BILL GATES REVEALS: "I Was Wrong About Success…"

This is a world where somebody can have. over a hundred billion dollars. What is. that? These fortunes are almost. illegitimate unless in a very smart way. given back. One of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy. Exploring and investing in innovative. solutions to some of the world's. toughest problems. Bill Gates. Starting. with Microsoft where I had monomaniacal. focus, giving up weekends and vacation. wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it. The idea that everybody would use.

computer was somewhat ridiculed. So, it. was kind of fun saying, "No, no, this is. really going to be mainstream." If you. look at it from the outside, you see. Steve Jobs and yourself having this. competition, envy, jealousy. What was it. actually like? He said we were the General Motors and. he was Mercedes. Social networking, we're still arguing about what the. policy should be. Algorithms reward. outrageous things even if they're not at. all factual. I've always underestimated. how incredible my father was. He would.

say, "Hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard.". And I'd say, "No, no, that was fine." I. feel lucky that he lived as long as he. did. It brings tears to my eyes because. he was. incredible. Do you remember one of the final. conversations you had with him? The number one health and wellness. podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one. and only Jay Shetty. There's so much conversation today I. feel about work-life balance. Do you.

think that that sacrifice and that. dedicated time was necessary for the. levels of success or would it have been. possible in another way? No, I think for. Microsoft to be successful, even though. we were the first, we and we had a. broader concept of software than the. other companies, we needed to be what I. would call hardcore. And you know, in that case, the work is. what I want to do. It's It's not like, "Oh God, you know, I've got to earn a. little bit more money." It's, you know,

this is the thing that throughout my. childhood I was so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some. early friends, school I went to, I had. these exposures. to computers that were very. rare. And so, I had, you know, all these. thousands of hours of programming. experience and great feedback on, "Okay, how do you do it better?" from the very. best adults. I got to see what was. coming, and the idea of being part of.

making that real, you know, I woke up and said, "Okay, I. I'd love to get to work." My younger. self could stay in, you know, days at a. time. I I don't do that now, but then it. was just in no way a. a hardship. You know, because I I, you. know, felt we were part of something. that uh was would be very empowering. And, you know, competitively I wanted us. to to be the ones to make it happen. One. of your favorite quotes that I've always. loved is you've said, "We overestimate.

what we can do in 1 year, and we. underestimate what we can do in 10. years." At the beginning, did you over. or underestimate yourself? Well, people, when they would hear us say a computer. on every desk and in every home uh. running Microsoft software, they were. like, "You kids are really out of it. I. mean, every desk, every home, you know, what would people do with these things?". But, because the chips were improving. exponentially, doubling every couple of.

years, it allowed us to think of the computing. part as essentially being free. And so, the only thing that would hold you back. is, you know, okay, can you help people. with photographs? Can you help them with. documents? Can you help them stay in. touch with people far away or find. information? And we knew over time. uh that as these things got better. it would would be part of the. mainstream. And so as people sort of.

came around to that, they were like, "Wow, whether it's at work or at home, this is just part of how how people do. things.". And we wanted, you know, to get it out. to everyone, you know, students. everywhere, you know, even in the the. countries that are are low-income. You. mentioned your parents earlier and when. I was reading this book, I felt like. they are such a big part of. this book and the storytelling and the. incredible experiences and memories. And.

one of the things you mentioned is you. say that they felt that they accepted. that you were different from your peers. And I was wondering in what way? How did. you know that they'd seen that and. accepted that? Well, it definitely. compounded them that sometimes I was. pushing back in a pretty tough way, you. know, as though, you know, we were in. some competition. They would hear from teachers and they. were very good about staying in touch. with my my teachers. You know, some. teachers would say this kid should be. skipped ahead one or two grades. Some.

teachers would say this kid should be. held back. You know, so that kind of is. what, you know, make up your mind. You. know, I had one experience where I. worked on a a report about the state of. Delaware and I ended up doing this. 200-page report with the gray wood. cover. Well, the other kids turned in, you know, five or 10 page reports. And. it was very embarrassing that I thought, "Wow, did I, you know, kind of overdo. this thing?". And yet, you know, that ability to. concentrate,

you know, would hold me in good stead in. terms of reading long books and applying. that concentration and curiosity first. to cards, then to math, and then finally. to software and how would software. change the world. But, you know, they. were never were quite sure what to do. And, you know, sending me to a therapist. actually ended up being brilliant. Uh, and sending me to a very nice private. school where the classes were a bit. smaller. And, you know, I could get I.

always got an unfair share of attention. from the teachers. You know, we'd have. like 15 people in the class, but, you. know, almost 20% of the teacher's time. in terms of telling me what to read or, you know, marking uh, my writing up. You. know, I I got an unfair share, partly. because my curiosity or energy level, you know, did mark me out uh, in both. positive and and negative ways. Yeah, what what influence do you think Dr. Cressey actually had on you? Because.

therapy at that time, and in your early. age, looking back on it now, what do you. feel it gave you? What skills did it. give you? Well, it's a very it was a. very rare thing. In fact, the other. people coming to him were these couples. that were having arguments. And so, in a. I hope privacy-appropriate way, he would. get kind of give me a sense of that. He. gave me a few IQ tests. He, you know, had me read about Freud and all these. things. But, slowly but surely, he was. saying to me that. fighting your parents really has no.

purpose. I mean, they really do love. you. They're on your side. You should. apply your energy, uh, towards other. things. And, you know, eventually, he. made me feel kind of foolish. Like, yeah, why was I taking these what I. thought were kind of arbitrary rules or. where my mom would say, "You should. respect me." And I'd say, "Well, you. know, I don't know." And, a little bit, as I figured out, I could understand. things like playing cards as well or.

better than my grandmother. Or, you. know, I could read books that had. complicated things. I was a bit showing. off to saying, "Because my cognition is good, why. should you be able to set arbitrary. rules?" But, anyway, I'm embarrassed. when I think about it now. Uh but, Dr. Cressy. was so encouraging to me in general and. then got across. uh he probably understood at the first. meeting, you know, that I. uh had to be convinced to make this. change, but he did it in this uh super.

nice way. And And so, the idea that no, my parents, yes, they're imperfect, but wow, they're on. my side. That that changed my behavior. Yeah, and did he also had these. beautiful ways of you said he never. belittled you. And I believe he used to mention to you. you're going to win or or he wanted you. to win. And I feel like that's What What. did those things do? Because it's almost. like you're saying he made you have this. almost this.

realization that you were wrong, but it. seemed like he did it in a very. graceful, elegant way. Like, how did how. did he do that? Absolutely, they. you know, I thought, oh, I need to be so. clever to win, and I'm going to apply. all this energy to win. And so, the idea. when he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh, I see, it's not because. I'm clever, it's because it's us, you. know, they they care for me and they're. trying, you know, to help me, and you. know, their main concern is am I ready,

you know, to go out in the world, and if. I have capabilities, will I. develop those and use those, and. you know, my mom always had a way of. kind of pushing me to do more. I said to. her once, you know, you told me to go to. the hardest school, and she said, no, I. never actually said that. And I said to. her, well, wait a minute, when other. parents would come over, you'd say how. bad they must feel that their kid didn't. go to college or something like that. So, okay, it was indirect, but, you.

know, it was kind of there. So, you know, my mom certainly encouraged. me, you know, and sometimes I felt. overwhelmed by that, but my eventual. reaction to just okay, try to outdo any. level she set and ended up working out. well. Yeah, what was something that you. didn't value about your mom at that time. that now looking back you say no, I do. value that. Well, things like table. manners. I'm like, well, you know, okay, I have.

to take the ketchup and put it in a bowl. and then do this and I'm not supposed to. put my elbows on the table and you know, she was just, you know, trying to make. sure I was. civilized a little bit, you know. What I. would wear and they definitely got me. engaged with adults, you know, my social. skills were. slow to develop with people other than a. few boys like myself, but with adults. because they were having them over.

and I, you know, got so I could ask. those adults to talk about what they. were doing. That was really valuable to. me cuz I ended up through that and. through one of my early friends having. more of an outlook of okay, where am I. headed at quite a young age, which. was was super helpful. Yeah, it's so. it's so funny as I was reading the book, I was reminded of so when I graduated. from college, I didn't go to my. graduation ceremony because I left to. become a monk. Wow.

