BILLIONAIRE Mike Milken ON: Going To Prison, Facing Terminal Cancer & Using His Money For Good

Today, we can take your skin stem cell, turn it back to the day you were born, and tell it it's now a heart stem cell. And you can see today these cells. beating like they're a heart. The. best-selling author and host. the number one health and wellness. podcast. with Jay Shetty. Mike, let's dive straight into it. because you truly have one of the most. fascinating journeys, I believe, on the. planet. And so, I want to try and get. into as much of it today, and I think a.

lot of our audience will be familiar, some of them won't be familiar at all. So, I'd love to get into some of those. details, but. can you walk me through. one of your earliest childhood memories. that you think has had a big impact on. on who you are today or how you are the. way you are today? Do you have a. childhood memory or an interaction with. your parents or an interaction with a. friend or a teacher that you think has. stayed with you? I think when I was very. young, I had this love of data and knowledge.

My favorite book was the Almanac. And at night, I'd have it under my. pillow, take out a flashlight, and read. it. And my parents had these bridge. clubs where adults would come over, and come once a month, and I'd have a. chance to interact with 15, 16, in some. cases, 20 adults. And what I discovered in this. interaction is very few people ever did.

research. When you ask a person why they believe. in something, etc., they heard it from. someone else, and it might be based on fact, it might. be based on fiction. And so, from a very. young age, I began to question why people held. certain beliefs, why they made certain. decisions, and and explored data and information. And I'd say the first major event was.

discovering. that my father had had polio. I had no knowledge and then one day. um a friend that was over, we were. playing catch, told me my father had a. limp. I really never noticed it. And I was thrust into the world in the. early 1950s of what polio was, what occurred, the understanding of it, the fact that in 1952 it was declared an. epidemic and the United States.

was worried that it would bankrupt the. country having to build iron lung hotels. to keep people alive. Well, a few years later there was a. solution. and there was a vaccine created. Two. people worked on it. and it became prevalent, but what I also. noticed was. that teenagers. were not taking the vaccine, their. parents, cuz they were worried the. vaccine was going to give them polio.

And so the end of the story was. there was an individual. who went on a very popular show in the. United States called the Ed Sullivan. Show that we used to watch. And more than a year after it was. available, less than 1% of every. teenager in America had been vaccinated. And this individual's name was Elvis. Presley. And because it was okay for Elvis, afterwards, within 1 year, 80% were.

vaccinated. And so there was a lot to. learn here from this. One, because you had a solution didn't mean. people would adopt it. Two, the fact that. this was considered something that was. going to bankrupt the country was. obviously proven wrong. Numerous people were affected by it, but. I I think at the peaks only 62,000. people. And this has repeated itself.

throughout history. of people telling you the world is. coming to an end. It's not going to come to an end and. science coming to the rescue. Wow, yeah. Incredible. I'm so excited to dive into. so many of those ideas that you just. mentioned that throughout the course of. our interview. I want to go back to that position of. you starting out. You came from a modest. background. But. and you've had lots of successes and. then valleys in your life, peaks and. valleys. If you walk us into the.

direction of your first peak, did you. always set out to be financially. successful when you first created that. first success in your life? What was the. would you say the key principles that. you used in order to manufacture that. first success that you had? I did not. plan to go into the financial service. business. I wanted to run the space program. And I was totally infatuated when. Sputnik went up. It was a.

catastrophe if you read the headlines in. the United States at the time. There was the middle of the Cold War. Now, quote, Soviet Union had beaten the. United States into space. And I was very, very good in math and. science. And I wrote a letter to the. president of the United States. Told them I was ready to run the space. program. Now, I never really got a. response. I was 11 years old. But that was my plan.

And my plan was I went to Berkeley, which was a leader in Nobel Prize. winners in the sciences. And I was preparing someday to run the. space program. Then I was in Los Angeles, where we are. today, during something that became known as. the Watts riots. It was August 11th, 1965. And Los Angeles was on fire. The city of. dreams, the city of entertainment.

I had just been in Berkeley and. and we had the free speech movement six. or seven months before, but this was. different. The city was on fire. And I went and met a young. African-American man. who told me he would never have a chance. to borrow money to have a business. His. father didn't because of the color of. his skin. It seemed totally irrational to me. And I decided to go back and figure out.

why this was occurring. When I went back. to Berkeley and began to study credit. And very similar to when I was younger, I discovered everything that people said. about credit was wrong. It didn't make any difference if you're. the Secretary of the Treasury, the head. of the Federal Reserve. And what they were saying was. inaccurate. And so I set on a path. I had to give up my dream at that time. of the space program. to begin working on what I might have.

called the democratization of capital. And I pursued that. during this period of time from 1965 for. the next 20 to 25 years. So. I that was not my path. But the studying and what I had done as. an undergrad and then as a grad student. and my decision to quote go to Wall. Street. was really to redirect the access to. capital. Have a fundamental change. And yes, in the next 30 years, 62.

million jobs in the United States were. created. There's always a backlash. As a physic. major, for every force, there's. resistance. And so changing the financial system at. that time, many people wished that I didn't exist. The idea. that you were a large company and you. had access to capital and the others. didn't. So, there were 500 investment grade. companies and tens of millions of. non-investment grade companies. Well,

once you empower them. and created financial markets, we discovered 62 million jobs were. created in non-investment grade. companies and minus four. So, there was a lot of change. Today, there's hundreds of firms headed by. people that work for me. And I would say it's that those. structures are the basis. of modern financial markets around the. world. But, it's not it is not unusual.

At one of our scientific retreats. in the first part of this century, I was in the back of the room and I. invited two young people from Australia. to come and speak. And they commented that everything you. thought about ulcers was wrong. Everything they were telling you about. ulcers. And these two senior scientists I had. there in the back of the room. One. turned to the other and said, "Who are.

these yobbos? They didn't even go to a good school.". Well, four years later these yobbos won. a Nobel Prize. So, challenging conventional wisdom and. theory, I think, has been. something I've tried to do as you try to. move forward, create jobs, solve medical. problems throughout my life and it goes. all the way back. to my little Almanac and discovering my. father had polio.

