Cynthia Erivo: "I Was Working To Prove That I Was Worth Loving" #1 Way To Know it's time to LEAVE!

the number one health and wellness. podcast. J Shetty. J Shetty. The one, the only J Shetty. You were literally just walking me. through your schedule. Yes. And I want to start with just how your. life has been a whirlwind. First of all, you shot two movies, not one. And you were traveling the world. Obviously, we all saw the press store, which was absolutely insane and amazing. and crazy. You were performing at the. Oscars. like, you know, it's just. unbelievable. And then I was asking you.

like, have you even had the moment to. take a break? Not not really, but I've been trying to. make sure that I put some time in to. just sort of breathe. I went from the. Oscars the day after the Oscars. I went. to South Africa and I was shooting the. movie. I haven't completed the movie. yet, but I'm going to go back and. finish. But I had finished that set of. it and then I went to London. But within. that time whilst I was in South Africa, I was lucky enough to have like just a. couple of days where I didn't need to be.

on set. And so I would literally use. those days to rest. And I don't mean. going to do things and using them for my. own like literally staying in bed and. resting cuz I hadn't done that for a. really long time. And I I realized that. my my body and my brain and my heart. really needed it. So I sort of fed. myself like that. just stopped for a. second. What I'm trying to do, because I. know it is going to ramp up again and.

get crazy again, even before the next. movie comes out and with this album and. all of the things that are happening. this year alone before the end of the. year, I know it's going to get insane. So, I think I'm trying to be conscious. about how much rest I put in and how I. put my my schedule. So, I there are. times where I just this day is going to. be for rest. Actually, we don't need to. do that there. Let's move it to this day. so that there's a consecutive amount of. time to sleep, time to just be cuz I. think it's important and I think it.

makes me a healthier person. What do you do to keep yourself so. healthy and fit and alert because your. work so demanding not just the travel, but we saw your performance. We saw the. behind the scenes. We saw the audition. tape. It's so physically, mentally, and. emotionally challenging. like what are. you doing on top of everything you just. said that to really stay. I'm really picky about how I feed. myself. So it's I take my vitamins every. day and that sounds very very pedantic. and it sounds like almost like a kid but.

I do take vitamins every single day. I. make sure I'm eating in the right way. when I fly and this is not please all. airlines do not blame me if people stop. eating food. Please I want you to eat if. you need to. But I don't eat on planes. I bring my food with me because I I. really need to know what I'm putting in. my body. And usually when I land, I go. straight to something. I don't usually. get the chance to sort of stop and. reset. I have to go from one thing to. another almost immediately. I drink tea. I do not drink alcohol ever. And that's.

just because that's how my body works. Uh I'm a vegan. I don't really eat meat. because I can't process it. And I've. learned that over the years. And so it. has taken time to get to this place to. where I know what is right for [snorts]. me and I have good people around me uh. who will listen to me when I say. actually I think it's a good time to not. do this today. It's about really being. practical about how you take care of. yourself and what you put in your body. and and when you get rest and I'm not. always the best when it comes to rest. I.

have to focus when it comes to that. I. actually have to concentrate on making. sure I put rest in. But I try. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. Are. you good at slowing down? No, I'm terrible. I'm really bad at. slowing down and and but I'm good when I. am slow. You know what I mean? You know, sometimes people get really antsy about. not going somewhere when they are still. I'm good at being still when I need to. be still, you know? So, once I get the. chance to be still, I'm I'm not going. anywhere. But that's also taken time.

You know, I haven't always been. good at being in one place and okay with. not going anywhere. But now I'm really. good at it because I know how valuable. it is for me. Yeah. What got you there? Because you're. so right. I think a lot of us, everyone. will say, "It takes me 3 days to even. switch off." And by the time you switch. off, you're like, "Your vacation's over. and now you're going back to work.". Like, what was it that helped you get to. that space of how you just so. beautifully said, "You know what? I. actually now after some work actually.

feel like I can be still and I I can be. present." Like what what was that that. got you there? I felt like I was missing things. I. think even in this last sort of year or. two I had to figure out how to be really. really present in what was going on and. what's happening and also whilst I was. shooting I was writing this album so it. meant that I lots of thought was. happening lots of looking back on things. and remembering and you can't really do. that if you aren't still sometimes when. you're sat in a in a studio and you have.

to write you can't go anywhere and so. learning that practice and doing that. has really sort shone a light on the. ways in which I wasn't good at being. still at times and how I was missing. certain things, not really being present. in the moment and enjoying what was. going on. Strangely enough, doing all of. those red carpets and things made me. forced me to sort of be present and be. with whoever I was talking to at that. moment. So, I think what I wanted to do. is lean into what that felt like for.

elongated periods of time. And for me. right now, an elongated period of time. could be anything from like one day to. three days. Like that's an elongated. period of time for me. But. but it it means that when I do get those. opportunities, I can actually be there. Yeah. Like and be okay with doing nothing. Yeah. Because sometimes doing nothing is doing. enough. What you're saying is so true that I. feel like if you are where your feet are. Yeah. then you'll always be where your feet. are. So, if you're on the red carpet and.

that's where you are, then when you're. off, that's where you are. And I think a. lot of us and and I've struggled with. this in the past and and got so much. better with it, but when we're at work, we're thinking about the vacation. And. therefore, when we're on the vacation, we're thinking about work because that. inattention bleeds. And you can't say, "I want to be attentive on vacation, right?". And I want to be inattentive at work. because they both feed into each other. And I love hearing about the athlete in. you though like even when you were. talking about food and water and and you.

are an athlete and so are all of us that. demand a lot from our body and I had. this really interesting thing that. happened to me this week where. I did not go to South Africa or London. [laughter]. but I did my mini version of what you do. but this week I went to I was in. Palm Springs, Vegas, Boston and New York. 4 days four work events I was only in a. city for if 12 hours. Yeah, and that's. normal for me, too. And so, I was moving. and I got back at like 1:00 a.m. or I. got into bed at 1:00 a.m. on Monday.

morning. and I got up at 8 to Well, I got up a. bit early and then at 8 I was working. out. and it was this really amazing feeling I. had. I got in the gym. and I [clears throat] felt amazing after. doing it. and I was like, "Oh, wow." Like all of. this stuff works. Like the vitamins, they work. It really does. Like it all works. Like people do it for. a reason. It's pattern as well. It's pattern. Yeah. Yeah. So once you. get your body into a it's almost like. ritual. Your body needs a particular. kind of ritual to keep it going. Doesn't. matter where you are in the world or. what you do in the like as long as there.

are certain things that don't change. Your body will thank you for it. You. know it doesn't matter where I am in the. world. I will always have my vitamins. Like I have like packets I take around. with me, right? And I always have my. tea. So I bring tea with me wherever I. go. It's the same tea. So I'm never sort. of thinking, oh, I have to have this or. no, that's the tea that I have. I like. Ruffles chips, so I'll always take. Ruffles chips with me wherever I go. That's my sort of like guilty pleasure. I'm going to have that. But it means that or there's a. particular protein bar. So I'm not.

searching for something else that. doesn't aid me, actually helps me. I. will always know where the gym is, so I. can actually go and do my long walk or. my long run. That way there are things. that are already set in place that don't. take up much room, but they do serve a. really great purpose. It means I can. show up and be ready wherever I am. And. when I get back home, I can always slot. back in. And like honestly, the jet lag. should be crazy, but it is not. I woke.

up this morning at like 7:00. I I have. like a little oneperson um infrared. sauna, but I also take a I bought an. infrared sauna blanket which I take with. me wherever I go cuz it means that I can. also heal from the inside out. And the. the wonderful thing about that is that. you can get if I can't run then I'll get. an assortment or I'll do both. But those things don't change. And so if. you can keep healthy habits that keep. you moving and working and the your. system is still alive and alert, then.

those things should stay. I think. sometimes we underestimate what what it. is to form good habits. Those things really help and they've. really helped me a lot. Yeah. And they take a long time to form, but once you have them, then you like realize the value of them. and then you're like, I don't even want. to miss them. That's right. even if I don't love doing. them or even if they're hard, you're. like, I know I'll feel better. afterwards. Yeah, I love that. I heard. somewhere you said that you've always. been an overachiever. Yeah. And I was trying to understand like.

what's the difference between achieving. and overachieving? So I can Okay, make a song. Good. Do an. album. Good. The standard album is. usually maybe 10 to 13 songs. My album. has 20 songs on it, right? You can spend. 6 months doing something. I'll probably. spend a year doing it. Someone says, "Write a book." And you get someone to. help you write the book. I'll go, "Actually, I would really like to write. this myself." And this is not. necessarily the healthiest. I preface it.

with that. For me, I think I I'm always. constantly. pushing to do what's the one thing. further from uh the the norm. Like, you've done something really amazing, but how can I be more than amazing? How. can I push more? How can I do more? How. much can I exert myself more to get more. out of the thing that I'm doing? That. for me is overachieving. And that isn't. always a healthy way to think, but for. me, I think it's become a habit. And so.

