers say, well, this boy needs to. be examined, and they decide to put him.

to a test. And they put in front of him. two sparkling objects. One of them is a. royal diamond of Egypt, and the other is. a sparkling ember of glowing ember of. coal. Mhm. Now, if Moses reaches for the royal. diamond, it means he's got royal ambition, and he. needs to be killed. So, there's this little toddler. delightedly looking at these two. scintillating objects, and his hand starts moving towards the. diamond, at which point standing behind.

him. is an is Gabriel, Gabriel, which is the Hebrew version of my name, Gabor, by the way. And. and grabs his hand. and takes it away from the diamond and. puts it to the coal. Now, Moses, finishing the motion that. kids will do, picks up the coal, puts it. to his mouth, and burns his lips. And that's why he develops a speech. impediment. Mhm. Now, here's my question. to you. Is the angel Moses' friend or enemy?

He's trying to be a friend, but But he. hurt him. Mhm. Had to hurt him to save. his life. Mhm. Right? So, he's a friend. Mhm. Guilt is that kind of a friend. Mhm. Okay. Guilt comes along. in early childhood. Not because you did anything wrong, but because you sensed that whatever you. did displeased your parents, and you. can't afford to do that. So, there needs to be an internal. mechanism. that keeps you close to your parents.

That says, for example, if you're authentic. and you show your anger, you won't be. accepted. There better be an internal mechanism to. keep you. on track. So, guilt comes along. as this friend that says, "No. Take your hand away from where you want. to put it. You have to. stifle your real desires.". So, guilt comes along to maintain a. relationship. Not cuz you did anything wrong, cuz a. 2-year-old, 3-year-old, they can't do.

anything wrong by definition. Mhm. They. may do things that are not good, and. they need to be taught not to do it, but. it's not wrong. There's no guilt there. Mhm. There's no I'm going to do. something evil here, Mhm. you know? So, guilt is totally. not appropriate. And there's ways of teaching children. without guilt. But guilt comes along to keep you in. line. Now, is that your friend or your enemy? Mhm. It's your friend, but it's hurting you.

The problem with these early friends, and I call them. Some people don't like this word, but I. say call them stupid friends. The. stupidity comes in the fact they don't. realize that you're an adult. Mhm. You. can make your own decisions now and look. after yourself. You don't need to be. controlled by. their advice that was meant for a. 2-year-old. Mhm. So, that's where they. They're just not educable. Mhm. So when I say to people these days, now most people who feel guilty when. they act a little bit on their own. behalf, I say to them, "For God's sakes,

have a party. Celebrate. I've done. something for myself.". You call your friends, you know, have a. celebration that you were so. quote-unquote selfish. Like like like. Sheryl Crow said, all these voices that always told her. that she has to ignore herself and serve. others, now she doesn't listen to them. anymore. That's the guilt. So you know, recognize the guilt, say. hello to it, thank it. Now, is there such a thing as healthy. remorse? Yeah. If I promised to meet you.

for coffee and I don't show up cuz I. find something more pleasurable to do, I should feel some remorse. So remorse is about specific That's. healthy remorse. You know, if I break my word, if I hurt. somebody where I un you know, I should feel remorse. But that's not a long-term thing. It's not the chronic guilt that you're. talking about. That's not something what what happened. a long time ago and now it limits me or.

controls me. It's a healthy remorse for some specific. thing. That's different from guilt. Guilt is. this old friend that's long outlived. their their usefulness. And the. challenge is that we still treat it like. a today friend. Exactly. It's almost. like. we're so scared of. breaking that dependence as well. We. uh thinking, "Well, I feel guilty that. I'm not around, so I'll stay around this.