One thing I'm noticing from your answers. is that you have this keen ability to. spot patterns and analyze patterns. You're almost seeing that there are. systems, which ultimately are patterns. that no longer serve us, and you believe. that there are better systems or better. patterns that would have an impact on. the world. And you also have used the. word study a few times in your first few. answers. And I think there's this big difference. between academic study and pattern.

study. And I find that the most. successful people in the world are great. at studying patterns. It's not really. about the academic study. Could you help. break both of those down for us, because. I feel like you're probably the best. person to ask that question to in. genuinely understanding the difference, because I think we hear the word study, but when you say the word study, you. mean something else. I would say. extremely insightful. So, we could say there is inductive. reasons, there's deductive reasons.

The very first speech I gave on Wall. Street was the best investor was a. social scientist. Understanding where things were in a. bigger world and stepping back. And then going down and looking at the. data. to find out if your broad ideas of the. world. were changing. In the last few months, the world has. opened up. to the idea of where are the children of.

the world. For 20 years, the handwriting has been. on the wall. The world did not open up to it until. the last short period of time here. But the birth rate in Northern Asia, Europe, the United States has dropped so. significantly. that whereas the population of the US. has doubled, there are less children. born today. than there were 70 years ago in the.

United States. China's birth rate has. dropped so low that the number of. children born in China last year was. less than 10 million. So, you think about a country of 1.4. billion. But, if average life expectancy, taking. those that live to 100 and averaging. with those that die young, is 75. If you have 10 million children. born a year, and you multiply it by 75, that's a. population of 750 million, not a billion.

four. And so, as people think about things, we've had more people dying in Japan now. for a very long period of time. than are born. And so, they have a. decreasing population in most of the. developed worlds, the birth rate is below replacement. But, this has not been going on for. since the pandemic. This has been going. on for a long period of time. And so,

when do you see it? And so, about 20, 30 years ago, we. became quite concerned because it. appeared to us. that the future, where the children were. going to be born, was in sub-Saharan. Africa. And the rest of the world as a whole. might be decreasing in terms of. population. So, what were the. opportunities going to be for the. children of sub-Saharan Africa? And today, in 2023,

more children are born in Nigeria. than all of Western Europe, Eastern. Europe, throw in Russia, by a substantial amount. And more than. twice as many children are born in just. Nigeria than the United States. So, people are looking at where you are. here. Now, when I had my little almanacs, I was too young to know. that if you matched one almanac against.

another almanac, you were actually getting the first. derivative. You were measuring change. And then if you had a few of them, you. were measuring the rate of change. And. so I think when answering your question, you have to look at the broad social. implications and what is occurring. Then. you have to ask yourself do the systems. that currently exist. fit. where the world is going?

I then if I had four almanacs could. calculate the second derivative, the. rate of change. And I would say this is prevalent in. medicine. You could be diagnosed with cancer. Is it a slow growing cancer or is it a. fast growing? In the case of melanoma, it doubled. every month. If it was advanced, so a billion cancer. cells one and 10 months later are a. trillion. Other cancers are very slow. growing, so you could take your time to.

address it. And so understanding the rate of change. and today what's happening in the world. and where the children are born and the. facts that they're going to need. opportunities, they're going to need. jobs or we're going to see one to two. billion people. on the move. So the question is when how. early do you see that? And one of the exciting things about. medicine today. is in the 1980s, there was this idea. that everything was in your blood.

Well, you didn't know what to look for. You couldn't sequence. You couldn't do. anything. So might be there, but I can't find it. Now today. we now have tests that can measured the. waste the DNA late leakage in your. blood. So you can find a life threatening. disease today when there's just a very. small amount of cells in your body long. before you could ever find it in a.

mammogram or a CT or an MRI. And so, therefore, dealing with these life threatening. diseases today at their infancy is so. much easier. But this was a dream. until computers were a million times. faster and data storage costs were 1. billion. It was an idea. It was a dream, but it. wasn't a reality. Absolutely. Thank you. for sharing that. I wanted to before we. dive into all the incredible work you've. done in healthcare, I definitely wanted.

to talk about this part of your journey, which we've talked about personally, but. you making all these shifts and changes. and pushing the boundaries, you ended up. going to prison in 1990 after pleading. guilty to several felony charges related. to securities violations. But to me, I'm fascinated by A, how that happened. for you, but B, more importantly, how you used. that time because the comeback, now. looking backwards, it's it's incredible, but to live that Steve Jobs famously.

said, you can always connect the dots. looking backwards. You can't when you're. moving forwards. I just can't imagine. someone who had such a vision, someone. had such incredible ideas to challenge. the status quo, ends up having to go to prison. Walk us. through first of all, how did you end up. there? And then and then we'll talk about what. it was like there because I think that's. just such a. interesting part of your journey now. looking backwards. Well, I think that. issue, there was an unusual period of.

time. And once again, a complete. revolution in finance. There are many points in history where. you've had people that were presidents, went to prison, Brazil today, and are. now the president of the country again. So, when the president gave me a pardon, he commented. that these things were never crimes. before, they've never been crimes since. They related to bookkeeping and things. like that.

But, I had to find a way to bring it to. an end. And I you if you fought for 10 or 20. years, uh to me, I had to find a way to live. again. And so, I think if you're true to. yourself and you know the issues, uh and the individuals know you, uh I viewed this as going to be a short. period of time. And I had to cut it short and make a. decision for my family, etc. to live. again.