I've had to find healthy ways of doing. that. Mhm. So like if I am going to do 20 songs, how am I going to make it easy for. myself after that to let go of it for a. second and take a break? Or if I am. going to run three like for 3 hours, am. I going to feed myself to replenish. myself the way I need to after running. those 3 hours? It's the balance has to. be addressed when when you're doing. something like that.

No, that makes a lot of sense. Where. does that drive come from? Where's that. ambition come from? Have you always had. it since day one? I think I have always had it. I think. it's first came from my mom cuz I think. she has that sort of drive and want to. achieve. Uh she's I'm raised by a single. mom and she really I'm not entirely sure. how she managed to do all the things she. was able to do. This is, you know, a. woman who immigrated from Nigeria when. she's in her 20ies. Got her degree in.

nursing. Went from nursing to being a. health visitor, which is a big massive. jump. Owned her own home, had her own. car, but we're not middle- class by any. means, working-class people who didn't. have very much, but my mom was always. pushing to make sure that she could have. and that we could have. So I think I. watched and witnessed her do that on her. own and so picked that sort of those. habits, those traits up and then I think. in my teenagehood. after experiencing some traumatic things.

that sort of also became a driving force. too, which is not necessarily the best. thing cuz it can't sustain, but it's. sort of like I'll show everybody that I. can do this. And that sort of drove a. lot of it. And then it didn't sustain. Then I was like, actually, I really want. to do this for myself and I love what. I'm doing. And if I'm going to do. something, I want to do it to the very. best of my abilities. It stopped being. about what I saw my mom do, which was. wonderful, and stopped being about.

proving to people, and is now about like. sort of like eking out the maximum. amount of joy from something. by doing the most I can do with it, you know, by learning all of the details. that I can about whatever it is I'm. doing. How do I connect the most? And in. connecting the most, it makes me be the. best I I can be in it. You know what I. mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I I. want to talk about all those transitions.

because they're so beautiful. And. I literally was having this conversation. with a friend the other day about my. mom. And so my dad was less present. It's not. that he wasn't there, but he was less. present when I was growing up. And so my mom was the bread winner of. the house. Yeah, she made us breakfast in the morning, dropped us to school, me and my sister, made us a packed lunch, went to work, picked us up from school, came home, made us dinner, went out. again to work, and came home. And I. still have no idea. I have no idea how.

she did it. And we always had a fresh. dinner every day, a fresh lunch every. day, a fresh breakfast, never had to eat. leftovers. She'd always believed that a. home-cooked meal was so important. And I. look at my mom now and I just think like. how did you do it? Like and and I. completely agree with you. My work ethic. I think comes from watching my mom. So I. can relate to that. But it's like I saw. my mom after doing all of that working. in the evening. because she had to and I saw her like. turning up when it was really really. hard. Yeah. And it's amazing how that rubs off on.

you and and how you mirror what you see. at home. And again like you said it's. not that. it was the healthiest. She had to do it. for survival. It wasn't a choice. It's. not a choice. Yeah. And so we are lucky that we have. the ability to slow down or have more. resources or whatever it may be. But it. is amazing how much our parents work. ethic. like like rubs offs. Yeah. Like it. becomes part of the DNA without you even. realizing it's part of your DNA anymore, you know. Yeah. What were some of those if you're. comfortable sharing what were some of. those teenage traumas that you went.

through? Oh no. I've spoken about it honestly. Uh. when when I was 16 my dad and I went. through a rural separation. he no longer. wanted to be a part of my life. And that. was like a big turning point for me. because I had to. figure out what that meant. And it for a. long time that sort of fueled the way I. would work because you end up working to. prove to someone that you're worthy of. being loved or worthy of being looked. after or wanted. And that's that was.

like a big moment for me in in general. And I think that it's sort of like a. formative years. I think I was 16 when. it happened. So, it really was a turning. point and and a seminal moment in my. growth that it happened in and it took. time to get over the hill or over the. hump of that and forgive and let go and. be able to do things not for that. purpose but for me. Had to sort of. really do some thinking and working to.

shift that habit. But I'm very glad I. did because it was it didn't it doesn't. sustain you. It can only last for so. long and it and it means that the work. you're doing not on purpose but it comes. from the wrong place. And for a while it. worked, but then it didn't. And when. when it doesn't, you have to figure out. how to make it work from something else. And it feels a lot better to not be. working from that place anymore. Maybe. we're meant to be with someone for a.

season and then we move on and find the. person that we're meant to be with for. life. I saw very clearly that we weren't. growing together anymore and that we. weren't right for one another anymore. and that us being together would. actually be to the detriment of the both. of us. I've had to learn to be okay. [music]. with the idea that if someone leaves, they are meant to. And if they're meant. to come back, they will.

I believe [snorts] that travel is one of. the greatest gifts that we've ever been. given. And Chase Sapphire Reserve has. been my gateway to the world's most. captivating destinations. When I use my. Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get three. times points on travel and dining and. even access to one-of-a-kind experiences. like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the. card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by. the Club at select airports nationwide.

Travel is more rewarding with Chase. Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover. more at chase.com/sapphire. Reserve. Cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase Bank, NA member FDIC. Subject to. credit approval. Terms apply. [snorts]. There's a really beautiful system in in. Eastern philosophy that talks about how. you can do anything from three different. modes. So you have the mode of ignorance which. means you're doing things out of fear.

and insecurity. So you're doing something because you're. scared. You're doing something because. it's not survival. It's it's even like. more negatively motivated than that. Then the second is the mode of passion. which is what you're saying which is. like I'm going to prove someone wrong. I'm going to do it for a result. I want. to do it because I want to do it with. that energy and then finally you come to. love or duty or joy or bliss. and what I love about what you're saying. is you've taken step up the ladder.

because I think sometimes we make. ourselves feel bad like. oh if I'm doing something to prove. someone wrong I shouldn't do it because. that's a bad motive and it's but it's. like sometimes that's the only thing. that can if that's the only motive you. know what else are you supposed to do. you have to use it and if you use it to. make good work, then you use it to make. good work. And I think what we want to. make sure of when we're doing that is. that at some point we're okay to allow. that to be what it was and to move on.

from it, you know, cuz if and and. everyone has their own time. I had it my. time and someone else will be still. working in from that mode and if it's. still working for them, it's still. working for them. But at some point they. will come to a realization that I don't. know if this works for me anymore and it. doesn't feel as good anymore. So when. you and it's about noticing when it. doesn't feel the way you want it to feel. anymore. And so what am I now searching. for? Am I searching for joy? Am I. searching for bliss? Am I searching for. contentment? And if that's the case,

then it has to come from somewhere else. And so you seek to work in a different. way. Yeah. How do you hold your hand with. such grace? Like when you talk about. these things, it feels like you've like. held your hand through it, which is like. a really beautiful visual to have. because I think what we're good is doing. it as humans is. as soon as something doesn't serve us, we're like, oh, I've been getting it. wrong for 3 years, now I'm going to get. it right. And it's like, well, no, that served you. Like even if it wasn't. sustainable, as you rightly said,

it served you and it was important and. it mattered. Yeah. So, I think what I'm saying is if. someone's listening right now and. they're like, Cynthia, you know what? I've spent the last 3 years trying to. prove my parents wrong. I've spent the. last 5 years trying to prove my ex. wrong. I've spent the last seven years. trying to prove my teachers wrong at. school or whatever it may be, but I know it's not sustainable. Like, I. hear you in that place. How would you. encourage people to hold their hand. through that transition into rising but.

not. sometimes I get the question what would. you give your what advice would you give. your younger self or what would you say. to your younger self if you could meet. her or is there anything you would. there's three different questions but. then the other question is would you. change anything if you could go back my. answer is always I would never change. anything because I think that every step. we take even the things that we think. are wrong turns are the teacher. They're they're the way we get to where. we get to. You know what I mean? If I. was to change something, I don't know.