individual, this group of people, whatever it may be.". But there's a part of me that wants to. to depend on them as well. And I don't want to break free. completely as well because I don't even. know what that looks like. Like you're. saying, like as an adult you can take. care of yourself. You can walk your own. path, but. you're actually scared of doing that. Yeah. And so you accept the pain of. guilt Yeah. because it allows for. dependence. Well, that's a good point, and I often say to people,

you're going to have pain one way or the. other. Yes. Which pain would you like? Mhm. Mhm. Cuz. sometimes in life there's no pain-free. options. Mhm. You can have the pain of suppressing. yourself Mhm. for the sake of being. accepted, or you can have the pain and sometimes. of being yourself and not being. accepted. Mhm. You can have pain one way or the other. Mhm. And I have my own bias. that the pain of not being ourselves. ultimately is by far the greater and the.

more chronic pain, Mhm. and that the. pain, the short-term pain of being. ourselves brings liberation Mhm. and. genuine independence, which means I can. have genuinely independent relationships. with other people who are willing to. accept me as independent. Mhm. You know, but in the short term, which pain do you want? Mhm. Not. There's no pain-free option. You know? Yeah, for sure. That you. reminded me of. this beautiful. idea that Thich Nhat Hanh shares that.

there's familiar pain and unfamiliar. pain, and these are our two choices. And the challenge is we're so scared of. unfamiliar pain Yeah. that we would. rather choose familiar pain. Yeah. and go through the same pain. because we know how it's going to feel. Exactly. And we think, "Well, at least. I'm aware. At least I am conscious of. how bad it can get." Exactly. But. hearing you speak, being independent or. being dependent both has pain. Yeah. And.

but the pain of dependence. far outweighs the pain of independence. Well, let's put a bit of a nuance in. there. Ultimate I mean I mean technology also. talk about interbeing. Mhm. How we are. inter are. Mhm. So, in a certain sense, we do depend. on each other, you know, and and that's. okay. The question is do we depend on any each. other authentically or inauthentically? The fact that I'm independent doesn't. mean that I'm not going to reach out for.

help. Mhm. Or that I won't offer it. Mhm. But it. does mean. that. I will be honest with you. And I won't be pretending to be somebody. else that I'm not so you like me. Mhm. You know, so. there's anything interesting. word difference between. two phrases that sound very familiar. One is called individualism. and the other is called individuation. Mhm. Now, rugged individualism is I don't. need anybody and I you know, it's me. against the world and you know, this is.

the North American. capitalist ideal, you know? Well, human beings never would have. evolved had we been those rugged. individuals. Mhm. The rugged individualist won't last more. than one generation. Mhm. But individuated means. that we can be ourselves, truly. ourselves. in genuine relationship with others. Mhm. Mhm. Not rugged individualists. Mhm. I I mean, the most.

boring people are rugged individualists. cuz they all look the same, you know? So, so you can be um. individuated and be true to yourself. Mhm. and still belong and still. vulnerably Mhm. desire human contact. Mhm. You know? Yeah, I I couldn't agree. more. I think. there's a lot of rhetoric around well, don't care what anyone else thinks and. it doesn't matter and you just do your. own thing and it's almost that's almost.

a bitter response as well because we do. have to care what people think. If we. lived in a world where you didn't care. what anyone thought, Yeah. it wouldn't be that healthy. because we would do all sorts of. obscene, horrific things. I'd phrase it. differently. I'm intrigued, yeah. I'm intrigued. Yeah. I don't care what anybody thinks. But I do care what I do and how it. affects other people. Mhm. You know, so. there's another spiritual teacher,

Gunaratana. He wrote a book called uh. Mindfulness in Plain English, Mhm. which. I've just been working through recently. and um. he's talking about a higher morality. that comes from being truly yourselves. and in touch. And he says, "Well, you. don't need rules anymore because it's. like St. Augustine said, uh. love and do what you will." Mhm. So, if. you actually love the world, you don't. have to give yourself rules. because that love will dictate Mhm. how. you act towards other people.