And it was a short period of time in the. scheme of things when I think. of the diversion. of less than 2 years. If I go back to World War II, you had. people that volunteered. and were gone for 4 years fighting. for freedom and what they believed in. And so, I think my view was that I had to find a. solution to bring it to an end. And and it didn't really change who I.

was, what I did. Uh the financial systems we built are. now adopted. throughout the world, whether you're in. India, or Singapore, or whatever it. might be. And yes, there was disruption in the force. I would say to you if you think about a. country you and I first met in, the UK, when the mo when the mercantile class. rose up. in England,

who was under threat? The nobility. And so, the nobility would go to the. king or the queen and say, "Well, we. can't compete anymore. What are we going. to do?" But, the old financial system. didn't really meet. the future needs of the world. And so, yes, uh. I spent uh time thinking. I got to tutor. individuals, help them get their. education. How did you spend your days. for those 2 years? I spent my time. thinking about the world. I would write.

sometimes ambassadors. at around the world suggesting what I. think they should have done or or should. do or what the country should do. So, it didn't uh it didn't interrupt. uh those interactions. Um. it didn't stop our philanthropic. efforts. Et cetera. I did get to interact with a. group of people. At that time, the group. that was in the prison camp, this was a.

very low-security area, were primarily. there for drugs, marijuana, ship captains, and other types of. things. And so, it was a period of time I was able to. interact with my family. I think anyone. that's separated from their family, and. when I think back. to those people that went and fought in. World War II in the 1940s, that might have been separated for 4. years, their only way of communicating.

with their family was through a letter. You know, the telephone was invented. And in. long-distance call, when I was young, no. one made long-distance calls because it. was 10 to 12 minutes to call another. country. So, in the 1970s, if I wanted. to speak to Mumbai, I had to be prepared. It was $10 to $12. a minute. So, those calls had to be. short. And that was a period of time.

yeah in that period of time when a. person's salary was hundreds of dollars. a a not thousands of dollars a week. Today, people have a hard time relating. to that because it's free on WhatsApp. or on your phone. But, I could communicate with my. children, my family. And so, when you're separated, the first. thought is. is your family going to be okay? Are your relationships. My wife and I had known each other since.

we were 12. She knew who I was, I knew who she was. My business associates, thousands of. them, knew who I was, knew the issues, and so it wasn't a situation where I. felt separated from the world. You know, and therefore communication. still existed. A telephone existed. You weren't allowed. to have a cell phone, but you could make. a call on a payphone, so it wasn't the.

same separation. When I think. of many people that were sent to the. gulag in Russia, uh there's, you know, whether it was. Solzhenitsyn or others or Sharansky, they wrote about. how they took away their communications, they took away their visits, they even. took away pencil and paper. They took away books. And one of them wrote that he know he. knew he had won then cuz there was.

nothing else. that they could take away. And so, I think having inner strength is. extremely important during that period. Well, when I think about my challenges. relative to the tens of millions of. people. that have gone off to fight in wars, uh my parents' generation that lived. through the depression and World War II. so that we could be free,

uh. my difficulties were very small relative. to theirs. I think it's an incredible. amount of inner strength not only to be. able to. navigate those 2 years even though you. are saying it didn't feel that long in. the. bigger scheme of things. I I still. believe that there is such a resilience. there but the way you came back. Well, let's just talk about Mandela. You're. talking more than 20 years. Yeah, 27. Okay, and did he come back. bitter? No. Okay, and and South Africa became quite.

different, let's say, than Zimbabwe as. Rhodesia went. So, here instead of being bitter and. when he got out I had a chance to visit. with him. We came to see each other. And so. my view was revenge or bitterness. is an unproductive emotion. If you have something to give and focus. and build. you have to focus going forward. You.

can't sit and focus on the path. And I had thousands of people that had. worked for me. who could carry on our mission in. finance. and our foundations by forming the. Milken Institute. uh didn't change much what I had done in. the for-profit world there I now did in. the non-profit world. So, my view was the insights. the ideas carried on. And I I am sure.

you know, the current president in. Brazil who spent a short time in prison. you know, has certain views but he has. so many responsibilities and things he. has to do for Brazil. If he was stuck in the past, Brazil. wouldn't have a future. I I'm so glad. you brought up Nelson Mandela. There's a. beautiful statement in his where he said. that. when I walked out of. the gates of the jail,

I realized that if I was. to hold on to that resentment or. bitterness, that I would still be in. prison. And along those lines, and I think. that's such a powerful statement of his. that he believed that resentment and. bitterness and revenge were the actual. prison that would hold and limit him. moving forward. Well, as you know well, and your viewers know well, there are so. many people in the world. that have mental health issues today. And in many ways, they're all traced to.

something in their past. And so, being free, being free. of. your past, not forgetting it, not reflecting on it, not having it be part of your decision. process allows you to go forward. and to fly from that standpoint. Absolutely. I want to talk about your. switch from financial world to medical.

research. But before we do that, I want. to talk about your own journey with. being diagnosed with terminal prostate. cancer, which I can't imagine is an easy. thing to hear at such a young age as. well when you first receive that. What. was it like to receive such a diagnosis. as someone again who is thinking about. the future, trying to build? Were you. someone who was quite focused on your. health as well, or were you somewhat. negligent because you were focused on. work? And how did it feel to hear that? Uh I would say to you I probably had one.

of the least healthy diets in the world. until that day I was diagnosed. Uh but I experienced this with my. father's death. in the 1970s. And it was the first time. my economic theories. were tested during a period of time from. '73 to '77, which I would call my financial clinical. trials, all the ideas that I had. developed.