that I would be sat here in front of. you. I think some of what we might think. of missteps were the steps I was. supposed to take. So, if you're at home. and you're watching this and you're. thinking, "Oh, but I've been doing this. and I know it's not sustainable, but I. but how do I move from that?" Well, you. take your time. It will come. And if. that's what's um feeding you right now, if that's the way, if that's the thing. that gets you up out of bed and gets you. energized to move forward, then keep. using it. And when you realize, oh,

actually, maybe today I'll do it from a. place of I want to cheer someone up. That is as much of that's love as well. So, it's just taking small decision, changing your mind bit by bit. And don't. be so hard on yourself because you've. chosen other things to encourage. yourself to move forward and to do well. if you haven't hurt anyone by using the. the pain that you've been through, by. using the hurt that you've been through, by using the rejection that you've.

experienced, by using the shame that. you've experienced, and you've managed. to transmute all of that into energy. that makes you create positive work. Well, then you've done something really. good because technically you've given. all of those people, all of those things. energy in the most positive way. Now, you get to find a way to give yourself. positive energy. So, I would say pat. yourself on the back for managing to do. that because it takes a lot of time and.

energy to do that and be easy. that. change in the way you move forward will. come because you want it to come. The fact that you even are thinking. about trying to work in a different way. means that you're putting the idea that. you can work in a different way into the. universe and telling yourself we can. work in a different way and one day. you'll work in a different way. Right now what you're doing isn't.

hurting anyone. It costs you more than. it costs anyone else. But you're also. serving yourself the way you know how to. and then you'll find another way to. serve yourself. and other people. It's it's actually such a beautiful. journey to take when you when you kind. of, you know, and when you're going. through it, it always feels like the. worst because. when you're trying to prove someone. wrong, you feel controlled by them. you feel. they still own your journey and you. and the moment you let go you recognize.

oh no I. I'm taking back my control and that I. have ownership. and I think that's what we're all. looking for in life when you think about. as humans I was having a conversation. this morning with one of my friends. who's an incred like you know one of the. greatest therapists on the planet and we. were just having a just having a. friendly conversation but we were saying. I don't think humans even know what they. want anymore. like we think we want happiness, but do. we really like is that what we're. looking for? Or do we want validation or. do we want approval or do we want love?

Like what do we want? And I think as we're talking about right. now, I'm thinking about it, what we. really want is to feel agency and. autonomy and control over our lives and. and not feel like we're living for. someone else and not feel like we're. trying to. because even if you're trying to prove. someone wrong, you're still living for. them, right? That's right. And I think we want to feel like, no, I'm living for me. Yeah. I love the the idea that we're. sort of trying to figure out what we. want. Do we want happiness? Do we want? But but actually the idea that we're. simply seeking agency over our lives.

allows us to own all of those things. So. yes, we do want happiness, but maybe. it's contentment, but also we want to. have agency over the sadness that we. have. So it's not because of someone. else, but we we can allow ourselves to. feel something. And then we can decide. when we actually want to damp down that. feeling, let it go. We can let that sort. of dissipate for ourselves because we. have the agency over it. We have the. agency of of what we choose to feel. happy over or if we are feeling grief. then it's our grief not someone else's. grief you know that I mean takes time to.

realize [laughter]. but it but it's that that I think is the. ultimate goal for most of us to be able. to decide no actually this is my life. and I'm choosing to feel and live this. way for me first and then I can use the. energy that I I'm saving by having. agency over my life for good that will. serve other people as well. That's I. think once we can be in in true. ownership of who we are and what we do.

for ourselves, there's more space for everyone else. Do you think that journey was harder for. you cuz you've talked about how like you. always felt like you didn't fit in. Oh yeah. Like. I think I had to come to terms with the. fact that I don't think I'm ever going. to fit in and why would I want to? But I. think it was when you're young, it. doesn't feel as good because you really. do want to fit. You do want to be a part. of something. But I think that as I've. grown and as as I've learned my.

difference and the not feeling like I. fit in has actually really helped me. become who I want to be. And I think if. I was the same as everybody else, you. wouldn't know me, you know. And I think. my not fitting has forced me to get to. know myself deeply and learn about who I. am and what makes me tick and to be. honest about the things that sort of. like trigger me or don't trigger me or. the things that make me tick and the.

things that make that bring me joy and. the things that like energize me. I was. talking to someone yesterday and I I. said to them, I I can sometimes tell. when I walk into a room when someone. wants me there or not. And my tendency, a terrible tendency is to sort of almost. shut down immediately because I want to. be in a room where someone wants me to. be in the room with them. I want to be. able to share that. And why don't we. maybe shift that and change that and. maybe you walk in with the energy of. openness and see if you can shift the. energy. Maybe don't expect the energy.

when you walk in. Maybe maybe try and. change that energy when you get there. And I hadn't thought of that before. And. I thought that's something that I maybe. 10 years ago wouldn't have been open to. hearing cuz the automatically is well if. they don't want me here, what's why. don't they want me here? What's wrong? Have I done something wrong? As opposed. to maybe they've just had a bad day. Maybe they woke up on the wrong side of. the the bed and they just don't have the. energy right now. So maybe you feed the. energy into the room and maybe that. might shift things. And I think because.

I've started to learn and I've been in. possession of the knowledge that. [clears throat] my difference isn't. something that separates but can. connect. Wow. Maybe it means that using that. difference in places allows the space to. open up a little bit more, you know? I love that. That's such a cool idea. and and I couldn't agree with it more. It's so important. I think we do live in. a world right now that's always like. well they don't want me there or they.

don't like me and and we're almost just. giving away our agency right. because what you just said that. statement is claiming back our agency. and saying well yeah they may not want. me there but I want to be there and I'm. going to walk in as if I belong. Yeah. I didn't walk in thinking I don't. want them there. So maybe if if I let. them know well I want you here. They'll. go oh I'm wanted. So well maybe we can. share that space. you know, there's ways. to to shift the conversation, shift the. energy wherever you are. And and I think. us as human beings, sometimes we we put.

it on the other person to do that when. actually if you're confident enough. about what you bring, you can actually. shift and share yourself. I've seen that so many times. It just. Well, and I see it when I'm on the road. Yeah, I see it through. I was uh speaking at. an event on Sunday. and they had like um what is. [clears throat] it like when you're on. set and there's food for everyone like. a sharing table? Like a round table? Yeah. Like just like that kind of thing. It was like for all the it was for the.

helpers, the volunteers, the speakers, like everyone to just take food. And there was this lady there and I. mentioned to her that I was plant-based. and I was like, could you just walk me. through the options? She did it with so much enthusiasm. Like. I asked her just a really basic. question. I was I was nice, but I wasn't. I was just like, "Hey, how are you?" I. was like, "Hey, how's it going? Like, I'm plant-based. Could you help me out?". And I was fine. Like, my energy was. okay. Like, maybe my energy was. [laughter] fine. Like, I was neutral. It wasn't positive. It was negative. It was just easy. And she just responded with She was like.

a mom. Like, I felt like she had that. motherly energy of like, "What do you. want? Like, this is plant-based and this. and can I get you a drink?". And I said to I was with a. just life and it's not her job was not. easy. She wasn't doing something that was. physically easy. She wasn't doing. something where it's probably a. thankless task like. but she was so passionate about it. And. I was and I said to her I was like I. hope you just know like you made my day. And it was it's always people like that. that you just kind of bump into. Yeah. And and I was like, we've got to become.

better as humans. at noticing it. Yes. And telling them that. Yeah. Because we would notice it if they. weren't like that. So if she had. responded to me and be like, "Oh, yes, over there.". Yeah. Then you would. I would have been a stro, right? You I'd. be like I probably wouldn't. But I know. a few years ago, but it's the thing that you would like. it would you take it with you, you know? Yeah. You take it with you. You're like, "Oh god, why are they so like what's. wrong with Right." And we all carry. that. But when someone does something. amazing, you kind of take it for granted. and you go, "Oh, yeah, of course they're. just being nice.". The thing is, I think we sometimes take.

for granted that that kind of energy is. infectious. It is. truly, you know, it's the simple sort of. act of smiling at someone in the street, right? That smile will pass on. It'll go. from one person to another person to. another person cuz you don't know who. you're smiling at. And if that person, if you're smiling at someone who's had a. bit of a rough day and they go, "Oh, someone's noticed me and they smiled at. me." Well, you'll remember that person. smiled at me. And then you might smile. and that smile might pass on to someone. else and you don't know who you're. smiling, how far that smile goes. And. what we are not very good at is telling.

other people, hey, this person smiled at. me in in the street and it was really. sweet and I don't know who they were but. it was really lovely because that energy. is also infectious. What we normally do. is that she like she bumped into me and. I don't know why but like she or he said. that and it wasn't really nice that we. we pass that energy on instead of the. energy that brightens. We are better at. sort of sharing the energy that doesn't. And as humans who have to share a.