And my parents were. they were very kind and accepting of my. decision, but my mother still has this. feeling that she doesn't have a picture. of me graduating wearing the hat and you. know, holding my certificate and I. remember I was having the same feeling. that you were where my mom would always. maybe say to me, oh, when I go to my. friends' houses, they're telling me. about all the jobs that their kids are. doing and the apartment they just moved. into and you're just there being a monk. like, you know, she'd say that to me. And it was always that kind of feeling. like that that sense of pressure to live.

up to something she wanted me to do even. though there was love and there was. acceptance. And I was wondering for you. like you you said it yourself she was. such a powerhouse. She had such high. expectations. When did you feel that. you've reached that or do you feel. you've reached that? Well, unfortunately. my mom passed away in her early 60s. She. she got breast cancer. And so I. I got married 6 months before she passes.

away. So she never got to see that I. tried to follow her example as a parent. She never got to see the foundation. get going. My dad actually ran the. foundation and got it off to a fantastic. start. So he was involved but her sort. of dictate about okay, if you are. successful you have to give back. It's a. a shame that she didn't get to. kind of participate and. see that I'm following what she said.

despite all the times I I pushed back on. her. Yeah, do you still feel that today. that it's almost like she her voice is. in your head and she's present in that. way? Oh, absolutely. The you know, the. sense I have of okay, I've got to do. this and do that well. That's you know, really came from her. My dad more set. the example being calm and thoughtful. You know, also great great values but. much. you know, it wasn't through. the the interaction. He would you know,

leave pretty early and if my mom had to. escalate call him in you knew you better. give in. cuz that was kind of the the ultimate. thing. But yeah, so each in their own. way. he through example her through high. expectations. deserve a lot of credit and you know, part of this book is to really honor. them and. two of the young friends I had who set. me on a. great path. Well, it's pretty insane.

this is a world where somebody can have. over a hundred billion dollars. I mean. that. you know, what is that? You know, you. don't want to just give that to children. and create some dynasty. That's not even. a favor to them. Sadly, the wealth. metric is. an easier one to compute than. you know, the impact you've had. philanthropically. I have a. a. good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and.

Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe that. drives everybody else together. I don't. know. I was wondering what was your biggest. realization about your father from. writing this book? It's weird. I've. always underestimated how. incredible my father was. His. his values, even the exchange with my. mom, you know, before they get married. His one of his dreams was to be a. federal judge and he eventually that was.

offered to him. and because his law firm would have. had great difficulty, he said, "No, I. that would hurt my college, so I'm not. going to do that." And I had written him. a note saying, "Gosh, I hope it's not. cuz you had to pay all that tuition that. you're not getting to do this." And I'd. forgotten he'd written me back such a. nice note. So, you know, in digging. through I'm amazed we end up keeping. those things. It was so touching to me. Now, I you know, I'll I'll spend my.

whole life trying to live up to to the. example he set. What was it like finding that reply. forgetting that he had replied? I mean. No, I well, certainly it it brings tears. to my eyes because you know, he he he. was. incredible. And towards the end of his. life we did get a little more. direct, you know, where he would say, "Hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard." And. I'd say, "No, no, no, that was fine to. to be doing that." You know, and so. instead of things being sort of through.

my mom, when she was gone, he had to. build up that communication. And in a. way it was far more intimate. You know, I I feel lucky that he lived as long as. he did. Mhm. How did How did that as. that relationship evolves? Like it felt. like when I was reading Source Code, I. felt like your father was there to. always save you in these moments. Like. he'd pick up the phone, he'd be involved. in, you know, talking to you and your. friends. Like he was there in these very. pivotal moments that felt like almost. professional support from him, of. course, based on his intelligence and.

background as well, but it sounds like. that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space. Like what does that What. does that look like for a father and a. son across all those years? You know, and when I was going off to college, you. know, I'd call my parents every couple. of weeks, but, you know, you couldn't. like text and send photos. And so, but I. always knew, you know, that. they were supportive. And so I actually. got into a little bit of trouble where. I'd taken my colleagues into the.

computer center and done some of the. early Microsoft BASIC work. And the. college, as they filled position to. supervise that computer center, were. like, "Wow, did you break the rules?". And, you know, my dad was always so kind. of wise, you know, when I ever was like, "Oh my god, I may. I've screwed up here. I I better get on. top of this." You know, that's the time. where I call him in and. his advice is very helpful. You know,

then later, we have a customer who's not. paying us. And our very first. customer, another case where. my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So it wasn't in those days that I talked. to him a lot, but that when I was in. trouble, he was the one person, you. know, who was so sophisticated. and, you know, on my side that his. advice really did. uh help me at at a lot of uh key uh.

turning points. And, you know, then later when we have a. relationship where we actually talk. intimately, I I was able to. to thank him for that. Do you remember. one of the final conversations you had. with him? And Well, he got Alzheimer's and he. because he was such a nice person, he. was still like super nice, you know, always worried did his caregivers get. enough meals or, you know, eventually. the fact he grew up in the depression.

showed cuz he'd be worried about, you. know, are we buying too expensive a. meal, you know, even though he had as. much money as he he he could ever need, you know, so, you know, we got back to. his basic character which was just very. uh friendly and and thoughtful. Uh. so, yes, I I feel like in his case we. did have those conversations that that I. I never got to have with my mom. Hm. Does the one phone call you described,

the three words he used of I hear you. when he was talking uh to the school and. that left such a strong imprint, could. you tell us why that was such a big. moment for you at that time? Well, I was in this uh contract. discussion with this group I thought, you know, owed me some computer time. So, that's the first time that my dad. is pitching in to help and you know, I. thought, what's he going to do? Is he. going to, you know, threaten them or be tough on them? And,

no, not at all. The fact that they sort. of gave their side of the argument and. then, you know, he just simply said, I. hear you, which was this very this way. of saying. you know, I don't agree with that. You know, let's try and reach a. compromise here. You have your point of. view. So, just the way he said I hear. you, you know, kept things really calm, didn't. acknowledge or attack their position, so.

we could get on to the hey, you know, if. you meet these guys halfway. isn't that okay for both of you here, which is is what. uh eventually came out of it. And so, the idea of being subtle and helping to. find that common ground, I was young. enough to. that was kind of blew my mind. Yeah, wow, you can kind of. uh hold your ground, but without being. provocative. What would you say is the.