And by the the mid-1970s, I had become. independently wealthy with the success. of those ideas. And most of them, 90% of the people, believed we were headed to this. financial. depression again, and my views were no, we weren't in history. So, but I could not save my father's life. from melanoma. And it had a significant. view here that it was the first time in.

my life. that I could not solve a problem. I. could help rebuild a company. I might be able to help rebuild a. country financially, but I could not. find a decision. I visited all these. senior people, and I went to the major. medical centers, traveled with my dad, and I concluded by 1976 that science. could not move fast enough, no matter. what I had done, or could do,

to save my father's life. So, I had made the decision then to move. back to California, so that my two children, my wife Lori. and I, two children at the time, would. know my father before he died. And he. died about 9 months. after we moved back to California, and. then I moved. families, etc., thousands of people back. to California. And so, this has stayed with me. I've. lost 10 relatives to cancer,

and my diagnosis was worse than theirs. So, obviously, I'm now reflecting, what am I going to do? And when it. looked like I had 18 months to live, you have to figure out, what could I do. different than they did. And the first decision I made is I would. focus on anything that's reversible. So, for 2 years I did not eat anything.

except fresh fruit and fresh vegetables. I had no idea whether it would benefit. me, but I figured it wouldn't hurt me. And none of my relatives or friends who. had died from life-threatening diseases. had ever changed their diet. And as I explored the world of the. Chinese medicine in China. or Ayurveda medicine in India or witch. doctors in the central part of Africa.

or Indians in the Northwest Amazon or. healers from Russia, you know, it came to me that I I would. really focus on Ayurveda medicine. And in the 5,000 year history, the. belief was your gut, your microbiome, was your second brain. So, everything you eat, everything you. drink, everything you exercise, everything you're experiencing.

is going into your second brain. So, I. was going to change my second brain. even though there was no proof. You. couldn't sequence at the time. And so, that was a focus that I focused. on. And I think the other thing I was. very focused on is. that most people diagnosed with a. life-threatening disease. do the least they can do at day one.

And if it reoccurs later in life, they. do everything they can to stay alive. But if you had done more at the. beginning, then you would have had a better chance. and so once I had driven my cancer. burden to what appeared to be zero, I then made the decision to have. radiation whereas someone else might. have done nothing cuz I figured the. burden was the least. And so I set off on this journey.

thinking about my father and my. relatives and friends and I had a bunch. of friends that I had interacted with. that had passed away. that how could I accelerate science? So first. I could try to change my body. And at this time we weren't talking. CRISPR, we weren't talking about a. technology that could change your genes. that is still not widely. deployed because we don't know as we.

create a new human race. whether this is good or bad. And so I set off on this journey of how. to accelerate science. But that journey in science is not much. different than my journey in finance or. the journey we took in education and. what we did. I was going to try to attract the best. and most talented people in the world to. come work in this field. And.

no matter how talented you were. if you were the individual that. perceived the future was mobile phones. or cell phones, Craig McCaw. That was a good idea, but unless you had. access to billions of dollars, you could. never access that idea. If you were a. Bill McGowan and believed fiber optics. would change. and we could drive the cost over time. from $12 a minute to talk to India to.

zero. You needed billions of dollars. So the. same. focus of attention One, attract the best and brightest to work. in the field. Two, bring enough financial capital to. service a multiplier effect. And three, create teamwork. Many organizations. have people. that have real talent, but they don't act as a team. They don't.

act as one. And therefore, what I saw in medicine, there was no. team. There was not enough financial capital. And many of the brightest people were. not working in this field. So, those. were the first. levels I was focused on, but that was no. different. In education, we had created. a national educator award to attract the. best and brightest into the field. And. finance had searched out the world's.

leading entrepreneurs, providing them. capital and advice, and help create teams for them. So, that. that was the revolution. that began in '93 in health care and. medical research. And. I faced just as much resistance. as I did in the financial revolution. The first comment was, "Prove it.". Well, in 1993, you couldn't prove.

anything. I could show you anecdotal. evidence. that in places of the world where people. were plant eaters, China, not meat eaters, that the incidence of hormone-driven. cancers or diabetes was far less. And in places that we had different. diets, fast food diet, it was far more. So, yes, there was anecdotal evidence, and so they said, "Well, prove it.". Well, I I you couldn't sequence the.

human genome. You couldn't do anything. in 1993. And Francis Collins, who I met. in '93, set off on a journey to. sequence. It wasn't till many, many years later. and billions of dollars that they. completed that. And I'll never forget in 1994, I had one. of our scientific retreats with the. world's leading. clinicians in cancer and science. And I wanted to get.

a Dr. David Heber, who had founded the. Center for Human Nutrition, PhD, MD at. UCLA, on the program. And the people in charge of the program. said, "You know, Mike, we're going to lose credibility. if we have this soft science ideas that. there's some relationship between what. you eat. and whether you're getting cancer.". And they fought me and told me it would. degrade what we're trying to build here.

as the leading cancer research group in. the world. And I eventually reached a compromise. with him. He would get to speak at. lunch. I wrote about it. He would not be. on the program. He would not have a microphone. And if. you wanted to listen, you had to sit. close. And if you didn't want to be. infected with this idea. that there might be a link. to how you live your life and what you. eat and what you drink and your health, you could just sit far away and weren't.

have to. 25 years later, Jay, 25 years later, I went to our scientific. retreat. I was not in charge of the. programming. And maybe 20%. of every session over 4 days was cancer. and your microbiome. So, initially putting forth ideas that. challenged the status quo, whether it's. finance, whether it's education,

or whether it's medical, are challenged. Later, they're accepted, well accepted, and anyone could have. thought of that idea. Mhm. Yeah, I know. I It's It's so fascinating because I. feel like coming from an Indian. background and my wife being an. Ayurvedic health counselor and. you're so exposed to the idea early on. that your gut health is such a big part. of your overall health. But you're so. right that until we see it in the. research and the science and beyond the.

anecdotes, we don't fully comprehend these ideas. And so you're accelerating that. research. Now, what would you say were. the biggest challenges you saw when you. entered the medical field in. research and in our treatment of. diseases? So, I had entered the field in. the early 1970s for 20 years, but I was. primarily a donor. etc. And as I mentioned,

science was not moving fast enough to. save my father's life. So, I in '93 decided I couldn't help. others if I couldn't help myself. And I first had to survive. But there were those three elements. One, teamwork, partnership. So, I wrote about. I went to this MD Anderson. And the two leading cancer centers off. and on rated in the world were either MD.