I can't worry about what other people. think. Look, if I worried about what. other people think, I would not have. written any of my books because each of. my books challenged the the reigning. orthodoxy. In in say medicine, you know, or whether it's surrender attention. deficit or stress and disease or. addictions. Every time I write a book, I'm saying something that. I'm not saying that I invented it, but. that I. I've come to understand and currently. uh believe and want to communicate, but. I can't worry about what other people. think. Mhm. Or when I make a political.

statement, I'm responsible for what I say, how I. say it, but not what other people think. about it. But I But that doesn't mean. that I can that I can ignore other. people's experience. Mhm. So, as long as. my intention. is purely to speak a truth. and I do so with integrity, I can't. worry about what other people think. I I. I can't. Yeah. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go. around just doing terrible things cuz I. don't care what what you think. As As. long as I'm. convinced that what I do and if I'm If.

I've done that kind. Mhm. and I haven't always Mhm. but if I do an inventory about well. what is my intention here? Is there a. hierarchy of pain or hierarchy of. trauma? What do you mean by hierarchy? I feel. like people feel like well this trauma. is worse than this trauma and this. trauma is better than this one. We often. hear about that as a conversation. Is. that accurate? So. one could say so. Uh. cuz if you look at a child who's say.

sexually abused. as opposed to a child whose parents. just can't. honor and accept and and and validate. their emotions. Well, my god, you're talking about two. different set of experiences so that. there's certainly. horrific things happen to some people to. wound them and other people suffer. wounds. in a very. different way. But. the question is is it useful to make.

that distinction? It's one thing to. recognize it, but let's say let's say. you were my 4-year-old. You come to me and you say uh. Dad, I'm afraid of so-and-so and I say. snap out of it. Only cowards are afraid. and then get out of here and take care. of yourself. And then you went to your mom and said. I tried to talk to Daddy but you know. would it be helpful for your mother to. say. oh snap out of it. Think of all the kids. that are being sexually abused. Think of all the starving kids. Think of. all the kids that are being bombed.

What are you complaining about? Would that be helpful? No. So that it's. not a helpful game to play. I don't. compare people's traumas. Uh trauma simply means a wound and. people are wounded in all kinds of ways. When I try to help people. the least helpful thing I can do is to. tell them that somebody else's trauma is. much worse than mine or much worse than. yours. So. objectively, yes. Practically. it's not a helpful distinction. Mhm. Uh. people are wounded and you have to tend.

to the wound, whatever it is. You know, if you. came to me with a. cut on your arm. and you asked me to stitch it up, it wouldn't be helpful for me to tell. you that, "Oh, what are you worried. about? There's people with broken arms. out there or people with broken you. know, So, no, it's not a helpful thing to. engage in. even though. there's truth in it. Yeah. What's really. fascinating every time I speak to you, Gabor, is that there's such nuance, subtlety,

and there's a quote that I want to share. with you to get your thoughts on. I want. to bring it up here. Yeah. So, this quote is from F. Scott. Fitzgerald. Okay. who famously wrote, "The test of a first-rate intelligence. is the ability to hold two opposing. ideas in mind at the same time and still. retain the ability to function. One. should, for example, be able to see that. things are hopeless, yet be determined.

to make them otherwise." Absolutely. So, that's brilliant and what. Fitzgerald is talking about there. is what is called integrative. intelligence. And integrative intelligence is when you. can say. on the one hand, on the other hand, both things can be true and uh I need to. somehow. come to some conclusion about them. without rejecting the one truth or the. other.