planet, we should probably get better at. sharing what's right. Cuz yes, we we're not always going to go. through great times, but it's the little. things that can move us from a place of. darkness to a place of light. Yeah, I love that. Have you Have you. heard of something called the frequency. illusion? So, the frequency illusion is this idea. It's the idea of like if I'm thinking. about buying a red car, I now see red. cars everywhere. Or like if I learned a.

new word [clears throat] and now I hear. everyone saying that word or whatever it. may be. And so the frequency illusion is. when you start to notice something, you. start to notice it more. And we think that the world suddenly has. more red cars or the world suddenly is. more intellectual because they're using. this word. The truth is the world hasn't. changed. You just notice it more. That's right. And the brain is wired to do that. And. what you just pointed out is that that. it's not about this isn't positive. thinking and this is not like toxic. positivity. What it is is whatever I.

notice, I'm going to notice more of it. So if I only notice when people frown. and people kind of, you know, push me. aside or people don't open the door, I'm. going to notice that more and more and. more. But if I notice the smile on the. street, if I notice the nice gesture. from the lunch lady, if I notice that, then all of a sudden that's how I start. to see things. And it's not faking it. It's not like pretending that the. world's all roses and rainbows and all. that kind of stuff, but it's the idea that our brain is just. wired to notice and whatever you notice,

you'll see more of. I want to talk about your new album. There's no mask. There's no veil. It's. this true transparent, you know, communication. The first time I listened to it, cuz I. was lucky enough to get an early one for. this, I had my eyes closed the whole time. and I just sat and I listened to it in. order as it was. I didn't skip. Yeah, I didn't need to. [laughter]. And it really was just this, it really. felt like a divine experience. Like it. was very. I like music and I love music, but it.

was very different. And it was different because it felt. familiar to my soul. Yeah. And and that's why when I was messaging. you about it last night before you were. coming, I was like, it was divine. It. was transcendent because it it was it. just it felt otherworldly in the. experience, but then felt really. familiar and human. Yeah. And I've got so many questions. about it, but I want to let you you felt. I felt like there was something you were. going to say that I want to let you. know. I think I knew when I was going. into it that I I wanted to make.

something that felt like connective. tissue to who I was. And part of me was. deeply petrified to write this album. just because I knew it was going to be. so transparent and really human in the. subjects and just extremely truthful. But I didn't really know how else to. write it. So I just sort of had to let go and just. write. And I think the other worldliness. maybe in the com composition of things,

but even that was a really human. experience. It wasn't I didn't make any. vocal arrangements. There were no. written there's no written music. I. would do it as I was going along. and I. would know what I wanted and then I. would sort of start with a vocal pad and. I would start with a line and that line. would I would repeat the line and we'd. create a stack and then over that stack. I would just create another line and. there was no leaving the booth to write. what the next line was I would as a line. happened I would think of another line.

and sometimes I would distract myself. because the line was creating itself as. I was singing the line before and that. would go on and go on and go on until. there nothing left. So for me, it really. was an experience of pouring. all of myself into it every single time. And I would say to my producer and Will, who's also the engineer on it and was. co-writing with me, that it was always. it always felt really emotional when I. would do the vocal pads. always I always.

felt deeply connected to the music. because it was the rawest form of. vocalizing and making music that I could. think of without any real structure. necessarily. I just knew the emotion. that I wanted and that's what I would. then write over. A lot of these songs. just started with a vocal pad and a. melody and that's what would happen. Yeah. Wow. Has that always been your process.

or was that a new discovery? I think I've always wanted it to be my. process, but I don't think until now. I've been brave enough to do it that. way. I've never done it like this. before. And it felt so easy to do. It. felt like a real natural way of. exercising the music that I that I had. in myself. Yeah. And what did you want people to feel. throughout it? What was you were telling. me earlier about how every song, even. the order and the arc was structured. Yeah. What what was the kind of the emotional. journey you wanted people to go on.

at the beginning? It's it it really is. about heartbreak and. love and loss, but it's also in a way. about me breaking someone's heart or. what we put on ourselves as people in. relationship. the responsibility we put. on ourselves sometimes when we're in. relationship but when it's not doesn't. feel right when it's not right and we we. find it hard to to disconnect from those. relationships and we find it hard to. speak about what we're actually feeling. when we're in them and I think I wanted.

people to be okay with admitting when. they're in the wrong space when it isn't. right anymore when you have to go and. also that base feeling of it's your. fault as adult, [laughter] you know, cuz. sometimes we we feel a lot of guilt for. saying that, but because there. relationships are made of two, three, however many people are in your. relationship, but it's never it's not. onesided. Relationships are made of the people.

that are in them. And what happens. within those relationships are made of. the people within them, even when you. don't think they are. If you dig deep. enough, you'll find that you both have. responsibility in there. And so I think. there was sort of like the assuming of. responsibility and also the the. willingness to be like also your. responsibility is this too. This is how. I fel felt but also I understand that I. made you feel that way. And then I. wanted people to know that that it's in.

that next section there's the discovery. of something new, something passionate. within yourself and with another person. and how human that is cuz sometimes we. get very ashamed of talking about. passion and desire. And I wanted to talk. about that. And I think passion and. desire aren't necessarily things that. people associate me with, but they are. also very human experiences which I have. experienced as someone who's, you know, in her late 30s. You know, I think it's.

important for people to know that that. is a part of me. And that third section. is about when your feet touch the. ground. After all the desire and the. passion and the heaviness of what that. can be, that when your feet touch the. ground, you fall in love for real. That it isn't just about the other. person, but it really is with you as. well to fall in love again with who you. are. That sometimes within our.

relationships, we can lose ourselves a. little bit, but then eventually, if you. want, you can come back to yourself. And. that fourth section is about. forgiveness, which is what this album is. called. It is about forgiving. the person you were with, the person. that you were, and the person you may. have become because of it. Forgiving the. mistakes that you might have made. because they lead to this place. And I.

guess in the grand scheme of things, it. is really about forgiving yourself and. allowing the fact that your human. experiences. are just that the experiences we have as. human beings that that usher us through. our lives. The things I've been through. have made me really sort of like look. back on. how I've dealt with certain situations. and sometimes I've not necessarily been. my best self.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not a. good human being. And I think sometimes we mistake not. being our best selves with being a bad. human being. And I think sometimes we. have to say that that's not the same. thing. And that we can forgive ourselves for. not being our best selves because we. want to be good human beings. Even just listening to you explain that. Yeah. I mean, I had so many thoughts that went. through my mind. And I was just thinking. about how it's so common for us to start.

hating ourselves and being harsh on. ourselves. when the situation's so complex. But. almost our simple answer is I'm the. problem. It's like if someone breaks up with us, we think I'm the problem. I'm the weak one. It's over. If we choose to end something, we still blame ourselves. That's right. If if you're someone who's. self-reflective enough, you still blame. yourself and you go, "Well, I messed up. I don't deserve love. Maybe I'll never.

get it.". Yeah. And I had a message recently from a. friend who was going through a breakup. and they were just like, "I'm breaking up because I don't think. this helps me grow anymore. It's not. even like there's anything wrong with. it. It's just like it's not right for me. anymore." But they were like, "I'm just. feeling guilty." Yeah. And it is so interesting how such. the topic I'm thinking about our.

audience right now. One thing I've been. trying to ask people to help people is. have you ever been heartbroken? Yeah. And. what was the process or what was the one. thing that helped you live through that? because I think so many of our audience. are in that position and they come to me. for that a lot. What was helpful to you? I have definitely been heartbroken in. separate occasions. and because I this happened in different. parts of my life. I I reacted in.

different ways. Earlier on um I really. needed my friends. I really needed. people around me to just surround me. with love. And for me, music is has. always been the the balm. So I would. listen and I would sort of like try to. feed myself with the things that would. give me good energy. And for me that. sometimes is like running, working out, and eating good food, speaking to good. people, having good experiences,

creating newer memories on my own. And. that really was the thing that would. help me with heartbreak, but also like. dealing with the fact that I felt. heartbroken and admitting, oh, this. broke my heart. And then uh later on, it. really was about I love a conversation. I like real closure. So, I want to have. like an actual real conversation. And. I've always, not necessarily always, but. I've tried to in most of the. relationships that have that have ended.

and it's not me ending them have given. an opportunity for conversation like to. talk about it and I've tried to be as. honest and I've asked the person to be. honest about what it is that has. happened whether or not that's taken not. always and then sometimes it's taken. sort of later on fine but it's really I. think if you can have your conversation. have the conversation and and try to end. it as amicably as you possibly can and.

if you can't then I know this sounds. really strange but have the conversation. but just not with that person like what. would that conversation in your head be? How would you have had that. conversation? What would you have said. if you had the opportunity to sit in. front of someone say hey this really. hurt my feelings and this is this is. where I am with this right now and I'm. really finding it hard to deal with or. my heart's broken and I need it to heal. and have those conversations. Write. those feelings down. The one thing you.

cannot do is keep a hold of that and. swallow the feeling and never let it out. because I think it it grows. It becomes. something else. A heartbreak that isn't. shared, heartbreak that isn't exorcised, I think becomes resentment and becomes. sour, you know, cuz heartbreak's a real. emotion. It's actually actually. strangely quite a lovely beautiful. emotion. Means you're alive. If you have. a heart to break, it means your heart is. beating.