Anderson or Memorial Sloan Kettering. in New York. One in Houston, one in New. York. And I noticed there was no one from. Memorial Sloan Kettering at the cancer. conference in Houston. And I told the. person putting the conference on, "Why is there no one here from Memorial. Sloan Kettering if we're trying to. accelerate research. And he told me. he viewed Memorial Sloan Kettering as a. competitor. And I told him not to the patient. So,

therefore, once we promised funding for research in. this field, we would only fund if you shared all. your data. And I eventually got on my board Andy. Grove, who was the CEO of Intel. And we worked on this is early. technology with computers and connecting. that we would connect all of our. researchers digitally together. And it might be easier for someone at MD.

Anderson to talk to someone at Memorial. Sloan Kettering via technology than. someone else to find at MD Anderson. But, we told them that we couldn't fund. any of their research. unless they shared their data. Now, some. people told me, "Well, I have to wait. for Nature or Cell magazine to come out. The story will be out in a year.". And we told them that their research was. so important. that they didn't need any of our funds.

Our funds were only for those who were. willing to share. And I would say within. 6 months. everyone in the world was willing to. share. And no matter how much we raised in. money, I was out there. first recruiting the best and brightest. And second, trying to convince people. who were thinking of leaving the field. to stay in the field. And I wrote in the book a little bit.

about an individual who was being. recruited to make better apples. And I was successful in convincing him. that we could live and still eat the. same apples. for maybe the next 20 years, but people. being diagnosed with cancer throughout. the world and the fact it was going to. be increasing, not decreasing, we couldn't wait for solutions. And so. and then the the other element I would. say to you was government.

There is no individual, there is no. foundation, my family foundations which. were created and today there's with our. centers more than 10 of them. Nor Bill Gates and Melinda Gates, the. Gates Foundation, plus Warren Buffett, uh which is one is one of the largest. foundation today in the world. The amount of money they have. is small relative to the government.

So if you can redirect the funds of the. government, you now have access to hundreds of. billions of dollars that could be. redeployed. And so we spent two to three years. making the economic argument. of what the elimination of cancer was. But one of the challenges, when you talk. about challenges, we were not able as a country to. increase significantly our investment in.

the National Institutes of Health, the. largest medical research group in the. world. And I discovered in my analysis that one. of the reasons was there were 500. different diseases constantly appealing. for more funds. And so unlike a laser, you had all these. voices out there, whether it's. Parkinson's, whether it was Alzheimer's, whether it's diabetes. And there wasn't a focused request. And.

so beginning two years later in '95, I. went to the various disease specific. groups and said, "If you will stand. down, we will have a combined effort focused. on cancer, all cancers, like a laser to double the NIH budget. And we will work on that, and when it's. doubled, all medical research will.

double, not just cancer.". And they agreed, and so we put on a. march. It took 3 years. and all this data, etc., to show and. interacted with our political leaders. that this would be one of the best. investments the country could make, and. the leaders in the world. in the 22nd century will be the leaders. in the 21st century in bioscience. And so, with the march concluding in.

'98, the President of the United States. shortly thereafter signed into law what. became the doubling. of the NIH budget. There's been an incremental $500. in basic research spent. It laid the groundwork for what we did. to get a quick solution for COVID-19. Every disease has benefited from it.

The financial commitment was $10 million. in the march. Today, there's a $500 billion. payoff. So, the first efforts of individual. philanthropy, the efforts of recruiting. young scientists to work in the field, which is probably the highest rate of. return in any philanthropy that I've. seen, the cause of teamwork was coupled now.

with the increased benefit of getting. the government focused on this area. Wow, and I want to read out this is on. page 111 of the book where you talk. about a new type of organization and. you've lay out these. you know, very clear principles that. you're just speaking about right now. So, as you said, recruit the best and. brightest scientists and physicians, focus on the career paths of these young. investigators, require collaboration in place of. competition, build cross-sector ties, identify the most promising research not.

funded by the NIH, uh eliminate needless. bureaucracy, and the list continues. And. I I mean, you make it sound so easy when. I'm listening to you right now and when. you read it like this, but I'm imagining. that. each one of these items took. a lot of effort, time, energy. I mean, you you make it sound so. seamless, but I I would love to know. like how. how challenging is it to galvanize at.

such a large scale and level? So, if you. were at a Parkinson's Foundation or a. Diabetes Foundation and. thousands of talented people tried to. increase funding, but it was like there was a zero-sum. game. If I increase funding for. diabetes, I had to take it away from. someone else. And so, getting them to accept that they. were unsuccessful. and to stand down and have faith,

it's somewhat based on past performance. In the financial investment, they want. in business, they want to know, "Okay, what's your past performance? Do. you have a track record?". So, we had a track record of success. to build on and and we didn't ask them. to stand down for their lifetime. We just asked them to stand down for a. few months here so we could focus like a. laser our attention on this issue.

Eliminating cancer as a cause of death. and bringing in the leading economist in. the world. was worth $50 trillion to the US economy. in the early 1990s, multiples of what the economy and so we. could show. the results. And so yes, you have to. have a past track record. Convincing a person. not to change their career.

I remember one of the world's leading. chemist. was been about to be given a job as the. dean of the most prestigious university. in the world, but he would leave the. laboratory. So I went and asked him. who's running Warner Brothers? At the. time it was two friends of mine, Terry. Semel and Bob Daly. He had no clue who was running. I asked him has he ever heard of Steven. Spielberg?

And he says, yes, he's heard of Steven. Spielberg. I said, well. if you become the dean, no one will ever. hear of you. because Steven Spielberg took years to. make movies and product. You're working. on breakthroughs here in bioscience. That might change the world. You becoming a manager of others might. never change the world. And so luckily, he decided to stay. When. you think.

of young scientist. the hundreds or thousands that I've. dealt with. you graduated high school, you were 17. or 18 years old. You're now 31 or 32 or 33 years old. You've gone to medical school. You got a. PhD. You had fellowships, residencies, internships. And now you're ready for your own. laboratory, and there's no money.