Now, little kids are totally incapable. of integrative intelligence. So, a 3-year-old will either say, "I. hate you, Daddy." or "I love you, Daddy." but they can't say, "I love you, Daddy, but I'm very angry with you.". which is really what's going on. It's either love or hate. So, integrative thinking is a capacity of. intellectual and actually emotional. maturation. A lot of people are completely incapable. of it. It's a one or the other. You talked about the. the deadness of the heart Mhm. and the.

moral apathy. And. all my life. since I've been um. conscious. of the horrors including. and beginning with the. Holocaust that nearly killed me and. killed my grandparents. Nearly killed my parents and I but when. I became conscious of that at age 11. what happened was that my parents had a. book on a high shelf. they didn't want me to read. And when I was 11 I climbed up on a. chair.

and it was a book called the Scourge of. the Swastika. And it was about it was the first book. about the Nazi horrors. And I saw photographs and I read the. story. And for years Jay afterwards literally. every day in my head would be dizzy. It'd spin. I'd say, "How is this possible? How is. our heart not broken every day?" I'm. asking you now. Yeah. Cuz I. I'm I'm wrestling with this question. I. mean I suppose I have an intellectual. answer. Or more to the point, maybe. along the lines of FitzGerald says.

"How can our heart be broken and not be. broken at the same time?". Mhm. Because I think both are necessary. Yeah. And and I find. everything all across the world that. occurs, I feel like. people's hearts. are broken. but they break and ache for different. things. Mhm. And I think that. that's why the words of FitzGerald. resonate so strongly with me. Yeah.

Because just to repeat those last two. lines. one should for example be able to see. that things are hopeless yet be. determined to make them otherwise. And. you know, what you're saying it's how I. was trained in the monastery as well. The goal was always. how can you be a helper? How can you be. a server? How can you be useful? How can. you help, heal? Like that's what you. look for.

in moments of tragedy, whatever they may. be. And. I just think that not much. unites us on the heart level as. equals across the world. I don't think there's many things that. we. look to. globally as the human race as we were. once referred to or called to that. creates a sense of connectivity.

And there's genuine fear. that makes us feel, well, if my break my. heart breaks for this, then what if what will happen to my. heart? That the grief might be too much. to bear. Yeah, or or not not that. I. mean more so that well, if my heart. breaks for this event, some part of it is, yes, there's too. much to think about, for sure, it's. overwhelming. And then the other side is. well, if it breaks for this, then is it. allowed to break for that as well?

You know, this idea of holding two. opposing ideas seems to be such a need. in the world, like just generally, like. even the belief of. I have to work on my health. that I'm happy I'm alive. Like these are two opposing ideas. Like. we're not looking at it from I'm. unhealthy or I'm healthy. Well, you know what's interesting there, is that when I was working in palliative. care, sometimes people would say to me, and this is amazing, I don't recommend.

it, but they'd say. they'd be dying. They actually be dying. They'd have a. couple of weeks left. They'd say, "Doc, I don't know how to explain this. exactly, but this disease is the best. thing that ever happened to me.". I don't wish it on anybody, but what. were they talking about? Now, there's a guy called in the myth of. normal wrote a book called blessed with. a brain tumor. Blessed with a brain. tumor. Young Australian guy. Who was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Um did have surgery, did accept.

treatment. He also had a spiritual transformation. Has lived longer than his prognosis. I don't know. what his current status is, but he wrote. a book called blessed with a brain tumor. and by the way. he developed a brain tumor that is at. the same spot they used to point at with. an imaginary gun to shoot himself in the. head when he was thinking of suicide. Mhm. I said, "What do you mean blessed with a. brain tumor?". And he said, "Well,

knowing that I'm going to die. or that I might. means that every moment is precious.". Mhm. He says, "That means that when I'm. talking to you or anybody else. I'm fully aware that this may be the. last conversation we'll ever have." Mhm. That means that every moment is. absolutely precious. Mhm. I've never. been so engaged with life. And that's what people meant. And so that. even a disease that. was going to take their lives they they. they'd say and why because the disease. taught them to be authentic for the.

first time in their lives and they found. out that was much more precious Mhm. than anything else. Now, that's not a. bargain I'd recommend to anybody. Totally, yeah. I'm just telling you that. I've witnessed it. Mhm. And it's quite. astonishing. Mhm. How many people do find authenticity to. go back to our previous theme. They. value that over anything else. Over even. longevity. Mhm. Now, most of us would. probably run the other way. Mhm. Again, I'm not recommending it. Yeah. I'm just. saying I've seen it. Yeah, but it's.