one way your. mother influenced your parenting style. and then your father influenced your. parenting style? Well, this idea that uh. is actually. a kind of school called love and logic. where you make expectations to the child. very, very clear and you make. consequences very, very clear. And in an. unemotional way, you say, "No, you're. going to have to go to your room because. we agreed if you did this, that's what. happens." My dad. practiced that approach. My mom probably.

wanted to, but then if she was. frustrated, you know, she'd be, "Oh, I'm. so disappointed." and kind of bring. emotion into it. So, the intensity of. how much my mom cared, I. you know, I think that was was great. And I think kind of that calm, predictable hey, the world uh works in a. clear way and, you know, I'm on top of. the world and here's what I need from. you, you know, that very much came from. my dad. So, I tried to be a little more.

round. You know, my my wife Melinda. did deserves all the credit, you know, that our kids have come out so well cuz. she worked really well around, but I I. tried to be that's the one thing I did a. bit differently than my dad was was uh. more more intense vacation time, a. little bit more of a direct. communication, not through their mother. How did you reconcile that towards the. end about your father's style, and how. did you make space for that and accept.

that? In that generation, you know, my dad's career was a very big. thing. In fact, having a all sorts of. adults around for events, you know, was. connected to his career, and you know, he did very well. He was a. a top lawyer in Seattle. So, I never. resented the idea that that my my dad. was very busy. You know, you had kids. early, you know, the man's career is. important. Later, my mom also, not only. is doing volunteer activities, but as.

people wanted women on boards, because she had the right background, she got a huge number of those. opportunities, and she. uh got a little busier self. Um you. know, I don't think the amount of time. is is the only the only key factor. there. Yeah, I'd have to agree. I was I. when I was reading it, too, I was. thinking that. And and this was what I found so. interesting, Bill, when I was reading. Source Code, that even though you have. lived such a otherworldly life in so.

many ways, there were so many relatable. moments from a a parenting standpoint. And when I was reading it, I was. thinking about my father, too, who. wasn't around a lot when I was younger. He was working. Both my parents had to. work. And to the point you just made right. now, like my father wasn't there when I. was playing rugby, or he wasn't there. when I was swimming for my, you know, local club, or he he wasn't there on the. sidelines cheering. And for me, that really allowed me to. become the man I wanted to be, and it.

allowed me to have more freedom almost. to not feel like there was this heavy. expectation and I've always seen that as. a positive thing because it allowed me. to have a broader definition of what it. meant to be a man, what it meant to be a. son, what what it meant to go off and. discover something that I was passionate. about. And so even seeing you kind of. having your mother be the one who was. almost, you know, pushing the. expectation and what the family should. be but then having a bit of freedom, it. was interesting to see how that impacted.

you to be able to push back, to be able. to, you know, even at one point like you. said in that letter like parent him. almost in his decision. Uh and and and. play that role. So it was it was. refreshing for me to read a book about. you where I was where I was actually. seeing parts of myself uh in certain. relationships in a very relatable way. Did you Did you ever anticipate that. when you were writing it? I was. surprised. You know, so when I'm. describing going on those hikes, I was thinking, "Boy, would I have let.

my son. go off?". Uh. and we really are holding back children. a bit more, you know, out of a sense of, "Okay, ultimate safety, I guess." But, you know, in that generation, I was. allowed to take trips and hikes and and. I think it benefited me. And so writing. the book, I was like, "Wow." And you. you've talked with people like Jonathan. Haidt about this. You know, are we a bit. overprotecting.

you know, kids so that they don't get to. make, you know, mistakes or try. themselves out or mature. the way that is is best for them. Mhm. Do you think school's failing children? If you have 30 people in a class, it's. it's pretty tough. You're going to have. some kids who are behind and some who. are ahead. You know, even the best. teacher has got a a big challenge with. that. Education I wouldn't say is much. better or worse today than a few decades. ago. We've always thought, okay, when we. bring the computer in, you know, will.

that helpful? And certainly if you want. to find information, it's been great. We're still working on that. Now with. the. AI, maybe a personal tutor will be. encouraging and work on your level. Uh. it's early days, but I've been out. seeing. some of that in classrooms, people like. Sal Khan with Khan Academy that our. foundation is. is helping to support. But education. uh. it the the the computer has not made it. so oh wow, kids learn a lot more today.

uh than they did did a long time ago. And I I I still believe we can change. that. But it means if you're in one of. those large classes, you can feel lost. And you know, we're we're missing, you. know, great human potential. You tend to. manage other people the way you manage. yourself. The first time I felt it was. when I was hiring people. who moved their family and they had. kids. And I was like, if I can't pay. this guy's check, this is rude. You. know, he's got a real problem and I'm.

kind of implicitly promising him, I've. got this thing figured out. Uh so that. scared me. What is your favorite mental. health habit? This show is sponsored by. BetterHelp. We talk a lot about red. flags in relationships, the things to. avoid. But what about green flags? Those. qualities that show someone is kind, supportive, and emotionally safe. Like. when they listen with empathy, respect. your boundaries, or celebrate your. growth. Therapy helps you not only spot.

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What are we getting wrong because it. sounds like you thought maybe the. computer would. give people that impetus and the ability. to download more and learn more. Where. have we gone wrong? Well, the key is is. motivation. If you have a kid who's. super motivated, then yes, going to the. Khan website and doing, you know, hours. of math problems, that's great. But in a. way, that takes the kid who's in that. top. 20% and makes him even more intimidating.

to the other ones. And, you know, people. can come in and if a kid in eighth grade. says, "Is math a subject. you have any confidence in?" If they. answer no to that, they're five times. more likely to drop out. And so, we do. lose kids. And it's more out of. motivation. And so, most of the stuff. we've done on the computer is about, "Okay, if you are motivated, we'll help. you out." And not so much about how you.

make it feel relevant to them and give. them a sense of success. Mhm. And maybe. this time around with these AI personal. tutors, we'll we'll get that right. But. kids check out, uh, "No, I'm I'm not one. of those kids who's good at math even. though for a lot of professions and you. know for college courses we require. algebra two. tests to be passed in order to go on and. you know even be a nurse or a a.

policeman. So we have we have work to do. but more on on the motivational side. Yeah, I really I really appreciate you. saying that actually because I do think. that we think about changing education. is so theoretical and functional but it. is the drive it is the motivation and I. was thinking about how we put limits on. ourselves. When I finished sixth grade I. remember before I went to high school my. favorite subject was math in sixth grade. and my least favorite subject was art. and then when I finished high school my.

most favorite subject was art and my. least favorite subject was math. Huh. And it was just fascinating to me how. that completely flipped over a. seven-year period and as as I've grown. up in my own life I found that art and. design philosophy economics are far more. where I naturally gravitate toward but. so much of that up until sixth grade was. the limits or the things that were. expected of me as opposed to what I was. motivated and driven towards and I was. thinking about something you said in the. book you you said that if you were. growing up today you would have been.

diagnosed with being on the autism. spectrum and I was wondering how would. that have affected you? How do you think. that would have affected you? Yeah, I'm. fascinated by that because for some. people being given a label is a. pejorative to them and you know almost. feels shameful although we know you know. being on the spectrum gives you you know. almost some superpowers of concentration. that if you find the right place it can. be helpful. Other people.

it they're glad when they get that. because then it they say oh that's why. you know my social skills were slow to. develop and you know here's some. strategies that people like me have. used. I'm not alone in this. You know, I. I fit in into this and it's actually a. reasonably common thing. There isn't like some medicine ADHD, you. know, which I probably also would have. been diagnosed with. Uh they do have the.