It's very easy to make the decision. to go into industry, family practice, and give up your basic research. But if we can greet you at that time and. give you your own laboratory and get the. institution to match. for $100,000. a year for 3 years, you've changed the career. And whether it's in our melanoma. research alliance.

or whether it's in our Faster Cures. group for all life-threatening diseases. or whether it's in the Prostate Cancer. Foundation, if we have 25 young. scientists. and they each are going to work for 40. years, by funding them. at 2 and 1/2 million dollars. for the first year and each year, you've bought 1,000. years of their time. And when I look back over the 30 years.

to all these new therapies that have. been created, you will find a young. scientist, a young person there. It's very interesting at the National. Institutes of Health, the first age that you get an award is. 43. If you look at who's won Nobel Prizes in. science, most people have won. for an idea they had when they were. within a few years of school.

James Watson was in his 20s. when he put forth his idea. that if we have genes, etc. You know, so many Einstein, I think was. 23. And so the idea. that you're going to school and you're. studying and you've now spent 15 years. after high school. and now. we're going to tell you you can wait. another 12 years?

It's ridiculous. And so the system. really was not prepared for the fact. that we needed to get the best and. brightest and divert their careers. younger. And so I have spent. more than 30 years working on this. The. same thing we had worked on. 40 years ago with educators to try to. get them to stay as an educator. When you go to India today.

people are so confused today that think. India is like China. There were 23 or 24 million children. born last year in India. There were 9 to 10 million born in. China. More than twice as many children. Today there are more than 200 million. more children in India. than in China. China is more advanced digitally but.

there's very few countries where the. competition for education. you know today is more significant. And. they also have. a belief in health care. not based on modern technology. but 5,000. years of anecdotal experience. So yes. our theory is that your gut. have been proven to be true.

with modern sequencing technologies. And. this year they've just approved. giving the microbiome. of one person who responded well to. treatment to another person that didn't. respond well, admitting. that because they have a different gut, they're going to respond well and how. their genes are expressed or how the. therapy they're given is going to be. expressed differently.

But in India, you had 5,000 years of. experience of. if you did this, that happened. And when I went to the northern Amazon, northwest Amazon, here I am dressed head to toe and I. wrote about it all in black. And our Indian guide has a pair of. shorts on and that's it. He's immune to. everything. I'm not immune to anything. And he takes.

me over and he says, "Well, we use this. bush. against malaria and we use this for. this.". And he shows me this and he says, "If we. ever get separated, you can hack this bush and drink the. water inside.". But then he goes and he tells me, "But. don't drink the water in this bush, it. could kill you." So, they both look the same to me. Okay, both of them. So, I got a rope and. we tied it around his waist and my waist.

so we would never. be separated as we were hacking. through the jungle. And so, I think the world today. is adjusting. to what have we learned over thousands. of years. that we didn't take in consideration. And the environmental movement, the. efforts here in healthy human, healthy. planet, is totally interrelated. Absolutely. What have you found.

as your. I guess the things that you're most. happy about that prove to you the. research is going in the right. direction. What are you pointing towards. as successes or solutions? Well, let's just talk about two that the. world has full knowledge of. HIV AIDS. The number one talk show host, not the number one healthcare podcast in. the world, in 1987, Oprah Winfrey goes on.

television. and tells the people of America. that one in five are going to die. from AIDS in the next 3 years. That's. based on her work. Well, unfortunately, many people died. But we didn't have 80 million people. die. We had tens of thousands. And the cocktails and the antivirals. that were created, so when one of the. most popular people in the United.

States, Magic Johnson, announced in 1991. that he was diagnosed with HIV and he's. going to have to retire at his peak of. his career from the NBA, most people, including myself, thought. he might not make it. Today, he's a friend. He's participated. in our Faster Cures effort. He's bigger. than life. His smile is bigger than. life.

It's 32 years later. Where do we see it the most when you. say, "Where are the results?" Look at. sub-Saharan Africa. 2/3 of everyone with HIV and AIDS. lived in sub-Saharan Africa. If you. wanted to go work there, they wanted you. to work. 30 years ago, they paid you combat pay. out of fear that you could be infected. Well, today, the chance of a woman with proper care.

passing AIDS on to her children is 2%. down from 95. So, the population. of sub-Saharan Africa is growing. Children that were orphans are no longer. born. with HIV. People with HIV and AIDS are. living today, not dying. And what did we just see in the last 3. years during COVID? The leaders in the state that you and I.

are in today, California, told Californians. that one in two Californians are going. to get. the disease in the next 3 months. And that 5 million of people in. California. will have to be hospitalized, but. there's only a few hundred thousand. hospital beds. It was a catastrophe. More than a million people died in.

America, more than 10 or 20 million worldwide. But it wasn't 50% of the population. It wasn't 10% of the population. And it was only 63 days. between the sequencing of the virus and. the first human being. getting a vaccine. 63 days, 9 weeks, not. 10 years. And so, that is why I wrote the book.

Okay, I wrote the book cuz we are on the. verge. of a total revolution, the same as I saw. in finance in healthcare today with. technology. And so, it's time to put your foot on. the accelerator and go faster. Not time to ease up because we think. we have put into suspended animation. this pandemic.

And so, that was my concern. There were these points of the March in. '98. There was this point of the celebration. of science in 2012. And there's a point here today. that people don't have to die. For the. first time in history, we have a good chance. to cure your disease in your own. lifetime. if we stay with it. Mike, how can me and.

my community support these efforts? How. can people be involved? How can people. be engaged if they feel inspired by what. you're doing and and the work that. you're leading on? How can they get. involved because I think that's often, you know, what you're sharing is a. healthier future, which I think we all want. But. naturally, we often. people get discouraged because of. headlines and news and everything that. we see around us. Or things that aren't. true that are in the headlines. So, just the concept of healthy human,

healthy planet. Such a large percent of the earth today. is devoted to raising animals, 70 to 80. billion animals for humans to eat. And that doesn't count the billions. of fish. We are on the verge. of essentially being able to create a. hamburger without a calf, without a cow.