So, it's not a bad emotion. However, if. you harbor it and never let it go and. never share it, just like you share. love, just like you share happiness and. you share joy, then it becomes something else. We don't. uh keep joy to ourselves. We can't. It's. impossible to. It sort of comes out of. us whether we like it or not. We don't. keep love to oursel. We want to give out. love. We want to share love because that. only multiplies. If we keep heartbreak.

to ourel, it becomes something else. It. mutates, metastasize, and it it sticks. to us. And what that does is stops us. from being able to, if you don't mend. your heart, it can't be whole again for. something else. And I'm assuming that. anyone who has their heart broken wants. their heart to be whole again so that. they can share their heart with someone. else again. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I love that. I love. that. That really resonated that idea of. how.

emotions are not meant to be held on to, right? And the sad and the tough ones are the. only ones that we do. We hold. hold on to tightly. And if there was. someone who was feeling like, "Oh my. god, there's only this much joy in the. world. I'm going to hold on to it.". Which we do sometimes as well. We're. like, "Oh, no, no. I'm I'm going to be. really scarce about joy.". We know that doesn't work either because. it disappears. It goes away. And yeah, it's so interesting that idea of why we. hold on to the hard emotions and don't. hold on to the beautiful ones.

And it it limits us. And it's when I'm. thinking about your album and that idea. of what you just said of. recognizing that we can forgive. ourselves for ways in which we want to. be better. Yeah. But that doesn't make us a bad person. Yeah. I think you're so right that as. humans we've got good at making it this. binary black and white choice of I'm. either a good person or I'm a bad. person. And actually I've seen people with good.

intentions do more bad. because they're trying so hard. to be a good person. rather than taking that like I remember. a guy. that I was mentoring a while ago. He was. saying like, "Oh, I don't want to break. up with her because it will hurt her.". And I was like, "But you're hurting. yourself and you're hurting her for. longer because you don't want to be seen. as a bad person.". So, you'd rather be seen as a good guy. Yeah. Hurt her long term and hurt yourself.

And by the way, we all go through this. You don't want to let people down. And so, it's like how how did you. reconcile those two things? Because I. think it's a very human thing to like we. don't want to let people down. We want. people to be happy. We don't want to. break someone's heart. But the reality. is. that is how the way things go, right? I think in the long term, so when I when. I had broken up with someone, when it. was my choice to break up with someone, I saw very clearly that we weren't. growing together anymore and that we.

weren't right for one another anymore. and that us being together would. actually be to the detriment of the both. of us. If I'm in something that I'm that. I'm miserable in, that I'm not happy in, then the likelihood is that is going to. grow within the relationship that I'm. going to continue to be miserable and. that person is also going to experience. the most miserable version of myself. And that isn't good for anyone because I.

I'm not fertile ground for happiness if. I'm doing that. which means it removes. the ability for the other person also to. be in a relationship that's happy and I. would rather remove myself from the. situation so that they can go on and. find whoever it is that they're meant to. be with because we are we will find the. people that we're meant to be with and. maybe we're meant to be with someone for. a season and then we move on and find. the person that we're meant to be with. for life or or maybe we're meant to be. with several people for a season and.

that's what we're meant to do or we're. meant to learn from the people that. we're with to become the people that. we're supposed to be before we end up in. the relationship we're supposed to end. up in. And I just knew that I couldn't. continue to pretend to be something I. wasn't within a relationship that wasn't. it wasn't feeding me in the way I needed. it to. And because of that, I knew it. wasn't going to be feeding the other. person. Yeah, that resonates so strongly as. well. It's really hard though. You feel like.

such a let down for doing it. You feel, I hate to use this word, but you feel. like a villain for doing it, for hurting. someone, but some sometimes, and this. may be a hard thing to say, but. sometimes hurting someone actually aids. the growth of another person. We when we. experience hurt, we are forced to grow. Again, it is another human emotion that. we have to experience as we grow because. it teaches us about what we are, how to.

react or how to soothe, how to use the. hurt to turn into something else, right? We're all going to be hurt at some point. in our lives. That is not something that. we can prevent. We're all going to hurt. someone in our lives. That's also. something we cannot prevent. We are also. always going we are all going to be hurt. ourselves in general. It's not going to. that's something we can't prevent and. it's not something we run headlong into. But when it presents itself we also have.

to be brave enough to be the people that. either experience it or serve it. Not. vindictively, not because we want to, but because it's sometimes necessary. to begin again. Yeah. And I love what you just said. there that sometimes. we hurt people. and sometimes people hurt us. [clears throat]. and then sometimes we hurt ourselves. and all of that. you can't prevent that's going to happen.

in the natural flow of life. and all we can learn to do. is those people that we hurt. try to help in the best way possible and. recognize that. like I'm thinking about as you're. talking about it whenever I've if I've. broken up with someone. Yeah. There's no part of me that was excited. about it or happy about it or felt good. about it. Not only because. I believe I'm a good person and want to. be a good person, but because I don't. like causing anyone pain, but it made me what it changed in me was.

it made me more responsible in the. future. of how I was with someone and how I. conducted myself and thought about a. relationship. When I was a teenager, probably fell too quick. probably like. didn't really recognize what I grew up. now. I need to slow things down. Like one of the things I say to see so. many people is don't fall in love too. fast. because when you fall in love too fast,

that's when love is blind, right? That's when you fall. You haven't learned the person yet. and you haven't really understood like. you understand their. you understand what they like, but you. don't really know anything about them. beyond that. you you understand very. little information about them. But it's such a hard process to forgive. ourselves for breaking someone's heart. and to forgive ourselves. for when someone breaks our heart, right? Cuz if someone breaks, why didn't I see? How comes I didn't. know? All of those things. All of those things. you sometimes you won't see. And also.

sometimes it's nothing to do with you. Sometimes it's not you. It's that the. other person needs something else. And. that's okay. And sometimes it might be. the other way around. Sometimes it isn't. them. you need something else. That That's actually it. Yeah. That's. it. Like that that what you just said. there, that is actually what it is. That. when you're breaking up with them, it's actually all to do with you. And when they broke up with you, it was. all to do with them. And the problem is in both those. situations, we make it all about us. It's our fault we messed up.

Right. Right. Right. You know, or we blame it on them as. well. Yeah. No, it's fascinating. There. was a couple of lyrics from the album. that I I just I had to talk about. So, this is from the song that's already. out. Replay. Yes. Uh, and I'm going to I should let you do. this, but I'll do it anyway to to remind. you. I'm the best overachiever. There's not. anyone like me. And you think that was a. good thing till you're told that's not. healthy. You spend every waking hour working hard. to write your will. Patiently waiting. for validation till you're empty and.

unfulfilled. So powerful. I love it. It's even just. reading it, it's like and then getting. to hear you sing it. the the part that I. was really that really stood out to me. because I think so many people struggle. with it today is this waiting for. validation. Yeah, there's such a. we all want to be validated. I've been thinking about this a lot. Yeah. What is the right type of validation to. crave and what's the unhealthy. validation to crave? I I don't even know. because I I think all of it is healthy. and all of it is unhealthy to be honest.

because the only. real validation that matters is what you. feel about yourself on the inside once. it's once you've done something. Do you. see what I'm saying? Like because you're. never really going to please everybody. Everyone is seeing you objectively. They. are they have their own idea of who you. are and what you've been through and the. type of human being you are and the type. of experiences you have. They haven't. lived your experience. So all they have. is what you tell them, right? All they. have is what they what they see of you.