Focalin, Adderall, a variety of things. they give kids for that. And I I still. wonder about that. I haven't chosen as. an adult to get a diagnosis or use those. medicines. I think eventually you learn. to, you know, adapt. I still kind of. rock a little bit that when I'm thinking. hard and without even knowing it and it. does bother people sometimes. And that's. definitely kind of a what they call. self-stimulation. behavior that, you know, makes it pretty.

likely I I fit into that diagnosis. Do you think it would have changed your. trajectory of success? Have you thought. about that or I I worry that I might. have thought of it as pejorative. It's. It's really how you communicate it. I. mean, if you say, "Hey, here's a kid who. doesn't socialize at all." and you're, you know, sort of destined to, you know, never. be good at those things. Um you know,

obviously to create a company, hire. people, motivate people, go out and, you. know, sell the the dream of computing. I've had to, even though I'm not a. natural, you know, develop a lot of. social behaviors. And it might have. discouraged me unless it it was done in. a a very tasteful way. You know, I think. of that Dr. Cressy experience where he. didn't make me feel terrible while. enlightening me that I was wasting.

my time as well as my parents' time. Yeah, did you did you continue therapy. after that or ever go therapy again? most periods of my life. I found it useful to have a therapist. where I'm talking to about you know, what's confusing or or what's troubling. I think you know, I'm I'm very lucky to. have that. I think particularly if you. have a life where some extreme things. happen that.

you know, luck is a huge part of that to. you know, keep your. you know, keep you on the ground. A good therapist. can play an invaluable role there. So, yeah, I've I've. benefited to this day from those kind of. conversations. Yeah, well, I was. thinking about in the book, obviously. you beautifully introduced us to Kent. And obviously the loss of Kent seems to. be a place in your memory that's. naturally so. difficult and and fuzzy and you talk.

about in the book how. you're not quite sure what your parents. would have said and and how it all felt. And I was just wondering if there were. any Did you Did you have support at that. time through therapy and other ways to. deal with that grief? No, and I've been. looking recently at people like Anderson. Cooper talking about, okay, how do you deal with grief? And you. know, a lot of what they come up with is. that if you can keep talking about the. person and you know, what you got from. them, you're kind of honoring them. You. know, Kent's parents obviously.

were. the most affected by this because you. know, they would never have this. incredible son and you know, who would. have no doubt gone off and done. incredible things. And I remember. spending time with them for like a year. afterwards and then feeling a bit guilty. that as I got busy. uh I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book I actually start out where. I've seen Kent's father, I run into him.

right as I'm. uh starting work on the book and you. know, we can talk about what a great. influence he had on me and you know, so. I did I did think that was helpful, but. boy, it took me a long time because. death. it was just such a shocking thing. I. have this idyllic childhood other than. Kent's death, nothing at all. traumatic and we're talking all the. time. You know, a little bit I reach out to.

Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen who goes. on to found Microsoft with me to step in. and you know, be that that super close. friend. Um, but back then the idea of how you. dealt with trauma was mostly hey, buck. up, you know, get on with things which. after a few months I. I did. Yeah, and also at the time you're. talking about how he actually invited. you on the trip he went to. And like you're talking just before he. goes off and then all of a sudden you're.

like, wait a minute, we used to talk. every day or. you know, and and that it can feel so. disassociated from yourself in that. moment it feels like. How did you. revisit that when did you kind of turn. towards working through the grief as you. wrote the book? Did it feel like you. were revisiting it because it was left. unsaid? You know, at the that high school when I. I built a hall in his name and you know, gone out there and talked a. a little bit about. um. the the role that Kent played in my.

evolution. You know, so. some efforts to. honor him. You know, sadly you know, Paul Allen. also, the other key friend in this book, died I think about 6 years ago. from cancer and you know, he he also was. very key at getting me on. the right path and there wouldn't be. you know, without those those two. friends, you know, there really wouldn't. probably wouldn't be anything like.

Microsoft. Yeah, you talk about how Paul. was setting you little challenges and. would ask you to, you know, try this or. do that and then you'd go ahead and I. was thinking how amazing to have a. friend that can motivate and inspire you. in that way. And then I was thinking. about what you just said when. I was reading the book that. it felt like you told so many stories of. so many people in your life that are no. longer here now. And so grief wasn't. just about Ken or Paul. It was there's. so, you know, just so many individuals. that you've had. life with that you're having to process.

that with. What has been helpful for you. genuinely deeply inside that has. led to some sort of helpful direction. with that grief of. writing a book about all these wonderful. people that you've lost? Well, most of my life has been about. looking forward. Yeah. And okay, let's. get this innovation. Let's do it first. And you know, whether it's software. uh saving children's lives, which is the. the big foundation thing. And it is a little bit unnatural.

for me to look back because you have to. say, okay, how do I describe. my relationship with my mom in a open, honest way and and yet honor. her. You know, how do I talk about Ken? Well, I don't know if he'd lived what. would have happened, but. uh you know, probably you know, something that he he would have very. much been a part of it. And so it's it's. awkward to look back because you you. have to deal with these things and talk. about, you know, you know, should have I.

have spent more time with his parents. afterwards, you know, cuz eventually I I. stopped doing that. Uh but, you know, this year I turn 70. I mentally don't feel like I think of a. 70-year-old, but you know, it means, you. know, I'm in the the final third uh. no doubt of, you know, what I I've been. very lucky to to live. And so, you know, I I really did force myself saying no, there's some lessons out of this, you.

know, telling people how lucky I was and. maybe a few lessons for them as as. parents or how they. uh. navigate. uh success. And so, once we got going on it, I've. enjoyed it quite a bit. I have to say I. when I'm reviewing it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm, you know, reliving these things. So, it always. takes me about three times longer to. take some pages and and edit than I I. predict. Or if it was, you know, something like about climate or.

pandemics, you know, I'm I'm pretty. fast. There's no deep emotion that I. have to relive as I'm uh. editing uh. something scientific. Yeah, what what. was your favorite part to relive and. what was the hardest part to relive? Well, everything about the fascination. we had and it's like, "What? We see this. thing. These computers are going to be. amazing and but no one else is saying. that, so we must be wrong.".