Now, for a person in India who doesn't eat a. hamburger, it doesn't make any. difference. Okay, but if we can grow it in the. laboratory. and just give it light and energy and. nutrients, we don't have to go through the whole. process. of all the water required, all the land. required to grow physical animals. So yes, we can grow food in a. laboratory.

And now it has just been approved. to allow this to occur. We needed to get. the cost down. It used to be 30,000 an ounce, then it. went to three, now it's a few hundred. But it's only a matter of time. where we can have a substantial change. in the planet. A friend of mine put up the money to do. a book called Drawdown. And Drawdown. listed the 20 major factors.

that were changing our atmosphere and. the environment the Earth is in. 10 of them relate to food. 10 of them relate to other things. And so, we have a chance. and the environmental movement combined. with. the health movement. Science today can. show you what happens. So, we know today. that what were all these vegetables on. the planet for if you believed in.

Darwin? What's the purpose of broccoli? Cauliflower, Brussels sprouts. These. things are little Pac-Man that are out. there. eating. Okay, carcinogens in your body. We've learned today. that your immune system can do amazing. things. And I wrote about it when I first heard. Jim Allison talk in 19. 97. that your immune system is smarter than.

all the scientists in the room. But someone turned off your immune. system. And that's why you got a. life-threatening disease. Okay, and that occurred. And so, he developed and won a Nobel. Prize for the concept of checkpoint. inhibitors. And we financed his work for 10 years in. prostate cancer. It wasn't that. effective. But the minute we moved to. melanoma,

the death rate has dropped by 50%. And so what he did is we turned off the. switch in the cancer that turned off. your immune system. The idea of growing your own organs, there are now. people that have had organ transplants. from others take these drugs to prevent. rejection by their own immune system. Well, at Mass General in Boston and. other things, there looks like there's.

now a technology. that you can input to a certain degree. the immune system of the person that. donates your organ to use so you'll have. two immune systems. So when you get that. organ, you don't need rejection. Your. immune systems will be operating. So. technology is just moving non-invasive. surgery. When I watched Star Trek as a kid, the doctor Bones, he didn't do any.

invasive surgery. Put a little thing on. your body and it did everything. Well, that's what non-invasive focused. ultrasound can do. So the promise. the promise is with us today. And so. we're just trying to get a mission here. going. to make sure we stay with our efforts. that the world mobilize. When you look. at what happened.

in the months of COVID, one, I came back and told everyone. at every one of our centers that we will. all be judged by what we did during this. period of time. I'm not a didn't want to compete with. you, but we launched. podcast, 125 of them. And the reason I. launched them. was threefold. One, if I'm talking to Francis Collins, the. head of the NIH, I want you or anyone.

else to hear what he's saying. Anyone in the world could listen. I. might be able to talk to the CEO of Alex. Gorsky at J&J. Most of people couldn't, but you can listen to the conversation. Two, by talking to him, I can encourage. them. maybe to take action they wouldn't have. taken. So, when I first spoke to Alex. Gorsky in April on this podcast, he was. talking about maybe joining the clinical.

trials in January of '21. And so, my. comment was, "Why not July?". Which he ended up doing, and it was. approved by January. And so, the third effort was to see how. people were coping. So, if I talked to the largest employers. in the world, who had employees over the. world, what were they doing in China, Italy, etc., that you might be doing in the United.

States? If you were in responsible for. thousands or tens of thousands, or in. the case of a Walmart, millions of. employees, what are you going to be. doing? And when I spoke to the CEO of. Target, he told me that he was protecting their. employees. But what happened was when people who. lived in small living units, apartments, came into the store with their kids, the kids were running all over the. store.

And so, how you going to protect the. kids, and how you going to protect your. workers? And so, this had to be had to be done in a short. period of time. Today, I'm no longer doing podcasts. I'm. deferring to you to tell the world. But for me, I meditated. It made a big difference, I think, in my. outcome. I went to the leaders in. immunology in the world, and I. discovered the smell of the seashore.

and the smell of certain kind of trees, sequoia, cedar trees, seemed to energize. my immune system. And so, when we think. of the senses, smell, taste, touch, all of these come into play. in rejuvenating your body. So, I used to. sit at high tide. and smell the seashore. I. Why? Why did that energize my immune system? I have no idea, except we came out of.

the sea. So, maybe that was returning to. the sea. And the smell. of the pine needles and things like. that, maybe it was relating when I was. young. with my father. So, I I don't know, but. my view was we don't use all of our. senses. And we understand one of the things that. Ayurveda brought me. was understanding of so many different.

elements of touch. So, I I had a chance to see things that. I never thought I would see in my life. I visited a man in China, Qi doctor, who. was over 90 years old, and he told me if. he came out of the mountains, he would. die. But when he put his hands on me, he could create such unbelievable heat. How did he do that? I have no idea. Okay? But it gave you a chance to.

experiencing different things. And just. like the two young men from Australia. who challenged conventional wisdom. and the first reaction was they didn't. even go to a good university. Why should. we be listening to them? And then. a few years later everybody accepts it. And so I've found these similarities in. my life. whether it was in finance.

whether it was in public health. whether it's in medical research. But it all comes back to the people on. your team. So when I was in India. if India's playing Pakistan in cricket. nothing else is going on, okay? They. could be arguing and fighting about. anything, but you have to take time out. for that game. And so. there are things that focus your.

attention. And part of this effort is this concept. of healthy human, healthy planet. Yes. technology has solved so many problems. for us. But I think. what I've tried to do particularly in. the last 30 years. I've gone from an extremely unhealthy. diet. okay, to an extreme. for the first 9 years. I got my Ayurveda.

massages twice a week for 9 years. And so I was willing to do things that I. would have scoffed at. in the 1970s, 60s, 80s as way out there. Okay, but today I'm visiting with you. today. I'm the happiest guy to do a. podcast with you. 30 years later. because I changed.