And so as wonderful as it is when people. are lovely and they say complimentary. things and they, you know, love the. musical, there's also the other side. that isn't that and that doesn't and. isn't kind. And and so if we don't take. them in equal measure, then we're. suggesting that one is more important. than the other, but both come from. people who are experiencing you in the. exact same way, right? So why wouldn't you take the bad and the. good for in equal measure, but it.

doesn't feel good to take the bad in. equal measure as the good, right? Yeah. So we we make this more important than. this. So, I honestly think that I spent. a lot of my life trying to. do things like, you know, I was talking. about my my dad and what that felt like. and I was trying to prove to him that I. was lovable and, you know, in the. beginning of this, I was I would do my. work and and I want, you know, whether. it be social media or whether it be.

reviews and you want the good reviews. and you want people to say really nice. things. You want people who you've never. met to love you and that is the driving. force behind the work [gasps]. and in the end it doesn't serve you at. all. It's wonderful. It's lovely to hear. it, but if you don't feel that way about. yourself, if [snorts] you don't believe. in the work you're doing, if you don't. love the skin that you're in, the work. that comes from you, the things that you.

get to say, the the people you get to. meet, if you don't love that work, none. of the comments, none of the lovely. compliments, none of the making someone. finally fall in love with you matters. What it does is come to an empty shell. You have to learn how to fill up. yourself. because that's what fills you. That's. what feels actually good. That's what. actually feels good. Like what is what.

does this work? How does this work serve. you in your life? Does it serve other. people? And I I also think that in doing. of work sometimes we think that it's. only it is about us but it's a cyclical. thing. And I think if you can do the. best you can do in your work, if you can. really pour yourself into the work in. the right way that feels authentic to. who you are, then you can actually serve. that work to other people that you can. actually be of service to other people. And I really I talk about this when it. comes to music, when it comes to.

teaching, when it comes to singing. It's. less about me getting a big applause at. the end of a song. That is lovely. But. that couldn't matter less than actually. looking at someone's eyes in the. audience and knowing that I've connected. with them. Knowing that this song means. the world to this person. That this song. is an expression of what they also might. be feeling. That my being able to sing. something in a way that connects with. someone else that allows them to then.

process something that they've also been. through. That to me is what I love. That. for me is that's the question you. answered that that's actually the best. validation. It's not actually what. people say. It's what I can witness. someone feeling to me that is the best. validation for me. I don't have to wait for that. validation. That's almost instant. It. happens when I speak to someone, when I. sing to someone. A person can't hide how. they feel. You know, even though we. think we can, we actually cannot. It.

shows up in the small minute movements. in our body. It shows up in our faces. It shows up in how we express. It shows. up in how open we are when we're. speaking to a person more than a person. saying, "Oh my god, that was amazing.". Which is lovely. But actually, I'm not. necessarily seeking a 100 thank yous and. 100 your your amazings. I'm not looking. for that. I'm actually looking for how. deeply can I connect with people? How. much can I make people feel? Does this.

mean that someone is going to go and. figure out something in their. relationships with someone? Does this. mean that they're going to finally have. a conversation with that person that. they haven't spoken to for years because. they've been harboring a feeling that. they haven't yet faced? If that is what. comes of my music, my work, teaching, whatever it is, then that's the. validation I want. Right? But what that. speaks about is the other sort that.

you're sort of waiting for people to say. that you're amazing. You're waiting for. people to send like give you like all of. the outward input that you can take, but. eventually. it's this it's that old weird thing. where you see a hundred lovely messages. and you see that one message that isn't. great and everything comes tumbling down. because it isn't based on anything. There's no foundation for it, right? Yeah. Yeah. But if you can connect with. that one person, those 10 people, those. 15 people in the audience, when their. tears are falling and you can hear it in.

the there's something really wonderful. about when it's quiet and you hear that. one person go, you go, "Okay, that person's connected. and they they're feeling something." You. make people feel. then then that's the validation we want. Yeah. Mic drop. Oh, yeah. That Yeah. And I and I feel. that. Yeah. You know, like you I feel that. And as I. was listening to you, I was thinking. sometimes when I'm speaking to a large. group or leading a meditation.

for like maybe sometimes I've been. fortunate enough to lead meditations for. like 5 10,000. 20 30,000 people, maybe even more in in. one time. And I almost in my mind when. I'm leading it, I'll go back to when. there were just 10 people in the room. and when I used to lead meditations for. five people in the room because that's. also. what we all want to feel like we're all. looking for intimacy. deeply. That's what we're seeking is is. intimacy. And we go to these big group.

gatherings to feel and that's what music. does for people is it makes us feel. intimate with the person standing next. to us because we have a shared. experience and I feel intimate with the. person singing it because I feel a. shared experience. and that's what we're all seeking is. this intimacy in this mass. We're still looking for this moment. where I just caught a glimpse of even. someone in the audience. We both kind of. know, we both felt what we just heard. And it's really interesting to me that.

we've confused validation with love. We've confused. attention with affection. We've confused. praise with power and purity. Yeah. But we'll trade it for agilation, adoration, everything else that. doesn't quite hit the spark. Right. Right. Right. And as I was listening to you, I I loved. that for you as your definition.

And I think that's what's so important. is having your definition. of what validation matters to you. because otherwise you'll constantly be. pulled and pushed. by by everything that comes and you'll. run after it wherever it's delivered. Whereas you're really clear like I do. love the applause of course and so do I. I'm the same as you. Wonderful. I love. it. Of course it is. But like when. yesterday when I was flying home and one. of the air stewards came up to me and. was just like don't stop doing what. you're doing. It really makes a. difference. I was just like [laughter]. it's the best thing in the world. That's.

so wonderful because because you know. that you have affected a person. It. isn't just um face value like you have I. use the word infiltrated their nervous. system, [laughter]. right? You're a part of how they now. move through their days. Something about. what you said has affected the way they. now behave towards other people and. behave in their lives. And that is. really really special. Like that's.

actually the core of what what we're. supposed to be doing as human beings. Not even just in my field or your field, but as human beings, what we want to be. able to do is give a person something. that they can take away with them into. their own lives. If we can do that for. me, be beyond anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. And I think. like whether you're a musician, whether. you're a creator, whether you're an.

author, whether you're an entrepreneur. making a product, if you look at your comment section or. your reviews, you'll see people pouring. their heart out who you've impacted, but the mind just wants the next million. followers or the next. 10K in revenue or whatever it is that. you're working towards. And like you. miss the fact that there's a human. who took the time to be like, you. changed something for me, you know? So I I don't know. I've been. thinking about as you were speaking. Yeah, please.

Something came up for me when you were. talking about intimacy. Um there's a. concert hall that I performed in I but. it was in the round and which means that. the stage is sort of. in the center but still in cross arch. which means you have a front of the. stage and then it comes back but behind. you there are people seated watching. from behind. So they they have your head. and your back most for most of it and. then there are people sitting in front.

in the round and I I remember and I I. would always do this whether we like it. or not we want to be seen. So what I would try to do when I'm in. those theaters is before we really. launch into the whole concert, I would. always sing a portion of the music to. the people who would normally just get. the back of my head because what that. says is I see you as well. That's a form. of intimacy to go, "Yes, I see you, but.

I also know that there are people who. are behind me who are who want to be a. part of this as much as as you, and. they're only getting my the back of my. head and the back of my my shoulders, and they're not getting the front of me, which is, you know, our heart is caged. This is the thing I think of. Our heart. is in our in our rib cage and within all. of that." And. but it's in the front. and they get the back. M. so you kind of want to make sure that. they get your heart too that they get to.

see the the front of you where your. heart is placed. right it's here but this is where we. that's where we in our like in. imaginations. this is where it is so you turn to them. and you and you're open so you say hey I. see you and I can see you here and I. know that you're getting the back of my. head but I'm not going to leave you. out I I want you to be a part of this. intimate experience that we're having. together. And I feel like within this. music, that's kind of what I want to do.

Like, we're in the round. And I think a. lot of people have had the back of my. head. and a lot of people have had my the back. of my shoulders and the back of me. And. I I really want for this album to be. like me turning around and going, "Hey, I I I see you and I want you to see my. heart, too, as well." Because I know. that there's a a large amount of people. who seen me and my heart, but there are. some people who who don't know that part. of me and they see the pretty dresses.

and they see me say nice things and all. those things, but I want them to to get. the front of me, too. Yeah. Yeah. You did that in the album like it comes. across. Thank you. It's it's such a invitation. Yeah. Into that intimate space for yourself, for them. And that's why I think like. people are going to listen to this. whether they've just gone through a. breakup or a divorce. They're going to. listen to this if they're just falling. in love. They're going to listen to this album. Yeah. They're going to listen to this. album if they're on their own journey.