Um. That's crazy. you know, that contradiction. So, you. know, Paul. actually I helped him get a job out in. Boston so he could be out there and and. bugging me that, "Okay, should we go. build a company?" And then finally when. this kit computer, which is so limited, but it's the beginning of the. revolution, when that comes out, then, you know, Paul's argument we should go. and do something, he he wins because we.

don't want to be left behind. We want to. want to be there from the very. beginning. And then we meet a few. people, although it was still very small. movement. We meet other people like. Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, who also, you. know, have been infected with this idea. of, "Okay, we're on the to something. that. uh is going to be huge. That Paul, I. mean the the reasons that you did to. find in this book, I was every time I. was reading I was just like, how do you. have so much detail? I was really blown. away by the level of detail.

both in the storytelling, every moment, but then even there's that note that you. have that says Steve Jobs called was. rude. I was just like, you know, even just. having that back then I was I was. laughing as I read it. And I and I was. wondering like I feel like as from the. outside. and naturally and and you talk about. this later on in the book how we see. people as this like slither of who they. are and people have a public profile and. that becomes their brand and if you look.

at it from the outside you see Steve. Jobs and yourself having this. competition, envy, jealousy, kind of. like arch-rival, nemesis kind of. portrayal. What was it actually like? Because it In the book it comes across. much more um. inviting than that as opposed to this. kind of harsh rivalry. Well, I had a fantastic relationship. with Steve, you know, early on. I got to do the the basic which they. called AppleSoft that went with every. uh Apple II computer. Uh so I worked.

with both Jobs and Wozniak uh to get. that done. Then later as Steve has a. kind of small group inside Apple doing. the Macintosh. he invited Microsoft to write. application software a spreadsheet, word. processor for it. And so we actually had. as many people as they did and we worked. very closely on that project and he and. I loved the fact that, you know, that. ended up being a a key Apple product. Um.

then he leaves Apple. I talked to him. about next but I never thought that. computer would do that well so he was. disappointed. Uh but then when he goes back and he's. unbelievable what a great job he did. because Apple went from being on the way. to dying to being the world's most. valuable company and Steve had really. matured and it's was something and I you. know we we helped write software for. that. Then later when Steve uh is sick,

we had about five different. conversations where we got to talk about. kids and you know had computers done. well and you know where he was pretty. thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve. you know his kill set and mine other. than okay, you know madman leader, you. know, drawing people in but he his taste. in design and user interface and even. his intuition about people, he was just.

genius in a way you can't explain. He. didn't look at code and write code. whereas you know my. thing is hey, I'm an engineer, you know, here's the code. Let's make it faster. and and smaller. So actually that. allowed us to get along because you know. what he was super good at I was not good. at. I envied those just incredible. talents that he had. And so many he's. more singular. You know, if you say to. me are there other people like you who. are great at writing code and.

conceptualizing thing yeah, I can name a. number of people including many who. worked with me. But I don't know. somebody who's who I say oh yeah, you. know, he he's just like Steve Jobs. Well, well that's very humble of you as. well. I mean that's it's beautiful to. hear. What were some of those final. conversations like that you had with him. that were potentially I always felt like. he was so philosophical and maybe more. so in those moments. Yeah, we did one. public appearance you know where we were. being thoughtful about the friendship.

Walt Mossberg had us had us on stage. together which was definitely a fun. thing and surprised people because Steve. was very harsh. Uh, you know, he was a, you know, always. he said we were the General Motors and. he was like the Mercedes. Uh, but, you know, all in. uh, it was all a very fair. Well, we you. know, we reflected that computers really. hadn't improved education and we're both. he and I had given speeches saying, "Of.

course, this will be make education, you. know, five times better." And you're. like, "Wow, uh, we got that one wrong. Maybe, you know, maybe next round, uh, we'll. deliver on that promise." And, you know, how unusual it was, and even a little. bit lonely that, you know, you when you. were so successful and then you're. having doubts about, "Okay, are we. making uh, mistakes here?" Um, you know, both of us had had kids by. then. He was actually, uh, you know, of.

course, he not only did Apple, he did. the Pixar stuff. And because that was a. realm I I'm not in, I, you know, could. sincerely tell him what a brilliant job. he did. Now, partly picking people, but. that's, you know, kind of amazing, uh, you know, now part of of Disney. And you know, and both a sense of. thankfulness, although. you know, he was very sick and just. hoping some new drug would come along. and tragically it it didn't.

Yeah, was there a memorable memorable. piece of advice or conversation where. you said something to him or he said. something to you that stayed with you? Well, the fact that, you know, why were. we both so competitive and pushing. ahead? I I think both of us, you know, in his case, he's an orphan, so he has a. more complicated childhood that maybe. can explain his zeal. Um, I don't have. any thing like that, you know, even. though Kent died, that's not why, you. know, well before that I was somehow.

always, you know, pushing as hard as I. could be. Um and you know, I think both of us, you. know, being thankful for what we'd been. able to work on. I mean, you know, we. got more of a front row seat and help. build this thing. Steve never got around. to doing philanthropy. Now his uh widow. Laurene is doing great philanthropy. So, you know, that's. uh I'm sure he'd he'd be proud of that. But he didn't get to that stage and I.

was just getting into that stage. So, I. shared with him a little bit about wow, a lot of children die and we don't do. much to stop that and that kind of. intrigued him. But then, he never got to. pursue it. Yeah, you're you're reminding. me of something I read in Bob Iger's. book where he was talking about how. there was a time when Spielberg, George. Lucas they'd all sit together and then. they'd watch each other's movies and. give them feedback. And they all felt. very confident doing that because they. knew their strengths and their. uniqueness.

was so diverse. And so, they didn't feel. threatened that oh, well, Steven's going. to steal my idea or you know, George. Lucas is going to steal my idea because. they felt so confident and it sounds. like even for yourself as competitors to. talk, to have a relationship. Does that. still happen today? Do Do competitors. talk? Do they pick up the phone to each. other or is that very rare because it. feels like if it feels differently now. So, less. Uh I have a. a. good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and.

Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Uh maybe that. drives everybody else together. I don't. know. Uh and you know, over time I think. Elon uh. as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow out. a little bit and uh you know, probably. be a incredible philanthropist based on. everything else that he's done. But yes, there is some good conversation. You. know, Larry Ellison is now in a phase. where he's. doing some excellent uh philanthropy and. and we're all a bit more reflective. I.

mean, hopefully by the time you get to. 70 you've been you've been hyper. successful you can, you know, relax and. let your guard down a little bit and, you know, laugh about. the things you got wrong. Yeah, what. what was some of the advice that you've. given to Mark or especially earlier on. his journey or even more recently? Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft. the one. big challenge we had is we were so. successful by the late 90s that we got. into antitrust. and in retrospect we could have handled.

that better and so I've been very open. with Mark. You know, I used to brag that. I didn't have an office in DC and I. didn't, you know, what a great country. that I didn't have to talk to. politicians. Well, that was a mistake. And you know, now, you know, you've got. all of them going to the inauguration. and, you know, so they're not they're. not making that mistake. Maybe they Have they corrected it too. much in the other direction? Well, you. know, history will will judge. So yeah,

I'm, you know, it's weird to be kind of. an elder statesman. Uh, you know, Satya who runs Microsoft. has done such a a brilliant job and. and one of my great fears when I left. Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how. bad I would feel. if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Ballmer did a great job and. now Satya's with this AI generation. So. I've. that's another great blessing is that. not only the value of the stock but also.

the fact I can just focus on, okay, what. about polio and malaria, you know, knowing that they're they're taking the. the company to new heights. You know, what what a great blessing. that's been for me. Yeah, it seems like. I love what you were just saying now. that, you know, maybe there'll be a time. when Elon turns to philanthropy and you. talked about others and it. and it seems that that turning point for. you is so key and I feel like you were. one of the first, not that it wasn't.

done before, but one of the first to do. it in a really big way to be able to. move away from this big company that you. founded, world-changing, um generation-changing, and then turning. to that. And that service element to me, I was. intrigued as to. what Why do you believe that that's. almost where every one of these people. need to go? Like, why is it that you. believe that turning to a life of. service and giving back is core for Elon. or whoever else it may be? Well, it's. pretty insane. This is a world where.