always those opposing ideas that feeling. of. I'm good and I want to be better. Yeah. I'm. a good husband or a good dad or a good. mom or I'm a good whatever at the same. time. I'm not good enough. Like I I you know, whatever it may be. Not that, that's. negative, but the idea of I I I know I. can do more and I want to do more. So there's such a need for this. dichotomy almost to be held. Well, is.

there? Well, the ability to hold those two. opposing ideas is needed, right? Like. because you don't want I don't want to. live in a world where I think I'm. perfectly healthy, everything's amazing, because then I may miss certain. challenges. And I also don't want to. live in the other world of oh my god, like everything's falling apart and I'm. dying every second of the day. Like But. what if we just looked at it in a. unitary way? Then it's a matter of growth. Mhm. But. I'm not as fully grown as I might be. Mhm. But there's nothing wrong. Yes. You. know, you know, so.

you know, I'm. I'll be 80. You know, I mean, talk about. You said 80? 80, yeah. Yeah. I know it's a big number. Beauty and grace. It's amazing. Well, do. the numbers. I was born in '44. Yeah, yeah. I always forget. Yeah. I forget when I'm with you. Yeah. And there's this expression, I've been. thinking about this recently, this. expression growing older. Mhm. So we we. could just say being older or becoming. older or getting older, but we say. growing older. Mhm. Now that's an. interesting phrase, isn't it? Mhm. Cuz. actually as we get older.

we shrink. Mhm. So what are we talking. about growing older? Well, Mhm. because growth. Mhm. being an emotional spiritual process, that continues. That can continue. forever. So for me it's not a matter of. I'm good, but I can be better. It's a. question of can I continue to grow? Mhm. Not what is anything wrong now, but. can I continue to grow? Mhm. Which is. really the um. essence of life. As long as there's.

life, there's growth, isn't there? Mhm. You know? Mhm. And uh. the growth may be at some point purely. physical. At some point. physically, there might even be. contraction, but spiritually and. emotionally, there can always be growth. So, it's. rather than a dichotomy, it's more like. a a unitary process. Mhm. I I I I do appreciate that. I do feel. that. What is You just sparked something for. me. You were giving this example, the. story you just told about how the.

gentleman when he thought he was going. to commit suicide, he would hold his. almost like a gun to his head. Yeah. And that's the place he developed the. trauma. Yeah. The tumor. How does trauma. intercept the body. in that way? Like this that feels such like a. physical example of that. I can give you other examples. Yeah. When I was working in palliative care, I was looking after a young woman. She. was 38. with ALS, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis,

which is a. disease of the nervous system. You. basically get paralyzed. The The muscles. that or the nerves that activate your. muscles just die. They harden. That's. what sclerosis means. So, they. they become rigid and they become unable. to move. This woman, she was a dancer, beautiful woman, and. we talked a lot in her last weeks. She. told me. that all her life.

she used to have this dream of being. buried alive. Boxed in, unable to breathe, unable to. move. She was a dancer, and she began to. notice that. on the dance floor, she couldn't execute. the movements anymore. Something was. wrong. So, she was diagnosed with ALS. And she went to the office of the ALS. Society, and on the wall, there was a poster that. said, "Having ALS was like being buried. alive.". Wow. The.

cellist, Jacqueline du Pré, was a great. classic British classical cellist. Died in her 40s. She was a big. international. rocket Mhm. star in the classical music. world. She died of MS, multiple sclerosis. She. couldn't move anymore. She By that By. the time she was in her late 20s, she. couldn't play the cello anymore. Mhm. When she was 8 years old, she said to. her sister sister Hilary, "Don't tell. our mommy this, but when I grow up, I.