The world changed. Uh and going forward, we're going to. have to make more changes, more adoption. of things. It's very hard. It's very hard. In the United States. today, we now have this quote diabetes. pill. that apparently controls your appetite. and your weight. Okay, so. As in big, yeah. Yeah, so it's a lot. easier than having personal discipline.

for me. I ate more hot dogs, I believe, than anyone except those people that win. the Nathan's hot dog eating contest. And. how we can eat 50 to 60 hot dogs and. buns in that short period of time, I. have no idea. But no hot dog. was worth your life. But not everyone. and when I found. most people don't want to be lectured on.

their diet or what they should eat or. not eat. And when you discover things like a. Nobel Prize winner, Elizabeth Blackburn, about what sugar does to you, so what happened when Mexico put a tax. on sugar or Chile put a tax on. they increased their advertising. as sales fell off. And the same thing. occurs. Unfortunately, the developing world is.

subject to this advertisement. and these addicted foods and drugs as. they move around the world. In China, literally no one had diabetes 40 years. ago. You didn't even study it in school. And now, people in China have the most number of. people with diabetes in the world. And. there's no way of regulating that at a. government level or there's no way. because I feel I agree with you. I mean, you know, I think that.

we're all now becoming more and more. aware of the amount of sugar in sugary. drinks, the amount of. you know, unhealthy fats and. carbohydrates, the amount of you know, whatever it may be or the amount of. artificial. even even in speaking of plant-based. foods, even the current like. plant-based, you know, foods this. they're not all healthy either. So, is. there no way to make sure that. at a higher level that we don't even get. access to this or is it just a. discipline conversation? No, I think we will be there. The idea.

that you can take a calf. a cell from a calf. not a calf but a cell. If we can find an. animal. that never was shot with hormones. More. than 50% of all the drugs are shot into. animals. So, you might think you're. that you're healthy. and you're not taking things, but what. you ate Yeah. And so, but I think we'll have an. entirely new food chain in 20 to 30.

years. If you look at companies, the market has. adjusted. And I wrote about it in the. book. So, at one time. Kraft was selling between 90 and $100. this year. I don't know where it is today. Call it. 35 to 40. Wow. Nestle. announced that they were going to become. a health company. What was the market reaction, social.

media reaction? First, they give you. diabetes. Then, they're going to deal with it. They're a 360. They create their own. problems, et cetera. So, Nestle went out. and hired a CEO not from the consumer. packaging, but a CEO who had worked in. health care. And they They. their candy business in the United. States. They sold other businesses. and they focused here on healthy. businesses, etc. And Nestlé has.

flourished. So, the market is willing. to pay more for that. And yes, the first iterations of plant-based diet. to make it taste we don't know if. they're any better. with all the ingredients they put in. But, the ability to grow the same as. your ability. today we can take your skin stem cell, turn it back to the day you were born.

and tell it it's now a heart stem cell. It's you. And then give it energy, light, energy, nutrients, and you can see today in a little Petri. dish these cells beating like they're a. heart. And so, we'll be able to create. pure. foods, not contaminate the planet.

in the future. And so, this is what. technology's promises and that. once again, that's why I wrote the book. I'm You're busy, I'm busy. It's not easy. to write the book. You've just finished a tour of more than. 40 cities in the world on your new book. And so, it's not easy to take the time. The analogy I have made is there was. this show in the United States called I. Love Lucy. And Lucille Ball was. packaging chocolates that coming down.

the line. And they were coming down faster than. she could pack them. So, she's putting. them here, she's putting them in her. mouth and everything. What are you going. to do? So, my life and your life, there's. plenty of things we're focused on. I've probably given. 50 speeches. in the last month. But, to set the time down. was my concern here that we have a. chance.

Technology has given us a chance. for the solution for all these. life-threatening diseases. We estimate. there's 10,000 life-threatening. diseases. that. looked at. And there's solutions for 500. So, there's a lot of work to do. And we are on the verge with the use of. technology having the ability. to do this. Thank you, Mike. Everyone.

has been listening and watching. The. book is called FasterCures: Accelerating. the Future of Health. Grab a copy right. now if you're listening. And I hope that. this is one of those episodes that. you'll share with a family member or. friend of yours that may really want to. listen to it. And I want you to share. your insights on social media, whether. you're on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. Share the clips. Share the messages. Share the insights of wisdom that Mike. shared with us today with your. communities as well because I think this.

conversation on improving our own. personal health is so needed, especially. looking at how the world is trying to. find new innovative ways to help us deal. with it. Mike, we end every On Purpose. episode with a final five. These. questions have to be answered in one. word to one sentence maximum for each. question. And so, Michael Milken, these. are your final five. The first question. is, what is the best advice you've ever. received? Do the research. Nice. Great answer.

Never had that before. Second question. is, what is the worst advice you've ever. heard or received? You'll learn it from. the newspaper. Uh. question number three, what do you do. first thing in the morning and the last. thing before you go to bed? I say hello. to my wife and good morning. And I give her a kiss. Before we go to bed at night. We've. known each other 65 years. We've been. married for 55 years. And so that's what. I do first thing in the morning and last. thing. That's beautiful. Question number.

four about that, what would be your. number one. lesson from the 65 years you've been. together? If you had to say there's one. thing that has been the most powerful. lesson you've learned. in love, what would that be? See the. world through someone else's eyes. Mhm. Great advice. Great advice. I love that. Uh fifth and final question, if you. could create one law in the world that. everyone had to follow, what would it. be? Treat others as you would like to be. treated. Beautiful. Mike Mel can.

everyone, thank you so much for. listening to On Purpose. I hope that you. enjoyed this episode. I hope you'll. share it and I'll hope you'll join us. for the next one. Thank you so much, Mike. Thank you so much for being. Thanks. Good to see you. generous and. insightful today. It's been a joy. talking to you. Likewise. Thank you so. much. If you loved this episode, you'll. enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen. on how to change your life by changing. your brain. If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain.

You know, I've had the blessing or the. curse to scan over a thousand convicted. felons and over a hundred murderers and. their brains are very damaged.