somebody can have. over a hundred billion dollars. I mean, that it You know, what is that? And it's. not. you know, you don't want to just give. that to children and create some. dynasty. That's not even a favor to. them. You want to give that back. So, these. are unprecedented. fortunes. And if you're a great. innovator and you know how to gather. scientists together and think about. problems, then there are some Government.

is risk-averse, and particularly poor. countries don't have that capacity to. think about eradicating malaria. or solving malnutrition. It. there is something that. philanthropy can have these outsized. results in terms of lives saved, almost. like, you know, a great startup. uh. does on the side of innovation. So, getting those minds to turn those. capacities to equity to the poorest both.

inside the US and. outside the US, you know, I feel that, you know, we've got the golden rule, we're we're supposed to care about. people. There are times when it feels. like sympathy for poor people outside. the country is lower today. uh than it's been, but I know that'll. come back around because of the. the moral. logic there, I think. I. I believe is is is very, very strong. And I, you know, I found it so.

fulfilling. And I created a group called Giving. Pledge of. people who've. committed to give the majority of their. wealth away. And we learn from each. other, hopefully we inspire each other, and hopefully we change the societal. expectations that if you have even a. modest fortune, most of it should. combine with your your talents and make. the world a a bit more of a of a fair, fair place. Yeah, I think I I think it's.

absolutely brilliant because I was. really fortunate when I when I went out. and lived. as part of my time as a monk in India. We helped put together a Well, the monks. were doing it already, but I I got to be. a part of it. I helped build a. daily food distribution service in India. that feeds a million kids a day. And it. was all in exactly what you're saying, like to help them malnutrition children. And now they're even trying to figure. out how much protein to have in it. Like. trying to figure out the actual. composition as well. And I remember.

seeing that so early in my life. Like I. would have gone out there first time in. my teens and then later on when I became. a monk in my early 20s. But the reason I. raise it is because I think it goes back. to what the point you made earlier about. motivation. And one thing I've really been trying to. figure out with the right partner. recently is how when I grew up, I. remember my dad used to read the rich. list. And he'd have the rich list, like. the Sunday Times or whatever it was. And. so as a kid, I would see my dad and on. the back of it would be the rich list.

And I was thinking, how incredible would. it be if kids grew up with a service. list? And how would that change. motivation? Because I feel we reward we. repeat what we reward. And I feel like. we've never really seen that case study. yet up until maybe, you know, your case study and and the people that. are following with the Giving Pledge, that service becomes a natural part of. life at that scale. I think we see it in. smaller communities, you see people with. very little actually doing so much, but.

you don't necessarily see it at that. level. And so, I find that changing that. drive and motivation early on, which it. seemed like your mother had for you, your impact of faith had in you, I think. that could be huge. I don't know what. you think about people seeing a service. list instead of a rich list or whatever. the right word is. Sadly, the wealth. metric is. an easier one to compute than, uh, you know, the impact you've had. philanthropically. And part of the beauty of philanthropy.

is there's many causes out there. You. know, I've tried to think through, okay, you know, since we know how to save. lives for a thousand dollars per life. saved, uh, we better, you know, use this. money, uh, as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're going to see a rise. in philanthropy. I mean, you know, these fortunes are almost. illegitimate unless. they are.

in a very smart way given back. If it's. consumption, if it's dynasty, I don't think society should feel. that good about it. And, you know, I I. sat down with Bernie Sanders and he said. no, he would outlaw billionaires. I I. think that's a mistake. I think allowing. in America in particular. wild innovation, wild risk-taking, uh, is good. But then on the back side of. that, there there should be a strong.

expectation. And I think role models. help a lot. You know, Warren Buffett in. very different industry, very different. skill set. You know, he's always been a. role model and was the one who who even. when I was uh still building the. fortune, said, "Okay, your mom is right, you know, and here's some books you. should read, you know, Carnegie, Gospel. of Wealth, the history of what. Rockefeller did, you know, because this. this will be an important as as.

important a measure of your impact as as. making the money." Yeah, I think that's. such a brilliant lesson and wonderful. one to pass on. What. I think it was Trump who mentioned it. recently that you'd asked to see him to. have a discussion. Did that meeting ever. happened? Yeah, I had a a very long and actually. very impressive. dinner in terms of he asked good. questions. Uh. you know, I talked about over 10 million. people are alive because of US. generosity uh with HIV medicines going.

back to uh President Bush in 2003 and. you know, I encouraged him to keep that. as a priority and to accelerate. innovation. Uh you know, there's an idea. that you might be able to cure AIDS that. we're working on and he could help. accelerate that. I talked about polio. eradication and how uh his leadership. and the US government resources. are very important there and. you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to.

meet with him. The fact he gave me that. long period of time was actually pretty. thoughtful in his questions. You know, somebody may come along later. and tell them to cut that money, but I. make the argument as best I can uh that. you know, the moral purpose of the US. and and how we're thought of and and the. fact that a cure is is on its way. that's worthwhile. Uh you know, so. this administration is in charge and you. know, trying to help them. you know, they're willing to cancel old.

things, some of which should maybe be. canceled, some of which shouldn't, you. know, so they're. you know, helping direct them so they'll. use their open-mindedness to do. different things and try and make that. come out well. I. you know, I think that's that's worth. trying. Yeah, what what do you see as. the moral purpose of the United States. in the way you mentioned it just now? Well, we've been the shining light of. not only being a democracy. ourselves and. you know, having political opponents.

respect each other and work well. together, but also. you know, saying that even though we're. in this very powerful position, we won't. abuse that position. And okay, if we allowed ourselves, you. know, to let other people. spend a little on some things, you know, there's there's a balance there, but if. you become. too much of a bully and you're not. keeping. democracy, which, you know, requires. reducing the polarization.

uh and bridging uh some of these. divides, it that's a little bit scary. You know, democracy's a a fragile. concept and particularly at a time when. AI's coming along and the government. will have to play a strong role in. saying, "Okay, these jobs have been. lost, but we're more productive overall. and therefore. here's how we help. uh those people.". You know, how do we keep AI. as a primarily beneficial thing versus.

a. uh thing that bad people use and it. messes up these job markets. That I. expect the 2020 presidential debate AI. policies will be the most important. thing and I was a little bit surprised. in this election that wasn't uh. discussed hardly at all. Yeah, that's. such a good point. I didn't I didn't. actually think of that, but you're. right, it didn't it didn't come up at. all. Yeah, that's fascinating. What How. I mean, how do you prepare for something. like that? It would need.

need to be surrounded by the right. people and having the parties. Well, you've got to educate everyone, you. know, you can't count on the. technologists to shape these things, you. know, social networking, we're still. arguing about what the policy should be. and, you know, the fact that algorithms. reward outrageous things that. even if they're not at all factual. And. AI heightens all of that. And you know, this is an era where getting the. politicians to see.

the technology, including all this good. stuff, personal tutors, better medical. care, even making the government more. efficient, you know, this is the most. promising set of tools because. bureaucratic paperwork and AIs actually. are pretty darn good at at reading and. processing. those kinds of things. So, you know, we're on the precipice of. these AI breakthroughs, the reliability. and capabilities.