won't be able to move or walk." Mhm. Now, all of these people, these three people, the guy with the brain tumor, the woman with the ALS, Jacqueline du Pré, they've been deeply traumatized in. childhood. I'm not going to go into how, but they had been. That woman's dream that she couldn't. move or walk. was literally an expression of her. emotional experience in her family of. origin. Mhm. In her deathbed, nobody came to see her. Mhm. from her family. She was all alone, like she had been all her life. She.

couldn't be herself. She couldn't. speak or move. or get enough air to be herself. So, that that dream was. metaphoric to start with, then became a. physical reality. Mhm. Now, how does the. metaphor How does the Or how does the. emotion How does the trauma translate. into physical reality? That has to do. with the. scientific little secret. Don't tell any. doctors this cuz they. They might not know what to do with it, but well, some of them don't.

They're not taught in medical school. Mind and body are inseparable. Mhm. Our emotions, our nervous system, our emotional system. in our brains and our bodies, our. nervous system, our hormonal apparatus, and our immune system are actually one. system. Mhm. Uh all serving survival and growth and. reproduction. And. so they're not separate. Even to say. that they're connected. is a bit false because. Yeah. it's one. Yes. Yes. Now, which means.

that. what happens emotionally. can have a significant impact on the. nervous system, on the gut, on the heart, on the and on the immune. system, and on our hormones. Just. obviously. Mhm. So, without going into the. mechanisms. of how trauma affects, but trauma can. affect genetic function, how chromosomes function, trauma can affect our immune system. Actually, for example, study that I quote, women. with severe post-traumatic stress.

disorder. have double the risk of ovarian cancer. Mhm. according to a Harvard study a few. years ago. Well, but that means that the. severe emotions. um endured by the woman with PTSD. can declare themselves in a form of. malignancy because. they affect the immune system. Mhm. And. the milder the symptoms, the less the. risk of ovarian cancer. So, mind and body being one unit, obviously, our emotional lives and emotional. traumas and wounds can show up in our.

physiology, which is why. autoimmune diseases are much more common. amongst racialized women Mhm. both in. Canada and the US cuz they're hurt a lot. more. as women and as racialized people. Mhm. So, it just all one thing. Mhm. And uh. again, is that a new finding or is that. something. or is that an ancient wisdom? Mhm. And. it's both. Mhm. It's both modern. science, not taught in medical schools for.

reasons that are. interesting but rather distressing, and. it's ancient wisdom as well. Mhm. It's. all one. And with that approach, you mean we. can't minimize the number of steps and. the uniqueness of those, but. the hope is that people can work. medically and mentally to be able to. release that trauma. I have photographs. on my um. on my cell phone and on my computer. of a woman that I met uh 5 years ago. I.

gave a talk in London. on the subject of mind-body unity and. how stress and trauma can lead to. autoimmune disease. And uh autoimmune disease is where the. immune system attacks the body itself. And this woman sent me photographs a. year ago. Now, when I met her, she'd. been diagnosed with autoimmune disease. called systemic lupus, which has got a typical presentation of. what's called a butterfly rash. So, her. face is red like here, like the wings of. a butterfly, with the body of the. butterfly as a red red rash over her.

nose. It's called a butterfly rash. It's. typical of that disease. And she sent me. a picture of her fingers when she was. diagnosed. They were like yellow as wax. because the blood supply had been. constricted. She was told. that you got this disease. We don't know. what causes it. Can't cure it. Probably it'll get worse. and you'll be on medication for the rest. of your life. I could show you these photographs. You. could actually show them because she's. given me permission. She sent me pictures a year ago. Face totally beautiful, pink as.