They're going to listen to this album. with their friends. Like, I feel like. it's one of those albums. that you're going to experience, not just listen to, not just have on in. the background. And yeah, it's it's it's. so special. A couple more things I. wanted to ask you about. There was. another lyric. Yeah. From replay as well, and you were. mentioning it just there. It was um. this and it's so powerful when you I I'm. a big fan of break like reading lyrics. and I can't cuz there this album is. that. Yeah. There's such a like cuz it's such. mastery as well like for even anyone who.

loves poetry and writing and it's just. but you go daddy trauma has emasculated. all my common sense. So I'm looking. through the lens of an impending. abandonment. All the voices in my head say I'm not. worth the time you spent. So I search for an escape before you. notice your mistake. And I mean I mean it's just beautiful to. even read off the page. Like it's such a. the part that struck out to me there was. the so I'm looking through the lens of. an impending abandonment. I was like.

goes back to what you were just saying. now that people feel that. Yeah. People feel really abandoned by. themselves too. It's also. about feeling abandoned and then taking. that into everything you go into. And so even now sometimes I expect. people to leave. So what the way I move, the way I work, I don't trust people. quickly. I am expecting them to go away. It's sort of like I if I can set myself.

up to know that I'm going to be. abandoned, then I can't be hurt when it. happens. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so what I've had to do over time is. start to trust people and to not t. everything with a brush of abandonment. If a person has to leave, a person has. to leave. That's okay. They're not. abandoning. They're simply leaving, you. know. And and that isn't to say that the.

experience of feeling abandoned isn't. real, but it is al also to say that that. experience of abandonment isn't always. what happens. And for a really long. time, I couldn't tell the difference. And so every time a friend left or I. broke up with a person or a relationship. didn't quite work, I it felt like a a. massive.

uh moment of abandonment. It felt like. the the floor was taken out from. underneath me. And it's it taken a long. time to get to a point where I can trust. that that's not the case. And so what. that would do is stop me from. saying how I really felt in a situation. cuz I didn't want them to go away. Yeah. Wow. You know, like if I'm if I'm not happy. with something, then I wouldn't say cuz. I don't want them to have a reason to. leave. Mhm. You know, or if I didn't want something,

then I wouldn't say I didn't I didn't. want something cuz I was afraid that. they would leave. Right. Uh, and. unfortunately that leads sometimes to. really dangerous situations cuz you. don't speak up. And I've had to learn to. be okay with the idea that if someone. leaves, they are meant to. And if. they're meant to come back, they will, right? Mhm. But sometimes we're very afraid to.

chance it. We're very afraid to let a person go. We. are afraid to let a person go and we. need to be okay with letting people go. because they have their own journey as. well. We don't know what path people are. walking on when they walk into our. lives. We might just be a stepping stone. in their path just like stepping stones. are in their life. And they might just. be a stepping stone in our lives as we.

keep moving forward. If we're not. confident or comfortable enough to let. that be a stepping stone to move on to. the next one, we won't go anywhere. We're stuck. Would you say that's the hardest emotion. you've ever had to face and deal with or. has it been harder? I think that has been because it's shown. up in many different ways for different. people for me. And I think it's always. that's always been the root emotion that. makes other emotions amplified. Feeling. abandoned makes heart feel a lot bigger.

than it than it should or feeling. abandoned makes loss feel bigger than. that. So it's like silly things like if. a friend if I call a friend and I don't. this has happened before a friend of. mine and it was just their process she. would call or I would call she would. pick up we would have the most amazing. con like conversation and we would have. like the connection would be right back. where we were before and it would be.

lovely and then I would call maybe a. month later and I would she wouldn't. pick up or and I wouldn't see her for. another a month or two and I would take. it so personally for me it would be like. she's left me again but actually that. was just her process. Sometimes she. would go and sort of shield herself and. grow herself back and put herself back. together and then she would appear. again. And I had to learn that that is. just the way she exists. And I had to be.

okay with her way of existing. And once. I learned that that's her way of. existing, it meant that I could welcome. her with open arms and I wouldn't be so. upset when she was gone, that I knew. that she was just putting herself back. together again and I could just send a. little message of how are you and I'm. thinking of you and I'm going to call. you in a couple of weeks and if you're. around, I'm okay for a chat and not. expect anything. So that when something. did come back, it was joyous. It was. really wonderful.

when that feeling of abandonment was the. the the main focus. It felt really bad. when she went away. And it's the same and it had been the. same in different relationships that. when they had decided that they wanted. to move on or when they it just felt. like such a wound. and that is that is not sustainable. You. can't live like that. You can't live. believing that everyone is abandoning.

you because it makes for a really lonely. existence. It means that you build up a wall. of protection to stop yourself from. really being connected to anyone. Yeah. Even if you're surrounded by loads. of people. Mhm. You know, you've been dedicated to your. art for so many years. and I feel like Wicked was like this. global phenomenon, right? It's and you've been recognized.

and won awards and done phenomenal work, but Wicked was just. Yeah. At least from the outside, it felt. different. Like, how did that change. your feeling of fitting in and belonging. and because you're part of something. bigger, bigger, like how does that kind. of how do you make sense of that? What's. really interesting is that I think I've. really been able to lean into who I am. And what I noticed is that there are so. many people in the world who feel really. different. And because I got to do this.

piece that put me in front of many. people, it meant that there are other. people who felt like they were. invisible, who finally felt visible. again. And that has been something. that's really wonderful to experience to. bump into people who didn't feel like. they fit. Women specifically who have. spoken to me about either um women who. have suffered cancer and have been. through chemotherapy and lost their hair. and said and and I'm not ill. I'm my. hair is a choice. I I shaved it first. because of the the film and then I loved.

what it did to me. It meant that I. really could just see my face and me. And we know that there's a always a. massive conversation around hair and. what it does and how long someone's hair. is or how smooth or how straight or. whatever that is or how curly whatever. And I had made a choice to not have it. at all. And the amount of women who have. suffered alipesia, suffered, have been. through cancer and survived but h now. have to wear wigs or don't wear wigs or.

have been sort of shy about going. without have reached out and been like, I saw you rocking no hair and now I feel. really confident about walking around. with no hair and being bald and I feel. really strong about it. And that's been. a huge eye opener that there are so many. people who feel like they don't belong, but seeing one person who's very. different from the norm and, you know, rocks what they rock and are who they.

are sort of put out a little bit of. permission to to also be who you are. And and I think that for me. was a real crux of this. There are so. many people trying to just discover. themselves and they just need to see it. on someone else to also decide or I can. just be. that's been wonderful. The amount of. Eyes on You is really new for me. It's. I'm still adjusting to it and while I.

have I'm really grateful for the. platform that has been given to me. because of it. It's still a new thing. It's new to to be heard all the time. It's new to to be seen all the time. It's new to see, you know, walk through. an airport, think that you're anonymous. and and not be anonymous at all. You. know what [laughter] I mean? Even when. you have no makeup on and it's like who. you are. And that's a norm for me to. walk through an airport, no makeup, no. nothing, sort of hat on and just like.

ready to go but not be recognized. But. when you are recognized, it's a new. that's very new for me. It's also really. wonderful because people are so excited. by it and so excited by these characters. and so excited by the people who play. the characters. That's also new. Before. I could play a character and they would. recognize the character, but not. necessarily recognize me from from the. character. Now people know me and the. character which is a new thing also that. they are able to separate the person.

Alphaba who I played and me Cynthia. that's also a new thing. which is lovely because it means that I. guess I've made an impression as me as. well as an impression as the character. which is really lovely. It's nice to be. able to nice that people have welcomed. me into their homes. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Oh, I love that. Well, well, like I think Radi sent you that. little clip of my niece calls me alphaba. and she thinks she's Glinda.

and she just made this up. And so literally every voice note to me. is she calls me alphaba and now I'm. alphab. And so when when Riley told her. that we know the real alphaba, she just. couldn't believe it. And you know, it's. but it's one of those things of like. just. it meant so much. Like I feel like you. and Ariana like me so much more than a. movie. It felt that yes, people came to see the. movie and people loved what the movie. said, but I spoke to someone who's who.

said that they a couple of parents. actually who said that this movie has. given them the opportunity to have. conversations with their kids. And I'm. talking about like seveny olds, sixy. olds to talk about playground politics. and being different and being excluded. and what that feels like and the. ownership over oneself and deciding to. be who you are against all odds and. having those conversations between adult. and kid and how difficult that can be. when there's when there's nothing to. bring that conversation up. Because of.

this movie, it it's meant that people. can have those conversations, you know, and then people our age who are leaning. more into their friendships, leaning. more into their relationships that they. have that can be difficult, but they can. pour more energy into them and then. leaning more into discovering who they. are as people. And even though it can be. scary to be who you are meant to be, to. show up as yourself, it's equally as. rewarding. And those conversations that. this has sort of brought to life is.