You know, it's kind of an extension of. what I worked on as a a child, you know, personal computers, then internet, then. cell phones, and now AI, but it's. because it's it's super intelligence. It's of a different character and we'll. it'll put us to the test on. how we work together within the US and. how how countries work together. Yeah, it's interesting because as you talk.

about social media there, I think Mark Zuckerberg on Joe Rogan was. saying that they are taking away their. fact-checkers and I believe X is X is. doing something similar. What was your. take on that? You know, this whole thing. about how you balance free speech. versus not. you know, discouraging people from using. vaccines when that would be beneficial. for them or. even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial. or. some bad things there. I'm a little bit disappointed that my.

generation hasn't got a clear. prescription. to how. we achieve both the goals, free speech. and yet. uh. uh reasonable discourse that's not. misleading people. I mean during the. pandemic you know, the negativity about. vaccines, some of which you know, had me. being some you know, weird mis- behaving. actor, you know, which was. a lot of craziness. You know, clearly over a million people.

died who. should have. benefited uh from the vaccine. And next time, you know, whether it's an. out of control AI or the next pandemic, the impact of of not getting facts out. could be much. more dramatic. I mean it the next you. could have a pathogen that was 10 times. or 20 times as fatal as COVID was. Particularly once Omicron comes along, the fatality rate is actually. reasonably modest and and mostly.

elder people. So, politics meets AI. uh is is where. a lot of our fates will be determined. even in the the next 10 years. And how. do you see a role in that? Well, hopefully there's something I I really. do uh understand about that and whether. it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my. foundation work on education and health, you know, using it. You know, the place.

where you have the greatest shortage of. teachers and doctors is in poor. countries in Africa. And so, the fact. that these things, you know, can give. farmers advice and give a pregnant women. advice and look at what your kid is. eating and say no, you need more protein. in this diet and it's essentially free, you know, the way that computing was. free. that I saw when I was young. Now we're. getting into this even more radical. thing of intelligence. will.

basically be free. You know, that. that's kind of wild stuff. So I hope. both with some specific ideas, but then. with the lessons of the past of you. know, where we've been able to shape. things so far. You know, so that I think personal. computing has largely been an empowering. thing. You know, I was reading this book. Nexus where Harari says that when the. printing press comes along. it actually is books about witches.

and how you find witches that are the. best selling. So. just thinking cuz we have new. capabilities that will necessarily use. them. at first in a net beneficial way. That's. sadly a naive concept. Yeah, that I mean you've raised such a. good point there. Even this idea I loved. what you said that you said you wish. your generation could have figured out. how to have. not have these extreme polarizing. conversations, but actually find this. healthy middle ground whether that be. through algorithms, whether that be. through how we use technology. What is.

it that. why do we keep doing that? It almost. feels like that's a repeated mistake. where we come across. this horizon of this new world, new. technology, new ideas, but then we. always use it for almost the same thing. or something that feels. you know, insignificant compared to what. it could do. Where where are we going. wrong? Why can't we get that right? Well, it's kind of amazing how well. humanity has done. You know, the. you know, the violent death rate over.

hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know, more recently we've gotten. vaccines out to children and gotten the. annual death rate from 10 million a year. to the of the. century down to about 5 million, vaccines being the biggest. uh part of that because we got them out. to most of the world's children. So, humanity for a a being that grew up in. these small hunter-gatherer groups, now, you know, we have uh big cities, complex. technology. Our ability to get along,

you know, in some ways has been good. You know, nuclear weapons that when I. was young, you know, my greatest fear. was, okay, there was going to be a. nuclear war. And I do worry the current generation uh. doesn't have that exposure to it's. worth, you know, the arms treaties and, you know, spending too much money on. building those weapons. I do worry that. we've lost. uh track on that one, but at least, you. know, we haven't uh used those. And, you know, we've done pretty well so.

far. And, you know, will we this time? I. think this is is probably the hardest. innovation because, you know, we do have. human limitations. They even I, when I. see an outrageous article against. somebody I don't like politically, I'm. very tempted to click on it and and have. it tell me, yeah, he's even stupider. than you thought. Or, you know, he this. is a a mistake. You know, we're all uh. subject uh to that, and and we do like.

to form into groups, but, you know, all. of humanity, ideally, is a group. where philanthropically and you know, government generosity, we can think of. ourselves as being part of that as. opposed to a much, you know, our clan or. uh race or nation. Yeah, I think on a. global level, it requires what you are. saying, and on a personal level, it. requires us to almost be.

able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know, have have self-awareness, allow for self-reflection, space for, you know, the things we don't have time. for anymore. You know, I was looking into something called the. third space theory and how in the past. you had your home, you had work, and. then you had church or temple or. community center. And how those three spaces, that third. space was a place you could look back on. home and work and say, "I could treat my. wife a little bit better." or "I could.

have spoken to my colleague a bit. better." And that third space allowed. that time and energy where it was all. about reflecting on how you could. improve. But today we've lost three. spaces into two into one, where we work. from home, live at home, and the screen. is our third space. And so, that lack of. having a physical. body or building that gives you. permission to. step back from your whole life, not play. a role there. And and actually convey what's going on.

in your life, we've lost that. Yeah, that's a shame. Yeah. You know, the the decline of religion is. a a very strong trend. You'd hope. there'd be a modern religion that takes. whatever has put people off and yet. preserves kind of this golden rule and. this okay, at a local community level. we're supposed to help each other. Mhm. If you expect government to figure out. how to solve things, you know, it's too. bureaucratic. The local church-based.

groups, oh, this person needs help, I. have extra time, you know, is way more. effective. And. so we expect too much from government in. a way. So, I hope we can re-energize, you know, perhaps. through a type of religious. modernization or maybe just a community. thing that is maybe spiritual but not. labeled as as religion. That local.

engagement where you see other people. that I think we need more of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Bill, I've got. you for a couple more moments and uh. there's a few things I wanted to ask. you. One was. you talked about how in the book, how. being the smartest person in the room. and that status was something that you. maybe. hid behind and and your insecurities. were hidden behind. And I was wondering. is that something that you've been able. to. put down that guard and and take that.

away as time has moved on. How how were. you able to do that? Yeah, I've mellowed. a little bit. Uh you know, to learn how to work. with people who are intelligent in. different ways. You know, at Microsoft I. had to get marketing and sales people. At the foundation. you know, people who go out in the field. and do heroic work. And so my, you know, sort of single view of okay, math cap. capacity is, you know, this this great. thing. I've. I've mellowed and you know, been able to.

bring in different skill sets. But no, I. I. I started off being pretty bad at that. What were those insecurities that you. were hiding? Well, you you tend to manage other. people the way you manage yourself. And. so when I make a mistake in programming. or math, I'm very tough on myself and. then you know, I'm like, you need to. spend more time. You need to work. harder. And it's kind of a tough love. don't fool yourself. uh thing. And so my early management style worked. for people like me but not as well for.

other people. And so year by year, you. know, I did grow with Microsoft. A lot. of entrepreneurs you know, don't stay as. as CEO and you have to bring in someone. else. I wanted to do that. And so by. bringing in some other people I got. better at that. I would say moving over. to the foundation was another level of. how you you bring in uh different mix of.