anything, no rash, fingers are as pink. as mine and yours. No medication. No treatment. She just dealt with the. emotional part of it. All her life she. had suppressed herself. Just along the. lines I've been talking about. She dealt with her trauma. She's become. fully, authentically, and vigorously. herself. The disease is gone. Doctors would say if some doctors say, "Well, that's just an anecdote." Yeah, it's an anecdote. Yeah, it's but it has. to be a true anecdote. I pay attention. to anecdotes. Not only that, this has. been studied.

systematically by others. And there are people who once they deal. with the emotional side of things and. take charge of their lives, they recover from diseases that are. supposed to have been hopeless. And if. you just look at the example of um um. Stephen Hawking, the great physicist, who was diagnosed with ALS at age 20. He. lived another 55 years. Mhm. Now, the. disease progressed, but he outlived his. prognosis by a good half a century. Mhm. Folks, I hate to tell you this. We.

doctors don't know everything. Mhm. And. especially. we don't fully understand, I should say. as a profession, the wondrous workings. of mind and body and the spirit. and how they all interact. So, when you. look at the indigenous healing practices. like the North American natives, they've. got this medicine wheel. The four. quadrants, which is, you know, the. the physical and the mental, which means. also the emotional, and the social and. the spiritual. And those four quadrants. have to be in balance for us to be.

healthy. Mhm. Now, they didn't have the science we do. and they didn't have the amazing. achievements of Western medicine, which. are truly. miraculous. Mhm. But they did have a wisdom that if only. we adopted and combined it with the. incredible achievements of Western. medicine, boy, what a health system we could possibly. have, you know? That's definitely the Yeah. what you're. helping try and build for the future. Mhm. And and all of our platforms are. dedicated to that. Hopefully, we can get. to a place for that integrative.

holistic viewpoint. And there are more. and more physicians practicing that way. You know, there are. um people functional medicine and. integrated medicine. Not as holistic as I like them to be, but far more holistic than. mainstream medicine. And these are. medically trained physicians like I was, so it's not like some fly-by-night. alternative weird occult. I mean, these. are just doctors who like myself at some. point came to terms with the limitations. of their education Mhm. and needed to.

infuse some. more ancient wisdom into. how they practice the arts of healing. Gabor, I'd love to end with. I'd love to hear from you what your. wish, your prayer, your hope, or however. you'd like to word it for humanity is. Right now, today, at this time, if. there's some words that come from your. heart. If we could just. wake up to our possibilities. You know that you know the famous story.

of the Buddha where he's walking along. the road and. somebody sees him with this radiant face. and and confident gait and. he says, "Who are you, a god?" And the. Buddha says, "No, I'm awake.". And. if only we could be awake to our. possibilities. Like in every conflict. on the deepest human level, it's all. unnecessary. We could actually be a human race. together. We could be We could be that. We don't have to hurt ourselves.

We don't have to hurt others. We don't have to take from them, demand. from them. We could be. This is actually possible for all of us. And it's It's possible for all of us as. individuals and for all of us as as as. creatures. Let's just wake up to our. possibilities. It's beautiful. Gabor, thank you so much again for your time, your energy, your presence. And everyone. who's been listening or watching at. home, if you don't already, please do grab a. copy of the book, Myth of Normal,

because. our first and second conversations were. very different and I guide you towards. the book for the deeper resources, the. step-by-step guide. It's I What I try. and avoid doing in these interviews is. minimizing the amount of work it takes. or oversimplifying. what Gabor's beautiful work does in his. deep books because. I believe he and everyone else would. want you to. take those steps. So, I I wish you all.

the best in your journey of trauma, illness, and healing. And uh Gabor, I thank you for your work. and your contributions today as well and. forever to humanity. Well, it's always. so um peaceful to be with you and. believe me these days I I enjoy you know. ways of peace. So, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, Gabor. Thank you. If you loved this episode, you'll love. my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on. understanding your trauma and how to. heal emotional wounds to start moving on.

from the past. Everything in nature. grows only where it's vulnerable. So, a. tree doesn't grow where it's hard and. thick, does it? It grows where it's soft. and green and vulnerable.