blown my mind. Um, and it means something different to. every single person. You think it's. possible, but when you see it, it's. beyond it. Just beyond. Yeah. And I think the point you were making. about how people accepted Alphabet. accepted you. I think that is because of how you. showed up through all of the both your. through all the press. It's almost like you didn't both show up. as movie stars. You showed up as. you showed up as people and you felt. that I think that's what everyone felt.

where it was like oh they didn't show up. as two people who were promoting a movie. they showed up as themselves and of. course we all love the movie and want to. watch the movie and all the rest of it. but it was very different to what people. have been exposed to before. that you don't usually. I don't even think we did that on. purpose I think that's just that's just. who we are you know I think. I don't know that I said to myself I'm. going to come to these Q&As and and I'm. going to us to talk about this and that. I think I just there's something. wonderful that exhaustion does to you.

where the the veil sort of falls away. And we had been we were already. exhausted before we begun the press. store because we'd worked so long. We'd. been working so long on it and we'd. worked really hard. We didn't really. have much of a time away from the film. before we began, you know, sharing it. with people. We finished the film in. February and we're on the road basically. from June. So that's not a long time. And between that time we also were. working on other things. So we hadn't. actually stopped. So by the time we we.

were in front of everybody there was no. energy to put up pretenses. We just were. who we were. And there's something. wonderful about. having only the energy to exist in in. yourself in front of people. And once. you begin that way, it doesn't go in the. other direction. It just amplifies. And. so we become, [laughter] you just. watched us become more and more and more. of ourselves. And all the tears that you. saw were very, very real because the.

experience was still very raw. We only. just had left it in February. That was. the last time I took off the green. I. hadn't completely put her down yet. I. was still sort of decompressing and, you. know, letting her go and putting myself. back together in front of people. That's. what was happening. And then we were. having to talk about our characters and. talk about the experience and it was. only a month or two away. And that's. sort of how it was. And then because.

we're having these constant. conversations, we're also relearning and. re-remembering and figuring things out. and learning new things. There are. things that I didn't know that she was. experiencing that I learned on the spot. And there are things that I was. experiencing that she was learning on. the spot. And the things that our. director was experiencing that we had. just realized. So, we were learning new. things in real time in front of. everybody, but we weren't pretending. that it was. old hat to us. We were realizing, "Oh my. god, I didn't know. I didn't know that. That's a new thing to to learn.". I think hopefully we'll make people do.

that more when you're in this sort of. business. And I was speaking to someone. about this, the tendency is to put up. the wall and try to protect yourself. And. actually. the most wonderful thing you can give. anyone who's watching is is a little bit. of yourself and the revelation that it. is a human experience. All of the things that it looks fancy. when you're running around and you're in.

the pretty dresses, but when you're on a. set, it's as human and as real as you. can possibly make it. You're up early, you're exhausted every day, the makeup. is coming on and off and there's. someone, you know, you're meeting loads. of different people who you've only met. for the first time on day one and then. you've got to perform that next day. It's a very vulnerable o like very open. experience and you have to sort of learn. to get used to that quite quickly. And. then once you are used to that, you then. make family with people and you you get. to know everyone's tells and you get to. know everyone's sort of like the way.

people tickle. She's really tired today. I'm going to bring her a cookie. She. likes chocolate chip cookies and I know. that will make her happy. Or he actually. is vegan so he'll only have the double. chocolate which is, you know, and he. loves raisin and oat and that's his. favorite thing, but don't put butter in. it because he actually really doesn't. like that. You know, you start to learn. what people like. She likes to eat at. 12:00 but he likes to eat at 2. Uh he's. tired judging by, you know, how fast. he's working but actually she's had a. great morning cuz she's really quick or. she's quite shy. So go to her, speak to. her quietly or you learn people and then.

you have to let them go. you have to you. actually have to say goodbye. So that's. a really human experience once you come. off a set. And I think when you promote. something, when you're on the road and. you're talking about that experience, you do yourself and everyone else a. service by making people understand just. how human the experience is. So that. people understand that it isn't just. moving pictures and we aren't just.

people you sort of cut and splice. together. On that day, this person might. have been having a terrible day, but yet. they did this. And that day she was in. complete pain in this harness that she'd. been in for 12 hours, but she was still. able to sing that. And on this day, she, you know, even though she has an allergy. to whatever, she still moved through it. because that was happening. You know, everyone is trying to create something, create art, and we're not doing it from the comfort.

of our homes and our sofas. We're really. on the ground in the dirt moving through. it. And then we come together to share it. That really is what being on the road is. about, sharing the experience. And I. think we kind of knew that almost. automatically. And I think it's. something that I will take with me for. the rest of my life. Not just for this. next movie, but for everything I do to. make it a really human experience is a. gift. I remember I've I've traveled so much. with my clients and been on set and been. in trailers from coaching someone or.

working with someone. And I couldn't believe how not. glamorous, oh my god, film sets [laughter] are. They're just not at all. And it's so. interesting because no one ever sees. that. No, you only see the finished product and. then you see the red carpet. And so you assume actors have a really. glamorous life and actually for 4 months. or for projects like yours for years, you're sitting in a tiny little trailer, uh you know, putting on your clothes, taking them off, looking at lines,

[laughter] like whatever, makeup, whatever it is. You go on set, you wait. for 3 hours, you don't know when you're. going back out. It's cold. It's, you. know, it's so interesting. how what you see and what you think. are two totally different things and it. dehumanizes people. and and so there's there's such a need. for that and I don't think I could ever. be friends with anyone who likes oatmeal. raisin cookies so I'm just pointing out. in the right way and they're crunchy on. the outside but sort of like soft and.

buttery on the inside. you can't convince me Cynthia. I I I think there's a place for them in. the world I do think that I I think so. there's that there's that I can't. remember who said it but someone was. like raising cookies are the reason I. have trust issues because [laughter]. it's like the chocolate. Yeah, exactly. I I will make like I cuz I I do like to. bake occasionally and when I was when I. was on the set I would make big tins. like two three tins full of like cookies. for people. So I would do like a set of.

chocolate chip, a set of like double. chocolate, some chocolate and salt. You're. speaking my language right some like. salted caramel. And then for this one. person, my wonderful first AD, Jack, who. was like, I just want oatmeal, a raisin. That's what I want and that's my. favorite. And I would make them from. scratch. And I would like with absolute. love and I sometime would I would put. maybe like raspberries in it or. sometimes I would do white chocolate in. it. And he he would and if that's what. someone loves, that's what someone.

loves. He would know very clearly that. that is what that was. that and I make. just a couple extra just in case anyone. else felt like they wanted to try and it. would make it very clear this is not. chocolate. There is there are raisins. just so you trust me but there are. chocolate chip over there. Yeah, [laughter]. if you need it. That's me. I'm over there. I love it. That's amazing that you're doing that. every day. I would do it every Monday for. so beautiful. Cynthia, it's been such an honor to talk.

to you and I could literally talk to you. for hours. We could know. Yeah, I was. [laughter] like I just got it from the. from your team. I just got a little time. nod. So I want to be mindful of that. But uh honestly you are. I just I love meeting people whose work. is infused with such deep inner work. like it really brings my heart joy. to see that when people are putting art. out into the world. it's coming from so much revelation and. reflection and inner work because. I think sometimes we all appreciate art.

But for so long in the world, you. appreciated art but never knew the. artist until they died maybe. Correct. And you didn't really understand them. because they weren't famous or there. wasn't social media or podcasting didn't. exist. It's like you saw a piece of art. and you thought it was beautiful but you. didn't really know that artist. and I just really appreciate you just. being so open and vulnerable. Thank you. As the artist, as the human because. it gives us such an invitation to to. understands ourselves better, understand.

you better. And uh I can't wait for. people to listen to the album. I agree with you. I'm really proud of. it. Yeah. Yeah, you should be. It really I. meant every word. Like it's when you. hear new music and it. and you're making sense of it just on. your own and it feels like that. It I. can't wait for people to hear it. And as. always, friend, I'm I'm rooting for you. forever in your corner and. so grateful for you. Thank you so much. for having me. Thank you for having me. again. If you love this episode, you. will also love my interview with Kendall.

Jenner on setting boundaries to increase. happiness and healing your inner child. You could be reading something that. someone is saying about you and being. like, "That is so unfair cuz that's not. who I am." And that really gets to me. sometimes. But then looking at myself in. the mirror and being like, "But I know. who I am. Why does anything else matter?