talent. And so yeah, I'm trying I'm. still trying. and I'm. I'll be better. a year from now. Well, I was most excited that you said. there's still two more books coming. after this one to talk about the. different areas of your life and I I. really enjoyed this one so much. I'm so. excited for people to read it to get to. know you better to get to know the. people that have changed your life for. the better and allow you to do all the. incredible phenomenal work you do today. and I I honestly am so inspired by the. work you do today and I I really hope.

that I can. be involved in some small way. So I. thank you deeply. Well, thank you. It's. been fantastic. Means the world. Bill, we we end every. episode with a final five. These. questions have to be asked in one. sitting one word to one sentence. maximum. So Bill Gates, these are your final. five. The first question is what is the. best advice you've ever heard or. received? You know, finding what you. really enjoy doing. and hopefully. there's some job that that has that as. opposed to.

you know, what jobs pay well or other. people push you to. If you're doing. something you really enjoy, that's hard. to beat. And you found that early. I was. super lucky. on that, you know, computers were there. right when I needed them. Second question, what is the worst. advice you've ever heard or received? People will tell you not to take risks. and. it's very well-intentioned. but there are contexts, you know, when. you're young.

and like people say, "Okay. it must have been scary to drop out.". Not really. I mean, I could have gone. back. You know, there's no flesh wounds. involved. in in failure. You know, so failures. you know, probably a better teacher and. and more of an okay thing and. I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know, emotional. safety. In many cases that we we've gone too. far. Yeah, did but did dropping out that. at that time feel like a big risk?

No, it didn't. The first time I felt it. was when I was hiring people. who moved their family and they had kids. and I was like, if I can't pay this guy. his check, this is rude, you know, he's. got a real problem and I'm kind of. implicitly promising him, I've got this. thing figured out. So, that scared me. Yeah, was that. there's a scene in The Social Network. where you're on stage and Mark. Zuckerberg's in your. in the auditorium and then they leave. and they say.

the speaker just said the next Bill. Gates could be sitting in this room and. then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates. Is. that true? That is absolutely true. Mark. and I have laughed about that a lot that. our experience at Harvard, dropping out. of Harvard, you know, telling people. that hey, we saw something other people. didn't see. Uh. very very similar. Uh question number three, what would you. say is the most important problem the. smartest people on the planet should be. solving right now? There's many. candidates, you know, making sure we.

don't use nuclear weapons, avoid. bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest, which we're kind of losing that, but I. would say shaping AI has for me. uh risen to the the top of that list. I. we need to do all those, we can't just. skip. you know, the any of those, but this one. is. is going to be a a very big deal in in. the in the next decade. And what would. be your advice to the biggest business.

leaders in the world in regard to that? Well, I don't think you can count on. them. Their competitive framework is to. go full speed and so, only governments. are in a position to say, wait a minute, slow down. You know, for the good stuff. you want them to lower the price and get. it done sooner. And so we can't, although yes, they should be part of the. dialogue and they're humans and citizens. too, but you can't count on them because the. metric for them is to go full speed.

Question number four, what is your. favorite mental health habit? You know, it's a very big deal for me to get time, reading, and and thinking by myself, whether it's on a walk or going driving. When I was CEO of Microsoft, I took two. full weeks, think weeks, one every six. months, where I would just go off by. myself. uh and think, "Okay, is Microsoft on. track? What are the trends?" Towards the.

end, I'd write a memo, which actually uh was kind of valuable. as we navigated the twists and turns, like when the internet comes along or, you know, software's not reliable. enough. You know, I need that time to. think. Even though I love quick thinking, you. know, being in a meeting and spotting a. mistake, most of my good work has come. from the kind of slow thinking, where. I'm off being reflective and maybe.

coming up with some non-obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's. a little bit. my you know, being on the spectrum, I I. need that that refreshment. You know, when I I see my schedule with lots of. social interaction. for a week, then I'll try and make sure. the next week has a little bit less of. that. But, you know, to maintain. creativity, you have to have some calmness and be. not behind. If you feel like you're. behind, like you turn on your email,

like, "Ah!". Uh. "Oh, I'm late." Uh. you know, that that your creativity gets. gets squeezed out one one of the first. things. And does that think week need to. be in nature? Are you away from. everything? Is it Are you simply. thinking? Are you taking books? Are you. journaling? Or is it I'm taking books to. read, but I'm also taking very long. walks. Um on your own just. And just thinking about things. And I. love. I take a tablet of paper and write. things down quite a bit. And you know,

I'm I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking. phone calls. I'm not. browsing the news. You know, the news. can wait. You know, and I'm off by. myself 20. 24 hours that whole time. Uh somebody. can stick some food in. Uh but Uh and. then you know, that's kind of extreme. You know, there's people like Harari who. meditate a kind of an unbelievable. amount. of him. I almost envy. uh him. I don't think I would go that.

far, but we should be more in his. direction than than we are. Yeah, absolutely. Uh and what what's the book. you've gifted most actually? I'm. intrigued because you're such a big. reader. You recommend so many great. books. What's the book you've gifted to. people close to you the most? There's a. Steven Pinker book called Better Angels. of Our Nature. uh that talks about. even though in the short run we see. how tough things are. If we zoom out a. little bit and say, "Okay, 200 years ago.

to be a woman, to be gay, you know, 30% of child children die, you know, lifespan uh. is less than 50 years. You know, that's not saying there's a. guarantee that. those bad things we talked about won't. happen, but people are a little over. wrought and saying, "Okay, you know, this. approach to government is failing. Maybe. we should try something radical like. not you know, being fully democratic.".

I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. here." Yes, we need to feel bad about. the the the things we're not doing, but. we also need to have a perspective. They. the system of scientific inquiry and. democracy. and widening our circle of care, you know, beyond our our family, clan, nation, as as we discover new things and we can. share our resources, that really is.

working. You know, it sounds. uh naive. uh to say that, but. you know, the books that really go. through that uh I I find, you know, guide how I think about the. world. Absolutely. Uh fifth and final. question, if you could create one law. that everyone in the world had to. follow, what would it be? Well, if you. look at all these religious texts, you know, I'd say the the thing they all. eventually come back to is is the golden.

rule, which is to treat people how you. would like to be treated. You know, I. mean, say. that you're about to be born and you. don't know if you're going to be born a. woman or an African This is a a thing. that Warren Buffett taught me. You know, what you get to construct the world. and how fair it is, and then you we will. randomly pick and you will be born in. some place in some way, and. you know, I think the construct that. would guide.

the world you'd want for that. is is very much going back to that. golden rule. Not, "Okay, let's win wars, you know, let's outcompete or, you know, have have more money or resources than. than other people." And so, it's kind of. a it's one of the few universal truths. that. um we we should have that guide our. behavior. I love that, Bill. Thank you. so much for your time on On Purpose. today and genuinely so grateful for your. time and energy. It was thrilling to.

talk to you and I love getting an early. copy of the book and being ahead of the. world on it. So, thank you so much. Well, you know, I've I've loved our. conversation, so look forward to more. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation. with Michelle Obama, where she opens up. on how to stay with your partner when. they're changing and the four check-ins. you should be doing in your. relationship. We also talk about how to. deal with relationships when they're. under stress. If you're going through. something right now with your partner or.

someone you're seeing, this is the. episode for you. No wonder our kids are. struggling. We have a new technology and. we've just taken it in hook, line, and. sinker. And we have to be mindful for. our kids. They'll just be thumbing. through this stuff, you know, their. their minds never sleeping.